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You are here: Home / Open Threads / A Quick Observation

A Quick Observation

by John Cole|  August 28, 20075:21 pm| 87 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

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Something that has gone undiscussed regarding this whole affair is the apparent professionalism of the Minnesota constables. If this had happened in many other jurisdictions, the press would have been tipped off, there would have been a perp walk, etc. I can’t believe it went three months without being uncovered.

Instead, the police here seem to have gone about their business, even with Craig acting like a jerk, and treated Craig like any other citizen caught cruising airport bathrooms.

*** Update ***

Apparently it is a gay thing, so I am not the most naive person on the planet.

*** Update ***

Thank GOD I am not the only one. ( and of course I don’t think being gay is the same as being a pedophile, but I AM relieved I was not the only person on the planet who was unaware how widespread this bathroom cruising thing is.)

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Reader Interactions

87Comments

  1. 1.

    Zifnab

    August 28, 2007 at 5:25 pm

    Before you give too big of a hat-tip to the Idaho police, keep in mind that Craig was a Republican Senator in an intensely Republican state, who almost inevitably had friends in high and low places.

    I would not try this stunt as a Democrat. I would probably avoid the state entirely if I was a minority.

  2. 2.

    Dave

    August 28, 2007 at 5:29 pm

    who almost inevitably had friends in high and low places.

    Had being the key word here. I’m sure the shunning has already begun. Thankfully he can just hop a quick plane flight to San Fran where he can be gay and no one will care.

  3. 3.

    John Cole

    August 28, 2007 at 5:29 pm

    This happened in Minnesota. That is why I used the code words “MINNESOTA CONSTABLES.”

  4. 4.

    Dave

    August 28, 2007 at 5:31 pm

    Dunno if this Onion piece was linked yet.

  5. 5.

    HyperIon

    August 28, 2007 at 5:33 pm

    minnesota nice.

    i miss the state fair.

  6. 6.

    Jake

    August 28, 2007 at 5:34 pm

    If this had happened in many other jurisdictions, the press would have been tipped off, there would have been a perp walk, etc.

    Really? On what do you base that claim? Or put another way, do you think the fact Bob Allen’s adventure hit the press because the cops in Titusville weren’t professional?

  7. 7.

    ukko

    August 28, 2007 at 5:35 pm

    The is just Minnesota Nice, dontcha’know.

  8. 8.

    KCinDC

    August 28, 2007 at 5:36 pm

    Zifnab, the arrest was in Minnesota.

  9. 9.

    Mike

    August 28, 2007 at 5:44 pm

    Not did they let him walk because he’s a senator. Pitfalls deftly avoided on both sides.

  10. 10.

    KCinDC

    August 28, 2007 at 5:53 pm

    I wasn’t surprised about your not knowing the code, John. I didn’t know anything about foot tapping either. I was surprised you’d never heard of gay sex in public restrooms.

  11. 11.

    Bombadil

    August 28, 2007 at 6:02 pm

    Just saw Craig’s statement from earlier today. Can we get a pool going as to the date and time he enters rehab?

  12. 12.

    Zifnab

    August 28, 2007 at 6:03 pm

    Zifnab, the arrest was in Minnesota.

    Sorry. That means virtually nothing to me. All I know about Minnesota is that its up. But not quite as up as Canada.

  13. 13.

    Jake

    August 28, 2007 at 6:04 pm

    Just saw Craig’s statement from earlier today. Can we get a pool going as to the date and time he enters rehab?

    You mean to recover from his awful treatment at the hands of the liberofascist police, the homofascistmafia and the librulmediaconspiracy, right?

  14. 14.

    dslak

    August 28, 2007 at 6:07 pm

    Can we get a pool going as to the date and time he enters rehab?

    I’ll put my money on odds that he finds himself in rehab by 5p.m. Friday.

  15. 15.

    ppGaz

    August 28, 2007 at 6:24 pm

    Look’s as though Zifnab has been smoking those illegals again.

  16. 16.

    Gus

    August 28, 2007 at 6:29 pm

    Zifnab, Minnesota is about as Canadian as it gets in the States. They even say eh in Northern Minnesota.

  17. 17.

    myiq2xu

    August 28, 2007 at 6:35 pm

    Many moons ago I attended a police academy and one of the instructors (vice crimes I believe) stated that restroom stings were dangerous because closeted gays who were getting arrested often panicked because they were afraid of exposure.

    In most criminal cases, the names of arrestees should not be made public, at least not until they are convicted.

    As one defense attorney I knew once put it, the next worst thing to being the victim of a sex crime is to be falsely accused of committing one.

  18. 18.

    Gus

    August 28, 2007 at 6:41 pm

    Hyperion, I’m going to the fair on Monday. I’ll have some Spam curds for you.

  19. 19.

    Tsulagi

    August 28, 2007 at 6:57 pm

    Apparently it is a gay thing, so I am not the most naive person on the planet.

    No you’re not. I was there too.

    God bless you, GOP. I have learned much during your reign in the new millennium. The evil danger to America from the word “French” in any foodstuffs. The certainty that Eve cavorted with playful vegetarian raptors in her garden 6,000 years ago.

    And now, today I know if I absolutely have to use a public shitter, to keep my feet planted flat on the floor and non-moving at all costs so to avoid some family values crinkly ass immediately launching into wide-stance mode. Who knew that tap, tap, tapping was the mating call of the Republican Jack Bauer set?

  20. 20.

    KC

    August 28, 2007 at 7:03 pm

    Hey look, you guys need to lay off the Republican Party. After all, it’s the tough on terrorism, tough on homosexuality, anti-relativist party of morality. It just has a sort of tap tap wave wave attitude about these things, sometimes.

  21. 21.

    DougJ

    August 28, 2007 at 7:14 pm

    God bless you, GOP. I have learned much during your reign in the new millennium.

    Well said.

  22. 22.

    KCinDC

    August 28, 2007 at 7:47 pm

    While what Gus says is true, it’s not necessary to know anything about Minnesota to understand the point of the comments about it, except that Minnesota is not a city in Idaho.

  23. 23.

    JWW

    August 28, 2007 at 8:02 pm

    Hey John,

    Do you never see that your only position in the pleasure palace is regurgitating somebody elses news. I personnally could care less about the story but, that really isn’t the point. You choose what is fitting or to your liking and attempt to spread it as Gospel. You are quite the piece of propaganda work. Why don’t you ever do your own work.

  24. 24.

    Pooh

    August 28, 2007 at 8:02 pm

    It’s entirely possible that there is a Minneapolis or a St. Paul in Idaho, however…

    (OK, maybe not. But there are TWO St. Paul’s in Texas.)

  25. 25.

    Wilfred

    August 28, 2007 at 8:09 pm

    Apologies to Dylan, not Larry:

    Dubya, take this load off of me
    I can’t use it anymore.
    It’s gettin’ hard, too hard for me to pee
    I feel like tappin’ on some guy’s stall.

    Tap, tap, tappin’ on some guy’s stall
    Tap, tap, tappin’ on some guy’s stall
    Tap, tap, tappin’ on some guy’s stall
    Tap, tap, tappin’ on some guy’s stall

    Dubya, take my rod in your hand
    I can’t hold it anymore.
    That big, long thing is comin’, man
    I feel like tapping’ on some guy’s stall.

    repeat chorus

  26. 26.

    JWW

    August 28, 2007 at 8:22 pm

    You express,

    Back, bottom feeder’s you are. If it were your movie, athletic, super or family hero. You would all remain quiet. If it were your mother, father, sister or brother, you would not post. You seem as though you want to defend Gay Rights, but you make BS comments. Oh, I’m sorry, this is not your case, no money to be made for you. So go ahead, make all the BS you can, you are bottom feeders, until you see $$$$ saying please “Can You Help Me”.

  27. 27.

    JWW

    August 28, 2007 at 8:47 pm

    Hey Winnie,

    You made my case, You chase women, I think? But that is not the issue. We are not and never will be as civilized as we are lead to believe, why men or women seek the desire, isn’t for you or I to question. I know, and have worked with a few on both sides. They just happen to do it like, (I like motorcyles, or I like fishing, or I like drinking beer} oh I also like women. That really is beside the point. You or we do what we want to do, seems as though, laws are constantly written that condone it. I’m sure that when the point comes, when it becomes a real inconvenience to your personnal reputation, you will bow, and say, ?????

  28. 28.

    John Cole

    August 28, 2007 at 8:51 pm

    JWW-

    Welcome to the ban list. I think you are the third person to be permanently banned in 5 years. I have temporarily banned people before, but you are insane and I think dangerous.

    Have a nice life, and seek medical attention.

  29. 29.

    rachel

    August 28, 2007 at 9:01 pm

    Darn! I was just th-i-i-i-s close to achieving enlightenment.

  30. 30.

    jake

    August 28, 2007 at 9:04 pm

    Darn! I was just th-i-i-i-s close to achieving enlightenment.

    Let me help you my child:

    What is the sound of one foot tapping?

    From the Book of RepubliKoans

  31. 31.

    Barrasso

    August 28, 2007 at 9:09 pm

    What the hell was that all about JWW? Really I read that three times and I got nothing out of it. It makes Paul L look sensible and well argued though so I assume it must be him incognito. Here in Idaho we don’t have a St. Paul but we do have a Butte, a lovely calapidgious Butte.

  32. 32.

    John S.

    August 28, 2007 at 9:16 pm

    calapidgious Butte

    LOL

    Nice one.

  33. 33.

    rachel

    August 28, 2007 at 9:20 pm

    Calapidgious…

    My two-and-a-half-year-old nephew called buttes “big dirts!”

  34. 34.

    DougJ

    August 28, 2007 at 9:43 pm

    Can we get a pool going as to the date and time he enters rehab?

    Surely it was that overpriced airport liquor that made him do it. Put enough 8 dollar Heinekens in your body and see how gay you feel.

  35. 35.

    Punchy

    August 28, 2007 at 10:23 pm

    From Johnnie’s link:

    Perhaps men so inclined wouldn’t take the chance on grabbing a boy in such an enclosed space–one from which such a predator would not have an easy avenue of escape–but is that a chance which you would take with your son? And even if there are no child predators present, seeing/hearing two men boinking in the restroom is not something which I would want my son to have to experience.

    Why the hell do so many ignorant people equate homosexuality with pedophilia? And why is it only this way for gay males?

    Is this why the Jesus Freaks fear Teh Gay? B/c they assume they’ll rape their children?

    God DAMN that’s some serious fucking ignorance.

  36. 36.

    KCinDC

    August 28, 2007 at 10:32 pm

    John, are you sure you want to be associating yourself with that Baldilocks post? Sure, restroom sex is distasteful, illegal, and should be discouraged, but I assume you’re able to distinguish it from being a child predator.

  37. 37.

    Phil

    August 28, 2007 at 10:33 pm

    John’s having some more fun again today. He’s still a conservative but he only likes to point out that conservatives do bad things now. Yawn.

    …Anyway, here’s yet another example of Name That Party:

    http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=9676

    Can you guess what party Mr. Ford is in? And notice the date…why that’s today!

    Now John, let’s make this slow and simple for you to understand. The reference to this is not a defense of Larry Craig. Its not a condemnation of Larry Craig. It actually has nothing to do whatsoever with Larry Craig! The point was to show passive media bias, and this is yet another example of it, and it happened again today. Literally one day after we just discussing it.

    Its also what Allah and Protein Wisdom were alluding to in their post before you went into conniptions about how the NON-”conservatives with a conscious” crowd thinks bathroom stall sex is just fine and dandy as long as Republicans are doing it. Nevermind that they said nothing of the sort. I understand the “conservatives with a conscious” crowd pays not attention to these matters. You’ve got a conscious John. And you go with what feels right, which is certainly better than what we think, since your conscious is bigger than mine (I, after all, do not have a conscious as I’ve stopped reading Andrew Sullivan).

    After all, Michelle Malkin is an evil whore and since SHE, for instance, thinks that the Scott Beauchamp story was handled improperly by TNR and requires an apology from them, ANYONE who thinks this way is not welcome in the “conservatives with a conscious” crowd. Because, well, they have consciouses. And evil whores don’t.

    John, I don’t really care about the change of your politics. George Will was NEVER in favor of the Iraq War and I consider him the best conservative columnist in the nation. Its your lectures. Nobody like lectures John. I know we’re supposed to confess our sins and say the Iraq war is horrible and we should be ashamed of ourselves, but guess what?

    Fuck you John, we think it was the right thing to do and we’re even even winning it now.

    I know you’re invested in defeat at this point John. I know we just HAVE to lose to repent so it will never happen again. But the surge is showing strong military progress and slow but gathering political progress. I know the left has already written the war off long ago (they’re invested heavily in its defeat now and no one, not even liberals who are bad at math, likes bad investments) and I’m just silly and absolutely ridiculous for saying this but what if we WIN John?

    What if? Where does the “conservatives with a conscious” crowd go from there?

  38. 38.

    Steve

    August 28, 2007 at 10:41 pm

    A good friend’s cousin got killed in Iraq today and I have to listen to this idiot babbling “what if we win?” Just fuck you and all your “rooting for defeat” garbage. In a just world it would have been you instead.

  39. 39.

    DougJ

    August 28, 2007 at 10:44 pm

    Phil, give it a rest. You combine the brevity of Al Maviva with the insight of Stormy. You’re just proving everything John says about you.

    Not trying to be a jerk here, but you’re not accomplishing anything.

  40. 40.

    baldilocks

    August 28, 2007 at 10:46 pm

    Punchy says that I equated homosexuals with child predators even as he quoted me thusly:

    And even if there are no child predators present [in a situation where two men are having sex in a public restroom]…

    If I thought that all homosexuals were child predators, describing a situation in which two men were having sex but in which no child predators were present would not have made sense.

  41. 41.

    DougJ

    August 28, 2007 at 10:47 pm

    Okay, I’ll bite. You write:

    George Will was NEVER in favor of the Iraq War and I consider him the best conservative columnist in the nation.

    Take out the profanity and the frequent references to Jessica Alba and Steely McBeam, and John sounds a fair amount like George Will. So what’s your point?

  42. 42.

    John Cole

    August 28, 2007 at 10:52 pm

    I really don’t know where this ‘conservative of conscience’ stuff comes from (other than people who dislike me making it up).

    To demonstrate how stupid it is, I am going to tell Phil to go fuck himself and not feel even slightly bad about it. So much for my conscience.

  43. 43.

    The Other Steve

    August 28, 2007 at 10:54 pm

    It’s entirely possible that there is a Minneapolis or a St. Paul in Idaho, however…

    That’s possible, but does St. Paul in Idaho(or Texas) have these stellar members of the community?

    Look and weep, and stay out of Frogtown.

  44. 44.

    KCinDC

    August 28, 2007 at 10:57 pm

    Baldilocks, what made you bring up child predators in the first place then?

  45. 45.

    The Other Steve

    August 28, 2007 at 10:58 pm

    Fuck you John, we think it was the right thing to do and we’re even even winning it now.

    Whaaaa! Someone get this baby a lollipop so he’ll stop crying.

  46. 46.

    Phil

    August 28, 2007 at 10:58 pm

    “A good friend’s cousin got killed in Iraq today and I have to listen to this idiot babbling “what if we win?” Just fuck you and all your “rooting for defeat” garbage. In a just world it would have been you instead.”

    I’m sorry to hear about your friend’s loss but I make no apologies for my comment sir. The liberals have written the narrative and it must be completed thus. Take Brian Baird, the Democratic representative from Washington.

    http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=922

    Baird voted against the war and the surge. Then he went to Iraq and now thinks we should stay because of the progress being made. Your party is now giving him the lashes. Why of course, it doesn’t fit the narrative.

    So again, what happens if we win? The liberals can be forgiven as they’ve always been hopelessly naive (did someone say Jimmy Carter?). But the “conservatives with a conscious crowd”? Where do they go?

    A couple years ago, John Cole would have been condemning the war while at least condemning the Democratic party activists who are lashing Baird for having the audacity to vote HIS conscious (woops, there’s that word again!). But now that he’s a “conservative of conscious”, there’s no need. The war is lost and that’s that. If you disagree, you have no soul. And you’re a Bush lackey and blah blah blah.

    Well you’ve certainly dug yourself in John. Hope that works out for ya.

    Actually I take that back. I hope we win. But you’re welcome to come back to the “lacking conscious” big tent either way when it’s all said and done.

  47. 47.

    The Other Steve

    August 28, 2007 at 11:00 pm

    Baldilocks appears to be a bed-wetter. He’s afraid of the child predators hiding behind the toilets.

  48. 48.

    Balloon Drizzle

    August 28, 2007 at 11:07 pm

    So, John Cole and Matt Sanchez are both taking paychecks from the same people. Sure John, that PJMedia money might cover the car payment, but is it really worth being a fig leaf for neo-con propagandists?

    Anyways, as a PJM blogger, any idea where that capital your checks are cut from came from? Or, do you not really care?

  49. 49.

    baldilocks

    August 28, 2007 at 11:08 pm

    In my post, I specified that I didn’t know that this sort of thing went on in airports–presumably with more safe restrooms that the average city park. I began to think about what would happen if I had, say, an eight year old son who had to go. In the post, I talked about my possible misgivings under the conditions of both the presence and absence of child predators.

    If a situation could possibly exist in which my theoretical 8 year old daughter had to enter a place without me and in which there was a high probability of men and women having sex, I’d be worried about both predators and the child viewing such things also.

    It isn’t as though a lot of little girls aren’t turning up raped and dead at the hand of those who aren’t homosexuals.

  50. 50.

    Phil

    August 28, 2007 at 11:11 pm

    “I really don’t know where this ‘conservative of conscience’ stuff comes from (other than people who dislike me making it up).

    To demonstrate how stupid it is, I am going to tell Phil to go fuck himself and not feel even slightly bad about it. So much for my conscience.”

    John, come on, you know I’m just fucking with you (see I can do the profanity thing to). The phrase originates from the piety and self-assuredness of Andrew Sullivan mostly but its been finding its way to the likes of you and Belgravia Dispatch as well. Its the “Well since I changed MY mind and saw how wrong I was about this whole Iraq misadventure, YOU must too! And if you don’t, I will destroy you with words!” You can disagree without being disagreeable. (see Will, George) But you’ve chosen the pious route and now that the war appears winnable after all, you’ve put yourself in a mighty odd situation.

    Not that I really care, I’m not keeping score. But there does seem to be a whole lot of the “I just HAVE to be right!” going on from the left blogosphere and the Andy Sullivan crowd.

    Lots of time I believe something but for the sake of the country hope that I’m wrong. It’s become fairly obvious that the left believes the war is lost and doesn’t really give a shit what the consequences of failure would mean for the country. To them, politics is a religion and they see it through that prism. But liberals are naive so we can forgive them because we know them to be naive. The “conservatives with a conscious” crowd (you among them) should really know better. But you’ve decided to basically demand defeat and withdrawal, regardless of the situation on the ground. Baird decided to vote his conscious, but still must be destroyed. With words of course.

    I guess that’s the way the narrative is supposed to go for the Sullivan crowd now. But what if it doesn’t? Where does it go from there?

  51. 51.

    baldilocks

    August 28, 2007 at 11:12 pm

    Baldilocks appears to be a bed-wetter. He’s afraid of the child predators hiding behind the toilets.

    Wrong–in more ways than one.

  52. 52.

    John Cole

    August 28, 2007 at 11:13 pm

    Anyways, as a PJM blogger, any idea where that capital your checks are cut from came from? Or, do you not really care?

    I think we rob poor people and distribute it after we have our weekly Iran invasion planning meetings.

    A couple years ago, John Cole would have been condemning the war while at least condemning the Democratic party activists who are lashing Baird for having the audacity to vote HIS conscious (woops, there’s that word again!). But now that he’s a “conservative of conscious”, there’s no need. The war is lost and that’s that. If you disagree, you have no soul. And you’re a Bush lackey and blah blah blah.

    Project much?

    Actually, I applaud Baird sticking to his guns. Good for him. Now how does this mean I am a “conservative with conscience” but have no ‘conscious’ again?

  53. 53.

    John Cole

    August 28, 2007 at 11:22 pm

    Wrong—in more ways than one.

    Heh.

    Alright, I am off to bed. Hopefully this will all simmer down overnight and more people will start to come of the opinion that while what Craig did was wrong, he has already paid the price. There is no need for him to resign, and he has paid a steep price for a minor transgression as it is.

    Living closeted and having to fulfill your deepest urges with anonymous trysts may be criminal if carried out and caught, but more important than that, it is just sad. I normally do not feel bad for politicians, and I have linked to a lot of people taking pot shots at Craig, but anyone who doesn’t feel bad for the guy and his family just isn’t human.

  54. 54.

    maf54

    August 28, 2007 at 11:25 pm

    Phil, give it a rest. You combine the brevity of Al Maviva with the insight of Stormy. You’re just proving everything John says about you.

    I don’t see anything about rescue balloons.

  55. 55.

    KCinDC

    August 28, 2007 at 11:30 pm

    It’s become fairly obvious that the left believes the war is lost and doesn’t really give a shit what the consequences of failure would mean for the country.

    No, being in the reality-based community (according to some Bushite), we understand that the magnitude of the consequences of failure has no effect on the probability of winning. Just saying “We have to win!” is not a plan for victory, and at this stage even talking about “victory” is a sign of serious delusion or drastic devaluation of the term.

  56. 56.

    Balloon Drizzle

    August 28, 2007 at 11:31 pm

    I think we rob poor people and distribute it after we have our weekly Iran invasion planning meetings.

    I’ll take that to mean that you don’t care.

    You know, there’s an ethical difference between say, taking money from Roger Ailes because you prepared and served his dinner and say, taking money from Rev. Moon to serve as the ‘balanced’ contrarian lending ‘respectability’ to a virtual NY Post full of fascists.

    One day, you’ll hopefully be older and wiser and regret the decision to pander your ethics for a professional home theater installation. Or not. After all, you did vote for Bush twice.

  57. 57.

    Phil

    August 28, 2007 at 11:33 pm

    “Project much?

    Actually, I applaud Baird sticking to his guns. Good for him. Now how does this mean I am a “conservative with conscience” but have no ‘conscious’ again?”

    I think you’re missing the point John. I don’t hate you for changing your position. I don’t even dislike you for changing your position. If its honest and sincere, then good for you. But people who still support the war should be given the presumption that their convictions are honest and sincere too. We don’t expect it from the liberals of course – as they say, “conservatives think liberals are stupid, liberals think conservatives are evil”. But we do expect it from the likes of you and Andrew Sullivan.

    And Sullivan and you to a lesser extent have instead given us nothing but piety. You’ve seen the light, so MUST we. But what if you and Sullivan are wrong John? Is that not within the realm of possibility? I’m not keeping score John. I won’t be back to mock you or give myself a pat on the back if Iraq became some model democracy in Iraq (at this point, probably too far fetched). But I think a decent outcome is still attainable and apparently so do people like Baird.

  58. 58.

    Pb

    August 29, 2007 at 1:31 am

    Phil,

    people who still support the war should be given the presumption that their convictions are honest and sincere too

    Some people probably should be, but others manifestly don’t deserve that presumption, given their statements over the past 5 years or so. At best, I’d say… honest, sincere, and never to be taken seriously again. Seriously, Phil, make your prediction. How wonderful do you think it’s going to be, and when. When do the flower and candy distribution programs start gearing up again. How many deadly Weapons of Mass Destruction will be found. How much money will we be swimming in once those oil revenues start flowing in. How many Democracies will be blooming throughout the region. Let us know, we’ll write it down, and then let you know when you’re wrong. Just like this:

    “An elite team of officers advising US commander General David Petraeus in Baghdad has concluded the US has six months to win the war in Iraq – or face a Vietnam-style collapse in political and public support that could force the military into a hasty retreat.” — six months ago

  59. 59.

    Chuck Butcher

    August 29, 2007 at 1:34 am

    Phil,
    the thing is, a lot of people have died, are dying, and will die because you and George are what you are. I’d kind of like to know what it is exactly that we’re winning this week, WMDs, international terrorism, democratic Iraq, oil, what is it? A war? Your president just brought up Viet Nam, maybe you know something happened there awhile back? What exactly is a decent outcome? A theocratic Shiite Iraq? Oh well, 28% of America can’t be all wrong…

  60. 60.

    Oregonian

    August 29, 2007 at 2:22 am

    Aside from the obvious humor value (and the delicious schadenfreude), the main benefit of the Larry Craig story is to warn the more naive members of the general public about what sometimes goes on in men’s restrooms.

    I was one of those clueless people about 8 or 10 years ago when I was working at Portland State University. I was doing some research up on the nearly deserted top floor of the university library one day and I stopped into the men’s restroom for the usual (non-sexual) purpose.

    The first thing I noticed was that the walls between the stalls were all a little less than 5 feet high and there were big gaps around the doors. It didn’t seem very private. The next thing I noticed, when I got to a toilet, was that unknown people had punched or drilled several waist-high, one-inch holes through the metal walls between the stalls. From the looks of it, the holes had been made with pocket knives or screwdrivers or something, forming jagged little circles with sharp edges. There are, of course, many innocent explanations for such holes. You could, say, pass a candle or a cucumber to the guy sitting in the next stall. So I still tried to quiet my growing unease.

    But then, just when I’d dropped my pants and was getting down to business, a man rushed into the bathroom, got into the stall next to mine, and proceeded to stand there peering over the wall and watching me with an eager expression.

    At that point, I decided that this restroom was probably not the right place for me and I pulled up my pants and quickly left. As I departed, I noticed that – in an otherwise nearly empty library – there seemed to be several men sitting idly at desks near the bathroom door as if they were staking out the spot and waiting for something. After that, I think I always went across the street and used the single-user restroom at Starbucks. And I was always really careful to lock the door.

  61. 61.

    TenguPhule

    August 29, 2007 at 2:22 am

    But people who still support the war should be given the presumption that their convictions are honest and sincere too. We don’t expect it from the liberals of course

    And that is why you don’t get the benefit of the doubt.

    In the face of all evidence, you insist that the ponies are just around the corner. Well here we are, another thousand dead Americans later and you’re still eager to kill some more.

    I won’t be back to mock you or give myself a pat on the back if Iraq became some model democracy in Iraq

    But will you kneel down and give Foley a Blowjob when Iraq goes to hell in a handbasket? That’s the real test of conservative belief, now isn’t it.

  62. 62.

    Secular Humanist Shaman..

    August 29, 2007 at 2:41 am

    It’s become fairly obvious that the left believes the war is lost and doesn’t really give a shit what the consequences of failure would mean for the country.

    I keep hearing about “consequences of failure” but no one ever says just exactly what those consequences might be.

    Who would you trust to make predictions about the consequences of failure in Iraq? Those who had a passing knowledge of the history of the region and were correct in the beginning when they predicted a disaster, or those who have been consistently wrong Pollyannas, Friedman Unit after Friedman Unit?

    Iraq is Russia and China’s Afghanistan, they are gleefully watching us futilely spend our blood and treasure there and will move into the vacuum that the incredible loss of American influence will create.

    The longer we stay and the more blood and treasure we waste, the greater the vacuum will be.

  63. 63.

    TenguPhule

    August 29, 2007 at 2:47 am

    So again, what happens if we win?

    Translated Phil: What happens if magical ponies being candy and flowers to Iraq?

    Define winning. Democracy? Dead in the Water. Security? A sick joke. Regional Stability? For the Blackmarket perhaps. Oil? Anti-terrorism? By any objective measure Iraq is long past throwing good money and lives after bad. You can wish for ponies all you want, but please do so with your own life on the line rather then someone else’s.

    But the surge is showing strong military progress and slow but gathering political progress.

    Only if you believe propaganda…and are a complete moron.

    Or is that an insult to complete morons?

    It’s become fairly obvious that the left Phil believes the war is lost a videogame and doesn’t really give a shit what the consequences of failure would mean for the country. IEDs to human bodies

    Fixed. The ‘Left’ pointed out Iraq was a stupid idea. The ‘Left’ pointed out Bush’s people were shortchanging the military on body armor, armored vehicles, pay, healthcare and time off to recover from combat operations. The Left has been right on Iraq and people like Phil were not.

    The ‘Left’ has been screaming for a long time about the damage to the country being done by this war and what the consquences of failure would be.

    And very serious people like Phil ignored them and belittled them and now are trying to dump the blame on them because its easier then accepting responsibilty for the fuckups that the Right made.

    To Republicans, politics is a religion and they see it through that prism.

    Fixed.

    But liberals are naive so we can forgive them because we know them to be naive.

    And so I defend Phil’s right to be an asshole, because that’s one of the necessary evils of democracy. That Phil is completely naive about reality is truly to be pitied, but that is why people like Phil must be kept in the minority where they can be allowed to speak and are easily ignored.

  64. 64.

    rachel

    August 29, 2007 at 4:40 am

    …that is why people like Phil must be kept in the minority where they can be allowed to speak and are easily ignored.

    Which looks likely to happen, thanks to the Bushites.

  65. 65.

    Leader Desslok

    August 29, 2007 at 4:50 am

    George Micheal gets respect from me for standing some reporter about people criticising his lifestyle. If people want to get freaky in public, big deal. It’s not like they were humping in plain view or whatever.

    People I personally know have fucked in darkened movie theatres, closets of university buildings, libraries and parking garages. People like to fuck. Get over it.

    And this whole “we must protect the children” crap is so tired. If we really wanted to protect kids from pedophiles we’d close all the churches and shut down the Boy Scouts.

    Just sayin’

  66. 66.

    myiq2xu

    August 29, 2007 at 6:21 am

    Craig didn’t need a lawyer, he coulda beat it himself.

    Iffen he done that, he never woulda got busted.

  67. 67.

    myiq2xu

    August 29, 2007 at 6:40 am

    Here’s the big difference between wingnuts and DFH’s:

    Wingnuts would rather win than be right, us DFH’s would rather be right than win.

    Winning: Getting your way, persuading others, by any means necessary, including dishonesty or coercion, to agree (or pretend to agree) with you.

    Being Right: Discerning the truth, making correct judgments and predictions, following the “moral” path.

    Come to think of it, that’s the big difference between my ex-girlfriend and me too.

  68. 68.

    jake

    August 29, 2007 at 6:41 am

    I normally do not feel bad for politicians, and I have linked to a lot of people taking pot shots at Craig, but anyone who doesn’t feel bad for the guy and his family just isn’t human.

    Let’s see, Craig has taken steps to make sure gays and lesbians aren’t protected from discrimination in the workplace, aren’t afforded federal protection from hate crimes and can’t get married and thereby have to go through seven flavors of bullshit if, for example, one of them winds up in the ICU and the hospital staff decides to be dicks about the family members only rule.

    But he gets caught misbehaving in a toilet and we have to feel sorry for him because he’s whining.

    But we’re not human if we don’t feel bad for Craig.

    You’ll have to excuse me John, I’m too busy feeling bad for all the families he’s helped fuck over because he’s a twisted fuck. He supported homophobia, he benefited from homophobia and now homophobia is biting him in the arse.

    Hoo-Fucking-Rah!

  69. 69.

    Nikki

    August 29, 2007 at 6:54 am

    You’ll have to excuse me John, I’m too busy feeling bad for all the families he’s helped fuck over because he’s a twisted fuck. He supported homophobia, he benefited from homophobia and now homophobia is biting him in the arse.

    Add my amens to this as well. He pled guilty more than two weeks ago. He had plenty of time to get a lawyer and fight this. It’s only now that the news comes out and his fellow party members are calling for his head that he decides he’s the innocent party so egregiously coerced into a guilty plea. The bastard set him up!

    I’ll save my sympathy for those who deserve it, thank you.

  70. 70.

    myiq2xu

    August 29, 2007 at 7:06 am

    But people who still support the war should be given the presumption that their convictions are honest and sincere too.

    And Sullivan and you to a lesser extent have instead given us nothing but piety. You’ve seen the light, so MUST we. But what if you and Sullivan are wrong John? Is that not within the realm of possibility?

    Phil, you want those of us opposed to the war to prove we are right. This is a misunderestimation of the situation.

    In the law we have a thing called the “burden of proof.” The party with the burden must submit evidence to prove some fact or it is presumed to not be true.

    I would assert that the burden of proof for us to go to war is on the advocates of war and should be at least “clear and convincing” if not “beyond a reasonable doubt.”

    But we are already at war. In that we are not immediately threatened and none of our territory is occupied by a foreign invader, I would assert that the burden of proof is upon the war pigs hawks to show by clear and convincing evidence that the war is indeed winnable and to also show by at least a preponderance of the evidence (slightly more than half) that we are employing the correct strategery to win it.

    In other words, we don’t have to prove shit, you do.

  71. 71.

    rachel

    August 29, 2007 at 7:16 am

    But no, we just get: “Heh-heh, that was the wrong thing to do. What can we do about this situation we’ve FUBARed now? Some more of what got us here in the first place seems like a good idea to us.” Rinse, repeat.

  72. 72.

    grumpy realist

    August 29, 2007 at 7:28 am

    Those who advocate for the war at present should a) donate as many funds as are needed to pay for it, b) join the military and start fighting themselves.

    Look, Phil–we’ve heard this “flowers and candy around the corner” for, oh, how many years has it been now? From the same crowd predicting imminent victory every six months. And each time you’ve been wrong.

    If I had a CEO who was running a company and for the last six years he had managed to mispredict every single damn financial target, cash flow projection, sales target, size of market, etc. while squandering thousands of times the amount of money he had originally quoted me was “necessary to get the company up and running”–am I, as a VC, going to even listen to this guy when he comes by, hat in hand, asking for yet another 100 million dollars? Forget it–it is to make a horse to laugh.

    So given the abysmal track record of the War Supporters, why should anyone listen to any more of their predictions?

    We’re not “believing in failure” except saying that looking at THIS crowd’s track record, it’s a pretty near damn certainty.

  73. 73.

    grumpy realist

    August 29, 2007 at 7:39 am

    OT, but has anyone seen the latest editorial in the Financial Times about Gonzo’s departure?

    “…Yet to the end, President George W. Bush seemed blithely unaware of Mr. Gonzales’ limitations, calling him “a man of integrity, decency and principle” who was “impeded from doing important work as his good name was dragged through tthe mud for political reasons”. One can only hope Mr. Bush was insincere, wishing to show kindness to a humiliated friend. If those remarks really do express the president’s understanding of the matter, his incapacity to learn from mistakes is indeed boundless.”

    Ouch!

  74. 74.

    metalgrid

    August 29, 2007 at 8:05 am

    But he gets caught misbehaving in a toilet and we have to feel sorry for him because he’s whining.

    Actually jake, we feel sorry for him because cruising for sex (gay or hetero) in public is not a crime – just ask the Baptist pastor guy who was arrested a while ago for offering to blow an undercover police officer – he was arrested but the state lost in court since no monetary exchange was offered for the services proposed.

    It’s a double standard where hetero kids get to fuck in their cars and just get away with warnings from the cops while any homo who does the same would get their name and activites publicised to the community due to the arrest with the resulting public humiliation – iirc there has been more than one suicide due to such actions actually publicized in the gay media.

    So as much as it amuses me that Widestance Craig got busted, I don’t think the police had a case to bust him for disorderly conduct for cruising. The policeman jumped the gun – he should have at least waiting till Craig whipped it out before arresting him.

    I’m just surprised all the gay rights groups are going woohoo instead of seeing the police actions as setting very bad precedent and offering to take them to court over it.

  75. 75.

    Punchy

    August 29, 2007 at 8:30 am

    More choice quotes from Baldi and her ilk:

    Not all homosexuals are pedophiles, but almost all pedophiles are homosexuals

    No link, no explanation, no proof. Surprise.

    Perhaps I’m a bit sheltered, but if I had a son between the ages of six and eleven–too old to go into the ladies’ room with me but not yet large enough to defend himself against an aggressive adult–I probably wouldn’t be.

    Because gay men are infamous for overpowering young boys in restrooms. Happened three times at Denny’s yesterday.

    When did it become dangerous to send older boys into airport bathrooms by themselves?

    Again, homosexuality = aggressive pedophilia. You’re just an ignorant homophobe. I hope you can come to terms of this.

  76. 76.

    baldilocks

    August 29, 2007 at 9:03 am

    Now Punchy is misrepresenting things. One of my commenters said the first quote. I countered with that fact that it seems to me that more little girls are being raped and killed than are boys. But Punchy leaves that out and leaves out the context surrounding the second because Punchy doesn’t want to admit that he made a reading and/or logic error last night in summing up the “no child predators present” quote. Therefore, Punchy’s pride leads him to keep marching down the same erroneous path with no turn back.

    Sad, really.

  77. 77.

    The Other Steve

    August 29, 2007 at 9:06 am

    Wrong—in more ways than one.

    How can you say that, given…

    I began to think about what would happen if I had, say, an eight year old son who had to go. In the post, I talked about my possible misgivings under the conditions of both the presence and absence of child predators.

    That’s what bed-wetters do. Sit around imaginging fearful things.

    Your post was pretty damn moronic. I especially liked the “Why won’t anybody do anything about this!!!! WHAAAAA!!!!” shrillness.

    Which was funny, considering the guy was busted as part of a sting operation.

  78. 78.

    The Other Steve

    August 29, 2007 at 9:09 am

    Now Punchy is misrepresenting things

    I watched “Walking Tall” last night starring The Rock. Came from my netflix stream of movies. Parts of it were pretty cool, but I didn’t much care for the Johnny Knoxville character. Personally I blame the pedophiles for this.

  79. 79.

    Punchy

    August 29, 2007 at 9:11 am

    Therefore, Punchy’s pride leads him to keep marching down the same erroneous path with no turn back.

    Yes or no– are you denying you wrote the last two quotes? If you did write them, and you cannot see that you are EXPLICITLY associating gay men not just with pedophilia, but with an aggressive, attack (rape?) mentality, then you’re beyond hope.

    WTF are you talking about “no predators present”?? You made it clear that young boys wouldn’t be safe in a restroom. Please explain why, if gay men aren’t pedophiles, as you’re trying to now backpeddle and claim.

  80. 80.

    The Other Steve

    August 29, 2007 at 9:14 am

    BTW, I have to agree with John Cole. This Larry Craig guy is just sad. I watched some video of him now, hearing him speak. The guy is so obviously a confused gay man, and his ardent anti-gay stance is lashing out in confusion. We’ve seen the type before.

    Perhaps this episode will result in him coming to terms with who he is. That’s good, yes?

  81. 81.

    lou

    August 29, 2007 at 9:21 am

    “Not all homosexuals are pedophiles, but almost all pedophiles are homosexuals”

    Actually, pedophiles are on average, white, married males with two kids. Child molesters often molest both girls and boys — though girls usually get the brunt of it. But it always seems people get more hysterical about boys getting molested than girls unless the girl ends up dead. why is that?

    A gay adult male is no more likely to be attracted by a 10-year-old boy than a straight adult male to a 10 year-old girl.

    PS re: this fear that molesters are lurking in public bathrooms — How prevalent is that crime? Wouldn’t we see stories on teevee warning us solemnly not to let our 8 year old go in the bathroom by himself?

  82. 82.

    Face

    August 29, 2007 at 9:22 am

    Perhaps this episode will result in him coming to terms with who he is. That’s good, yes?

    As a politician in dark, dark red Idaho, hell no.

  83. 83.

    Pb

    August 29, 2007 at 9:38 am

    I think baldilocks might have been trying to make a decent point somewhere in there, but it was hidden by a confused muddle of seemingly bigoted and uninformed nonsense. In retrospect, I’m not that surprised, given her proud ignorance regarding the validity of conventional statistical polls, and seeming reliance on ideological bias instead. Incidentally, this relates to another reason why some religious conservatives read less books–why bother reading when you already have the answers, or aren’t at all interested in finding them? If it’s in the Bible, why waste so much time with textbooks? On the other hand, if you’re actually intellectually curious and/or searching for answers elsewhere, odds are, you’ll read a wider selection of material.

  84. 84.

    Face

    August 29, 2007 at 9:52 am

    In retrospect, I’m not that surprised, given her proud ignorance regarding the validity of conventional statistical polls,

    When the only defense of your questioning of a poll is to blindly link to a seemingly random Wiki page in the hopes it says something supportive (note: it doesn’t), your cred is zilch.

    Can we re-moniker her “Baldilacks”?

  85. 85.

    KCinDC

    August 29, 2007 at 10:18 am

    Well, Punchy, it was underhanded to use a quote from one of her commenters (someone she disagreed with) to attack her. I’m sure John doesn’t want to be held responsible for all the comments on his site.

    The rest of what you said I agree with, so it would have been better to leave that first one off.

  86. 86.

    Jake

    August 29, 2007 at 10:44 am

    I’m just surprised all the gay rights groups are going woohoo instead of seeing the police actions as setting very bad precedent and offering to take them to court over it.

    You’re assuming: 1. Gay rights groups support anonymous sex in public. 2. Gay rights groups are stupid enough to defend someone who has made persecuted them.

    As for Lantham, he had to admit that he did hit on the cop (he originally claimed he invited him up for a little prayer session) to beat the rap. I give him a little more credit than Craig because he was smart enough to hire a good lawyer right away and brave enough to say “Yep, I tried to get a BJ from a guy.” Craig is still trying to straddle the line. He’s not gay, he’s not guilty of disorderly conduct, he’s being persecuted, boo hoo.

    But in case I’m not being clear: If Craig, Allen, Latham, Haggard etc, etc. didn’t make a big stinking deal about my behaviour, I wouldn’t make a big stinking deal about theirs. Get it?

    (OK, the anonymous sex part? That’s still dangerous and stupid regardless of the gonads involved. I hope these shit heads are double wrapping.)

  87. 87.

    metalgrid

    August 29, 2007 at 1:25 pm

    You’re assuming: 1. Gay rights groups support anonymous sex in public.

    Umm no, I’m assuming gay rights groups support the rights of people to solicit sex/hookups/dates from people of the same gender around them in public without worrying about police arresting them on the chance that soliciting sex = performing sex in public.

    Just from a civil liberties point of view, this is a very dangerous path to cheer the police on or has everyone forgotten the past when homos were getting arrested for even dancing with each other at clubs, not to mention triggering Stonewall?

    2. Gay rights groups are stupid enough to defend someone who has made persecuted them.

    That was never an assumption I made.

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