1.) It is pretty clear what the most important story of the day of Petraeus’s testimony was in Greater Wingnuttia- MOVEON’s HEADLINE IN THE NY TIMES. I disapprove of the headline, but it upsets Hugh so much I may reconsider my position on the matter.
2.) Is it really hard to figure out that the gaggle of people in the committee chambers DRESSED IN PINK may be from the group CODE PINK and may try to protest during the testimony?
3.) Not that any of this matters in the debate about what to do in Iraq, but nine more dead soldiers today. On the upside, most of them had the decency to die in wrecks, so won’t have to count their bodies when we make charts in March 2008 to prove the surge is working.
4.) Consider this an open thread.
The Mechanical Eye
I approve of anything that makes poor Hugh Hewitt shake his pretty little head about those Slanderous Democrats.
Speaking of him, I think I’ve come to get his obsession with sports here.
DU
PaulW
If this is an open thread, I have to ask, do you have your West Virginia / USF tickets already? ;)
GO BULLS!
Perry Como
5) Russia is undermining our glorious progress in Iraq. I say we nuke Russia.
Tom Hilton
Those casualties are counted only if the injuries are to the back of the head, not the front of the head.
ThymeZone
Hardball’s Matthews, Politico’s Roger Simon, and the New Yorker’s Hendrik Hertzberg just finished a discussion in which they basically agreed that Larry Craig was given a raw deal, that the Republicans ought to welcome him back with a standing ovation as they apparently did to Vitter, that Mineapolis could better spend its money inspecting bridges rather than running queer stings in bathrooms, and that the best way to “roust” (their word) gay activity in public restrooms would be to hire an attendant and post signs stating that “loiterers will be referred to the police.” Matthews also suggested that the police use fear of exposure of being trapped in a sex sting as a way to coerce guilty pleas.
Can you imagine that? Really, can you imagine that?
Practical, sensible discussion on a cable tv show. Too bad you can’t get that on an obscure “political” blog now and then, but hey, who’s complaining?
Dug Jay
Scoring political “points” over the bodies of our dead soldiers. You guys could probably write the next ad for MoveOn.
Pb
Fixed.
incontrolados
It was my understanding that the tag for the good general orginated with the soldiers in his command. I’ll go look it up if requested. Otherwise, I’d rather not (long day, lazy etc.).
I heard a bit of Hugh on the way home. He was also whining about some congressman, but I can’t remember who or why (not that it matters — fill in your own blanks and you are likely to be correct).
Did you just wake up? Bush & Co.? Ring a bell?
whippoorwill
Your so stupid Dug Jay it makes my teeth hurt. When you insult someone please make sure you cite the right person. Tom Hilton quoted John Cole so please direct your moronic ravings in the right direction.
Phil
Ok Cole, since you can’t simply condemn the ad by MoveOn without making some lame aside about Hugh Hewitt (who you seem strangely obsessed with), then you’re officially WELL to the Left of the center. Even Blue Dog Democrats aren’t standing by this ad.
To criticize a 4 star general in the midst of the war and actually have the the nerve, the audacity to say he is BETRAYING his country is really a new low in American politics. And you don’t have the balls to condemn it without some pathetic little aside. Can you imagine Democrats saying Dwight Eisenhower was betraying his country while in the midst of WWII?
Well fuck you John Cole. Go join your fucking new friends in Moveon.org and fucking ban me for all I care. I used to have respect for you, even if I disagreed with you.
Now I have none. Go switch parties and go stand by your fucking anti-American fucking friends in MoveOn.org you piece of shit.
You want to politicize everything? Well all your new liberal fucking friends and candidates better disassociate themselves with MoveOn.org real fucking soon or they’re about to become REALLY fucking famous next year right before election time.
Phil
“Sen. John Kerry, D-Massachusetts, called the ad “over the top.”
Even John Kerry condemned the ad, without qualifiers. You haven’t Cole. Congratulations, you’re now to the Left of John Kerry, a man rated as the most liberal member of the Senate in the past.
You must be real proud of yourself Cole.
Xenos
I’m from Boston, and nearly everyone I know has met Kerry, and from the experience has concluded he is a jerk. This is the sort of faux-gentlemanly response, the jerk, that cost this country a chance for a sane president right now.
John Kerry is not the sort of guy anyone wants on their side in a knife fight. Let him ponder his position for a few days, and he will conclude that he liked the ad before he dismissed it.
And the ad is legit. Bush has abdicated his most important political role to a hand picked general – so it is fair game to go after the general who takes up a political position in uniform. Is Colin Powell excused for his falsehoods, even now that he admits them, and publicly regrets them? NFW.
incontrolados
Did Phil fill his fuck quota in that post or does he still have a few left over?
capelza
Ooohhhhh…threaty!
Bye.
John Cole
Hi. Retard. Scroll down:
You jackasses, when trying to portray me as a move on leftie, simply expose how stupid and out of touch you are with the entire country.
Pb
Did he ever really apologize for his role during the Vietnam war, let alone this one?
Mike S
Is Phil just a new name for Darrell. They both seem about as stupid.
Actually, that’s unfair to Darrell. He wasn’t stupid so much as he was dishonest. Phillup is simply a GOP cultist.
whippoorwill
Phil
The conservative movement has run it’s course and is dead,dead ,dead. Get over it, things will get better when the swelling goes down. Meantime, it’s slightly amusing to watch wingnut heads explode.
liberal
Phil blithered,
But he is betraying his country. Iraq is a lost cause, which was easily predicted before the invasion even began. Because Petreus is throwing even more American blood and treasure into this hopeless rathole, he is indeed betraying his country.
Pb
Heh, that was bullshit too; surprise!
demimondian
Wow. Phil, can you guys tell the truth about anything to do with politics? You lie about Kerry, you call a citizen doing his job (attempting to influence the nation’s policy — you know, like one is supposed to in a democracy?), you lie about what’s happening abroad…
Are you even telling the truth about your own name?
Phil
“Phil
The conservative movement has run it’s course and is dead,dead ,dead. Get over it, things will get better when the swelling goes down. Meantime, it’s slightly amusing to watch wingnut heads explode.”
Hey dipshit, go stick by your boys at MoveOn.org. Please do so, and you’ll see how dead the conservative movement really is.
And by the way dipshit, even AFTER the bridge collapse in Minnesota, the voters of Minnesota, a moderately left-leaning state, did NOT want taxes their taxes increased to pay for more infrastructure. As you know, I’m pretty right-wing and even I would have been in favor of higher taxes.
So believe whatever the fuck you want about the death of the conservative movement. It means nothing to me from apologists for the despicable MoveOn.org and as shown by an actual example above, is wishful thinking and nothing more.
The Iraq war is unpopular. That doesn’t make taxes, abortion on demand, giving up complete sovereignty to the UN, open borders and calling 4-star military generals traitors popular. So shove it up your ass dipshit.
capelza
Oh Phil is throwing a hissy. Let me see your hair flip as you stomp out the door.
Mike S
Phillup. I suggest you stick with Jeff, “I like paste,” Goldstein’s site. They like retarded over there.
John Cole
Well, in that case, it doesn’t matter that Bush and the Republicans have completely fucked up the war.
Mike S
The funny thing about the GOP cultists is that they are always looking for something shiny for distraction purposes. They know that this was nothing but a R move by the White House so they must find something to take attention away from it.
That stopped working after Katrina. There are slight flashes of it still but over all the public has figured these jack-asses out. But being idiots they will continue to try it and watch their last gasp of support finally give way.
Phil
“Well, in that case, it doesn’t matter that Bush and the Republicans have completely fucked up the war.”
To the Left, the war is entirely politics. For me personally, I’d rather lose some seats in ’08 and win then lose the war because it would help retain seats. I guess that’s the difference between you and me John. I care more about the country than I do about the politics.
And besides, in the battle of ideas – socialism vs capitalism, free enterprise vs federal regulation, low taxes vs high taxes, multiculturalism vs the melting pot, abortion on demand vs adoption, federalism vs centralized bureacracy, and on and on and on, when there’s a real actual debate, there’s no contest.
Phil
“Well, in that case, it doesn’t matter that Bush and the Republicans have completely fucked up the war.”
And John, in case I wasn’t clear, the point made was that the conservative movement was dying or dead. And yet here I stand, a “wing nut” to all of you, and yet the voters of Minnesota are to the right of me on tax issues, even AFTER a fucking bridge collapse.
That had nothing to do with Iraq John, not everything has to do with Iraq believe it or not.
Mike S
Yup, Phillup’s a Republican. Delusional to the core.
Plus, he’d rather force our soldiers into their deaths than admit that his Dear Leader completely fucked up the war from the run-up on through to today. And in order to save himself from the realization that he was an idiot for ever believing that this war was a good idea he’ll pull a Hewy Hewitt and call everyone that doesn’t give a Lewinski to this admin a traitor or some such thing.
Keep it up, jack-ass. You only make yourself look more stupid in the process.
Phil
And John, for what it’s worth, I apologize for not seeing your condemnation earlier and for swearing at you. It was sincere at the time because I believe we have really reached a new low in American politics with this MoveOn ad. I am genuinely concerned for my country and to see someone I disagreed with but respect take what I initially thought to be a disgraceful position was disappointing to say the least.
To see your condemnation was helpful, as I expected that you’d at least be reasonable enough to do so. So again, I apologize for what I said in the initial post.
capelza
MikeS…Phil is not a Republican, he was one of those carpetbaggers that hijacked the good name of that party. Please let’s be clear here. He’s taken a page out of Luntz’ handbook and made everything black or white, you’re with us or your a traitor, then vs, us, good and bad….of course not bothering to actually read Cole or anyone for that matter.
demimondian
No — you *claim* that they’re to the right of you, You, in grand wingnut tradition, didn’t actually present any data to support your anecdote.
Does that sound familiar to you?
capelza
Phil, you don’t consider the righties pushing the meme that the Clinton’s killed Vince Foster a low? That THIS is lower than THAT?
AnonE.Mouse
You’re spending too much time at the computer,Phil.You’re starting to see the whole world as binary.
Mike S
demimondian
Oh, capelza — that was truthy, not true. And besides, IOKIYAR.
incontrolados
Wow, I think he used up his quota of dipshit, too.
Spinning and twirling, spinning and twirling . . . like that pink elephant on the Simpsons.
t. jasper parnell
With Nixon there was the non-denial denial with the General Petraeus there is the non-answer answer.
Phil
“Phil, you don’t consider the righties pushing the meme that the Clinton’s killed Vince Foster a low? That THIS is lower than THAT?”
I’ve seen some low things in American politics, many by Republicans. Some of the Vince Foster stuff was ridiculous, as was the ads against Max Cleland. But ads against political opponents back in the days of Lincoln were even worse. So attack ads against politicians have always been around.
But I don’t believe that we have seen in the history of the nation an ad claiming that a 4-star military in charge protecting the nation was a traitor. This is new, this is different. It truly is a new low.
John Cole
Yeah, because a third party commercial is worse than delegates mocking a decorated soldiers war injuries at the RNC convention.
Xenos
I wonder how the junior officers feel about Petraeus going to congress and giving a policy speech. They probably have to wonder how honest he is being with them, too.
How many dead and wounded soldiers since he started the
surge18 month escalation? for a few ‘mini-benchmarks’?capelza
demi..truthy? Limbaugh pushed it himself. Still did, recently with his snide remarks about Fort Macy park.
John Cole
And btw- although I do not like the Betrayus label one bit, I completely agree that Petraeus needs to be open with the data used to justify continuing the surge.
From what I have seen, to date, he has not.
Bruce Moomaw
Anyone who didn’t harbor doubts about Petraeus’ personal honesty already — even after his ridiculously erroneous optimistic Sept. 2004 op-ed about a military program that he was directly in charge of, his stubborn refusal to reveal the actual sources of the statistics he presented today to claim progress, and the revelation that he and Crocker will allow themselves to be questioned only by Fox News reporters after their testimony — is cordially invited to take a look at those two slides from his PowerPoint presentation noted by Cole and Kevin Drum. The man is not only dishonest; he seems to be ludicrously, childishly dishonest in a manner rather reminiscent of a Dr. Seuss character.
capelza
Ah crap..now I’m really mad again. Max Cleland and that horrible Ann Coulter.
Yeah the Move-On ad was soooooo much worse than that. That’s sarcasm Phil.
whippoorwill
I hadn’t realized MoveOn got the wingnut panties in such a twist. That much rage has more to with deep and gut wrenching fear than anger. Phil, you just have to get in touch with your inner child before you completely lose your mojo. If it makes you feel any better the liberal movement died in 1980. Oddly, for the same reasons the conservative movement is dead. It couldn’t control it’s ideological excesses. Maybe liberals have learned something since then, we shall see.
Pb
Who are you going to believe, a General, or a bunch of Washington bureaucrats? Sure, the bureaucrats have their numbers and their fuzzy math–you can prove anything with numbers. But the General–well, he’s been on the ground. Got his boots on the ground. Hey, did I mention that he’s a General?
Phil
“Yeah, because a third party commercial is worse than delegates mocking a decorated soldiers war injuries at the RNC convention.”
Do you really want to go there John? The Democrats invited none other than Michael Moore into the press box at the DNC in 2004. Yes, the same Michael Moore who compared the guys killing US soldiers to the Minutemen.
t. jasper parnell
But don’t you see this is a general, why its like publically humiliating a sitting joint chief who accurately forecast the need for many more troops than the administration was using, what his name? Erik Shinsheki? Damn those moveon, oh wait it was Rummy and Co. How selective is your outrage?
demimondian
No, it isn’t MoveOn. What bothers Phil and his fellow ideologues is that there are people who aren’t ashamed to disagree with them. They’ve controlled America by making it shameful to dissent, and every time MoveOn or some other leftie org stands up and dissents without shame, it weakens their ability to say, as Phil has been saying “You should be ashamed of yourself.”
Well, Phil? Guess what? Whether or not MoveOn should be ashamed of themselves, they aren’t going to be intimidated by the likes of you or Hugh Hewitt or any of the other yellow elephants who make up the 101st Chairborne, and, in fact, the more you try to preach about their moral standing, the more you remind people of yours — or, rather, the lack thereof.
incontrolados
Around the bend he goes. . .
I’m with Bob. Victory or success should be obvious.
It’s complicated and complex is understood.
Good news shouldn’t have to be hyped.
Bruce Moomaw
Further notes on Petraeus’ level of honesty from Drum:
“Josh Marshall…notes that Petraeus told Congress that two intelligence agencies signed off on his methodology for calculating civilian death rates. That’s only two out of 18, which isn’t so hot, but he’d still like to know which ones they were. Me too. [He didn’t volunteer the identity of the two agencies — and no one on the committees thought to ask him, which confirms my opinion of the intelligence of the average Congressman — Moomaw.]
“For myself, I’ll just note the same thing I noted over the weekend: all the charts for civilian fatalities show basically the same trend: a big PRE-SURGE drop between December and March, NO progress from March through July, and then a modest drop in August. So Petraeus is hanging nearly his entire case on a single month.
“BONUS POWERPOINT NOTE: Slide #12 shows the readiness of the Iraqi army. Level 1 means ‘fully independent.’ Level 2 means ‘Iraqi lead with coalition support.’
“So, four years into this thing, how are we doing in getting Iraqi army units up to speed? Answer: at the beginning of the year we had 15 Level 1 units. Today we have 12. Level 2 units have gone from 78 to 83. Some progress.”
Scott
Favorite moment of the thread:
You jackasses, when trying to portray me as a move on leftie, simply expose how stupid and out of touch you are with the entire country.
…becuase John is the entire country.
capelza
Isn’t there an “law” like Godwin’s for when you bring up Michal Moore (unless, of course, you mention he is fat..)
If memory serves, Phil, Moore was denied credentials by the DNC at the convention. So I wouldn’t say they invited him.
John Cole
Sorry I didn;t slip in a BBQ reference for you, so it is clear why this eluded you. Lemme explain.
I consider myself to be pretty much center right. If they think I am the far left, they are completely out of touch.
Make sense now, or would it help if I slip in a beer or dick joke?
demimondian
Usually, that’s said “slip in a puddle of beer”
t. jasper parnell
In his disqust with the administration and his frustration with the prosecution of the war polling suggests that Cole is, if not the entire then at least a sizeable majority , of the country.
JWW
Comment # 4, by Tom Hilton.
???
Phil
“Isn’t there an “law” like Godwin’s for when you bring up Michal Moore (unless, of course, you mention he is fat..)
If memory serves, Phil, Moore was denied credentials by the DNC at the convention. So I wouldn’t say they invited him.”
Well then your memory serves incorrectly. Here’s a picture of Moore in the press box, right next to the worst President in the history of the nation, Jimmah’ Carter. So the notion that its not fair game to bring him up as representative of the Democrats is nonsense if YOU INVITE HIM INTO THE PRESS BOX OF YOUR PRESIDENTIAL NOMINATING CONVENTION. But John says its the Republicans who are nutty….
magisterludi
For some reason, I think Phil is pleasuring himself as he types.
John Cole
I share no love for Michael Moore, but would Phil like to go through the guest rosters at the 2004 DNC and RNC convention, and compare how many delegates and keynote speakers from each side are now in jail for corruption charges? Lewd conduct?
Mike S
Oh yeah, they are. Check out the GOP state convention here in CA. Arnold was telling people there that they needed to appeal to the center and main stream of the country. The “activists” said that he was wrong.
I cheered as I watched my state turn even more Democratic.
demimondian
As always, Phil omits the evidence — there’s no link in his post.
And why would George W. Bush attend a Democratic National Convention?
Mike S
Is it just me or is there no picture? Maybe Phillup’s nurse can turn his computer off now so he can get the rest he needs.
SGEW
No, seriously people. This “Phil” fellow appears to believe in this sort of thing quite sincerely. It is not shameful to hold strong opinions, and stick by them.
When you have been given false information, can no longer differentiate between good data and bad, and have been led to sincerely believe in an imminent existential threat to your entire way of life (i.e. “Islamo-fascism” [sic]), this sort of response is understandable, even reasonable. Wrong, agreed. Filled with a sense of pathos, perhaps. But not neccessarily grossly negligent, nor “retard[ed].” I might analogize it to those who believe in Creation “Science”: they are spectacularly wrong, but not automatically blame-worthy. Phil is not to blame for the Bush administration, beyond a sort of low-level empowerment complicity.
Besides, some of the antics on the “left” (e.g. MoveOn.org, A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition, Mrs. Sheehan, Mssrs. Moore and Penn, et. al.) leave me speechless in their, well, infantile silliness. Not that anyone on the left has done anything close to the hate-mongering genocidal evil that has been gleefully paraded as “conservative” thought by our current crop of right-wing fascist monsters, but there has been quite a bit of condemnable silliness by the left, one has to admit. For what it’s worth.
t. jasper parnell
Why are people irked? Go listen to Mickey Edwards.
demimondian
Actually, you know, I disagree. It is shameful to hold strong opinions when the weight of the evidence has long since shown them to be false. SO, yes, it’s shameful for Mike Huckabee to disbelieve in evolution. It was shameful for the President to stoop to trying to keep Terri Schiavo’s zombified corpse in its state of suspended animation. And, yes, it is shameful for Phil to keep repeating claims like
whippoorwill
So now Phil your equating Michael Moore sitting at the Democratic Convention with Republicans passing out purple bandaids to mock a war hero. This after a sorry ass group of once honorable veterans perjured themselves in the court of public opinion on the actions in combat of John Kerry, because they didn’t like what he said after the war. That’s a piss poor argument pal.
capelza
And Phil, just a quick google, including the Moore “watch” sites. Moore wasn’t in the “press box” dear, he was in the skybox of the former President, his personal guest. Big difference. Sorry.
Yeah, what IS it about thr right wingers needing to mock people who have Silver Stars, Bronze Stars, etc. Cleland, Kerry, hell, even Oliver Stone has a Bronze Star (but he’s a crazy, Hollywood LIEbral traitor). Where’s Confederate Yankee to defend the honour of these troops?
t. jasper parnell
In case you are too busy to watch:
incontrolados
Been there done that too many times. It’s not a *winning* argument . . . for either side. It’s best not to follow Phil there. He might fail to bring up Hinson, Bauman, Evans, Lukens, Strangeland (!) or Packwood.
Just sayin’ don’t go there.
Alexandra
Don’t I remember Republicans trashing genuine war heroes like GENERAL Wesley Clark and Max Cleland, for starters? John Kerry is a genuine idiot. Because Petraeus has absolutely gone out of his way to be a 4 star right wing hack. Hour long interview with Fox News and no credible journalists? Scaling back and revising how the report is going to be done? This report has been a foregone conclusion for MORE than 6 months. “Strategic patience” is just another way of saying we’ll do whatever the hell we want and to hell with you. By the way, any luck on catching Osama?
Bruce Moomaw
While it’s something of a judgment call to say whether Petraeus’ dishonesty rises to the level of actual treason, there can be no doubt whatsoever that he is engaged in serious monkey business. His presentation reminded me of the White Knight’s plan, in “Through the Looking Glass”, to “dye one’s whiskers green/ and always use so large a fan that they could not be seen.” Which is what one would pretty much expect of someone allowed to entirely write his own job appraisal.
As for “four-star generals” being dishonest in the past: well, shucks. This is an appropriate time to bring up My Lai and Abu Ghraib — to say nothing of the general idiocy of assuming that military bureaucrats are, for some mysterious reason, less dishonest than civilian bureaucrats.
Perry Como
9/11 CHANGED EVERYTHING!!!!11eleven
incontrolados
I may be in the minority here on this one, but “the worst”?
Carter was the first president that I wished I could vote for. To live eight years plus without Ronnie — he’s still here — would have been a blessing.
capelza
Alexandra, no argument from me that Kerry is an idiot, but he earned a fucking Silver Star, A Bronze Star, and those pesky Purple Hearts.
But the Cleland thing is the most shameful. Coulter’s behaviour on that one was so over the top I can’t believe she still gets published. Now THAT was shameful beyond belief. Petraeus is a politician, a partian one. The 4 stars should not sheld him from the abuse any other politician gets. Now if he had won a Sliver Star, or even a Purple Heart and some lefty were to mock that I’d call them on that, too.
That’s the weird thing. Do righties think they handed those things out like candy in Vietnam?
t. jasper parnell
Why real American’s find the current administration a threat to liberty:
t. jasper parnell
Sure they mock the service of those who were wounded or worse in another lost cause but at least they leave alone those charge with protecting the country and military in time of war, oh wait.
t. jasper parnell
And, finally, it is not like King God General P has a history of misrepresenting reality.
t. jasper parnell
So wait, are retired general the sort of commie symps engaged in childish name calling?
R. Murcoch, that commie symp ownerof Fox News — long may its flag staff wave — owns the Times of London.
TenguPhule
No, that would have been Republicans equating a 1 limbed veteran with OBL and winning his seat using that tactic.
Betray-us has earned his name by putting the Republican Empire over the USA. And it will stick to him till the day he dies and follow him into history.
TenguPhule
Truth hurts Phil. Grin and bear it, because it’s only getting started.
TenguPhule
Phil’s irony of the day.
DougJ
I wouldn’t have used that MoveOn headline, but I know a lot of ex-military people who would. Petraeus did not distinguish himself today.
I’m left with the lingering feeling that he’s selling his troops down the river for a seat on the board of directors of the Carlyle Group.
TenguPhule
Phil does some good spoof.
TenguPhule
Right, the Swiftboats don’t ring any bells in Phil’s tower.
Try again.
DougJ
And btw- although I do not like the Betrayus label one bit.
It’s coming from ex-military people you would respect, people who know Petraeus personally.
TenguPhule
Ronald Reagan? Oh, you mean W. Bush.
Big spenders, arrogant lawbreakers, only Reagan was smooth enough to bullshit his way out of it.
TenguPhule
Corrected.
One can betray the people who you are supposed to lead without being a traitor in the legal sense of the word.
Betray-us is the fucker who climbs his way using the dead bodies of the men under him.
Pb
Yes, the same Michael Moore who was also at the RNC… go peddle your straw elsewhere, Phil.
cd6
Good thing our forces in Iraq aren’t being led by General “Ruck Fepublicans” or shit would really be hitting the fan.
incontrolados
However, none of the ones going ape-shit over it have served. If I have overstated — then they disagree with those who have.
The Betray-us tag is not new.
Pb
Seems so; here’s a post about it from March ’07:
Punchy
Comedy Cole, PUL-EEEEASE don’t ban this joker. This shit just doesn’t write itself. I’m not sure I’ve seen material this funny ever on this blog.
I hope Phil is here every day.
rachel
Punchy, wouldn’t you rather argue with somebody who has two brain cells functioning or at least is well-intentioned?
Randolph Fritz
Read what moveon.org published here. It is hard for me to escape a belief that, in fact, the generals who have been involved in this war are, in fact, breaking their oaths to uphold the constitution. It is odd that there have been so few resignations-in-protest from principled members of the top brass; off the top of my head, I don’t recall any. This administration has gotten so many people to betray their ideals, it is enough to make one believe in black magic. BTW, the more this gets talked about, the more it gets heard. Maybe the wingnuts are doing their opponents a favor.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
Uhhhh, link? Look, educate yourself so you don’t come off as a simpleton. This old Cleland whine is still a lie foisted on you ever-naive lefties by the sore loser Cleland staff. It will never be true just because you repeat it a thousand times. There was no “equating,” no “morphing,” and Cleland was beaten because he voted too much like Ted Kennedy (which was the most devastating ad against him) and not enough like the people of Georgia.
Irony alert! Or is leaving out the evidence OKIYAD?
Pooh
Methinks Phil demonstrates why Drum and Benen are right and the harping on the MoveOn thing is stupid. Which side of the debate is helped when you say “the people who say he’s full of shit are really full of shit!!!!one111!!!11!!11!”. It may be unsavory, but I can’t say that I don’t enjoy watching them get a taste of their own Bitch Slap politics.
TenguPhule
Irony of the Day from EEEL.
Pity you won’t follow your own advice.
liberal
Phil wrote,
First, let’s be clear on one thing—it’s not a war, it’s an occupation.
Second, we “won” the war, in the sense that we invaded Iraq and toppled the state there, which was Bush’s goal. We’ve “lost” the occupation, in the sense that the nation-building project the US set out on is failing, and cannot succeed.
And besides, in the battle of ideas – socialism vs capitalism,…
The only socialism I see anyone supporting in the US is the socializing of losses whenever a capitalist entity that’s too large to fail, fails.
…free enterprise vs federal regulation,…
LOL! Without regulation, there would be no “free entereprise.”
…low taxes vs high taxes, …
But Bush hasn’t lowered taxes. He’s simply postponed them, to when the day the bill finally comes due. Then, the taxes will be paid either by (a) raising tax rates, or (b) monetizing the debt.
…multiculturalism vs the melting pot,…
Yeah. The Republicans are oh so pro-melting pot.
abortion on demand vs adoption…
Right. Why should a rape victim be able to get an abortion? The State should force her to have the child.
liberal
Phil wrote,
But that principle is clearly false, if we assume that principle should lie at a reasonable level of abstraction. Which in this case means the principle, if held true, should apply to any country.
So, with that in mind, would a Soviet citizen have been wrong to say that a top Red Army general was betraying his country if he insisted on “staying the course” in Afghanistan?
And you don’t have the balls to condemn it without some pathetic little aside. Can you imagine Democrats saying Dwight Eisenhower was betraying his country while in the midst of WWII?
They didn’t, because he wasn’t.
Anne Laurie
Can you imagine Democrats saying Dwight Eisenhower was betraying his country while in the midst of WWII?
Speaking of education… when I was learning history, the President under whom Eisenhower served during WWII *was* a Democrat, namely FDR (and, later, Truman). And the Republicans who felt America had been “lied into the effete Old World’s conflict by the syphilitic crypto-Jew Roosevelt, ex Rosenfeld” also published dark hints in their beleagured media outlets (such as the Wall Street Journal) that the non-partisan Eisenhower was too bovinely stupid to keep the crafty Brits and snobby Frenchmen from wasting young American soldiers’ lives in pursuit of their vile imperialistic agendas. (Although, in those more ‘innocent’ or at least mealy-mouthed days, the rumors that Eisenhower was too busy humping his pretty driver to pay attention to his actual job could only be passed by word of mouth… )
Has this information been declared inoperative, or is Phil as wrong about the history of the twentieth century as he is about the twenty-first?
Perry Como
Just like a libtard, comparing the US to the USSR. Listen up moonbat, the US doesn’t kidnap people in the middle of the night and whisk them away to secret prisons to be tortured. We don’t hold our own citizens for years without charge, denying them a right to a speedy trial. We don’t spy on our own citizens without warrants. We are nothing like the USSR. We have a constitution that is always the law of the land.
We’re the United States of America, the shining beacon of Freedom and Democracy throughout the world!
NYT
Here is Charles Krauthammer all but accusing six retired Generals of treason last year:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/04/the_generals_dangerous_whisper.html
“But that makes the generals’ revolt all the more egregious. The civilian leadership of the Pentagon is decided on Election Day, not by the secret whispering of generals.
We’ve always had discontented officers in every war and in every period of our history. But they rarely coalesce into factions. That happens in places such as Saddam’s Iraq, Pinochet’s Chile or your run-of-the-mill banana republic. And when it does, outsiders (including United States) do their best to exploit it, seeking out the dissident factions to either stage a coup or force the government to change policy.
That kind of dissident party within the military is alien to America. Some other retired generals have found it necessary to rise to the defense of the current administration. Will the rest of the generals, retired or serving, now have to declare themselves as to which camp they belong? “
Xenos
Is it OK to criticize a 2 star General? Because without his willingness to spout RNC and WH talking points, that is all Petraeus would be.
I happen to think pretty highly of Petraeus, but in the last couple years he has crossed a line that officers should not cross. This has cost him his credibility. In the NY Post/Rush Limbaugh culture the GOP has given us, this childish slur seems small beer. Your pearl-clutching just reveals you as a jock-sniffer.
over_educated
Phil- Why do you hate America?
Seriously, why even bother to engage these retards? If its not the “Betrayus” ad it will be something else they can latch on to to accuse “liberals” (i.e. anyone who opposes this idiotic war) of “betraying our troops.”
Whatever. This dog and pony show will most assuredly work because the Dems are a bunch of gutless pussies. A few hundred more American soldiers will (I would mention the Iraqi civilians as well, but they are fucked whether we stay or go,which by the way, is on our heads) die over the next six months. And Bush will be able to kick the can down the road until he retires from office and can make a fortune off of speaking tours railing against the next President for “surrendering” when we were “on the verge of victory.”
The only bright side about this whole mess is that it will be a while before the winguts re-take power (when my mother, who has voted Republican since 1968 switches party affiliation, you are rightly and truly fucked). Then again Americans have short memories, so who knows.
jake
Fixed for Sept. 11th.
Shorter Phil: Go on, play with your new friends! See if I care! [sniff]
I hereby declare Phil a stalker, rather than a troll. He doesn’t just want to mock John or show off his amazing stock of ignorance, he wants to mock John until he comes to his senses and returns to the fold.
Sad, in a creepy sort of way.
Cassidy
We also don’t liquidate our middle class or our educated. All attempts at humor aside, your parallel doesn’t fit.
Kinda like the military is an arm of the GOP, because of a few people. And how selective is your outrage?
Xanthippas
That’s pretty much the funniest comment on this thread. Unintentionally, of course.
DougJ
Thanks for providing evidence to back that up.
You guys are very convincing.
The Other Steve
Yes, thankfully… Unless David Horowitz and the Republican Committee on Culture get’s their way.
Cassidy
In some people’s perfect world, you’re right.
chopper
jesus, phil, you’re just an idiot.
in some blind rage, you attempt to continuously portray john as some kind of ‘lefty’, which apparently involves 1) not reading half the shit he writes, 2) calling out Tim as if he’s john, 3) citing and misreading polls of people john doesn’t even agree with, and 4) just generally being retarded.
this has to be spoofery, and all in all it aint half bad.
chopper
i know. someone hasn’t been around politics for very long.
jenniebee
No, but Ike wasn’t a political player. He never even voted while he was in uniform because he believed so strongly in civilian control of the military.
Can I imagine a general betraying his country in a time of war? You bet your sweet bippy I can.
It is odd that in a country whose first great traitor, a man whose name is synonymous in this country with treason (in the way that Quisling is for the rest of the world) thinks that it is beyond the pale to suggest that members of the military might allow their own egos or other self-interests to force foreign policies antithetical to those being formulated by people who actually have the constitutional authority to drive foreign policy, or at least might take part in politicization of a war. It’s not like we don’t have some recent examples to draw on there.
Jesus, people, they’re just men and women. They’re not gods.
Krista
No kidding. Watergate, anybody?
demimondian
Neither did the Soviets. You’re confusing Leninism with Maoism; they’re quite different beasts.
Evinfuilt
Research done (similiar to GAO), this research is given to the White House.
White House created report. Hands to Petraeus.
He goes in front of Congress and calls it his report.
He goes on the propaganda network for followup.
That is betraying the nation. This was not “his” report, it was Bush’s report, delivered by a General. No 4-star general should ever be put in a political situation. He went out looking for it, after all he was the only one willing to do Bush’s work. All the other Generals quit or refused the job.
We have a political hack for a General. Its our right to expose it, and get someone in there who matters and will make a difference.
Cassidy
Stalin…Kulaks…
Randolph Fritz
The other thought which comes to mind is how often people like Rush, Malkin, Coulter, and Hannity have called liberals “traitors”–Coulter even wrote a book titled Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism, which was well-received on the right. Under the circumstances, I think the moveon.org ad is far from unreasonable.
demimondian
Ummm…tell me, again, why eliminating the Ukrainian peasantry has anything to do with the well-educated or the middle class again?