The Republican debate, via Benen:
Fox cuts to Hannity, who is now, inexplicably, wearing a blue tie. Hannity introduces pollster Frank Luntz, who has a focus group of 29 Republican voters at a restaurant in New Hampshire. […]
Luntz asks the voters to raise their hands if they think the candidates exceeded their expectations. No hands get raised. He asks how many were disappointed. They all raise their hands. “This is not a good night,” Luntz concludes.
Try to read the bit about Ron Paul without thinking of Alice at the tea party.
cmoreNC
Luntz is an extraordinarily talented “evil genius” who, if there’s any possible way to successfully repackage the GOP brand for 2008, is capable of finding or creating it. One of the key elements of his talent as a GOP consultant is that he does not drink the GOP or Bush Kool-Aid, does not befuddle his own mind with the sort of ideological GOP “talking points” perspective he is paradoxically so skilled at helping craft. Rather, he’s a rigorously objective scholar of public opinion, what motivates and makes people tick in reaction to public issues – and he’s genuinely curious with how people actually think, not how he thinks they ought to think according to republican principles.
The paradoxical result is that as a commentator or observer, he’s worth listening to because he is interested in an honestly accurate analysis of why people are inclined to vote one way or another, support this and not that, why one candidate wins while another loses – BUT: in his paid political work for the GOP, he puts these objective insights to work to dishonestly manipulative ends. Because he doesn’t allow himself to be fooled by his own pr bullshit, he’s far more effective than most of the partisan consultants you see on talk shows. And far more worth listening to for an honest opinion of what’s going on, even though the dishonest ends he often puts his skills to sets also sometimes my teeth on edge when I see him on TV.
chopper
this is why i love ron paul. by coming off as the wacky far-right dude that the rest of the party laughs at, his (reasonable) foreign policy beliefs are treated as if they’re radioactive by the rest of the candidates.
so the GOP runs the other way, cementing their status as the party of Staying In Iraq For The Next Decade. which will essentially guarantee that they lose bad in 08.
thank you, ron.
ThymeZone
Not Ron’s fault. The fault lies with the parties, who have spent millions, and years, building a political machine that relies on things like feelgood politics and personality and is honed to parse the demographics down to the last decimal place. Polished demagoguery is now the coin of the realm.
Lee
I’ve always felt Chris Wallace was a tool, now I want to kick him in the teeth.
myiq2xu
Uh, John? “Republican Stupidity” is redundant.
Fe E
I’ve been trying to verbalize exactly what makes this next election so grim for Republicans, but Benen did it for me.
myiq2xu
Screw the steak, sell the sizzle?
The problem is PR and advertising cannot compensate for for a complete lack on intrinsic value. People are finally seeing through the GOP spin machine.
The finest chef in the world cannot make chicken soup out of chicken shit.
But if the Democrats try to emulate the GOP by offering nothing but polished demagoguery they’re going down the tubes too.
Meanwhile any candidate who really believes what he says gets turned into an unperson by the media.
Zifnab
I’m personally horrified at the idea that Democrats are going to talk a good game, then sell us all out. I can see a scenario in which Dems take Washington in ’08, then proceed to reneg on every one of their promises.
Then who do you go to? The GOP that you know is batshit crazy or the Democrats, who will lull you with promises of withdrawal and an end to the madness, then keep on keeping on with ludicrous Republican policies.
Tom Gellhaus
Ron Paul is unlikely to win the primaries and be the candidate for the GOP. HOWEVER….
If he is not their candidate, they deserve to lose in 2008 and 2012, and beyond. I have known about Ron Paul for nearly 20 years. The wild enthusiasm seen on the part of his supporters comes from the simple truth that he is getting more coverage for stating – and defending – what USED to be the Republican policy and principles. The last man to defend those positions was Barry Goldwater.
Perhaps Ron’s defeat next year as nominee will have a similar result, bringing about a re-commitment to the Constitution and rule of law by Republicans.
Zifnab
Speaking of Presidential Candidates, this is just fucking hilarious.
General Pet Reaus For President
Gus
“But if the Democrats try to emulate the GOP by offering nothing but polished demagoguery they’re going down the tubes too.”
If?
ThymeZone
Pretty much true, yes.
chopper
not saying it is. its the GOPs fault for treating him like the crazy uncle in the basement. of course, this mistake benefits the dems, so go GOP.
ThymeZone
I hope you are right, but then I think that there isn’t a GOP candidate who can win the general election. I hope I’m right about that, too. Oh shit, I really hope so.
Xenos
How do we know Petraeus is a Republican? I don’t doubt that he is, but it is pretty damn scandalous if he is clearly known to have allegiance to a particular party. Or at least it should be.
chopper
true, but this is gonna help make the difference between losing the election and getting slaughtered. plus, consider the effect the quality of the dude running for president has on congressional races.
cleek
they’re really not even talking a good game. all of the leading Dems are firmly in favor of withdrawing but leaving a “large residual force” – which is like breaking up with someone, but not moving out because you don’t want to give up the “benefits”.
Zifnab
At the end of the day, I’d love to see a 60-Dem Senate, immune to the filibuster and generally impervious to Republican dirty tricks. And we’ve already got four Senate seats rip for the picking – Virginia, … another three… ask Kos – and while picking up six more seems a little dreamy eyed, with the way Republicans have been tanking its not outside the realm of possibility.
A strong Democratic contender leading the ballot will bring out the voters and could easily sweep the elections. Imagine ’06 all over again, but this time in a Presidential year.
A triangulating mealy-mouthed Hillary Clinton won’t be able to pull of that type of political firestorm like a firebrand Dean or Gore.
Rick Taylor
“Wallace: So, Congressman Paul, . . . you’re basically saying that we should take our marching orders from al Qaeda? If they want us off the Arabian Peninsula, we should leave?”
“The crowd erupted. Wallace made little effort to hide his disdain for Ron Paul, but this was apparently the roundhouse punch that was supposed to knock Paul out completely.”
Well great. Every day I think I couldn’t possibly have more contempt for the Republican party, and every day I’m proven wrong. It’s really become a party of macho two year old idiots, hasn’t it?
–Rick Taylor
ThymeZone
Grab your knickers. I am announcing a change of mind WRT HRC’s candidacy: After seeing and hearing a lot of her in the last week or so, I have made a major shift and concluded that ….
1) She is going to be your next president
2) She is by far the best prepared candidate (yes, sometimes that means doing the best mealy mouth routine of the bunch) and I mean, other than Al Gore, nobody else on either side is even close to her level.
3) She is convincing, confident, and …. smart.
4) She can be beaten in the primaries only by Al Gore
5) Even though I can’t stand her upper-register “big hall” speaking voice (it actually hurts my ears) there is not another candidate, Dem or GOP, who can beat her.
Batten down ye olde hatches, maties. Unless something very dramatic happens, she is going to win it all, and ….. please remain seated …. I am going to vote for her.
“Unless” leaves the door open to other possibilities. But if I were betting with your money, or even mine, I would be betting on President Hillary Clinton taking office in January 2009.
You heard it here first.
Carry on.
ThymeZone
Ron Paul shreds Huckabee The Concern Troll.
Huckabee: Peace With Honor, 2007 version.
Fuck him.
cleek
why do people think the Dems want to pull out ?
Pb
It might even be worth looking at the video of this–I saw a chunk of it, and there was actually a lot of applause all around, for Ron Paul and for the other candidates.
rachel
…who is not going to stick his dick in that meat grinder again.
Tax Analyst
Looks that way to me, too. I’m not going to have any problem voting for HRC, especially against any of the 7 Republican Mental-Dwarves or Freddy-boy Thompson, either.
I don’t see anything all that horrible or scary about her, although we are liable to hear a lot about Vince Foster and all the little children she has eaten, past & present.
Rick Taylor
“2) She is by far the best prepared candidate (yes, sometimes that means doing the best mealy mouth routine of the bunch) and I mean, other than Al Gore, nobody else on either side is even close to her level.”
Yup. She’s been through the fire, no doubt. She’s experienced the right-wing slime machine as much as any of the other candidates.
“3) She is convincing, confident, and …. smart.”
No question about that!
“5) Even though I can’t stand her upper-register “big hall” speaking voice (it actually hurts my ears) there is not another candidate, Dem or GOP, who can beat her.”
After getting the last two Presidential elections wrong, I don’t make predictions anymore; I have no idea.
“I am going to vote for her.”
I certainly won’t vote for her in the primaries (her Iraq vote was too big a mistake for me to trust her judgment), but I’ll certainly vote for in the general if she’s the Democratic candidate. I wish there was a Republican running that could make me say otherwise (I’d vote for Lincoln Chafee over her), but there definitely isn’t.
Rick Taylor
This article puts it very well: http://time-blog.com/swampland/2007/09/makes_me_wanta_holler_1.html
“Watching the Republicans talk about Iraq makes me want to scream. There is absolutely no recognition of the complexities, the difficult choices, the reality there. The most upsetting performance was by McCain, who knows the military and should know better. . .”
ThymeZone
Yes, but I think Vince Foster stories help her at this point. In their day, they may have caused doubt. Today, they will sound like what they always were … ridiculous.
Personally, I hope they make Vince Foster the core of their Swiftboat strategy against her.
Wilfred
To the extent that I’m a single issue candidate, viz. saving what’s left of the country and sending Junior and Pumphead to the double bottoms of hell, I’d take Hilary over anything the pigs will throw at her. Even so, she concedes too much to Aipac for my taste. The second issue for me is Palestine, and in that respect she’s no different than Lieberman. Go read her speech to Aipac and tell me how she differs from the rest of the death-to-brown-people crowd.
OxyCon
Is it me, or does it seem like the strategy these Repubs are employing in order to win the Repub nomination is to see who can act like the biggest right wing jagoff?
Tancredo wins, in my book.
sab
Is it just me. or does the Mad Hatter look exactly like Joe Lieberman?
The Other Steve
Have you ever tried to be honest with a bed-wetter? You can’t unless you bring a lot of napkins to clean up the mess.
myiq2xu
HRC is not my first choice but I would vote for her if she is the nominee and I think she can win.
Yes, she has “high negatives” in opinion polls but her approval rating is more positive than negative with very few undecideds
IOW, pretty much everybody has made up their minds about her, which means a slime and sleaze campaign will be less effective on her than it would on a virtual unknown like Obama.
In comparison to the GOP field, she’s a giant, but so are Obama, Edwards, Gore, Kucinich and maybe Dodd.
Biden and Richardson are decent guys but not presidential. They are charisma-challenged.
If the Democrats are smart they’ll try to get DK as the VP or put him high in the next administration’s cabinet. We need to groom our future contenders.
HRC and Obama might be too much for one ticket, regardless of which one is on top. I think Edawrds will be the likely VP if he can’t pull out the nomination.
I wish we could draft Gore as the nominee. He would be the best choice tactically and for the good of the country, and he fucking DESERVES it. He had it stolen from him in 2000 after all.
BTW- The GOP not only has a cast of midgets this time, they don’t have anyone good coming up from the minors either. I can’t think of a decent “rising star” in the GOP except possibley Jeb Bush, and that brand name has been thoroughly trashed.
The GOP politician who would have the best chance of winning in 2012 is ineligible for any job higher than his current position as Governator of Big Smoggy.
Whatever happened to guys like Bob Dole, Barry Goldwater or Jack Kemp? Decent, patriotic and relatively honest guys who I didn’t agree with but who didn’t scare the bejeepers out of me.
There’s nothing left but chickenhawks, crooks and nut-jobs in the “Party of Lincoln.”
myiq2xu
Joe Loserman looks and sounds exactly like Droopy Dog.
JWW
Hey TF,
Were you in that restaurant, if not, you have been bought. If the same question were asked of the Democratic side, the answer would be the same. The major problem is that we have very few “real” democrats or republicans in either party. Skewed as it may be, someone has to represent the will of the people. Where it comes from, who it comes from should not be the issue. We need an executive, legislative, and judicial branch that first and foremost looks to the constitution for guidence, listens to the people for change, and defends our nation without remorse.
Oh, have you ever lived in NH, or in the upper New England area. If so tell me, if not, don’t take stock in it. Remember NY is not part of NE, just kinda the same thought process, only more money.
grumpy realist
JWW–I think you’re confusing NYC with the rest of the state. Speaking as an Upper New York Stater (born and raised there) I can sincerely say that 99% of us Upstaters would be happy to saw off the lower tip that is called NYC and float it out to sea on a barge.
incontrolados
g.r., I have thought much the same about Cali in the past — on a national level, but with 2000, have thought better. (Also, given that I’m in Texas and politics here have changed monumentally.)
At this point, I’m only hoping that Dems in Texas can be taken seriously (I mean that) by other Dems.
I’m in a similar spot as Wilfred. If it comes down to it, I’ll vote Hills — that’s what me & mine called her in the ’90’s — no question. However, I am also in the Carter camp as far as Palestine is concerned. I’m hoping for another choice — some way to get a real peace process going — for some crazy reason I thought that Olmert’s acknowledgment of Israel’s nuclear capabilities would make an impact. It didn’t.
mrmobi
Well, myiq2xu, I find myself in complete agreement with you on this and the rest of your post. You can’t plan the kind of crazy the Party of Torture field is exhibiting, God Bless ’em.
It appears that a large contingent of these cretins believe the key to our future is an anti-science/pro-religious state policy with a parallel track of pre-emptive war. And tax cuts. Let’s all remember that no problem in our democracy cannot be solved by tax cuts.
At this point, I’m sincerely hoping for a Clinton/Obama ticket, I think that would be almost perfect, with a 180 of the order being the perfect, but apparently unattainable choice.
I guess I’m just ready for the stupid to end. Please god, allah, whoever the fuck is running this sideshow, let it end before we’re all living in a radioactive ditch.
Anne Laurie
I’ve always felt Chris Wallace was a tool, now I want to kick him in the teeth.
Yeah, but Chris is only employable because his daddy used to be Somebody in th’ Business. So I figure using CW was Faux News’ delicate homage to a certain prominent Republican office-holder against whom the charge of nepotism has also been used.
John Duncan
Grumpy R., people like you who think they speak for Upstate are bizarre. Upstate NY, where I’m from, is very diverse. You are referring to the “upstate” that HRC believes in, the Republican one in Utica and Amherst. You leave out everything north of Nyack on the Eastern side, including Albany, Hudson, the Adirondacks, and Plattsburgh. Most of us love NYC and know that it is the reason why NY State is not called Ohio. NYC provides the state with a large amount of its money, both in taxes and in trade. Rochester, Syracuse, and Albany wouldn’t exist if they weren’t connected to NYC by water. If you think the state would be better off looking like Buffalo, well, you can have that part.
chopper
you know what? that makes me mad.
aliceandbob
John Duncan, almost my entire family lives in or around Clinton County, NY. That’s about as upstate as you can get without actually being in Canada. I’ve lived there or visited regularly for almost 3 decades, and if you honestly think that most of the North Country (regardless of political affiliation, which is, as you said, diverse) wouldn’t gladly see NYC take a hike and take Vermont with it, you’ve been into some bad Michigan sauce. And for the record, Albany and anything else south of the thruway is only considered “upstate” by downstaters.
Jinchi
Here’s the first line of the Michael Scherer article Benen links to:
It always amazes me how many political columnists hate actually discussing issues. This is the first election I’ve seen where we got more than a couple of very scripted debates.
This guy gets paid to cover them and he’s whining about missing his favorite TV show.