Facts (and their known liberal bias) got in the way again:
“We are going to ask The New York Times to allow us tomorrow to print an ad that will obviously take the opposite view,” Mr. Giuliani said. He said The Times gave a “discounted” rate to MoveOn.org, which had expressed the “very excessive left-wing side of this dispute.”
The advertisement has become a major talking point for Republicans. Several have demanded that the Democratic presidential candidates condemn the advertisement, which they have not done.
Catherine J. Mathis, a spokeswoman for The New York Times Company, said the advertising department does not base its rates on political content. She also said the department does not disclose the rates it charges for individual advertisements. But she did say that “similar types of ads are priced in the same way.” She said the department charges advocacy groups $64,575 for full-page, black-and-white advertisements that run on a “standby” basis, meaning an advertiser can request a specific day and placement but is not guaranteed them.
Mr. Giuliani’s advertisement attacks MoveOn.org and Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York, a leading Democratic presidential candidate, while praising General Petraeus.
Freedom’s Watch, a conservative group, ran a full-page, color advertisement in The Times on Sept. 11. In a letter Thursday to its publisher, Arthur Sulzberger Jr., the president of Freedom’s Watch, Bradley A. Blakeman, said: “The New York Times representative explained to us that we could run a standby rate ad for $65,000, but we could not pick the date or placement of the ad.” Mr. Blakeman said MoveOn.org must have been able to pick the date of its advertisement, or had been given “preferential treatment” on the timing, because news organizations were discussing the advertisement before it ran.
Ms. Mathis said the content of an advertisement is not reviewed before a price is quoted.
As for advance word of when a standby ad is running, she said: “Someone might say, ‘I’d like the standby rate, I’d like it to run tomorrow,’ and we say, ‘We can’t guarantee that,’ but then if we find out it is running, we let them know. If we have room, we try to accommodate them.”
The question I have for our intrepid truth detectors- why is the NY Times making contributions to Rudy Guiliani’s campaign by running heavily discounted ads? And who will be the brave soul to call for an FEC investigation?
*** Update ***
Actually, I don’t know how I missed this. I know what the next line will be- ‘Of course they gave Giuliani the same rate! They had to after the blogospehre caught them giving MoveOn a discount!’
Who will be the first drooling idiot to say that? My money is on Uncle Jimbo, or a commenter at Ace’s.
TenguPhule
The NY Times must be very happy now that so many people want to buy ads on it.
Please, Republicans. Go right on and give your dollars to the ‘liberal media’.
Dave
Why don’t people like Jimbo get tired of looking like assholes?
Mr Furious
Doesn’t that moron know that MoveOn posts it’s ads ahead of time on their own site, does p.r. releases and mass email campaigns, and often asks its members to not only vote on the ads, but contribute to the cost?
In addition, all the wingnuts keep constant tabs on them, so its no surprise, nor evidence of a conspiracy, that everyone knew about it.
John Cole
No. They “think” we are the assholes, and by “we,” I am simply a good loyal Republican who has been co-opted and led astray by my commenters and the leftist spin of the media.
FWIW, they also “think” we are winning in Iraq.
Scare quotes so the word think completely does not become devoid of meaning.
Mike S
Last night on Hannitty and the other guy Rudy showed once again that he has no place in the oval office, not to mention that he is a blithering idiot. First he complained about the Democrats questioning Patreus because he is a General. He obviously thinks, like Bush and his GOP enablers, that the job of congress is to agree with whatever the GOP position is, regardless.
Then he said that Hillary obviously was in cahoots with Move-On and the ad because she questioned Patreus on the same day the ad came out. Sean being Sean, and the other guy being the other guy, didn’t bother to point out that she questioned him that day because he was before her committee that day.
Xenos
How did we do that, in any case? Would love to bottle the magic potion that gives commenters power over blog proprietors…
canuckistani
As long as you are in our power, John, how about a round of beer?
Pug
I made the mistake of watching a few minutes of Fox News myself last night. I tell you, the far right is obssessed with this MoveOn ad. That’s all they talked about on both Hannity and Nobody and Brit Hume.
Then, Giuliani brought it up on Larry King’s CNN show and McCain brought it up on the Daily Show. Guys like slobbering loony Bill Sammon of the Washington Times think they are just absolutely making hay with this one. Unfortunately for them, nobody else really seems to care much.
Giuliani’s ad is in the The Times today. Larry King’s best question to Giuliani last night was something like this: “You’ve mentioned General Patreaus five or six times tonight. The one name you haven’t mentioned is President Bush. Why is that?”.
Tsulagi
From your Update…
Maybe the next drooling idiot after that might say “Of course the NYT now lies, they’re trying to avoid obvious FEC violations!” Maybe not, I don’t have a natural grasp of wingnuttian thinking.
jaime
The trial balloon has been floated on Redstate.
Never retreat. Never surrender. Morons.
Teak111
Survey here at the office of 8 “liberal” colleagues, only a few have heard of MoveOn, and one heard of the MoveOn ad. None of the 8 read political blogs. Conclusion, Moveon ad is political blog navel gazing.
DougJ
John, you’re really on fire these days.
Here’s the bad news: your idignation will wear off eventually, as mine did. When I first realized how nuts the Republicans were in 1998, I had about year of feeling the way you do, then I got jaded.
Enjoy it while you can.
SP
Chalk this round up as a partial win for the wingnuttia spin machine. We’ve been talking about a fucking advertisement for a week now. Instead of talking about Iraq ,once again the dialog gets turned to some meaningless distraction that really has nothing to do with the original topic.
Mark S.
So let me get this straight. MoveOn’s ad appeared Sept. 10. Freedom’s Watch’s ad appeared the next day (and on 9/11, which is undoubtedly the day they wanted). They both payed the same rate. What in God’s name are they complaining about?
Mike S
The blogasphere is not representative of the country. Other than FOX the story has gotten no attention. And FOX is collapsing in on itself so their viwers just don’t matter.
Mary
No, Freedom Watch paid more than $120K to get that date. Now if MoveOn had gotten September 11 placement for $65K, then there may have been something odd going on. Getting a standby ad in on September 10 is damn plausible to me. Nothing to see here, folks …
Pb
Mark S.,
My understanding is that they didn’t pay the same rate–according to Freedom’s Watch. Then again, they had different arrangements. The Freedom’s Watch ad was in color; I don’t know if they got it on a standby basis, but I doubt it; and probably a dozen other things, all far too subtle for the wingnutosphere.
The personification of their own hatreds, fears and insecurities (as usual), aka nothing.
OxyCon
I think we need to file an FEC complaint against the New York Times for giving Giuliani a discount if he got the rate for advocacy ads, because he ran a political attack ad.
cleek
odds are that Rudy’s not completely stupid – he just thinks [knows] the GOP primary voters are idiots and is feeding them whatever will get them riled-up.
Mike S
Great post on Rudy from James Fallows. I found it via Drum.
Gus
I think SPs right. I heard a bit of local Minneapolis talk radio (not Limbaughesque, more a centrist thing), and there was basically an entire program about the ad. No talk about Petraeus’ testimony. It’s a pretty good misdirection, and for that reason I think the ad backfired.
Jake
The fact NYT ran the MO.O ad. Does anyone here really think that even if MO.O paid more for their ad than FM the wingnuts would go back to snorking Cheeto crumbs out of their keyboards?
Their first complaint was that the ad criticised Pet Raeus. The cunning investigative reporting that revealed the non-scandal came second.
John Cole
Beats me- but it is what they honestly think. Here is yet another tedious thread at protein Wisdom where my craziness and the fact that you all co-opted me when Tim started posting is undisputed. You can guarantee the same comments whenever I am mentioned at Protein Wisdom, Ace, or anywhere in the circle jerk crowd. the only thing missing is Ricky West stating, as he does on every thread ‘Why read John Cole when you can read Andrew Sullivan two hours earlier.’
Normally I ignore them, this time I responded.
capelza
Someone at PW actually said that with a straight face? Isn’t that the land of cock-slappers?
cleek
introspection’s for dhimmilosercrats.
pharniel
speaking of crazy..i read some ace and the comments at el capitian…apperntly The People don’t want to leave Iraq. and that moveon.org has tons of meetings with high level democrats and that’s how they’re turning the democrats into traitors.
because we all know republican think tanks and high rollers NEVER dictate to The Party what to do…
I think i’ve finnalyf oudn out why i want to just light them all on fire: it’s the goose/gander thing where if they do soemthing it’s cool,b ut god forbid you should do the same thing, because that’s cheating.
Punchy
I’m shocked that Freedom Watch ran their ad in color. I thought Republicans hated anything they call “colored”…
grumpy realist
Punchy:
POTD.
yet another jeff
Hello? Pot? This is Kettle…
Nikki
If John had banned us (like a lot of wingnut blogs) or deleted our comments (ditto) or didn’t allow comments (ditto) and forced us to stay on his message, we wouldn’t have been able to seize his mind and lead him astray.
Dave
I don’t know if they are first, but the three commenters below you over at PW are touting this.
chopper
ah, on to the second-string defense. ok, so they paid the same rates others would have paid for the ad. but they got preferential treatment in having it run when they wanted it!
sadly predictable.
David
Wait, people in the media knew what other people in the media were going to publish…before they published it?! TREASON!
timb
Yep, and those are three idiots, starting with cock-slapper himself and ranging to the genial BJTxs. So much rhetorical firepower, so little reality.
My favorite commenter is the genius “who’s in Iraq.” Now, I’ve known a couple of people who have been “in Iraq” and, since they were in the field, they didn’t have all day to sit and check a blog. So, either he’s a contractor, living the good life and playing Halo all day or he’s in some general’s palace. But he knows(!) what’s going on and he will continue to fight the real war against liberals.
When did Goldstein become obsessed with you, John? Everyday, Protein Wisdom mentions you.
Pb
Of course, when you’re bankrolled by Bush’s rich GOP buddies, you can easily afford to run color ads on 9/11, and not on standby, either…
jenniebee
Yeah, Dave – I especially like the one who says that pointing out that Giuliani got the same rate is irrelevant because Giuliani got that rate ten days before MoveOn’s ad ran, which apparently is meant to prove that MoveOn got a special deal. Classic.
jenniebee
From PW (emphasis theirs):
My God – is that, is that a direct request to have it enshrined as indisputable fact that objective reality has a definite liberal bias?
Dreggas
Sometimes, being an asshole is all you have…
DragonScholar
jenniebee,
Reality does have a liberal bias. This is apparently why a lot of wingnuts want to bomb and kill as much of it as possible.
At some point, seriously, someone needs to do a kind of Wingnut Wrongness Wiki to catalogue things like this. I wish I had the time, frankly.
Punchy
OT–
How in fuck did I miss this from Crocker’s speech (side note: his name is strangely apropos):
Never underestimate the power of their minds to come up with ways to deny the reality….
John Cole
Yglesias caught the post-kinetic thing the other day.
As to PW, I am not going back. Who really cares what excuse they will come up with for how they were REALLY, REALLY right about the NY Times, even though everything points to them being completely wrong.
Cols714
Yeesh that discussion at PW is terrible. I wish I could go back in time and find out when the right decided that the media was liberally biased and that the NY Times was filled with a bunch of traitors. That has to be one of the worst ideas ever. You see where it got us.
timb
Was the gentleness with which they attempted to refute you. You know, to welcome back the prodigal son with open arms?
Or the just plain mean-ass vacuity they greet anyone who doesn’t agree? A few weeks ago the warmongers rhetorically beat to death a poor Ron Paul supporter who happened to come by and want to discuss things with them. I mean, they tore this guy a new ass for saying he like Ron Paul (which is, sort of weird, but not seemingly a bludgeoning offense).
They’re a bunch of old, angry white men over there and so freakin’ stubborn they think Bush’s sin is being too flexible!
I’m glad I stopped posting over there. It was dangerous.
Teak111
Lets look at this the other way. So what if the NYT discounted the ad because they wanted to push the “Betrayus” message? This is stardard operating procedure on the right in every medium they work in, radio, TV, print, your local church. How can rightwing bloggers point fingers when the right invented this kinda of crap. You could go blind trying to keep up with all news advocasy on the right. More distractions from the hard truths about Irag. Shifty bastards.
timb
Entertainingly, and way too deep for the PW crowd to figure, we were led there by Judith Miller and Michael Gordon, writing in the NY Times and doing the Vice President’s business.
demimondian
It’s really sad. The whole Protein Wisdom discussion doesn’t make me angry anymore. It should — it really should — but it brings out some kind of pitying weariness.
OK, folks. I hate what you believe, because I love the country you claim to be serving. I’ll continue fighting your ideas…but you guys are so utterly pathetic that I just can’t do much more than despise you. I can’t even get angry with you, you’re just not worth it.
Zifnab
Seriously, this is way better than the Beauchamp, if only because the wingnutters have even less to stand on.
Pb
yeah, I agree, they are so inane, inflexible, and fantasy-based that it’s really not worth wasting the time to correct them, which is why I don’t do it more often. They truly are the neo-know-nothings.
DougJ
I know I’ve said this before, but I don’t think any of us should pay attention to PW at all. Jeff Goldstein is mentally ill. Mocking him is like arguing with some poor schizophrenic homeless person on the street about whether not they really see the devil.
I don’t say this to be unkind about Jeff.
DougJ
I feel the same way about Ann Althouse.
Punchy
With all the alleged cock-slapping going on over there, shouldn’t Jeff Goldy rename his blog Protein Milkshake?
r4d20
Seriously, this is way better than the Beauchamp, if only because the wingnutters have even less to stand on.
I dont know.
I can see rubes falling for this. Most regular people rarely, if ever, negotiate prices – they pay what the sticker says. For many people the “they discounted the ad for idealogical reasons” narrative is going to have more truthiness than the truth itself.
Teak111
Well is Leftards and Rightards have different brains and John used to be a rightard, but is now a leftard (independant cough cough) then something must have happened to John’s brain. John, did you recently hit you head hard, or maybe its the alcohol?
Never read PW comments before, that they are a rightious bunch. I hope we are not so rightious but I bet we sound that way to them.
The Other Steve
Back in the mid 1990s there used to be this guy who posted on our college usenet forum. He was a rabid hate-Clinton Republican. Really rabid, and would write long tirades like Goldstein.
One morning I came to work, and in the local paper it was noted the guy had been found dead in his garage of CO poisoning.
Pretty sad. I had a hard time trying to decide if my arguing with him on usenet was unfair, give his mental illness. I’m still not sure though, because if you don’t argue with these nuts they take over the government and try to make it as nuts as they are.
The Other Steve
It’s true. I personally co-opted John Cole to the dark side.
In a Minneapolis airport restroom of all places.
DougJ
The Other Steve: that’s a little my concern with Jeff G. If we has a real break-down, I think we’ll feel guilty for possibly exacerbating his problems. So I think it’s best to leave him be.
DougJ
Meant to say “if he has a real break down”.
Why doesn’t Safari have built in spell checking like Firefox, btw? I know it wouldn’t have caught that one, but does anyone know the answer?
Dreggas
As Little Vicky Craig would say:
Tappa, Tappa, Tappa
demimondian
Because The Sons of Jobs don’t need no steenkin spell-checkers. They tell words how they’re spelled, adn the words know to listen!
Dave
It does, you just have to work for it (actually all Cocoa apps should have it built-in, it’s free with the framework):
Edit->Spelling->Check Spelling As You Type.
or cmd-: to bring up the check spelling Dialog (right clicking will also bring up the spelling menu).
Dave
Don’t fear teh Steve Demi. Come to the Mac side, the water is warm.
laneman
auto spell-check is ok. Or right click on the word and ta-da, you get an options or offer to look up the def.
kid is hogging my iMac atm and I can’t play warcrack and I’m cranky
demimondian
I already did, so that I could find out what the fuss was all about.
demi “I get rid of my macbook on 1/2/09, too” mondian
jake
Meaning bits of buildings and bodies have stopped flying around.
If there were such a thing as crimes against language, Crockpot’s ass would be hanging from a lamp post.
t. jasper parnel
It seems that the Republicans are losing the military vote; should one of the variously marritally impared win the nominationt they will lose the religions vote. Who then will they have? The Bush Fellatiate Vote?
Tsulagi
LOL, that is a classic. A little in Crocker’s defense, that term has Army written all over it. Crocker probably borrowed it because he thought it made him sound knowledgeable. You know, big picture stuff.
Maybe in March we can be treated to another Petraeus chart: Kinetic environments. The numbers can be summed as pre-kinetic + post-kinetic + kinetic hoaxes.
t. jasper parnel
OT but Bremmer lied about the Army, or so it seems.
chopper
then we get to hear about potential. and relativity. quantum fluctuations. inflation.
wonderful.
JWW
No John,
You are an ” ” you haven’t the guts or as man speak, the balls” to let anyone oppose you. You proved that last night. As for the NYT ads, it is, what it is. Yeah, it may suck for you, it may be good for you. Does your mind ever look at”right and wrong”? No, you feed on a bought and sold thought process. You and all of your 20 – 30 sheep followers, confirm the same. Have you ever, kept an audiance of more than 50 people. If not, have you ever wondered why?
Rick Taylor
O.O
John, I had no idea I was one of your flock of sheep. Am I supposed to get orders what to think or somthing via e-mail? Or am I just supposed to read the blog? Don’t worry, I promise not to oppose you or anything.
John Cole
JWW-
I ban you not because I don’t like you say, but because I normally can not understand WTF you are saying. Lots of people disagree with me, the difference is their insults make sense.
Apparently you are slow on the uptake, so now I have another IP to ban. Get some help, sober up, an by all means come back.
Rick Taylor
I probably shouldn’t ask this, but how on earth do they come to that conclusion? How is it we’ve been winning consistently for the last four years, and Iraq is more of a hell than ever? Do they just not know about the millions of refugees, the fleeing educated class, the dead bodies with that turning up with drill holes in the capital, the shortage of doctors, the de facto ethnic cleansing of the capital? Or do they think that’s not important? How bad would it have to get before they thought we weren’t winning? I can’t get my head around this. I guess I should go and find out for myself.
Rick Taylor
God damn, I guess you’re right. I’m speechless.
link
The Other Steve
Because to say otherwise is to admit to losing, and they don’t want to lose.
This Iraq thing was so precious to them. The in and out in six weeks plan to victory was going to cement a Permanent Republican Majority for all time.
Punchy
You suck John, and your Hola Fruta reminds me of ten cars lined up suckingly in a row of crack houses where sucky WV teachers suck on suckers and belt buckles are good because your pants dont fall down unless she’s a whore and demands to play the skin flute, unlike pooping in the sink.
rachel
Dear God, Punchy’s caught the Dada-itis from JWW.
Daisy
I am NOT a sheep.
chopper
i love how the right, whose general opinion of muslims is not very high (racially profile them! all terrorists are muslims! islam is evil and wants to destroy us all!) think that all the muslims in iraq are different and are our buddies, just waiting to discover the joys of christianity or something.
so it all boils down to “let’s drop half a trillion plus and tens of thousands of US soldiers on a bunch of muslims who, under any other scenario, we’d hate.”
yeah, that makes sense.
jake
The soldiers have to fight for them over there so the Right doesn’t have to look at them over here.
Unless … You’re not … Are you suggesting they’re using brown people as political props and they really don’t give a fuck if every Iraqi is blown to pieces?
Shocked. I am SHOCKED by such cynicism.
grandpa john
Well you know what the say
” Consistancy is the hobgoblin of small minds”
and God knows none of these wingnuts would want to be considered as having small minds. being insane and delusional they don’t mind but small minded, never
laneman
Baaaah
Phoenix Woman
AdAge has an article dedicated to this very topic:
http://adage.com/mediaworks/article?article_id=120480
Giuliani Also Gets Liberal Discount From Times
NEW YORK (AdAge.com) — Rudy Giuliani got a lot of attention yesterday when he attacked The New York Times for giving MoveOn.org what he called sweetheart pricing on the group’s “General Petraeus or General Betray Us?” ad… But at the end of the week, when his campaign took out an ad in the Times advocating the opposite point of view, Giuliani paid the going rate for a full-page standby ad in the Times: $65,000.