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You are here: Home / Politics / Mukasey Testifies, Right Wing Yawns

Mukasey Testifies, Right Wing Yawns

by John Cole|  October 17, 20075:38 pm| 73 Comments

This post is in: Politics, Republican Stupidity, Assholes

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Michael Mukasey, in his testimony today, compared torture to the Holocaust:

The Bybee memo is “worse than a sin, it’s a mistake,” Mukasey said. He referenced the photographs taken by U.S. troops who liberated the Nazi concentration camps in 1945 to document the “barbarism” the U.S. opposed. “They didn’t do that so we could duplicate what we oppose.” Beyond legal restrictions barring torture clearly, torture is “antithetical to what this country stands for.”

I am glad that Steve Benen and Andrew Sullivan both remembered the collective FREAK OUT when Dick Durbin said the following:

If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime — Pol Pot or others — that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.

So let’s take a trip down memory lane and see the response to Sen. Durbin’s rather benign (and accurate remarks).

Ace of Spades:

Hey, DICK, Here’s What Death Camps Look Like

Fucking asshole.

NOT SAFE FOR WORK. Contains pictures of real death camps, probably of the type that Dick Durbin would engage in a little apologia over, as they’re not American and one was even conducted by “peasant reformers” just interested in redistributing a little land.

Hot Video of DICK: Watch this filthy little twat make his accusations.

Red State:

Okay, I’ve read Durbin’s non-apology, and it’s nowhere near enough. In the first place, the Distinguished Senator does not apologize for what he said, but only apologized if others misunderstood what he said. This, essentially, says that given the chance, Durbin would say it again, if only the rest of us were smart enough to understand what he truly meant.

Censure remains the only appropriate response to Durbin’s nonsense. As we have been shown on a number of instances, the Muslim world is watching us very closely, and there are people who are looking for any excuse to throw gasoline on the fire of anti-U.S. sentiment abroad. If clerics can use a story about flushing a Koran down a toilet to spark riots that kill 15, how many people can be signed up to Al-Qaeda when a disingenuous cleric waves this silly quote of Durbin’s in front of their face and says, “One of their own Senators, a very important one, even, compared their administration to the Nazis and the Stalinists, and he refuses to take it back. How can you doubt that our cause is just?”

Durbin’s inflammatory remarks have hurt the image of this country and our armed forces abroad and at home.

Assrocket:

I called Senator Dick Durbin’s office this morning at (202) 224-2152 and, after being on hold for a while, laid out the reasons why I think Durbin should resign from the Senate. His staffer told me that as of this morning, he is standing by his statement comparing American soldiers to the Nazis, the Communists and the Khmer Rouge. There was one caveat, however: the staffer told me that Durbin never actually said “American soldiers,” and that there are also contract interrogators at Guantanamo Bay. I asked whether Durbin was trying to claim that everything bad about Gitmo was the fault of civilians, and the army has nothing to do with it. She backtracked quickly and denied that this was Durbin’s theory–it would, of course, be an absurd claim since the military runs Guantanamo Bay and sets the policies there. Her evasion shows, though, how deeply dishonest Durbin’s position is.


Bill Kristol:

Conservatives (and, one trusts, many liberals) have been appalled by Sen. Durbin’s comparison last Tuesday, on the Senate floor, between “what Americans had done to prisoners in their control” at Guantanamo and what was done by Nazis, Soviets, and Pol Pot. Conservatives (and, one trusts, many liberals) have also been appalled by Sen. Durbin’s non-apology last Friday: “I have learned from my statement that historical parallels can be misused and misunderstood.” In other words, Sen. Durbin apparently still believes there could be a proper use and understanding of an “historical parallel” between American soldiers and Nazis.

Hugh:

DURBIN’S REMARKS should not be allowed to be edited away with an apology. The American electorate does not believe the conditions at Guantanamo are “torture.” They do not agree that the criminal conduct of Abu Ghraib is illustrative of the American military. They do not worry that we are being overly inclusive about the population at Gitmo. They do not believe that any part of what America been about since September 11 is in any way connected with the Nazis, the Stalinists, or Pol Pot.

They are disgusted over this slander of the military, and they deserve a vote on whether Senator Durbin’s argument deserves anything except complete and quick condemnation by responsible members of both parties intent on supporting the war, the military, and the country’s defense.

Dick Durbin hasn’t been misunderstood, as his Friday web statement claims. He isn’t the victim of a right-wing media, as his Friday interview argues. Dick Durbin has been perfectly understood. All of his words have been read and listened to, in their original context and in his original delivery.

Durbin stands with the Michael Moore left, the Howard Dean attack-America-first caucus, and the international chorus that assigns the responsibility for the jihadists to American overreach in the world.

And those are just a few. I haven’t the desire to check out the swirling vortex of stupid that will be Michelle Malkin’s archives.

A few quick things:

1.) In light of the recent blogstorm over Graeme Frost, it is instructive to go back and look at the reaction to Durbin. This behavior the past week from the right regarding Frost is nothing new. It is their tried and true methodology.

2.) How will they respond to Bush’s nominee saying what is roughly the same damned thing as Dick Durbin? Will they demand his nomination be shot down? Will they slander him, call him a twat and a dumbass and tell him to go fuck himself? Will they break out the epsom salts and begin the necessary gymnastics to pretend this statement by Mukasey is somehow substantively different? Or will they ignore it completely, just like they completely ignored the murder of Win Shwe, who was tortured to death in Myanmar last week (and we couldn’t really say anything, because we have no credibility on the subject of torture anymore)?

3.) The Durbin affair, on the heels of Schiavo and Abu Ghraib and the excuses for torture and the other lies was the beginning of the real break for me with the current swine who dominate the current GOP. In fact, this post on Durbin was one of my last at Red State (if not the last, although I think there might have been one or two more). I am glad I got out of that cult.

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Reader Interactions

73Comments

  1. 1.

    Gold Star for Robot Boy

    October 17, 2007 at 5:55 pm

    You’re beautiful when you’re angry, John.

  2. 2.

    Incertus (Brian)

    October 17, 2007 at 6:01 pm

    You bet your ass they’ll ignore it, just like all good wingnuts do when one of their own slips off the script. Being a wingnut means your side never ever ever fucks up, and when they do, it’s because they were right all along and are still morally superior to the fucking Democrats.

    I’m in the sort of mood right now, after grading crappy essays all day, where if I had access to stupid people and a baseball bat, I might make the nightly news.

  3. 3.

    Mike S

    October 17, 2007 at 6:10 pm

    Beyond legal restrictions barring torture clearly, torture is “antithetical to what this country stands for.”

    There was a time that that statement would have been unnecessary. It would have been a given.

    Now it’s actually being debated,

  4. 4.

    jcricket

    October 17, 2007 at 6:14 pm

    Don’t forget Mukasey also invoked foreigners, and specifically the French to buttress his opinion:

    Mukasey insisted that the memo, “to paraphrase a French diplomat, was worse than a sin, it was a mistake. It was unnecessary.”

    And to be clear, Mukasey also disavowed subsequent memos that re-authorized torture by redfining it:

    On Wednesday, Mukasey blasted all the official documents, whose legality is in question.

    Cue wingnut freak-out in 3…2…1… ? No? Silence?

  5. 5.

    Zifnab

    October 17, 2007 at 6:15 pm

    I called Senator Dick Durbin’s office this morning at (202) 224-2152 and, after being on hold for a while, laid out the reasons why I think Durbin should resign from the Senate. His staffer told me that as of this morning, he is standing by his statement comparing American soldiers to the Nazis, the Communists and the Khmer Rouge. There was one caveat, however: the staffer told me that Durbin never actually said “American soldiers,” and that there are also contract interrogators at Guantanamo Bay. I asked whether Durbin was trying to claim that everything bad about Gitmo was the fault of civilians, and the army has nothing to do with it. She backtracked quickly and denied that this was Durbin’s theory—it would, of course, be an absurd claim since the military runs Guantanamo Bay and sets the policies there. !!!– Her evasion shows, though, how deeply dishonest Durbin’s position is. –!!!

    So… torture is committed at Abu Garab prison, and Assrocket tries to force Durbin to pin it on the troops? I forgot how absurd this entire firestorm of outrage was.

    And it’s a demonstration of how the wingers treat torture. It doesn’t matter. Limbaugh’s Club Gitmo T-shirts and the “Would you Jack Bauer a man to death if there was a ticking time bomb?” hypotheticals and pants pissing contests over how Clinton failed to snipe OBL all demonstrate how the right wing treats inhumane treatment. Who cares? Doesn’t matter. Don’t give a flip.

    So of course Mukasey’s speech will pass right by their glazed over eyes, while they search for his positions on gay marriage and abortions and immigration. I doubt they’ll even blink, except to silently assure themselves that this is exactly what John Roberts or Robert Gates would have said in a similar situation.

  6. 6.

    Cain

    October 17, 2007 at 6:49 pm

    Zifnab,

    The right are too busy getting their collective panties in a knot over a toddler daring to support SCHIP. Besides, we’re wasting our time here. While we’re busy looking at that old reality they’ve created a new one where it’s okay to associate the troops with torture. Back then it wasn’t the case, the new reality is that troops are torturing everyone and it’s BAD.

    And wtf kind of name is “Assrocket”. Is this some kind of self-deprecating humor? Is the rocket going in or out? My money is that it’s going both ways. They probably collide inside the ass and the splatter is actually his blog entry.

    While we’re at it, let’s look at Ace of Spades:

    Hey, DICK, Here’s What Death Camps Look Like

    Fucking asshole.

    NOT SAFE FOR WORK. Contains pictures of real death camps, probably of the type that Dick Durbin would engage in a little apologia over, as they’re not American and one was even conducted by “peasant reformers” just interested in redistributing a little land.

    Hot Video of DICK: Watch this filthy little twat make his accusations.

    Shit, the man needs to lay off the porn. Not safe for work? Ya think? Fucking, DICK, twat, asshole, death camp.. He’s probably turning himself on as well as the circle jerk he’s part of.

    cain

  7. 7.

    grumpy realist

    October 17, 2007 at 6:50 pm

    The comment “C’est pire qu’un crime, c’est une faute” has been attributed to either Fouche or Boulay de la Meurthe and was in relation to Napoleon’s execution of the Duc d’Enghien. (Mukasey obviously attributes it to Talleyrand, who is the other person often mentioned in connection to this quote.) I had thought it Talleyrand as well, but Wikipedia attributes it to one of the others. From what I know of Fouche’s character, it definitely sounds like something he could have said.

  8. 8.

    Cols714

    October 17, 2007 at 6:53 pm

    Wow John I didn’t read Red State or any other political blogs back then and didn’t know you used to post there. I’m glad you got out. The comments on your post were absolutely off the wall. It was like they never read what you had to say and were just going along with whatever Rush Limbaugh told them.

  9. 9.

    Cols714

    October 17, 2007 at 7:00 pm

    Is there any way to get more of your old writing from Red State?

  10. 10.

    Davis X. Machina

    October 17, 2007 at 7:17 pm

    Being a wingnut means your side never ever ever fucks up, and when they do, it’s because they were right all along and are still morally superior to the fucking Democrats.

    Team sports is the only model you need to understand, to understand modern American politics.

    The dead Vince Lombardi – ‘Winning isn’t every thing, it’s the only thing’ – has done from beyond the grave what the living Jeff Davis, Hitler, or Stalin could not do, namely destroy the Republic.

    Throw away your Federalist Papers, get a big foam “We’re #1 ” finger, and enjoy the ride. The end should be a doozy.

  11. 11.

    Wilfred

    October 17, 2007 at 7:19 pm

    I am glad I got out of that cult.

    Same here. Great post, one for the historical record.

  12. 12.

    Tsulagi

    October 17, 2007 at 7:24 pm

    Or will they ignore it completely

    Rhetorical question, right?

    BTW, you probably know this, but if you were taking a stroll on foot in Baghdad, some there might call you a TWAT. Tanker Without A Tank.
    ;)

  13. 13.

    The Other Steve

    October 17, 2007 at 7:27 pm

    Off subject… but given that TED thing on Thomas Barnett… apparently the Navy is listening.

  14. 14.

    The Other Steve

    October 17, 2007 at 7:29 pm

    Shh, don’t tell the wingnuts. They think Torture is a family value.

  15. 15.

    D-Chance.

    October 17, 2007 at 7:31 pm

    From that RedState column from way back when…

    When Bush won the election in 2000, a popular refrain in the base was “Thank God the adults are in charge.” Is it really asking too much that we behave like adults?

    From what we’ve all seen and read… yes, it is.

  16. 16.

    jake

    October 17, 2007 at 7:33 pm

    How will they respond to Bush’s nominee saying what is roughly the same damned thing as Dick Durbin? Will they demand his nomination be shot down? Will they slander him, call him a twat and a dumbass and tell him to go fuck himself? Will they break out the epsom salts and begin the necessary gymnastics to pretend this statement by Mukasey is somehow substantively different? Or will they ignore it completely…?

    [Crickets chirp]
    No.
    No.
    No.
    Yes.

    SA2SQ vols. XIV – XIX

  17. 17.

    Slide

    October 17, 2007 at 7:44 pm

    Cole, you’re on fire. I guess I’ll have to read your blog more often now that you are seemingly completely free of all of your vestigial GOP love.

  18. 18.

    TR

    October 17, 2007 at 7:57 pm

    You’re not seriously expecting anything but rank hypocrisy from these morons, are you?

    Their philosophy is as simple as they are:

    It’s. OK. If. You’re. A. Republican.

    If George W. Bush got caught getting a blowjob from Monica Lewinsky, they’d praise him showing outreach to the Jewish community and the 20-something voter.

  19. 19.

    chopper

    October 17, 2007 at 7:59 pm

    that’s the rad thing about the internet. you can find what people said months ago.

    like malkin and her own personal problems with insurance…

  20. 20.

    Rick Taylor

    October 17, 2007 at 8:05 pm

    How will they respond to Bush’s nominee saying what is roughly the same damned thing as Dick Durbin? Will they demand his nomination be shot down? Will they slander him, call him a twat and a dumbass and tell him to go fuck himself? Will they break out the epsom salts and begin the necessary gymnastics to pretend this statement by Mukasey is somehow substantively different?

    I’d guess they’ll ignore it. Find some way to distinguish this statement from Durbin’s so it’s not at all the same. Since two people never say exactly the same thing under the same circumstances, that’s always possible.

    But what strikes me is the right wing isn’t really happy with this nomination are they? Unless I’ve got it wrong, my understanding was the right wing line was Mukasey wasn’t nearly tough enough, and Bush was caving into the Democrats on this nomination.

  21. 21.

    Redhand

    October 17, 2007 at 8:16 pm

    Let’s hope Mukasey means what he says, and has the power to enforce his word, so that we won’t see any more pro-torture domination of DoJ by Dick Cheney and his über-slimy chief of staff/counsel David Addington. I watched the PBS Frontline program “Cheney’s Law” last night and while it plowed no new ground, it still made my blood boil.

    I don’t care how “brilliant” and “influential” they say this bastard is, Addington’s theory of “inherent executive power” is just window-dressing for a fascist-like power grab by a rogue executive branch. Germany got Hitler’s “Enabling Act” after the Reichstag Fire; after 9/11 we get David Addington’s theory of “inherent executive power” in signing statements and secret internal memos used to as a tool to ignore anti-torture legislation just passed by Congress.

    As an attorney, if I say in a legal memo that the law of murder doesn’t apply to incarcerated “enemy combatants,” that doesn’t mean it’s OK to torture them to death, so long as it wasn’t “intentional.” Yet that’s exactly the kind of crap Addington’s been peddling for years now, and easily selling to our numbnuts President. No wonder Bush is an arrogant POS. Cheney and Addington tell him his powers are limitless.

    There comes a point where legal sophistry crosses the border into outright criminal conduct, and I think Addington and Cheney are so far over the line they should be prosecuted by the next Administration, assuming of course that Bush doesn’t give them blanket pardons as he walks out the White House. If there’s no “crime” on the books under which they can be prosecuted (other than impeachable offenses, and we know that won’t happen) at the very least the new Administration must expose all these horrors, and work with Congress to put new tools in place that will help prevent this from happening again.

    The illegal sh*t we’ve seen the Bush Administration pull makes Bubba’s quid-pro-quo pardon of a slimeball like Marc Rich seem downright innocent. I absolutely can’t wait for these f*ckers to be out of office.

  22. 22.

    Jen Clark

    October 17, 2007 at 8:17 pm

    I would hope that the Democrats or Republicans or anyone would shoot this guy down because of his belief that the Military Commissions Act and Detainee Treatment Act are “legal and valid”, when they actually amazingly unconstitutional.

    But they won’t. I can tell you know this, but I’m so annoyed.

  23. 23.

    chopper

    October 17, 2007 at 8:22 pm

    I’d guess they’ll ignore it. Find some way to distinguish this statement from Durbin’s so it’s not at all the same.

    it’s true, durbin used the word ‘the’ an odd number of times, which makes it totally different.

  24. 24.

    John Spragge

    October 17, 2007 at 8:25 pm

    The statement that torture violates ethical standards does not require “credibility”, because speaking a self-evident truth does not require credibility. If Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot got together and pointed out that the United States ought not to “render” innocent people to jurisdictions that will torture them, then those three utterly wicked men would simply have uttered a self-evident truth– and their complete failure to live up to it makes it no less true.

    So, as a practical matter, George Bush should denounce torture in Burma. And if challenged for hypocrisy, he should tell people that pointing out his and his administration’s sins will not relieve the suffering of Burmese victims, and better the junta in Burma take a break from torture, murder and unjust imprisonment for the relatively harmless pastime of denouncing the current United States government.

  25. 25.

    Peter Johnson

    October 17, 2007 at 8:33 pm

    So you quote a few reactions to Durbin and make believe that Muakasey said the same thing Durbin said, which is patently false. Irregardless of what anyone said about Durbin at the time, I don’t see how you can attack what Mukasey is saying here. I have always opposed torture. Nearly all reasonable people have. The question is obviously where you draw the line.

    You equate Mukasey with Durbin by taking a few words out of context. Better questions would be: what does Mukasey think of the ticking bomb scenario? Does Mukasey believe that psychological techniques should be off the able as Durbin does? Does Mukasey think extreme hot and cold, sleep deprivation, and other techniques explicitly allowed by Geneva conventions are Nazi-like the way Durbin did?

    The more closely you look, the more your whole analogy falls apart.

  26. 26.

    John Cole

    October 17, 2007 at 8:34 pm

    So you quote a few reactions to Durbin and make believe that Muakasey said the same thing Durbin said, which is patently false. Irregardless of what anyone said about Durbin at the time, I don’t see how you can attack what Mukasey is saying here. I have always opposed torture. Nearly all reasonable people have. The question is obviously where you draw the line.

    Enough DougJ. Spoofing is allowed, but not the use of ‘irregardless.’

  27. 27.

    leefranke

    October 17, 2007 at 8:40 pm

    Quit insulting DougJ. DougJ is much better at spoofing than PJ.

  28. 28.

    jcricket

    October 17, 2007 at 8:43 pm

    it’s true, durbin used the word ‘the’ an odd number of times, which makes it totally different.

    Durbin’s also uttered those words a year or more ago. The facts on the ground are totally different now. Torture’s less necessary now that we’ve already rounded up all the terrrrrerists and/or killed them in Iraq.

  29. 29.

    jcricket

    October 17, 2007 at 8:44 pm

    Quit insulting DougJ. DougJ is much better at spoofing than PJ.

    DougJ is our our Steph(v)en Colbert.

    PJ is basically scs reincarnated, but a little meaner.

    What ever happened to scs, btw? I missed that person’s disappearing act. Darrell too.

  30. 30.

    chopper

    October 17, 2007 at 8:51 pm

    Durbin’s also uttered those words a year or more ago. The facts on the ground are totally different now.

    so the surge worked!

  31. 31.

    jcricket

    October 17, 2007 at 9:11 pm

    so the surge worked!

    Sounds more like a question – what are you, a Defeatocrat? Of course the surge worked. Dear leader said it did, and dear leader’s acolytes made sure the “facts” supported it.

  32. 32.

    Jay C

    October 17, 2007 at 9:21 pm

    I agree – John, that RedState post was truly awesome. I don’t know which contortions of the RS commentariat were more amusing to follow: their willful misinterpretations of what Sen. Durbin said; their willful misinterpretations of what you wrote, or their cocksure sneerings about how Durbin’s remark were “sure” to “spell doom for the Democrats” in the upcoming [2006] elections. Now, that worked out just swell, didn’t it?

    “Cult”, indeed – you’re much better off here.

  33. 33.

    Libby Spencer

    October 17, 2007 at 9:36 pm

    I didn’t read you much back then so I didn’t realize Durbin was when you turned the corner. Loved that RedState piece. It was so Mr Smith Goes to Washington.

  34. 34.

    jake

    October 17, 2007 at 9:38 pm

    If George W. Bush got caught getting a blowjob from Monica Lewinsky, they’d praise him showing outreach to the Jewish community and the 20-something voter.

    It’s funny because it’s true. I think.

    But first the person who caught the Pres. would be subjected to intense scrutiny. At the least sign of librulpinkocommiehomofascism (he wears blue ties, blue is the color of DimocRATS, and the kerning is off!) they would return to their regularly scheduled program of BushWorship.

  35. 35.

    KCinDC

    October 17, 2007 at 10:01 pm

    The Republican hypocrisy is of course even more blatant than usual. But before anyone starts to think to well of Mukasey’s testimony, read Katherine at Obsidan Wings.

  36. 36.

    tekel

    October 17, 2007 at 10:08 pm

    So this means that if Mukasey is confirmed, he will be charging Jay Bybee and Abu Gonzales with conspiracy to commit war crimes?

  37. 37.

    incontrolados

    October 17, 2007 at 10:20 pm

    I’m in the sort of mood right now, after grading crappy essays all day, where if I had access to stupid people and a baseball bat, I might make the nightly news.

    Haven’t read through all the comments, but I certainly relate to this (finals time for me — don’t ask, my school is on a whole nother schedule)– also, I’ve been reading a real U.S. History of torture, not that bogus crap the Capitan threw up when was it? Last weekend?

    It’s far worse that it appears. Strap every one of the keyboard types to a brainwave monitor in a small cell with muffs on their hands and feet. They’d be seeing the cookie monster and more before 12 hours pass.

  38. 38.

    incontrolados

    October 17, 2007 at 10:30 pm

    If George W. Bush got caught getting a blowjob from Monica Lewinsky, they’d praise him showing outreach to the Jewish community and the 20-something voter.

    According to the kids on Kid Nation, George W. Bush isn’t so smart, but he got elected twice.

    That’s the lesson that kids have taken from the last few years. What’s worse? Oral is not sex or stupid can be pres?

  39. 39.

    r€nato

    October 17, 2007 at 10:32 pm

    The Bybee memo is “worse than a sin, it’s a mistake,” Mukasey said. He referenced the photographs taken by U.S. troops who liberated the Nazi concentration camps in 1945 to document the “barbarism” the U.S. opposed. “They didn’t do that so we could duplicate what we oppose.” Beyond legal restrictions barring torture clearly, torture is “antithetical to what this country stands for.”

    So… torture was committed. Someone(s) in the US government authorized it, either explicitly or implicitly. Therefore, someone(s) in the government is subject to prosecution as a war criminal. My money’s on Cheney/Rumsfeld, with Bush (as usual) going along with whatever was decided for him.

    I won’t hold my breath for the media or anyone else in a position to do something about it, to follow this through to its logical conclusion.

  40. 40.

    r€nato

    October 17, 2007 at 10:33 pm

    Oral is not sex

    I think they got that one from the abstinence-only jihad.

  41. 41.

    Gus

    October 17, 2007 at 10:40 pm

    Have they always been so quick to ban people? I go there so rarely since it sends my blood pressure skyrocketing, but man, anything less that total agreement with the hive mind gets you banned pronto. It’s not like there isn’t a hive mind on most lefty blogs, but disagreement doesn’t get you banned as a rule, and if the troll is civil, there is even respectful engagement.

  42. 42.

    incontrolados

    October 17, 2007 at 10:53 pm

    Sorry, renato, but that’s what the wingnuts have been throwing up against the wall for years.

    While you are correct — you’re not.

    Get it?

  43. 43.

    incontrolados

    October 17, 2007 at 11:00 pm

    Have they always been so quick to ban people?

    Are you kidding me? Gus, try here.

    If you are not approved, you’ll never get in.

    Oh and, she supposedly will be posting on NewsBusters . . . .

  44. 44.

    Kyle

    October 18, 2007 at 12:29 am

    John, if you get down here, I’ve got to ask this. Are there any Republicans you still respect? Any GOP politician who you think is helping the country and not hurting it? Any conservative journalist/pundit who you think makes sense when he sits down to write?

    And do you think the liberal temperament or philosophy has any basic flaws that doom liberals to fail at keeping popular support or governing for the country’s good?

  45. 45.

    Boronx

    October 18, 2007 at 12:40 am

    And now Durbin looks like a dork for caving.

  46. 46.

    Jasonc

    October 18, 2007 at 12:47 am

    I’m glad you got out, too, John. Sleeping easier at night, I assume.

  47. 47.

    rachel

    October 18, 2007 at 1:08 am

    Boronx Says:

    And now Durbin looks like a dork for caving.

    He looked like a dork back then, too.

  48. 48.

    TenguPhule

    October 18, 2007 at 2:56 am

    The question is obviously where you draw the line.

    Somewhere well before crushing the testicles of a terror suspect’s child to get them to confess.

    Our people flipped Nazis like pancakes by playing chess with them and treating them like human beings.

    I know chess is a little too advanced for the modern Republican, but how about trying a nice game of tic tac toe instead?

    You might even learn something about the futility of trying to win at all costs.

  49. 49.

    TenguPhule

    October 18, 2007 at 2:58 am

    If George W. Bush got caught getting a blowjob from Monica Lewinsky, they’d praise him showing outreach to the Jewish community and the 20-something voter. accuse her of being a dirty lying Democratic whore operative entrapping an innocent bibleloving father and family man

    Corrected.

  50. 50.

    Helena Montana

    October 18, 2007 at 3:26 am

    Completely off the subject, but—This morning’s WaPo:
    “Senate Democrats and Republicans reached agreement with the Bush administration yesterday on the terms of new legislation to control the federal government’s domestic surveillance program, which includes a highly controversial grant of legal immunity to telecommunications companies that have assisted the program, according to congressional sources.

    Disclosure of the deal followed a decision by House Democratic leaders to pull a competing version of the measure from the floor because they lacked the votes to prevail over Republican opponents and GOP parliamentary maneuvers.

    The collapse marked the first time since Democrats took control of the chamber that a major bill was withdrawn from consideration before a scheduled vote. It was a victory for President Bush, whose aides lobbied heavily against the Democrats’ bill, and an embarrassment for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), who had pushed for the measure’s passage.

    The draft Senate bill has the support of the intelligence committee’s chairman, John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), and Bush’s director of national intelligence, Mike McConnell. It will include full immunity for those companies that can demonstrate to a court that they acted pursuant to a legal directive in helping the government with surveillance in the United States.

    Such a demonstration, which the bill says could be made in secret, would wipe out a series of pending lawsuits alleging violations of privacy rights by telecommunications companies that provided telephone records, summaries of e-mail traffic and other information to the government after Sept. 11, 2001, without receiving court warrants. Bush had repeatedly threatened to veto any legislation that lacked this provision.”

    Nancy Pelosi’s e-mail address is: [email protected]

    Since she is our majority leader, I know that she will be happy to hear from each and every one of us on this issue.

  51. 51.

    merlallen

    October 18, 2007 at 6:02 am

    They are that quick to ban you. I was banned twice because I didn’t totally 100% agree with the assholes.
    I wasn’t being rude or snarky. I simply, politely disagreed.
    And these same fuckwits are always going on about the “Left” hating free speech. I hate those fucking chickenhawk cowards.

  52. 52.

    sparky

    October 18, 2007 at 7:49 am

    Helena:
    Too late. Sen Ds apparently caved as well yesterday.

    Rule of law only means something if we actually abide by it. Apparently we don’t.

    This is all old hat by now, but I am continually surprised by how quickly a little fear and politics can collapse a quasi-functioning democracy. It was a nice dream, all that civics and law stuff, wasn’t it?

    I guess we don’t need to worry about China–we’ll just become them on our own, thank you.

  53. 53.

    Lee

    October 18, 2007 at 8:00 am

    I’m not why that telecom amnesty really pisses me off.

    Is it too much to let the courts actually work this out?

  54. 54.

    John Cole

    October 18, 2007 at 8:09 am

    They are that quick to ban you. I was banned twice because I didn’t totally 100% agree with the assholes.
    I wasn’t being rude or snarky. I simply, politely disagreed.
    And these same fuckwits are always going on about the “Left” hating free speech. I hate those fucking chickenhawk cowards.

    I honestly don’t know why anyone reads them anymore, as they have been rather straightforward that it is not really a site for conservatism or for idea, but for electing Republicans. I guess I do because I am a glutton for punishment. At any rate, what you will get there is not conservatism, but Republicanism, and it takes very little to be perceived as one of the enemies.

    It is kinda sad watching it change- Moe Lane in particular has really gone off the deep end when it comes to banning.

    If I had to guess, though, I would bet it will turned more Christianist in the future, as two of the remaining “big” guys there are Ben Domenech and Leon Wolf, and both are committed social cons and driven to madness over abortion, etc. When the Republicans get drubbed in 2008, expect those two to blame it all on the GOP failing to be sufficiently servile to the social con wing.

  55. 55.

    Krista

    October 18, 2007 at 8:11 am

    In fact, this post on Durbin was one of my last at Red State (if not the last, although I think there might have been one or two more). I am glad I got out of that cult

    I have to laugh, reading that post. The argument that followed, where you were saying that Durbin comparing the behaviour of the American soldiers to that of Nazis, was not the same as calling the American soldiers Nazis….well, the whole discussion that followed was just so reminiscent of the “Jane Hamshers of the Left” thread.

    For a communications prof, you certainly do manage to get yourself in hot water over the fine distinctions between what you mean and what people hear. ;)

  56. 56.

    LITBMueller

    October 18, 2007 at 8:20 am

    Let’s hope Mukasey means what he says, and has the power to enforce his word,

    Mukasey is irrelevant in Cheney World. Remember, when Ashcroft wouldn’t do exactly what they wanted, they simply went around him – either by going directly to a Loyal Bushie in the OLC (Yoo) or by simply doing Whatever The Fuck They Want.

    And, if anybody becomes too much of a problem, or doesn’t toe the line hard enough, they’ll just be “resigned” to “spend more time with the family.” Most recent example: Scott Redd, head of the National Counterterrorism Center, who must have made Cheney burst a blood vessel when he said in an interview with NBC that Iraq had not made us “tactically” safer, and is a “giant recruiting tool” for AQ.

  57. 57.

    farmgirl

    October 18, 2007 at 8:22 am

    If George W. Bush got caught getting a blowjob from Monica Lewinsky

    I personally would be astonished, because I’m pretty sure he plays for the other team. Michael Lewinsky, more likely.

  58. 58.

    John Cole

    October 18, 2007 at 8:24 am

    For a communications prof, you certainly do manage to get yourself in hot water over the fine distinctions between what you mean and what people hear. ;)

    I thought I was crystal clear in both cases, and in both cases it was more a matter of people hearing what they wanted to hear rather than a lack of clarity on my part.

    There isn’t anything I can do about that.

  59. 59.

    r€nato

    October 18, 2007 at 8:47 am

    For a communications prof, you certainly do manage to get yourself in hot water over the fine distinctions between what you mean and what people hear.

    It’s really not that hard to understand.

    It’s the difference between saying to somebody, ‘you’re acting like an idiot’, and, ‘you are an idiot’.

    Of course, subtle but important distinctions and shades of meaning are usually lost on the simple-minded.

  60. 60.

    r€nato

    October 18, 2007 at 8:48 am

    …and the willfully ignorant.

  61. 61.

    r€nato

    October 18, 2007 at 8:50 am

    When the Republicans get drubbed in 2008, expect those two to blame it all on the GOP failing to be sufficiently servile to the social con wing.

    I really, really, really hope the GOP listens to the Domenechs of the party and bends further to the social con right after the coming 2008 debacle.

  62. 62.

    Cyrus

    October 18, 2007 at 9:05 am

    2.) How will they respond to Bush’s nominee saying what is roughly the same damned thing as Dick Durbin? Will they demand his nomination be shot down? … Or will they ignore it completely, just like they completely ignored the murder of Win Shwe, who was tortured to death in Myanmar last week (and we couldn’t really say anything, because we have no credibility on the subject of torture anymore)?

    I dunno, I think Rick Taylor is probably right.

    But what strikes me is the right wing isn’t really happy with this nomination are they? Unless I’ve got it wrong, my understanding was the right wing line was Mukasey wasn’t nearly tough enough, and Bush was caving into the Democrats on this nomination.

    Even as the base marches in lockstep against Democrats, non-Christians and gays, they have been willing to criticize Bush now and then. His immigration policy, being insufficiently brutal in the war, being too conciliatory towards the left… Bush isn’t quite as idolized as the left tends to think, but I don’t know if that’s a good sign or bad. Their golden calf seems to be some imaginary combination of Bush’s personality, Cheney’s policy and Reagan’s résumé.

  63. 63.

    Dr. Squid

    October 18, 2007 at 9:07 am

    Actually, if they bother, I half-expect them to say…

    “That John Cole, he’s a liberal now. Don’t bother with him.”

  64. 64.

    jcricket

    October 18, 2007 at 9:55 am

    The question is obviously where you draw the line.

    Is this really the question? Only in Cheney world.

    As all the vets from WWII point out, if the goal is to get truthful information from prisoners, torture is not effective. Being nice to people, in some cases, overly nice, actually gets you far more valuable and reliable information in the end than any kind of physical or hurtful mental coercion. Israel does this all the time with their prisoners (the be-friending/giving them all sorts of nicities) with pretty good results.

    Not to mention that any kind of mistreatment violates a number of international conventions we have co-signed and lowers America’s standing.

    Why even bother getting into a debate about whether attempting to freeze/heat/isolate/waterboard someone is/not torture? Treat them like we treated captured POWs in WWII (for the most part) and there’s just no question. Why get into potentially damaging situations?

    This isn’t 24. This isn’t Law & Order where you grab a “perp” by the collar and he gives up his co-conspirators. This is real life. And torture/rendition have a “long tail” of negative consequences for America. Not the least of which is the reduced willingness of foreign governments to help us in police-related actions designed to monitor and/or capture terrorists.

  65. 65.

    r€nato

    October 18, 2007 at 10:03 am

    As all the vets from WWII point out, if the goal is to get truthful information from prisoners, torture is not effective. Being nice to people, in some cases, overly nice, actually gets you far more valuable and reliable information in the end than any kind of physical or hurtful mental coercion.

    if torture worked in extracting truthful confessions, the police would use it.

    But, they don’t. Not even with serial killers.

  66. 66.

    jcricket

    October 18, 2007 at 10:09 am

    “That John Cole, he’s a liberal now. Don’t bother with him.”

    I picture RedState as the fat dad in a wife-beater with a cigarette in hand yelling at John Cole (his Democratic punk/goth/gay son) “YOU’RE DEAD TO ME NOW! YOU HEAR ME! DEAD! GET OUT OF MY HOUSE! I DON’T EVER WANT TO SEE YOU AGAIN” as John walks out with a backpack.

    I’m not sure who the mom crying in the background is. Maybe Joe Gandelman or Andrew Sullivan?

  67. 67.

    Sav

    October 18, 2007 at 9:55 pm

    Wow, “Assrocket”.

    The transformation is complete. How unfortunate.

  68. 68.

    Chris Johnson

    October 19, 2007 at 4:25 pm

    Yeah. Wire guys to a lie detector, not a light socket. And instead of making them stand in the corner for 12 hours, sit them in a comfortable chair with comfortable lighting, film them, wire them to a lie detector, and patiently ask them about what you want to know, for 12 days- not counting constant breaks for bathroom use, lunch etc. Film and bug the bathroom in case they mutter anything.

    How is this so hard to understand?

Comments are closed.

Trackbacks

  1. Since You Put It Like That . . . § Unqualified Offerings says:
    October 17, 2007 at 7:35 pm

    […] Mr. John Cole takes us down memory lane, where I found maybe the aweomest RedState comment ever: An apology does nothing in the outside world to defuse this nonsense[of Dick Durbin accurately comparing images from contemporary American interrogation practices to those of the worst regimes in history]. But a censure, an offical rebuke by his peers, essentially puts the Islamists on notice that Durbin’s remarks are not the view of the Senate and his collegues. […]

  2. Suburban Guerrilla » Blog Archive » Silly Rabbit says:
    October 18, 2007 at 10:49 am

    […] It’s always okay when it’s a Republican! […]

  3. Smart Remarks » Blog Archive » Dick Durbin for Attorney General says:
    October 18, 2007 at 11:16 am

    […] So now that the Republican candidate for Attorney General did exactly the same thing, can we assume our friends on the right are silent only because they’re busy knotting the rope? Share and Enjoy: These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages. […]

  4. Balloon Juice says:
    October 18, 2007 at 3:18 pm

    […] It has been well over 24 hours, and I am still waiting for the collective freak-out from the frothing right about Mukasey’s traitorous proclamations yesterday. […]

  5. Balloon Juice says:
    July 2, 2008 at 6:10 am

    […] You remember the collective FREAKOUT from the right wing when that happened, right? If not, head here and read. At any rate, Durbin was wrong, it turns out. That behavior was not like the Nazi’s, or Svoiets with their gulags, or Pol Pot- it was actually the Communist Chinese we were emulating: […]

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