I really want to believe widely linked stories such as this Michael Yon piece:
All describe the bizarro-world contrast between what most Americans seem to think is happening in Iraq versus what is really happening in Iraq. Knowing this disconnect exists and experiencing it directly are two separate matters. It’s like the difference between holding the remote control during the telecast of a volcanic eruption on some distant island (and then flipping the channel), versus running for survival from a wretch of molten lava that just engulfed your car.
I was at home in the United States just one day before the magnitude hit me like vertigo: America seems to be under a glass dome which allows few hard facts from the field to filter in unless they are attached to a string of false assumptions. Considering that my trip home coincided with General Petraeus’ testimony before the US Congress, when media interest in the war was (I’m told) unusually concentrated, it’s a wonder my eardrums didn’t burst on the trip back to Iraq. In places like Singapore, Indonesia, and Britain people hardly seemed to notice that success is being achieved in Iraq, while in the United States, Britney was competing for airtime with O.J. in one of the saddest sideshows on Earth.
But then I scroll down Memorandum, where I read the RiverBendBlog write about that bastion of domestic tranquility, SYRIA, which she fled to to escape from the horrors of Iraq. I believe that is the same Syria that warbloggers were getting excited about bombing a few weeks ago.
So, yeah. Sorry I don’t share the same optimism as the folks who have been optimistic (and, more often than not, wrong) all along. I will know we have turned the corner when I see it, not when Michael Ledeen waxes nostalgic about it in the National Review.
Call me crazy.
Riverbend is a she, Sunni, maybe Ba’ath party, forced out of Baghdad by ethnic cleansing.
Yon is a hack propagandist who has learned nothing about Arabs or Muslim or the sense of personal honor that is part of Arabness. Simple question for him or any of his apologists: How much interaction is there between Americans and Iraqis after all this time?
They make it a wilderness and call it peace.
Indeed, we have no idea where the sun will rise today, based solely upon where it rose yesterday, or last week, or even a year ago.
Pity that the 2 million plus Iraqis who have fled their country, aren’t reading Michael Yon so that they can know how truly awesome things are there now!
shorter Yon: “We’re turning the corner in Iraq!”
third verse, same as the first…
well, actually, one CAN get a pretty good idea of whether it’s likely to rain today, or at least this week, based upon historical weather patterns. I live in Arizona and I can say with some certainty that December and January are going to be wet months, since they almost always have been in the past. Likewise, I can say with some certainty that June and July are going to be very hot, even if I can’t tell you exactly what temperature it’s going to be on June 21.
Sorry about spamming the comments, but the stupidity burns!
Shorter Micheal Yon: What’s Monsoon Season?
Because anyone who expects blizzards in February just because there were blizzards in February a year ago is foolish. Anyone who anticipates Hurricanes during “Hurricane Season” is daft. And no one could have expected drought in the summer or leaves changing color in the fall without just making a lucky guess.
Thank god Yon is an Iraq Analyst and not a weatherman, or that poor guy would be out of a job.
Oh, definitely Ba’ath party, which proves she was one of Saddam’s henchmen (henchwomen?) who is just upset that she no longer is a part of that murderous regime.
John: “I will know we have turned the corner when I see it, not when Michael Ledeen waxes nostalgic about it in the National Review.”
At what point do the sheer number of corners the Yon tribe claims we have turned result in a shape that defies Euclidian geometry?
As for Michael Ledeen, why in the world are his opinions of continuing interest? For heaven’s sake, save your time and go directly the Jerusalem Post.
it’s exactly like a Mobius strip. There is only one side to it, though it has the illusion of having two sides.
We keep ‘turning the corner’ but somehow we keep ending up in the same place.
Wingnuts keep insisting if we try harder, we’ll eventually end up on the other side of the strip.
I thought we were looking for victory. Success sounds so limp-wristed and librul wishy-washy. Seems more like folks (formerly known as terrorists) have changed strategies and we’re taking credit and arming them.
I’m sure none of those folks have other motives or may change strategy again.
Bloody Librul Media, their nefarious grip has a stranglehold on the gonads of news outlets around the world. Someone unleash Michelle Mawkish!
Shorter Wingnut: Operation Infinite Escher!
*By Success Pixies one assumes. Fucking passive voice.
if by ‘success’, Yon means, ‘handing off the mess to Bush’s successor’, then I’d have to say, ‘mission accomplished.’
You can’t make a barely populated omelette without burning a few hundred thousand eggs!
I’m certain one can find many examples of tactical success. Number of ‘insurgents’ killed, manipulated statistics ‘proving’ we’re ‘winning’, and even real, actual examples of our troops routing out insurgents.
Fighting an insurgency is about winning hearts and minds, not about body counts. If fighting an insurgency was solely about killing insurgents, we’d have an embassy in South Vietnam and Algeria would still be a French dependency.
You don’t need a moebius strip to turn corners forever. Just keep turning right.
I notice that Yon’s actual factual references in that article were entirely to Basra. How is the Sunni/Shiite conflict developing in Iraq right now?
…for that matter, how about Turkey’s preparations to invade northern Iraq (rather than merely making cross-border incursions)?
That’ll be a nice situation, our ally Turkey declaring war against the Kurds, who have enjoyed US protection for some years now. And of course we need access to Incirlik.
Thanks a million, George W. Bush. So glad the ‘grownups’ who were in charge, fully thought through all the ramifications of invading Iraq. I am certain they will take the same care and thoughtfulness in preparations for any possible attack on Iran.
To me, the worst thing about this sort of thing is how Iraqis are just erased from the story. I asked Jane Arraf, who had been in Iraq from the beginning of the war, the same question I posed above and she answered zero, none. I’ve yet to read or hear of one American who was able to go to a souk in Najaf and buy red lentils or get a haircut in the barbershops near the mosque or haggle over the price of cloth or silver or do anything other than walk around hating and being hated.
To Yon, that’s success.
There are so many distortions in this piece it makes me sort of embarrassed for Yon who I have a grudging respect for.
Wow, that sounds good!
And meanwhile, that much needed political reconcilliation that the Surge was to allow for? No where mon frere.
Yon, I’m said to say, has lost it.
The Other Andrew
I’m sure the same type of people were crowing about success and “bridge-building” when we were teaming up with Saddam and Osama. You’d think that we would’ve learned long-term thinking, by now…
The Surge was necessary for there to be political reconciliation — between the RNC and the GOP base. It has given the Republican leadership, including the presidential candidates, political cover by making it look like there is a policy for Iraq other than building a permanent presence and spinning off contracts for cronies and supporters.
As such, The Surge has been quite successful.
this is what i think of when i hear we’ve “turned a corner”
…and yet, Bush is going to come back ask for 200 billion and Congress will give it to him because they are afraid of looking like they don’t support the troops.
Aside question: the Iraq supplimentals are not included in the national budget, thus not the nation debt. Correct?
I could provide the answer to this:
But this keyboard doesn’t have the Chinese characters that the answer requires.
I know they aren’t included in the end-of-year deficit report, because I don’t believe they are part of Congressional discretionary spending. However, I believe they are still counted in the National Debt which is merely the amount of money our government owes outstanding via bonds and treasury notes and whatnot.
Michael van der Galiën
Although I sympathize with her, it has to be pointed out that the ‘unity’ she longs for only existed because Iraq was ruled by a brutal dictator who persecuted, tortured and killed all opposition. Sunni Baath Party members lived comfortable lives indeed, but many others did not.
let’s not give the GOP any ideas, ok?
Yes, it’s all in the debt, all $9 trillion plus dollars of it. And therefore, you can subtract the various one year periods and see what the actual increase in the deficit was. Here’s a hint — on 1/19/2001, we were at about $5.7 trillion. So that averages out to roughly $1.3 billion in debt a day, or $492 billion in a year. At this point, our economy is pretty much a debt-backed financial scam.
I try not to discount any report from Iraq simply because it doesn’t match my current assessment. So I don’t discount positive reports even though I currently think Iraq is a huge fuckup.
Not all positive reports can be delusional. Nor can all negative reports be delusional. Those who push one or the other cannot simply dismiss the counterparts because they don’t agree.
Iraq, as even Yan says, is complicated.
The question I always come back to is this: if Iraq is a complicated is the military really the best way to solve that puzzle?
Everything old is new again. Vietnam hawks were constantly coming up with reasons why we were winning. There were the body counts, the increase in the number of Strategic Hamlets, Vietnamization, the temporary decline in violence in this province or that town, the VC who had an epiphany and joined the government forces, something was constantly proving that things were going our way at last. These pieces almost always ended by questioning the patriotism, the sanity and the motives of those who failed to accept this “proof.”
Right up to the day when people scrambled onto rooftops to catch the helicopters.
keyboard cowards? Wouldn’t that be a more apt description of the warblogging yay-hoos who steadfastly refuse to serve in The Most Important War Evah?
The Other Steve
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
But three lefts do.
One left, means someone has to share.
The Other Steve
All our troops are doing over there is acting as target practice.
How do you win a game like that?
Whenever I think about this, I imagine an Iraqi trying to gleam some profound insight about the state of affairs in our country by reading John Cole or Michelle Malkin, figuring that they’re getting some kind of Truth, just because they live here and share an opinion.
I used to put a lot of weight on what people who are actually there had to say (why wouldn’t you?) and I guess I mostly still do. But we should realize they’re really no different than any commentator anywhere else.
With the exception of the keyboard cowards at John Cole’s Balloon Juice
Mmmm. Yuh. Whatever.
If Iraq is such a fricking paradise, then why are there 1.5 million Iraqi refugees in Syria? Because they hated all the freedom they were being forced to enjoy after Saddam fell?
Why are our troops still there and still dying? Because they’re too stupid to come home when the job is done?
Oh, wait, I forgot. It’s all Sandy Berger’s fault, including the torture. Except for the part that’s Iran’s fault.
Michael van der Galiën
LOL I think they got enough inspiration from other sources…
Who ya gonna believe? Me or your lyin’ eyes?
Nah, he’s pulling from the Rove playbook on this one. I think Darrell was also found of the “If you’re so against the Iraq War, why aren’t you in the military?” line of reasoning. Then the wingnuts like to wax poetic about how its only fair that liberals get drafted, because you shouldn’t be allowed to protest against the war unless you’ve been in it… or something. The logic gets a bit fuzzy and hard to read with all the spittle on the screen.
…or your cheatin’ heart?
Living by Song Titles instead of Orwellian Double-Speak obfuscation.
“I’m so CONFUSED!” – Vinnie Barbarino (John Travolta), “Welcome Back, Kotter”
From the trackback above:
More proof that the right wing doesn’t get irony.
or…Stand by your man.
I’d lay off of the sneers at “basement dwelling commenters” if I was a winger.
if you’ve got the
moneymeme, i’ve got the time.
Is that UrbanGrounds thing the latest spoof site?
Earth to moron… Riverbend… yes, that Riverbend… She’s a… oh, nevermind. No point in repeating the obvious for illiterate partisans or spoofers.
That’s rich. But apparently Yon and other Kristol clear “thinkers” just know by looking at the weather today they can predict what it will be all next year if we continue to stay their course.
I sometimes read Yon and usually like his stuff, but the Michelle cheerleading uniform and pom poms are not his best look.
In this last dispatch he mentions he began embedding in 2004 at the request of military friends who lamented the disconnect between what was happening on the ground then and what was being reported by MSM. Okay. So I guess the certain success in 04 has just kept on building to the fevered crescendo it is today. God’s second son has shown himself and now been anointed with a fourth star to lead us to victory. Known truth.
I am so sick and tired of these idiots’ corners. We are not going to change the eventual outcome in Iraq no matter how hard they try to avoid responsibility for monumental incompetence by the admin. Even Jesus’ adopted brother had this to offer…
Warner: General, will winning in Iraq make America any safer?
Petraeus: Umm…er…well…how long do I have to come up with an answer?…gee, haven’t really thought about it.
No worries, its all Greek to me anyways.
Yon, and Petraeus himself, make the case that the Surge is showing signs of success. So is that true or does Petraeus not know what he is doing? Any commander worth his salt won’t ask for a draw down of troops at the First Sign of success. Military commanders are trained to reinforce success with more troops. Of course, the former Cheerleader and his thugs may have gotten so excited their poms poms got in the way of rational thinking. Jesus H. Christ just how stupid do these people think we are?
The air is foul with Treachery and Chicanery. Or, maybe I’m just another Treasonous sonofabitch with BDS.
This post will self destruct in 60 minutes so I can avoid wearing my flag lapel pin after criticizing a General Officer for being a politically correct ass-kisser.
Things seem to be changing, although what it actually means for the long run is hard to tell. You might think that people who’ve been predicting success around the corner for years would be a little more cautious. . . well, maybe not.
The one thing proponents of we’re turning a corner seem to me to be downplaying is that we’re getting here by giving up some of the things we were fighting for in the first place. In working with local Suni groups, we’re accepting the central government isn’t going to have a monopoly on military force, which means it isn’t going to be much of a central government. We also seem to be accepting de facto ethnic partitioning; in short it’s were surreptitiously accepting the Biden plan a fait accompli.
This may be the best we can hope for, and it may be “good” in the sense that the worst of the killing may (and I stress may) be coming to an end. That assumes the Sunni groups we’ve been working with don’t turn on the central government or on us when Al Queda in Iraq is demolished.
This is probably the best outcome we can hope for. It in no way justifies the original invasion. If the President had told us we needed to invade Iraq so that after a five year occupation we’d end up with a week central government, militias, a resurgence of fundamentalism, intercine violence at tolerable levels (not too many car bombs), ethnic cleansing, and millions of refugees at the cost of hundreds of billions of American dollars and thousands of lives, would anyone have gone for that?
So maybe things are finally turning the corner for real, but in the sense of being catastrophic to merely awful. It’s definitely a positive development if it’s true, no doubt about it, but the triumphalism on the right as though this justifies the whole enterprise is hard to take.
The Soda-straw view of reality. Even the milbloggers of the past started getting the disconnect with the big picture eventually. Most of them are very quiet now, or lack the triumphant crusaderism Yon has always had.
I posted a couple of tart, sarcastic comments at Yon’s blog.
Considering the number of approving comments there, I was curious whether Yon (or whomever the moderator is, I assume it’s him) would approve them.
He did… but he also made sure to include my email address as part of the comment, an ‘honor’ not accorded to any of the approving comments there.
I’m sure this was just a courtesy from Mr. Yon so that his fans can let me know how much they like what I had to say, and not at all a petty, vindictive, small-minded attempt to invite commenters to flame me. Because, you know, wingnuts never do that kind of thing.
Good thing I included an email address that went dead long ago.
…oh, and it says right there on his comment form that your email address is required but will not be published.
But, mine was published anyway. I’m sure it was just a simple mistake…
Oh, of course…why, it’s almost unimaginable that Mr. Yon would stoop to such a petty and pissy-assed, prick-headed act…isn’t it?
well actually, it could have been his webmaster/moderator and not Mr. Yon.
I would hope that someone who puts himself forward as a journalist would be a little more thick-skinned and professional than that. I mean, I wasn’t at all incivil, just critical and snarky.
That’s the typical wrong-winger for you, as John Cole knows all too well. They brook not the least bit of dissent, all the while proclaiming they are fighting against tyranny and for freedom.
It’s a small thing, in a certain sense – even if I had given a working email, I’m not afraid to read nasty comments from reich-wingers. Hell, I wish I had posted a working address so that I could harvest and publish the hate mail.
On the other hand, it goes straight to one’s credibility (or lack thereof) when you tell people you’re not going to publish their email address… and then do it anyway.
I have screen caps, by the way. It will be interesting to see if they attempt to remove the evidence from the comments. I posted another comment calling them out on this nonsense. Let’s see if that one gets approved.
“No thinking person would look at last year’s weather reports to judge whether it will rain today”
Coincidentally, it is Michael Yon’s vocation to piss on us and to tell us it is raining.
yeesh. Yes, it’s the job of the American media to be part of the Pentagon’s
propagandatruth-telling operation, isn’t it?
Even though quite a few journalists who’ve been over there say that, if anything, the situation in Iraq is much worse than we ever hear about.
Nothing less than complete obsequiousness and submission will satisfy them, will it?
…or Dubyah’s favorite, “My Way”.
one of the things that stood out for me in the linked Riverbend entry was “The people in the floor above us are a Christian family from northern Iraq who got chased out of their village by Peshmerga”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Kurdistan supposed to be the best hope for a pluralistic Iraqi democracy? That’s what Michael Totten and Christopher Hitchens told me.
We’ll see how peaceful Basra and its environs are if we attack Iran.
Remind me again how many Iraqis get their news from Al-Jazerra and how many get their news from CNN? Is Yon suggesting New York Times circulation in Bagdad is fueling the insurgency? That Kirkut’s relative peace is due to a high FOX News demographic?
Seriously, it begs the question that everyone needs to ask when confronted by suggestions from a war apologist. Are these people EVER right?
Are you sure you don’t mean “Steal Away”?
Could be…dunno, but it’s sure as hell not “Peace Train”.
if only Iraqis could see Fox News Channel, they’d understand how totally awesum!!!11ONE!11!!ONE!1 things are there.
Reading into the hate. Does anyone here ever give respect to anyone with an opinion on progress in Iraq. It seems that resent is the menu for anyone who speaks of such. I am quite shocked, yet amused that John would approach anyone who is a blogger that has 1000x more time on the ground at the front. You surely do make a fool of yourself and your flock.
A little help for you all. If this is the only M. Yon post you have read. Do yourself a favor and read from day one.
To Wilfred – in your misguided arrogant mind you may want to believe “Yon is a hack propagandist who has learned nothing about Arabs or Muslim or the sense of personal honor that is part of Arabness.” – but this speaks more to your ignorance than to truth about Michael.
My parents were born in Egypt,so the complex nature of the Arab personality, their language, their people, their tribal values: their retention of old values of honor, macho-ism, tribalism and pride,which stand in stark contrast to the values of freedom, individualism, equality and democracy that civilized states embrace; their love/ hate relationship towards the West, the Muslim hatred of the Coptic Christians is some Arab countries, their innate sense of fatalism ( in shallah – If God Wills it) is something I can speak to firsthand.
I spent a great deal of time in the Middle East – with few Arabs suspecting I understood Arabic – it was enlightening to hear what the average Arab thought of Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter ( effeminate paper tiger fools) what they thought of Americans, Israel and secularists ( can’t repeat the language they used).
I am one of Mike’s friends, so through me, he has come to be educated about Arabs as a whole, both good and ugly. and about the complex personality of the Iraqi Arabs.
I not only have spoken in depth to Iraqi friends of mine, but I’ve also studied the writings of Dr. Ali al Wardi — an Iraqi social psychologist and historian — all of which I’ve shared with Michael.
He has learned that the Iraqi’s are struggling against their own history of ancient tribal war: they have lived through years of constant conflict: between the Communists and Ba’athists, the revolutions, wars, and brutal totalitarian regime of Saddam Hussein which have reinforced personality attributes that they struggle daily to overcome In the 18 months he’s spent in Iraq – he’s come to see those struggles played out, and in many case, overcome. Not always, but more often than not.
Today, more than ever, as he speaks to Iraqi’s, more and more speak of a united Iraq.
Michael’s knowledge base about Arabs as a whole and Iraqi’s specifically is far greater than you can ever imagine, Wilfred, so your pompous demeaning attitude only serves to emphasis your ignorance –not to mention your left wing agenda.
As for how much interaction there is between Americans and Iraqis – not only has Mike spoken about that on many occasions – but John Burns who has lived in Iraq for over 5 years, and Richard Engel who has spent years in Iraq – have also spoken to that.
Here’s the answer you don’t want to hear: there is PLENTY of interaction between Americans and Iraqis every day on the street.
The Americans are involved in close friendships with Iraqis who they interact with every day on the streets. They are very close to their interpreters who share every danger with the Americans. They are all intertwined and nothing happens to one group without it affecting the other.
Americans train the Iraqi Armies and Police Force daily; Iraqi children ask Americans for soccer balls and “chocolate” – Iraqi adults keep asking the Americans for more micro grant applications — The Iraqi’s use these grants to open new businesses or improve their existing ones. And while the terrorist might be able to hide from American troops – they can’t hide from Iraqi citizens! It is they who point them out to Americans…they work in tanden to help make Iraq safer.
American businessmen engage with Kurds in Iraq daily – many American businesses now have offices in Kurdish Iraq.
There is more interaction between American and Iraqis then there is between Arabs in most Arab nations and Americans.
How much interaction is there in America between the Arabs and Americans who live and work here?
Michael is no apologist for the Bush Admin – he has frequently criticized and condemned their inept handling of the war which angered right wing zealots, but you’d also know that truth if you got your head out of your ass long enough to read his work, rather rather than just fling insults based on your ignorant biased assumptions—-all of which are wrong!
To John Cole – Riverbend- who you seem so fond of- is the eldest daughter of a former a high ranking Ba’athist, who was a Saddam-appointed ambassador to a western country during the eighties. She is nothing more than a disgruntled Baathist – understandable considering the fall of the Sunni hegemony in Iraq. One can feel sorry for her current situation —after all she fled the “horrors of Iraq” as you put it. Or one can feel sorry for other Iraqi women, who like Riverbend, also lived in Iraq prior to 2003, but UNLIKE her weren’t able to flee “the horrors of Iraq under Saddam” , that they were forced to endure as members of the “less privileged ” class. These Iraqi women suffered the humiliation of being raped by Uday after forcibly satisfying Saddam’s sexual appetites, and were then fed to lions – or committed suicide out of the shame they felt about what they were forced to do.
You wax about the Riverbend fleeing the “horrors of Iraq” today, but what about the “horrors of Iraq” inflicted on the Kurds, or those families under Saddam who suffered torture and death because of his insane paranoia and insatiable demented need for torturing innocent people. They were not able to flee the horrors of Iraq under Saddam – but she enjoyed her life. So now the once privileged Riverbend, who ignored the horrors of Iraq going on in her own backyard, has now fled to Syria and lives as a refugee —- karmic payback is a bitch! If you asked me she got off good!
Yes mistakes were made in Iraq – but the even longer list of mistakes made by Americans during WW2 was mind boggling. We lost more battles than we won initially….but we PREVAILED and in the end, we WON.
Europe was in ruins but WE REBUILT her.
Today Iraq is still on unsteady ground, the situation is still fragile, a truth Michael has pointed out frequently, but, as he also points out, that the ground grows steady every day.
The situation in Iraq HAS changed for the better; fledging democracy is suffering through its growing pains much like America did and it’s been ravaged much like Europe was, All was not lost then, all will not be lost now!! Progress is happening on a consistent daily basis!
We HAVE turned the corner John Cole…and it ain’t Michael Ledeen that is telling us so, nor is it simply Michael Yon writing the truth about what he’s witnessed — even left wing journalists(John Burns, Richard Engel, Nic Robertson, Michael Gordon,) from well known left wing media (NBC,CNN,The NY Times) have acknowledged that we have turned the corner.
That refuse to see it, only proves you are blind!
I guess arguing from trusted authority is just peachy when it agrees with a particular agenda. All those downer ex-generals and editorial-writing soldiers who say bad stuff about the mission and call it a botched, miserable failure? They obviously had their traitorous lib-loving heads in the sand during their tours of duty and failed to notice our glorious successes.
The Other Andrew
JWW–do guided tours and hiding in a Green Zone hotel count as “time on the ground”? And if you respect people who have spent a lot of time there, you surely respect Riverbend’s opinions, given that she lived there long-term, yes?
Incidentally, I’m still trying to figure out how “winning” the war is even a theoretically good thing. Let’s say we defeat most aspects of the insurgency, somehow lower ethnic tension, and establish a strong central government. A democratic Iraq is going to be a natural ally for Iran, given the Shia majority. So instead of having two enemies that hate each other, we’ll have two enemies that hate us…
Reading into the hate.
Yeah fuck you. You know, really. At what point do you stop believing the one guy who keeps prattling on about “success” (with occasional forays into ‘yes, but’ territory) while completely ignoring the overwhelming body of evidence, including other dispatches from the ground, the inescapable fact that there are millions of displaced Iraqis, several hundred thousand dead Iraqis and nearly 4,000 dead Americans?
How desperate are you anyway? It’s been five years. We’ve been told since the start how this corner has been turned, or that threat has been neutralized, or this ‘success’ has been under reported — and yet we’re still there in record numbers, we still see an Iraqi government that can’t function, we see the Turks lined up at the border, we see the Iranians set up for success. In short our troops have achieved everything they could up until this point, but they are still entrenched there because our political leadership knows the illusion would shatter if we left (and isn’t much more convincing being there). In other words, it’s been “Wolf! Wolf! Wolf! Wolf!” from mouthpieces like Yon and idiots like you since 2002. Nothing you’ve ever said before has played out like you claim. But NOW something is different? Really?
Hate? Whatever floats your boat, you know. Most of us though, are more sick to death of listening to the same old story. Most of us are adult enough to look at the situation and figure out that the absolute best outcome isn’t exactly a “victory”, it’s a stalemate.
Maybe if you read more than Mike Yon, understood the reality as it exists and the history involved, you might be able to think for yourself enough to know this. This war has been an unmitigated disaster from a global point of view, the damage Bush has done is real and long-lasting (and hasn’t even gotten as bad as it will), no matter how pretty the tape that currently holds “Iraq” together is.
Back at the reponders, your answers spew hate. I find it difficult, sometimes ill in reading them. Is it at all possible that we may have even laid the first brick of the foundation. Were we a failure from the onset. The numbers game is an ass talking to an ass. Read just American war history and you would keep your numbers trap shut. Is it George Bush, well maybe the world will be at peace in Jan of 08.
JB, when has the globe ever and for that fact NATO, ever returned the support we have given them. The globe would take you back to the year 1812, NATO, never. The global community doesn’t risk jack, they only take. NATO is non-existant since Russia became a corrupt democracy. We do have allies, but in this case we really don’t need them, we need Americans to be Americans.
The Other Andrew
JWW–I see you ignored specific questions, but I’ll ask this anyway. How long do you think it will take to win in Iraq?
seems to me those godless commies in the Soviet Union had a big hand in helping defeat the Nazis.
But sir(or “madam”, as the case may be), honestly, what’s NOT to hate about the situation we’re in and WHY we are in it? You DON’T think we were lied about every pertinent facet and over-and-over about every rationale for our involvement in Iraq? YOU feel ILL? Well, geez – I’m just so very, very, AWFULLY FUCKING sorry you’re HURT by our anger and disappointment over being purposefully lied to and deceived into a fruitless, long-term destructive and death-dealing fiasco that has very little, if any, apparent short or long-term upside to it at this point in time.
You ask if even the first brick of a foundation has been laid…You beg the question, sir, so I will ask it: Foundation to exactly fucking WHAT? You ask, “Were we a ‘failure’ from the outset?” Why don’t you tell me exactly what a “success” would have been and then tell me how we could have possibly achieved that desired goal – if you can…but you have to exclude any stated goal that was based on information known by this administration to be false or over-inflated from BEFORE the invasion happened, because basing expectations on bullshit is just more bullshit, and to believe that “good” policy can spring forth from utter bullshit is just plain ignorant and foolish.
There, not a single “number” have I gamed. You recommend we “read American war history”, but I don’t see what your point is. Why don’t YOU read up on the history of Iraq…and the Ottoman Empire that preceded it…and the unnatural partitioning that followed. There were PLENTY of pre-invasion warning signals given by people who actually had some knowledge of Iraq and of the Middle East…and each and every one of them was ignored…and the people who mentioned them vilified and called “traitors” and other vile epithets – so when you talk about the “hate spewers” forgive me if I’m not particularly moved or impressed. The World at “peace” in January of ’08? HOW? We are currently watching George W Bush trying to set up a War scenario involving Iraq – while we are still embroiled in this wretched zero-sum fiasco in Iraq and not doing particularly well in Afghanistan, either. Not to mention the brewing crisis in Pakistan…and many other hot spots around the world.
I won’t even go into the disrespect and trashing of our Constitution…let’s save that for another time & place, if that’s OK with you.
I’m outta here…Good evening.
god, right wingers are attempting prose now. shows over, folks.
Operation Eagle Assist
So when you’re not crying over “hate”, you write in complete gibberish? JWW, you are insentient.
I understand why you look through all the dross to find a shiny ‘success’ in Iraq — you are a born follower, an “American” so bought and sold in the efforts of your country and (especially) party that you cling to nuggets of ‘good news’ without contexualizing what, if anything, it actually means. It’s good because you’re told its good, QED. So you shut out the facts, the vast human tragedy that has enveloped Iraq since we invaded, you ignore the endless amounts of stories that don’t hew to your easily-shattered world view, you look the other way at the outright plunder of war profiteers, the ineptitude of our administration, the massive costs we’ve incurred in lives, treasure and prestige. In short, you define, and indeed, embrace ignorance because the truth (what has not been disputed about Iraq) would cripple you.
Still, it’s only hate which drives us. A nonsensical answer after five years of having every, single fear one had about the war come true.
There is no ‘foundation’ because there is no articulation. There are no plans beyond ad hoc, last-gasp efforts — final proof, if any were at all needed — that the endeavor was ill-conceived from the start. But still, you think the opposite because Mike Yon told you to.
You are so funny,
You really are so eager, I will give you that. I will respond as per member and post. My keyboarding skills suck so give me a few.
Oh gods, he’s found another unsuspecting library.
Speak of the Devil.
“U.S. Planners See Shiite Militias as Rising Threat”
“David H. Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan C. Crocker have concluded that Shiite extremists pose a rising threat to the U.S. effort in Iraq, as the relative influence of Sunni insurgent groups such as al-Qaeda in Iraq has diminished drastically because of ongoing U.S. operations.
“This judgment forms part of the changes that Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, and Crocker, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, approved last week to their classified campaign strategy for the country, which covers the period through summer 2009. The updated plan anticipates shifting the U.S. military effort to focus more on countering Shiite militias — some backed by Iran — that have generated new violence as they battle for power in the south and elsewhere in Iraq, said senior military and diplomatic officials familiar with the plan.
” ‘As the Sunni insurgents quit fighting us, the problems we have with criminality and other militia, many of them Shia, become relatively more important,’ said a U.S. Embassy official, who like others spoke on the condition of anonymity because the plan is not finalized.
“The plan also acknowledges that the U.S. military — with limited time and troops — cannot guarantee a wholesale defeat of its enemies in Iraq, and instead is seeking ‘political accommodation’ to persuade them to end the use of violence, the officials said.
“In the political arena, the campaign plan no longer upholds the passage of specific laws by Iraq’s parliament as the main measure of reconciliation among religious and ethnic factions. It instead emphasizes the need for government leaders to take concrete, practical steps in areas such as sharing oil revenues or hiring ex-Baathist officials. ‘We want to have more focus on these results . . . not on the technical legislation,’ said the embassy official. [The reason for this shift, of course, is that Iraq’s parliament has made it clear by now that it has no intention of passing any actual laws encouraging reconciliation — Moomaw.]
” Crocker and Petraeus are in broad agreement over the campaign plan changes, summarized in a 20-slide presentation that they approved in a meeting last Wednesday. However, officials identified frictions over elements of the plan — in particular, the pace and scope of future troop withdrawals — between Petraeus, whose priority is stabilizing Iraq, and senior leaders at the Pentagon, Joint Chiefs of Staff and regional commands concerned about the risks of conflicts elsewhere…
” ‘Centcom, the Joint Staff and OSD [Office of the Secretary of Defense] would be happier with more forces coming out, and if they could order us to redeploy forces more quickly they would do it,’ said a senior official familiar with the plan. ‘But the president is on the CG’s [commanding general’s] side.’
“Senior Pentagon and military officials say the tensions emerge from commanders’ different responsibilities. ‘The concern in Baghdad is a lot more restricted, as their mission only includes Iraq,’ said a senior military official. ‘At the end of the day, Iraq is Iraq. It’s very important, but there are other problems in the world,’ such as Iran, Afghanistan, Lebanon and the Horn of Africa, the official said…
“The campaign plan’s recognition that Shiite extremists pose a relatively greater threat comes as rival Shiite militias have increased their attacks throughout southern Iraq in recent months, including the assassination of two provincial governors. A quarterly Pentagon report on Iraq released last month concluded that the instability in some southern provinces reflected the growing strength of the Mahdi Army, the militia of radical Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr.
“Even so, officials said, the targeting of Shiite militias is far more sensitive for the Shiite-led Iraqi government than is the U.S. effort against the Sunni group al-Qaeda in Iraq. ‘When hitting on these militias, you are getting close to home for these Shia politicians . . . so it’s a lot more delicate,’ said one military official…
“Some military analysts doubt that Iraqi security forces are impartial enough to enforce the local cease-fires being negotiated around the country, and think that large numbers of U.S. troops will be needed to police such accords for at least another year. ‘If we are leaving and expecting the Iraqi security forces to enforce these cease-fires, we are in deep, deep trouble,’ said Stephen Biddle, a military expert at the Council on Foreign Relations who has advised Petraeus.”
Well. Thank God Michael Yon is there to tell Petraeus, Crocker and all the rest of our top military officers what’s REALLY happening in Shiite Iraq. (Especially since the fact that those Sunni militias have “quit fighting us” for the moment is also an extremely changeable fact itself, and that in any case it doesn’t say a thing about their apparently negligible willingness to stop fighting the Shiite-controlled government.)
Note also that “Centcom, the Joint Chiefs and OSD” — that is, Fallon, Mullen and Gates — are extremely unhappy about the same thing that has always been my primary worry about our entanglement in Iraq: we’re wide open to a military crisis anywhere else — specifically, any involving the nuclear states of Pakistan and North Korea. To say nothing of having been largely stripped by our Iraq involvement of any ability to restrain Iran’s nuclear progrem either militarily or diplomatically. Sure enough, Adm. Mullen announced today:
“The new chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff plans to press Congress and the public to sustain the current high levels of military spending — even after the Iraq war — arguing for money to repair and replace worn-out weapons and to restore American ground forces he described as ‘breakable,’ though not yet broken.
“The new chairman, Adm. Mike Mullen, expressed deep concerns that the long counterinsurgency missions in Iraq and Afghanistan have so consumed the military that the Army and Marine Corps may be unprepared for a high-intensity war against a major adversary.
“He rejected the counsel of those who might urge immediate attacks inside Iran to destroy nuclear installations or to stop the flow of explosives that end up as powerful roadside bombs in Iraq or Afghanistan, killing American troops.
“With America at war in two Muslim countries, he said, attacking a third Islamic nation in the region ‘has extraordinary challenges and risks associated with it.’ The military option, he said, should be a last resort…
“One of the few Vietnam War veterans remaining in the most senior officer corps, Admiral Mullen expressed worries that the missions in Iraq and Afghanistan had undermined the military’s ability to fight big wars — and distracted the armed forces from preparing to face other threats…
“Assessing the impact of long, repeated deployments for the ground forces in Iran and Afghanistan, he said, ‘The ground forces are not broken, but they are breakable.’ ”
I myself would put it another way: given the enormous importance of trying to put an end to Iran’s Bomb program — and the fact that at least a plausible threat of military force is likely to be a crucial part of that — shouldn’t we be asking ourselves whether reserving our military strength for THAT purpose may not be more important than trying to pacify Iraq?
I just don’t see it the same way. I see it as the general population of Iran will make a sound effort in freedom. They already push the laws to the extent of execution, beating, fines , and imprisonment. Iraq has never had a bearing on this. The general population of Iran knows where they want to go, a free Iraq would only lead to that vision.
You are just plain lost in the wilderness. Russia did exaclty what this country needs to do. Protect its homeland. Russia only entered the war or it would no longer be Raussia. They did not enter the war to assist the USA and the rest of Europe. Most all of European nations only entered they war as a presevasion state.
As I said, but you couldn’t read. They gave up nothing, they still give nothing. Paying a fuel bill and a man hour report is nothing. They still do the same, offer money and man hours outside the combat zone.
Our closest NATO allies spend only money. They will however reap the rewards of our blood, when this is over.
The Other Steve
If not for Russia, you’d be speaking German.
Thanx for the accounting of anger. It does appear though you have the wrong idea of my thoughts. I don’t recall at any point in any discussion that I stated “I want this war”. We are however, vested. Time really is not the issue. Oh, you certainly can cuss, but that’s okay. It just points out your weakness or maybe you are reaching the PMS stage. Yes, I did say read just American war history. You will find that any number of dead soldiers, civilians and displaced residents in the current conflict are “?”. It also seems that just our own “Civil War” make this war “?”. I think maybe I should go before you get angry.
I gather what you are saying. That still is not the point. Russia did only what Russia needed to do. She did not do it for any other reason but too remain Russia. It was not to save England, Poland, Italy, France, or any other nation. Yes, they did suffer losses above all others as a nation. They were determined to save their country, and they did. No, I would not be speaking German, my grandafather and fathers generation of Americans would have seen to that. Don’t question how past wars were fought, it was to win, not to whine.
Your are bought and sold. I offer nothing. May your sons grow up and serve.
Its no surprise that inane comments like those posted on Yon’s blog by r€nato would also find there way here – not to mention lies.
“Pity that the 2 million plus Iraqis who have fled their country, aren’t reading Michael Yon so that they can know how truly awesome things are there now!”
What about the millions of people who fled the “horrors of Iraq” under Saddam while Riverbend enjoyed a life of privilege as the eldest daughter of a former a high ranking Ba’athist, who was a Saddam-appointed ambassador to a western country during the eighties. Or better yet, what about the millions of Iraqis who didn’t get a chance to flee, because Saddam killed them! You really think you are so damn smart. You no nothing about Arabs, Iraqi’s, the history of Iraq, or what Michael Yon has written.
Michael Yon NEVER said that things in Iraq were truly awesome. FIND ME ONE SENTENCE where he says that or even implies it.
What he does say in this dispatch is that people are not getting the truth about the complicated situation in Iraq.
And he is right.
Mike wrote several dispatches this summer in which he spoke about the horrors of Iraq perpetuated by Al Queda on innocent Iraqi’s; of course when he wrote about one particular horror, left wing bloggers refused to even consider that the story as told by an Iraqi might even be possible – apparently the only horrors that r€nato and several equally dimwitted commenters believe are the lies about our military. Michael wrote about horror of a mass gave that was discovered, and in 2006, he wrote several dispatches outrightly criticizing the Bush Administration for mishandling of this war, but apparently those stories seems to have gone lost on r€nato. Mike writes about the complicated situation in Iraq — about the horrors in Iraq , about the success, the failures, the good, the bad and the ugly. He has never written that life in Iraq is awesome.
So stop lying r€nato – you look like the ass you are.
Since the media only wants to report about the horrors of Iraq, one would think they would have jumped at the chance to report the horror that Yon witnessed, and that was later, under pressure by the blogsphere, verified by two AP journalists – but apparently writing the truth about the horror that is Iraq only means writing about American soldier death tolls,IED explosions, Iraqi deaths, suicide bombers, and Iraqis, like Riverbend, fleeing Iraq.
Just so you get it — what Mike wrote in this dispatch is that the MSM- for the most part- alleges to be telling Americans the truth about about Iraq, but that truth doesn’t include the very real successes in Anbar, in Basra, and in different areas of Baghdad. No mention of the hundreds of micro loans being given out by American troops to Iraqi’s who are starting their own businesses and growing the ones they have ( part of the Petreaus plan) of the successful and mutually beneficial interaction between Americans and Iraqis and not just the Iraqi army and police force, but also between Americans and Iraqi children, and the special bond between Iraqi interpretors who risk danger by working with the Americans, and the soldiers they work along side.
One of Mikes dispatches clearly states that Iraq is still in a fragile state. And no one -especially Mike- is disputing that truth.
Kinda disproves your bullshit about Mike only writing about how awesome Iraq is!
But, much progress has been made under Petreaus, and not only has Mike reported on that progress but so has John Burns, Michael Gordon, Nic Robertson, and Richard Engel— all MSM journalists.
Riverbend is nothing more than a disgruntled Baathist – understandable considering the fall of the Sunni hegemony in Iraq. On the other hand you, r€nato are an ignorant lying fool.
I suppose one can feel sorry for Riverbend’s current situation — she fled horrors of today’s Iraq but what about other women who were members of the “less privileged class and who suffered the humiliation of being raped by Uday after forcibly satisfying Saddam’s sexual appetites, and were then fed to lions – or committed suicide out of the shame they felt about what they were forced to do.
And what about the millions of Kurds in Saddam’s Iraq. They didn’t suffer the horrible fate of fleeing Iraq – they were simply tortured and then killed en masse in an act of genocide. Poor Riverbend, she ignored the horrors of Iraq under Saddam, going on in her own backyard and now the other horrors of Iraq, as well as the successes within Iraq by Shia’s have forced her to flee Iraq and live as refugee in Syria —- karmic payback is a bitch! If you asked me she got off easy!
But in fairness to Riverbend, CNN also ignored the horrors in Iraq under Saddam in exchange for being the only news organization allowed to have a Baghdad bureau.
But you don’t concern yourself with those truths, do you r€nato. Especially when you can busy yourself making up lies about what Mike Yon has written which has been echoed by John Burns, Richard Engel,and Nic Robertson. All members of left wing media! Or maybe you can’t seem capable of understanding what’s written when its actually discussing real progress in a complex situation in a complicated country.
It seems those journalist who are NOW in Iraq and who have been in Iraq over long periods of time previously also recognize the same truth Mike writes about that– the truth you can’t bear to hear: we are slowly turning a corner in Iraq – progress is happening daily – a fledgling democracy is successfully struggling against her own weaknesses and her peoples tendencies to embrace tribal loyalties, and is moving towards unity and co- operation.
It’s not perfect, but Mike never said it was! NOR did he ever say things were awesome. Either you don’t understand what you read, OR you haven’t read Mikes work, OR you are deliberately lying.
And if Jay B had also read the full body of Mike’s work he’d know that at no point as Yon ever cried ‘wolf’ . He has criticized the Bush administration for their massive screw ups, was the first to write about the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan, and took the Military to task for censoring the ugly truth about Iraq — yes he has written true stories about real successes in Iraq but he has also written about the failures, and the very serious mistakes made by our administration. He also receives alot of flack for publishing all of Joe Galloways Op-Eds that often vilify the Administration for blundering into this war. Hardly something one would do if he was crying “wolf” or believed that things were awesome in Iraq.
How many Iraqis who fled during Saddam’s regime have returned to Iraq?
When put against the limited perceptions of one journalist or a 5% drop in violence in province X, I’m always going to trust the judgment of the millions of actual Iraqis who believe Iraq is dangerous to the extent that they are willing to leave their lives behind and flee to Syria or Jordan or whatever other… how to put it… less than ideal location they can get to.
r€nato — including your email address TWICE in the BODY of of TEXT in the two inane comments you left on Mike Yon’s blog is why your email addy appears on Mike’s site.
Only a freaking idiot would do that ( nuff said) and then accuse Mike Yon or his administrator of breaking “the sacred privacy ritual of asking for email addy but not publishing it”
Including your email addy in the body of the text on BOTH inane comments means you wanted it published.
No end to r€nato’s lies and distortions and stupidity.
Next time write the email addy exactly where it indicates to write it, and it won’t get published. Otherwise, continue to suffer the consequences of your own stupidity and stop blaming others.
People keep insisting that Riverbend must be a Ba’athist, because she’s Sunni, and I’m curious: where are y’all getting this from? She states repeatedly and frequently that
a) she was never a Ba’athist, and
b) her family is mixed, Sunni and Shi’a
I’m sure the people who are insisting otherwise have some sort of evidence for their claims?
Every commenter that said anything remotely critical of Yon had their emails posted BY YON. This after a promise not to publish emails. This makes him a jerk and lier and you dumb as dirt.
The Other Andrew
JWW–thanks for replying. I didn’t ask about Iran, though. I asked how long you think it’ll take us to win in Iraq.
And a bonus question for JWW and Ms. Kyle (Catwoman is Selena Kyle, though, not Serena)–how do you define victory in Iraq, and how will we know if we’ve achieved it?
We need you back in the 3rd grade.
It’s called a ‘smear’, and it sort of gives away their agenda. Why do you hate the Iraqi people so much, Serena Kyle?
No, but when did that ever stop them before?
This year, I worked with 4 brigades in the Baghdad area. I opened up my WAPO this morning, and turned to the “Faces of the Fallen” section. 19 killed in these units, 30 Aug – 10 October.
I guess the surge didn’t work for those troops.
I mean, I’m glad we’re saving Iraq or whatever the hell we’re doing over there, but WTF? The only reason there aren’t huge protests is that a tiny minority of people are directly affected.
I think every American ought to be afforded the opportunity to go to Iraq for a couple of weeks, including everyone in the government. Maybe spell a soldier for a few weeks so that they could have some R&R.
We’d be home real fast.
I should have stopped reading after this priceless bit of hackneyed Orientalism:
This is the arrogance of empire, the forced values conversion as directed at the ‘uncivilized’ Wog, who always needs to be saved by the superior values of the West – embodied by Michael Yon. Franz Fanon once remarked, ironically I should think, that the colonized black had two choices: Turn white or disappear. You should have disappeared.
As for the rest of this neo-colonialist nonsense – it’s exactly what the Russians said when they invaded Afghanistan: they, too, were bringing modernity to a backward, tribal, Muslim people. Did you support that project, too?
Tell me, Tara: What do the Iraqis call Americans behind their backs?
I’m going to use up some bandwidth to call attention to some of what the Muslim hating Tara has written. I’m guessing Alexdrandine Copt (New Jersey?) working as a translator and Yon’s cultural interlocutor. Compare her comments with the following:
That’s Chateaubriand’s semi-justification for the Crusades, which is exactly what Yon and Tara are on about. The original justification for the war now replaced with the resurrection of a familiar pattern:
The low Arab Muslim – please remember that this is the critical combination that exempts Christian Arabs and Muslim Kurds – must first be damned in order to be rescued, first reduced to begging:
to guarantee the largess of colonial administrators. When I was in Iraq, the people dragged you off the street into their houses for tea and sweets – ahlan wa sahlan.
Everything old is new again, thus:
To which I add Tara and Yon and the rest of the Americans who have learned nothing except the smug self-satisfaction that comes with mindless authoritarianism and absolute power.
Don’t prattle to me.
I did no such thing.
Wow. I must have dozed off and missed the first few chapters. Weren’t we just punishing Saddam for 911 and taking away his WMDs?
The idea of re-conquering and “civilizing” the moslems certainly would have been a revelation to Saladin. Did Daniel Pipes win the the mid-term elections?
More than that, how does one surge when turning the corner? Sounds more like an effete European GP 1 maneuver than good ol Amurrican NASCAR.
That is, I did not put my email in the body of my comments. The webmaster/moderator published my email – despite the form clearly stating, ‘will not be published’ – so as to invite hate mail from jackals like yourself.
Classy, very classy.
howls of derisive laughter!
And the USA only entered WW2 for the most noble of purposes – to save the world! It had nothing at all to do with self-preservation!
Never mind the inconvenient fact that JWW’s ideological ancestors of that day – that is, late 1930s and early 1940s era conservatives – preached isolationism and wanted nothing to do with entanglement in overseas wars.
Readers should especially never mind the extraordinarily inconvenient fact that Bush’s grandfather, Prescott Bush, helped finance the Nazis and was still making money off them after the war started until the US government confiscated his war profiteering assets.
Where the hell do these people get their industrial grade stupid? Invading and occupying a country that had neither the will nor the means of doing the U.S. significant harm is a matter of self preservation? They really believe that at few thousand disgruntled, stateless jihadis backed up with a pile of Saudi oil money are going to defeat the U.S.? Hint: just because Dinesh Dsouza has surrendered and advises his own version of sharia, doesn’t mean we’re going down to the islamofascist threat.
Grumpy Code Monkey
Bonus question for JWW: What does it even mean to “win” in Iraq? What will we have won?
JWW – I make no apologies for my anger or my use of profanity. The fact that we are now embroiled in this fiasco in no way justifies that we become subservient to this administration’s on-going follies. Given the realities of our military manpower dilemma this “surge” cannot succeed, unless you consider more pointless death and injury to our soldiers to be some type of “success”. That said, I do not have a definitive plan that would serve to both extract us from this fiasco or help the Iraqi’s become a functioning society. At this point I don’t think anybody does. Indeed, it is not the function of citizens to be able to solve these situations. That is what our LEADER’S are supposed to do, deal with and SOLVE our issues, as opposed to CREATING more sad and dangerous situations. Our job is to pay attention to what they do and speak out if we believe they are wrong…and I have no doubt they have been wrong at just about every juncture and turn from the very start here. It doesn’t please me one bit to say that there is not likely to be any “quick fix” to the Iraq situation – I think it may take decades – if it ever happens at all. I don’t think our current presence is helping…given our manpower and equipment situation anyone inhabiting the real world must acknowledge that we cannot and will not be able to continue in the present path for very long. I don’t think stalling things out with this futile surge helps the Iraqi’s and I do think it prevents us from healing our military and bringing it back up to a position where our forces could act effectively should a justifiable conflict require it. This is not a minor issue and it goes to the heart of the reckless irresponsibility of the Bush Administration.
I really have to shake my head when you want to equate my free use of profanity with some sort of “weakness” in my thought processes or ability to articulate. If you don’t agree with my positions, fine…refute them (recall – I asked you to do so in my post), but don’t hide behind some sort of feigned superiority because I choose to speak my mind bluntly. Look, I’m old enough to say what I want when I want to and I don’t need you or anyone else to play “schoolmarm” with me.
Grumpy Code Monkey
Oh, yeah, the ponies. But what else?
No, it’s cool. I can schedule some Being American time in between PTI and Law and Order.
OH…a point about your comment on my use of profanity. Yes, I have become crankier with age. I simply don’t suffer fools as gladly as I used to. I noticed a couple years ago that it had become the first New Year’s resolution I broke every year, so I decided to shit-can it from my list.
And while we’re pointing things out, let’s go back to your issues with “hate”. I do not profess to be a “Christian”, so I have no religious injunction against “hate”, per se. Now you SHOULD know (but maybe don’t) that there are different kinds of hate. I find blind, unreasoning hate to be self-defeating, but when I have sufficient cause I see no reason why one should withhold expressing anger, rage, and yes, even hatred. That doesn’t mean I have to act upon it in a physical sense. For instance, I truly hate what George Bush has done and continues to do to this country and to the world at large. Would I harm him? No, I would not. In spite of HIS disregard for the laws of our nation I still abide by them to the best of my ability. If and when I don’t I expect to be called to account for my actions. I think it’s a shame and a pity we cannot say the same for our President.
No charge for the primer lessons. If you have anything to say you should try to build and articulate a supportable foundation for your position instead of getting all pissy about whether or not some old fart swears on occasion and then perhaps try to come to terms with the fact that many people have grown real tired of being on the receiving end of this administration’s lies, deceit, disdain, contempt and disrespect.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.
And please JWW, show me a war where the winning side cut taxes at the same time they increased spending.
You can’t beat basic math no matter how big a club you make.
horse pucky! The Laffer curve proves that the more we cut taxes, the greater revenue grows! Why, if we cut taxes to zero, revenues would be infinite!
Of course, Republicans are generally AGAINST big government (at least, they say so…), so really it would be better to RAISE taxes so as to cut government revenues!
More good news:
The Iraqi “government” has promised to go after the Kurds who have been bothering/killing the Turks!
What could go wrong?
To recap since Yon says we’re not getting all the good news:
– Sunnis, no longer our mortal enemy although they still hate us
– Shiite militias pose grave danger, according to the administration ‘brain trust’
– Toothless Iraqi government promises Turkey (who has troops poised on the border) they’ll take care of those pesky Kurds who operate in the quasi-independent north
Some of you can read that and say that it augurs a promising future for Iraq? Nothing is settled. No one is happy. And the minute whoever the Iraqi government gets to go and kill some terrorist Kurds, the Kurds — even those opposed to the PKK — will go fucking nuts. Of course, the Shiites are just waiting the US occupation out before looking to settle the Sunni’s hash and the Sunnis need some oil fields to have leverage when the inevitable proposal of dividing up Iraq happens.
Success! Victory! Sexy!
It’s too late!
Turkey has invaded the Boston area!
Oh, that’s just great. Can a succulent caliphate (with facist gravy, no doubt) be far behind?
the president of Iraq, Jalal Talabani, is a Kurd. Soon, wingnuts won’t even be able to point to Iraq’s north as an area where things are calm.