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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Dissing China to Bomb Iran

Dissing China to Bomb Iran

by John Cole|  October 18, 20073:53 pm| 117 Comments

This post is in: Foreign Affairs

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Ed Henry on Anderson Cooper 360 last night:

GEORGE W. BUSH, U.S. PRESIDENT: I told people that if you’re interested in avoiding World War III, it seems like you ought to be interested in preventing them from having the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon. I take the threat of Iran with a nuclear weapon very seriously.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HENRY: Now, the president insists he still hopes to solve this crisis with Iran diplomatically. But if you will remember, that’s what he said before launching a war in Iraq. And so that’s also why his words carry so much meaning tonight, Anderson.

COOPER: Well, Ed, also the diplomatic fronts got a whole lot more confusing. Russia’s president, Vladimir Putin, has been meeting with the Iranian president. Putin, he seems to be picking sides here.

HENRY: Absolutely. He’s taking swipes at the United States. Mr. Bush obviously thought Mr. Putin was an ally, but for various reasons he’s not looking like one these days. Especially because of this meeting over last few days with President Ahmadinejad. Putin looking like he’s cozying up to him. And Putin also directly contradicted Mr. Bush by saying he doesn’t believe Iran has nuclear ambitions and also basically warning that the U.S. should not launch any attack against Iran, Anderson.

COOPER: So much for the president looking into his eyes, I guess, and seeing his soul, as he once about Vladimir Putin.

HENRY: Yeah.

COOPER: Today in Washington the president was shown with the Dalai Lama. You say that also could come back to have implications for Iran’s nuclear ambitions. How so?

HENRY: Absolutely. I mean, Mr. Bush got plaudits today from even some Democrats on the Hill by standing up and being seen publicly with the Dalai Lama but obviously that makes China irate and China is key here. Because you can’t get any tough sanctions passed in the United Nations Security Council without China on board.

So if they are angry, that is not good. And if you don’t get tough sanctions, sanctions actually with some teeth, that takes a big weapon off the table and makes the possibility — I stress possibility — of war more likely, Anderson.

If Bush really is dead-set on attacking Iran with a military strike, this is precisely what they would want to do to pave the way. It effectively removes the UN from the equation, as he can agitate China to the point hat the UN option will not be available.

It is a win, win, win, win for Bush. Get credit from the mindless droids at home for meeting with the Dalai Lama, get credit with the wingnut right for pissing off China, neuter the possibility of UN sanctions slowing down the decider while also giving the wingnut right more ammunition in the never-ending crusade to further weaken international organizations (no doubt Oil for Food will re-emerge as a blogosphere chant).

A bellicose China torpedoing sanctions in the UN isn’t a bad thing to these guys- it is a feature. It would mean the only thing in between Bush and his desire to attack Iran, should he have one, is the Democrats. And I think we all know how that would end.

If you are familiar with the Bush policy of “Doing Whatever the Fuck We Want,” it makes perfect sense. These folks do a lot of things that have such disastrous outcomes that it is easy to just call them stupid, but they really aren’t. They are merely indifferent to the repercussions of their behavior.

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117Comments

  1. 1.

    Dug Jay

    October 18, 2007 at 3:59 pm

    Another scintillating and cracking-good analysis from our distinguished Host! We can only hope that he’s right.

  2. 2.

    jcricket

    October 18, 2007 at 4:04 pm

    We’re all gonna DIEEEEE!

  3. 3.

    Jen Clark

    October 18, 2007 at 4:10 pm

    It’s strange to call them stupid when they have accomplished more destruction of the Constitution for their own benefit with absolutely no repercussions for anyone involved than anyone other President could have dreamed of.

    But I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that “they are merely indifferent to the repercussions of their behavior.” They have priorities we don’t understand. Therefore, we can’t know if these repercussions aren’t exactly what they were aiming for.

  4. 4.

    whippoorwill

    October 18, 2007 at 4:14 pm

    These folks do a lot of things that have such disastrous outcomes that it is easy to just call them stupid, but they really aren’t. They are merely indifferent to the repercussions of their behavior.

    It’s the only thing there competent at–understanding how to wield power within the Amercian system of government. Of course wielding power should also require some meaningful objective be achieved. And there they have no idea what they’re doing.

    So it’s blow it up and hope for the best. If things don’t look good right now then it’s perfectly proper to believe things will sort themselves out in 30 or 40 years. Besides, they’ve always got the dems to blame.

  5. 5.

    Tsulagi

    October 18, 2007 at 4:16 pm

    Just what we’d need. Our deaf, dumb, and blind Commander Guy at the helm of another adventure.

  6. 6.

    Jon H

    October 18, 2007 at 4:23 pm

    Not to mention Bush probably got a hard-on at the idea of using a photo-op with a Nobel Peace Prize winner to grease the skids of war.

  7. 7.

    Jake

    October 18, 2007 at 4:23 pm

    Hmmm. You don’t think bombs falling on Iran would send tons of angry people fleeing into the bordering countries (ie the ones where we’ve got two wars going) do you? You don’t think the other nations in the region will get very agitated when they realize that not one, but two but three whole countries are occupied by ferriners do you? Surely they’ll remember we had a reason to go into Afghanistan and just sort of accidentally wound up in Iraq and they’ll know Iran deserved it for thinking of nukes. Surely no one will take it as a sign that any unwashed infidels are trying to take over the entire thing.

    They are merely indifferent to the repercussions of their behavior.

    You could save a lot of key strokes by typing “sociopathic.”

    Well, maybe Cheney’s masters in the Royal House of Saud will decide they really don’t want the noise and bother of another war in the neighborhood and put the kibosh on the Deciderator’s plottergizing.

  8. 8.

    Jon H

    October 18, 2007 at 4:25 pm

    “These folks do a lot of things that have such disastrous outcomes that it is easy to just call them stupid, but they really aren’t. ”

    Some of them are. Some of them aren’t.

  9. 9.

    Jon H

    October 18, 2007 at 4:28 pm

    “Well, maybe Cheney’s masters in the Royal House of Saud will decide they really don’t want the noise and bother of another war in the neighborhood and put the kibosh on the Deciderator’s plottergizing.”

    If anything, a war with Iran will be, in part, a war at the Saudi’s bidding: “You made this mess, George, now you *will* clean it up and put Iran in its place.” .

  10. 10.

    Jake

    October 18, 2007 at 4:30 pm

    OT: If you bet former PM Bhutto’s return to Pakistan would take place without incident…Sorry.

  11. 11.

    whippoorwill

    October 18, 2007 at 4:40 pm

    If Bush bombs Iran, we won’t be talking about Al Quaida maybe hitting us here in the US. We’ll be talking about the 5 terrorist attacks that happened last week in LA and NYC, from the dozens, if not hundreds, of Hezbollah sleeper cells that have been here way before Al Quaida existed.

  12. 12.

    Phoenician in a time of Romans

    October 18, 2007 at 4:47 pm

    And if you don’t get tough sanctions, sanctions actually with some teeth, that takes a big weapon off the table and makes the possibility—I stress possibility—of war more likely, Anderson.

    I love the way the idea of war is framed as, you know, a passive process. Just one of these things that happens, you know? Just an unfortunate series of events.

    Let’s stress that agin – “war” in this case means the President decided to launch an aggressive war against a country that is not an immediate threat and (indeed) has shown few signs of seeking to become an actual threat. Your President, your government and your country will be – what’s the word again – aggressors.

    Everybody knows this. So why is the media using the passive voice?

  13. 13.

    matt

    October 18, 2007 at 5:02 pm

    OT: John, are we ever going to get a review of No End In Sight?

  14. 14.

    Jon H

    October 18, 2007 at 5:26 pm

    “from the dozens, if not hundreds, of Hezbollah sleeper cells that have been here way before Al Quaida existed.”

    This is America. By now, they’re so fat nobody makes an explosive belt in their size. By now, they’re so fat they can’t suicide-bomb a bus because they’d have to be transported by themselves in one of those little handicapped vans. By now, they’re quite possibly gay.

  15. 15.

    Zifnab

    October 18, 2007 at 5:44 pm

    It’s strange to call them stupid when they have accomplished more destruction of the Constitution for their own benefit with absolutely no repercussions for anyone involved than anyone other President could have dreamed of.

    That’s like saying, “How stupid could he be? He just burned down a city block, no one could put out the fire, and the cops didn’t arrest him or nothin.”

    If a vandal spray paints your house and the police refuse to catch and arrest him, is it because the vandal is so incredibly smart or the policemen are so pathetically corrupt/lazy/foolish? If a bunch of thugs break into every jewelry store in town, one after the other, consistently, day after day, and no one bars their windows or hides their wares or camps out in their stores with shotguns, is it because the thugs are a pack of master criminals? Or is it because the shopkeepers clearly just don’t care about their merchandise?

    Republicans haven’t done anything particularly clever since the Clinton Impeachment. Bald-faced lies and bullying people in local elections aren’t “smart” or “clever”. No more than bombing the fuck out of Bagdad and chanting “Shock and Awe” is some sort of genius military strategy. People just swallow it because they’re dumber than the messenger.

  16. 16.

    whippoorwill

    October 18, 2007 at 6:01 pm

    This is America. By now, they’re so fat nobody makes an explosive belt in their size. By now, they’re so fat they can’t suicide-bomb a bus because they’d have to be transported by themselves in one of those little handicapped vans. By now, they’re quite possibly gay.

    Ahaa, Teh Fat Gay Jihadi.

    Suicide vest won’t fit, no problemo, one strategically deployed cork and lots of greasy fried goat. EL KABOOM!

  17. 17.

    Dennis-SGMM

    October 18, 2007 at 6:08 pm

    I have no doubt that a Bush war in Iran will be just as successful as his war in Iraq.

    On the other hand, because it’s the most insanely stupid thing he can do at the moment…

  18. 18.

    binzinerator

    October 18, 2007 at 6:14 pm

    if you’re interested in avoiding World War III, it seems like you ought to be interested in preventing them from having the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon.

    Amazing. Did you ever hear before of a President talking about World War III to the nation? Not as an off-mike joke but as if it were a decision we are faced with? And — my God — the bastard even put it in the context of a false dilemma.

    And NO ONE in the media said fucking boo about this?

    What kind of response is “diplomatic fronts got a whole lot more confusing”?

    We have a President willing to 1) recklessly talk about WWIII, 2) to scare and bully the shit out of people to get them to jump into another war 3) to lie about something of that magnitude by phrasing it as a bogus choice.

    This is the exact same thing he did with Iraq. The consequences of which he refuses to take any responsibility for.

    We have a rogue president. He wants war simply because he thinks he can. The depth of that his deceit and his willful recklessness stuns me. And his lack of concern for the consequences of his actions and his lack of empathy for the people who suffer those consequences frighten me.

    I agree with the commenter above. It’s called sociopathy.

    Harvard psychologist Martha Stout, Ph.D. once said in an interview that sociopaths are “people who have exhibited symptoms such as extreme chronic deceitfulness, lack of remorse, lack of personal responsibility, and a general desire to control people and make them jump…. ”

    “If you have a boss who likes to ridicule people and make them jump and seems to get a kick out if it, that’s more likely to be sociopathy. It’s motivation.”

    She noted, however, that deceit is a central behavior of sociopathy.

    She also noted that sociopaths don’t question their lack of empathy for others or their “dark side”. These are not concerns a sociopath would have. In other words, sociopaths feel just fine about themselves.

    If you’ve ever wondered how on God’s green earth Bush could do what he has done and remain convinced he’s right, lie over and over again, proclaim he’s a ‘man of faith’, say over and over again we don’t torture, I think the above provides a hint how he does it.

    George W. Bush. Sociopath on the warpath.

  19. 19.

    Wilfred

    October 18, 2007 at 6:15 pm

    Well, maybe Cheney’s masters in the Royal House of Saud will decide they really don’t want the noise and bother of another war in the neighborhood and put the kibosh on the Deciderator’s plottergizing.

    and:

    If anything, a war with Iran will be, in part, a war at the Saudi’s bidding

    Say what? Any murder of Iranians will be done at Israel’s bidding, not Saudi Arabia’s. Deflecting attention to Saudi reeks of Aipac megaphone crap – thanks for the heads-up.

  20. 20.

    Peter Johnson

    October 18, 2007 at 6:17 pm

    Oil for Food was truly a digrace:

    In the same way, there are still officials of the oil-stained U.N. Secretariat who profess to believe the repeated denials of Benon Sevan, the longtime right-hand man of Kofi Annan put in charge of what became history’s largest swindle.

    Of course, in a $20 billion ripoff, $125,000 to the boss’s son for doing nothing is chump change. But it should lead to questions for the son: what are his associations with families in the oil industry? (Yamani or ya life!) Did he lie to his father about four years of fees from Cotecna, or did Kofi fail to ask him? Did Kojo inform Sevan about the fees, or know about any lucrative oil vouchers given by Saddam to Sevan?

    For the father: Will he now share with Congress, which supplies 22 percent of the U.N. budget, his “thorough investigation” of his son’s Cotecna connection? Did he learn of the “nothing illegal” fees only last Tuesday, as his aides say? Has he since asked his Absalomic son if the secretary general can stand by his April “nothing to do with” statement about Cotecna?

    This marks the end of the beginning of the scandal. Its end will not begin until Kofi Annan, even if personally innocent, resigns – having, through initial ineptitude and final obstructionism, brought dishonor on the Secretariat of the United Nations.

    This scandal alone is reason enough to dismantle the UN once and for all.

  21. 21.

    The Populist

    October 18, 2007 at 6:23 pm

    Wow…you are a dupe for the right aren’t you?

    This President is talking about starting a war that will make this country the most hated around, sanctioned, broke and a lot less free yet you sit here stressing about the UN and the Oil for Food program.

    I used to be a bigtime Republican, not anymore and it’s sad this is your only comment regarding the President’s comments?

    Wow.

  22. 22.

    rawshark

    October 18, 2007 at 6:24 pm

    This scandal alone is reason enough to dismantle the UN once and for all.

    In the minds of simple folk maybe but not for anyone else.

  23. 23.

    The Populist

    October 18, 2007 at 6:27 pm

    Binz, not only that but have you ever seen a President giggling and smirking as he TALKED about a situation that could drag ALL of us down?

    Bush is truly certifiable. I’ve not been a big fan for impeachment but if this year’s election brings in more free thinkers, I would hope they won’t dawdle.

  24. 24.

    The Populist

    October 18, 2007 at 6:28 pm

    It’s time America say no to this wacked “conservative” agenda. THese people ARE NOT conservatives and they need to be told NO.

  25. 25.

    whippoorwill

    October 18, 2007 at 6:32 pm

    This scandal alone is reason enough to dismantle the UN once and for al

    Probably not, Johnson. But we are working hard around here to dismantle the ultra-corrupt republican party.

  26. 26.

    Peter Johnson

    October 18, 2007 at 6:33 pm

    Right…getting mad about someone stealing twenty billion makes a whack. And you guys whining about Halliburton overcharging for a few million makes you responsible citizens.

    Save me the tears about Blackwater while you’re at it. At least they do their jobs, unlike UN Peacekeepers.

  27. 27.

    magisterludi

    October 18, 2007 at 6:34 pm

    Since the Iraqis inked a deal with Iran and China on power plant construction in Sadr City and Basra, with Iran providing a lot of freebies, I don’t think the Shia in Iraq will look too kindly on us blasting away at their brethren.

    This might make the TPP (tiny penis party) pleased as punch to play schoolyard bully, but our troops will be sitting ducks for retribution and the blame will be on said party and their sadistic ringleaders.

  28. 28.

    The Populist

    October 18, 2007 at 6:35 pm

    Whip,

    You have my support. Too many Johnsons around defending a corrupt party.

    I hope to God that the GOP loses more seats this year. It’s about time we get more people in place to say NO, once and for all.

  29. 29.

    Zifnab

    October 18, 2007 at 6:37 pm

    So, pie? Anyone?

  30. 30.

    The Populist

    October 18, 2007 at 6:38 pm

    Peter, they overcharged a FEW BILLION. Please get the facts straight.

    I bet you hate the idea of tax dollars helping poor kids but could care less about being overcharged by defense contractors.

    Sorry, Blackwater isn’t doing their jobs and the crimes they commit reflect on ALL of us. If you dislike the UN, that’s your schtick…whatever…keep listening to Rush. I don’t love the UN, but guess what? Invading other country’s sovereignty is NOT something the founding fathers would have ever endorsed.

    The UN? Well, I dunno. Last time I checked they didn’t mow down innocent civilians in the name of liberty.

  31. 31.

    The Populist

    October 18, 2007 at 6:41 pm

    How come the GOP apologists (aka Party firsters) don’t get as upset about Halliburton and other contractors overcharging them for their “work” in Iraq and other places? They sure get worked up over everything else that has the words “tax dollars” attached.

    So it’s okay to enrich the elitists (yes, they are elitists since they had no-bid contracts) while they take tax dollars without any kind of accounting in place but God forbid we want to tax cigarettes to help poor kids and families.

    Man, the world has truly become a bizarre place. Ethics have been shoved out the window.

  32. 32.

    Dennis-SGMM

    October 18, 2007 at 6:42 pm

    Oil for Food was truly a digrace:

    You’re right: a three-year-old Op-Ed by William Safire is more than enough grounds to dismantle the UN. Bill was only 75 then and at the top of his form. Any ex-speechwriter for Richard Nixon clearly knows the ins and outs of good governance. Bill was also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by George W. Bush, putting him into the distinguished company of George Tenet, Tommy Franks and L. Paul Bremer.

    Never forget: the Black Helicopters won’t find you as long as you keep wearing your tinfoil hat.

  33. 33.

    The Populist

    October 18, 2007 at 6:44 pm

    BTW Peter – I am a responsible citizen. My first love is the constitution…parties don’t interest me.

    Dogma and all that other crap don’t interest me.

    Listening to talk radio fools who spout out a party line don’t interest me whatsoever.

    What interests me is holding those responsible. If we throw responsibility and dissent out, all that does is usher in questionable ethics and a population of sheep.

    Sorry, bud…Barry Goldwater taught me better than that.

  34. 34.

    The Populist

    October 18, 2007 at 6:45 pm

    Amen, Dennis, Amen.

  35. 35.

    rawshark

    October 18, 2007 at 6:47 pm

    The Populist Says:

    How come the GOP apologists (aka Party firsters) don’t get as upset about Halliburton and other contractors overcharging them for their “work” in Iraq and other places? They sure get worked up over everything else that has the words “tax dollars” attached.

    Same reason they don’t get upset when Mukasey says essentially the same thing as Durbin. Cognitive dissonance. Or doublethink if you prefer Orwellian terms to sciency words.

  36. 36.

    Dennis-SGMM

    October 18, 2007 at 6:58 pm

    The manifest success of US contractors in Iraq is highlighted by the Iraqi government’s contracting with Iran and China to have electrical generating plants built. This after we threw billions at Halliburton to rebuild the Iraqi infrastructure.

    The Republican Party: making Iraq safe for China and Iran.

  37. 37.

    The Populist

    October 18, 2007 at 7:04 pm

    Dennis,

    Shhh, those facts will confuse the righties. They can’t get past their beat up flags (from flying them on their SUVs) and love of Bush to realize that Halliburton hasn’t done much for those billions we’ve given them.

  38. 38.

    MikeF

    October 18, 2007 at 7:26 pm

    They are merely indifferent to the repercussions of their behavior.

    No, John Cole, everything they started was absolutely calculated for certain effects. The fact is, they don’t believe in democracy itself. It is a religion with them, literally, in that they view democracy as an aberration, and want to get back to a more Biblically based system of the king ruling in God’s name. If you look at everything they have done in totality and keep in mind the goal of destroying the democracy in all but name while converting it to a monarchical theocracy, then it all makes perfect sense.

    Think about it. They have tried to increase Presidential power while doing exactly the opposite of what you would do to keep a democracy going. This has been going on for many years now, quietly.

    Take away education. Check.

    Take away any social safety net. Check.

    Change the voting systems so they can be easily manipulated without anyone knowing. Check.

    Keep people fat dumb and happy. Check.

    Fill the bureaucracy and judiciary with like minded people whose only aim is to destroy the govt from within.

    and on and on. History is ripe with examples. This is not a conspiracy theory as such, as it is not a group of people in a smoke filled room making decisions like the Illuminati, but rather a shared goal where they all work in the general direction and the combined effects are enormous.

  39. 39.

    Zifnab

    October 18, 2007 at 7:53 pm

    How come the GOP apologists (aka Party firsters) don’t get as upset about Halliburton and other contractors overcharging them for their “work” in Iraq and other places? They sure get worked up over everything else that has the words “tax dollars” attached.

    That’s an excellent question. Perhaps because those that do the talking – Rush, Malkin, Hewt, et al – never read those offenses off on their list of talking points. Perhaps because those that do the listening – Red Staters, Riehlists, FAUX News adherents – are constantly assured that Republican contractors never do anything wrong and all suggestions to the contrary come from a deep liberal conspiracy.

    Or maybe conservatives don’t give two farts about big government so long as its their big government.

  40. 40.

    chopper

    October 18, 2007 at 8:15 pm

    Right…getting mad about someone stealing twenty billion makes a whack.

    even if it was 20 billion, we’ve lost that much in iraq many times over. don’t see you pissin up a storm about that.

    mote, beam, etc etc.

  41. 41.

    vetiver

    October 18, 2007 at 8:39 pm

    They were careless people, Tom and Daisy–they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made.

    From The Great Gatsby, published in 1925.

  42. 42.

    The Other Steve

    October 18, 2007 at 9:40 pm

    The manifest success of US contractors in Iraq is highlighted by the Iraqi government’s contracting with Iran and China to have electrical generating plants built. This after we threw billions at Halliburton to rebuild the Iraqi infrastructure.

    That’s just because we didn’t pay Halliburton enough.

  43. 43.

    Mont D. Law

    October 18, 2007 at 10:06 pm

    I keep hoping Christopher Walken will show up before you people actually manage to beget the apocalypse.

  44. 44.

    28 Percent

    October 18, 2007 at 10:16 pm

    If George W. Bush starts a big war as you say it will only be all your fault for not starting a little war first. That is logic maybe you should try it. Now if China keeps us from getting sanctions we will have no choice but to go to war but that is ok because sanctions would not work anyway they never do so there is no choice. But if China and Russia do not get on board like good team players then we will have to ask whether maybe they have WMDs and then go to war with them and that will be a land war in Asia and it is not our fault we had no choice. That is ok though the spartans were always going to war and look at what great shape they were in they all looked like movie stars.

  45. 45.

    whippoorwill

    October 18, 2007 at 10:41 pm

    And 28 percenter provides today’s lesson in wingnut logic.

    If George W. Bush starts a big war as you say it will only be all your fault for not starting a little war first.

  46. 46.

    grumpy realist

    October 18, 2007 at 10:53 pm

    And has said….does anyone think that the US economy would survive an attack on Iran?

    Given that few comments by Turkey was sufficient to send oil futures above $88/bbl….

    Anyone want to guess how high oil prices will go with George’s NEXT Excellent Little Adventure?

    Helloooo? Anyone here with two brain cells in the gov’t?

  47. 47.

    srv

    October 18, 2007 at 11:49 pm

    GW is just playing the bad boy. He doesn’t have to bomb Iran.

    Hillary or Mitt will do that later and will have Hu and Putin swooning to help. Rudy would have to have Condi as VP to pull that off.

    The playbook for the next presidency has already been written. We just don’t know who the Quarterback is going to be.

  48. 48.

    LITBMueller

    October 19, 2007 at 8:14 am

    If Bush bombs Iran, we won’t be talking about Al Quaida maybe hitting us here in the US. We’ll be talking about the 5 terrorist attacks that happened last week in LA and NYC, from the dozens, if not hundreds, of Hezbollah sleeper cells that have been here way before Al Quaida existed.

    Nah, Hezbollah is a nationalist, anti-Israel organization much more than an anti-West/US organization.

    What we WILL see is oil go skyrocketing, and everything from gas to the price of bread go up, while the housing market and finance industry collapse.

    Then, maybe for good measure, China will decide to finish us off by cashing in all of our bonds they have now.

  49. 49.

    Cyrus

    October 19, 2007 at 8:26 am

    Mont D. Law Says:
    I keep hoping Christopher Walken will show up before you people actually manage to beget the apocalypse.

    Unfortunately, according to Steven King, his chance came and went in 2000.

  50. 50.

    Zifnab

    October 19, 2007 at 8:28 am

    GW is just playing the bad boy. He doesn’t have to bomb Iran.

    Hillary or Mitt will do that later and will have Hu and Putin swooning to help. Rudy would have to have Condi as VP to pull that off.

    I seriously doubt that. Putin and Hu have been positioning themselves defensively around Iran, in hopes of getting their political tentacles into the Iranian oil supply. China needs the gas and Russia wants to maintain an energy hegemony in the East.

    The last thing either of them want is to see mushroom clouds springing up over Tehran. The entire world benefits from a stabilized Middle-East, we’re just fighting over who’s on top of the heap when it all settles.

    If Soviet era tanks and Chinese rockets start popping up in Iran over the next four years, don’t be surprised.

  51. 51.

    whippoorwill

    October 19, 2007 at 9:09 am

    Nah, Hezbollah is a nationalist, anti-Israel organization much more than an anti-West/US organization.

    What you say is true in practical effect, in recent times.
    However, Hezbollah is a creation of the Mullah’s of Iran. If we start a war with Iran, do you think their brethren in the US will sit by and drink tea? Or that the Mullah’s won’t set them loose to cause as much mayhem as they can. My comment about 5 terrorist attacks in a week was exaggerated, probably, but it is naive to think all of these people will idly sit by.

  52. 52.

    Randolph Fritz

    October 19, 2007 at 9:18 am

    But President Bush’s statements about children’s health shouldn’t be taken any more seriously than his lies about the war in Iraq. The truth is that Bush just likes to blow things up. In Iraq, in the United States and in Congress. –Rep Pete Stark (D-CA)

    …the whole bleedin’ planet?

    I think that about sums it up.

  53. 53.

    Wilfred

    October 19, 2007 at 9:30 am

    If we start a war with Iran, do you think their brethren in the US will sit by and drink tea?

    Brethren, eh? Best start roundin’ up alls a dem brown mens and shippin’ off to Gitmo ‘den. An ounce of prevention…

  54. 54.

    whippoorwill

    October 19, 2007 at 9:35 am

    Brethren, eh? Best start roundin’ up alls a dem brown mens and shippin’ off to Gitmo ‘den. An ounce of prevention…

    I hope your comment wasn’t in some way suggesting that I was suggesting we should round up anybody. If it wasn’t well no problem. If it was then Wilfred you can go fuck yourself!

  55. 55.

    Wilfred

    October 19, 2007 at 9:46 am

    (auto-redact) Oi loikes pie, me!

    Listen asshole, what you mean by brethren? Co-religionists? Arabs? Lebanese Shia? Muslims in general, whatever their color? All of the above?

    What comes after stating that Hezbollah’s U.S. based ‘brethren’ will make terrorism against Americans? The mere suggestion of such a thing reeks of the typical, now permanently built-in massification of Arabs and Muslims that has become invisible, even on supposedly progressive sites.

    Where do you think rendition came from if not from fear that the ‘brethren’ would take action?

  56. 56.

    whippoorwill

    October 19, 2007 at 9:58 am

    Listen asshole, what you mean by brethren? Co-religionists? Arabs? Lebanese Shia? Muslims in general, whatever their color? All of the above?

    I mean just I said earlier, Hezbollah sleeper agents that are in this country and have been for a long time. I’m against invading Iran as I was Iraq and was stating my opinion that if we invade Iran there will be consequences. Are you so stupid to think simply pointing something out is going to cause Bush to act to round up “brown” people. I’m sure they’ve thought of that already on their own and will likely do just that.

    Go slither back with the nuts at dem underground, fuckface.

  57. 57.

    Wilfred

    October 19, 2007 at 10:05 am

    You’re trying to weasel out of what you said, and you’re violating the high standards of intertron decorum for which this site is famed.

    Hezbollah sleeper agents, eh? They live. Tell me, do they have WMD? Or do they just boom out falafel and hummous farts on the subway?

  58. 58.

    chopper

    October 19, 2007 at 10:07 am

    i have no doubts at all that there are hezbollah in the united states. i do think that their existence is overblown a bit. however, i have no doubts at all that if we invade iran or start bombing the hell out of them, we’re going to see trouble at home.

    the question is how much.

  59. 59.

    chopper

    October 19, 2007 at 10:11 am

    you don’t need WMD to cause major trouble in the US. a backpack full of explosives left on the NY subway is all it takes.

  60. 60.

    whippoorwill

    October 19, 2007 at 10:14 am

    One example. I could provide more but I doubt it would convince your fevered mind.

  61. 61.

    Wilfred

    October 19, 2007 at 10:29 am

    Ok, here’s a question for both of you. Believing that Hezbollah sleeper agents will engage in terrorism if, and presumably only if, the Unites States attacks Iran what would you do in the event that actually happens? Possiblities.

    a) increase FISA surveillance on Arabs/Muslims/Kareem Abdul Jabbar, et al. since you don’t know who these sleeper agents actually are.

    b) arrest and waterboard the most probable suspects since they are sure to blow up the fucking D train if you don’t

    c) do nothing.

    I’m probably leaving some out but you get the drift. Seems like you are both making the case for preemptive strikes against Arabs/Muslims since you certainly can’t prevent Bush from attacking Iran. Again, if you really believe what you say is true, what would you do to protect the Homeland?

  62. 62.

    whippoorwill

    October 19, 2007 at 10:37 am

    Wilfred,

    I think you need to take your anger at republican mindsets to a wingnut site. I would suggest maybe Redstate or Powerline. I’m a liberal person who is against any kind of torture and spying in the US without valid constitutional warrants.

    the question is how much.

    And your right Chopper, nobody knows how much which could be hardly any.

  63. 63.

    Zifnab

    October 19, 2007 at 10:45 am

    are believed “to be planning to activate sleeper cells located in New York and other larger cities inside the U.S.” to stage attacks Americans. “The FBI and Justice Department have launched urgent new probes in New York and other cities targeting members of the Lebanese terror group.” Law-enforcement and intelligence officials stated that “about a dozen hard-core supporters of Hezbollah have been identified in recent weeks as operating in the New York City area (alone).”

    Just out of interest, are these Lebenese Hezbollah operatives in any way related to the guys who wanted to blow up the Sears Tower from Miami using only their Kung-Fu? Were they the evil insurgents who planned to sell Jose Padilla a dirty bomb? Are they armed and dangerous, or are they just “under suspicion”, kinda like the House Representative from Michigan’s 7th District Kieth Ellison?

    Did they raise the terror alert to “Hook’m Horns” Orange yet? Not that I’m not totally scared shitless by the idea that evil terrorists walk amongst us, waiting to reign down death and destruction at a word from their Iranian High Commanders, but don’t you think that maybe you’re overreacting somewhat?

  64. 64.

    Wilfred

    October 19, 2007 at 11:00 am

    I’m a liberal person who is against any kind of torture and spying in the US without valid constitutional warrants.

    Ah, spoof.

  65. 65.

    whippoorwill

    October 19, 2007 at 11:04 am

    Zifnab

    You left out the arch the ace Jihadi who was going to going to bring down the Brooklyn Bridge. All your examples are from knucklehead Al Quaida wanna bes . Which is likely all the presence AQ qaida in the US.

    I already said my first post was an exaggeration, probably.
    I’m just saying Hezbollah is different and the possibility of attacks by them, IF we invade Iraq , is real. Jesus, I thought this was common knowledge when I mentioned it. And I get attacked like I’m GWB trolling on BJ.

    Just out of interest, are these Lebenese Hezbollah operatives in any way related to the guys who wanted to blow up the Sears Tower from Miami using only their Kung-Fu? Were they the evil insurgents who planned to sell Jose Padilla a dirty bomb? Are they armed and dangerous, or are they just “under suspicion”, kinda like the House Representative from Michigan’s 7th District Kieth Ellison?

    And this part of your comment is just a smartass remark that seems aimed at picking a fight.

  66. 66.

    chopper

    October 19, 2007 at 11:04 am

    Seems like you are both making the case for preemptive strikes against Arabs/Muslims since you certainly can’t prevent Bush from attacking Iran.

    are you high on goofballs or somethin? i’m just pointing out that there’s some hezbollah in the us, and that if we attack iran we’re likely to see some kind of fallout from them. dunno how much.

    how the hell did you get “preemptive strikes against arabs and muslims” from that?

  67. 67.

    whippoorwill

    October 19, 2007 at 11:11 am

    Ah, spoof.

    The mother ship is calling for you Wilfred, time for your shot.

  68. 68.

    Zifnab

    October 19, 2007 at 11:28 am

    I’m just saying Hezbollah is different and the possibility of attacks by them, IF we invade Iraq , is real. Jesus, I thought this was common knowledge when I mentioned it. And I get attacked like I’m GWB trolling on BJ.

    It’s not AQ and Hezbollah I’m differentiating against. Your “source” is what I find so questionable. We’ve seen dozens of false alarms and phoney threats over the last seven years, all stemming from Republican political opps posing as people who know how to do their jobs.

    It’s all a phantom menace. The real menaces – Hurricanes, economic disparities, poisoned food and toys from China, global warming, deadly pharmaceuticals – are being overlooked. How many people are likely to die from a Hezbollah terror attack, whippoorwill? Now compare that to the number of dead from Katrina. Or the number of people thrown into the hospital from poisoned spinach or lead-painted toys. Or the number of people crippled by Vioxx, because the FDA dropped the ball.

    You’re alot more likely to be using Vioxx than you are to ever met a terrorist. So why are you pissing yourself about Hezbollah when the real threats are sitting on your local Eckard’s countertop?

  69. 69.

    The Populist

    October 19, 2007 at 11:43 am

    China might cash us out but if we attack Iran, their holdings will be worthless. You see, the dollar will be dead the day we commence bombing.

    What the righties like Peter seem to ignore is that he is propping up his little worthless party at his own expense. He buys into the drumbeat of war because the UN is much worse in his opinion. He sees we can do no wrong because Fox says so. Rush thinks we are the kings of the world, so he happily marches to that beat.

    What puzzles me is how he’ll sell his children’s future (that is if he has any) for some bizarre reassurance that Bush can do no wrong. The party will control him and keep him honest (yeah right). He thinks his ideology and hatred of “liberal” ideals makes him righteous, makes him part of the club.

    Problem is the “club” doesn’t want anything to do with his ilk. If he isn’t a backroom dealer, he is nothing. Therefore, he is selling out his own economic well being for some bizarre notion that attacking sovereign countries will make us greater.

    Sure worked out for the Soviets, eh? What about Rome? England? Nazi Germany? Japan? Persia? Mesopotamia?

    Why these people will throw their lot in with folks who borrow more money than can be paid back all for wars and crony capitalism? What does he get out of this? Nothing…

    I could go on and on…

  70. 70.

    The Populist

    October 19, 2007 at 11:46 am

    Chopper is right…

    Look at L.A. & NYC…there are MANY Iranian ex-pats. Who’s to say that a few of them aren’t here to keep an eye on the dissidents? Who’s to say that some have marching orders that if Iran is attacked to go wild?

    Canada has many as well. Who’s to say their orders aren’t to infiltrate the U.S. and attack should the order come down?

    I have no doubts they have cells here just as AQ does. Anybody who thinks otherwise is in some denial.

  71. 71.

    The Populist

    October 19, 2007 at 11:47 am

    BTW – I am by no means advocating spying on Iranian ex-pats…I believe selling liberty for a false sense of security goes against every freedom loving bone in my body.

  72. 72.

    whippoorwill

    October 19, 2007 at 11:51 am

    You’re alot more likely to be using Vioxx than you are to ever met a terrorist. So why are you pissing yourself about Hezbollah when the real threats are sitting on your local Eckard’s countertop?

    Do you mean to say pissing “on” myself. That’s very funny Zifnab. In relation to what I’ve ACTUALLY said, your argument making comparisons to all sorts of other issues is irrelevant and nonsense.

    Your making an argument against a wingnut viewpoint. I’ve been posting here for a month or two now, do you think I’m an wingnut Zifnab. If you do, then your arguments may be relevant in your own mind and we can a fight, although I’d rather fight with wingnuts. And if you don’t, then I’ll suggest the same for you as I did Wilfred, go argue with Redstaters or Assrocket.

  73. 73.

    28 Percent

    October 19, 2007 at 11:51 am

    China might cash us out but if we attack Iran, their holdings will be worthless. You see, the dollar will be dead the day we commence bombing.

    China had better watch there step and not block UN sanctions if they do there will be no way to keep the world safe except to bomb Iran. If they cash in their bonds they will ruin the world economy and it will be all there fault there is nothing we can do to stop it. They will be hurt worse than we are but maybe they just have to learn that CHOICES HAVE CONSEQUENCES.

  74. 74.

    liberal

    October 19, 2007 at 12:10 pm

    LITBMueller wrote,

    Nah, Hezbollah is a nationalist, anti-Israel organization much more than an anti-West/US organization.

    Agreed.

    whippoorwill wrote,

    If we start a war with Iran, do you think their brethren in the US will sit by and drink tea? Or that the Mullah’s won’t set them loose to cause as much mayhem as they can.

    But Hezb. probably hasn’t put much (or any) effort into placing sleeper cells in the US. And AFAICT that kind of stuff can’t be set up overnight.

    I think it’s much more likely that Iran would respond by attempting to shut down the Gulf. Some people have commented (not here necessarily) that Iran wouldn’t do that because they’d be harming uninvolved parties whose goodwill they need, but I don’t buy that. IMHO their attitude would be “you guys sat around while the US bombed us in clear violation of the UN Charter.”

  75. 75.

    LITBMueller

    October 19, 2007 at 12:40 pm

    I have no doubts they have cells here just as AQ does. Anybody who thinks otherwise is in some denial.

    Well, I guess I’m in denial, then, because there has been absolutely no evidence of Hezbollah sleeper cells in the US since DoJ and Canadian law enforcement started talking about the possibility back in the summer of 2006 when Israel started bombing Lebanon. There was a lot of supposition, but no evidence. In fact, the only people in any way connected with Hezbollah that have been arrested in the US and Canada are people that were doing fundraising here.

    In some ways, Hezbollah can be seen as operating as the same way as the PIRA during the heyday of the Troubles (no offense to the Irish! :)) – they are a nationalistic organization that get support from other governments (Iran in the case of Hezbollah, Libya in the case of PIRA) and do fundraising here.

    Plus, Hezbollah would have to be suicidal as an organization if they were set up sleeper cells here, and then carry out terrorist attacks here after any strike on Iran. The US (and Israeli?) response would be swift, and they’d quickly find themselves sharing caves with the Taliban.

    Also, they’re not the same sort of extremists as AQ – they have shown a sort of practicality (for a terrorist organization), with a political wing and social services in Lebanon for example, and they ended suicide attacks in Israel after the Israelis pulled out of Lebanon.

    So, Hezbollah a sleeper cell attacks on the Mall of America after a bombing of the Quds force is anything but a foregone conclusion.

    But, the economic havoc such an attack would create is.

  76. 76.

    Cain

    October 19, 2007 at 1:05 pm

    I’m also pretty skeptical about Hezbollah sleeper cells. Putting in a sleeper cell requires in my mind some long range plan to infiltrate the U.S. to formulate chaos. But Iran and others would never have known that Bush would have attacked Iraq in response to 911 and then be aggressive towards Iran. I can’t imagine Hezbollah that organized.

    Besides, the U.S. has no credibility in attacking anyone. Unless Congress does something very foolish, he’ll never get authorization to strike Iran. The administration has lost all credibility with just about everyone. If they do strike Iran it would be done incompetently and our economy would tank even more. We’d self destruct, there wouldn’t be any need for sleeper cells to do formulate chaoas, we’d already be knee deep in it.

    cain

  77. 77.

    srv

    October 19, 2007 at 1:14 pm

    I seriously doubt that. Putin and Hu have been positioning themselves defensively around Iran, in hopes of getting their political tentacles into the Iranian oil supply. China needs the gas and Russia wants to maintain an energy hegemony in the East.

    The last thing either of them want is to see mushroom clouds springing up over Tehran. The entire world benefits from a stabilized Middle-East, we’re just fighting over who’s on top of the heap when it all settles.

    Russia was doing deals with Iraq right up until the bombs started falling.

    Iran is a proxy war with China, but they’ll probably be forced to do the “realist” thing to stop our mushroom clouds from springing up. Hillary, Mitt and Rudy are completely onboard with a showdown.

    If Soviet era tanks and Chinese rockets start popping up in Iran over the next four years, don’t be surprised.

    I think you missed who’s been arming Iran already. But it won’t matter. What do you think would be a bigger problem for China? Not being in the drivers seat for Iranian oil, or a US carrier sunk by a Sunburn?

  78. 78.

    Zifnab

    October 19, 2007 at 1:44 pm

    But it won’t matter. What do you think would be a bigger problem for China? Not being in the drivers seat for Iranian oil, or a US carrier sunk by a Sunburn?

    Honestly? At the moment? If a US carrier got sunk by a Sunborn torpedo, we’d just end up bombing Iran harder and never give China a second glance.

    However, you’re right. It’s not like US firms haven’t been arms-dealing with Iran right up till the present day. Still, China would be happy to run the US military through yet another Middle Eastern meat grinder.

  79. 79.

    srv

    October 19, 2007 at 2:00 pm

    Still, China would be happy to run the US military through yet another Middle Eastern meat grinder.

    Before the GWoT got in the way, the neocons were writing about how we needed to start a war with China sooner rather than later. If I thought they were really that bright, one might think that the best way to limit any threats to the Hyperpower would be to be sitting on top of any threats oil supply. Everything else is just a charade.

    From that perspective, $250B/year and 100K+ troops is pretty cheap.

  80. 80.

    Peter Johnson

    October 19, 2007 at 2:51 pm

    Before the GWoT got in the way, the neocons were writing about how we needed to start a war with China sooner rather than later.

    Example? I’ve never heard anyone say we should go to war with China.

  81. 81.

    Peter Johnson

    October 19, 2007 at 2:54 pm

    I’m also pretty skeptical about Hezbollah sleeper cells. Putting in a sleeper cell requires in my mind some long range plan to infiltrate the U.S. to formulate chaos. But Iran and others would never have known that Bush would have attacked Iraq in response to 911 and then be aggressive towards Iran. I can’t imagine Hezbollah that organized.

    Think again.

    Hizbullah “sleeper” terror cells set up outside Lebanon with Iranian assistance have been put on standby The Jerusalem Post learned on Sunday, and are likely planning attacks against Jewish and Israeli targets throughout the world.

    The Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) confirmed to the Post Sunday night that it had instructed embassies, consulates and Jewish institutions it was responsible for abroad to raise their level of awareness in light of the conflict in the North.

    The assumption within Military Intelligence is that Hizbullah would only attack targets abroad if it felt pushed into a corner. According to this thinking, the Islamist group hesitates to carry out such attacks because it does not want to be associated with Global Jihad and al-Qaida.

    Hizbullah has attacked Jewish and Israeli targets abroad in the past. The organization is believed to have been behind the attack on the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires in 1992 during which a suicide bomber drove a pick-up truck filled with explosives into the building, killing 29 people and wounding 242, following Israel’s assassination of the group’s leader at the time, Sheikh Abbas Musawi.

    Hizbullah is also thought to have been responsible for the attack on the Argentine Israelite Mutual Association building in Buenos Aires in 1994, when an explosives-laden van rammed into the structure and killed 85 people.

    Another attack attributed to the group was the 1985 hijacking of TWA flight 847. One passenger was murdered; the remainder of the hostages were released over a two-week period.

  82. 82.

    liberal

    October 19, 2007 at 3:38 pm

    Peter Johnson quoted,

    Hizbullah “sleeper” terror cells set up outside Lebanon with Iranian assistance have been put on standby The Jerusalem Post learned on Sunday, and are likely planning attacks against Jewish and Israeli targets throughout the world.

    But that says that Hezbullah targets Israel and Israeli-linked targets, not US targets.

  83. 83.

    Zifnab

    October 19, 2007 at 3:46 pm

    The Jerusalem Post? David Horovitz’s Jerusalem Post? The same David Horovitz who sponsors Islamofascist Awareness Week? The guy who wet himself when he heard the Iranian President was to speak at Columbia University?

    Yeah, I can totally see why he’s got his knickers in a twist.

  84. 84.

    liberal

    October 19, 2007 at 3:48 pm

    Peter Johnson bithered,

    Example? I’ve never heard anyone say we should go to war with China.

    Have you heard of Google?

    James Fallows::

    At the first meeting, one Republican woman on the commission said that the overwhelming threat was from China. Sooner or later the U.S. would end up in a military showdown with the Chinese Communists. There was no avoiding it, and we would only make ourselves weaker by waiting. No one else spoke up in support.

    The same thing happened at the second meeting — discussion from other commissioners about terrorism, nuclear proliferation, anarchy of failed states, etc, and then this one woman warning about the looming Chinese menace. And the third meeting too. Perhaps more.

    Finally, in frustration, this woman left the commission.

    “Her name was Lynne Cheney,” Hart said.

    Francis Fukuyama (according to Matthew Yglesias):

    Fukuyama says of Bill Kristol and his circle at The Weekly Standard that during the 1990s “There was actually a deliberate search for an enemy because they felt that the Republican Party didn’t do as well” when foreign policy wasn’t on the issue agenda. The obvious candidates were either China or something relating to Islamic fundamentalism and, as Fukuyama notes, what they came up with was China.

  85. 85.

    Zifnab

    October 19, 2007 at 3:52 pm

    Example? I’ve never heard anyone say we should go to war with China.

    Google-fied!

  86. 86.

    Chris Johnson

    October 19, 2007 at 4:07 pm

    I don’t like this post. It gets people posting spoofs (28% cites Princess Bride and 300) and I’m not liking it because we’ve got people that twisted out there who aren’t joking, and because this big of a mess really isn’t funny.

    The only consolation is that we’re already in such a mess that we CANNOT do such a thing. That’s the saving grace of having batshit insane leaders: by the time they are ready to really push the limits of how evil you can be (note I don’t say ‘turn evil’ because they already are), their hubris has led them to a place where they will fail in their larger evil.

    All they’ll do is destroy THIS country, most notably by plunging us into poverty, starvation, chaos. More and more I think we deserve that. As a good little american I’ll be plugging away anyhow- trying to run my business (I am an intellectual property exporter- build software for sale worldwide), donating spare food to the local food shelf, trying to help out local guys who are trying to quit drugs and drink.

    I would remind the rest of the world that not all us Americans are batshit insane, or evil. However, we are being held responsible for singlehandedly stopping an extraordinarily ruthless and sociopathic group of people. We failed to come up with the common sense and the will to avoid horrible actions after 9/11, because we lost our minds and panicked. At this point something like 70% of us are against more and continued war, so if it is done anyway, you’ll just have to conclude we have a rogue government that doesn’t represent the populace.

    Which is kind of like ‘no shit, Sherlock’, except that our media is tightly controlled like a banana republic to put out the idea that the people DID vote Bush in, that they do approve of all this, etc. You can’t go by that, sorry. You’ll just have to conclude that by the same token, our _corporations_ don’t represent the will of the people either.

    So exhausting, facing up to this stuff. You just want to crawl off and die. It’s not funny at all. I can see why so many people want desperately to believe anything they are told that is more upbeat. That’s why it works for so long, while your country is subverted. Easy lies.

  87. 87.

    The Populist

    October 19, 2007 at 4:30 pm

    So Lynne Cheney wants war with China? Hmmmm….

    Where would she propose we get the troops for such an endeavor?

    Funniest yet is her husband’s free trade deals with that country have made them what they are today.

    What clowns these people are.

    Oh and Peter Johnson, many righties needed an enemy or boogeyman when Bush came to office. China was one they tried very hard to make the case for.

    Face it, your beloved party loves to have boogeymen since you have no concept of debate and diplomacy.

  88. 88.

    srv

    October 19, 2007 at 4:38 pm

    I can see why so many people want desperately to believe anything they are told that is more upbeat. That’s why it works for so long, while your country is subverted. Easy lies.

    Not to cheer you up or anything, but it’s always darkest just before it goes pitch black.

    As far as I’m concerned, if Obama or Paul don’t win, it’s over.

    But it was a decent run. 1776-2001. RIP.

  89. 89.

    Zifnab

    October 19, 2007 at 4:59 pm

    Not to cheer you up or anything, but it’s always darkest just before it goes pitch black.

    As far as I’m concerned, if Obama or Paul don’t win, it’s over.

    But it was a decent run. 1776-2001. RIP.

    Did they give up after the Articles of the Confederation failed? No!
    Did they turn tail and run when the British sacked Washington in the War of 1812? No!
    Did they abandon ship after South Carolina fired on Fort Sumter? No!
    Did they turn tail in the middle of the Great Depression? No!
    Did they surrender when McCarthy lossed his witch trials on the American public? No!
    Did they toss in the towel after the third season of The Simple Life? Maybe a little!

    But the important thing to remember is that America has been fucking up for over 250 years, and we’re still the biggest bad-ass in world kinda-sorta. I mean, we’ve got American Idol, right? And nukes? That’s gotta count for something. And, seriously, how much worse could it possibly get? This has got to be absolutely, positively rock bottom. I’m just sure of it. :-p

    Well, I tried.

  90. 90.

    srv

    October 19, 2007 at 5:48 pm

    And, seriously, how much worse could it possibly get?

    If the last few years have shown anything, it’s that fear knows no bounds.

    Never before have so many been afraid of so little.

  91. 91.

    Peter Johnson

    October 19, 2007 at 6:04 pm

    But that says that Hezbullah targets Israel and Israeli-linked targets, not US targets.

    So it’s okay as long as they just get kill Israelis? You’ve hanging out with Walt and Mearsheimer, I see.

  92. 92.

    DougJ

    October 19, 2007 at 6:13 pm

    I don’t like this post. It gets people posting spoofs (28% cites Princess Bride and 300) and I’m not liking it because we’ve got people that twisted out there who aren’t joking, and because this big of a mess really isn’t funny.

    Never confuse that which is not funny with that which we should not joke about. Stephen Colbert and John Stewart have done more for the discourse in this country than anyone else, with the possible exceptions of Josh Marshall and Paul Krugman (both of whom are a bit jokey themselves).

    There’s nothing funny about the increasing likelihood that we are about to plunge into late Rome-style bread and circus fascism. It’s terrifying and horrible and anyone who cares about mankind should do everything they can to stop it.

    I’m afraid that one of the most effective things for us to do is to tell jokes about it. Yes, we should all canvass for candidates and writer our Congressmen too. But turning the demise of society into a humorous spectacle that entertains people might just be the best way to shine a light on what is happening.

    Hey, I wish we could just go around explaining to people how fucked up things are, that we are ruled by right-wing war-mongering lunatics who are propped up by corrupt/senile Georgetown pseudojournalists. But that doesn’t work. Believe me, I’ve tried.

    As far as getting out point across goes, humor seems to be the best weapon. Olbermann, Stewart, and Colbert are the only three people on television I listen to.

  93. 93.

    The Populist

    October 19, 2007 at 6:18 pm

    So it’s okay as long as they just get kill Israelis? You’ve hanging out with Walt and Mearsheimer, I see.

    Peter Johnson, why are you attributing such nonsense to that poster?

    I know, you can’t answer and I personally am fine with that (you folks love your talking points!) but do NOT play the right wing misinterpretation/obfuscation game, mmmmkay?

  94. 94.

    Li

    October 19, 2007 at 6:37 pm

    I might add Dodd into that short list, but Paul and Obama seem to be honest, and devoted to what this country actually stands for, albeit from different perspectives. The fact that the media either ignores or derides them shows their complicity in this fiasco.

    In a way, you have to hand it to them, their plan to take over the nation by infiltrating or buying up all of the media companies and smearing anyone who didn’t play along was brilliant. Then, this quasi-fascist movement made their most clever move by painting the MSM as their enemy. By doing this they were able to simultaneously neuter the journalists themselves (already emasculated by their bosses) while creating an environment in which nothing could be trusted and any fact could be cast aside as ‘media bias’ or some other fantasy. This, combined with the radio talkers spewing constant lies and fear, created an environment in which the Big Lie could be told.
    As always with these plans of reckless ambition, it was sold as an existential threat. Most of us know how little their actions have to do with the threat, and frankly those keystone creeps can’t even drive a flaming van into an airport anymore. Now, onto Iran, and there doesn’t seem to be any stopping them; the creeping coup was a success before we even knew it was happening. The only comfort is that this bombastic move is self-defeating, and they are so deluded by their fantasies of invincibility that they can’t see that. Let’s hope and pray it ends with an economic crash, rather than a nuclear exchange.

  95. 95.

    DougJ

    October 19, 2007 at 6:44 pm

    In a way, you have to hand it to them, their plan to take over the nation by infiltrating or buying up all of the media companies and smearing anyone who didn’t play along was brilliant.

    The word you’re looking for is “shameless” not “brilliant.” It’s a fascist technique as old as time.

    I’m sure we can find some nut in ancient Babylon who made a lot of money on his club and cudgel factory by bribing the town scribes into writing about the Assyrian menace and smearing everyone who disagreed as anti-Babylonian.

  96. 96.

    Li

    October 19, 2007 at 6:50 pm

    No, the word I wanted was ‘brilliant’. Shameless does apply to them, yes, in spades, but the plan itself was very clever. It’s good that they aren’t as clever at governing as they are at grasping greedily at power and wealth, or the American people would be in straits far more dire.

  97. 97.

    DougJ

    October 19, 2007 at 6:58 pm

    I really don’t think the plan was that clever. I think anyone who spent a day reading some combination of Lenin, Goering, and Goebells would have come up with it.

  98. 98.

    DougJ

    October 19, 2007 at 7:00 pm

    It’s kind of like saying that kicking the other guy in the balls and gouging his eyes is a “brilliant” street-fighting technique.

  99. 99.

    jcricket

    October 19, 2007 at 7:09 pm

    Did they toss in the towel after the third season of The Simple Life? Maybe a little!

    Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

    No!

    Now who’s with me.

  100. 100.

    srv

    October 19, 2007 at 8:29 pm

    But turning the demise of society into a humorous spectacle that entertains people might just be the best way to shine a light on what is happening.

    Nothing would be more entertaining than seeing a wave of Colberts going all Tony Montana.

  101. 101.

    incontrolados

    October 19, 2007 at 9:00 pm

    Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

    No!

    Now who’s with me.

    Capitan says, ‘yarh!’

    Did I already make an ass of myself on this thread? No?

    How can a grown man, much less a grandfather, call himself Captain Ed (without being a captain of anything)? And then go on to be respected? I don’t get it.

  102. 102.

    incontrolados

    October 19, 2007 at 9:01 pm

    Looks like Moyers is looking into Blackwater. Should be interesting.

  103. 103.

    Chris Johnson

    October 19, 2007 at 10:21 pm

    It’s not brilliant because they’re not trying to do anything practical or even possible. They’re gunning for Total Empire at home and abroad, but the trouble is our military will break. It’s a claymore being used as a sledgehammer- it will become useless. Same with the corporations being given special privileges and encouraged to basically loot the economy- when it collapses, only a few people in these corporations will cash out and run, the rest will go splat like Enron rank and file.

    I don’t call a few people pillaging and wrecking freakin’ CIVILIZATION ‘brilliant’. Brilliant would be if their wild ideas were plausible: if you could have, say, a sustainable robber-baron empire or a workable ‘New American Century’ (points for not specifying a THOUSAND years, somebody has half a clue about history).

    But you don’t, because you can’t- it’s a pipe dream.

    So here we are.

  104. 104.

    TenguPhule

    October 19, 2007 at 10:51 pm

    And, seriously, how much worse could it possibly get?

    Commander in Chief Frank-N-Furter.

  105. 105.

    TenguPhule

    October 19, 2007 at 10:53 pm

    All they’ll do is destroy THIS country, most notably by plunging us into poverty, starvation, chaos.

    I look on the bright side, those in power who did this are not going to escape it.

    The wheel of Karmic Irony grinds slow but fine.

  106. 106.

    Peter Johnson

    October 19, 2007 at 11:35 pm

    Looks like Moyers is looking into Blackwater.

    Gee, I’m sure that will be a fair look. Why didn’t they just get Michael Moore to do it?

  107. 107.

    Cain

    October 20, 2007 at 12:25 am

    Hizbullah “sleeper” terror cells set up outside Lebanon with Iranian assistance have been put on standby The Jerusalem Post learned on Sunday, and are likely planning attacks against Jewish and Israeli targets throughout the world.

    Well sure, they got sleeper cells for Israel they’ve organized themselves against them, that’s why they exist. They have a long range plan for those guys. They’ve been around for what? 30 years or something? Plenty of time to work on nefarious sleeper type cells. My point still stands.

    cain

  108. 108.

    liberal

    October 20, 2007 at 2:38 am

    Peter Johnson wrote,

    So it’s okay as long as they just get kill Israelis? You’ve hanging out with Walt and Mearsheimer, I see.

    Huh? I’m saying that the claims in the quoted article don’t bear on the question of whether Hezbollah has sleeper cells in the US.

    But you go ahead and keep on committing logical fallacies.

  109. 109.

    jcricket

    October 20, 2007 at 12:04 pm

    How can a grown man, much less a grandfather, call himself Captain Ed (without being a captain of anything)? And then go on to be respected? I don’t get it.

    You’re forgetting the other heroes of the right-wing whine-o-sphere: Hindrocket, The Big Trunk and whatever the other douche-bag called himself on Powerline. And at least one of those guys is a lawyer.

    Seriously.

  110. 110.

    Cain

    October 20, 2007 at 1:08 pm

    You’re forgetting the other heroes of the right-wing whine-o-sphere: Hindrocket, The Big Trunk and

    Man, why is everything some kind of allusion to “ass”? Assrocket, Hindrocket, Big Trunk… How can you take any of this stuff serious? They’re sites that shoot blanks from their ass.

    Must be a busy weekend for Cole and Tim. I’m not getting my Balloon-Juice fix. I think I’m going into withrdrawal. On the other hand I have a midterm to study for..

    cain

  111. 111.

    jcricket

    October 20, 2007 at 1:47 pm

    Assrocket, Hindrocket, Big Trunk… How can you take any of this stuff serious?

    To be fair, Assrocket and Hindrocket are the same person (Hindrocket being the nickname he actually gave himself, and Assrocket being the obvious mocking of said nickname). So there’s only really two idiotic ass-related nicknames two authors of the Time Magazine’s “Blog of the Year” gave themselves.

    But I digress. What’s more important is to start spreading the reality that the right-wing blogosphere is made up of some serious self-hating homos (see Drudge, for one).

    Oh, almost forgot the doughy pantload (Jonah Goldberg). Not that he calls himself that. But he should.

  112. 112.

    TenguPhule

    October 21, 2007 at 12:25 am

    Shorter Dick Prick: Blackwater good. Democrats Bad! Change my Diaper!

  113. 113.

    The Populist

    October 22, 2007 at 1:45 am

    Gee, I’m sure that will be a fair look. Why didn’t they just get Michael Moore to do it?

    If Moore did it, I’d at least be entertained. As for Moyers, I take a lot of what he says much more seriously than your hero Rush or Brit Hume.

    You folks need to realize your media (there is no liberal media dude) is as unfair as anything I’ve seen in my lifetime.

    God I hate partisans who can’t say anything objective or fair.

  114. 114.

    The Populist

    October 22, 2007 at 1:47 am

    Liberal,

    He’s a partisan who only listens to one side of the story.

  115. 115.

    Tax Analyst

    October 22, 2007 at 10:50 am

    It ought to be boggling that someone who thinks they are making intelligent arguments can’t tell the difference between Bill Moyers and Michael Moore – but considering the source, it’s not.

    Hey Peter, have yourself a Nice Day over there in your Bizarro World, OK?

  116. 116.

    The Populist

    October 22, 2007 at 11:28 am

    Amen Tax Analyst,

    I guess since Bill Moyers doesn’t spew venom and one sided right wing friendly invective, he must be equal to Michael Moore.

    I am no fan of Moore’s but he is entertaining if you take him with a grain of salt. Sometimes he hits the nail on the head but a lot of times he’s no different than any partisan shill that somebody like Peter loves so much.

  117. 117.

    Toots

    October 23, 2007 at 12:49 pm

    Check out what the WP’s Glenn Kessler said about Bush’s soul seeing talents. This is a rather large story that no one seems to have picked up on.

    http://www.btcnews.com/btcnews/1752

    [A]t his very first meeting with Putin, Putin told [Bush] a story about a cross that he had blessed in Israel that used to belong to his grandmother. People that are aware of this conversation at the State Department feel that the President got played by Putin. There is no cross. There was just some KGB story that he made up. But it had a real impact on President Bush. That’s when he walked out and said, ‘I looked into his soul and decided this is the guy I can work with.’ And for the longest time in the first term, if you talked to then National Security Adviser Rice, she always painted the relationship with Russia in very rosy terms. …”

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