It’s 3:30am (Eastern.) Give me something to read.
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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
We know you aren’t a Democrat but since you seem confused let me help you.
There are no moderate republicans – only extremists and cowards.
You don’t get to peddle hatred on saturday and offer condolences on sunday.
They love authoritarianism, but only when they get to be the authoritarians.
People are complicated. Love is not.
“They not like us!” (that’s for sure!)
Fight for a just cause, love your fellow man, live a good life.
How can republicans represent us when they don’t trust women?
A lot of Dems talk about what the media tells them to talk about. Not helpful.
DeSantis transforming Florida into 1930s Germany with gators and theme parks.
Take hopelessness and turn it into resilience.
Stamping your little feets and demanding that they see how important you are? Not working anymore.
Be a traveling stable for those who can’t find room at the inn.
This fight is for everything.
In my day, never was longer.
Let’s finish the job.
SCOTUS: It’s not “bribery” unless it comes from the Bribery region of France. Otherwise, it’s merely “sparkling malfeasance”.
Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?
I was promised a recession.
Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.
The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.
I’m starting to think Jesus may have made a mistake saving people with no questions asked.
It is possible to do the right thing without the promise of a cookie.
At some point, the ability to learn is a factor of character, not IQ.
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Andrei
Hey! NewGuy(tm)!
Balloon-Juice needs more of this: http://www.makemylogobiggercream.com
Michael D.
I clicked on that link only because I thought it said “Make my LOG bigger”
r€nato
you pervosexual.
laneman
Well, if you can wait and like pseudo-horro humor, just finished Scar Night
Alan Campbell has created a fun world. The ‘good’ god is an ass and evil and he ‘bad’ god is just sitting there being benign.
If you need instant gratification, go find an outer wingnuttia blog and hit random post.
laneman
it ate my link which showed up fine in the preview
Scar Night
DR
“Conscience of a Liberal” by Paul Krugman… Might make your conversion complete!
One can hope, no?
Michael van der Galiën
I’ve got a better book suggestion: The Closing of the American Mind. Problems is; you’ve probably already read it.
Meanwhile, I’m reading Atlas Shrugged these days. Anyone here who read it?
I agree with some of the basic ideas behind it, but it’s boring.
demimondian
Altas Shrugged is TEH GRATEST BOOK EVAH! It’s, like, the foundation of the modern industrial society! And it’s really modelled on Rand’s life — she said so herself!
capelza
Michael van der G…
Ayn Rand..don’t get me started. Boring is such a nice word for “Atlas Shrugged”. As woman I am especially “insprired” by Rand’s “bodice ripping”.
Rand said in 1968:
Another little point I’d like to make about Rand’s fantasy “utopia of greed”..there are never any children in it. But then children to tend to be “moochers”…and they’ll whip the “heroic” right out of you. I wonder if the sound of children’s voices in Galt’s Gulch would have made a difference.
I am not trying to be mean to Objectivists, but I think that if Ayn Rand suddenly found herself in a real Galt’s Gulch, she’d suddenly find herself longing for the protective arms of a statist city with the all the comforts she dearly loved.
I understand the allure of the book…I read it when I was young.
The Other Steve
The book to read is True Believer – Thoughts on the nature of Mass Movements by Eric Hoffer.
It’s on my list of books to read.
laneman
Ayn Rand has a problem with the toooooo many words.
But her basic premise is spot on.
Dreggas
I highly suggest Chariots Of The Gods.
capelza
Eureka Street..by Robert McLiam Wilson. About the troubles in Northern Ireland in the 1990s. It is a comedy…sort of. I’ve bought several copies and they keep disappearing.
RSA
Nice suggestion, assuming that requests for reading material at 3:30 in the morning have the goal of putting oneself to sleep.
rachel
A world where we didn’t have to take care of our children or useless old people would be better? I’ll agree to that; I hate the whiny beggars, myself.
Michael van der Galiën
Laneman: I can agree with that yeah. To a degree that is. Capelza put it well, something I thought about as well. She doesn’t pay any attention to children. O, and as a conservative I’ve got to say that her view on family life is, umh, fucking dangerous.
Politics; she’s got some good points, every day life; social life; wha, I’d say better to listen to, I don’t know, dr. Phil.*
*lesser of two evils?
Michael van der Galiën
“Nice suggestion, assuming that requests for reading material at 3:30 in the morning have the goal of putting oneself to sleep.”
Yeah, well, wasn’t it his goal to sleep?
Especially the old people. They always nag. It’s like a hobby.
JWeidner
The Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett. Set in the 12th century, it’s about a stonemason’s family and his efforts to build a cathedral in Kingsbridge. It may sound dull, but it’s one of the best books I’ve ever read.
RSA
If we’re talking about her perspective on selfishness, I think that her writing oversimplifies complex issues and has little value in general. Whenever I’ve read something by Rand or one of her followers, I’ve come away with the impression that the ideas are ungrounded, lacking any kind of relationship or response to the rest of the literature of philosophy.
Jess
I was into Ayn Rand for a bit when I was a teenager. It all made so much sense. And then I entered the real world with actual people in it…I gained a few useful insights into my own intolerant tendencies from Rand, and I don’t regret the two years that I actually took her seriously, but she and her followers are real whackjobs–a shining example of the insanity of too much “rationality.” I occasionally crack open “The Fountainhead” for a nostalgic giggle…Friedrich Nietzsche meets Danielle Steel.
The Other Steve
Man, and I spent my teen age years reading Gor books by John Norman.
A wasted youth.
capelza
TOC
A friend of mine, when he wanted to get me riled up would mention the Gor books. Speaking of Randian “feminism”…we girls just love being dominated by macho men.
:)
Really I don’t care that much…though I find it very offensive from the female founder of a political movement, from a male fantasy writer, not so much.
DR
Ayn Rand??? I give her as much credit as I do to that other sci-fi writer turned “philosopher”: L. Ron Hubbard.
All she was doing is desperately trying to justify her own prejudices. She had some small level of guilt for being such a horrendously self-centered and selfish person, and she chose to project her own psychosis on the world instead of facing up to her own smallness.
A good psych 101 case study maybe, but definitely not a good read…
capelza
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/5592/rand.html
It took me a bit to find it, but it says anything about Rand better than I. A “review” of “We the Living”.
laneman
I keep mine kids in teh coal mine ;-)
But, there is something of value in her writings. Not all, but some.
`
Heh. I just pinged my mom about that series and where they were. I am re-assembling my classics. Even the ones that cause pain.
Jess
Yeah, pretty much. Although I did find her arguments useful as a counterpoint to the equally silly stuff my communist friends were spouting at the time, and later it was interesting to come up with counter-arguments to her positions. She’s easy to mock, but it is actually something of a challenge to frame a logical argument against Objectivism. And sometimes it’s necessary to indulge the inner fascist, just a little bit. That’s what fiction is for, right? And I don’t mind guys reading that Gor trash either, as long as they don’t confuse it with reality–so indulge yourself, TOS!
laneman
that ‘ poster was laneman
my bad
DougJ
Has anyone checked out Mark Halperin’s new digs at Time magazine’s The Page? The whole freaking thing is about the Clinton archives. Plus he mocks the Times for covering Bernie Kerik.
He’s given up all pretense of being nonpartisan.
capelza
I’m sure there’s value in Hubbard’s writing as well..the husband has a whole collection of his fiction and loves it still.
But does my husband buy into Scientology? No.
Not having read Hubbard, I can’t speak for his writing style, but I have read Rand. Her pipe dream world of uber men (and their adoring women) and everyone else an unwashed peasant disgusts me.
laneman
Heh. Do a block search on objectvism at the discussion area linked on my site. John Alway is even more insane that I am.
laneman
da (that russian thing) she has a bunch o’ problems. But, IMO, digging deep, she has some decent points, I think.
Hubbard is a whack job, IMHO.
Jess
I’ll do that the next time I’m the mood to laugh and cry over the human condition. BTW, I didn’t mean to imply that one couldn’t or shouldn’t eviscerate the Objectivist argument, but rather that it’s a good intellectual exercise to do so–kind of like those irritating and pointless mathematical puzzles that have become fashionable (what are they called? It’s some Japanese name…).
Jess
I agree–they’re worth grappling with at least. I remember as a teenager wondering how they could seem so right when, weighing them against reality, they were clearly so wrong. It taught me a lot about the problems with philosophy in general, and made me much more skeptical about seductive theories that only function in laboratory conditions.
capelza
laneman..exactly what are her decent points?
Not being argumentitive, I am curious what you think the points are.
Andrew
Gosh, this thread is like a primer on how to be boring on the Internets: Michael D.’s weak open thread attempt, Ayn Rand, Michael van der Galien, and Michael van der Galien talking about Ayn Rand.
Dear Jeebus, save us from the lame.
DougJ: You don’t even have to click through to Halperin to know that his shit will stink. Any site that calls itself “The ” will be a pompous and tedious exercise in corporate blogowanking. The Note. The Plank. The Page. The Fucking Give It Up Already.
Jess
Capelza,
If laneman isn’t answering, I toss my $.02 into the pot. It’s been a long time since I’ve read her, so I don’t remember the details, but the her “Virtue of Selfishness” argument is worth taking a look at. I tend to agree with the concept of enlightened self-interest, although I think she takes it too far. I found it refreshing because too many women in my family were passive-aggressive martyrs, always altruistically sacrificing themselves and then resenting others. I’ve adopted Rand’s position to the point where I try to do what is in my own best interests, take responsibility for my actions, and don’t resent others for not giving me a prize for doing the right thing. Since I firmly believe that it is in my own best interests to cultivate trusting, symbiotic relationships with others, and since I’m happiest when I’m contributing positively to others’ lives, for me being selfish and being generous are pretty much the same thing. But if I need to be self-protective, I’m not hindered by any false ideals about self-sacrifice. I think that’s a much healthier way to negotiate one’s life, and I don’t think I would have figured this out without reading Rand.
capelza
Jess..thanks for the post.
I agree with your view, though I came to it not from Rand, but elsewhere. Stepping away from religion and actually from society (living in an area with no electricity and self-sufficient for a number of years). But I can see how the basic premise of “selfishness” as a good thing can be gleaned from her works.
If she had stuck to the personal rather trying to make it a poltical philosophy I might not be so hard on her. But as someone who has actually lived in a kind of “Galt’s Glutch” I have a very hard time with Randians who live in cities where they enjoy the privileges of a society they claim to detest and where I find them more often than not as big a bunch of moochers as the next guy.
bago
I suggest playing Bioshock. It’s a randian dystopia under the sea, and a hell of a good game.
Jess
Capelza,
I agree with the personal vs. political issue. This is one of the lessons that I learned from my encounter with her, actually–that what works as a personal code does not translate directly into a political system. I think this is what many libertarians fail to grasp.
I would be very interested to hear more about your Galt’s Gulch experience sometime–I’m starting a research project and possible book on alternative intentional communities, especially of the off-the-grid sort. I did my own version of that as well, at a back-to-the-land boarding school, and, as it did for you, it made me realize the limitations of ideology in the face of the practical day-to-day reality of trying to live and work with other people. That’s when I realized that Rand was full of crap.
capelza
Jess..I left home when I was 15, nearing 16..went to an alternative high school and got out a year ealry.
This was all in Humboldt County, California. I lived in Southern Humboldt and over into Trinity County. There are a lot of people living out there off the grid (and not all of them grow pot either!).
We had a shared house with a large garden and communal canning, etc. Woodstove for cooking…etc. Though to be honest, for canning we used a propane stove for that specific purpose because a wood stove is more difficult to regulate. There were about 10 people involved. I lived elswhere off the grid and that was a wonderful experience, but on a very small scale with just one other person. My husband loves his modern convieniences and I confess that instant hot water is very, very nice. :)
You run into different personalities and drives. It happens in a very small setting or in huge societies. And as Rand always leaves out, children change the dynamic forever…the interests of parents override in their minds the needs of the “community”. It takes a lot of work to make even a small community like that work. Where i live in Oregon, there are still small communes around…there are always going to be the “talkers” vs. the “doers” and those who are just bone lazy, don’t realise how much work is involved and trying to boot them out can lead to deep divisions in said communtiy.
My huge problem with libertarians is that, to me anyway, they have this “frontier” mentality…the population of the world has doubled in my lifetime. Old models will fail on that count alone. Alaska, which I dearly love, is guilty, collectively of this. Take away their federal subsidies and that frontier streak would go away pretty quickly. They see themselves as “rugged individualists” and yet they depend on the federal tit on a grand scale… that and the Permanant Fund.
The Other Steve
I think Ayn Rand would agree that women should be kept as sex slaves.
Clearly, it is in the self-interest of men to have it so.
laneman
jess and capelza have so many good points that I just need to have a drink.
really, what they have both said is, uhm, right.
ThymeZone
Excellent, excellent comment. You are also desribing Arizona, my stomping ground, of half a century ago before the huge population explosion happened here.
A lot of the old, traditional cowboy “frontiersman, independent” attitude is enjoyed while riding herd on grazing land leased from the federal government, not necessarily to the benefit of the environment or local ecologies. Meanwhile, defense spending with big dollars aimed at Arizona helped fuel growth in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s …. and paid for rightwing politics which fostered hatred of government (which was the real benefactor) and love for big (local) defense spending and low taxes at the same time. Or as we call it, the Gingrich Principle.
Jess
Capelza,
Sorry to duck out on our exchange–had to leave the abstract discourse for some practical action (i.e. grocery shopping). I’ve been camping in Trinity County–nice area! I left home at 16 and spent two years at an alternative school in California as well (Midland, near Santa Barbara and across the road from Michael Jackson’s Neverland). Funny how often people’s stories coincide at this site…
Michael van der Galiën
On a more serious note; a reader sent me two books about the korean war and vietnam. Awesome stuff. Forget the title, but one of them is with a foreword of John McCain.
Chuck Butcher
Gor and Rand, jeeze I read them at about the same period and took neither more seriously than the other. For space opera I preferred Heinlein. If I needed fiction with a point John Gardiner and October Light, Grendel, any of his stuff outshines Rand. But then I admit a preference for being led to a point rather than being clubbed with it.
What Rand and others of the libertarian bent seem to miss entirely is that they do well in the system as it is rigged, if it were rigged a little differently they’d sing another song.