This whole unseemly contest business (have we no shame? paging SATSQ…) reminds me of one of my favorite posts from the not too distant past. I don’t know whether anyone has seriously debated why RedState has plateaued while Kos can’t add servers fast enough (I have no doubt that many people have unseriously debated it). As far as I can tell it doesn’t have much to do with a disparity in talent, in fact just the reverse. Opening my shit umbrella, I think that the stable of writers at RS at least holds their own in terms of basic writing and reasoning.
One shouldn’t dismiss the insurgent advantage. Having everything to attack and little to defend energized the liberal blogosphere and left the rightwing blogosphere with the awkward choice between defending the government (not a great place under any administration, and most particularly this one) or hurting the movement. More than that I think people realize blogosphere left faces real trouble when when and if Dems sweep government in ’09. At the very least partisans have to reconsider their relationship with muckrakers like Josh Marshall and Kevin Drum contrarians, and I honestly can’t wait to watch Glenn Greenwald become an intolerable pain in the ass for movementarians on the left.
Even so the insurgent advantage only gets us partway there. An equal component of the leftosphere’s success clearly comes from the distinct attitudes that Democrats and Republicans have towards us noisy, undisciplined hordes in the netroots. Practically every day now a Democratic politician stops by Kos to ask for support or forgiveness on whatever issue of the day, and half the time they don’t get it. Instead they get abuse, sometimes to a comical degree. Yet they keep coming back. The leadership treats internet leaders like allies. The story on the right is a bit different. From that post I mentioned at the outset:
Peter Leyden, director of the New Politics Institute, a San Francisco-based think tank that in recent months has been advising Democratic members of Congress and their staffs on how to take full advantage of the Web, argues that the culture of Democrats is a much better fit in the Internet world.
“What was once seen as a liability for Democrats and progressives in the past—they couldn’t get 20 people to agree to the same thing, they could never finish anything, they couldn’t stay on message—is now an asset,” Leyden said. “All this talking and discussing and fighting energizes everyone, involves everyone, and gets people totally into it.”
As the old saw goes, ask three Democrats and get four opinions. The flip side of that has long helped to explain the huge popularity of conservatism in the old media. Researchers like Bob Altmeyer have exhaustively demonstrated that conservative followers like being told what to think and conservative leaders don’t tolerate input from the masses. In that way radio is the perfect medium, sending the Party line through a select group of reliable disseminators to the polloi with little chance for feedback, which liberals value but authoritarians hate.
[…] I cannot make my point any better than this recent exchange: (via)Rep. John Linder, a Republican from Duluth and a member of the steering committee that made the Calvert appointment, was the first congressional office targeted for calls by RedState.com. But Linder brushed off the online critics.
“I really don’t pay much attention to blogs,” he said. “You can say anything on those blogs without any attribution and get away with it.”
Liberal blogs have been influential, the Georgia lawmaker acknowledged. But he dismissed their conservative counterparts, saying, “I don’t pay any attention to them.”
Even some conservative bloggers object to the new blog activism.
“If you look at the top tier of right-wing bloggers, they’re almost unfailingly civil,” wrote Dean Barnett for the opinion Web site Townhall.com.
He charged that Erickson was trying to turn right-wing Web sites into “the kingmakers that the left-wing blogs are.”
It is hard to imagine a more trenchant, telling and dispiriting exchange for conservative bloggers than this short anecdote. A Republican lawmaker outright says that the influence of GOP blogs is a pale shadow of their Dem counterparts, and more than that, this subservient position in the political discourse is exactly where he thinks they belong.
I don’t have any particular beef with Erick and RedState, and even if I disagree with practically every post I respect what they’re trying to do. It seems to me that they’re up against an institutional disadvantage that runs deeper than just having to defend government rather than criticize it. With luck some years in the wilderness will improve Republican leadership the way it (sort of) did for the Democrats. It will only be good when when the party treats well-intentioned members trying to effect change from the inside like a squeaky wheel rather than like an unhammered nail.
***Update***
Ron Paul. We lib bloggers lived through the Deaniacs, you guys can survive this. But boy does he show how the party reacts when someone hits the party line from the inside. Heterodoxy is schism.
Punchy
Boy, what a quick debate that would be:
DailyKos allows everyone and anyone to sign up, and probably bans about 1 for every 10,000 (0.01%) that sign up. You can even tell Kos he needs a Cleveland steamer and you’re not banned.
RedState, I’m guessing, bans at least a third (33%) of all new members. They have a “trial period” by which you must demonstrate complete fealty, and you absolutely cannot under any circumstance insult the host.
Real simple–DK is the public swimming pool, RS is the elitist membership-only country club. Participation accordingly.
Elvis Elvisberg
I agree that the liberal blogosphere is likely to fragment if/when the Democrats take control. I consider myself pretty much a centrist on stuff like school vouchers and balancing the budget, but that shit all takes a back seat when our country’s torturing people and invading countries on a whim. Once some semblance of sanity has returned, it’ll be fun to resume our familiar intraparty disputes.
That said, I’m not sure it’s fair to say that RedState = Kos. Because today’s Republicanism is, as you point out, largely about obeying higher-ups, regardless of principle. The same people who thought that Travel File Gate was the end of the world now think that the government should have the power to detain and torture US citizens without seeing a court, much less a lawyer.
For RedState to approach Kos, conservatives will really have to engage in some reflection. Kos diarists are the grain of sand that gets the oyster to make the pearl (that’s how Perot described himself, IIRC); RedState people are, by circumstance and predilection, cheerleaders.
zzyzx
Punchy – exactly. Every time I read Red State, there’s at least one or two comments that inspire either a banning or an assignment to prevent a banning. I can’t imagine why people aren’t signing up in droves for that ;)
Fe E
….
Well, that was quick. And from the depth of Tim’s post I thought this might be a very interesting thread. Way to cut right to the quick Punchy.
Bill H
…can’t wait to watch Glenn Greenwald become an intolerable pain in the ass for movementarians on the left.
Oh boy, me too. Is that going to be fun, or what. Although, there are days that he already is just that.
capelza
That’s it in a nutshell. Daily Kos, in particular, is a huge rabble. Especially at primary time…there’s blood letting and vitriolic free for alls.
There is no party line. The only group I can think of that is not allowed are the conspiracy nuts, the “truthers”, etc.
RedState…you must be on message, in line with the group, and no serious dissent. The amount of bannings is legendary.
chopper
that still cracks me up every time.
Michael D.
What no one’s discussed is the cuteness factor. Markos is cute!!
But, ahmmmm, I digress. :-)
Dreggas
I agree wholeheartedly.
Swooning aside though, I would agree with punchy. Bottom line is winger blogs reflect winger ideology when it comes to authoritarian top down control. Disagree with the leader and you are cast out whereas the “netroots” that is the liberal blogosphere is literally bottom up. Furthermore the fact that we don’t agree on EVERYTHING is a benefit not a hinderance because it allows us to form communities. We all know how lemming groupthink can affect things, they just run off a cliff.
Now when dems get control again there’ll still be a liberal blogosphere because we still have shit to oppose, not only republican dirty tricks but also our own side, as Atrios calls them “Lieberdems”. Go to Kos’ site and there is, even out of primary season, posts slamming our own side and going after them (the worst of these being the purists and greens). Why? Because we demand more of our party and we’re involved.
Just look how there were blogger meetings in the WH with bush so marching orders could be given. Enough said. Kos tries to give marching orders, some agree, others flip him off and tell him to go eat pie. Welcome to the real world.
Jake
Shorter Punchy:
RedState is the abode of jerks.
MIKE_NYC
One of the MANY problems with the GOP is its arrogant, anti populace stance, e.g., we know better than the people what is right and good and as such the people NEED us to dictate policy thay is in their best interest. Not only is that belief absurdly wrong, but it incredibly offensive. George W. and the neocons are the living embodiment of what is wrong with this sort of thinking, and the primary reason I may, for the first time ever, vote for a Democrat in 08. That means I have NEVER EVER voted for a Dem in ANY race at any level, but may well do so next year.
Unless the GOP begins to understand what “government by the people and for the people” means, I will be stuck voting for a quasi-socialist like Edwards or a power driven egomaniac like Hillary, which is SAD!
WB Reeves
For a perfect illustration of the practical effects of the Redstate approach I recommend Erick’s post on the Red Tide sweeping over Miss. and La. This is the response to Tuesday’s GOP electoral bloodletting, proclaiming that the victorious GOP conquest of the deep South is now complete. It’s like a flashback to the days of Baghdad Bob.
The comments are instructive as well for their tortured rationalizations. As per 2006 the line is put forward that Dems ran as Conservatives and were anti-immigrant thus proving, at least to Red Staters, that the GOP’s collapse is actually a win for “Conservatism”.
Michael D.
MIKE_NYC: I think that’s a simplistic explanation, but I think you are exactly right.
Andrew
I’m just a little shocked that Tim F. didn’t understand that the RedState ban hammer is really all they live for.
Dreggas
maybe that’s why so many on the right hate Hillary? She is exactly the same way but outside their bubble?
Jody
“More than that I think people realize blogosphere left faces real trouble when when and if Dems sweep government in ‘09.”
I would disagree with this on the grounds that the lefty blogosphere hasn’t hitched it’s wagon to the Dems the way the righties did the GOP.
In fact, much of the criticism of the Democrats in government these days comes FROM the left. The right has savagely attacked criticism of any sort from it’s own, and anyone who did is a traitor to the cause. You will not see that from us should a Democrat occupy the Oval Office in ’09. Just look at the “More and better Democrats” movement going on in the blogosphere right now.
The reason the right failed was because their authoritarian leanings caused them to put everything they had into a failure of a man (among other things). The left is not making that mistake.
Jody
“Practically every day now a Democratic politician stops by Kos to ask for support or forgiveness on whatever issue of the day, and half the time they don’t get it. Instead they get abuse, sometimes to a comical degree, yet they keep coming back.”
Oh, and this could just stem from the current Dems’ love of being abused, but I’m just thinking out loud here.
nwithers
As far as Glenn giving the lefties hell when things start to get easy, I’m all for it. Even though I am definitely a progressive, and it’s looking more and more like the pendulum is swinging back from the brink, eventually we too will lose our way again (after we elect more and better democrats). will we lose our way after a decade, or after another 40 years? People like Glenn Greenwald (and you guys too), help keep things honest and push the inevitable political screw up further into the future; if we have the wisdom to listen to your concerns as well.
jnfr
Some Dem politicians embrace the leftie bloggers, but many do not, and particularly when we do something they don’t like, such as put up primary challengers that are more to our liking than the incumbents are. See the way they treated Ned Lamont and his supporters, or how Pelosi is reacting to Donna Edwards challenging Al Wynn.
Elected Democrats can be just as arrogant and inbred as Republicans.
The Other Steve
Agreed, and I’m all for reasonable criticism.
The unreasonable ones usually involve calling someone a corporate shill.
Jackmormon
RedState was set up to be an institution within the conservative movement. That was part of the vision from the outset, but I doubt that the founders really understood what limitations that mission was going to impose. Most of the original members who were more interested in the wilder back-and-forth have either quit or minimised their interactions on the site; those who remain are mostly either lockstep movement believers or professional Republicans.
Evinfuilt
That’s why sites like Balloon Juice and Dailykos matter.
Its a progressive cause out there, or at least a charge for a decent and well run Government. I know Kos says they are first for Democrats (and why they’re against Sheehan and her running against Pelosi) but at least they can see the difference between the different shades of Democrats, and help get those old, incompetent bafoons out before they ruin it for all of us.
SpotWeld
So, in a nutshell.
If: DailyKos is poltical talk on the internet
Then: RedState is politcal talk radio on the intenet?
jenniebee
I’m upset about that too. ’bout time we had a real socialist alternative, if you ask me.
Punchy
I’m vexed on whether this is a compliment or a slam.
Tim F.
No, I think that Malkin and Glenn Reynolds are political talk radio on the internet, and they succeed for the same reason that radio succeeds. I’d put Atrios in that category as well.
Like Daily Kos, RedState genuinely is a community rather than a noise box, and the reasons why one outstrips the other is more or less the point of this post. Among other things.
Billy K
Jody is right. Also, the Lefty blogosphere has ALWAYS been fragmented. I thought it would fraqcture entirely once we took control of Congress (especially since said Congress has failed to do almost ANYTHING we sent them there for), but it hasn’t. I think Left Blogistan is gonna be fine once Democrats control 2 of the 3 branches in 2008.
capelza
Billy K…the thing that “progressves” have to remember is that they are peeling peole away from the GOP that are not self defined as “progressives” and as independents and former Republicans move “left” it will get messier.
The Left blogosphere is going to be just as fractured…you’ll see Greens arguing with “DINO”s and all teh groups in between…though I can not for the life of me understand how one group comes to define the Democratic party. Of course this will and is happening. You are not a REAL Democrat!..No, YOU aren’t…
I just don’t want the purists to drive away others. Much like RedState has done. I say this a 30 year registered Democrat.
Like TOC noted, “corporate shill” gets tossed around very sloppily at Kos.
Face
Speakin’ of, I find it amusing to the nth degree that the same people praying that Justice Kennedy doesn’t become fertilizer are the same ones who will be praying he does….about two weeks into January, 2009.
Fe E
It was a compliment. I was a bit afraid though that you might have said pretty much everything that needs be said and destroy my “bored at work time killer.”
Michael van der Galiën
Why is it that he misspells his name time and again?
Patrick
One interesting difference that I think accurately reflects the “authoritarian/rabble” divide is organizing in the two communities behind challengers to their own party’s incumbents.
On DKos there have been multiple efforts to mobilize the community behind primary challengers for Democrats in safe districts who don’t reflect progressive values. The latest of these is the support for Donna Edwards in her primary challenge to Al Wynn in Maryland.
On RedState I can’t find much in the way of anything more than talking about so-and-so needing a challenger. Maybe I’m just not looking in the right place.
On the face of it, though, in one community you have people who are going to push for change as they want it from both within their party and against the Republicans and in the other community you have people are are going to push against the Democrats but who will “shut up and sing” (thanks, Ingraham) when it comes to pushing change in their own party.
stickler
Redstate is a colossal failure because the people running it are idiots, authoritarians, and cranks. The great big dollop of neo-Confederate craziness doesn’t help. Seriously: way too many of them are from the Old South and just cannot understand how annoying the rest of the country finds Baptist panty-sniffing politics to be. That crap doesn’t play too well west of the Plains and north of Texas, even among conservatives. It was bad politics in 2005; it’s hilariously stupid in 2007. 2008 will be an entertaining year to peek in on Redstate — just to watch the meltdown.
But just try telling them that. “Blam!” You’re gone. What kind of moron thinks that a great way to build a community site is to make a sport out of banning members? Easy: look at the sidebar at Redstate.
Jody
Part of what motivates the left blogosphere, and the left in general, is issues, whereas the right was motivated by the movement as a whole. This is one of the primary differences. The right has abandoned one position after another in it’s shrieking support for this dunderhead and his ‘movement’, to the point where they now fully support torturing people we have detained with no crime committed, and without due process. You ask a conservative what issues they believe in anymore, and you won’t get much beyond jingoistic platitudes and some poorly disguised racism.
The left has always been about the issues, and will continue to do so. We will bicker about which issues should have our attention, as we have always done, but we all get behind the ones that matter. The internet has only helped us find our voice, and give a common forum to formerly isolated groups.
Oh. And how do I do those neat quote boxes? Is it just BBCode? I’d try it but I’m a-feared of looking the fool.
Fe E
Just click the little right arrow above the copmment box and a very useful little tool bar opens up. Hell, even I have manged to post links without just pasting a 43 mile URL into a comment. The block quote thing rocks though. Seriously. Of course, with BJ’s comment format there really isn’t any other way to tell who is talking to who.
I know this sure to set a few folks off, but just in terms of web development, I really don’t think Democratic Underground has an equal.
Of course they don/t have this SWEEET toolbar to work with! Free Republic, ouch, that place is just a trainwreck.
ThymeZone
Funniest line you ever wrote.
I tell ya, I was beside myself. Split my sides, so to speak.
But didn’t Mort Sahl say it first?
LiberalTarian
Ya know, for a critique of writing skills, this post is nearly unintelligible in several places. Sigh. Yeah, yeah, Tim is not writing about coherent communicative ability per se. But, if the reader has to skip a sentence altogether because it doesn’t make sense, the writer has no business critiquing the writing skills of anyone else either on the left or the right.
Better writing, better readership. Better arguments, more effective discussions.
I do agree he has made salient points regarding the nature of the right and the left with regard to the party old guard. Just saying.
Tsulagi
Basic writing I could give you, but reasoning? Most of the time I see the math on RedState going along the line of 1+1+1=111. Except when it’s 492. Or whatever else pops into their head.
Yep, RS is a tightly regulated echo chamber 99.9% of the time. I would have said 100%, but I just read this post over there and the thread. The BEST EVER I’ve seen on RedState.
The topic is waterboarding. In his post, mbecker takes offense some call it torture, and basically takes the predictable position that we need to torture them there before they kill us here. All the rest of the chest-thumping Jack Bauer wannabes chime in their dittoes for all to see. Until a guy named Joe Carter shows up.
He goes through that thread kicking mbecker’s and all wannabe ass! Thomas and self-certified homophobe detector Jeff Emanuel try to slow him down, but Joe had none of that. He bitchslapped every faux chest thumper in his way until Moe finally closed the thread before Joe hurt them more. Wonder if that post and comments will vanish.
Obviously this Joe Carter must have a long association with RedState because anyone else saying what he did would have been banned way early. One of the many things Joe said to mbecker directly and others…
Amen, Joe. Amen.
Bobby Boy
“Liberal” bloggers will be in trouble when Dems sweep into office in 2009 only if the D.C. Dems continue to act like craven and spineless assholes whose only motivation is political calculation. If they go in like true progressive Democrats and start to do the people’s business RE health care, education, progressive taxation, protecting the Constitution etc., then there will be little to complain about.
Gus
I fucking loathe Red State. The few times I go over there, I see that they’re quick to ban for even relatively respectful disagreement. I loathe comment threads on lefty blogs when they’re highjacked by trolls, but I don’t see the Sadly, No! or Atrios folks banning any trolls except those who are borderline stalkers. Those assholes can eat a bag of dicks.
Gus
Tsulagi, I followed your link, and once again I remember why I hate Red State. I don’t see why the respect shown that site. They’re no better than the Hot Air assholes as far as I can see. Revolting torture apologists.
Jody
I wouldn’t call that trouble. The only thing that could unite the left blogosphere more than an incompetent right wing administration would be an incompetent LEFT wing admin. We LOVE our issues, and we will not abandon them just because our boy found his way into office. At least that’s the hope.
Jody
I did it. I am now net savvy. Hooray!
dom
Why does RedState suck? Look here.
Seriously, when it first launched it was a cool place. As a libertarian leaning Democrat I respect that it’s a GOP house and didn’t try to debate core principles, but for about a year they allowed commenters of all political stripes to have civilized discussions about electoral politics, strategy, etc. Then some of the original founders left and pompous douchebags like Erick and Thomas were allowed to wield the banhammer anytime a commenter disagreed with them.
I haven’t seen the original group of moderate liberal commenters on RedState in a while; worse, moderate conservatives like Obsidian Wings contributors Von and Charles Bird have almost entirely stopped commenting there. And really, why would they? It’s turned into a niche site for extremists.
And I’m not even going to bring up the whole Ben Domenench debacle.
scarshapedstar
Rofl:
“He Who May Not Be Named”?
Ron Paul is Voldemort!
(Does that make Kowalski gay?)