One of the more maddening things about this whole Frost debate is the obvious irrational belief that a 260k house in the heart of Butcher Hill in Baltimore is somehow a big deal. Granted, here in WV, depending on the area you live, a 260k house is something that could be pretty nice, but in most urban areas, 260k is nothing. From the comments:
There are a lot of problems with the SCHIP bill. The bill ncludes provisions that manipulate this program to expand coverage to illegal immigrants and the upper class (that are already covered by private insurance). I’m not against giving the very poor some kind of assistance with health insurance. I don’t think Michelle is either. But people in 260G homes don’t need it. And it certainly better not go to illegal aliens.
Hell, go here and check it out for yourself what the real estate market will give you in WV for $260,000. Even here in WV, where real estate values are low, these are not mansions- they are middle class homes. They are the kind of home lived in by voters that Richard Nixon would have targeted with his famous “Checkers” speech:
Well in addition to the mortgage, the 20,000 dollar mortgage on the house in Washington, the 10,000 dollar one on the house in Whittier, I owe 4500 dollars to the Riggs Bank in Washington, D.C., with interest 4 and 1/2 percent. I owe 3500 dollars to my parents, and the interest on that loan, which I pay regularly, because it’s the part of the savings they made through the years they were working so hard — I pay regularly 4 percent interest. And then I have a 500 dollar loan, which I have on my life insurance.
Well, that’s about it. That’s what we have. And that’s what we owe. It isn’t very much. But Pat and I have the satisfaction that every dime that we’ve got is honestly ours. I should say this, that Pat doesn’t have a mink coat. But she does have a respectable Republican cloth coat, and I always tell her she’d look good in anything.
The disconnect is clear- some of these people see 260k, and they think this family is flush with assets, even when the house is mortgaged. It just isn’t the case, and you have to wonder whether the folks commenting flippantly about this have any real experience with housing markets.
I remember in the not so distant past when Republicans mocked Al Gore because of his definition of rich:
The vice president’s proposals rely on targeted credits whose value diminishes dramatically as family income rises. This means the Gore tax reductions are intrinsically biased against states and regions with high living costs and high average incomes, whose residents already bear the brunt of the federal income-tax burden.
Millions of families in high-income states qualify as middle class by the standards of their own communities. But Gore’s ranks them as too “wealthy” to need–or deserve–a tax cut.
New York is a prime example.
The Empire State is a perennial net loser in the income-redistribution game and bears a disproportionately large share of the total federal income-tax burden. Factoring in steep tabs for state and local government, residents of New York are the most heavily taxed people in the country. If anyone needs relief, New Yorkers do.
They’d get it from George W. Bush.
My, how things change. A few years ago, when it came to tax cuts, the right was able to (correctly, in my opinion) discern that 80k combined income was decidedly middle-class. Now, we learn from the lunatics on the right, 45k annual income and a modest and mortgaged 260k house not only qualifies someone as rich, but means that they are worthy of our scorn and contempt, and don’t deserve any help in their time of need.
It is sad, really.
Xanthippas
Or life. Acquiring the kind of knowledge you acquire when, you know, you have to actually work and buy things like homes, and cars for yourself.
cleek
you give them too much credit.
this isn’t about facts, it’s about distracting from the real SCHIP debate (which they’ve lost completely). they don’t need real arguments: they need volume; they need fury; they need the usual mouthpieces to rally the base, yet again, against the Evil Liberal.
Xanthippas
Which by the way only affirms my belief that there’s a large subset of conservatives who only think people have to “pull themselves up by their own bootstraps” because they’ve never had to do it themselves and so have no idea what that actually means. Whereas I can count several conservatives I know whose positions have moderated when they actually got to know people whose conditions they disapproved of (whether it’s being poor, or homosexual, or a liberal, etc.), I can count many many more who can afford to be rigid and inflexible precisely because they have no desire to get to know people like that.
Bo
Wow, just 2 days ago, it was worth half a million dollars. I guess the housing bubble has well and truly burst.
Jake
Fixed.
Even the intial “estimate” of 400K in this area was on the low side. But to focus on the price of the house (or the possible cost of the kids’ tuition) is just more willful stupidity because it ignores the point: Yes! Even people who own homes and hold jobs can find themselves unable to provide health insurance for their kids.
Either that or it is a more cunning ploy: Look, rich people sending their kids to snooty private schools! We hate rich people (unless they’re presidents or preachers)! Attack!
Or. They’re a pack of feral dogs bent on biting someone. Twelve year old kid? Soldier? Parkinson patient? Red meat is red meat.
Take your pick.
Vic
This is part of the problem. The wingnuts are so blind with fury that they can’t seem to understand that the real estate market and the cost of living varies greatly from state to state, even within states. I live in New York City. What will $260K buy you in Manhattan? A studio, maybe a one bedroom apartment in the upper reaches of Washington Heights. When I lived in Buffalo, $260K would buy you a great house in the trendy part of town. (Well, trendy for Buffalo.)
And what should they do with the house anyway? Sell it? Then what? Live in an RV? It’s not like they’re going to get a substantially cheaper house in the same area.
And since when is a $45K salary considered rich? Especially when you have two very sick kids. (Remember when Rush complained about how hard it was for folks making $100k/yr to make ends meet, thanks to those dastardly Clinton tax hikes?)
zzyzx
Wow! I’m rich! I have a mortgage!!
Bubblegum Tate
Remember when Tony Snow’s $160,000/year salary was nowhere near enough to deal with the costs of an ongoing medical problem? Yeah.
RSA
There’s another large subset of conservatives who think, “I went through a bad period and I survived. Everyone should suffer the way I did.” They ignore the possibility that if the system were changed, others might not have to go through what they did; somehow it would cheapen their experience. You see the same perspective in the jumping-to-the-front-of-the-line argument in the immigration debate and in the soldiers’-deaths-will-have-been-in-vain argument in the Iraq war debate. Get over it!
Zifnab
What really gets me is that its not like this family didn’t have insurance, they just had it subsidized by the government. Wingnuts were playing this up like the Frosts deliberately choose to get onto the CHIP program, like this was part of the some calculus when they decided to make $45k / year, rather than become stock brokers and make millions with lavish benefits.
What’s more, there’s this ridiculous “choices have consequences” attitude that seems to imply if the family didn’t get CHIP, they would have given up on insurance entirely. The Democrat’s radio address emphasized how CHIP helped the family in its time of need, and stressed how without CHIP, the burden to provide insurance for the family would have been higher. Wingnuts just heard, “Without CHIP, we’d all collapse in a pile and die! We’re helpless!” The game was to prove the Frosts as a family of rich, inept hippies. They failed miserably. But its sad that they even tried to play that game at all.
Fwiffo
Hell, where I’m at (Southwest Florida) 260k would buy a shitty ass-house in a scary neighborhood. Maybe not quite the ghetto, but certainly not a place I’d like to live in. And it’s not even an urban area. And that’s after housing prices have dropped like 40% here.
Peter Johnson
That’s a competely bogus comparison. Snow is nearing retirement age, especially with his cancer. I don’t think anyone in the Frost family is. And Graeme certainly is not.
And I think it’s disgusting that you’d use this as an excuse to take a shot at Tony Snow. Disgusting.
gypsy howell
What I don’t understand is what exactly do these shreiking harpies think the Frosts should do with their fabulous real estate wealth? Even if they sold the house, stripped all the equity out of it and spent ever last penny and then some on their medical bills, where were they supposed to move to, in a city where apparently even such a modest row home would now cost them a half a million bucks? A cardboard box? The homeless shelter? Section 8 housing? I can only imagine the kind of shreiking and garment-rending we’d be hearing if the Frosts were living in subsidized housing while they made FORTY FIVE THOUSAND (Dr Evil gesture inserted here) dollars a year .
This is like the Schiavo case. The republicans don’t seem to have any clue that millions of average Americans are in exactly the same financial situation as the Frosts, living in the same kind of modest middle class housing, and so can easily empathize with their situation if god forbid a medical emergency strikes.
Idiots.
Peter Johnson
Gypsy, they could sell their house, move to a more modest one and use the proceeds to buy healthcare, the same way most Americans do.
There’s a big big difference between a 260G house and a cardboard box. There’s a lot in between, espeicially in Baltimore of all places. If they lived in NYC, I might sympathize more. Though even then, they could always move to Queens.
Lee
They obviously do not. As someone else has pointed out, it appears they do not have much real experience with life either.
A side note: Peter Johnson that was seriously weak trolling. This site expects much better.
RSA
In more ways than one: Focus on a single case, rather than a general situation. Publicize a lot of information that later turns out to be wrong. Demonize some of those involved. Look like idiots.
Lee
PJ:
As others have pointed out repeatedly, they already have health insurance. It is just subsidized. Which is the point of the debate.
The amount of the home is not the issue, it is the amount of the mortgage (this is point where the difference is apparent of people with experience with real life and those without). So they sell their home and move into a less desirable place to eliminate a 20k mortgage, really? Is this what passes as good financial planning for the current GOP?
grandpa john
evidently none of these assholes can tear themselves away from FAUX news long enough to check out some of the home and garden channel shows about people buying homes,
In some parts of the country , 1200 sq ft homes built 50-70 years ago ,after renovation, are bringing 350-400 thousand or better. It depends on the demand and the part of the country located in.
Ninerdave
No it’s actually stomach turning disgusting how the rightwing has behaved in the last couple days. Even more so when you consider they are supposed to be the party of high morals.]
Agree with Lee. Peter, that troll sucked.
Teak111
In SoCal, 260 gets you almost nothing, literally, cept a trailer and those are all taken. Besides, you can’t eat equity or assets (as much as the loan industry would like you think otherwise), all the Frost family assets might add up to 400K, so what, its income that pays for the monthly bills like HC. An earlier commentor mentioned rage and that is spot on. Right wingers are raging because the 100 year reign of the convervative movement is toast and thier only outlet of to go hunting for table scraps in a blind fury, hoping for another Dan Rather fix. Sad, really.
gypsy howell
Did you look at the pictures in the post below, Peter? We’re not talking about a McMansion here. We’re not even talking about a single family home. It’s a little rowhouse. And judging from the outside, a fairly modest one at that. So while yes, there is clearly some distance between that and a cardboard box, for a family of 6 in Baltimore, it’s probably a pretty short walk.
But please, by all means, keep flacking that point, will you? You’re only reinforcing my point #2.
Steve
Nice to see people still spoof around here.
The Other Steve
There’s no excusing this. They’re out of line.
No more needs to be said.
MikeEss
The whole exercise of sending the Flying Monkeys after the Frosts is analogous to the use of torture against “unlawful enemy combatants”.
The action itself has no inherent value in support the goals of those who participate in it. However, the real object is to set a tone of fear so that others will be intimidated from criticizing anything the Cheney/Bush Administration wants. In that respect, the Flying Monkeys usually come out on top.
This is a great example of why America is no longer the country I was born and raised in…
Doubting Thomas
Peter Johnson? Please try a little harder. I suppose your middle name is Randy?
tBone
So let’s make sure we’ve got this straight – for most Americans, the best way to afford health insurance is to sell your house and move into a shithole? Oh, pardon me – a “more modest” home. Hell of a system we’ve got here.
Personally I think they should just sell one of their kids to Chinese black market organ farmers. I mean, c’mon – they’ve got six of ’em. Surely they could spare one to improve their lot in life. It’s the American way!
The Other Steve
Actually most Americans have health insurance.
grandpa john
So pete, clue us in on how many of your repub friends do you know of that have followed your advice when taking care of major financial problems. Any of your friends ever sold a house to pay a medical bill? and maybe you should have yourself checked, it appears that your disgust center is out of whack
Kermit
It doesn’t matter what the facts of the case are. it is all a matter of serving theri little bases and planting enough of a seed of doubt so that this can be brought up later and people will be like “oh yeah I remember hearing something about that”. It gives the spokepeople as well as the drones something to retort with. Howard Kurtz will do a report on it and I’m sure the truth of the matter will end up somewhere smack dab in the middle.
jcricket
This was a great quote from the comments at Ezra’s web site:
Seems apropos.
Punchy
Last time I checked, giant refrigerator boxes are free to buy, and rent is miniscule. They can be upgraded at any time, painted any color, and moved with a wagon.
If the family takes my advice, they sell the house, dumpster-dive the local Best Buy (Amana and Kenmore made AWESOME double-wides), and move within blocks of school. Like in the parking lot. Then, they could sell their car, too. Hell, the guy’s a carpenter. He could make a living cutting down trees in the immediate vicinity.
Nope. Instead these rich fucks demand a wooden roof and indoor plumbing. Choices have consequences, Libs.
Mr Furious
I went apeshit on this topic last night at my place, if you feel like checking it out. But as I read this thread, I just can’t get past the fact that assholes like Malkin and Peter think unforeseen tragic medical disasters should mean a family gives up their home and every shred of dignity before they are eligible for some kind of temporary assistance.
What the fuck is wrong with them.
Oh, and fuck Tony Snow. He’s the one that cried poor with a $168K job, after years of being a network anchor who probably made exponentially more than that, and still has ridiculous earning potential.
r€nato
So, in America you should have to sell your home in order to afford health insurance.
But socialized medicine would be worse than this?
Actually, it would… because wrong-wingers believe that life is a zero-sum game, so that they’re not coming out ahead if someone else isn’t being shoved down the economic ladder. That’s what pisses off these rightards, they think that if the Frosts are able to remain middle class despite these challenges, it’s preventing them from being able to afford that Hummer they’ve wanted.
Assholes, one and all. If I were a Republican I’d be profoundly embarrassed to be associated with these scumbags.
Kermit
One more thing. Snark aside, these people came out and publically defended a program that has allowed them to keep their house and live a decent middle class lifestyle. The alternative would be to lose everything and live in destitution. That is their crime. It’s just sad really. I live in Europe by the way and these types of issues baffle people here as it just never comes up in their world. Healthcare or house? That is a choice one never has to make.
Peter Johnson
If you don’t like my arguments against SCHIP, try these from David Brooks.
Jake
Willful ignorance still isn’t painful, I see.
libarbarian
The righties have a point.
As said by Steven Colbert: “Explain this to me: We’re supposed to help folks out of poverty by giving them a financial reward for being poor? That doesn’t add up. If being poor is such a never-ending money party, where is the incentive to get rich??
The same thing is true with healthcare. Socialized Medicine is an incentive to get sick and injured. Everyday I wonder “Why shouldn’t I just shoot myself?” and the only reason I can think of is that I might mess up and have to pay for my own recovery. Well, if the state is just going to pick up the tab I might just decide to do it. Why not shoot yourself, or drink bleach, if the state is just going to pay for it? Why not just dress up in two wetsuits, shove a dildo up your ass, and hogtie yourself with a rope around your neck if you can just count on the nanny-state to bail you out?
r€nato
oh, there’s a reliable and completely credible source.
r€nato
interesting how these arguments for fiscal responsibility are almost always employed against entitlement programs and almost never against the Bush policies of endless war and war profiteering by Halliburton/KBR.
tBone
Here in the glorious US of A we’re not afraid of making the hard choices, unlike you dirty Eurohippies with your wimpy social safety net.
It’s real simple: you can either have a palatial $260K townhome, OR you can have health insurance for your brain-damaged children. Only commies, homos, and Europeans think you should be able to have both.
RSA
Packing crates, for instance. And on David Brooks, you wonder why he doesn’t look at examples of national health care systems in other countries that actually work, at a lower cost. On second though, no, you don’t wonder why.
tBone
You’re got to build your spoof up over weeks or months before you can credibly use a line like this, Pete.
Face
At the risk of getting stomped, I must point out that The Nutters’ arguments are rather Darwinesque, and the progressives quite the opposite.
The sick and weak–those with cancer, diabetes, the mentally retarded, etc–need to die, and quickly (without much expenditure of limited resources) so that the stronger can benefit as a whole. It’s the way most of nature works. Socialized meds skews this whole process, by artifically (literally) keeping those alive who–from a strictly evolutionary point of view–should pass away quickly.
Malkin is in effect demanding “natural selection” and “survival of the fittest” in proclaiming her disdain for what she calls socialized meds.
I don’t agree with her conclusions, but I do recognize that some people think this way.
chopper
hey, i know people who got decent houses in baltimore for about $160K recently. of course, they’re smaller 2BR rowhouses in methy town, not exactly big enough or safe enough for 4 kids, especially if 2 have disabilities to deal with.
see, what the frosts need to do is sell their current house, take the 150K or so they’d walk away with and buy another house that’s big enough for 6 in some shitty-ass neighborhood. and invest money to prep it for their special-needs kids. oh yeah, it has to be close enough to a school like the one the kids are in that can actually handle their needs.
and by the time they’re done and moved, they’ll have enough left over for health insurance! for a few months. then they’re back to square one.
brilliant!
Zifnab
Remember when $6 billion was alot of money? Good times.
LITBMueller
Here’s a bargain for the ‘Nutters:
I will drop all of my calls for socialized medicine in this country if we can end the war today.
You don’t want your tax dollars to go to taking care of people, and I don’t want my tax dollars to go to killing people.
Deal?
r€nato
and everyone knows you can sell your house in a couple days – with a snap of your fingers! It’s just like selling your washer on Craig’s List!
Plus, this is a really, really good time to sell a house!
The Populist
I will repeat this for the mentally challenged righties…
Just because they live in a house worth $260K doesn’t mean they would or could sell it for that amount in this atmosphere. If they took any kind of equity loan then they could be upside down on the house.
Just because Michelle says it’s so doesn’t mean it is.
The Populist
Does Michelle Malkin and many of her ilk take RNC money to run her blog? Is that NOT a form of charity?
r€nato
Democrats vow to pay for their grand spending plans by raising taxes on the rich, even though each one percent increase in the top tax rate only produces $6 billion in revenue.
I’ve said this countless times elsewhere… we will spend $190 billion on the Iraq/Afghanistan wars just in 2008. On top of the ~$500 billion we spend annually on the Pentagon, at a time when no nation on Earth comes even remotely close to challenging American military superiority.
“Our” government spends all it wants on endless war… but we can’t have national health care. There’s your government’s priorities.
Wingnuts are whipped up into a frenzy over the idea that the government might lend a little assistance to a middle-class family in need, while Halliburton is charging $100 for a six pack of Coke at a military base in Iraq, while our $600 million fortress in Baghdad has been constructed only slightly less shoddily than that police training academy which was literally leaking shit and piss from the walls.
This Frost episode is at the crossroads of two strains of thought on the right: the idea that life is a zero-sum game, and the idolization of Dear Leader.
grandpa john
ProBlem with that pete is that on this thread anyway, you have made no arguement against SCHIP. only ad hominem attacks against those in favor of SCHIP and really trying to persuade people by using David Brooks? now really you can do better than that
jcricket
Hmm… I wonder what happened back in 1997 that might be the cause of the decline in uninsured children. Perhaps there was some sort of program passed that helps lower-middle and middle class families get subsidized coverage… No, couldn’t be that simple, could it?
tBone
Simple: Clinton murdered a lot of kids. Fewer kids=fewer uninsured kids.
gypsy howell
Malkin is in effect demanding “natural selection” and “survival of the fittest” in proclaiming her disdain for what she calls socialized meds.
Ironic that this argument would be from the party that doesn’t believe in evolution.
Zifnab
In a way, he ushered in a revolution. Our country will never be the same again.
jcricket
Either that or he sold the kids to the satanic child abuse cults, who then killed them. Same diff.
28 Percent
Peter is right it is nice to see there is somebody on this LIBTARD blog who talks sense! The Frosts should sell theyre house to take care of there kids themselves. There are other people who do not have there expenses who could afford that house if the Frosts did not drive prices up by owning a home themselves so the Frosts are hurting the economy by owning instead of renting it is supply and demand maybe you have not heard of it. Owning a home is the American Dream it is LIEBERALS like you John Cole who want to destroy the American Dream by making it something that just any American can get even if they have an accident. If everybody can get it it isn’t a dream, is it? That is logic maybe you should try it but I do not think you will. The Frosts think they are helping there children but they are not they are hurting them by making them depend on the government. They should be teaching them to be more independent by selling their house and business and taking real jobs and renting instead. That is real FREEDOM try it you might like it.
Too true!
The Other Andrew
They may not believe in evolution, but they absolutely believe in social darwinism.
I love this strategy, though. “Okay, so 70% of the country is against us on this issue…should we tone it down and try to salvage a few small victories, or should we turn the smear machine against a disabled kid and hope that this charms the public into agreeing with us?”
Seriously, guys–keep talking. You’re your own worst enemies.
Detlef
Anyone visited TBogg lately?
He covers a “nice” Malkin post from 2004.
Tsulagi
This whole thing is just example #xxx of the pampered brats who insist on being indulged. They really have transformed into the Party of Bush.
Rather than discuss the SCHIP program itself and the merits of an expansion, focus the attention on a 12-year-old, peek through his windows, and demonize his parents. In September rather than carefully examine the testimony of a political general and have a debate if anything more can be accomplished militarily to justify staying in Iraq, scream you’ve been wounded by an ad. Demonize the group placing it and the newspaper running it.
They always look for the perceived soft target on the side to deflect attention from the real issue. Then they whip themselves up in a victimhood frenzy. They’re warriors like that. They attack. Vengeance is mine sayeth The Sisters of Perpetual Victimhood and Indulgence brigades!
Yes, now they’ve been wounded by a 12-year-old reading a script thanking a program that significantly helped him. Tactics beyond contempt. Say like this jackass who filled a stage full of children and their parents to celebrate vetoing medical research.
Hey, do we have photos of the kitchen countertops in those snowflake babies’ houses? Have their parents been investigated to see if their family expenses can be justified? Do the snowflakes’ schools teach creationism, or do they go the standard lefty commie science curriculum? Important stuff to know.
Nylund
If they sell the house, they have to pay off the mortgage, and possibly pay capital gains taxes on the profit. Its very reasonable to expect that they wouldn’t end up with much at all after that…especially when you factor in the costs of buying a new house, all the bank and broker fees, and the cost of moving in and out of a house.
Even under the best circumstances, they couldn’t even pay off a teeny fraction of their medical bills. And, they have tried to get insurance before and gotten rejected for “pre existing conditions” so getting more money won’t even fix that whatsoever. Its not so much about a lack of money, but a lack of being able to get insurance, period, due to the messed up way the insurance industry is currently set up.
Plus, even if they did get insurance, the company would surely weasel their way out those payments as they are prone to do.
The simple truth is that they were in a hard place, and they found a solution. Walmart tells their employees to get insurance from the government, but the wingnuts see no problem with that for some reason.
Basically, they believe republican organizations and corporations deserve billions in subsidies and no-bid contracts, but working lower middle-class Americans deserve nothing but scorn. Those are your wingnut values. Plain and simple.
Peter Johnson
Ha ha. Enough with that one already. Michelle believes in evolution, Riehl believes in evolution, I believe in evolution. Just because some evangelicals don’t doesn’t make it a “conservative” opinion.
I don’t come here and attribute everything Cindy Sheehan believes to you. I just think you’re wrong about SCHIP. You don’t have to go trolling through the old list of liberal insults for conservatives.
Rick Taylor
There’s one thing that still baffles me, and I’d appreciate it if someone would correct me if I have my facts wrong.
President Bush never said he wanted to eliminate SCHIP. He said he was vetoing this bill because it extended the coverage too far, and he wanted the congress to pass a bill continuing but not expanding the coverage, which he would then sign.
So I don’t see why the administration and the right wing hasn’t argued from this position (perhaps the administration has and I’ve simply missed it). They could argue, look, it’s great the Frost’s are getting health insurance; of course we support that, and the Democrats are being dishonest by saying otherwise. The current plan would cover a family of four up to $60,000 which is above the income level of the Frost’s. We just object to them expanding the coverage beyond those who truly need it; that’s going beyond a safety net and towards government run healthcare. When the President vetos SCHIP, of course it’s not going to die. The congress will then pass a compromise version that doesn’t expand it beyond it’s current levels.
Whether one agrees or disagrees with the argument, I think it’s pretty effective. The Republican’s are still cast as compassionate conservatives, who are just fiscally responsible who only believe in government solutions when the market doesn’t have a solution. And it avoids descending into the gutter; the Frost’s houses or schools become utterly irrelevant. And they even get to tag the Democrats for dishonesty.
This seems to me to be the argument President Bush was making in the first place, so I don’t get why he or someone in the administration didn’t push it hard and quick immediately after the ad. (And again maybe they did and I missed it)
Now the right wing has taken over the argument, and their associating Republicanism with opposing SCHIP altogether, using attacks that have got to be disgusting the majority of people who object to all government aid to the poor on principle.
Maybe I’m missing something, but they seem to be shooting themselves in the foot purely for spite.
I haven’t been following things closely, so I may have some basic facts about the President’s position wrong, and if so I’d appreciate a correction.
LITBMueller
Priceless, Detlef. Absolutely priceless.
Anyone know how much Michelle’s house is worth? Maybe somebody should do a slow drive-by and some “reporting.” Time to tell her lazy husband to get a job and sell those grantite countertops!
flitterbic
“Gypsy, they could sell their house, move to a more modest one and use the proceeds to buy healthcare, the same way most Americans do.”
Simply go out and “buy healthcare”. Here’s a news flash: health insurance isn’t for sick people. This is part of the equation that supporters of private insurance-only refuse to acknowledge.
17 years ago I was diagnosed with MS after some annoying tingling in my arm. I have never needed any treatment or medications – ever – and hope I am one of the fortunate few with a form of MS that gets no worse. My actual condition matters not to insurance companies. Years ago I tried to get a high-deductible ($20,000) catastrophic health policy for myself through a small business organization. The initial quote was about $200 a month for a man of only 35 years. When I then threw in my MS diagnosis it went to $2,100 a month – even though I have never required any treatment.
I own a small business and pay 100% of my employees’ health insurance premiums. I do so because I’m a heck of a nice guy but also because it’s also the only way I can get coverage for myself – being part of a group.
So, the argument that people can just go get and “shop” insurance for themselves is ridiculous.
ninerdave
Too bad she’s in denial about evolution.
ThymeZone
The battle for relevancy in the blogs goes on … as long as comments like these show up regularly, the relvance of blogs is in serious danger. Is there really that much ignorance out there on this subject?
Let me explain it to you: This country is sitting on a healthcare timebomb, with several lit fuses. If you don’t get that, and get how utterly stupid the above comment is, then you really need to get an education and stop wasting peoples’ time posting shit on the blogs.
I am a six-figure household. I have my name on two house deeds with properties that have a combined value in the mid six figures. I have three times as much cash as I have retail debt. And I am one 911 call away from bankruptcy without my health insurance
All those happy numbers I quoted mean nothing when I have my next heart attack and I have no health insurance. Nothing.
The fact that a family lives in a $260 house means NOTHING in this story. Not one fucking thing. And if some of you are so clueless that you don’t understand that, then you better get off your ass and take stock of your own situation, because you are one bad day away from being totally fucked. A car accident or a blod clot can wipe out your family just like that.
That, friends, is the American Health Care System, and anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar.
Peter Johnson
What has that got do with anything? She isn’t trying to pay for her family’s health care on the government’s dime. The day she does start trying, you are all welcome to look through all of her financial records. Until then, she’s a private citizen.
jcricket
Yep. Or perhaps your company will just subtly change your insurance one year and it will have (oh) 1/2 the previous lifetime maximum. Or perhaps you’re already at your lifetime maximum due to having MS. In either case, even though you have insurance you’ll end up in bankruptcy as you continue to cover the condition you have.
Or perhaps you’ll be wedded to an under-paying job with the only employer in town who provides benefits that cover kids with autism, so although you’ll cover your kids condition, you’ll end up close to broke when you “retire” (because you’ve been underpaid for 30+ years).
My parents, my friends, and my family are all like TZ – Well into upper middle class. Yet simple things like an MS diagnosis can mean 10s of thousands in healthcare costs until Medicare kicks in for my parents (potentially postponing retirement well into their late 70s). Or an allergic reaction to bee-sting can cost $5-10k in a hospital visit because my sister’s family has only a high-deductible/catastrophic plan (yes, they can afford it, but how much economic loss is there every time that kind of thing happens). Or I lose my job and have to pay another $5k a year to be on my wife’s health insurance (which also costs money if I use it) – which I can barely afford to do. Just imagine if my wife wasn’t working and was covered under my insurance and I lose my job (then we’re all uninsured and broke until I find another job).
TZ is exactly right. Unless Americans wake up and realize that the American model of health insurance is fundamentally broken and not salvageable, we will continue to suffer the consequences. As with Iraq/Iran Republicans are completely impervious to the facts about healthcare and are therefore to be completely ignored.
jcricket
Never attribute to malice that which can equally be explained by stupidity. Or something like that.
Republicans think all sorts of wing-nut-esque behavior is “winning” for them these days. Despite ever worsening poll numbers and real-world disasters created by their actions, they trench themselves in ever deeper into their right-wing bunkers. Terri Schiavo, Michael J Fox, the Frosts – their path of destruction mainly serves to alienate anyone not already on the Democrats side, but they’ll never see it.
Fine by me.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
You’re the King Of Strawmen these days, John. The quote didn’t say they were “rich” — it said they weren’t “very poor” and didn’t need SCHIP. I happen to think that’s a silly statement on the face of it (if they qualified for SCHIP, then they are entitled to its full use), but it’s not a contradiction of what we said about Al Gore’s ridiculous notions of tax increases only for “the rich.”
And seriously, what is this? SEVEN posts in a few days on this nonsense that has both sides acting their worst and most partisan, and still not one on Norman Hsu? You used to at least pretend to be even-handed. I guess that Markos finally sent your Townhouse Talking Points membership card in the mail.
ThymeZone
Wise up, spoofy butthead. Your Republican friends have sold this country down the river, pouring a trillion dollars into the sand of Iraq and leaving American citizens the only true middle class society on earth without government health care protection. And now the lipstick is coming off the pig of your value system in a hurricane of fuckups and bad news, and what are you doing here? The usual tossing of rocks from the side of the road? Go away, for crissakes. Or else say something intelligent.
I’m just offering you the latter alaternative as, you know, a courtesy. Not that you’d actually be up to it.
tBone
Ah, the obligatory “John you’re a leftard now LOL” troll. Not up to your usual standards, Mac.
LITBMueller
Actually, Petey, she did try to get health coverage using YOUR tax dollars:
I guess you didn’t know that COBRA stands for Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act. That’s federal legislation. And, while, under its provisions, Michelle’s family would have had to pay for the full amount of her husband’s former employer’s group insurance plan (plus a 2% administration fee), the COBRA program is overseen and administered by the good ole Federal government (they print brochures, make sure businesses are complying, etc.).
Your tax dollars in action: asking the Malkins to pay for something they could not afford!
Peter Johnson
Can we agree that this argument is
(a) Not about the worth of Michelle’s house.
(b) Not about Norman Hsu.
(c) Not about evolution.
And take it from there?
Peter Johnson
And
(d) Not about John Cole being a co-opted leftard now.
As well?
Zifnab
To be fair, the wingnuts aren’t arguing that a family of six kids living on a $45k / year income should go without insurance. They simply argue that a family of six kids living on a $45k / year income should pay full rates for insurance just like everyone else*.
It’s really not that unreasonable.
*This does not include those with gold-plated health insurance included in their salaries like Malkin et al, nor does it refer to those 45 million people who cannot afford health insurance because they weren’t smart enough to get jobs that offer gold-plated health insurance like Malkin et al. Nor does it include those who aren’t self-employed, because wtf? Who starts his own business when he can’t afford lavish health insurance packages? Take some personal responsibility for Pete’s sake and get a job at a mega-corp as middle management if you can’t start a company that instantly covers all your overhead.
Krista
Not according to an awful lot of comments I’ve been seeing over at Riehl’s, Michelle Malkin’s, and even in response to the Baltimore Sun article. According to many of those folks, the Frosts should have looked the State of Maryland in the eye, said, “I’ll be damned before I take your government-funded insurance, you bastards!”, and sold everything they own in order to be able to pay for their own private health insurance. According to some of these folks, THAT’s the proper American way. Taking advantage of SCHIP becuase they were found eligible? Those hippie slackers! How dare they? Especially when they can obviously afford a pumpkin and flowers in front of their house? And look! She has a tattoo on her foot! How much did THAT cost?
I wish I were exaggerating. I really do. But that’s precisely what an awful lot of people are saying.
tBone
This is an excellent point. If they’re so “destitute,” she should have used ballpoint pen ink and a needle to give herself a tattoo. But nooooooo, she’d rather suck up my tax dollars and spend them on a professional tattoo artist. And that pumpkin! Do you have any idea what those things cost per pound? These people really have no shame.
chopper
so what you’re saying is, the moment you sign up for any government-based health care, such as, oh, i don’t know, medicare, medicaid, schip etc, you are no longer a “private citizen”.
that’s nice. no, wait, what’s the word…moronic.
The Populist
What has that got do with anything? She isn’t trying to pay for her family’s health care on the government’s dime. The day she does start trying, you are all welcome to look through all of her financial records. Until then, she’s a private citizen.
It has a lot to do with what’s happening here. She’s NOT a private citizen if she is arguing that the Frost’s aren’t either. She is a celebrity and pundit, therefore her life is just as much our business due to her high profile.
If the Frost’s are supposedly no longer private citizens, neither is she.
The Populist
I’m sorry, I mean to say her life winds up being our business due to her chosen line of work.
The Populist
With regards to evolution maybe Michelle is enlightened, but she sure does go out of her way to cowtow to the religious right’s POV.
Tax Analyst
Now THAT’S a SPOOF! BRAVO! HUZZAH! ALL THAT OTHER CRAP PEOPLE YELL OUT WHEN THEY’RE TOTALLY JAZZED OVER WEIRD SHIT!
28 Percent, it is a privilege to be witness to your spoofery.
Tax Analyst
Rick, Uh-uh…not enough Raw Meat for the Faithful to gnaw on.
“Bring me the head of a 12-year-old accident victim…OH…and the rest of his family, too, ’cause remember, we’re the Family Values People.” (Wish I knew how to make that “Trademark” signification, but I don’t)
Tax Analyst
Yeah, if she was a REAL AMERICAN she woulda carved it on her foot herself with an old, rusty needle or used razor blade and then jammed a cheap Bic pen into the open wound or something equally ludicrous. Then they coulda maybe afforded their own health insurance and not leeched off the rest of us hard-working REAL AMERICANS. (Say, buddy…could you hand me my boot-strap? I’m having trouble reaching it, my fat, jealous, materially obsessed ass is in the way.)
whippoorwill
Lambchop,
You’re never going to get into Malkin’s pants with pussified defeatocrat surrender monkeying tripe like this. Why, she’ll chew you up into a thousand little pieces and feed her she-cat with your sorry carcass for the next year.
Besides, we’re disappointed when trolls end up agreeing with us. It’s just no fun at all when that happens. So buck up man, get some better anti-child material, and come on back.
DougJ
This whole threat is just too funny. Good work, people.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
Greatest Country On Earth with the best doctors on Earth, and foreigners lining up to get a piece of that “Republican” health care. Coincidence? I think not.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
Well, at the risk of getting too close to MM’s pants (which my wife and I both would not be keen about) you guys are wrong that a child is being “attacked” or “stalked” by MM, and John’s wrong about the entire “Al Gore” part of this post, as I showed above.
If that makes you feel any better.
ThymeZone
Those are slogans, not facts, and are entirely subjective.
We don’t have the best healthcare on earth, we have the most expensive. Some of it is the best, and some is not, but the main problem is availability. Without availability, supposed quality means nothing. The best care that is unavailable to you is worth nothing to you.
Comforting to those who can’t get the care to watch the Saudi 747 land in Phoenix so that the royal family can get American healthcare. Try to sell that benefit in the next election, will you? “The Saudis can afford American healthcare, what’s your fucking problem?”
Your sillyassed wisecrack doesn’t stand up to even the most superficial scrutiny.
Cut the crap, dude. Either do proper spoof, or take up another hobby. Your act isn’t up to the requirements of this issue.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
Are you just finding out that there are a-holes in comment sections, Krista? Come on, you’ve known TZ for years!
Peter Johnson
I’m going to have to agree with you there.
But it sure is interesting that most on the left want to degrade our health care system while most on the right are proud of it. Not sure what that says about general attitude but it sure says something.
John Cole
That isn’t the case at all.
Most on the left say “Our health care is great- if you can get it and if you don’t get dropped by your insurance. Then you are fucked.”
Most on the right say “Our health care is great, I have insurance, and fuck anyone who doesn’t.”
ThymeZone
Actually, they want to improve access to it, not degrade it. It’s a subtle distinction, for sure, but try to get your arms around it.
whippoorwill
P.. Johnson
The left does not want to degrade our healthcare system. That’s a stupid remark on it’s surface. Liberals are trying to get people like you to face realty. Nobody I know wants a complete government run system but the facts are the system we have now is failing too many people and something has to be done. I’m not just talking about people who can’t afford or otherwise can’t get health insurance. The problem is also growing into those who thought they had good coverage and learn that just isn’t the case when they try to use their insurance.
Currently, more than 20% of every dollar goes to administrative costs of paperwork and whatnot. This is compared to only 2% for Medicare. It’s not a matter of the left “degrading” our health care system, it’s a matter of saving it before it completely collapses. It’s true that many of us on the left believe that single payer coverage is the best way to fix the problem. That would compose a kind of hybrid system between government and the private sector.
Jake
Peter Hugh Johnson is right! This is an all too common pattern. The left wants to degrade the military by getting it the fuck out of Iraq before it breaks, while the right is proud of it so it wants to leave it there forever and ever. The left wants to degrade America by insisting the President follow the Constitution and other quaint notions. The right is so proud of America that it doesn’t care what the President does provided he can say he is doing it to protect America. And now the left is once again after children! If they were proud of children like the right they wouldn’t dare suggest they have adequate health care.
I bet the left is made up of the sort of people who regularly check their cars’ fluid levels and brakes while the right is so proud of their cars, they unhook the “Check Engine” light and drive until the engine fuses into a big hunk of metal.
DYSB!!
chopper
eeeeeexactly.
and TZ, you haveta realize that to many on the right improving access to our healthcare system is degrading it. more stupid poor people in the waiting room, etc etc.
Krista
All right, ‘fess up. Whose long-term BJ commenter hand wields the sockpuppet that is EEEL? Your mask is slipping, my friend.
But, just for argument’s sake, I’ll address your comment. I’ve always known that there are a-holes in comments sections. Heck, I’ve been an a-hole in comments sections.
Some of these people, though? Chillingly heartless is what they are. They’d have you on your knees, starving and with no dignity left, before they’d deign to approve of you taking charity (they wouldn’t actually GIVE you charity, they just wouldn’t be outraged over you seeking it.)
chopper
you have concrete countertops, don’t you krista.
Tax Analyst
And you would think that such a drag on the economy would bother most “Conservatives”. That all the needless costs the current system generates would lead them to look for a more efficient system (or “systems”) that would also serve the population better…and apparently you would be wrong to think that, because the waste and loss of productivity doesn’t appear to bother them at all…until their maid calls in because she has to take her kid to the emergency room for an ear infection.
…it then it REALLY bums them out to have to fire that maid…she was really pretty good except for all those “absences”.
Tax Analyst
But Krista, don’t you know the poor ARE poor because they are bad people? It’s true, I saw it over at Dan Riehl’s blog…whatzitcalled? “Bedlam”, right?
RSA
Sorry, too subtle. If access to health care increases for poor people, there’s the faint possibility that it will reduce the time that doctors have to take care of rich people. Or something like that. We just can’t have it!
ThymeZone
Yes, point taken, although around here we call those people greasers.
We are sure that if it weren’t for the illegals clogging up the magnetic resonance scanners with their chorizo-induced constipation, healthcare would be so cheap you wouldn’t need frigging insurance.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
Heh, your hilarious lack of self-awareness makes coming to this place worth all the aggravating drivel.
jcricket
Yes, the left wants to have a substantive policy debate about the facts surrounding healthcare, like how every single study shows nationalized healthcare provides universal coverage at lower costs and with better outcomes than our system. The right wants the debate to go “SOCIALIZED MEDICINE! SOCIALIZED MEDICINE! CASTRO! RUSSIA! POL POT! STALIN! HITLER! NAZIS” and have you conclude they’re right.
Most issues are this way these days. The “left” (or rather, the Democrats) consist of a wide variety of opinions, usually agreeing only on a broad outline of things, and otherwise disagreeing vigorously about the details. They (Democrats) tend to have things like, I dunno, debates, and argue about facts and figures.
The “right” (Republicans and their allies) may similarly disagree, but not in any way that matters. They tend to have things like “circle jerks” and “2 minute hates” and otherwise spend their time stalking their perceived enemies (the 70% of Americans who disagree with them).
Perhaps I’m being hyperbolic. But given recent events, perhaps not.
TenguPhule
Yes indeed, EEEL. Your spoofatacular performance is always a winner.
TenguPhule
Shorter Peter Johnson: Houses are Liquid Commodities with no transaction costs and everybody uses them to borrow a shitload of money to pay for healthcare on my planet.
EL
A few problems, Peter Johnson. They could never, no matter if they sold all their assets down their shoes, afford the health care their children need. Take a look at http://www.neurologychannel.com/tbi/ which a number:
The Frosts have two survivors of severe traumatic brain injury to care for. Those numbers are for the “average” survivor of severe TBI, which means older than a 12 year old, you can bet. So more years to worry about, more money needed.
Second is that at this point the Frosts are unlikely to be able to buy anything but a highrisk pool government subsidized insurance since no profit making insurance company would take them. But it doesn’t take much to get turned down for health insurance, I’ve heard of people turned down for intermittent moderate asthma (never had to be hospitalized) for reflux if they are taking PPI drugs (protonix, prilosec, etc.).
ThymeZone
My lord, you are bad at this.
Tapetum
Mmm. Selling a house to pay for health insurance. Let’s see – the last time I got a quote for private insurance it was $835/month for two healthy people with no health problems (though to be fair it was about half that if we agreed to no pregnancy coverage whatsoever (even catastrophic)). The last time I sold a house (nearly 8 years after the insurance quote), after time on market, realtor costs, taxes, etc. etc., we got a whopping $283 dollars out of the transaction.
The math, she no work.
U NO HOO
What was Nancy Pelosi thinking when she pushed a twelve year old in front of a microphone?
Conservatives have a david brock also.