Jed Babbin, writing in Human Events, discusses something I had thought about the other day but thought was too crazy:
Congressional Democrats anxious to force a withdrawal of American forces from Iraq are frustrated by their inability to muster a veto-proof majority for legislation that would establish a firm date for retreat. But what they cannot do directly they are now working hard to do indirectly.
According to Defense Secretary Robert Gates, Incirlik Air Base near Adana, Turkey is the transshipment point for about 70% of all air cargo (including 33% of the fuel) going to supply US forces in Iraq. Included are about 95% of the new “MRAP” — mine-resistant, ambush-protected — vehicles designed to save the lives of American troops. Turkey wasn’t always this helpful. In 2003, the Turks refuse permission for the 4th Infantry Division to enter Iraq through Turkey.
***Speaker Pelosi is apparently so intent on forcing an end to American involvement in Iraq that she is willing to interfere in our tenuous friendship with Turkey. When she does, it will be an historic event: the House of Representatives will be responsible for alienating a key ally in time of war and possibly interdicting supplies to US troops.
There is no reason to push this resolution other than to attempt to sabotage our relationship with Turkey at a critical juncture. I understand the desire to end the war in Iraq, I really do, but I have had enough “end justifies the means” bullshit from the Bush White House. I don’t need it from Pelosi, too.
The route to ending the war in Iraq is through real, actual leadership. Refuse to pass the appropriations bills in bulk, and instead require daily or weekly votes to pay for one day at a time. There are many tools at the Democrat’s disposal- their failure to use them is not justification to sabotage already tenuous international relationships (and really, Bush does a fine job of ruining relationships on his own).
Not only will it potentially leave our troops in a pinch, endangering lives, it plays right into the Republican playbook. They are already writing the story for future generations of wingnuts (even as they declare victory), and in that narrative, the Democrats lost the war. There is no reason to write a chapter for them in that fictional book.
I can think of no reason why this legislation condemning a near century old genocide needs to go forward. This is bad policy, bad politics, bad diplomacy, bad behavior, and most of all, bad leadership. It simply doesn’t pass the smell test.
*** Update ***
You all think I am full of shit and wrong to assume this as a motive for Pelosi (something that is hard to prove, especially with the numerous Republican co-sponsors). Perhaps.
This is still a pointless bill at a horrible time. Period.
crayz
If you read the wiki it’s clear that it’s been just the past couple years that many countries have been recognizing the genocide. You make it sound as if Pelosi just arbitrarily thought this up as a ploy to piss off the Turks
That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if some Democrats would see a Turkish backlash as at least having a positive aspect to it
rilkefan
See comments in this Obsidian Wings thread for the “if not now, then when” view.
J. Michael Neal
You’ve bought into the wingnut propaganda about this business. I think that the timing of a resolution on the slaughter of Armenians, though as Mark Kleiman points out, there are some good reasons for it as a general matter. However, there is a much better explanation for the timing than the one being pushed here. The more likely reason is that Speaker Pelosi’s district contains a large and vocal Armenian-American population that have been pushing this measure for decades. For the first time, someone of either party in a largely Armenian district is in a position within the House leadership. Hence, you see movement on something that group wants.
It doesn’t require any conspiracy theory.
Media Glutton
I’ve been thinking about this over the past couple of days, too: The Democratic leadership is too cowardly to call out its own members who won’t cut off the Iraq War funds, and yet they push through a LITERALLY WORTHLESS bill that pisses off Turkey, is unpopular at home, and could very well lead to making the Iraq situation worse. And for what? So we can say we did the right thing about a genocide that took place NEARLY 100 YEARS AGO?? I. do. not. get it.
MBunge
So, we should have avoided any condemnation of the Holocaust in the 1950s or 60s because we needed the support of the West Germans during the Cold War? When exactly is it “okay” and “not okay” to condemn genocide? Frankly, if the Turks are still so damn sensitive about something that happened nearly a century ago, that’s pretty good evidence that it needs to be publicly condemned.
And come the frick on! The idea that Nancy Pelosi is such a political mastermind that she (or any Democrat in the House) could even attempt, let alone pull off, the bank shot Babbin describes is a joke! He’s just trying to throw some mud against the wall and you’re helping make it stick.
Mike
John Cole
I dunno. Any time in the last 90 years since this took place?
It does not need to advance now. Spare me the ‘If not now, when’ BS.
I thought of it on my own, days ago, and this just reminded me of it.
Regardless, it is not propaganda. If the bill goes forward, Turkey is on record that there will be fallout. Shelve it till our troops are out.
Timb
The day I listen to Jed Babbin, as crazy as a Right wing loon as there is, is the day I listen to Limbaugh or Neal Boortz. Think about this, Babbin is allegedly a defense expert, yet he is so strange, so paranoid, and so rigid that THIS administration would not bring him to the Defense Dept at any level. You have to be Ted Nugent crazy to be skipped over by the Rumsfeldians.
John Cole
Why all the hate for Sweaty Teddy?
And yes, Jed Babbin is nuts, and yes that is Human Events. Thing is, I think he is right.
Evilbeard
This is a case of seriously stupid bad timing. Personally, I think the Turks need to cop to what happened back then. They’re a completely different country now, even to their name and this incident is no shame on modern Turkey.
Now is not the time to call them on it though. I am beginning to understand why the Democratic Party loses so many elections, our leaders are frickin stupid. My senator (Feinstein) will not be getting my vote in the next or any other elections.
Evilbeard
I dunno, maybe because he is an insane jackass?
capelza
I can’t begin to understand Turkish politics…though even Ataturk early on recognised that the Armenians had been butchered. In fact repeating what HE said could land you in jail now. Perhaps it is the post WW2 coonection with the Holocaust.
Turkey will remind us that 2 and half million of their own people died in eastern Anatolia at the same time. They see a resolution condemning what happened under the Ottoman empire as a move to be used by Armenian nationaists. These things I have gathered from reading about it. They see it as a one-sided attack on them. That and the weird “anti-Turkishness” laws that do not reflect well on them at all.
I don’t know if the new government is supportive of those laws as they seem to reflect the views of the secular/military rulers. Will the new government want free-speech for all or jus those who want a more religious free-speech.
The timing does indeed suck. I realise all the reasons for it being brought now, but still think it is bone stupid. The PKK IS a terrorist organisation. I actually don’t blame Turkey for wanting to get them. But we are witnessing just another fight in a region that has been fighting for pretty much the same thing for thousands of years. We (and I mean the West) stepped into it and still don’t understand how old this is.
MBunge
John Cole – “I dunno. Any time in the last 90 years since this took place?
It does not need to advance now. Spare me the ‘If not now, when’ BS.”
And why, exactly, do you think such a condemnation hasn’t been passed by Congress before this? What you don’t seem to grasp is that things like this never NEED to happen. There’s always some reason to put them off, reasons that people like you get behind. But whenever a particular reason ceases to be (like when Iraq becomes a Bushian Utopia), you may stop opposing the condemnation…but I doubt you’re suddenly going to join the chorus demanding it happen. No, it’ll just go back to being one of those issues you don’t think about while the people calling for the condemnation have to deal with a whole bunch of new “reasons” why it shouldn’t be done right now.
There will never be a perfect time to do something like this and I see no reason to believe that if we “wait just a bit longer” that it will become more likely it will happen.
Mike
The Other Steve
Apparently, they’ve been trying to get this passed for the last twenty years or so.
The Republicans in control of house and senate had no interest in condemning genocide.
So this was on the agenda for the new Democratic congress for some time.
I don’t have a problem with it. I don’t understand why Turkey has a problem with it. They should frankly get over it. What they did in the past was wrong, and modern Turks ought ot recognize that and move on. Just as any number of other countries have recognized mistakes that they themselves have made in the past. Including America with our history of slavery and oppression of native peoples.
It’s just a resolution. It’s not binding on anybody, it just says “this was a bad thing.”
Nobody is suggesting the United States invade Turkey.
Good god, we just passed a worthless resolution about Iran. Give me a fucking break.
The Other Steve
Perhaps if the Democrats added language threatening to invade Turkey, the Republicans would support the bill?
El Cruzado
I’m no expert in what gets discussed in the smoke-filled room where the Democratic Party masterminds craft their crafty plans, but this sounds to me a lot as another brick in the building of the Dochstosslegende (sp?) edifice.
There will never be any proof of it, and it most likely be utterly and completely false, but it will be gospel to the wingnuts soon, and regularly revive its zombified corpse for the next few decades.
whippoorwill
What kind of ally refuses permission to allow the 4th I.D. to enter Iraq, which in fact did cause deaths of our GI’s
I was against the war from the beginning but forcing our troops to enter only from the south created big strategic problems that could possibly have changed the course of the war at least to a slight degree.
I really don’t care what Turkey thinks and the only real fallout would be for us to close Incirlik and move it somewhere else. Also, it would cause us to leave the way we came in. Like Hoyer said on FNS Turkey has a lot more to lose than we do.
I think the Kurds are a much better ally than Turkey and it is on their soil we should base our military interests for the region . I believe we should support a Kurdish state in Iraq and if Turkey or any other country doesn’t like it, then tough cookies for them.
It may mean we would even fight Turkey who want now to invade Kurdistan right now. That would be a fight I’d support for the American military, although it’s doubtful it would come to that.
At the risk of pissing you off, I’m not with you on this one. I’m just a big fan of the Kurds and believe they are truly a friend of the US.
The Other Steve
Are they? I’m just asking a question. I haven’t studied this in depth, but it seems that every PKK attack I hear of is against Turkish police or military.
What does it mean to be a terrorist?
sashal
I would not worry too much, John , about another toothless product from our congress.
How many resolution you will recall , which condemned China or Russia or whoever.
The world is still spinning and we still have meaningful relationships with those countries.
Turkey will not leave NATO and will not cut diplomatic relationship with USA.
Genocide had happened.
Germans admitted to it, Russians did, why should Turkey be spared the hurt feelings. Fact of history. Does not mean we should hate Turks now. We do not hate Germans for what their grandfathers did.
John Cole
So why help them mix the mortar?
And here is another question- why do we even need to make these pointless resolutions? I know I am a newly minted lefty, but even as a wingnut, I was operating under the assumption that our default position was anti-genocide.
capelza
You know, I wonder if the Turks wouldn’t mind the resolution so much if a rider was added also condemning the PKK and recognising that there are terrorists operating out of Iraqi Kurdistan?
And the PKK IS a terrorist organisation. We invaded two countries because of terroists in their midst (or in the case of Iraq, imagined terrorists)…yet we are bitchy that the Turks are considering or actually doing the exact same thing?
It is a bit hypocritical.
The Other Steve
I agree. I think it’s horrible of the Bush administration to suggest stabbing our Kurdish friends in the back, just because he’s afraid of hurting Turkey’s feelings.
That would be such a wonderful way for Bush to really make Iraq into a noble failure. To fuck over the Kurds.
The Other Steve
I used to think being against torture was the default position of this nation.
This resolution is an attempt to force the issue, and make it clear that the US default position is anti-genocide. A moral clarity that we have lacked under the Bush administration.
capelza
TOC, the PKK has been involved in the killing, and kidnapping of cilvilians (including kidnapping western tourists from resorts.
Take some time to read up on the PKK. Think Che or the Shining Path.
Wilfred
For one thing, moder, secular Turks do not feel the need to inherit the sins of the Ottoman Empire. Attributing the sins of that Empire to modern Turkey smacks of racialism for the very reason you imply when raising the issue of slavery in the United States. Those were actions inflicted by Americans, i.e. a political identity, not a racial or ethnic one.
Lantos is the absolute darling of the Christian Zionists and has repeatedly taken strong public positions against Israel giving back any of the land it has stolen on the West Bank, a direct contravention of US foreign policy that doesn’t seem to bother anyone. Ackerman is an Aipac shill. Both facts are significant because this is an effort to undermine the Islamists in Turkey, the ones who prevented the Turkish government from letting the invasion go through Turkey and whose credibility rises every year that Turkey fails to gain entry into the EU – the Europeans will never allow that. The actions of pre-Kemalist Turkey are always associated with the non-secular government of the past. i.e. Muslims. The genocide vote strengthens the hand of the secular, Israel-aligned militarists who can thus distance themselves further from the actions of Ottoman Turks. Remember, Turkey just elected a formerly Islamist President.
Babbin is an idiot, his argument is just smoke and mirrors.
sashal
the Other Steve:
ditto to that
The Other Steve
See in my world, I say let the Turks invade Iraq and meet the full brunt of the US military Leviathon force.
I also think the US Congress should issue a resolution making it clear that if Taiwan is threatened, the US military will come to their defense in full, including the use of nuclear deterent if necessary.
I’m funny that way. I like to defend friends, and I don’t care if they have oil or not.
Punchy
Name them. Go ahead, I’m waiting.
Pass a bill? Filibustered. Or vetoed
Cut off funding? Politically impossible. Plus, no diff than what you’re bitching at Pelosi for.
Ask really nicely? WAIT!! We haven’t tried that one yet! I bet that will work.
It appears Cole has been fitted with a new Republican-style tinfoil hat. Oh, and by the way…the resolution? Gotta a LOT of f’in votes from your Republican party. Blame the Dems? STFU.
jenniebee
The resolution apparently has 225 co-sponsors, R’s as well as D’s, and the vote to get it out of committee was not party-line. If you can figure those two things into the Pelosi end-run strategy without blunting Occam’s Razor, I’d like to hear it.
Rick Taylor
I’m not convinced that that the Democrats have the motives you impute to them, but I agree with your conclusion; this is a bad time to bringing this bill up now, and even a poster on Atrios’s site agrees (much as it pains him to agree with Bush about anything). link: http://atrios.blogspot.com/2007_10_14_archive.html#8032518275496500078 (I tried to embed this link, but it didn’t work).
In a vacuum, I’d be for this, but we’ve been treating. Turkey, a democracy who’s help we need, like shit for years, not least of all by destabilizing their neighbor. Juan Cole, also no friend of President Bush, has more. We just don’t have the moral capital at this point to be taking the high ground. I recommend the link in its entirety, but here’s an excerpt:
demimondian
TOS…capelza’s right: the PKK is a pretty nauseous bunch. That said…Turkey hasn’t been exactly a bastion of sweetness and light towards the Kurds, either.
Bottom line, there *was* a genocide, and it’s long past time that the Turks acknowledged it. And you know what else, John? You should go read the propaganda which was spread about sanctions against South Africa about twenty years ago. I think you’ll find it eerily reminiscent of what we’re hearing now. Interesting how those terrible outcomes didn’t happen, isn’t it?
Mike
Does it? I’m in the next district over, and I’ve never heard of these numerous, vocal Armenians.
The Other Steve
That appears to be back in 1993/1994 time frame. All recent news I have found indicates they abandoned that tactic.
Not saying it’s not wrong. But if we are to condemn a group for something that happened ten years ago, why not condemn a group for something that happened ninety years ago?
capelza
Wilfred I agree. What is also left out of this is that Turkey and international couts-martials and trials were held regarding this in 1919. Men were sentenced to death in absentia (because they had escaped or fled).
whippoorwill
I’m not so sure the dems are offering this resolution to somehow attack Bush or to influence the Iraq war. Although I agree, the timing suggests the dems are sending a message. But couldn’t their motives be to let the Turk’s know it would not be a good idea to invade Kurdistan and kill a bunch of innocent Kurd’s along with the PKK. Such things have happened in the past, during Turkey’s cross border police actions against “terrorists”
Pb
Why did Congress need to pass this resolution? Surely it would just piss off Russia? Was 65 years too soon?
On the other hand, if the President ostensibly doesn’t want to piss off Turkey, then I guess it wasn’t really genocide back in World War I when Turkey was responsible for deliberately causing roughly as many Armenian deaths as the United States is likely now responsible for Iraqi deaths.
On the other hand, Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator who somehow just couldn’t manage to kill that many people or sow that much chaos. Maybe it’s safe to condemn him again?
John Cole
Granted, I was in High School and starting college, and more interested in bongs and coeds and lacrosse than I was world politics, but I seem to have completely forgotten our ill-conceived and protracted war in Botswana, in which we were fighting an insurgency, an offshoot terrorist group, and trying to keep the peace in a civil war between multiple warring factions, all while requiring that we not piss off South Africa because it was our main supply route.
Incertus (Brian)
What’s pointless is that Turkey has its drawers in a twist over this. It’s past time that they came to grips with what their grandparents did. Every country has crap in its past that it’s ashamed of–we certainly do. Germany’s so serious about it that it’s against the law to deny it happened (a law I have problems with, but that’s another discussion). So why can’t Turkey just grow the hell up on this issue?
sparky
What jennibee said.
I find it hard to believe that this Congress has somehow gotten “smart” enough to force some kind of backdoor troop reduction. Plus it hands wingnuts an opportunity to stop analyzing the counters in the Frosts’ kitchen and get back to the real work: calling Ds traitors. So yeah, I think it’s unintentional stupidity at work.
And as to John’s point re the default position: it is different if you go on record as condemning an act than otherwise. It’s not the same as a treaty, but if all the countries in the world condemned an act that would have some force. How much, in specific circumstances? Hard to say. But it would have some. This is a step in that direction. But it does seem a rather badly timed one, if nothing else.
capelza
demi…not disagreeing about the Turks. I just see a one-sided pile on on Turkey, not just in regards to the Armenians, but also to the Greeks. The Greeks always leave the the “Megali Idea” and the MUTUAL ethnic cleansing that happened after they invaded Turkey (with the backing of the “ever helpful” Brits.
TOC a quick wiki search fro a specific incident i was thinking of..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers_Party
Rick Taylor
One thing I find depressing is that on the rare occasion the Democrats manage to pass anything, it typically turns out to be some wrong headed meaningless resolution I wish they hadn’t. In particular, Biden’s resolution pushing soft partition for Iraq was in that category. That is the direction Iraq is heading in, but we still have no standing to be dictating solutions to them.
And by the way, congratulations on riling up most of your readership. Things were getting far too cozy here. :)
Pb
Last I checked, genocide against brown people isn’t genocide for many wingnuts; this is backed up by the fact that this same show played out in 2000, when Hastert withdrew the resolution–another little fact that doesn’t surprise me at all:
Let me know when Human Events reports that story, will ya? Sheesh.
srv
John, maybe you’re not thinking big picture.
Do we need Turkey more for MRAPs or do we need Turkey more for future actions against another country? If Turkey weren’t available for those other actions, would that tie the deciders hands in any way?
The Other Steve
There were South African troops in Namibia, so as to maintain supply lines to Angola, where the US and South Africa supported Unita rebels against Soviet/Cuba supplied MPLA forces.
So yes, the situation is somewhat comparable.
The Other Steve
I saw that. Transporting military units with civilians is a violation of the geneva convention. So did Turkey set this up for civilian casaulties so as to declare foul?
Jake
Shorter Cole: IOKIYJC
After months of hammering people for saying wild shit they can’t prove, John will only admit that his claim that Pelosi is attempting to ruin the war is “hard to prove.”
Poor John, if only those pesky Republicans hadn’t backed this bill he’d have a slam dunk cake walk to the flowers and candies and pony poop that spell out “Pelosi Did It.”
Don’t you think that just maybe the real story here is Turkey’s reaction?
Get a fucking grip man.
ThymeZone
Wow, John, you’ve become a concern troll on your own blog.
Not your style, man. You can do better than this.
Arguing about “interference” with foreign policy in these times is like arguing about what size duck pond you wanted in the middle of the dust bowl.
We have no foreign policy right now. And the war is the worst thing going on in the world, and in this country.
Pelosi’s move looks good to me. Bring it.
The Other Steve
capelza – not arguing that PKK isn’t violent. I just don’t understand the distinction between terrorist and revolutionary. We seem to blur the lines considerably.
Punchy
Hey, it’s just not genocide when the offending country has us blackmailed. Apparently.
Let’s call it “accidental murder” so our “ally” doesn’t stomp its feet and whine like a bitch.
John Cole
That is a strained comparison at best.
I approve of that policy! In fact, I like IROKIYJC even better.
It’s REALLY OK if you are John Cole!
capelza
Village guards equal “military units”?
Rick Taylor
Actually, I’m not sure this is a left-right issue, except that Bush is opposing the resolution that the Democrats are pushing. I haven’t seen much coverage of this at all at the lefty blogs I frequent, but the few mentions I have seen have been critical. I already mentioned the poster at Atrios.
Meanwhile, Firedog Lake makes almost the same argument you do, even wondering if this is Pelosi’s attempt to end the war.
The Other Steve
Anyway, i have to admit that my first thought was that they were pushing this to help sabotage some relationship with the war. But after doing research, and finding that this issue has been coming up for quite some time… it seems to be more of a case of getting it done because they now have a majority.
So I don’t have a problem with it, and as jenniebee noted, it’s bi-partisan.
I just don’t see any problem here. As others have noted, the Turks should be welcoming it, as this was an action carried out by their old enemies.
capelza
TOC…yes, what is one man’s freedom fighter vs another’s terrorist.
I think the PKK qualifies. Whose freedom are they fighting for exactly? What are their poltical aims? Do they still use child soldiers?
The Other Steve
So the US National Guard isn’t a military force?
LITBMueller
John, the problems with Turkey long pre-date the Armenian genocide resolution (check out Juan Cole’s assessment). Eric Edelman, now in the Pentagon and former US ambassador to Turkey, has more to do with anti-US sentiment in Turkey than Pelosi probably ever will. Here’s the best summary of Edelman’s tenure: “Considering the range of his activities, his statements which violate the decorum of democracy, and his interest in Turkey’s internal affairs, Eric Edelman acts more like a colonial governor than an ambassador.”
And guess who Rice sent to Turkey to calm them over the resolution? Her Assistant Sec. of State Dan Fried and…Eric Edelman!
And, neither would any of this end the war: the US has logistical hubs in Jordan, Kuwait, the port of Umm Qasr in Iraq, and elsewhere. So, Congress may be naive and fumbling (what else is new?), but this is definitely not some sort of grand leftwing conspiracy to end the war.
Punchy
I bet if we used child soliders, we’d have a TON of Republicans ready and willing to enlist.
The Other Steve
Even the Turks acknowledge this. They say they aren’t pissed off because of this resolution. It’s merely the final straw.
Wilfred
Ok. Hezbollah captures two Israeli soldiers. Terrorism or religious nationalist movement aimed at reconquering land they consider to be stolen? Israel responds by blowing up 75% of the infrastructure of the country and killing whomever they wish.
The American State Department has declared the PKK a terrorist organization. Its members kill, not capture, 15 Turkish soldiers. Turks can’t respond????
We blur the lines to serve our purposes. One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.
The Other Steve
Well, Mark Foley would join anyway.
capelza
Punchy…we could send Graeme Frost! Let him pay back all that S-CHIP money his granite-countered billionaire parents free loaded from Michelle Malkin!
The Other Steve
Has anybody ever said Turks can’t respond?
The Stranger
Let’s see…Dems won’t call what is going on in Darfur geoncide.
They won’t call what happened in Cambodia genocide.
They won’t call what’s happening in North Korea genocide.
They won’t call what’s happening in Mozambique genocide.
They won’t call what happened in the Congo genocide.
They won’t call what happened in the Soviet Union in the 1930’s genocide.
…but they sure as hell will do it if it will alienate a key ally in the WOT and if it guarantees more US troop deaths.
Bastards!
whippoorwill
Pb says
If memory serves me didn’t Ashcroft later slap the STATE SECRET label on all of this.
ThymeZone
There is no “war on terror.” It’s an advertising slogan.
Describe such a war, define its size and shape, explain how such a thing is won. Use examples from history to illustrate that your assertions are something more than figments of your imagination.
The Other Steve
Ahh, leave it to The Stranger to come along and discredit Republicans.
Jake
I Rock?
Man, this belongs in the “Things that make you say geek” post.
Wilfred
But earlier:
So you think the US should fight the Turks if they enter Iraq to fight the PKK?
magisterludi
From what i gather this resolution has been coming up for 20 years or so. Tom Lantos has been pushing it. Hard to argue with a Holocaust survivor about the need to acknowledge genocide. The timing sucks, but so does everything else this hornet’s nest.
Anyway, as soon as we set foot in Baghdad the die was cast as far as the Kurds were concerned. We provided the opening they needed to begin a vigorous and ultra-determined fight for their own independent nation, something Turkey just as vigorously sees as a disaster.
The PKK operate with the tacit support of many Kurds, as they desire the same end- a sovereign Kurdistan.
whippoorwill
Stranger as usual you are full of wingnut crapola.
Dems on Cambodia Genocide
I’m not going to waste my time on the rest of your allegations of dems not recognizing genocide when it occurs in the world.
May be, you could supply some evidence for you rantings.
LITBMueller
Yeah, that ties in to Sibel Edmonds, the most silenced woman ever.
Rick Taylor
And another left of he aisle blog comes out against the resolution, this time at Tapped
By the way, I still don’t believe this some attempt by Pelosi to sabotage the war. It would be horribly self destructive for the Democrats if it were to actually succeed in doing that, as you point out. It’s inconceivably to me that they’d be coerced into supporting the war unconditionally just by being threatened with the mantra you’re abandoning the troops if they don’t, only to risk the fallout that would come in really sabotaging the effort. I suspect it’s more politics; there’s been a strong lobbying effort by groups supporting Armenians. And I suspect Pelosi thinks this is the right thing to do; genocide is worthy of condemnation after all (and as I said before, in a vacuum I’d support it). And since the purpose of the congress now appears toe to make resolutions condemning various groups, well, genocide is worthy a subject as a Moveon ad.
demimondian
Seeing as how I was a grad student in my early twenties when this was going down, the only reason my interests were different were that I was engaged. Well, that and I shared my apartment with two Africa scholars — not-yet-F not-yet-D not-yet-D D and I lived in different states — and so I listened to a bunch of the propaganda.
I heard things like “This is going to weaken our national defense because it will deny us access to critical metals like chromium.” “The ANC is terrorist group, backed by the Communists, and backing the end of the bantustans will strengthen to Soviet’s hands in the horn of Africa”, and the like.
So, yes, there was a generational struggle, and, yes, the threatened consequences were grim. Interesting how they didn’t come true.
Rick Taylor
Democrat Tim Lantos who supports the bill and is a holocaust survivor said:
While I appreciate the sentiment, this really bothers me. The United States has lost it’s moral authority; that’s part of why this is a bad idea to pass this bill at this time. The way you go about regaining moral authority isn’t by passing resolutions against others.
Although if the Senate were to pass a resolution that the United States had attacked another sovereign nation with a causus belli that turned out to be completely false, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands and the displacement of millions, and condemned the action, now maybe that might regain some moral authority!
And there’s an article here.
It’s funny, usually it’s President Bush that sees things in black and white terms, stays determinedly oblivious to realities, and makes monumental blunders as a result.
John S.
I agree that the timing on this resolution stinks, but I think we are heading for a rocky road with Turkey no matter what.
Does anybody else here think that Turkey isn’t going to start fucking with the Kurds in northern Iraq (I think there already have been a few incursions) once we pull out?
The fact is, Turkey has a fairly non-glorious modern history. Not only have they been incredible bastards to the Armenians, but to the Greeks and Kurds and many other ethnic groups. The few Turks that I know personally are fiercely proud of their heritage (a lot of which is wrapped up in Ottoman pride inasmuch as Iranians feel about their Persian ancestry), but in doing so, they tend to forget – or flat out ignore – some of the more negative portions of their history. But is now really a good time to rub their faces in it? Probably not.
As the region becomes increasingly more unstable, Turkey is going to step up and flex their muscle as much as possible. They are the only country that truly stands with a foot in both the Western and Middle Eastern worlds, and it is a delicate balancing act. Sticking our finger in their eye won’t really accomplish much at this point. And at the end of the day, who the fuck are WE to be lecturing other nations on THEIR shortcomings? Bush gave up the right for us to wear THAT mantle years ago.
MNPundit
I only wish they’d push Japan to acknowledge their own actions in WW2. Germany owned up far more to what it did.
Rick Taylor
You know, at this point I would love to end these resolutions congress makes taking various stands that don’t actually do anything? No more condemning a NY times ad that insults a general, no more going after a right wing radio blowhard, no more oracular pronouncements on how the Iraqi’s should organize their country (allowing moderate Republicans desperate to find a chance to break with the President on anything on Iraq a chance to do so at no cost), no more freebie declarations praising apple pie and motherhood. If individual senators and congressmen have opinions, they are free to give them, but if the congress isn’t about to pass a law that actually does something, as a body they should just shut up.
capelza
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/10/15/125748/60
How many resolutions do we need?
Zifnab
Um… does this resolution have ANY teeth in it? Will it increase trade barriers? Disqualify the country from foreign aid or traffic? Open them up to lawsuits in the international courts? Anything?
If you ask me, this sounds like a Turkish problem of getting their panties in a knot rather than an American problem of bad timing. Does this mean we shouldn’t talk about WWII if Germany offers us aid in Iraq? What about Spanish Troops? Do they demand we stop recognizing the inquisition?
If there are actual ramifications to this bill – either directly or indirectly – I can see this being a blunder on Pelosi’s part, although a relatively minor one. However, even if it is, its at least a blunder in the right direction. It’s almost like she’s inviting Turkey to pass an equally condemning bill against the American Government for crimes committed in Iraq.
I would absolutely love to see the US get into a moral-highground-off with the international community. We’d lose in no time, and it would once again revive all the torture scandals and abuses of power that have been committed by this government for the last six years. It’s something this country would do well to revisit, especially in a run up to an election year.
Pb
Every year, China puts out their Human Rights Record of the United States; always interesting to get another perspective…
The Stranger
Dems don’t call what happened in China in the 20th century (50 million killed) genocide.
Dems don’t call what happened in Rwanda genocide (1 milliom dead) genocide.
Dems don’t call what happened in Iraq (1 million killed by Saddam) genocide
…but as long as it guarantees dead American soldiers, they will recognize what happened in Armenia.
Face
Instead of resolutions against Turkey, I say we baste it, stuff it with stuffing, and cook it for 4 hours at 200F.
Mmmmmmmmm. Turkey. I’m Hungary!
Jake
No.
SASQ Vol. XVIII
Yup. We’re fighting a war against terror and dictators and mass murder all that mean nasty stuff but we’re not allowed to mention anyone who engaged in any of that mean nasty stuff no matter how long ago it took place because some infantile SOBs might take their toys and go home and no one seems to think this is the least bit odd.
Shit, it wasn’t that long ago this Admin. compared Democrats, libruls and other anti-war types to Nazi appeasers.
Horrible! Un-American!
Now some of those people have dared to say the Turks shouldn’t have killed all of those Armenians and that’s it and it’s back to pearl clutching because those dang Nazi appeasers (and Republican traitor types) are … er … speaking out against behaviour assoicated with Nazis.
Horrible! Un-American!
Arseholes.
Tsulagi
Once upon a time in some shining city on a hill, some guy said…
Damn you, Ronald Reagan! Alienating Turkey a key ally in the Cold War which would guarantee US troop deaths if the shit happens. You want America to fail.
Let’s see, a few years back the French Assembly considered a similar resolution. Turkey promised retaliation if it passed and recalled their ambassador. Said the resolution was fighting words. France passed the resolution. Chirac signed it. Turkey and France do more business today than when the resolution passed.
Lesson of the day: French balls loom large for The Strangers in the Party of
ReaganBush.Snark aside, on balance, I wouldn’t push this resolution. Reagan issued a presidential proclamation broadly condemning all instances of genocide, which has been our default position. Capelza’s post above gives more instances of our condemning the Armenian genocide. The point has been made. Nothing wrong with multitasking, but I think some other tasks are more pressing right now than this.
A1
Stranger,
Republicans won’t call what happened in Iraq(1 million dead) genocide.
(to say nothing of 2 million internal refugees, 2 million external refugees)
A1
whoops:
Stranger,
Republicans won’t call what happened in Iraq(1 million dead as a result of the invasion) genocide.
The Other Steve
Personally I’d rather have Congress pass bills like this then to pass bills that spend money or cause me undue suffering and constipation.
craigie
It’s not pointless to my grandparents. They were there.
edgewise
Two points.
First, why have I heard no one anywhere on the political spectrum question the assumption that publically identifying and condemning instances of genocide somehow magically makes it less likely that future genocides will occur. There is no evidence or rational basis for this assertion.
Second, support for the resolution is fundamentally hypocritical. If the resolution passes, Turkey is more likely to cross the border into Northern Iraq, and less likely to provide logistical support for the operations of american troops. I do not wish to imply that Turkey won’t bear responsibility for the outcomes of its own rash choices, but since its choices and their consequences aren’t difficult to predict, making a rhetorical stand against the senseless loss of life will result in an increased risk for the senseless loss of life. Sanctimony is a form of blindness.
LITBMueller
There is NO connection between this resolution and whether Turkey will invade northern Iraq in order to attack the PKK. They are going to do this with or without any resolution by the US Cong. about the Armenians. What’s happening in northern Iraq is due to our either (a) unwillingness or (b) inability to stop the PKK. Either the Administration does not have the political will or they just don’t have enough troops to open up a new “front” in the War on Terra.
Probably the latter, but the result is the same: the Turks are increasingly feeling that they must take matters into their own hands. And they’ll do so using the myriad of weapon systems we’ve sold them over many years.
Nice, huh?
jenniebee
Oh, yeah, definitely John, it’s unnecessary and asinine, but that doesn’t mean it’s a conspiracy. This is the sort of resolution that gets these sponsors every year because there are a couple of people who care passionately about it and everybody else – well, shoot – are you on the side of calling the well documented slaughter of the Armenians not genocide? You get my drift. And every time it comes up, the speaker just lets it die a natural death rather than upset the Turks and that’s the way it usually works. Pelosi apparently doesn’t particularly care if the Turks get upset, so this is the way it’s working now. Let it be a lesson to all future Hasterts to bite the bullet and let this sort of non-binding emotional twaddle go through. Sure, Hastert’s tenure wasn’t the best time for it – but it pretty demonstrably wasn’t the worst time, either.
Zuzu
Go to Thomas and run a search on the term “Armenian genocide” over the last 20-30 years or so. Congresspeople have been introducing resolutions on this topic for a long time. In fact, Bob Dole introduced one around 1980.
As long as it was a Republican house committee members knew they could vote yea and make their constituents happy without it ever being voted out of the house. And it was usually sponsored by a Republican.
In 2000 Dennis Hastert promised he would bring the one that passed committee to the floor for a vote, but withdrew it at the last minute at Clinton’s request. Something similar happened in 2005.
Neo
This is all part of General Sanchez’s nightmare of incompetent strategic leadership that includes Capitol Hill.
Pelosi continues the saga of America is living A nightmare with no end in sight. Funny how the AP made it sound different last week.
sashal
You guys are making a bif deal out of it.
I agree that this resolution is pointless , but I think it’s also shameful for Turkey to try to push us around, threatening a long-term strategic relationship because of a non-binding resolution. There’s something very thuggish and ugly about their refusal to own up to what happened, and to force the US to go along with that is indeed not a way a friend should act.
Of course this resolution was introduced and pushed by a few congresspeople with big Armenian districts, but it was also admirable — a word rarely used to refer to members of Congress — that many of them who stood to gain nothing politically said they had to stand up for what they saw as the truth.
I, personally, think the Turks are bluffing, but I suspect we’ll never find out because the US will throw in some sort of bone to Turkey to allow Ankara to save face when this resolution passes.
Bruce Moomaw
Strategically it’s a horrible bill — just as calling Stalin what he really was in the middle of WW II would have been strategically disastrous. But, as Mark Kleiman points out, it’s a horrible bill not because it’s a lie — it’s perfectly truthful — but because (1) Turkey is strategically crucial to our continued involvement in the Moddle East, and (2) Turkey’s domestic politics is STILL homicidally insane. (As Kleiman says, “Can we at least now hear no more about the ‘moral clarity’ of the imperialist/warmonger faction?”
Don
I’ve got no feeling one way or the other on if this is Iraq-related maneuvering – could be either way. However congress produces a ton of these pointless resolutions every session, so they’re not really unusual in any way.
Rick Taylor
Speaking of strategic leadership on Capitol Hill, has anyone heard what stand the Democratic presidential hopefuls are taking on this? This is important enough, this decision might affect my vote in the primaries.
John S.
You should see what the Japanese have been up to, then.
The Chinese (among others, including Koreans and Okinawans) are furious over their official scrubbing and whitewashing of Japanese atrocities during WWII. Yet somehow, the fact that the Japanese don’t want to own up to their past any more than the Turks do hasn’t seemed to register much on the radar here.
I wonder why that is?
Rick Taylor
Ok, Hillary is a co-sponsor. I wasn’t planning on voting for her, but that seals it. The main thing she has going for her is her experience, and if that isn’t enough to prevent her from pissing off a war time ally given the current circumstances, then that’s not a deciding factor for me. Edwards seems to support it. As usual, Obama is being cagey.
The Other Steve
Ok, forget all this…
Important observations about Michelle Malkin :-)
The Other Steve
They’re next.
The Other Steve
It’s settled then.
Time to invade Turkey.
Zifnab
Hey Stranger’s got a good point.
When was the last time the Democrats condemned Hitler? Or protested the violent militias in Central America? Or sufficiently castigated Castro? Or denounced the crimes committed by the Shah of Iran? Or voted on a resolution to chastise
MoveOn.OrgRush Limbaugh’s remarks against our Military? Or opposed the violation of the sovereign territory of the Cherokee Indians by Andrew Jackson in direct violation of an order handed down by the Supreme Court?!Frankly, the Democratic Congress disgusts me with its flip-flopping and panty wadding over what is and is not genocide, these days. I’m just glad a Democrat isn’t President, or who knows what sort of mess we’d be in today. We certainly wouldn’t be winning in Iraq with the Nancy Pelosi “resolution against some genociders” attitude. We’d probably be playing spin the bottle with Al Qaeda and footsy with Osama Bin Laden while we tra-la-la about the maypole of aethism and socialized medicine. Baby Jesus weeps at the thought.
dingo
The Stranger Says:
On Sen. Kennedy’s website:
Well, The Stranger, you just don’t get to make up shit and call it fact. Or is Ted Kennedy not a real Democrat?
John S.
Stay tuned for next week’s episode:
Manifest Destiny – Part Ni
or
All Your Islands Belong to Us
Dennis-SGMM
The USA, the EU, and a number of nations have identified the PKK as a terrorist organization. What happened to Bush’s threats against those who harbor terrorists?
By the administration’s own reasoning, Turkey is justified in doing whatever it takes to deal with the terrorist threat represented by the PKK. The fine old phrase, “hoist by your own petard” comes to mind.
As for the genocide resolution; resolutions are meaningless, feel-good items. The previous genocide resolutions did nothing to prevent the mass killings in Cambodia, Bosnia and Rwanda. Those same resolutions are now doing yeoman work in Darfur.
So, all of you contemplating genocide: watch out or we’ll vote a resolution.
chopper
yeah, to me this whole thing exposes the soft underbelly of the pseudo-moral basis of american foreign policy. i understand realpolitik, but i’ll be damned if i can figure out how goopers can talk about how saddam was a genocidal maniac, but it isn’t a good idea to recognize the genocide his next door neighbor committed.
all in all, i will agree with one thing. the timing of this bill does suck, even if its been put forth before. but that’s only because turkey really has us by the balls here.
i hate it when other countries have us by the balls. why are other countries always grasping our balls?
Pooh
Haven’t read the thread, but I’m ambivalent about this. On the one hand, calling it a genocide is probably right and correct and whatever. On the other hand, what, exactly, does it get for us? Especially given the cost WRT Turkey (though why the fuck they care about some mealy mouthed ‘resolution’ is another issue…)
But suggesting that this is some sort of triple bank shot to get us out of Iraq leads me to ask two things.
A) What is this guy smoking?
B) Why was a guy with a mind this devious not put in charge over Doug “stupidest fucking guy on the planet” Feith?
whippoorwill
Turkey wants desperately to get in the EU, so I’m not so sure their blustery rhetoric is anything more than that. Maybe it’s time we grabbed them by the balls ’till they let go of ours.
The Stranger
Well, The Stranger, you just don’t get to make up shit and call it fact. Or is Ted Kennedy not a real Democrat?
It was the official policy of Billy Jeff Clintoon, and Teddy, the fat drunken, melon-headed, moronic murderer Kennedy, the rest of the criminally negligent Democrats, and Kofi Annan not to call the slaughter of 1 million Rwandans genocide because they would be forced to intervene according to UN by-law.
You’re an idiot.
whippoorwill
stranger
What you say is as usual, garbage. Again, cite some actual evidence that isn’t wingnut blog manufactured.
The entire massacre of the Tutsi by the Hutu lasted only about 3 weeks. Yes we could have made an effort with a MUE or some other force, but even that would likely have been too late. If you want to blame a western country your best bet are the Belgium’s who had a big role in creating the hatred between Hutu and Tutsi tribes. They also could have stopped it but didn’t.
Ted
You know, by that standard, Laura Bush is a “murderer” too. And as for “drunken,” well, one need only look as far as her husband.
Ted
And let’s face it, Republicans, the shitfaced ‘The Stranger’ included, could not give ONE shit about brown people dying. In Rwanda, NoLa, or anywhere else.
‘The Stranger’ is merely using it as a political club against ‘Clintoon’, et al. He/She/It surely didn’t care about it then, and it certainly doesn’t actually care about it now.
chopper
well, i can imagine that turkey also wants to get us the hell out of their country. at least i would if i were turkey. shit, look at all the wonderfulness we brought them recently. with friends like us…
The Stranger
What you say is as usual, garbage. Again, cite some actual evidence that isn’t wingnut blog manufactured.
The entire massacre of the Tutsi by the Hutu lasted only about 3 weeks.First were the lies told by both US President Bill Clinton and UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan in later apologizing for their inaction during the 100 days. Both claimed that they were insufficiently aware of the situation at the time. These claims, on the part of both men, have been repudiated beyond a shadow of a doubt. They knew everything,
The Stranger
Actually, it lasted 100 days. But, hey, what’s just one more lie by a liberal? It’s what they do.
Read this little excerpt from the findings of a U Penn African Studies Center study http://www.africa.upenn.edu/afrfocus/afrfocus011606.html;
The got their info about Billy Jeff Clintoon from FOIA filings.
However, two other lessons of the international reaction, distressing as they were at the time, seemed to offer a certain hope for intervention in future crises. First were the lies told by both US President Bill Clinton and UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan in later apologizing for their inaction during the 100 days. Both claimed that they were insufficiently aware of the situation at the time. These claims, on the part of both men, have been repudiated beyond a shadow of a doubt. They knew everything,
jake
Because the US is like a Evangelical preacher. It enjoys the firm hands of strangers on it nads, provided they’re discrete.
If Turkey starts boasting that it has US by the scrotum, G. Bush, version 2.Suck would take a sudden interest in vigorously defending [cough*preemptive strike*cough] the Kurds against Turkish invaders.
Ted
Whatever. You didn’t care then, and you don’t care now. The issue is nothing more than a political club for you. Scoot on over to Malkin’s place. That site is more up your alley.
I’ll repeat, Republicans DO NOT CARE about dying black people. Indeed, many Republicans welcome it. And they certainly didn’t care about dying Albanians. Hell, they tore Clinton apart for intervening in THAT situation. And they expect anyone to believe now that they would have liked to have seen a Rwandan intervention, caring about black people for the first time in the last 100 years.
Luckily our own African-descended population sees through this bullshit, and votes accordingly.
The Stranger
Gosh, here’s more about Billy Jeff Clintoon allowing 1 million to be slaughtered.
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20000501faresponse51/alison-l-des-forges-alan-j-kuperman/shame-rationalizing-western-apathy-on-rwanda.html
When is Pelosi going to propose a resolution about this?
What? It won’t help kill American soldiers so she won’t?
whippoorwill
Stranger
Yes Clinton did apologized for his supposed inaction, but the people with guns already in country, mostly Belgium, turned tell and ran.
And if you want to get in a pissing contest of “who could of stopped genocides and didn’t” how bout the one happening right now in Darfur. Your Great leader Bush is the “Commander Guy” and he’s done nothing but talk, talk, talk.
But wait, there’s no oil in Darfur.
And at least Clinton later took action to stop the Serb genocide in the Balkin’s.
Ted
Yes, Nancy Pelosi wants to kill American soldiers.
Wow, you’re a nutcase. Move along now, they’re waiting for you in Freeperville.
The Stranger
Billy Jeff Clintoon killed 4 times as many innocent Serbian civilians in his bombing raids than the Serbs did of the ethnic Albanians in Kososvo.
Billy Jeff Clintoon lied…tens of thousands died.
Ted
Folks, how are you going to address the “arguments” of a nutcase? Don’t bother. “Stranger” can make its way on to more favorable domains. You know, GodHatesFags.com, RaptureReady, or something like that.
The Stranger
Actually, it was proven that Billy Jeff Clintoon lied about not knowing what was going on, so he could shove his apology up his ass…along with the cigar.
Actually, it was Belgian and Canadian troops under the auspices of the UN that had to stand down because Billy Jeff Clintoon and Kofi Annan lied to the world about waht was going on.
The Stranger
Shorter Ted: Damn, I hate it when people use actual facts. in arguments.
jake
I’m conducting a survey regarding use of the Link function. Please select only one of the following answers.
I don’t use the Link function because:
A. I didn’t know there was a link function.
B. I know there is a link function but I can’t figure it out.
C. I’m a jackass.
D. I’m a stupid jackass.
whippoorwill
Ted says
I think your right Ted, it has reached that point of absurdity with this guy. Clinton was an Arkansas drug kingpin who had 60 people whacked. We’ve heard it all before Stranger. Bye now.
grumpy realist
Meh. I’m even more cynical than John. It’s a feel-good resolution that produces absolutely nothing except to piss off Turkey right now and we’re doing it as a way to show how “moral” we are rather than dealing with Guatanemo and FISA and oursourcing our torture to allies like Egypt and Syria.
Let’s deal with our own immorality first, ok? Bring back habeas corpus, get rid of the stupid PATRIOT act, apologize to Iraq for mucking up their country in such a big way and throw our doors open to Iraqi refugees. THEN we can wag our finger at Turkey.
Rick Taylor
I use the link function when I can, but occasionally it doesn’t work; everything after the embedded link becoms cut off. I The preview shows when there’s a problem, so that’s when I use a raw link.
grumpy realist wrote:
Hear hear.
The Stranger
Shorter Whippoorwill: Gee Ted, I too, am confounded when someone uses facts and documentation. When that happens, I get huffy and say even more absurd things. Darn it!
borehole
Figures. I agree with Cole, then he says he was wrong.
Pelosi’s got local reasons to bring it up for a vote year after year, but yeah, they would’ve played this wayyyy down if it weren’t One More Way to Avoid Defunding and Therefore Not Supporting the Troops Right Before a Crucial Election.
I demand Mr. Cole retract his retraction.
Ted
If you actually think Nancy Pelosi wishes for the deaths of American soldiers, you’re a bona fide nutcase. You make Malkin/Maglalang look sane.
Run along now; I doubt there is anyone here left who wants to waste their time arguing with a mental patient.
whippoorwill
No, stranger, my momma always taught me to never leave the house without clean underwear and never argue to long with liars. You come under the second lesson.
cynn
I agree with grumpy realist. I also agree with some of the Stranger’s points. “Genocide” is like a cheap suit anymore, given the atrocities we don’t acknowledge. This is a ploy, and a stupid one.
The Stranger
I disagree. I think that anyone that does not believe that Pelosi hates the military and wishes our soldiers dead is the nutcase.
Jim
Just another reason to develop energy alternatives so that we don’t need oil, and therefore can leave the hell hole that is the Middle East to its own insanity.
With that said, since the resolution won’t save a single life anywhere, including the 1.5 million dead Armenians, and could hurt the US’s interests, Congress is nutty to consider it at this time.
cynn
Stranger: I’m fairly new here; I don’t know your routine. But shooting yourself through the roof seems slightly excessive.
Bruce Moomaw
Odd, Stranger; I don’t recall any cries whatsoever from the GOP at the time to intervene in Rwanda. Indeed, the number of dead cats that the GOP was throwing at Clinton at the time for supposedly staying in Somalia too long was one of the major political reasons that he declined to get involved in Rwanda. (When a Democrat’s in the White House, after all, isolationism suddenly becomes vastly more popular among Republicans.)
As for Nancy Pelosi, I too find it rather difficult to believe that she wishes for dead US soldiers. The fact that she wants to actually get us the hell out of Iraq may possibly account for my difficulties in this regard. (Now, feeding aborted fetuses to cannibalistic San Francisco gays — THAT’S another matter. I have no doubt whatsoever that she does that.)
Aaron
Integrity is doing whats right. Integrity is tested when doing whats right comes at a cost you dont want to pay.
Given John Cole’s Republican roots its not surprising that he is not familiar with this concept.
Cain
Please.. I’m fairly liberal, and I don’t see the point of the resolution at this time. The time to do it was probably around when Clinton took office.
We still need the Turks at this point and morever they are a stable democracy and we don’t want the wingnuts over there to have any power than they already. All they need now is to point to the U.S. and say they were right. We’re already having a public relations fiasco thanks to The Decider.
cain
srv
Ten years ago, our F-16s took off from Incirlik to patrol the No-Fly Zone. The Turkish Air Force pilots took off and dropped bombs on the Kurds under the No-Fly Zone.
Why does the Stranger hate the Kurds?
It’s time to choose between Turkeys sensitivities and Kurdistan. Either we dance around the Turks for the next few decades and hope they don’t slaughter the Kurds at some point, or we make it clear to them their ambitions with the EU/West come with some humble pie.
We know the John Coles of the Right will never find an opportune moment to b*tchslap the Turks and make Kurdistan safe for Hunt Oil Co.
sglover
It should be clear by now that Pelosi has neither the cunning nor the guts for the strategy that Cole suggests. I’d be slightly astonished if Nan was even aware of Turkey’s logistical role. This is laughable on its face.
Now I think I’m seeing how Cole could have voted for Bush the Lesser twice.
And by the way, isn’t “Human Events” one of the most deranged of the neo-con rags? Aren’t they the outfit that includes the seriously emotionally ill David Horowitz among their “talent”?
sglover
Ummmm…. Maybe the kind of ally that 1) saw Bush’s “case” for war as the laughable sham that it always was, and 2) happens to be right next-door to the purported “liberation”?
Your argument is ludicrous. Suppose, say, Spain decided to send a punitive expedition to Mexico, or France to Quebec, in order to “aid” their oppressed linguistic comrades. Is the U.S. obligated to provide an invasion corridor for them? What kind of “ally” would the U.S. be, if it enabled such insanity and idiocy?
Iraq wouldn’t be any less of a strategic disaster if Turkey had decided to become stupid and play along. The biggest tragedy of the Iraq war has always been its fundamental stupidity. And don’t forget that in refusing, the Turks gave up pretty hefty (multi-billion dollar) inducements.
TenguPhule
I weep for the gene pool that obviously needs a good chlorination to get the pond scum out of it.
All of those dead stuffed soldiers The Stranger insisted on deploying as Human Shields around the party of Bush are a pathetic sight.
The Stranger
Looks like Ted has reduced himself to attempting ethnic slurs in his incoherent babbling.
Slowly back away from the keyboard, buddy.
sglover
James Fallows, who could never write for “Human Events” because he is not certifiably insane, is also nonplussed by Congress’ feel-good gesture.