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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Military / 29%

29%

by John Cole|  September 12, 20078:52 am| 82 Comments

This post is in: Military

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Two of the seven NCO’s who penned the op-ed in the NY Times (and promptly had their loyalty and patriotism questioned) are now dead:

The Op-Ed by seven active duty U.S. soldiers in Iraq questioning the war drew international attention just three weeks ago. Now two of the seven are dead.

Sgt. Omar Mora and Sgt. Yance Gray died Monday in a vehicle accident in western Baghdad, two of seven U.S. troops killed in the incident which was reported just as Gen. David Petraeus was about to report to Congress on progress in the “surge.” The names have just been released.

Gen. Petraeus was questioned about the message of the op-ed in testimony before a Senate committee yesterday.

The controversial Times column on Aug. 19 was called “The War As We Saw It,” and expressed skepticism about American gains in Iraq. “To believe that Americans, with an occupying force that long ago outlived its reluctant welcome, can win over a recalcitrant local population and win this counterinsurgency is far-fetched,” the group wrote.

It closed: “We need not talk about our morale. As committed soldiers, we will see this mission through.”

Depressing. And for what?

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Reader Interactions

82Comments

  1. 1.

    Face

    September 12, 2007 at 9:03 am

    And for what?

    To destroy Iran. Let’s get it on. Microwave the Mullahs. Radiate the ragheads. Incinerate the insurgents. Kickstart the ass-kicking. Annihilate the Arabs. Pulverize the Persians. Firebomb Farsi.

    I’ve got plenty of slogans. Game on.

  2. 2.

    Wilfred

    September 12, 2007 at 9:11 am

    “As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods; They kill us for their sport.” What a sad bit of cosmic irony. Fuck Bush forever.

  3. 3.

    The Sanity Inspector

    September 12, 2007 at 9:13 am

    RIP to the brave warriors. It still matters who wins this war, though.

  4. 4.

    scarshapedstar

    September 12, 2007 at 9:25 am

    Maybe I’m just cynical at this point, but I half-expect them to admit 6 months from now that everyone involved in the “vehicle accident” was shot three times in the forehead from 10 meters and then their uniforms were burned. And maybe it will turn out that the “vehicle” was actually a cellar somewhere.

  5. 5.

    Punchy

    September 12, 2007 at 9:29 am

    Maybe I’m just cynical at this point, but I half-expect them to admit 6 months from now that everyone involved in the “vehicle accident” was shot three times in the forehead from 10 meters and then their uniforms were burned. And maybe it will turn out that the “vehicle” was actually a cellar somewhere.

    Between Pat Tillman and General GOP, this isn’t so tinfoil hat as it seems.

  6. 6.

    PK

    September 12, 2007 at 9:36 am

    The first thought that crossed my mind on reading the news of their deaths was if they had been deliberately killed because of the op-ed.
    Five years ago such a thought would not have even occured. Now I would not put anything past this Govt. Torture, no regard for human life or rule of law, looting (the US treasury), secrecy and general contempt for the people who it is supposed to serve. This govt is fully capable of murder of two critics if thinks it can get away with it! After all it has gotten away with everything else so far!

  7. 7.

    semper fubar

    September 12, 2007 at 9:41 am

    Well, I’m glad it’s not just me whose first thought was “our government probably killed them.”

    At what point does ‘conspiracy theory’ become ‘conventional wisdom?’

  8. 8.

    ThymeZone

    September 12, 2007 at 9:43 am

    Apparently Petraeus doesn’t know what these people died for.

    Asked twice yesterday by John Warner, and later in a press briefing, whether the war was making America safer, the best the general could come up with was “I don’t know.”

    If the Republicans on the Hill needed cover to make a break from this disastrous administration and vote with Dems to start denying Bush his pony, this might be the time.

  9. 9.

    Lupin

    September 12, 2007 at 9:45 am

    For Oil.

    For the Empire.

    Vale atque Ave.

  10. 10.

    Zifnab

    September 12, 2007 at 9:46 am

    Sgt. Omar Mora and Sgt. Yance Gray died Monday in a vehicle accident in western Baghdad, two of seven U.S. troops killed in the incident which was reported just as Gen. David Petraeus was about to report to Congress on progress in the “surge.” The names have just been released.

    I wonder if they would have gotten counted on Petreaus’s nifty power point slides if the accident had happened six months earlier. I mean, do we count vehicle accidents as war casualties? Do we count you if you are in western Baghdad? They did write for the NYTimes so perhaps we can just label them as insurgents.

    Sorry if this sounds kinda callous, but apparently since the start of the Republican War On Common Sense, these questions aren’t entirely invalid.

  11. 11.

    Xanthippas

    September 12, 2007 at 9:53 am

    For some reason hearing this just makes me want to cry. I don’t know why, because it’s not as if these soldiers were any more or less “important” than any other soldier who has died in that war, and it’s not as if it’s any more tragic because they opposed it. Maybe they represent to me everything we’ve lost over there. I honestly don’t know.

  12. 12.

    Andrew

    September 12, 2007 at 9:55 am

    Soon, we will start hearing about bullet and shrapnel accidents, which will classified as non-combat deaths.

  13. 13.

    Punchy

    September 12, 2007 at 10:03 am

    I was under the impression these soliders were part of the 82nd who were leaving Iraq? I guess “leaving” was subjective, eh? So they’re still not state-side?

  14. 14.

    John Rohan

    September 12, 2007 at 10:23 am

    This is a tragedy, no matter what their feelings toward the war were. But I just have to ask – would it make you feel any better if they were killed in a vehicle accident back in the states instead?

    This comment thread is sheer lunacy.

    The Government killed them?? They died for oil? (where has the US ever taken any of the Iraqi oil??)

    Let me guess: 9/11 was an inside job? Elvis is still alive too?

    Sometimes, the amount of sheer stupidity on this website just boggles my mind.

    Oh and I can just see you responses already – “another rightwingnut spoiling blaspheming against our religion – the Church of BDS” (look up the acronym, if you don’t know it)

  15. 15.

    whippoorwill

    September 12, 2007 at 10:25 am

    After reading reports of General PeDeity’s performance yesterday you could say depressing, or existential rage, or alternating states of each. Yes, I did call the General a name, I don’t think he is telling the whole truth which is the only truth when assessing a bloody stalemate war. By that I mean HE doesn’t believe the agenda he is selling for the Iraq war. I did believe General Abizaid and Casey’s were giving the assessments they believed in, especially that more US troops were the last thing Iraq needed. At this stage of the nightmare, no one rightfully gets to have an agenda, not Generals nor Presidents or anybody else. So General P. stop yer lying and tell us the truth.

  16. 16.

    PK

    September 12, 2007 at 10:26 am

    John Warner’s question to Perteus was plain dumb! It is not Patreus’s job to make America safe! Patreus is doing the job the civilians in charge have given him. Its fools like Warner who don’t challenge Bush and stop this war who are making America unsafe!
    Patreus could have answered that America is safe from Iraqi aggression, that Iraq will not use WMD or nuclear weapons against the US. The millitary fulfilled its goals in Iraq. Now its being asked to do the impossible.
    If Warner had the balls he would ask Bush this question!

  17. 17.

    Shinobi

    September 12, 2007 at 10:26 am

    Reading that quote from Mora’s mother just broke my heart:

    Olga Capetillo said that by the time Mora submitted the editorial, he had grown increasingly depressed. ‘I told him God is going to take care of him and take him home,’ she said. ‘But yesterday is the darkest day for me.’”

    Dark days for everyone in this country when the idea of the government killing soldiers who dissent doesn’t seem that far fetched.

  18. 18.

    Andrew

    September 12, 2007 at 10:31 am

    Shorter John Rohan: I haven’t paid any attention to the last six years.

  19. 19.

    Fledermaus

    September 12, 2007 at 10:36 am

    Well, I’m glad it’s not just me whose first thought was “our government probably killed them.”

    I kind of have a hunch about that too. I mean not a bullet to the head out behind the chemical sheds, but more in the way that generals for generations have always put troublemakers in the place where they are most liekly to get killed.

  20. 20.

    Blue Neponset

    September 12, 2007 at 10:56 am

    But I just have to ask – would it make you feel any better if they were killed in a vehicle accident back in the states instead?

    Yes. They died as a result of the war. It is hard for me to understand how you can’t comprehend the difference between a random car accident a few blocks from your house and a car accident while thousands of mies away from home in a war zone.

    I guess that kind of lack of empathy is a conservative thing.

  21. 21.

    cleek

    September 12, 2007 at 10:56 am

    put me in the ‘no conspiracy’ column.

  22. 22.

    Jake

    September 12, 2007 at 11:03 am

    You don’t need to get conspiratorial. Take group of people, put them a hostile, dangerous enviroment (and that’s just the weather). Eventually the stress of the heat, always having to be on alert, never knowing what the fuck will happen next, will start to dull their senses and their reaction times. Some will die in accidents, some will forget to drink enough water, some will be too tired to notice that pile of trash by the road.

    Expect more of this shit in the future. Some pants-wetting sacks of crap like to pretend that anyone who suggests soldiers need a rest every so often is a troop hater, so they’ll say with all seriousness that no one could have possible foreseen that extended deployments would grind the military to dust, shrug and wait for history to judge them.

    Oh and I can just see you responses already –

    We love you John R. and wish you only the best.

  23. 23.

    caustics

    September 12, 2007 at 11:05 am

    Let me guess: 9/11 was an inside job? Elvis is still alive too?

    In related news, 40 percent of Republicans still believe Saddam was involved in 9/11:

    But finally, the belief in what isn’t true brings us back to the quality of information – to where it comes from and how it is perceived. Norbert Schwarz, a psychology professor and researcher at the University of Michigan’s Institute for Social Research, has conducted research (reported in this Washington Post article) that suggests that some people who are told something is false may actually remember it as being true. He measured the misperception within 30 minutes of the receipt of the information, and found that misperceptions may actually become stronger over time.

    Thus we have Petraeus going on Fox News to re-iterate how things are just peachy in Iraq. See how this works?

  24. 24.

    Dreggas

    September 12, 2007 at 11:05 am

    well after these TRAITORS wrote that Op-ED for the enemy they probably died on their way to plant an IED to further injure and demoralize the TROOPZ!

    [/end snark]

    That made me throw up in my mouth a little but damn it if that’s not the way the fucking idiots think.

  25. 25.

    John Cole

    September 12, 2007 at 11:11 am

    Put people on their 3rd or fourth tour, shorten the amount of time in between tours, lengthen the duration of tyours, and it should surprise no one that lots of accidents like this are being reported lately.

    Jake is absolutely right- you don’t need to get conspiratorial, and for those of you who have, it is a little embarassing, but I can not control how you feel about the government. They are indirectly responsible for putting them in this situation, but they are not directly responsible for their deaths.

    As a side note, as far as the chart makers go, these deaths are all ‘freebies’ since they do not get counted since they were accidents. In the future, the way casualties are counted should probably be looked at, as there are far more accidents in wartime than in peacetime.

  26. 26.

    canuckistani

    September 12, 2007 at 11:18 am

    This is a tragedy, no matter what their feelings toward the war were. But I just have to ask – would it make you feel any better if they were killed in a vehicle accident back in the states instead?

    Good question. How fast do people drive around Georgia to avoid getting killed by roadside bombs and RPG’s?

    Tell you what, JR. We’ll drop the conspiracy theories when you tell us what happened to Pat Tillman. Oh yeah.. you can’t. It’s a secret that no one is allowed to know about.

  27. 27.

    Tsulagi

    September 12, 2007 at 11:19 am

    Depressing.

    Yeah. Of the seven, two dead and one WIA with a serious head injury. RIP SSG Gray and SGT Mora. Get well SSG Murphy.

    And for what?

    For the continued vanity of one gutless spoiled brat who likes to tell fart jokes in the Oval Office. And for opportunities like this prissy PMSing rant to show all fellow rub and tuggers how quick they can thump their chests for their newest designated saint. A saint who drew a blank when asked “and for what?” Note to brilliant patriot warriors painfully wounded by an ad: Take the tampon out of your ass, your brain will thank you for it.

    Saw a clip of Petraeus being asked by Warner if America would be safer by ‘winning’ in Iraq. His response was fucking amazing. Later he tried to save it by saying he hadn’t thought about it because he didn’t have time as he was constantly looking down focused on the mission. You’re trying to tell me, general, that you didn’t take a reflective moment to ponder why your ass at that moment was sitting on a shitter in Iraq? Unbelievable.

    Won’t call Petraeus “BetrayUs,” but I’m beginning to think he’s a whole lot more General Courtney Massengale than General Sam Damon. Since you don’t have a clue about the value of the mission to your country, general, let me help you with something else since you don’t have time. You’re now the military face of OIF. A potential designated fall guy. Don’t be surprised if another Friedman unit or two from now if your charts are getting all messed up, you don’t hear “not my fault!” from a former male prep school cheerleader. He’s got honor and integrity like that.

  28. 28.

    whippoorwill

    September 12, 2007 at 11:19 am

    Sometimes the amount of sheer stupidity on this website just boggles the mind

    As opposed to ;

    But I just have to ask-would it make you feel better if they were killed in a vehicle accident back in the states instead.

  29. 29.

    canuckistani

    September 12, 2007 at 11:21 am

    Jake is absolutely right- you don’t need to get conspiratorial, and for those of you who have, it is a little embarassing, but I can not control how you feel about the government. They are indirectly responsible for putting them in this situation, but they are not directly responsible for their deaths.

    In reality, I agree with you John, but I’m not going to go on the record to say “the government would never do that”. I’ve never heard anyone speak those words and be right.

  30. 30.

    KCinDC

    September 12, 2007 at 11:22 am

    Yes, John Rohan, we’re all quite familiar with “BDS”. You’re hardly the first true believer we’ve seen using it to dismiss any criticism of Our Leader and his blessed war.

  31. 31.

    Fe E

    September 12, 2007 at 11:22 am

    You don’t need to get conspiratorial. Take group of people, put them a hostile, dangerous enviroment (and that’s just the weather). Eventually the stress of the heat, always having to be on alert, never knowing what the fuck will happen next, will start to dull their senses and their reaction times. Some will die in accidents, some will forget to drink enough water, some will be too tired to notice that pile of trash by the road

    Bingo.

    Of course John also just said this, but hey, I’m at work and con only check in every so often.

    I think the most glaring example of what continous combat stress can do to a superlative fighting force is what happened to the Japanese Naval Air Forces in WWII. They started out without peer, but they stayed in Combat until they died, or didn’t care one way or the other. In the 1940s the US knew that people lost their edge and get sloppy if they never see a light at the nedn of the tunnel and rotated out the guys regularly.

    Add this point to the heap of WWII analogies that Bush and Co. either don’t know or come down on exactly the wrong side of.

  32. 32.

    Fe E

    September 12, 2007 at 11:25 am

    Yeah, I’d also have to add (tragically I think) that just because you don’t HAVE to get conspirational, doesn’t mean that, well, maybe you should.

  33. 33.

    The Other Steve

    September 12, 2007 at 11:28 am

    Oh and I can just see you responses already – “another rightwingnut spoiling blaspheming against our religion – the Church of BDS” (look up the acronym, if you don’t know it)

    I’m confused. I thought you suffered from BDS.

  34. 34.

    PK

    September 12, 2007 at 11:30 am

    John rohan

    Remember jessica Lynch? or
    Pat Tilman?
    Valerie Plame?
    -WMDs in Iraq?
    -Iraqi nuclear weapons programme?
    -Kidnapping people and sending them to be tortured in third countries?
    -Secret prisons?
    -Spying on its own citizens?
    -Trying to get a hospitalized AG to sign onto illegal activities?
    -Torture?
    And to even think that such nice people would resort to murder is Lunacy. We should all trust the govt blindly.

    Sometimes the amount of sheer stupidity of people like you just boggles my mind!

  35. 35.

    The Other Steve

    September 12, 2007 at 11:33 am

    Yes, John Rohan, we’re all quite familiar with “BDS”. You’re hardly the first true believer we’ve seen using it to dismiss any criticism of Our Leader and his blessed war.

    The BDS defense is nice, because you don’t actually have to deal with reality or facts.

  36. 36.

    Lupin

    September 12, 2007 at 11:35 am

    Mr. Rohan:

    http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2132569.ece

    Iraq’s oil reserves, the third-largest in the world, were supposed to be thrown open for large-scale exploitation by US oil companies under a controversial law which, I gather, is still a top priority of this Administration.

  37. 37.

    AkaDad

    September 12, 2007 at 11:38 am

    Sometimes, the amount of sheer stupidity on this website just boggles my mind.

    That’s coming from someone who believes BDS is an actual medical condition…

  38. 38.

    Tayi

    September 12, 2007 at 11:43 am

    So far, no one I know personally has died in Iraq; most of the people I knew in the Army got sent to Korea, but I don’t know when they might get ‘redeployed’ to a battle zone. I hate hearing the names of soldiers who’ve died because I’m afraid that someday soon I’ll see someone up there that I used to know. I realize that I get weepy about this for a lot of complicated reasons, but, the biggest reason, I think, is that death is a hell of a lot scarier when it’s personal.

    I hope that, if nothing else good comes from the deaths of these men, people all over the country who read their article will realize that death is personal. That every soldier who’s died is a real person, with their own thoughts and loyalties and loves.

    I think that if enough people realized what exactly it means to send someone else to die in a foreign country, this war would end.

  39. 39.

    Andrew

    September 12, 2007 at 11:55 am

    Good post, Tsulagi.

    A potential designated fall guy.

    There’s no “potential” here. He is the fall guy.

  40. 40.

    Bubblegum Tate

    September 12, 2007 at 12:07 pm

    He is the fall guy.

    Should we just start calling him Lee Majors now?

  41. 41.

    David

    September 12, 2007 at 12:36 pm

    Just perusing the right-leaning sites on Mr Cole’s blogroll to read the reactions to the deaths of these two young men…

    silence. Sad, but expected.

  42. 42.

    Bruce Moomaw

    September 12, 2007 at 12:36 pm

    When a general is explicitly asked “Is [such-and-such a] war making America safer?” and replies (while looking straight at his questioner) “I don’t know, Senator”, that’s a pretty straightforward exchange, you know. It’s rather hard to say that the general didn’t know what he was being asked because (as he insisted with a straight face afterwards} he was Distracted at the time. The only remotely plausible reason for his suddenly changing his tune afterwards is that, a few seconds after those syllables escaped his lips, he started thinking about what such public disagreement with the Boss might do to his carefully planned future career.

  43. 43.

    The Sanity Inspector

    September 12, 2007 at 12:40 pm

    Iraq’s oil reserves, the third-largest in the world, were supposed to be thrown open for large-scale exploitation by US oil companies under a controversial law which, I gather, is still a top priority of this Administration.

    Luckily for them, proggs don’t need oil. They ride the bus.

    If it was oil that this war was about, we could have simply cut the same immoral deals with Saddam that the Europeans did, and saved everyone a lot of pain.

  44. 44.

    PK

    September 12, 2007 at 12:59 pm

    Just one point. From my posts it sounds as if I believe the two men were murdered. I don’t think that.
    My point is that this administration has created such an atmosphere of lawlessness, where there is no punishment for the most egregious actions, that you get the feeling that they would have no compunction in getting rid of their critics.
    There does not have to be a conspiracy. Some one in command may just get it into his head that a good way of getting rid of trouble makers is to deliberately send them on a dangerous job. Or maybe it was just an accident.
    My point is how will we ever get to know the truth? Can we trust or believe what they say?
    You don’t have to be a conspiracy theorist to distrust these people.

  45. 45.

    Buddy

    September 12, 2007 at 1:16 pm

    I agree with all the sentiments expressed therein(except dumdass RH). I am so tired and depressed talking about this utter sheer stupidity!

  46. 46.

    DougJ

    September 12, 2007 at 1:33 pm

    Jake is absolutely right- you don’t need to get conspiratorial,

    I sort of agree, but there’s a reason people get conspiratorial about the Bush crowd. It’s distrust born of experience not of paranoia.

    I’m very, very troubled by the handling of Pat Tillman’s death, for example. I don’t think it’s clear that he wasn’t murdered to keep his anti-Iraq war views quiet. Sorry if that sounds nutty, but if you review the case, you’ll probably think the same way.

  47. 47.

    Pb

    September 12, 2007 at 1:38 pm

    Whether by conspiracy or by coincidence and stress and strain, we’ve had a couple of large (and thus relatively rare) non-hostile accidents recently: the helicopter that fell out of the sky late last month (apparently this was being investigated), and now the 5 ton truck that flew off of an elevated highway this month. I’ll be interested in the details, especially seeing as how the military sometimes hasn’t given us the whole story in the past–that is, when they weren’t blatantly covering up the truth, outright lying about the circumstances, and then using those lies to falsely sell the war and protect superior officers from further investigation. You know what would make me less suspicious? Honesty. Transparency. Oversight. Accountability. But until then, no, no more free passes to the military–why should I pay them to lie to me? Why should anyone?

  48. 48.

    John Rohan

    September 12, 2007 at 1:57 pm

    caustics Says:

    In related news, 40 percent of Republicans still believe Saddam was involved in 9/11:

    LOL, it’s fun when people read biased articles, without looking at any source material themselves. That article failed to mention a few other questions that same poll asked, like about who was responsible for 9/11… A copy of the results are here. Look at page 8 in particular:

    42.6% of Democrats believe that the US government either “allowed 9/11 to happen” or they “made it happen” (in contrast, only 19.2% of Republicans and 30.5% of Independents are tinfoil hat wearers).

  49. 49.

    DougJ

    September 12, 2007 at 2:11 pm

    The government *did* allow 9/11 to happen in some sense. Bush largely ignored the warnings. In that sense, he allowed it to happen. It doesn’t mean that he did it intentionally.

    Rohan: you’re a moron. You’re not convincing anyone here. Why don’t you go toss off some bon mots about “Nancy Peloshiite” and “BJ Klinton” over at Red State and then go home and just toss off?

  50. 50.

    John Rohan

    September 12, 2007 at 2:13 pm

    PK Says:

    John rohan

    Remember jessica Lynch? or
    Pat Tilman?
    Valerie Plame?
    -WMDs in Iraq?
    -Iraqi nuclear weapons programme?

    Not enough time to address these all, but let me get this straight. You equate these things on an equal level with murdering Sgt Mora and Sgt Gray:

    1) Exaggerating Jessica Lynch’s story (while she was still in captivity, so there was a lot of speculation)

    2) Delaying telling the family of Pat Tillman about the real cause of his death for one month

    3) “Outing” Plame (even though she was not working in a covert assignment and was known to many as a CIA officer). Side note: why do liberals deify Valerie Plame? Wasn’t she working for the same CIA that tortures, kidnaps people, engineers 9/11 and kills people like Sgts Mora & Gray?

    4) Believing in the same WMDs that the UK, the UN, and Clinton also believed in?

    Not saying all the above was right, but people have been prosecuted for the above things. Crazy me, but I would need some actual evidence before I would speculate that the Army/CIA/Bush or whoever killed these two soldiers.

  51. 51.

    DougJ

    September 12, 2007 at 2:25 pm

    Convincing stuff, Rohan. Thanks for all the links to news sources to back up your claims. They made for very interesting reading.

  52. 52.

    John Rohan

    September 12, 2007 at 2:29 pm

    DougJ Says:

    The government did allow 9/11 to happen in some sense. Bush largely ignored the warnings. In that sense, he allowed it to happen. It doesn’t mean that he did it intentionally.

    No. If you read the poll, “allowed it to happen” specifically means:
    “that certain elements in the US government knew the attacks were coming but consciously let them proceed for various political, military and economic motives”

    Rohan: you’re a moron. You’re not convincing anyone here. Why don’t you go toss off some bon mots about “Nancy Peloshiite” and “BJ Klinton” over at Red State and then go home and just toss off?

    Actually, if you go to my website, you’ll see I have no particular problem with Pelosi (yet) and even some admiration for Bill Clinton (such as here).

    You assume much, but understand little. Why don’t you make a remark about my mother while you’re at it?

  53. 53.

    DougJ

    September 12, 2007 at 2:32 pm

    Fair enough, Rohan.

    But I’d like more links to back up your claims.

  54. 54.

    grumpy realist

    September 12, 2007 at 2:41 pm

    Rohan, I think the difference between you and a lot of us that post on this site is the following:

    We believe that there is a level of incompetence, no matter how good the intentions, which arises to the point of culpability. In other words, saying “but I never IMAGINED that…” (fill in X) does not get you off the hook when the results are horrific enough and enough people have been warning you about possible consequences beforehand.

    In other words, either we’re run by a bunch of Keystone Kops who couldn’t pour sand out of a boot if instructions were printed on the heel–in which case, why are they “heading the country”? Or it’s that they are deliberately, maliciously chosing to not plan and to screw up. So which is it?

  55. 55.

    PK

    September 12, 2007 at 2:55 pm

    John Rohan
    So Pat Tilman’s family knew the cause of his death within a month. Funny how they kept saying all those years they wanted to know what happened-must be stupid SOBs.

    Valerie Plame was not working on a covert assignment-was known to many as a CIA agent-Yeah the same old tired right wing bullshit.

    -But clinton and UN believed Iraq had WMDs too!
    They also believed that there was no need to go to war over it. Conveniently forgot that part didn’t you.

    You need evidence? You wouldn’t know evidence even if you got buried in it. And yeah you are crazy. Anyone spouting right wing bs at this late stage is crazy.

  56. 56.

    Jake

    September 12, 2007 at 3:16 pm

    I sort of agree, but there’s a reason people get conspiratorial about the Bush crowd. It’s distrust born of experience not of paranoia.

    Yeah, they’re lying bastards. Understood, but:

    A) For whatever reason the idea that these guys may have died because they were pushed past the limit and just plain exhausted is just as bad as any cunning plan to kill them or posistion them where they were likely to be killed.

    B) If the Bush Crowd were competent enough to surgically remove two troublemakers we would’ve acheived Peace, Liberty and Ponies in 2003. Their first and only real, lasting success was hanky panky with the votes in 2000 and even then the SC had to help. If it weren’t for some cave dwelling psychopath they wouldn’t have had a chance in 2004.

    Trust Bush & Co? Nope.
    Trust them to fuck up? Yep.

  57. 57.

    scarshapedstar

    September 12, 2007 at 3:19 pm

    Jake is absolutely right- you don’t need to get conspiratorial, and for those of you who have, it is a little embarassing, but I can not control how you feel about the government.

    I’m not embarrassed. Pat Tillman was fragged and his family knows it.

    Three shots in the forehead in a one-inch grouping. After he set off a smoke grenade and shouted to cease fire repeatedly. Enough with the Snafu McFubar bullshit, enough with the stress. Even if his squad was that goddamn stupid, the only possible explanation for the government’s ludicrously ham-handed coverup is that he was killed by a UFO, or maybe by a bomber with five/six loose nukes en route to Barksdale.

    The men running this country have no conscience. None whatsoever. If they wish to do evil, there is nothing to stop them. And that is why I don’t feel there is any act below them. For fuck’s sake, John, look at the domestic spying nightmare. Every time – without fail – every fucking time – that they say “trust us”, two years later it comes out that every word they said was a lie. No one is going to punish them, no matter what terrible act they commit.

    It’s over fifty years past Milgram and it seems that you, John, have forgotten his conclusion: you could have staffed a functioning Nazi death camp with the population of any typical American town. You mean to tell me they couldn’t find enough sociopaths to do this shit in a nation of 300 million?

  58. 58.

    scarshapedstar

    September 12, 2007 at 3:23 pm

    Actually, I suppose I should clarify that. You’ve got a few sociopaths at the very top. And then you’ve got a lot more who will take “Der FuhrerThe Patriot Act says you can do that” and “It’s vital to the War on Terror” as an answer to virtually anything they have doubts about.

    If you’ve got proof that Milgram was wrong, I’d like to see it.

  59. 59.

    The Sanity Inspector

    September 12, 2007 at 3:47 pm

    How could the left-handed Vince Foster have shot himself with his right hand? Answer: he was really right-handed, and everyone who said he was left-handed was wrong.

    It’ll be best to refrain from reading more into our present-day mysteries, for the same reason. Speculation, like nature, abhors a vacuum.

  60. 60.

    Z

    September 12, 2007 at 4:11 pm

    It really is sad that several of you are now that paranoid. Honestly, I haven’t gotten there yet. I mean, I would not at all be surprised if these guys were fragged, and the military was covering it up. I would not be surprised if their commanding officer started assigning them the most dangerous duty. I equally would not be shocked if this was just a terrible accident.

    What would surprise me is if they were deliberately targeted by higher ups… if they were truly, deliberately killed by our government. That would shock me.

    This government has always been obsessed with PR. I am honestly of the opinion that Bush makes most of his decisions on how this will look, not on what is best for the country. And, to that end, there have been plenty of abuses. Peace protestors in my town were kept physically seperate by armed police officers from the press when Bush or Cheney (can’t remember which) was here speaking. I am sure they, like other peace groups, have been investigated. Yet, to my knowledge, none of them are dead. Nor are any other Bush opponents that I know of. When it comes to political opponents, they lie and distort and try to silence/drown out opposition, but they don’t resort to murder.

  61. 61.

    whippoorwill

    September 12, 2007 at 4:14 pm

    Three shots in the forehead in a one inch grouping

    That’s a fact I’d like to have explained. Sounds like an M-16 three-round burst at very close range. If not, it would to be an unbelievable chance occurrence from a distance. Where was Dick Cheney that day? Just kidding Scarshapedscar, you make some plausible points.

  62. 62.

    Pb

    September 12, 2007 at 4:26 pm

    to my knowledge, none of them are dead

    For some reason, I don’t find that fact to be very reassuring:

    The unreliability of torture as an interrogation technique was conveyed powerfully by Jane Mayer in an article in the New Yorker last month. She cited the case of a Syrian-born terrorist suspect named Maher Arar, who was seized at New York’s John F. Kennedy Airport in September 2002 as he was traveling back to his home in Canada. He was then sent to Syria under the CIA’s program of “extraordinary rendition” and, by his account, whipped repeatedly on the hands with two-inch-thick electrical cables.

    “Although he initially tried to assert his innocence, he eventually confessed to anything his tormentors wanted him to say,” wrote Mayer. She quoted Arar as explaining his false confession this way: “You just give up. You become like an animal.” The Syrians eventually concluded that Arar was innocent. He was released without charges.

  63. 63.

    Zifnab

    September 12, 2007 at 4:34 pm

    If it was oil that this war was about, we could have simply cut the same immoral deals with Saddam that the Europeans did, and saved everyone a lot of pain.

    Uh, yeah. We, in fact, tried to get the deal the Europeans got. In fact, we tried to get a much better deal. Such a good deal, it pissed Saddam off and had him tossing oil companies out of the country. This pissed said oil companies off so much that they started noticing the fact that Saddam was a brutal dictator who killed his own people, and they had sanctions leveled against him to prevent other non-American companies from doing business with him.

    It’s kinda like how the America oligopoly threw a hissy-fit after Castro socialized Cuba and tried to wreck the country’s economy with an embargo launched purely out of spite.

    More fun facts, one of the reasons Saddam invaded Kuwait was in retaliation for US Oil companies slant drilling into Iraqi oil fields. Also, one of the reasons Saddam ignited the oil fields after he fled.

    So yeah. Iraq was about oil. It has always been about oil. Anyone who says differently doesn’t know two flips about US economic interests from the last 40 years.

  64. 64.

    PK

    September 12, 2007 at 4:41 pm

    Z
    I agree with you for the most part. I really don’t think that anyone high up would order people to be killed. And also the system would not allow it. They simply would not be able to get away with it.
    But here is a question-do you think that if they thought they could get away with it, would they order someone to be killed? I think Cheney would, don’t think Bush would. Cheney has the mentality, the authoritarion, dictatorial personality. Cheney would be extremely dangerous in another set up eg. an African country. He would have run another country completely to the ground.

  65. 65.

    Rick Taylor

    September 12, 2007 at 4:45 pm

    Two of the seven NCO’s who penned the op-ed in the NY Times (and promptly had their loyalty and patriotism questioned) are now dead:

    Did they actually have their loyalty questioned? I remember they were ignored (especially in comparison to the Hanlon and Pollack op ed).

  66. 66.

    Z

    September 12, 2007 at 4:56 pm

    PK-

    If he could get away with it, he’d order it in a heart beat. I doubt the old draft-dodger has the balls to do it himself, but I don’t think he’d have any qualms with sending someone else to.

    PB-

    I know the government has kidnapped foreigners (and Padilla) and tortured them. I know that Iraqi prisoners have been tortured and murdered by their guards. The Bush administration has been a complete disaster: morally, strategically, economically (wait until China cuts off the money spigot), etc. They have authorized horrible, horrible things that I think they should be on trial for. What they haven’t done is murder political opponents who are US citizens.

  67. 67.

    Pb

    September 12, 2007 at 5:07 pm

    Z,

    Yeah, you’re right that Jose Padilla wasn’t murdered–he was just held without trial and driven insane. Hence, why your observation that you don’t know of any political opponents that they’ve murdered doesn’t reassure me in the least.

  68. 68.

    Jake

    September 12, 2007 at 5:28 pm

    Every time – without fail – every fucking time – that they say “trust us”, two years later it comes out that every word they said was a lie.

    And the fact that it comes out that they were lying tells you…?

    Even if his squad was that goddamn stupid, the only possible explanation for the government’s ludicrously ham-handed coverup is that he was killed by a UFO, or maybe by a bomber with five/six loose nukes en route to Barksdale.

    Bad Action + Cover Up By Superiors Does Not (Necessarily) = Bad Action Ordered By Superiors. The cover up stateside stemmed from Bush’s desire to speechify about Football Player/Hero/Martyrs (Create UR Own Reality). Because BAdmin is so shit scared of looking stupid they over-reacted and as a result intelligent people think they did something far worse.

    If this Admin. were that ruthless and intelligent we wouldn’t know about the domestic spying, the FF incident, Abu Gharib, nothing. We likely wouldn’t be able to sit at our desks and have this discussion.

    Thank God for stupid motherfuckers.

  69. 69.

    T. Karney

    September 12, 2007 at 5:56 pm

    Whipporwill: Allow me, as a unit armorer, and going on 16 year member of the Army.

    The only way to get a 1″ group out of an M-16 on burst, is to be at less than one inch from the target.

    Recoil, even as slight as it may be in the 16, is enough to spread the point of impact more than 12″ at 100 yards.

    A SAW will hold a, slightly, smaller group, but not much. The weapon is a lot heavier, but the operational method (open bolt) shifts the muzzle, in addition to muzzle rise.

    As for Mr. Rohan’s claim that the reports of Jessica Lynch’s heroics were being spread about during her capitivity… no.

    I was in V Corps’s HUMINT Bn during the Shooting War, and we weren’t gettting reports like that from anywhere. We got intimations of a firefight from Fox, but nothing from what intel was available was on the ground.

    The big reports of “Valiant Pvt. Lynch” were all put out when she was recovered. They persisted for months.

    So claiming the fog of battle, or whatever such strained analogy you want to use, is either willful blindness to the facts, or arrant dissimulation.

    Tillman’s family was denied, for one month, the official story of his death. It’s not clear that they have yet been given the actual details of the events.

    Plame was covert. That’s why the CIA asked the DOJ to investigate (or are you saying the Tenet is a proxy for the Dems?). I’m not, exactly, a “L”iberal, and I don’t deify her but my outrage (apart from it being a personal thing, because I work in Intel, and have friends whom this sort of callous disregard for protecting their lives pisses me off) is because outing her cancelled an ongoing operation which was focused on closing down/keeping track of the spread of nuclear materials in W. Africa, the Middle East, and Central Europe.

    That you can dismiss people’s concern, disgust and; yes, outrage, at the damage such a thing does to both the US national interest, and the security of the world as a whole, well it tells me more about your values (and makes them look skewed to mere partisan loyalty, rather than the merits of the situation) than it does about those who might be over-reacting (though with my personal bias, on this subject, over-reaction is hard for me to see. I would have to recuse myself from the jury in such a trial, and would have to work mightily to remind myself that I think the death penalty to be wrong; because the state ought not be making that sort of differential, and irrevocable, decision).

    In short, why do you hate America (yes, that’s a cheap rhetorical device, but looking at the arguments you make, and the things you believe, I can’t see a love of the Constitution I swore to defend, and the country it defines as part of your worldview).

    T.Karney
    SSG, USA

  70. 70.

    rachel

    September 12, 2007 at 5:57 pm

    The Bush admin’s #1 problem: they didn’t study the Rules for Evil Overlords

  71. 71.

    T. Karney

    September 12, 2007 at 6:03 pm

    Whipporwill: Oops, I misread the tone of the question.

    If a guy is good, and on semi-automatic, then a 1″ group with an M-16A2 isn’t that hard to get, in short order, at ranges of less than 50 meters. I can hold to about 1.5 inches at 100 meters, but the standard is to hold to 4″.

    There are quirks of the M-16 platform which make it hard to hold a really tight group, on a really regular basis (some of this is ammo inconsistency, some of it is the sights, and the most part is the strange mix of very tight; and very sloppy, tolerances in the lock-up of the bolt/chamber.

  72. 72.

    DougJ

    September 12, 2007 at 9:26 pm

    It’ll be best to refrain from reading more into our present-day mysteries, for the same reason. Speculation, like nature, abhors a vacuum.

    I agree in general, but the Tilman thing stinks to the high heavens.

  73. 73.

    John Rohan

    September 13, 2007 at 3:16 am

    Only have time to respond to one thing, so I’ll respond to this one.

    T.Karney says:
    Allow me, as a unit armorer, and going on 16 year member of the Army.

    The only way to get a 1” group out of an M-16 on burst, is to be at less than one inch from the target.

    Recoil, even as slight as it may be in the 16, is enough to spread the point of impact more than 12” at 100 yards.

    A SAW will hold a, slightly, smaller group, but not much. The weapon is a lot heavier, but the operational method (open bolt) shifts the muzzle, in addition to muzzle rise.

    I’ve got only 14 years in to your 16, but I’ll chime in. What you say is basically true, but you are assuming that only one weapon shot at him. It was certainly several at once. An Afghan soldier was also killed in the incident and three other rangers wounded.

    And speaking of that, if it was a “fragging” incident, it would have been an unusually nasty one. Normally, you target one guy, not four guys.

    But the wierd thing is, there’s no evidence that Pat Tillman was hated by his unit, and I no particular advantage to Bush in having him killed. If anything, the Taliban would have loved to get him instead. I agree that the shots are suspicious and it deserves further investigation, but without evidence, it’s irresponsible to make a specific accusation here.

    As for Mr. Rohan’s claim that the reports of Jessica Lynch’s heroics were being spread about during her capitivity… no.

    I was in V Corps’s HUMINT Bn during the Shooting War, and we weren’t gettting reports like that from anywhere. We got intimations of a firefight from Fox, but nothing from what intel was available was on the ground.

    The big reports of “Valiant Pvt. Lynch” were all put out when she was recovered. They persisted for months.

    So claiming the fog of battle, or whatever such strained analogy you want to use, is either willful blindness to the facts, or arrant dissimulation.

    Yes and no. True, the most wild stories came out after her rescue, but it was still “fog of battle” because Lynch claimed she didn’t remember anything.

    I think the point is being missed here, so I’ll just say it plainly. To quote wiki (and I checked the sources):
    Soon after her rescue Pentagon officials disputed a report appearing in the Washington Post that Lynch fought back, and the first official report of Lynch’s actions during her capture released by the Pentagon weeks later said that she did not appear to have fought back against her captors. The stories of her supposed heroics that day were spread by the news media and by Congressmen from her own state of West Virginia.

    In other words, it wasn’t the Army spreading the bs about Lynch. So claiming that this means they would also stoop to killing Sgt Mora & Gray is even more nonsense.

    Plame was covert. That’s why the CIA asked the DOJ to investigate (or are you saying the Tenet is a proxy for the Dems?).

    Then you have a hard time explaining why Richard Armitage, who actually leaked her name, was not charged with anything. Scooter Libby doesn’t count; he wasn’t charge with the leak but with obstructing the investigation.

    I’m not, exactly, a “L”iberal, and I don’t deify her but my outrage (apart from it being a personal thing, because I work in Intel, and have friends whom this sort of callous disregard for protecting their lives pisses me off) is because outing her cancelled an ongoing operation which was focused on closing down/keeping track of the spread of nuclear materials in W. Africa, the Middle East, and Central Europe.

    I also work in intel, and yes, it was a stupid thing to do. But I’m curious where you get the info that she was actually tracking the spread of nuclear material? I thought the whold point of the scandal was that there wasn’t nuclear material being smuggled out of Africa.

    That you can dismiss people’s concern, disgust and; yes, outrage, at the damage such a thing does to both the US national interest, and the security of the world as a whole, well it tells me more about your values (and makes them look skewed to mere partisan loyalty,

    And you think your tone is “non-partisan”? I don’t see where I “dismissed anyone’s concerns”, but ok let’s say I did. I would add that anyone who automatically sees their own country as the enemy in Iraq or Afghanistan, or, without proof, accuses others of murdering Sgt Mora and Gray in order to silence them, tells me much more about skewed values than anything else.

  74. 74.

    T. Karney

    September 13, 2007 at 3:53 am

    You can say you weren’t being dismissive, but why then toss off things like “why wasn’t Armitage prosecuted,” and Plame wasn’t covert, and “it wasn’t the Army” when looking at who said what, (without even looking at the why) shows that Time, the NYT, et al. got their version of events from the army, Armitage wasn’t charged because Libby’s perjury made it impossible and Plame was working on the entire region; which is immaterial to the forged Niger docs, and what didn’t happen in Iraq. Her cover (and all the folks who worked for/with her) are blown, as is the shell corporation the CIA built up over years.

    It’s sad (and depressing) that pointing out things like this is seen, not as an interest in truth, but grinding a partisan ax (and imputing to me, in a form of “libel by juxtaposition [feel free to look it up; though I doubt there are any wiki which have it…] a belief that Sgts Mora, and Gray were killed is an interesting example of something…, since I never said any such thing, [though you will can claim you didn’t say it about me… check the reference])

    Which, as I said before, tells me more about you, than it does about events.

  75. 75.

    scarshapedstar

    September 13, 2007 at 6:56 am

    But the wierd thing is, there’s no evidence that Pat Tillman was hated by his unit, and I no particular advantage to Bush in having him killed.

    “You know, this war is so fucking illegal.”

    -Pat Tillman, shortly before he was fragged.

  76. 76.

    Tim F.

    September 13, 2007 at 7:00 am

    But I’m curious where you get the info that she was actually tracking the spread of nuclear material? I thought the whold point of the scandal was that there wasn’t nuclear material being smuggled out of Africa.

    \

    It is willfully disingenuous comments like this that make people regard you as less than an honest commenter, Rohan. See also your earlier bit about BDS.

    If you have any experience in intelligence, as you claim, then you don’t need me or anybody else to explain that Iraq ranked in the middle of a respectable list of WMD-ambitious actors in the region. You also don’t need me to tell you that everybody who has interacted with a Brewster Jennings employee, contractor or spouse in a repressive regime such as Iran has almost certainly faced imprisonment, torture or execution as a result of Plame’s exposure. I get the impression that you tossed off that stupid line because, unlike you, you thought that the rest of us might be chumps who don’t get the real meaning of burning a front company used by CIA NOCs.

  77. 77.

    John Rohan

    September 13, 2007 at 7:51 am

    T. Karney Says:

    Armitage wasn’t charged because Libby’s perjury made it impossible

    Admittedly, there might be some legalisms that I’m not familiar with, but I don’t see why the Libby prosecution would make a case against Armitage impossible, since Armitage himself has openly admitted to leaking the name to Rove (and Rove concurred).

    a belief that Sgts Mora, and Gray were killed is an interesting example of something…, since I never said any such thing, [though you will can claim you didn’t say it about me… check the reference])

    I brought that up to try to bring the debate back to the topic – I can argue about this other stuff all day long but the thread is about the deaths of Sgts Mora & Gray, and my whole objection here was people claiming they were deliberately killed, and using Plame, Lynch, Tillman, etc, as “evidence” of this.

  78. 78.

    John Rohan

    September 13, 2007 at 7:54 am

    scarshapedstar Says:
    “You know, this war is so fucking illegal.”

    -Pat Tillman, shortly before he was fragged.

    You do realize that he was killed in Afghanistan, not Iraq, right?

    If he felt that way, it would have been strange for him to enlist after 9/11, especially giving up millions of dollars and all that. Just something to think about.

  79. 79.

    Tim F.

    September 13, 2007 at 8:00 am

    Admittedly, there might be some legalisms that I’m not familiar with, but I don’t see why the Libby prosecution would make a case against Armitage impossible, since Armitage himself has openly admitted to leaking the name to Rove (and Rove concurred).

    The IIPA puts a heavy weight on the intentions of the leaker. Armitage clearly passed on the name more or less accidentally, making him an ineligible target. Rove and Cheney office had motives that Armitage did not, as shown by their gleeful exploitation of the leak, making them potential targets under IIPA or related statutes. Libby’s obstruction charge stuck, indeed was considered a slam dunk by the jury, because he was almost certainly blocking a legitimate prosecution.

  80. 80.

    Pb

    September 13, 2007 at 8:27 am

    Ahem:

    Initial news reports, including those in The Washington Post, which cited unnamed U.S. officials with access to intelligence reports, described Lynch emptying her M-16 into Iraqi soldiers. The intelligence reports from intercepts and Iraqi informants said that Lynch fought fiercely, was stabbed and shot multiple times, and that she killed several of her assailants.

    Yes America, newspapers have sources too–in this case, “unnamed U.S. officials with access to intelligence reports”, and “intelligence reports from intercepts and Iraqi informants”. U.S. officials, pushing propaganda? Iraqi informants, lying? Quelle surprise.

  81. 81.

    Andrew

    September 13, 2007 at 9:00 am

    You do realize that he was killed in Afghanistan, not Iraq, right?

    You realize he was talking about Iraq, not Afghanistan, right? And he had previously been deployed to Iraq?

    Jesus, you’re a particularly sad sort of apologist if you’re actually trying to defend the Tillman debacle.

  82. 82.

    John Rohan

    September 14, 2007 at 2:47 am

    Andrew Says:

    You do realize that he was killed in Afghanistan, not Iraq, right?

    You realize he was talking about Iraq, not Afghanistan, right? And he had previously been deployed to Iraq?

    Look at scarshapstar’s comment again: “-Pat Tillman, shortly before he was fragged“, which was in Afghanistan.

    But Iraq, Afghanistan, whatever, I’m sure it’s all the same to you.

    Jesus, you’re a particularly sad sort of apologist if you’re actually trying to defend the Tillman debacle.

    At least I read the stuff I’m commenting on…

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