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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Open Thread

Open Thread

by Tim F|  September 3, 200711:05 am| 108 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

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I’m Back.

The view from Saturday:

cairn

Can’t say that I missed politics much.

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Reader Interactions

108Comments

  1. 1.

    Redleg

    September 3, 2007 at 11:09 am

    Nice photo. What is the location?

  2. 2.

    Tim F.

    September 3, 2007 at 11:11 am

    What is the location?

    About 3,400 feet above Telluride, CO. The trail is called Sneffels High Line.

  3. 3.

    Thymezone

    September 3, 2007 at 11:19 am

    Oh give me land, lots of land under starry skies above
    Don’t fence me in
    Let me ride through the wide open country that I love
    Don’t fence me in
    Let me be by myself in the evening breeze
    Listen to the murmur of the cottonwood trees
    Send me off forever but I ask you please
    Don’t fence me in

    Just turn me loose
    Let me straddle my old saddle underneath the Western skies
    On my cayuse
    Let me wander over yonder ’til I see the mountains rise
    I want to ride to the ridge where the West commences
    Gaze about the moon until I lose my senses
    Can’t look at hobbles and I can’t stand fences
    Don’t fence me in

    Just turn me loose
    Let me straddle my old saddle underneath the Western skies
    On my cayuse
    Let me wander over yonder ’til I see the mountains rise
    I want to ride to the ridge where the West commences
    Gaze about the moon until I lose my senses
    Can’t look at hobbles and I can’t stand fences
    Don’t fence me in

    It’s why those of us who live in the West, prefer to live in the West.

    The wide open spaces, and the certain feeling that the people crowded into the Eastern half of the country are basically crazy.

  4. 4.

    demimondian

    September 3, 2007 at 11:34 am

    OH, TZ, there’s a much better song about the wide spaces of the West, though…

    Along the trail you’ll find me lopin’
    Where the spaces are wide open,
    In the land of the old A.E.C. (yea-hah!)
    Where the scenery’s attractive,
    And the air is radioactive,
    Oh, the wild west is where I wanna be.

    Mid the sagebrush and the cactus,
    I’ll watch the fellas practice
    Droppin’ bombs through the clean desert breeze.
    I’ll have on my sombrero,
    And of course I’ll wear a pair o’
    Levis over my lead B.V.D.’s.

    Ah will leave the city’s rush,
    Leave the fancy and the plush,
    Leave the snow and leave the slush
    And the crowds.
    Ah will seek the desert’s hush,
    Where the scenery is lush,
    How I long to see the mush-
    room clouds.

    ‘Mid the yuccas and the thistles
    I’ll watch the guided missiles,
    While the old F.B.I. watches me. (yea-hah!)
    Yes, I’ll soon make my appearance
    (Soon as I can get my clearance),
    ‘Cause the wild west is where I wanna be.

  5. 5.

    Thymezone

    September 3, 2007 at 12:10 pm

    there’s a much better song

    Yes, if by “better” you mean that your lyric, which sounds like it was written by a bunch of stoners, is preferable to the charming song written by Crosby with a melody that is probably recognizeable to every American over 40 and which evokes the kind of peaceful scene depicted in Tim’s picture…..

    Yeah, it’s “better.” Sure. In the same sense that you are “better” at this than I am.

  6. 6.

    Punchy

    September 3, 2007 at 12:24 pm

    Tim went hiking with TanKKKredo? WTF?

  7. 7.

    demimondian

    September 3, 2007 at 12:36 pm

    On the contrary, TZ — my song is better in both a literary and a historical sense. In particular, it better expresses the Federal teat upon which we in the West suckle so avidly, as well as the paranoid delusions which underlie our Eastern-funded libertarianism.

    But things which remind people of the lies they’ve built their worlds around tend to be suppressed.

  8. 8.

    ThymeZone

    September 3, 2007 at 12:47 pm

    In particular, it better expresses the Federal teat

    Two things.

    One, the conressional district with the highest per capita invlux of federal money was Newt Gringrich’s, according to Michael Moore’s short film on the subject back in the 90’s.
    The “Federal Teat” is everywhere, and since I am a progressive liberal, that’s fine with me.

    Two, real Manly Men Westerners such as myself are fine with the Federal Teat because we have the stones to tell the meddlers to go fuck themselves when necessary. Just as we can defend our peepees in the bathroom without a cop, we can defend our liberty and still take your money. Preferably, all of your money.

  9. 9.

    ThymeZone

    September 3, 2007 at 12:48 pm

    My previous post may double-post. Please blame that on whichever software company Demi works for.

  10. 10.

    Face

    September 3, 2007 at 1:35 pm

    Just as we can defend our peepees in the bathroom without a cop, we can defend our liberty and still take your money.

    TZ is determined to infect every thread for the next week with this theme.

    Because there are no vice cops west of Minneapolis. Word.

  11. 11.

    ThymeZone

    September 3, 2007 at 1:38 pm

    TZ is determined to infect every thread for the next week with this theme.

    Who the fuck are you to refer to my opinions as an “infection?”

    If you have an argument, make one. Otherwise kiss my ass.

  12. 12.

    Doug

    September 3, 2007 at 2:21 pm

    I was in Telluride a couple of weeks ago. I didn’t go up Sneffels, but did manage to go up a couple of 14ers near Breckenridge and Leadville (Quandary and La Plata, respectively). Nevertheless, I think the San Juans are about the prettiest mountains around.

  13. 13.

    Rome Again

    September 3, 2007 at 3:08 pm

    The wide open spaces, and the certain feeling that the people crowded into the Eastern half of the country are basically crazy.

    I find it ironic that you say this while sitting in the middle of a metropolitan area of over 3 million people. ;)

    When I was living on the east coast, I never had so many people surrounding me.

    Yes, I am slinging dinner rolls at you, let’s have some fun!

  14. 14.

    myiq2xu

    September 3, 2007 at 3:26 pm

    But things which remind people of the lies they’ve built their worlds around tend to be suppressed.

    Or attacked.

    My votes with you. The Western United States has some beautiful scenery but it’s history has been mythologized out of recognition. I got my BA in History with a concentration in History of the American West.

  15. 15.

    RSA

    September 3, 2007 at 3:38 pm

    the charming song written by Crosby

    Actually, by Cole Porter and Robert Fletcher. My favorite rendition is by David Byrne.

  16. 16.

    Xenos

    September 3, 2007 at 4:01 pm

    It’s why those of us who live in the West, prefer to live in the West

    Come on, can’t we tie gay New Yorkers to sentimental Westerners hanging around in public lavatories? It is an open thread, after all.

    I find plenty of wide open spaces in rural New England… as long as you try to forget it is the inspiration for H.P. Lovecraft. And we get our gays to marry and raise families, so they are too exhausted and depressed to cruise.

  17. 17.

    demimondian

    September 3, 2007 at 4:42 pm

    Xenos, until you’ve driven through Eastern Washington, Idaho, and Montana, you really don’t know empty. I know — I grew up in the northern reaches of New England, and…it just isn’t the same.

    To put it in perspective, a 50 mi sq county (yes, we have those) in north eastern Washington State had 98% voter turnout in a recent election. That led to a total of 864 votes…in the whole county.

    It’s very, very empty out here. And we’ve got nothing on the deserts of AZ, or on the any part of AK. (Or, perhaps, Alaska could be equally said to have nothing but scenery and moose. Oh, and corrupt bastards.)

  18. 18.

    ThymeZone

    September 3, 2007 at 5:07 pm

    I find it ironic that you say this while sitting in the middle of a metropolitan area of over 3 million people.

    True. But scenery like Tim’s photo is an hour’s drive away from where I sit. That’s what I like about the West, you are never far from turning around and seeing a spectacular vista or incredible scene.

    Yes, I am slinging dinner rolls at you, let’s have some fun!

    You know me. If you throw food at me, I’ll just eat it!

  19. 19.

    Xenos

    September 3, 2007 at 5:08 pm

    I said ‘wide-open’, not desolate and god-forsaken. To each their own, of course.

  20. 20.

    pharniel

    September 3, 2007 at 5:09 pm

    http://newsite.michaelrighi.com/2007/09/01/arrested-at-circuit-city/

    man arrested after he called the cops to get him out of the parking lot.

    fun times

    papers. i need to see your papers.

  21. 21.

    ThymeZone

    September 3, 2007 at 5:11 pm

    The Western United States has some beautiful scenery but

    But? The scenery is real.

    You know, in case you thought the Grand Canyon was a Trompe-l’œil.

  22. 22.

    ThymeZone

    September 3, 2007 at 5:16 pm

    And we get our gays to marry and raise families, so they are too exhausted and depressed to cruise.

    See? A practical solution that does not require the Minnesota Sex Police to protect your peepee.

  23. 23.

    myiq2xu

    September 3, 2007 at 5:21 pm

    The Western United States has some beautiful scenery but it’s history has been mythologized out of recognition.

    Begone, Troll.

  24. 24.

    Rome Again

    September 3, 2007 at 5:26 pm

    See? A practical solution that does not require the Minnesota Sex Police to protect your peepee.

    I almost said that, I decided to wait for you to do it. ;)

    True. But scenery like Tim’s photo is an hour’s drive away from where I sit. That’s what I like about the West, you are never far from turning around and seeing a spectacular vista or incredible scene.

    Where I lived on the eastern seaboard, scenery like that was five minutes away. The thing is, where you live, you have concentrated pockets packed with people and then miles and miles of nothing. Where I lived, people were more spread out, and not as tightly packed in. I am originally from suburbia, so what makes easterners like me crazy?

    You know me. If you throw food at me, I’ll just eat it!

    Damn, I didn’t think of that!

  25. 25.

    ThymeZone

    September 3, 2007 at 5:27 pm

    Begone, Troll.

    Fuck you, you little pipsqueak. You don’t want to be talkng to me like that.

  26. 26.

    myiq2xu

    September 3, 2007 at 5:34 pm

    You don’t want to be talkng to me.

    Fixed

  27. 27.

    demimondian

    September 3, 2007 at 5:35 pm

    The Western United States has some beautiful scenery but

    TZ, have I mentioned that I found a place which provides jackalope kits?

    Oh, and Puyallup is pronounced “pyu-all-up”, with the “a” nasalized, as in “arrogant”, not as in “asshole”.

  28. 28.

    ThymeZone

    September 3, 2007 at 5:35 pm

    Where I lived, people were more spread out, and not as tightly packed in.

    Um, Arizona has six million people. New York City has probably close to eight million people by now.

    Four million people live in the Phoenix Area. The rest of Arizona is about twice the size of New York State. Something like twelve million people live in New York outside of NYC in an area half the size of Arizona.

    Population density? New Jersey and Delaware, top ten. Arizona, 36th. New Jersey has the highest population density in the US according to wikipedia and based on the 2000 Census.

    I’m sorry, you lost me somwhere in suburbia :)

  29. 29.

    ThymeZone

    September 3, 2007 at 5:45 pm

    people were more spread out

    Yes, the East is known for its wide people.

    Out here, we have to be lean and mean. That scares off the gay peepee peepers and also cuts down on the back injuries to our horses.

  30. 30.

    demimondian

    September 3, 2007 at 5:46 pm

    But scenery like Tim’s photo is an hour’s drive away from where I sit.

    And about twenty minutes from where I sit. Until you’ve been out here for a while, you can’t imagine what it’s like.

    Remember, also, that the West is much more urbanized than the East, reflecting the difficulties with getting water. So our empty spaces are much emptier than yours.

  31. 31.

    ThymeZone

    September 3, 2007 at 5:46 pm

    TZ, have I mentioned that I found a place which provides jackalope kits?

    My neighbor, Jack A. Lopes, will be interested.

  32. 32.

    jnfr

    September 3, 2007 at 5:49 pm

    I love living in Colorado so much. You chose a great vacation spot, Tim. Though the condo sprawl in Telluride was sad, last time I was there. The canyons are still perfection though, especially this time of year.

  33. 33.

    ThymeZone

    September 3, 2007 at 5:54 pm

    Eat your heart out, Easterners.

    Sonoita, Arizona.

  34. 34.

    ThymeZone

    September 3, 2007 at 5:58 pm

    You don’t want to be talking to me.

    Fixed

    Then, don’t. Problem solved.

  35. 35.

    Rome Again

    September 3, 2007 at 6:03 pm

    Population density? New Jersey and Delaware, top ten. Arizona, 36th. New Jersey has the highest population density in the US according to wikipedia and based on the 2000 Census.

    Smaller states, higher density in urban areas, but not as packed in as you lead us to believe. The areas where I lived could be considered quite rural. Much of the area where I lived was farmland or forestry.

    The fact that AZ is 36th is only because it has so much more unoccupied land, but, there were a lot less people packed into an area where I lived.

    The entire crux of this argument is urbanization, and there are a lot of areas in the east that are not anywhere near as urban as you suggest.

  36. 36.

    myiq2xu

    September 3, 2007 at 6:05 pm

    I’m two hours from Yosemite Valley or Monterey, Giant Sequoias or Bristlecone pines (the oldest living things on Earth.) Less than six hours drive from the highest and lowest points in the continental US, San Francisco, LA, or Lake Tahoe.

  37. 37.

    Rome Again

    September 3, 2007 at 6:05 pm

    Yes, the East is known for its wide people.

    Well, I’m not one of them.

  38. 38.

    chopper

    September 3, 2007 at 6:07 pm

    Smaller states, higher density in urban areas, but not as packed in as you lead us to believe. The areas where I lived could be considered quite rural. Much of the area where I lived was farmland or forestry.

    NYS is full of empty land. it’s also full of cities, lots of em. which explains why there are so many people in NYS despite there being so goddamned much farmland and empty space.

  39. 39.

    Bruce Moomaw

    September 3, 2007 at 6:11 pm

    “Can’t say that I missed politics much.”

    Maybe, but the world is continuing to go to hell right on schedule.

  40. 40.

    Rome Again

    September 3, 2007 at 6:15 pm

    Remember, also, that the West is much more urbanized than the East, reflecting the difficulties with getting water. So our empty spaces are much emptier than yours.

    Exactly, Demi. My point is, TZ says easterners are crazy, yet he, a person who is sitting in a heavily urbanized area which he, as a human, will spend most of his time in due to it being his home, deals with many more population issues than I ever did living in the areas of the east where I lived. I take exception to easterners being called crazy in light of such facts.

  41. 41.

    myiq2xu

    September 3, 2007 at 6:15 pm

    Maybe, but the world is continuing to go to hell right on schedule.

    “I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe, but at least I’m enjoying the ride.” – Grateful Dead

  42. 42.

    Rome Again

    September 3, 2007 at 6:18 pm

    Maybe, but the world is continuing to go to hell right on schedule.

    Was there any doubt?

  43. 43.

    Jess

    September 3, 2007 at 6:21 pm

    I’m two hours from Yosemite Valley or Monterey, Giant Sequoias or Bristlecone pines (the oldest living things on Earth.) Less than six hours drive from the highest and lowest points in the continental US, San Francisco, LA, or Lake Tahoe.

    You’re in the Valley? I pity you…

    I just drove from California to my new home in central Massachusetts–took the scenic route and spent a week camping in the Southwest. I was expecting to feel claustrophobic in New England after all that open space, but it’s pretty lush and undeveloped here. Rural New England is worlds apart from the Eastern Seaboard, it seems. Most of the buildings are old and hidden behind trees, so they’re not so in-your-face as housing developments in California–which is sadly becoming waaay over populated.

  44. 44.

    myiq2xu

    September 3, 2007 at 6:28 pm

    they’re not so in-your-face as housing developments in California—which is sadly becoming waaay over populated.

    You got that right! A popular bumper sticker here in Big Smoggy is:

    “Welcome to California. Now go home.”

  45. 45.

    capelza

    September 3, 2007 at 6:32 pm

    Yeah, love the West. The PNW is a great place…I can go from the rainforest coast to the Cascades to the desert in half a day ( it’d be quicker, but our roads are curvy and I have to go over 2 passes to get there).

    Oregon, population 3,700,000+. It was less than 2 and half million when I moved here thirty years ago, but it’s still pretty empty, save for the I-5 corridor. And that beach house as second home thing, though all the beaches are still public land. My county is nearly a 1000 square miles and the population is hovering around 46.000. The biggest town has about 10,000 people, maybe 12,000 counting the “suburbs”. I’m a good hour to the nearest “big” population center over a pass..and that town has about 55,000.

    I love it. Alaska would be even better, but I can’t drag my Oregon boy out of his world. He was born on Tongue Point and when he dies, I’m supposed to take his ashes back there and let them flow down the Columbia River.

    Anyone ever read “The Egg and I”? It’s a great read on what the PNW was like in the lifetime of some people I know, and it wasn’t THAT different when I grew up in Eureka, CA. The last 20 years, some places are unrecognisable, the growth.

  46. 46.

    whippoorwill

    September 3, 2007 at 6:47 pm

    Arizona is OK! except all the plants have thorns big as shark teeth, and it’s Dante’s inferno this time of year. I’m at 6000 feet on the edge of the Gila in southwest NM and you couldn’t pry me outa here for love nor money. Nothing is done until tomorrow[manana], or the next day and NM has the fewest laws of any place I’ve lived, which suits me just fine.

  47. 47.

    Jess

    September 3, 2007 at 6:49 pm

    “Welcome to California. Now go home.”

    Yeah, I was born there, but have finally given up on it. I want to buy some land to build an off-the-grid house, but there was no way that was ever going to happen in California–all I could ever afford was a rented studio apartment.

  48. 48.

    myiq2xu

    September 3, 2007 at 6:51 pm

    I would say that East and West have some similarities. Georgia has urban Atlanta and suburban Cobb county (Newt’s home) which are very different from areas of Georgia that make “Duke’s of Hazzard” look highbrow.

    I live in a primarily agricultural area of California not far from SF and Silicon Valley, while Eureka is like another planet.

  49. 49.

    Face

    September 3, 2007 at 6:58 pm

    Rural New England is worlds apart from the Eastern Seaboard, it seems.

    I cannot for the life of me understand how peeps can live in NY or Boston. A gazillion people everywhere, all the time, plus traffic, noise, pollution, crime, etc.

    Give me open space, cheaper houses, and bike trails.

  50. 50.

    capelza

    September 3, 2007 at 7:03 pm

    Eureka IS another planet… it has more in common with the country to the north of it than to the rest of the state. But the country she fronts is some of the most magnificent in the US, if not the world. Most people just don’t know how to get to it. :)

    Someone above mentioned H.P. Lovecraft, and while he was writing about New England, there’s a hit of it in true northern CA. It’s dank and weird right on the coast, and was (might be still) a smuggler’s paradise. Biggest port between SF and PTLD, but no customs to speak of, lots of pot going out (and in, go figure) and heroin coming in. WIld country. But I love it. I just won’t live in a state ruled by LA or the Bay Area.

  51. 51.

    demimondian

    September 3, 2007 at 7:17 pm

    Eureka IS another planet… it has more in common with the country to the north of it than to the rest of the state. But the country she fronts is some of the most magnificent in the US, if not the world. Most people just don’t know how to get to it.

    And, thank God, most of those who start getting to that magnificent country stop south of the Columbia River.

  52. 52.

    myiq2xu

    September 3, 2007 at 7:21 pm

    My son ran north and ended up in Olympia. South of Microsoft, north of the rest of the free world,

  53. 53.

    capelza

    September 3, 2007 at 7:27 pm

    demi…you think they stop? Puget Sound is crazy. Everett used to be a little burg north of Seattle, not the north end of “town”.

    Speaking of Everett, remember the tire fire? :lol:

    I guess I should have explained myself better, Eureka “fronts” to the east some of the wildest country around, little Alps included…but I see what you are saying, too.

    They all stopped at Bend. :(

  54. 54.

    demimondian

    September 3, 2007 at 7:32 pm

    Speaking of Everett, remember the tire fire?

    Which one? There have been a lot… :)

  55. 55.

    capelza

    September 3, 2007 at 7:41 pm

    Oh the one in the 80’s. 1984 I think.

    Two big topics of conversation I remember, besides the building of the Columbia Tower and that racket about it being too tall for Sea-Tac (were we rubes or what?), were the Green River killer and the Everett fire. I was living outside Anacortes at the time and would drive by it. I remember it “fondly”, it went on for months.

  56. 56.

    demimondian

    September 3, 2007 at 7:46 pm

    I’m a later import than that, I fear — early nineties for me. (“Will the last one out of Seattle please turn out the lights?” billboard on I-5 era. Remember that?)

  57. 57.

    demimondian

    September 3, 2007 at 7:53 pm

    And the Green River killer is a sore point for those of us who deal with Representative Dave Reichart of WA-08.

  58. 58.

    Xenos

    September 3, 2007 at 7:55 pm

    The one thing I have read that made me want to live in the Pacific Northwest (no, it wasn’t Vineland) was James Beard’s memoirs. What I really wanted was to go and have James Beard cooking for me, though, so I have not yet made it there.

    You are no doubt happy to keep uptight Easterners like me a good three-thousand miles away.

  59. 59.

    capelza

    September 3, 2007 at 7:57 pm

    Yeah, that was from the last Boeing bust though wasn’t it?

    I lived in Puget Sound before there were traffic jams. And when the Space Needle wasn’t dwarfed by the skyscrapers. And Fisherman’s Terminal actually had fishermen on it :lol: It’s so different now. But still, when I come around that corner, driving north on I-5, and the skyline first comes into view, I get goosebumps. I love that city.

    Vancouver is a very close second. Portland, not so much.

  60. 60.

    capelza

    September 3, 2007 at 8:01 pm

    Holy Cow I’m out of the loop, he’s a pol now? I take it he’s a Republican.

  61. 61.

    Punchy

    September 3, 2007 at 8:02 pm

    Speaking of Everett Gary, Indiana, remember the tire fire that lasted for months?

    Fixed for us Chicagoians.

  62. 62.

    demimondian

    September 3, 2007 at 8:04 pm

    I lived in Puget Sound before there were traffic jams

    Hell, *I* lived in Puget Sound before there were traffic jams.

    No more.

    It’s not the same city I remember at all. For me, it’s a mixed bag; I always found the famous Seattle “nice” kind of fake, and so it’s gradual replacement with something more like formal politeness makes me a lot more comfortable.

  63. 63.

    demimondian

    September 3, 2007 at 8:06 pm

    Yeah, Reichart’s a f*cking Bush clone. dKos is big-time supporting one of his Dem challengers, Darcy Burner. I hope she wins.

  64. 64.

    demimondian

    September 3, 2007 at 8:09 pm

    What I really wanted was to go and have James Beard cooking for me, though, so I have not yet made it there.

    If you make it out here for the food, you should make a pilgrimage to the Herb Farm, then. It’s one of the very few restaurants I’d travel cross-country for.

  65. 65.

    t. jasper parnell

    September 3, 2007 at 8:15 pm

    Speaking of wide open spaces, free and lean men, and the nanny state, did you know that water costs less in Phoenix than Portland?
    How can that be you ask? Phoenix being desert like and all? I believe it is called the public teat. Indeed, the whole development in the SW hinges on cheap water, who pays, you ask? The rest of the nation. Live free or tax the Easterners, it would seem.

  66. 66.

    capelza

    September 3, 2007 at 8:25 pm

    Seattle was famous for being “nice”? That’s what i get for spending all my time in Ballard (pre-gentrificatiion).

    Hell I’m still pissed they stopped calling it “Jet City”…(great Queensryche song). The whole “Oz” thing made me gag, too cutsey.

    My mother explained to me that she found PNW people polite, but reserved. Always has.

    That’s weird about Reichert. I’ve been reading Kos again and caught that about Darcy Burner, but didn’t make the connection with the GR cop.

    East coast people are ok, as long as they leave that “east coast” thing behind. There’s one guy that I’ve known for 30 years, from back in NYC, was next door neighbours for nearly two decades of that…he still hasn’t adapted. He’s going to give himself a coronary one day. Going from the biggest city in the world practically (at the time) to bumfuck, Oregon…he has transistion issues still. The words he heard most from all his neighbours was “Will you relax!”.

  67. 67.

    t. jasper parnell

    September 3, 2007 at 8:37 pm

    Hey and here is another blow for freedom, one dollar thirty pennies spent by the federal government in AZ for every dollar collected, freedom for AZ. Meanwhile in NY 79 pennies spent for every dollar collected. Whose paying for whose freedom?

  68. 68.

    demimondian

    September 3, 2007 at 8:40 pm

    That’s what i get for spending all my time in Ballard (pre-gentrificatiion).

    Hee hee hee.

    That’s such a Seattle thing to say…and so very true. No, Ballard is not what it was.

    My son goes to school down in Tacoma. Remember the Aroma of Tacoma? It’s gone now. There’s a faint haze during an inversion, but, other than that, Tacoma could be any other moderately gritty industrial town.

  69. 69.

    demimondian

    September 3, 2007 at 8:42 pm

    C’mon jasper – there are two sides to that. I can’t speak for AZ, but WA has Hanford and the Snark…er, I mean *Snake*…River dams and, and, and. The country as a whole really has done a lot of harm to us, and is now paying to clean up the mess that was made to support WWII. I don’t deny that we get more than we put out, but…there’s *some* justice to it, after all.

  70. 70.

    t. jasper parnell

    September 3, 2007 at 8:52 pm

    Yes, sure; but then again who is complaining about the state’s role? In addition, I am not speaking of WA, which is also a net loser, just pointing out that those who whinge about the “nanny state” ought remember the old saw about glass houses and what not.

    I haven’t been to WA since the mid to late 80s but then, in any event, it had the most polite drivers I have ever met.

  71. 71.

    capelza

    September 3, 2007 at 8:56 pm

    Yes I do remember Tacoma that way. I actually like Tacoma, but we got a huge kick out of Toyota when they named their small truck after it.

    That would be like Ford renaming their small truck “Cleveland”.

    I think that’s my biggest problem with Portland, it’s down in that swamp, and it get sreally thick inversion layer wise there. Actually there are other things about PDX I don’t like, but that’s a major factor.

  72. 72.

    t. jasper parnell

    September 3, 2007 at 9:00 pm

    demimondian
    BTW, look how much Seatle pays for water, sitting as it does on the edge of the ocean compared to AZ, still think this is a payback to AZ for all the hits it took? Or is it a govt subsidy for those who wish to live in the desert?

    Memphis, Tennessee $14.16
    Phoenix, Arizona $16.27

    Seattle, Washington $39.75
    (the link is above)

  73. 73.

    Tim F.

    September 3, 2007 at 9:00 pm

    Feh. PNW is a naturalist’s dream, except for the devil’s club. Devil’s club and cholla can share a bed in hell as far as I’m concerned.

  74. 74.

    Xenos

    September 3, 2007 at 9:03 pm

    Nobody was testing nuclear bombs in upstate New York, or even Greater Philadelphia, so I guess we owe ’em something. You have to adjust the numbers for the difference in Federally owned land, too. If the Feds are your biggest neighbor, and pay no taxes to local governments, they ought to be kicking in some transfer payments.

  75. 75.

    t. jasper parnell

    September 3, 2007 at 9:09 pm

    If the Feds are your biggest neighbor, and pay no taxes to local governments, they ought to be kicking in some transfer payments.

    Yes, because folks would be lining up to buy land and build cities (as opposed to say mine and then rush back to civilization) in the desert if they had to pay market prices (or something that smelled like market prices) for water, right?

  76. 76.

    Xenos

    September 3, 2007 at 9:15 pm

    Water is another issue, perhaps, and one I am not equipped to debate. Certainly who get how much water and for how much is a matter of political power and not of sensible long-term resource management. I suspect the sprawl in the desert is going to be a disaster someday when the water, or energy, or both either run out or become too expensive to obtain.

    To the degree the rest of us subsidize it, it is a mistake. For the people moving out there and settling, and for the banks that give 30 year loans on property that might be worthless an uninhabitable in 20 years, they are taking some reckless chances.

  77. 77.

    demimondian

    September 3, 2007 at 9:16 pm

    jasper — you realize this, I know, but not everybody does: PNW is a drought climate. We get less rain in the average year here in Seattle metro than Little Rock, AR, but we get it all in the winter. In the summer, we get next to no rain.

    We pipe in water from the Cascades. AZ has to make do with a minor trickle called the “Colorado River”. I wonder how they get enough water for Phoenix out of it, actually.

  78. 78.

    Xenos

    September 3, 2007 at 9:18 pm

    And the shortage of water in Seattle probably has more to do with subsidized irrigation upstream, than it does with subsidies for exploiting the South-Western water resources. So look to your local powers-that-be to justify or fix the situation.

  79. 79.

    demimondian

    September 3, 2007 at 9:24 pm

    the shortage of water in Seattle probably has more to do with subsidized irrigation upstream

    Actually, no. The water for the vast agricultural irrigation project which is eastern Washington is mostly provided by Lake Roosevelt. That’s the lake behind the Grand Coulee Dam on the Columbia River, which has the second largest rate of flow in North America, after only the Mississippi itself. It’s hundreds of miles away from us at its nearest approach.

    And, to be fair, western Washington has a *lot* of water for agriculture, again, provided by rivers to which Seattle metro has no reasonable claim.

    In this case, we’re our own worst enemies. WUPPS!

  80. 80.

    capelza

    September 3, 2007 at 9:41 pm

    Tim, before I leave, wanted to say that that pic is beautiful, what an incredible place. Welcome back?

  81. 81.

    t. jasper parnell

    September 3, 2007 at 9:44 pm

    True enough less than Little Rock but a red herring. Sea-Tac @ 38 inches; Pheonix @ 7 inches. So if, as you claim, although I am not sure drought is guite accurate, water is scarce in Seattle it is even so much more scarcer in Pheonix. This really is not hard or that controversial. Absent a concerted effort, in terms of financial investment and the like, neither flowers nor cities bloom in the desert. Since about 1950, the federal government has been pumping money into the SW to keep it and its lawns afloat. I mean really, Sun City?

  82. 82.

    t. jasper parnell

    September 3, 2007 at 9:47 pm

    AZ has to make do with a minor trickle called the “Colorado River”. I wonder how they get enough water for Phoenix out of it, actually.

    The rest of us pay to make it possible, that is how.

  83. 83.

    t. jasper parnell

    September 3, 2007 at 9:51 pm

    I suspect the sprawl in the desert is going to be a disaster someday when the water, or energy, or both either run out or become too expensive to obtain.

    Bingo, but all the Pheonusians can thank the nanny state that they are there now.

  84. 84.

    demimondian

    September 3, 2007 at 9:55 pm

    The rest of us pay to make it possible, that is how.

    Well, actually, no. LA pays to make it possible — without Colorado River water, LA would parch. The City of the Angels made a Faustian bargain and bought water from AZ, which purchase has payed for their cheap liquid gold.

    There are a lot of reasons to call the Arizonans on their faux libertarianism, subsidized as it by the rest of us, but the water, oddly enough, probably isn’t one of the best attacks. Go after BLM subsidizes, instead, where we routinely subsidize their boneheaded extraction schemes.

  85. 85.

    t. jasper parnell

    September 3, 2007 at 10:02 pm

    There are a lot of reasons to call the Arizonans on their faux libertarianism, subsidized as it by the rest of us, but the water, oddly enough, probably isn’t one of the best attacks. Go after BLM subsidizes, instead, where we routinely subsidize their boneheaded extraction schemes.

    This makes no sense. No water no city; water rates in AZ, Phoenix in particular, is subsidized. It is in the middle of the desert, and if memory serves, in the middle of a drought. “Market rates” for water would be so high as to make it impossible to live there. BLM policies do not, so far as I know, affect urbanization in areas where urban agglomorations are impracticable. It is all about the water.

  86. 86.

    demimondian

    September 3, 2007 at 10:07 pm

    No, Jasper, that’s not what I said.

    I said that we didn’t subsidize the water in Phoenix, and we don’t. LA pays for water, AZ provides, using the money it gets to also provide water to Arizonans. Bizarre as that may sound if you don’t live in the West, that really is a fair deal — we take our water rights VERY seriously out here, and LA would die without the water.

    BLM policies, on the other hand, are purely redistributive. They exist to encourage Western resource extraction, period. That’s pure subsidy.

  87. 87.

    t. jasper parnell

    September 3, 2007 at 10:13 pm

    demimondian,
    Your mistaken. the federal government does sugsidize water rates and, waht is more, engages in diplomacy to assure that the Colorado supplies . You “westerners” may take your water rights as serioiusly as you wish but the rest of us pick up the slack

  88. 88.

    t. jasper parnell

    September 3, 2007 at 10:15 pm

    Crisis and more re water.

  89. 89.

    t. jasper parnell

    September 3, 2007 at 10:18 pm

    Go figure

    Water is the lifeblood of the American West and the foundation of its economy. It can also be the scarcest resource in some of the fastest growing areas of the country. Existing water supplies are, or will be, inadequate in many parts of the West. In order to meet the water demands for people, cities, farms and the environment – even under normal water supply conditions — Water 2025 focuses on stretching existing water supplies through collaboration, technology and innovative, market-based solutions. It is designed to produce results and demonstrate investments that can help in preventing crises and conflict in the West.

    Still waiting, as it were, for a response re Little Rocke and Phoenix.

  90. 90.

    t. jasper parnell

    September 3, 2007 at 10:23 pm

    “

    Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”

    So said John Adams in 1770, when defending British soldiers after the Boston Massacre.

    And so to bed

    Samuel Pepys

  91. 91.

    Cain

    September 3, 2007 at 10:29 pm

    I said ‘wide-open’, not desolate and god-forsaken. To each their own, of course.

    If you want desolate and god-forsaken, the blast plain of Mt St. Helens is just like that. No sound. No birds, no signs of life. Very spooky.

    Eastern Oregon is somewhat like that. Once you go past the Dalles there isn’t much. The scenery is pretty but it’s like dry. That’s one thing cool about Oregon. You’ve got pretty much everything. Rainforest to high desert, to dunes, to mountains, ocean.. you can’t get much better than that, baby.

    cain

  92. 92.

    Andrew

    September 3, 2007 at 10:32 pm

    Beautiful vistas aren’t worth living for without pulled pork barbecue.

  93. 93.

    myiq2xu

    September 3, 2007 at 11:34 pm

    I drove due east from Denver once. Talk about desolate. Flat as a pancake and hardly any trees, all of which were planted by men. Kansas didn’t look anything like the scenery from Gunsmoke or any of the westerns supposedly set in Dodge City or Abilene.

    We stopped for gas in Hayes, Kansas and the guy in front of me at the counter asked the clerk if the wind ever stopped blowing. The clerk looked at him like he was crazy.

    I told him that yeah, it did, but he didn’t want to be anywhere around when it did.

  94. 94.

    ThymeZone

    September 4, 2007 at 12:18 am

    The rest of us pay to make it possible, that is how.

    Actually, Colorado River water, like all water here, is paid for, and the prices are not cheap. The projects that bring the water from the watersheds into the city are expensive and we pay through the nose for the water. my modest abode racks up $150 a month water bills in the summertime.

    Central Arizona is a basin at the bottom of huge watersheds. Pima Cotton, a crop that is just about next to rice in terms of its thirst for water, was created in this valley by the Pima Indians using irrigation systems not unlike the ones we use now. But more to the the point, using water from watersheds that have been, over time, very generous with their water supply.

    People who don’t live here and don’t know the history generally have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to water. “It’s a desert!” just about describes the extent of their knowledge about it.

    You can start here and after a couple years of research come back and tell us what you learned.

  95. 95.

    Beej

    September 4, 2007 at 12:28 am

    Those of us who live here on the buffalo commons have gone to great lengths to keep the riff-raff from both east and west out of the last really good places to live in these United States. So far it is working well. Yes, the wind blows all the time in Kansas and Nebraska too. There’s nothing here but miles and miles of nothing. So move along. You don’t want to stop here.

  96. 96.

    ThymeZone

    September 4, 2007 at 12:51 am

    In Phoenix, we pay for water systems that were largely capitalized a long time ago. A good example is the Salt River Project.

    Via bonds, and the sale of electric power, and the sale of the water (for a long time, mostly to grow cotton), the initial investment was paid off long ago.

    Which is good since water consumption here tends to be high (the crops, trees and laws all have to be watered with paid for water, we dont get enough rain the valley to support any of that vegatation). So if you look at my $150 water bill, it’s $60 for house water, $60 for yard water, and $30 for other services. My water all comes from SRP originally.

    Check the water levels on their lakes (Apache, Saguaro and Canyon).

    As you see, the great drought has left these lakes at near capacity levels.

  97. 97.

    Evinfuilt

    September 4, 2007 at 9:06 am

    Mt. Sneffels, thats one killer 14er, it does not deserve such a silly name.

    Wish I was back in Colorado right now. Houston is just… it is.

  98. 98.

    BIRDZILLA

    September 4, 2007 at 9:58 am

    Maybe that where JIMMY HOFFA is buried

  99. 99.

    Punchy

    September 4, 2007 at 10:32 am

    Flat as a pancake and hardly any trees, all of which were planted by men. Kansas didn’t look anything like the scenery from Gunsmoke or any of the westerns supposedly set in Dodge City or Abilene.

    We stopped for gas in Hayes, Kansas and the guy in front of me at the counter asked the clerk if the wind ever stopped blowing. The clerk looked at him like he was crazy.

    Western KS ain’t so bad. People are just SICK nice. True story–an Argentinian huz and wife friend went west from Lawrence just to see what it looked like. Tornado warning sent them looking for shelter in some po-dunk, ~100 person town miles off the interstate west of Colby. Sat in a bar and was THE town celebrity for hours. Nobody had ever seen an Argentinian before, let alone 2 of ’em. He was like a new species they’d discovered. They drank for free and promised to return.

    That shit doesn’t happen in Miami or Dallas.

  100. 100.

    myiq2xu

    September 4, 2007 at 10:43 am

    They drank for free and promised to return.

    I hope they don’t come back during a full moon or they’ll end up as sacrifices to “He who walks behind the rows.”

  101. 101.

    Tim F.

    September 4, 2007 at 10:55 am

    Maybe that where JIMMY HOFFA is buried

    Nope. Everybody knows that Hoffa is buried under the dock at Kennebunkport.

  102. 102.

    The Other Steve

    September 4, 2007 at 11:40 am

    Hey and here is another blow for freedom, one dollar thirty pennies spent by the federal government in AZ for every dollar collected, freedom for AZ. Meanwhile in NY 79 pennies spent for every dollar collected. Whose paying for whose freedom?

    That’s not fair. It’s counting all the Social Security payments the 90% of residents in Arizona receive for retiring there.

  103. 103.

    ThymeZone

    September 4, 2007 at 12:23 pm

    That’s not fair. It’s counting all the Social Security payments the 90% of residents in Arizona receive for retiring there who moved from Minnesota to get away from the freezing ass cold and from the restrooms where you need cops to protect your peepee from peepee peeper perpetrators.

    Heh.

  104. 104.

    Andrew

    September 4, 2007 at 12:27 pm

    That’s not fair. It’s counting all the Social Security payments the 90% of residents in Arizona receive for retiring there.

    I guess we know where to start the Soylent Green experiment.

  105. 105.

    ThymeZone

    September 4, 2007 at 4:59 pm

    another blow for freedom

    Sorry, but for your comfort and safety, that phrase has been outlawed in Minnesota.

    I’m sure you can understand why.

  106. 106.

    t. jasper parnell

    September 4, 2007 at 8:44 pm

    Water subsidies history of more more

    There is lots more, take ten yrs your own slef pompous protoplasmic spoof of a jackloped ectomorph

  107. 107.

    t. jasper parnell

    September 4, 2007 at 8:50 pm

    Re Salt River

    Overall, the federal government is paying about 65 percent of the cost of construction, which is about halfway completed in Phoenix. “We’re really pushing to have it finished by late 2004,” said Karen Williams, project coordinator for Phoenix. “It takes a long time, so it’s really exciting to see the wonderful wildlife coming to enjoy the habitat.”

  108. 108.

    t. jasper parnell

    September 4, 2007 at 9:02 pm

    Huh

    Arizona’s rapid growth and arid environment have stressed groundwater tables and riparian areas throughout the state. Since 1980, when Arizona enacted the Groundwater Management Act, the focus of water management efforts in the two major urban areas of the state has been on substituting renewable water supplies for groundwater.1The Phoenix metropolitan area has benefited from the construction of the series of dams and reservoirs that make up the Salt River Project, one of the first projects built by the United States Bureau of Reclamation. For years, cities and farms in Maricopa County have relied on water from the Salt and Verde Rivers. More recently, the Central Arizona Project, also built by the Bureau of Reclamation, has brought Colorado River water to the Phoenix and Tucson regions . . . The United States Army Corps of Engineers is part of the U.S. Department of Defense. The Corps’ role in civil works has changed as the needs of the country have changed. The missions today fall in four broad areas: water infrastructure, environmental management and restoration, response to natural and manmade disasters, and engineering and technical services to the Army, Department of Defense and other Federal agencies.3Funding for the Civil Works programs is authorized through the annual federal Energy and Water budget. Ecosystem restoration is a relatively new focus for the Corps. The purpose of ecosystem restoration is to re-establish the attributes of a natural, functioning and self- regulating system. The Corps pursues projects involving environmental restoration under multiple congressional authorities. Through its General Investigations (GI) efforts, the Corps participates in individually authorized programs. Environmental restoration projects may also be undertaken through Sections 1135 and 206 of the Water Resources Development Act (WRDA). The Section 1135 and Section 206 programs each have an annual program limit nationally of $25 million, and each project under either of these sections is limited to a federal contribution of $5 million. The investments associated with GI efforts are not so limited, and the federal government typically funds 65 percent of the construction costs. All projects, regardless of cost, require a local partner/sponsor

    facts stubborn, bed awaits, changes none, ectomorphic jackalope

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