Ed Henry on Anderson Cooper 360 last night:
GEORGE W. BUSH, U.S. PRESIDENT: I told people that if you’re interested in avoiding World War III, it seems like you ought to be interested in preventing them from having the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon. I take the threat of Iran with a nuclear weapon very seriously.
(END VIDEO CLIP) HENRY: Now, the president insists he still hopes to solve this crisis with Iran diplomatically. But if you will remember, that’s what he said before launching a war in Iraq. And so that’s also why his words carry so much meaning tonight, Anderson.
COOPER: Well, Ed, also the diplomatic fronts got a whole lot more confusing. Russia’s president, Vladimir Putin, has been meeting with the Iranian president. Putin, he seems to be picking sides here.
HENRY: Absolutely. He’s taking swipes at the United States. Mr. Bush obviously thought Mr. Putin was an ally, but for various reasons he’s not looking like one these days. Especially because of this meeting over last few days with President Ahmadinejad. Putin looking like he’s cozying up to him. And Putin also directly contradicted Mr. Bush by saying he doesn’t believe Iran has nuclear ambitions and also basically warning that the U.S. should not launch any attack against Iran, Anderson.
COOPER: So much for the president looking into his eyes, I guess, and seeing his soul, as he once about Vladimir Putin.
HENRY: Yeah.
COOPER: Today in Washington the president was shown with the Dalai Lama. You say that also could come back to have implications for Iran’s nuclear ambitions. How so?
HENRY: Absolutely. I mean, Mr. Bush got plaudits today from even some Democrats on the Hill by standing up and being seen publicly with the Dalai Lama but obviously that makes China irate and China is key here. Because you can’t get any tough sanctions passed in the United Nations Security Council without China on board.
So if they are angry, that is not good. And if you don’t get tough sanctions, sanctions actually with some teeth, that takes a big weapon off the table and makes the possibility — I stress possibility — of war more likely, Anderson.
If Bush really is dead-set on attacking Iran with a military strike, this is precisely what they would want to do to pave the way. It effectively removes the UN from the equation, as he can agitate China to the point hat the UN option will not be available.
It is a win, win, win, win for Bush. Get credit from the mindless droids at home for meeting with the Dalai Lama, get credit with the wingnut right for pissing off China, neuter the possibility of UN sanctions slowing down the decider while also giving the wingnut right more ammunition in the never-ending crusade to further weaken international organizations (no doubt Oil for Food will re-emerge as a blogosphere chant).
A bellicose China torpedoing sanctions in the UN isn’t a bad thing to these guys- it is a feature. It would mean the only thing in between Bush and his desire to attack Iran, should he have one, is the Democrats. And I think we all know how that would end.
If you are familiar with the Bush policy of “Doing Whatever the Fuck We Want,” it makes perfect sense. These folks do a lot of things that have such disastrous outcomes that it is easy to just call them stupid, but they really aren’t. They are merely indifferent to the repercussions of their behavior.
Dug Jay
Another scintillating and cracking-good analysis from our distinguished Host! We can only hope that he’s right.
jcricket
We’re all gonna DIEEEEE!
Jen Clark
It’s strange to call them stupid when they have accomplished more destruction of the Constitution for their own benefit with absolutely no repercussions for anyone involved than anyone other President could have dreamed of.
But I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that “they are merely indifferent to the repercussions of their behavior.” They have priorities we don’t understand. Therefore, we can’t know if these repercussions aren’t exactly what they were aiming for.
whippoorwill
It’s the only thing there competent at–understanding how to wield power within the Amercian system of government. Of course wielding power should also require some meaningful objective be achieved. And there they have no idea what they’re doing.
So it’s blow it up and hope for the best. If things don’t look good right now then it’s perfectly proper to believe things will sort themselves out in 30 or 40 years. Besides, they’ve always got the dems to blame.
Tsulagi
Just what we’d need. Our deaf, dumb, and blind Commander Guy at the helm of another adventure.
Jon H
Not to mention Bush probably got a hard-on at the idea of using a photo-op with a Nobel Peace Prize winner to grease the skids of war.
Jake
Hmmm. You don’t think bombs falling on Iran would send tons of angry people fleeing into the bordering countries (ie the ones where we’ve got two wars going) do you? You don’t think the other nations in the region will get very agitated when they realize that not one, but two but three whole countries are occupied by ferriners do you? Surely they’ll remember we had a reason to go into Afghanistan and just sort of accidentally wound up in Iraq and they’ll know Iran deserved it for thinking of nukes. Surely no one will take it as a sign that any unwashed infidels are trying to take over the entire thing.
You could save a lot of key strokes by typing “sociopathic.”
Well, maybe Cheney’s masters in the Royal House of Saud will decide they really don’t want the noise and bother of another war in the neighborhood and put the kibosh on the Deciderator’s plottergizing.
Jon H
“These folks do a lot of things that have such disastrous outcomes that it is easy to just call them stupid, but they really aren’t. ”
Some of them are. Some of them aren’t.
Jon H
“Well, maybe Cheney’s masters in the Royal House of Saud will decide they really don’t want the noise and bother of another war in the neighborhood and put the kibosh on the Deciderator’s plottergizing.”
If anything, a war with Iran will be, in part, a war at the Saudi’s bidding: “You made this mess, George, now you *will* clean it up and put Iran in its place.” .
Jake
OT: If you bet former PM Bhutto’s return to Pakistan would take place without incident…Sorry.
whippoorwill
If Bush bombs Iran, we won’t be talking about Al Quaida maybe hitting us here in the US. We’ll be talking about the 5 terrorist attacks that happened last week in LA and NYC, from the dozens, if not hundreds, of Hezbollah sleeper cells that have been here way before Al Quaida existed.
Phoenician in a time of Romans
And if you don’t get tough sanctions, sanctions actually with some teeth, that takes a big weapon off the table and makes the possibility—I stress possibility—of war more likely, Anderson.
I love the way the idea of war is framed as, you know, a passive process. Just one of these things that happens, you know? Just an unfortunate series of events.
Let’s stress that agin – “war” in this case means the President decided to launch an aggressive war against a country that is not an immediate threat and (indeed) has shown few signs of seeking to become an actual threat. Your President, your government and your country will be – what’s the word again – aggressors.
Everybody knows this. So why is the media using the passive voice?
matt
OT: John, are we ever going to get a review of No End In Sight?
Jon H
“from the dozens, if not hundreds, of Hezbollah sleeper cells that have been here way before Al Quaida existed.”
This is America. By now, they’re so fat nobody makes an explosive belt in their size. By now, they’re so fat they can’t suicide-bomb a bus because they’d have to be transported by themselves in one of those little handicapped vans. By now, they’re quite possibly gay.
Zifnab
That’s like saying, “How stupid could he be? He just burned down a city block, no one could put out the fire, and the cops didn’t arrest him or nothin.”
If a vandal spray paints your house and the police refuse to catch and arrest him, is it because the vandal is so incredibly smart or the policemen are so pathetically corrupt/lazy/foolish? If a bunch of thugs break into every jewelry store in town, one after the other, consistently, day after day, and no one bars their windows or hides their wares or camps out in their stores with shotguns, is it because the thugs are a pack of master criminals? Or is it because the shopkeepers clearly just don’t care about their merchandise?
Republicans haven’t done anything particularly clever since the Clinton Impeachment. Bald-faced lies and bullying people in local elections aren’t “smart” or “clever”. No more than bombing the fuck out of Bagdad and chanting “Shock and Awe” is some sort of genius military strategy. People just swallow it because they’re dumber than the messenger.
whippoorwill
Ahaa, Teh Fat Gay Jihadi.
Suicide vest won’t fit, no problemo, one strategically deployed cork and lots of greasy fried goat. EL KABOOM!
Dennis-SGMM
I have no doubt that a Bush war in Iran will be just as successful as his war in Iraq.
On the other hand, because it’s the most insanely stupid thing he can do at the moment…
binzinerator
Amazing. Did you ever hear before of a President talking about World War III to the nation? Not as an off-mike joke but as if it were a decision we are faced with? And — my God — the bastard even put it in the context of a false dilemma.
And NO ONE in the media said fucking boo about this?
What kind of response is “diplomatic fronts got a whole lot more confusing”?
We have a President willing to 1) recklessly talk about WWIII, 2) to scare and bully the shit out of people to get them to jump into another war 3) to lie about something of that magnitude by phrasing it as a bogus choice.
This is the exact same thing he did with Iraq. The consequences of which he refuses to take any responsibility for.
We have a rogue president. He wants war simply because he thinks he can. The depth of that his deceit and his willful recklessness stuns me. And his lack of concern for the consequences of his actions and his lack of empathy for the people who suffer those consequences frighten me.
I agree with the commenter above. It’s called sociopathy.
Harvard psychologist Martha Stout, Ph.D. once said in an interview that sociopaths are “people who have exhibited symptoms such as extreme chronic deceitfulness, lack of remorse, lack of personal responsibility, and a general desire to control people and make them jump…. ”
“If you have a boss who likes to ridicule people and make them jump and seems to get a kick out if it, that’s more likely to be sociopathy. It’s motivation.”
She noted, however, that deceit is a central behavior of sociopathy.
She also noted that sociopaths don’t question their lack of empathy for others or their “dark side”. These are not concerns a sociopath would have. In other words, sociopaths feel just fine about themselves.
If you’ve ever wondered how on God’s green earth Bush could do what he has done and remain convinced he’s right, lie over and over again, proclaim he’s a ‘man of faith’, say over and over again we don’t torture, I think the above provides a hint how he does it.
George W. Bush. Sociopath on the warpath.
Wilfred
and:
Say what? Any murder of Iranians will be done at Israel’s bidding, not Saudi Arabia’s. Deflecting attention to Saudi reeks of Aipac megaphone crap – thanks for the heads-up.
Peter Johnson
Oil for Food was truly a digrace:
This scandal alone is reason enough to dismantle the UN once and for all.
The Populist
Wow…you are a dupe for the right aren’t you?
This President is talking about starting a war that will make this country the most hated around, sanctioned, broke and a lot less free yet you sit here stressing about the UN and the Oil for Food program.
I used to be a bigtime Republican, not anymore and it’s sad this is your only comment regarding the President’s comments?
Wow.
rawshark
In the minds of simple folk maybe but not for anyone else.
The Populist
Binz, not only that but have you ever seen a President giggling and smirking as he TALKED about a situation that could drag ALL of us down?
Bush is truly certifiable. I’ve not been a big fan for impeachment but if this year’s election brings in more free thinkers, I would hope they won’t dawdle.
The Populist
It’s time America say no to this wacked “conservative” agenda. THese people ARE NOT conservatives and they need to be told NO.
whippoorwill
Probably not, Johnson. But we are working hard around here to dismantle the ultra-corrupt republican party.
Peter Johnson
Right…getting mad about someone stealing twenty billion makes a whack. And you guys whining about Halliburton overcharging for a few million makes you responsible citizens.
Save me the tears about Blackwater while you’re at it. At least they do their jobs, unlike UN Peacekeepers.
magisterludi
Since the Iraqis inked a deal with Iran and China on power plant construction in Sadr City and Basra, with Iran providing a lot of freebies, I don’t think the Shia in Iraq will look too kindly on us blasting away at their brethren.
This might make the TPP (tiny penis party) pleased as punch to play schoolyard bully, but our troops will be sitting ducks for retribution and the blame will be on said party and their sadistic ringleaders.
The Populist
Whip,
You have my support. Too many Johnsons around defending a corrupt party.
I hope to God that the GOP loses more seats this year. It’s about time we get more people in place to say NO, once and for all.
Zifnab
So, pie? Anyone?
The Populist
Peter, they overcharged a FEW BILLION. Please get the facts straight.
I bet you hate the idea of tax dollars helping poor kids but could care less about being overcharged by defense contractors.
Sorry, Blackwater isn’t doing their jobs and the crimes they commit reflect on ALL of us. If you dislike the UN, that’s your schtick…whatever…keep listening to Rush. I don’t love the UN, but guess what? Invading other country’s sovereignty is NOT something the founding fathers would have ever endorsed.
The UN? Well, I dunno. Last time I checked they didn’t mow down innocent civilians in the name of liberty.
The Populist
How come the GOP apologists (aka Party firsters) don’t get as upset about Halliburton and other contractors overcharging them for their “work” in Iraq and other places? They sure get worked up over everything else that has the words “tax dollars” attached.
So it’s okay to enrich the elitists (yes, they are elitists since they had no-bid contracts) while they take tax dollars without any kind of accounting in place but God forbid we want to tax cigarettes to help poor kids and families.
Man, the world has truly become a bizarre place. Ethics have been shoved out the window.
Dennis-SGMM
Oil for Food was truly a digrace:
You’re right: a three-year-old Op-Ed by William Safire is more than enough grounds to dismantle the UN. Bill was only 75 then and at the top of his form. Any ex-speechwriter for Richard Nixon clearly knows the ins and outs of good governance. Bill was also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by George W. Bush, putting him into the distinguished company of George Tenet, Tommy Franks and L. Paul Bremer.
Never forget: the Black Helicopters won’t find you as long as you keep wearing your tinfoil hat.
The Populist
BTW Peter – I am a responsible citizen. My first love is the constitution…parties don’t interest me.
Dogma and all that other crap don’t interest me.
Listening to talk radio fools who spout out a party line don’t interest me whatsoever.
What interests me is holding those responsible. If we throw responsibility and dissent out, all that does is usher in questionable ethics and a population of sheep.
Sorry, bud…Barry Goldwater taught me better than that.
The Populist
Amen, Dennis, Amen.
rawshark
Same reason they don’t get upset when Mukasey says essentially the same thing as Durbin. Cognitive dissonance. Or doublethink if you prefer Orwellian terms to sciency words.
Dennis-SGMM
The manifest success of US contractors in Iraq is highlighted by the Iraqi government’s contracting with Iran and China to have electrical generating plants built. This after we threw billions at Halliburton to rebuild the Iraqi infrastructure.
The Republican Party: making Iraq safe for China and Iran.
The Populist
Dennis,
Shhh, those facts will confuse the righties. They can’t get past their beat up flags (from flying them on their SUVs) and love of Bush to realize that Halliburton hasn’t done much for those billions we’ve given them.
MikeF
No, John Cole, everything they started was absolutely calculated for certain effects. The fact is, they don’t believe in democracy itself. It is a religion with them, literally, in that they view democracy as an aberration, and want to get back to a more Biblically based system of the king ruling in God’s name. If you look at everything they have done in totality and keep in mind the goal of destroying the democracy in all but name while converting it to a monarchical theocracy, then it all makes perfect sense.
Think about it. They have tried to increase Presidential power while doing exactly the opposite of what you would do to keep a democracy going. This has been going on for many years now, quietly.
Take away education. Check.
Take away any social safety net. Check.
Change the voting systems so they can be easily manipulated without anyone knowing. Check.
Keep people fat dumb and happy. Check.
Fill the bureaucracy and judiciary with like minded people whose only aim is to destroy the govt from within.
and on and on. History is ripe with examples. This is not a conspiracy theory as such, as it is not a group of people in a smoke filled room making decisions like the Illuminati, but rather a shared goal where they all work in the general direction and the combined effects are enormous.
Zifnab
That’s an excellent question. Perhaps because those that do the talking – Rush, Malkin, Hewt, et al – never read those offenses off on their list of talking points. Perhaps because those that do the listening – Red Staters, Riehlists, FAUX News adherents – are constantly assured that Republican contractors never do anything wrong and all suggestions to the contrary come from a deep liberal conspiracy.
Or maybe conservatives don’t give two farts about big government so long as its their big government.
chopper
even if it was 20 billion, we’ve lost that much in iraq many times over. don’t see you pissin up a storm about that.
mote, beam, etc etc.
vetiver
They were careless people, Tom and Daisy–they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made.
From The Great Gatsby, published in 1925.
The Other Steve
That’s just because we didn’t pay Halliburton enough.
Mont D. Law
I keep hoping Christopher Walken will show up before you people actually manage to beget the apocalypse.
28 Percent
If George W. Bush starts a big war as you say it will only be all your fault for not starting a little war first. That is logic maybe you should try it. Now if China keeps us from getting sanctions we will have no choice but to go to war but that is ok because sanctions would not work anyway they never do so there is no choice. But if China and Russia do not get on board like good team players then we will have to ask whether maybe they have WMDs and then go to war with them and that will be a land war in Asia and it is not our fault we had no choice. That is ok though the spartans were always going to war and look at what great shape they were in they all looked like movie stars.
whippoorwill
And 28 percenter provides today’s lesson in wingnut logic.
grumpy realist
And has said….does anyone think that the US economy would survive an attack on Iran?
Given that few comments by Turkey was sufficient to send oil futures above $88/bbl….
Anyone want to guess how high oil prices will go with George’s NEXT Excellent Little Adventure?
Helloooo? Anyone here with two brain cells in the gov’t?
srv
GW is just playing the bad boy. He doesn’t have to bomb Iran.
Hillary or Mitt will do that later and will have Hu and Putin swooning to help. Rudy would have to have Condi as VP to pull that off.
The playbook for the next presidency has already been written. We just don’t know who the Quarterback is going to be.
LITBMueller
Nah, Hezbollah is a nationalist, anti-Israel organization much more than an anti-West/US organization.
What we WILL see is oil go skyrocketing, and everything from gas to the price of bread go up, while the housing market and finance industry collapse.
Then, maybe for good measure, China will decide to finish us off by cashing in all of our bonds they have now.
Cyrus
Unfortunately, according to Steven King, his chance came and went in 2000.
Zifnab
I seriously doubt that. Putin and Hu have been positioning themselves defensively around Iran, in hopes of getting their political tentacles into the Iranian oil supply. China needs the gas and Russia wants to maintain an energy hegemony in the East.
The last thing either of them want is to see mushroom clouds springing up over Tehran. The entire world benefits from a stabilized Middle-East, we’re just fighting over who’s on top of the heap when it all settles.
If Soviet era tanks and Chinese rockets start popping up in Iran over the next four years, don’t be surprised.
whippoorwill
What you say is true in practical effect, in recent times.
However, Hezbollah is a creation of the Mullah’s of Iran. If we start a war with Iran, do you think their brethren in the US will sit by and drink tea? Or that the Mullah’s won’t set them loose to cause as much mayhem as they can. My comment about 5 terrorist attacks in a week was exaggerated, probably, but it is naive to think all of these people will idly sit by.
Randolph Fritz
…the whole bleedin’ planet?
I think that about sums it up.
Wilfred
Brethren, eh? Best start roundin’ up alls a dem brown mens and shippin’ off to Gitmo ‘den. An ounce of prevention…
whippoorwill
I hope your comment wasn’t in some way suggesting that I was suggesting we should round up anybody. If it wasn’t well no problem. If it was then Wilfred you can go fuck yourself!
Wilfred
(auto-redact) Oi loikes pie, me!
Listen asshole, what you mean by brethren? Co-religionists? Arabs? Lebanese Shia? Muslims in general, whatever their color? All of the above?
What comes after stating that Hezbollah’s U.S. based ‘brethren’ will make terrorism against Americans? The mere suggestion of such a thing reeks of the typical, now permanently built-in massification of Arabs and Muslims that has become invisible, even on supposedly progressive sites.
Where do you think rendition came from if not from fear that the ‘brethren’ would take action?
whippoorwill
I mean just I said earlier, Hezbollah sleeper agents that are in this country and have been for a long time. I’m against invading Iran as I was Iraq and was stating my opinion that if we invade Iran there will be consequences. Are you so stupid to think simply pointing something out is going to cause Bush to act to round up “brown” people. I’m sure they’ve thought of that already on their own and will likely do just that.
Go slither back with the nuts at dem underground, fuckface.
Wilfred
You’re trying to weasel out of what you said, and you’re violating the high standards of intertron decorum for which this site is famed.
Hezbollah sleeper agents, eh? They live. Tell me, do they have WMD? Or do they just boom out falafel and hummous farts on the subway?
chopper
i have no doubts at all that there are hezbollah in the united states. i do think that their existence is overblown a bit. however, i have no doubts at all that if we invade iran or start bombing the hell out of them, we’re going to see trouble at home.
the question is how much.
chopper
you don’t need WMD to cause major trouble in the US. a backpack full of explosives left on the NY subway is all it takes.
whippoorwill
One example. I could provide more but I doubt it would convince your fevered mind.
Wilfred
Ok, here’s a question for both of you. Believing that Hezbollah sleeper agents will engage in terrorism if, and presumably only if, the Unites States attacks Iran what would you do in the event that actually happens? Possiblities.
a) increase FISA surveillance on Arabs/Muslims/Kareem Abdul Jabbar, et al. since you don’t know who these sleeper agents actually are.
b) arrest and waterboard the most probable suspects since they are sure to blow up the fucking D train if you don’t
c) do nothing.
I’m probably leaving some out but you get the drift. Seems like you are both making the case for preemptive strikes against Arabs/Muslims since you certainly can’t prevent Bush from attacking Iran. Again, if you really believe what you say is true, what would you do to protect the Homeland?
whippoorwill
Wilfred,
I think you need to take your anger at republican mindsets to a wingnut site. I would suggest maybe Redstate or Powerline. I’m a liberal person who is against any kind of torture and spying in the US without valid constitutional warrants.
And your right Chopper, nobody knows how much which could be hardly any.
Zifnab
Just out of interest, are these Lebenese Hezbollah operatives in any way related to the guys who wanted to blow up the Sears Tower from Miami using only their Kung-Fu? Were they the evil insurgents who planned to sell Jose Padilla a dirty bomb? Are they armed and dangerous, or are they just “under suspicion”, kinda like the House Representative from Michigan’s 7th District Kieth Ellison?
Did they raise the terror alert to “Hook’m Horns” Orange yet? Not that I’m not totally scared shitless by the idea that evil terrorists walk amongst us, waiting to reign down death and destruction at a word from their Iranian High Commanders, but don’t you think that maybe you’re overreacting somewhat?
Wilfred
Ah, spoof.
whippoorwill
Zifnab
You left out the arch the ace Jihadi who was going to going to bring down the Brooklyn Bridge. All your examples are from knucklehead Al Quaida wanna bes . Which is likely all the presence AQ qaida in the US.
I already said my first post was an exaggeration, probably.
I’m just saying Hezbollah is different and the possibility of attacks by them, IF we invade Iraq , is real. Jesus, I thought this was common knowledge when I mentioned it. And I get attacked like I’m GWB trolling on BJ.
And this part of your comment is just a smartass remark that seems aimed at picking a fight.
chopper
are you high on goofballs or somethin? i’m just pointing out that there’s some hezbollah in the us, and that if we attack iran we’re likely to see some kind of fallout from them. dunno how much.
how the hell did you get “preemptive strikes against arabs and muslims” from that?
whippoorwill
The mother ship is calling for you Wilfred, time for your shot.
Zifnab
It’s not AQ and Hezbollah I’m differentiating against. Your “source” is what I find so questionable. We’ve seen dozens of false alarms and phoney threats over the last seven years, all stemming from Republican political opps posing as people who know how to do their jobs.
It’s all a phantom menace. The real menaces – Hurricanes, economic disparities, poisoned food and toys from China, global warming, deadly pharmaceuticals – are being overlooked. How many people are likely to die from a Hezbollah terror attack, whippoorwill? Now compare that to the number of dead from Katrina. Or the number of people thrown into the hospital from poisoned spinach or lead-painted toys. Or the number of people crippled by Vioxx, because the FDA dropped the ball.
You’re alot more likely to be using Vioxx than you are to ever met a terrorist. So why are you pissing yourself about Hezbollah when the real threats are sitting on your local Eckard’s countertop?
The Populist
China might cash us out but if we attack Iran, their holdings will be worthless. You see, the dollar will be dead the day we commence bombing.
What the righties like Peter seem to ignore is that he is propping up his little worthless party at his own expense. He buys into the drumbeat of war because the UN is much worse in his opinion. He sees we can do no wrong because Fox says so. Rush thinks we are the kings of the world, so he happily marches to that beat.
What puzzles me is how he’ll sell his children’s future (that is if he has any) for some bizarre reassurance that Bush can do no wrong. The party will control him and keep him honest (yeah right). He thinks his ideology and hatred of “liberal” ideals makes him righteous, makes him part of the club.
Problem is the “club” doesn’t want anything to do with his ilk. If he isn’t a backroom dealer, he is nothing. Therefore, he is selling out his own economic well being for some bizarre notion that attacking sovereign countries will make us greater.
Sure worked out for the Soviets, eh? What about Rome? England? Nazi Germany? Japan? Persia? Mesopotamia?
Why these people will throw their lot in with folks who borrow more money than can be paid back all for wars and crony capitalism? What does he get out of this? Nothing…
I could go on and on…
The Populist
Chopper is right…
Look at L.A. & NYC…there are MANY Iranian ex-pats. Who’s to say that a few of them aren’t here to keep an eye on the dissidents? Who’s to say that some have marching orders that if Iran is attacked to go wild?
Canada has many as well. Who’s to say their orders aren’t to infiltrate the U.S. and attack should the order come down?
I have no doubts they have cells here just as AQ does. Anybody who thinks otherwise is in some denial.
The Populist
BTW – I am by no means advocating spying on Iranian ex-pats…I believe selling liberty for a false sense of security goes against every freedom loving bone in my body.
whippoorwill
Do you mean to say pissing “on” myself. That’s very funny Zifnab. In relation to what I’ve ACTUALLY said, your argument making comparisons to all sorts of other issues is irrelevant and nonsense.
Your making an argument against a wingnut viewpoint. I’ve been posting here for a month or two now, do you think I’m an wingnut Zifnab. If you do, then your arguments may be relevant in your own mind and we can a fight, although I’d rather fight with wingnuts. And if you don’t, then I’ll suggest the same for you as I did Wilfred, go argue with Redstaters or Assrocket.
28 Percent
China had better watch there step and not block UN sanctions if they do there will be no way to keep the world safe except to bomb Iran. If they cash in their bonds they will ruin the world economy and it will be all there fault there is nothing we can do to stop it. They will be hurt worse than we are but maybe they just have to learn that CHOICES HAVE CONSEQUENCES.
liberal
LITBMueller wrote,
Agreed.
whippoorwill wrote,
But Hezb. probably hasn’t put much (or any) effort into placing sleeper cells in the US. And AFAICT that kind of stuff can’t be set up overnight.
I think it’s much more likely that Iran would respond by attempting to shut down the Gulf. Some people have commented (not here necessarily) that Iran wouldn’t do that because they’d be harming uninvolved parties whose goodwill they need, but I don’t buy that. IMHO their attitude would be “you guys sat around while the US bombed us in clear violation of the UN Charter.”
LITBMueller
Well, I guess I’m in denial, then, because there has been absolutely no evidence of Hezbollah sleeper cells in the US since DoJ and Canadian law enforcement started talking about the possibility back in the summer of 2006 when Israel started bombing Lebanon. There was a lot of supposition, but no evidence. In fact, the only people in any way connected with Hezbollah that have been arrested in the US and Canada are people that were doing fundraising here.
In some ways, Hezbollah can be seen as operating as the same way as the PIRA during the heyday of the Troubles (no offense to the Irish! :)) – they are a nationalistic organization that get support from other governments (Iran in the case of Hezbollah, Libya in the case of PIRA) and do fundraising here.
Plus, Hezbollah would have to be suicidal as an organization if they were set up sleeper cells here, and then carry out terrorist attacks here after any strike on Iran. The US (and Israeli?) response would be swift, and they’d quickly find themselves sharing caves with the Taliban.
Also, they’re not the same sort of extremists as AQ – they have shown a sort of practicality (for a terrorist organization), with a political wing and social services in Lebanon for example, and they ended suicide attacks in Israel after the Israelis pulled out of Lebanon.
So, Hezbollah a sleeper cell attacks on the Mall of America after a bombing of the Quds force is anything but a foregone conclusion.
But, the economic havoc such an attack would create is.
Cain
I’m also pretty skeptical about Hezbollah sleeper cells. Putting in a sleeper cell requires in my mind some long range plan to infiltrate the U.S. to formulate chaos. But Iran and others would never have known that Bush would have attacked Iraq in response to 911 and then be aggressive towards Iran. I can’t imagine Hezbollah that organized.
Besides, the U.S. has no credibility in attacking anyone. Unless Congress does something very foolish, he’ll never get authorization to strike Iran. The administration has lost all credibility with just about everyone. If they do strike Iran it would be done incompetently and our economy would tank even more. We’d self destruct, there wouldn’t be any need for sleeper cells to do formulate chaoas, we’d already be knee deep in it.
cain
srv
Russia was doing deals with Iraq right up until the bombs started falling.
Iran is a proxy war with China, but they’ll probably be forced to do the “realist” thing to stop our mushroom clouds from springing up. Hillary, Mitt and Rudy are completely onboard with a showdown.
I think you missed who’s been arming Iran already. But it won’t matter. What do you think would be a bigger problem for China? Not being in the drivers seat for Iranian oil, or a US carrier sunk by a Sunburn?
Zifnab
Honestly? At the moment? If a US carrier got sunk by a Sunborn torpedo, we’d just end up bombing Iran harder and never give China a second glance.
However, you’re right. It’s not like US firms haven’t been arms-dealing with Iran right up till the present day. Still, China would be happy to run the US military through yet another Middle Eastern meat grinder.
srv
Before the GWoT got in the way, the neocons were writing about how we needed to start a war with China sooner rather than later. If I thought they were really that bright, one might think that the best way to limit any threats to the Hyperpower would be to be sitting on top of any threats oil supply. Everything else is just a charade.
From that perspective, $250B/year and 100K+ troops is pretty cheap.
Peter Johnson
Example? I’ve never heard anyone say we should go to war with China.
Peter Johnson
Think again.
liberal
Peter Johnson quoted,
But that says that Hezbullah targets Israel and Israeli-linked targets, not US targets.
Zifnab
The Jerusalem Post? David Horovitz’s Jerusalem Post? The same David Horovitz who sponsors Islamofascist Awareness Week? The guy who wet himself when he heard the Iranian President was to speak at Columbia University?
Yeah, I can totally see why he’s got his knickers in a twist.
liberal
Peter Johnson bithered,
Have you heard of Google?
James Fallows::
Francis Fukuyama (according to Matthew Yglesias):
Zifnab
Google-fied!
Chris Johnson
I don’t like this post. It gets people posting spoofs (28% cites Princess Bride and 300) and I’m not liking it because we’ve got people that twisted out there who aren’t joking, and because this big of a mess really isn’t funny.
The only consolation is that we’re already in such a mess that we CANNOT do such a thing. That’s the saving grace of having batshit insane leaders: by the time they are ready to really push the limits of how evil you can be (note I don’t say ‘turn evil’ because they already are), their hubris has led them to a place where they will fail in their larger evil.
All they’ll do is destroy THIS country, most notably by plunging us into poverty, starvation, chaos. More and more I think we deserve that. As a good little american I’ll be plugging away anyhow- trying to run my business (I am an intellectual property exporter- build software for sale worldwide), donating spare food to the local food shelf, trying to help out local guys who are trying to quit drugs and drink.
I would remind the rest of the world that not all us Americans are batshit insane, or evil. However, we are being held responsible for singlehandedly stopping an extraordinarily ruthless and sociopathic group of people. We failed to come up with the common sense and the will to avoid horrible actions after 9/11, because we lost our minds and panicked. At this point something like 70% of us are against more and continued war, so if it is done anyway, you’ll just have to conclude we have a rogue government that doesn’t represent the populace.
Which is kind of like ‘no shit, Sherlock’, except that our media is tightly controlled like a banana republic to put out the idea that the people DID vote Bush in, that they do approve of all this, etc. You can’t go by that, sorry. You’ll just have to conclude that by the same token, our _corporations_ don’t represent the will of the people either.
So exhausting, facing up to this stuff. You just want to crawl off and die. It’s not funny at all. I can see why so many people want desperately to believe anything they are told that is more upbeat. That’s why it works for so long, while your country is subverted. Easy lies.
The Populist
So Lynne Cheney wants war with China? Hmmmm….
Where would she propose we get the troops for such an endeavor?
Funniest yet is her husband’s free trade deals with that country have made them what they are today.
What clowns these people are.
Oh and Peter Johnson, many righties needed an enemy or boogeyman when Bush came to office. China was one they tried very hard to make the case for.
Face it, your beloved party loves to have boogeymen since you have no concept of debate and diplomacy.
srv
Not to cheer you up or anything, but it’s always darkest just before it goes pitch black.
As far as I’m concerned, if Obama or Paul don’t win, it’s over.
But it was a decent run. 1776-2001. RIP.
Zifnab
Did they give up after the Articles of the Confederation failed? No!
Did they turn tail and run when the British sacked Washington in the War of 1812? No!
Did they abandon ship after South Carolina fired on Fort Sumter? No!
Did they turn tail in the middle of the Great Depression? No!
Did they surrender when McCarthy lossed his witch trials on the American public? No!
Did they toss in the towel after the third season of The Simple Life? Maybe a little!
But the important thing to remember is that America has been fucking up for over 250 years, and we’re still the biggest bad-ass in world kinda-sorta. I mean, we’ve got American Idol, right? And nukes? That’s gotta count for something. And, seriously, how much worse could it possibly get? This has got to be absolutely, positively rock bottom. I’m just sure of it. :-p
Well, I tried.
srv
If the last few years have shown anything, it’s that fear knows no bounds.
Never before have so many been afraid of so little.
Peter Johnson
So it’s okay as long as they just get kill Israelis? You’ve hanging out with Walt and Mearsheimer, I see.
DougJ
Never confuse that which is not funny with that which we should not joke about. Stephen Colbert and John Stewart have done more for the discourse in this country than anyone else, with the possible exceptions of Josh Marshall and Paul Krugman (both of whom are a bit jokey themselves).
There’s nothing funny about the increasing likelihood that we are about to plunge into late Rome-style bread and circus fascism. It’s terrifying and horrible and anyone who cares about mankind should do everything they can to stop it.
I’m afraid that one of the most effective things for us to do is to tell jokes about it. Yes, we should all canvass for candidates and writer our Congressmen too. But turning the demise of society into a humorous spectacle that entertains people might just be the best way to shine a light on what is happening.
Hey, I wish we could just go around explaining to people how fucked up things are, that we are ruled by right-wing war-mongering lunatics who are propped up by corrupt/senile Georgetown pseudojournalists. But that doesn’t work. Believe me, I’ve tried.
As far as getting out point across goes, humor seems to be the best weapon. Olbermann, Stewart, and Colbert are the only three people on television I listen to.
The Populist
So it’s okay as long as they just get kill Israelis? You’ve hanging out with Walt and Mearsheimer, I see.
Peter Johnson, why are you attributing such nonsense to that poster?
I know, you can’t answer and I personally am fine with that (you folks love your talking points!) but do NOT play the right wing misinterpretation/obfuscation game, mmmmkay?
Li
I might add Dodd into that short list, but Paul and Obama seem to be honest, and devoted to what this country actually stands for, albeit from different perspectives. The fact that the media either ignores or derides them shows their complicity in this fiasco.
In a way, you have to hand it to them, their plan to take over the nation by infiltrating or buying up all of the media companies and smearing anyone who didn’t play along was brilliant. Then, this quasi-fascist movement made their most clever move by painting the MSM as their enemy. By doing this they were able to simultaneously neuter the journalists themselves (already emasculated by their bosses) while creating an environment in which nothing could be trusted and any fact could be cast aside as ‘media bias’ or some other fantasy. This, combined with the radio talkers spewing constant lies and fear, created an environment in which the Big Lie could be told.
As always with these plans of reckless ambition, it was sold as an existential threat. Most of us know how little their actions have to do with the threat, and frankly those keystone creeps can’t even drive a flaming van into an airport anymore. Now, onto Iran, and there doesn’t seem to be any stopping them; the creeping coup was a success before we even knew it was happening. The only comfort is that this bombastic move is self-defeating, and they are so deluded by their fantasies of invincibility that they can’t see that. Let’s hope and pray it ends with an economic crash, rather than a nuclear exchange.
DougJ
The word you’re looking for is “shameless” not “brilliant.” It’s a fascist technique as old as time.
I’m sure we can find some nut in ancient Babylon who made a lot of money on his club and cudgel factory by bribing the town scribes into writing about the Assyrian menace and smearing everyone who disagreed as anti-Babylonian.
Li
No, the word I wanted was ‘brilliant’. Shameless does apply to them, yes, in spades, but the plan itself was very clever. It’s good that they aren’t as clever at governing as they are at grasping greedily at power and wealth, or the American people would be in straits far more dire.
DougJ
I really don’t think the plan was that clever. I think anyone who spent a day reading some combination of Lenin, Goering, and Goebells would have come up with it.
DougJ
It’s kind of like saying that kicking the other guy in the balls and gouging his eyes is a “brilliant” street-fighting technique.
jcricket
Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
No!
Now who’s with me.
srv
Nothing would be more entertaining than seeing a wave of Colberts going all Tony Montana.
incontrolados
Capitan says, ‘yarh!’
Did I already make an ass of myself on this thread? No?
How can a grown man, much less a grandfather, call himself Captain Ed (without being a captain of anything)? And then go on to be respected? I don’t get it.
incontrolados
Looks like Moyers is looking into Blackwater. Should be interesting.
Chris Johnson
It’s not brilliant because they’re not trying to do anything practical or even possible. They’re gunning for Total Empire at home and abroad, but the trouble is our military will break. It’s a claymore being used as a sledgehammer- it will become useless. Same with the corporations being given special privileges and encouraged to basically loot the economy- when it collapses, only a few people in these corporations will cash out and run, the rest will go splat like Enron rank and file.
I don’t call a few people pillaging and wrecking freakin’ CIVILIZATION ‘brilliant’. Brilliant would be if their wild ideas were plausible: if you could have, say, a sustainable robber-baron empire or a workable ‘New American Century’ (points for not specifying a THOUSAND years, somebody has half a clue about history).
But you don’t, because you can’t- it’s a pipe dream.
So here we are.
TenguPhule
Commander in Chief Frank-N-Furter.
TenguPhule
I look on the bright side, those in power who did this are not going to escape it.
The wheel of Karmic Irony grinds slow but fine.
Peter Johnson
Gee, I’m sure that will be a fair look. Why didn’t they just get Michael Moore to do it?
Cain
Well sure, they got sleeper cells for Israel they’ve organized themselves against them, that’s why they exist. They have a long range plan for those guys. They’ve been around for what? 30 years or something? Plenty of time to work on nefarious sleeper type cells. My point still stands.
cain
liberal
Peter Johnson wrote,
Huh? I’m saying that the claims in the quoted article don’t bear on the question of whether Hezbollah has sleeper cells in the US.
But you go ahead and keep on committing logical fallacies.
jcricket
You’re forgetting the other heroes of the right-wing whine-o-sphere: Hindrocket, The Big Trunk and whatever the other douche-bag called himself on Powerline. And at least one of those guys is a lawyer.
Seriously.
Cain
Man, why is everything some kind of allusion to “ass”? Assrocket, Hindrocket, Big Trunk… How can you take any of this stuff serious? They’re sites that shoot blanks from their ass.
Must be a busy weekend for Cole and Tim. I’m not getting my Balloon-Juice fix. I think I’m going into withrdrawal. On the other hand I have a midterm to study for..
cain
jcricket
To be fair, Assrocket and Hindrocket are the same person (Hindrocket being the nickname he actually gave himself, and Assrocket being the obvious mocking of said nickname). So there’s only really two idiotic ass-related nicknames two authors of the Time Magazine’s “Blog of the Year” gave themselves.
But I digress. What’s more important is to start spreading the reality that the right-wing blogosphere is made up of some serious self-hating homos (see Drudge, for one).
Oh, almost forgot the doughy pantload (Jonah Goldberg). Not that he calls himself that. But he should.
TenguPhule
Shorter Dick Prick: Blackwater good. Democrats Bad! Change my Diaper!
The Populist
Gee, I’m sure that will be a fair look. Why didn’t they just get Michael Moore to do it?
If Moore did it, I’d at least be entertained. As for Moyers, I take a lot of what he says much more seriously than your hero Rush or Brit Hume.
You folks need to realize your media (there is no liberal media dude) is as unfair as anything I’ve seen in my lifetime.
God I hate partisans who can’t say anything objective or fair.
The Populist
Liberal,
He’s a partisan who only listens to one side of the story.
Tax Analyst
It ought to be boggling that someone who thinks they are making intelligent arguments can’t tell the difference between Bill Moyers and Michael Moore – but considering the source, it’s not.
Hey Peter, have yourself a Nice Day over there in your Bizarro World, OK?
The Populist
Amen Tax Analyst,
I guess since Bill Moyers doesn’t spew venom and one sided right wing friendly invective, he must be equal to Michael Moore.
I am no fan of Moore’s but he is entertaining if you take him with a grain of salt. Sometimes he hits the nail on the head but a lot of times he’s no different than any partisan shill that somebody like Peter loves so much.
Toots
Check out what the WP’s Glenn Kessler said about Bush’s soul seeing talents. This is a rather large story that no one seems to have picked up on.
http://www.btcnews.com/btcnews/1752