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You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / My Immigration Proposal

My Immigration Proposal

by Michael D.|  November 13, 20073:38 pm| 100 Comments

This post is in: Domestic Politics, Politics

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Robert Garrett writes in the Dallas Morning News:

While many GOP presidential hopefuls are quick to deplore illegal immigration, they should be careful, former U.S. Housing and Urban Development Secretary Henry Cisneros warned Monday.

They risk driving Hispanic voters into Democrats’ arms for years to come, he said.

Mr. Cisneros, in an interview before he spoke to the Hispanic Scholarship Consortium in Austin, said that though the Republicans use immigration to fire up their base, they may wind up deeply angering Hispanics.

“Those who have simply focused on security at the border and not on the other humane aspects” of the immigration issue offend Hispanics, he said.

I think that’s right, and I think that Bush (supported by McCain) had the most compassionate plan of all the Republicans – at least that I have seen so far, although it was still a horrible plan. But the danger is not just in losing votes. The real danger – not security, not “taking our jobs,” not votes – is the risk that we create a permanent sub-class in this country. I would even go so far as to say a subservient class. That scares me. And it’s wrong.

I drive to Alpharetta every day, and around Atlanta during the week, and what I see are (mostly) Mexican workers involved in manual labor, gardening, cleaning, dishwashing, and all those jobs we stereotypically attribute to people with little or no education. I’ve not seen one plan yet that fully addresses this, except the merit-based immigration bill that was roundly vilified by the Democrats because it interfered with the so-called “family reunification intent” of our current immigration policies.

On compassionate grounds, family-based immigration seems to be a good thing. But practically-speaking, it doesn’t work. We have relatively uneducated Hispanic population coming to the country, getting a menial job, eventually getting green cards and citizenship, and bringing their relatively uneducated families with them. Their families, in turn, will take similar jobs – or at least that’s been my observation. In the end, what you have are millions of Hispanic laborers, restaurant workers, and more – here for the benefit of the middle and upper classes. That, to me, is a dangerous, continuous cycle of poverty. Fortunately, if the political will is there, it’s one we can fix.

My preference would be for the merit-based system. That system (which, by the way, is the norm, and is quite effective in countries like Canada andothers) would work like this. According to Michael Chertoff, the new system:

calls for most green cards to be based on a merit system that counts heavily education, employment skills and experience in the United States. “Family [ties] will come in as a tie-breaker,” Chertoff said in a White House briefing May 17.

Shouldn’t this be exactly what we want? I would even support people who are already here illegally, and who would be willing to get an education, to qualify for this program without having to leave the country. I would support more student visas for Hispanics (and other groups too, but let’s focus on them) so that they can come here and get the education they cannot get back in their own country. Since Mexico seems determined to get an immigration bill through, we could work with them to create a Mexican-funded scholarship program to achieve that end, or use some of the aid we already give them anyway to fund it. When that person gets a good job, a green card, and can provide for his or her family, let that person bring the family in. I’m all for that.

Finally, let’s get rid of the one thing that is a massive incentive to make it to this country illegally. Repeal of Section 1 of the 14th Amendment:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

I would change it to say that at least one parent must be a citizen of the United States. The only intent of foreign-born parents who give birth here (with few exceptions) is to ensure their child has U.S. citizenship. It’s their ticket in.

We have a choice: We can drive anywhere in this country and see the latino population living in poverty conditions, or we can offer them an immigration bill with solid proposals that will offer a hand up and not a hand out. We’re spending billions on a system that keeps Hispanics at the bottom rung of society. Why not use that money effectively? What I want to see are latinos coming to this country and joining the business world in larger numbers. I would love to see them contribute to the scientific community in larger numbers. I want them to go to school, learn English, and have anything but the life I am sure the majority are living now. I don’t want this country to be in a situation where we continue to create what is quickly becoming the modern-day version of slavery. Is that a harsh comparison? I don’t know. I don’t think it is.

Do we need people to pick vegetables and wash dishes? Absolutely. I don’t believe the tripe that Americans won’t do this work. I don’t believe it for a second. When I was in my late teens and early 20’s, I did that work, and I’m as pasty white as you’ll get. And there are plenty of uneducated native born Americans who are willing to do it.

I know one thing for sure: If we don’t do something to change the family-based immigration system to a merit-based one, then in 20 years or less, we are going to be in the middle of a civil rights movement like we haven’t seen since the 60’s. I guarantee it. My guess though, is that the political parties are more interested in getting the latinos on side than they are providing any practical solutions to our shared immigration problem.

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Reader Interactions

100Comments

  1. 1.

    Bombadil

    November 13, 2007 at 3:53 pm

    This has been an issue no matter what the ethnic group has been. The Irish took the menial jobs until they could work their way in to the mainstream (over the course of years and generations). The Poles did too, and the Italians, as did the Chinese, the Japanese, the Southeast Asians. Every wave of immigrants has had to start at the bottom, fight deeply entrenched prejudice and assimilate into the mainstream. Many are still working for that acceptance.

    Don’t single out the Latinos like they’re some brand new species that magically appeared. They’re the next wave, that’s all.

    The first wave will have the toughest time. Their children will be more “American”. The grandchildren will find the ways of their grandparents “quaint” or slightly embarassing, and they’ll be fully Americanized.

    What causes problems are the people who come to this country without making the commitment to stay. The people who arrive without their families, take whatever jobs are available and send their money home. They are not becoming part of the society, and are not looking to remain here long-term. They are “outsiders” and intend to remain that way. The ones who are bringing their families here, sometimes at great cost, are the ones who truly want to be here, are looking for the new life, and are looking to get what they can, and make a contribution back. The family-based immigrants are, in fact, the ones that we want.

  2. 2.

    Dreggas

    November 13, 2007 at 4:00 pm

    Ah dear Michael, the minute you say “Merit Based” many see “Racist”.

    In my experience here in So-Cal, it’s much the same. The low pay jobs are filled mainly by Latinos, most of them first generation and the reason being is those jobs are easy to get and do not require you to be able to speak english (ie gardners) only the bosses need to speak it.

    Of course mention the idea that they should know english and, again, you are a racist. Yet if they came here knowing English they’d have a better opportunity at getting ahead because, while the DMV may print the drivers test in 15 different languages companies operate on one, for the most part and that is english.

    I like the scholarship idea, that one has promise, set it up much like we do for inner city students only offer it to “inner city” countries. I agree with the proposal regarding Anchor babies but again that probably makes me a racist.

  3. 3.

    Incertus (Brian)

    November 13, 2007 at 4:07 pm

    Don’t single out the Latinos like they’re some brand new species that magically appeared. They’re the next wave, that’s all.

    They’re not even the next wave. They’re the same wave that’s been coming for generations, and despite what anti-immigration folks like to argue, have been successfully integrating for all that time. The reason it seems different to some is because while the Irish and Italian and other ethnic waves ended, the Latino/a wave never has, and it never will–there are too many ties to this country and it’s too easy to get across the border.

    And what’s more important, we shouldn’t try to stop it. So much of Michael’s post seems to me to be filled with received wisdom that’s simply not accurate that I don’t know where to begin, other than to say that the stereotypes are fast and furious there, and they exist in large part because of the notion that Latino/a immigration is a relatively new phenomenon.

    Look–integration of immigrants basically works like this. First generation never quite integrates. The language barrier is, for most adults, insuperable; even when they make good faith efforts, it’s hard to get much more than a basic working handle on the language. Second generation is usually bilingual, and third generation is fully integrated and has often lost the language of their grandparents. But when you have a situation like ours with Mexico, it’s easy to think that they’re not trying to integrate because the language barrier never seems to go away–that’s a false impression, because it’s not that those who are here aren’t integrating; it’s that there’s always a new first generation showing up. The ones who are here for two and three generations are integrated–there are just new ones to take their place.

  4. 4.

    KG

    November 13, 2007 at 4:09 pm

    Bombadil is right about the Americanization. As an example, my mom’s family came over from Cuba in the early 60s. My grandparents worked very hard in jobs that were rather “menial”. My folks own their own business (without any education beyond “a couple of JC courses”). I’m a lawyer. That’s basically one and a half generations. On my dad’s side, I’m four generations removed from share croppers.

    And what makes “Latinos” even more difficult to peg is the very diverse group that makes up “Latinos”. Everything from my example above to families who have been in California since it was a Spanish territory to recent immigrants (legal or illegal).

    The real problem is that our last immigration reform took place in the mid-1980s, during the Cold War, in a very different world. No one in Washington seems capable of admitting that it is severely out-dated.

  5. 5.

    Zifnab

    November 13, 2007 at 4:13 pm

    What causes problems are the people who come to this country without making the commitment to stay. The people who arrive without their families, take whatever jobs are available and send their money home. They are not becoming part of the society, and are not looking to remain here long-term. They are “outsiders” and intend to remain that way. The ones who are bringing their families here, sometimes at great cost, are the ones who truly want to be here, are looking for the new life, and are looking to get what they can, and make a contribution back. The family-based immigrants are, in fact, the ones that we want.

    And that’s why the Bush plan is so tragically bad. “Guest Worker” is exactly what it sounds like. You come into my country as a “guest” and “work” until I no longer require your services. Then you go home.

    Sure, it sucks money out of the American Economy and sends it across the border. Sure, it creates a labor base that can’t even dream of unionizing without instantly wearing out its welcome. Sure, makes our border about as pores as you could ask for – practically begging every drug trafficer, bank robber, kidnapper, random evil SOB – to use it like a revolving door avoid-the-cops-free card.

  6. 6.

    les

    November 13, 2007 at 4:14 pm

    If we can prevent the repubs from destroying the public education system, the country will solve this “wave” just like it has in every fucking generation since the first immigrant generation that wasn’t primarily British. This is not fucking rocket science. The only routes to “permanent underclass” are some idiot guest worker system that (i) leaves families behind and/or (ii) denies access to the schools for workers and families; or continued emphasis on criminalizing immigrants, buffered by bogus stories of how much they “cost us.”

  7. 7.

    Jake

    November 13, 2007 at 4:25 pm

    in 20 years or less, we are going to be in the middle of a civil rights movement like we haven’t seen since the 60’s. I guarantee it.

    Assuming you’re right, you make civil rights movement sound like civil war. Why is that?

  8. 8.

    John Cole

    November 13, 2007 at 4:26 pm

    I think what you all fail to realize is that the Republican party is going to run on the issue of immigration out of necessity.

    What necessity, you say? The necessity caused by the fact that there is NOT ONE ISSUE the Bush administration and the current GOP have left unfucked for the Republican Party for a long time.

    Fiscal Conservatism- botched.
    Individual liberty/privacy- Schiavoed.
    Social security reform- Shit the bed there.
    Handling of the military- Hi, Iraq!
    Family values- Foley/Craiged/(insert Republican pervert of the week here)

    And so on and so forth. They have, quite literally, fucked up everything they have touched, and have no credibility on any issues. All they have left is the fear of terrorism and hordes of illegal immigrants. Expect them to use it.

  9. 9.

    Incertus (Brian)

    November 13, 2007 at 4:29 pm

    I think what you all fail to realize is that the Republican party is going to run on the issue of immigration out of necessity.

    And in the process, destroy what little chance they had of returning to majority status for the next generation, assuming the Democrats don’t somehow wind up to the idiot side of them on this. I realize that’s never a safe assumption, but the Tancredos of the Republican party have left precious little room to the idiot side of themselves for the Democrats to claim.

  10. 10.

    Buck B.

    November 13, 2007 at 4:31 pm

    My experience living in Chicago, which has a huge Mexican immigrant population, is that such sub-class status usually lasts only a single generation. The children of immigrants, both legal and illegal, generally move up to the middle class, especially if they’ve been imparted with the drive (and work ethic) that made their parents emigrate in search of a better life in the first place. Which also happens to be the pattern that immigration has followed for most of U.S. history.

    We already what is essentially a permanent sub-class among the (mostly black) urban poor. Personally, I haven’t seen much example of that among immigrant communities in Chicago.

  11. 11.

    sbgypsy

    November 13, 2007 at 4:36 pm

    When you mention “Merit based system”, I mourn all the high tech jobs that will be going to visa carriers, while citizens are either laid off or never hired. I just had graduated (IT major) when the corporations discovered that Indian folks were so very smart, and knew about computer science too!! Somehow all the entry level jobs were being snapped up by non-citizens who were prepared to work for hardly anything, just so they could live here and bring their families here.

    Oh Well….

  12. 12.

    J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford

    November 13, 2007 at 4:39 pm

    Buck B. Says:

    My experience living in Chicago, which has a huge Mexican immigrant population, is that such sub-class status usually lasts only a single generation. The children of immigrants, both legal and illegal, generally move up to the middle class, especially if they’ve been imparted with the drive (and work ethic) that made their parents emigrate in search of a better life in the first place. Which also happens to be the pattern that immigration has followed for most of U.S. history.

    We already what is essentially a permanent sub-class among the (mostly black) urban poor. Personally, I haven’t seen much example of that among immigrant communities in Chicago.

    November 13th, 2007 at 4:31 pm

  13. 13.

    J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford

    November 13, 2007 at 4:48 pm

    I hit “block quote” not “Submit Comment”.

    Anyway, I concur with Buck B. I live and work in Chicago and I don’t think the Hispanics are all that much different than the Polish, Italians and Irish – except that there are a lot more of them. I believe Chicago is just over 35% Black, about 33% White and about 30% Hispanic.

    When I was young my Italian and Polish friends had grandparents who didn’t speak English, parents who spoke English with a thick accent but spoke their first language in their homes, and children who spoke perfect English and “understood” their parent’s first language. Generally, my Polish and Greek friends were completely bi-lingual and my Italian friends spoke 1.5 languages.

  14. 14.

    Pug

    November 13, 2007 at 4:49 pm

    All they have left is the fear of terrorism and hordes of illegal immigrants. Expect them to use it.

    That’s right. It’s all they’ve got and it is a perfect wedge issue. However, there is a down side and they might want to ask Pete Wilson of California about that. Cisneros is right about that.

  15. 15.

    Pb

    November 13, 2007 at 4:51 pm

    The real danger – not security, not “taking our jobs,” not votes – is the risk that we create a permanent sub-class in this country. I would even go so far as to say a subservient class. That scares me. And it’s wrong.

    And if you think that’s wrong, you should see what the Republicans already did to the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands:

    The Northern Marianas Islands are also the site of another controversy involving Rep. John Doolittle (R-CA), Jack Abramoff, and Rep. Richard Pombo (R-CA) and the alleged links to the Saipan Garment Manufacturers Association and the Northern Mariana Islands, role in stopping legislation aimed at cracking down on sweatshops and sex shops” on the islands in 2001.

    The Northern Marianas Islands allegedly harbor the most abusive labor practices of anywhere in the United States. According to the progressive think tank American Progress Action Fund, “Human ‘brokers’ bring thousands there to work as sex slaves and in cramped sweatshop garment factories where clothes (complete with ‘Made in U.S.A.’ tag) have been produced for all the major brands.”

    Here’s a bit more:

    According to ABC’s 20/20 television program, Abramoff lobbied DeLay to stop legislation banning sex shops and sweatshops that forced employees to have abortions in the Northern Mariana Islands when Abramoff accompanied DeLay on a 1997 trip to the U.S. commonwealth. While on the trip, DeLay promised not to put the bill on the legislative calendar.[49]

    In 2000, the U.S. Senate unanimously passed a worker reform bill to extend the protection of U.S. labor and minimum-wage laws to the workers in the Northern Mariana Islands. DeLay, then the House Republican Whip, stopped the House from considering the bill.[50] DeLay later blocked a fact-finding mission planned by Rep. Peter Hoekstra by threatening Hoekstra with the loss of his subcommittee chairmanship.[49]

    So, nothing new or surprising here… it’s just what the Republican party stands for now–de-facto slavery, along with torture, graft, arms dealing, etc., etc.

  16. 16.

    Tax Analyst

    November 13, 2007 at 4:52 pm

    The first generation immigrants also tend to stand out more publicly – by the 2nd and 3rd generation many of the immigrants children and grand-children are barely noticeable beyond their surnames. My boss is the son of an immigrant and if he’s any part of a sub-class it’s probably one you wouldn’t mind being a part of.

    But as another commenter pointed out, if we continue to trash public education we put more than the children of immigrants at risk. If you want a “permanent underclass” there is no better route to it than closing doors on children because of where their parents are from or what color they are.

  17. 17.

    metalgrid

    November 13, 2007 at 4:54 pm

    Bombadil & Brian got it right. There isn’t much to add.

    As much as the Republicans beat the hate drum on ‘illegal’ immigrants, it affects the legal ones too, and I don’t doubt for a second that the intent is to affect any immigrant – not just the illegal ones.

  18. 18.

    Zifnab

    November 13, 2007 at 4:57 pm

    Ok, I’ll concede on major difference. As an immigrant Pol or German or Asian, I can’t hop in my car and drive back home again. Mexicans have that option, and its why a guest worker Mexican program can physically work, but a guest worker Indian program can’t. You can’t truck up a bunch of guys living 10,000 miles away and send them home like you can a bunch of guys living 100 miles away.

  19. 19.

    Andrew

    November 13, 2007 at 5:03 pm

    On compassionate grounds, family-based immigration seems to be a good thing. But practically-speaking, it doesn’t work. We have relatively uneducated Hispanic population coming to the country, getting a menial job, eventually getting green cards and citizenship, and bringing their relatively uneducated families with them. Their families, in turn, will take similar jobs – or at least that’s been my observation. In the end, what you have are millions of Hispanic laborers, restaurant workers, and more – here for the benefit of the middle and upper classes. That, to me, is a dangerous, continuous cycle of poverty. Fortunately, if the political will is there, it’s one we can fix.

    What a fucking patronizing post. And to top it off, one that has little connection to reality.

    Hispanics, like almost every immigrant group in American history, fully integrate with respect to language and class mobility by the 2nd and 3rd generations.

    Just because you live in the South, where a lot of the newest immigrants are coming for work, and see a lot of Hispanics working in menial labor, doesn’t mean that Hispanic families are somehow mired in poverty, that their children are going to be dishwashers.

    With a work ethic that requires sneaking across dangerous terrain, hiding from the police, working extremely long hours in tough conditions often in 2-3 jobs, do you really think these people will stay stuck in poverty?

  20. 20.

    Incertus (Brian)

    November 13, 2007 at 5:06 pm

    As an immigrant Pol or German or Asian, I can’t hop in my car and drive back home again. Mexicans have that option, and its why a guest worker Mexican program can physically work, but a guest worker Indian program can’t.

    That’s also why the wave of Mexican immigration has been going on so long, and why, not to put too fine a point on it, Canada’s merit-based system won’t work too well in the US. Canada doesn’t share a border with the economic equivalent of a Mexico–though if things continue as they have the last seven years, who knows.

  21. 21.

    Michael D.

    November 13, 2007 at 5:10 pm

    the minute you say “Merit Based” many see “Racist”.

    And those people are racist because they apparently don’t believe hispanics (or any non-white) is able to achieve anything. I’m not the racist.

  22. 22.

    Michael D.

    November 13, 2007 at 5:13 pm

    you make civil rights movement sound like civil war. Why is that?

    Only because you read it that way. I’m trying to AVOID another civil rights movement by suggesting a way to provide a path to equality that doesn’t exist. And ANYONE who believes that your average lower-class hispanic is equal in this country has blinders on.

  23. 23.

    Michael D.

    November 13, 2007 at 5:16 pm

    What a fucking patronizing post

    Given that you pretty much imply or outright say that on any post I write, I’m not surprised to hear you say it again.

    Got a better solution Andy? Or is yours just to let them stay poor for a couple generations? Good one.

  24. 24.

    Incertus (Brian)

    November 13, 2007 at 5:21 pm

    Got a better solution Andy? Or is yours just to let them stay poor for a couple generations? Good one.

    You’re not listening, Michael–they don’t stay poor for generations. That’s the impression you have, but it’s a false one.

  25. 25.

    Michael D.

    November 13, 2007 at 5:28 pm

    Brian: How do you know that? Our experience with immigration is with legal immigration. When the Irish started showing up, most came here legally and could speak english. They flourished. Most middle eastern people come here on student visas. They have a basic knowledge of english, and come here for education.

    Hispanic migrant workers are MUCH different. I would guess most know little english. They are not here to go to school. They have the chips stacked against them to begin with. It is a completely different situation that we have to fix.

    For what it’s worth, I could care less what the face of America looks like. In 200 years, we’re all going to have olive skin anyway – fine by me! :-) I cringe when people say that our heritage is being subverted (tell that to native Americans, eh) I just want the people who come here to have a fighting chance.

    As it stands, migrant workers who are undocumented come here, live in poverty because they send most of their money home, and nothing is changing.

    I think that’s awful

  26. 26.

    Michael D.

    November 13, 2007 at 5:33 pm

    And again, for what it’s worth, I’d be completely in favor of a North American union. After a few years of mandatory education in our schools about the different people who will be immigrating/emigrating, open the borders, baby!

  27. 27.

    Andrew

    November 13, 2007 at 5:41 pm

    Hispanic migrant workers are MUCH different. I would guess most know little english. They are not here to go to school. They have the chips stacked against them to begin with. It is a completely different situation thatwe have to fix.
    …
    As it stands, migrant workers who are undocumented come here, live in poverty because they send most of their money home, and nothing is changing.

    I think that’s awful

    I think your fantastic imaginary scenario sounds awful too.

    Now, let’s get back to the real world:
    More than 90% of the children of Hispanic immigrants speak English as their primary language. Most immigrants learn to speak English. Most Hispanic immigrants don’t graduate from high school because they’re here for work. Children of Hispanic immigrants graduate from high school at nearly the same rate as non-hispanic whites.

    These facts are all easy to find via google. Pew Hispanic, the Census, California state data, etc. But why bother doing we research when we can use our silly personal anecdotes to belittle an entire culture?

    Back to the original issues:
    We have a defacto merit based system of immigration via education and H1Bs. This system needs reform, largely to eliminate corporate control over the lives of these skilled immigrants, but Michael doesn’t address these issues.

  28. 28.

    Andrew

    November 13, 2007 at 5:45 pm

    I should also specifically point out that Michael’s proposal to eliminate birthright citizenship would create exactly the kind of immigrant underclass he claims to be so upset about.

    Without access to the education, health, and poverty prevention programs to which citizens are entitled, the children of immigrants won’t be graduating from high school, learning English, and getting good jobs at their current rate.

    It’s an absurd solution based on a completely incorrect understanding of the situation.

  29. 29.

    akaoni

    November 13, 2007 at 5:46 pm

    I think the problem with your suggestion is that, just like the whole seal the border mentality ignores the basic economics that drive the immigration situation. Merit based immigration is essentially what we have now. We mainly give working visas to educated individuals from favored countries, there are a few other programs here and there but mainly visas are issued to educated (read: MDs, Engineers, etc.)immigrants. The problem is that there is a large supply of labor who will work for low wages and a large demand for that low wage labor here in the US. As long as the disparity in wealth exists between the US and Mexico (and other poorer countries) people will come to the US seeking work legally or illegaly. It’s Adam Smith’s invisible hand, and there’s little we can do to stop it. What we can do is try to implement policy that is in step with the market forces at work in driving the economic migration to the US. Namely, policy that allows safe, economically driven people to come to work here in the US and contribute to the economy via. taxes and wealth generation.

  30. 30.

    Michael D.

    November 13, 2007 at 5:55 pm

    Merit based immigration is essentially what we have now. We mainly give working visas to educated individuals from favored countries,

    Wrong. Visa does not = immigration.

  31. 31.

    Darkrose

    November 13, 2007 at 5:56 pm

    Hispanic migrant workers are MUCH different. I would guess most know little english. They are not here to go to school.

    No–but their kids are, and that’s where I think you’re missing the point.

    I work at a university in the California Central Valley. At a rough guess, 2/3 of the students here are from families where English isn’t the first language. If I go anywhere on campus, I hear conversations in a mix of English and some other language, because the students have learned English to communicate with their teachers and friends, and then they switch back to Spanish or Tagalog or Mandarin or Vietnamese when they go home for breaks. Their kids will probably speak English as their first languages, while their parents try to get them to learn the language of their grandparents’ country.

    Where it breaks down is when the parents have to keep their kids at home and not send them to school because they’re terrified that the INS is going to come after them if their kids are enrolled. That’s what happened in New Bedford, MA after an INS raid last year–parents who hadn’t been picked up took their kids out of school and went into hiding.

  32. 32.

    Michael D.

    November 13, 2007 at 6:02 pm

    Gates Foundation (1991–2002): There is a wide disparity in the graduation rates of white and minority students. In the class of 2002, about 78% of white students graduated from high school with a regular diploma, compared to 56% of African-American students and 52% of Hispanic students.

    Drop-out rates: In 2000, about 530,000 Hispanic 16-to-19-year-olds were high school dropouts, yielding a dropout rate of 21.1 percent for all Hispanic 16-to-19-year-olds (U.S. Census Bureau, 2003). The Latino youth dropout rate was more than three times greater than the 2000 non-Hispanic “white alone” dropout rate of 6.9 percent.

    That was just the first couple links of a Google search. If I wasn’t going out to dinner, I’d find many more.

    Next!

    (Andrew: I submit you are a liar and are more interested in getting votes for Democrats than in raising the living standards for hispanic people entering this country.)

  33. 33.

    les

    November 13, 2007 at 6:04 pm

    Brian: How do you know that? Our experience with immigration is with legal immigration. When the Irish started showing up, most came here legally and could speak english. They flourished.

    It’s stuff like this that makes me believe you really are a republican. Thousands of Irish were dumped in the water off U.S. shores by the then-equivalent of coyotes. They weren’t fucking English, and they didn’t speak it. They were illegal as all get out, and your spiritual forebears made the same fact free arguments you do. The first generation didn’t flourish, they lived in horrible circumstances and performed the worst of jobs, in tenements and worse all over but mainly East Coast. Hundreds of thousands of illegals have and do enter this country from all over. Your solution–keep out all the poor ones, just let in the ones like me–is not just unworkable but prejudicial and un-American. I suppose you think all the Mong and Vietnamese (legal and illegal) are flourishing in the Midwest, speaking perfect English with a Norse accent and playing upper middle class. What a twit.

  34. 34.

    Andrew

    November 13, 2007 at 6:06 pm

    Wrong. Visa does not = immigration.

    Unwrong! Even H1B visas, which are non-immigrant visa, are dual intent visas that allow the worker to apply for a green card.

    The main merit based mechanism is the ~150,000 slots for immigrants via employment-based visa (outside of H1B), reserved for specialists and highly educated individuals.

  35. 35.

    Michael D.

    November 13, 2007 at 6:11 pm

    Even H1B visas, which are non-immigrant visa, are dual intent visas that allow the worker to apply for a green card.

    Wrong! I don’t know the stats. They’re hard to find. But I bet most H1-B Visa holders don’t stay past their visa expiry!

  36. 36.

    Michael D.

    November 13, 2007 at 6:12 pm

    As a non-imigrant work permit holder, I know a little about visas – except, apparently, how many H1-Bers stay on a green card.

    BTW, I would love a link to that, if only to refute Andy.

  37. 37.

    Andrew

    November 13, 2007 at 6:18 pm

    (Andrew: I submit you are a liar and are more interested in getting votes for Democrats than in raising the living standards for hispanic people entering this country.)

    Michael, firstly, go fuck yourself. Your post sucks and you can’t handle getting called out on your bullshit.

    Let’s address your bullshit directly:

    Drop-out rates: In 2000, about 530,000 Hispanic 16-to-19-year-olds were high school dropouts, yielding a dropout rate of 21.1 percent for all Hispanic 16-to-19-year-olds (U.S. Census Bureau, 2003). The Latino youth dropout rate was more than three times greater than the 2000 non-Hispanic “white alone” dropout rate of 6.9 percent.

    If you had read beyond the opening blurb, you’d see that the article also states:

    The aggregate Hispanic high school dropout rate is a poor indicator of U.S. secondary school performance. Many of the 530,000 Hispanic high school dropouts are recently arrived immigrants who have never been enrolled in U.S. schools … They meet the status dropout definition, but that does not imply that they necessarily dropped out of U.S. secondary schools.

  38. 38.

    S

    November 13, 2007 at 6:20 pm

    What no one here is addressing are “illegal” immigrants brought here as children. There are great obstacles in the way of their education. For example, some are afraid to apply to college because of their lack of a social security number. Even if they finish high school in a state, in many cases they do not qualify for in-state tuition for college.

  39. 39.

    Michael D.

    November 13, 2007 at 6:25 pm

    For example, some are afraid to apply to college because of their lack of a social security number. Even if they finish high school in a state, in many cases they do not qualify for in-state tuition for college.

    That’s what I want to end. I would love to see a scholarship program in place to account for these people and get them the education they so deserve.

    America is supposed to be a place where people have opportunity. Yes, we’ve had a wave of people come here illegaly, but we need to integrate them, and not have them working in fields. That’s a disaster – especially when there’s an opportunity to stop spending so much on fences and getting these people educated and introduced into a society where they can make a biggere difference than in the farming industry. I know hispanics, and I know they have a better work ethic than Americans.

    Imagine if they had the opportunity to go to college and become doctors, MBAs, scientists, engineers.

    Money well spent, in my opinion – no matter what Andrew says.

  40. 40.

    Andrew

    November 13, 2007 at 6:32 pm

    magine if they had the opportunity to go to college and become doctors, MBAs, scientists, engineers.

    Money well spent, in my opinion – no matter what Andrew says.

    Seriously, John and Tim, this strawman flinging bullshit artist is who you brought in?

    Yes, Michael, I’m opposed to poor kids having the opportunityy for education. I think we should process them into Soylent green.

  41. 41.

    Perry Como

    November 13, 2007 at 6:33 pm

    I know hispanics, and I know they have a better work ethic than Americans.

    Heh, awesome.

  42. 42.

    Pb

    November 13, 2007 at 6:34 pm

    Money well spent, in my opinion – no matter what Andrew says.

    Why does Andrew hate teh children!

  43. 43.

    Pb

    November 13, 2007 at 6:35 pm

    Oh damn, Andrew beat me to it, too.

    It’s PEOPLE!

  44. 44.

    Michael D.

    November 13, 2007 at 6:42 pm

    Yes, Michael, I’m opposed to poor kids having the opportunityy for education.

    Andrew, I actually believe you are. I’m sorry. I think you would rather keep Hispanics in their place and play them as victims so they’ll vote for Democrats. I think that’s disgustingof YOU. You should be ashamed of the way you think of people and how they can contribute to your political process. I believe you are more interested in a poor hispanic Dem vote than a hispanic with opportunity that you can’t manipulate.

    I don’t give a fuck who they vote for. I want them to be part of the process as contributing, able members. Sorry if you feel differently because of your partisan political affiliation.

  45. 45.

    Incertus (Brian)

    November 13, 2007 at 6:45 pm

    Brian: How do you know that? Our experience with immigration is with legal immigration. When the Irish started showing up, most came here legally and could speak english. They flourished. Most middle eastern people come here on student visas. They have a basic knowledge of english, and come here for education.

    les slapped the stupid out of this comment up above, so I’m just going to point out that with Latinos we’re talking about a lot more than just a single wave of immigrants. When I say Latinos have been immigrating into what is now the US for generations, I’m unnecessarily limiting myself. Think more than two hundred years.. Think of how many people in this country have Latino heritage and may have no freaking idea they have it. Think of how many people in the phone book have last names one might associate with Latino heritage while the owners of those phone numbers couldn’t even begin to tell you how long they’ve been in the US.

    The mechanism I described above where the third generation is nearly fully integrated just is. That’s the way it works, and it has worked that way for over a hundred years. The grandparents or great-grandparents or further back of those Rodriguezes that talk with a Boston accent, the ones who came across a hundred years ago probably didn’t learn English, but their kids did, and so did their kids, and so did theirs. The people you’re seeing in the menial jobs speaking Spanish are most likely first generation immigrants, and their kids will be speaking English–just like my kids would be speaking Spanish before I would if I immigrated to Bolivia.

  46. 46.

    The Other Steve

    November 13, 2007 at 6:47 pm

    I think that’s right, and I think that Bush (supported by McCain) had the most compassionate plan of all the Republicans – at least that I have seen so far,

    I suppose if you consider institutionalizing slavery as compassion.

    But considering the other alternatives given by Republicans, yes, I suppose it’s a true statement.

  47. 47.

    Michael D.

    November 13, 2007 at 6:50 pm

    Think of how many people in this country have Latino heritage and may have no freaking idea they have it. Think of how many people in the phone book have last names one might associate with Latino heritage while the owners of those phone numbers couldn’t even begin to tell you how long they’ve been in the US.

    Those aren’t the people I am talking about. You’re talking about people who came here legally and took advantage of all the amenities available to legal immigrants. I’m talking about a slave class that is coming here illegally, only to send money back home.

    I want those people to have a hope in hell of succeeding as all our legal immigrants have.

  48. 48.

    Michael D.

    November 13, 2007 at 6:53 pm

    But considering the other alternatives given by Republicans, yes, I suppose it’s a true statement.

    Yes, I am being comparitive. It sucks no matter how you spin it. See my comment(s) above. I want Hispanics to do well in this country. I don’t want them to be the hotel maids, veggie pickers, and general subservients they are now. It disgusts me.

  49. 49.

    Incertus (Brian)

    November 13, 2007 at 6:55 pm

    Those aren’t the people I am talking about. You’re talking about people who came here legally and took advantage of all the amenities available to legal immigrants. I’m talking about a slave class that is coming here illegally, only to send money back home.

    What–you think illegal immigration started ten years ago or something? You think that the parents of all those all second and third generation Latinos in college right now came across with papers? Jesus Effing Christ–there was an amnesty for illegal immigrants during the Reagan administration! And those people and their kids became solid citizens, just like this batch will become solid citizens if we give them an effing chance.

  50. 50.

    jake

    November 13, 2007 at 6:56 pm

    I’m trying to AVOID another civil rights movement by suggesting a way to provide a path to equality that doesn’t exist.

    Again, I ask, Why? What (in your view) features of a civil rights movement require avoidance?

  51. 51.

    Oms

    November 13, 2007 at 6:57 pm

    Why do immigrants do the shit work in the first place? The truth is that Americans and Canadians don’t want to be gardener, and work at jobs like that. The other thing that you have to remember is that the success of a capitalist system depends on workers who are willing to be taken advantage of, in order to supply cheap labour for industry. The jobs that are typically taken by non-English speakers are usually those jobs that must be done and done cheaply. To say that immigration et al will cure this problem is just ignorant. Free market principles in a capitalist economy applies to jobs, also. If WASPS aren’t willing to do the “shit” work, then someone has to and they will get paid shitty wages for it. This problem will always be around…and subsequent generations will either work their way out of those jobs or remain…why do some stay and others go? Luck, hard work…a lot of speculation doesn’t chsnge the fact that some will do it and others won’t…

  52. 52.

    g-rant

    November 13, 2007 at 7:01 pm

    Minor point, but:

    When the Irish started showing up, most came here legally and could speak english.

    Not entirely true. Many Irish immigrants were from poorer areas where Irish was still spoken.

  53. 53.

    jake

    November 13, 2007 at 7:02 pm

    Brian: How do you know that? Our experience with immigration is with legal immigration. When the Irish started showing up, most came here legally and could speak english. They flourished.

    I hope you’re talking about Canukistan because in America we also had non-Irish, non-English speaking people who came to this country (legally) and those funny speaking Irish (and them other Cat’licks) were used to whip up anti-furriner sentiment that culminated in Prohibition.

  54. 54.

    Michael D.

    November 13, 2007 at 7:02 pm

    Again, I ask, Why? What (in your view) features of a civil rights movement require avoidance?

    I’m not saying avoidance! Hell, I’m gay, I’m all about civil rights. I’m just saying I want to avoid a situation where civil rights are denied in the first place! I think my immigration proposal, while not perfect, is a fuck of a lot better than what’s on the table. Give these people a chance, and avoid what happened in the 60’s because we were too stupid to accept black people as productive, full citizens. Sheeesh.

  55. 55.

    Tom Hilton

    November 13, 2007 at 7:17 pm

    But the danger is not just in losing votes. The real danger – not security, not “taking our jobs,” not votes – is the risk that we create a permanent sub-class in this country.

    Exactly right. But you know what creates that sub-class? It’s not the immigration–it’s the illegality. As long as there’s a large class of people defined as ‘illegal’–and thus effectively deprived of any of the protections afforded workers under the law–they’ll be exploited by employers, and it’ll drive down the wages of other workers.

    Here’s a better proposal: if you want a job, and you haven’t been convicted of a crime, you get a work permit–period. You get the full benefit of US and state labor protections. You compete with other workers on a level field. You work hard and you play by the rules, and you get a stake in the system–because you’re exactly the kind of citizen we want. You commit a crime, and you get deported–which is actually a whole lot easier to do if we’re not squandering resources trying to catch and deport (or keep out) millions of people who haven’t done anything wrong other than try to make a living.

  56. 56.

    jake

    November 13, 2007 at 7:27 pm

    I’m just saying I want to avoid a situation where civil rights are denied in the first place!

    OK, stop right there, you’re finally making sense … oh damn.

    Give these people a chance, and avoid what happened in the 60’s because we were too stupid to accept black people as productive, full citizens. Sheeesh.

    Um. “What happened in the 60s” (although it started a bit before that) resulted in African-Americans being accepted as full productive citizens. And maybe you haven’t noticed but the CRM for non-legal immigrants has already started.

  57. 57.

    MNPundit

    November 13, 2007 at 7:42 pm

    I’m Hispanic. I worked my through undergrad on scholarships and being a janitor for the school. You know who I worked with for 5 years? Pakistanis. Bangladeshis. Indians. All well-off international students. ALL. Some of us worked together for YEARS.

    Number of Americans besides me? 2. In all that time, with all that turnover, there were 2, one white guy, one black guy.

  58. 58.

    grumpy realist

    November 13, 2007 at 7:58 pm

    Also from Chicago. I love the fact that I go to the local grocery stores and get aisles with 20 types of pickled herring on one side and 30 types of salsa on the other. Here in Oak Park I’m just as liable to hear Russian as I am English. Fantastic.

    What we really need to to is clean up the bloody INS, which is the ultimate definition of incompetence and Kafkaesque stupidity. I got to watch my boyfriend–who was a physicist at the Institute for Advanced Studies–yeah, the same place Einstein was at–deal with the inaninity, bloody-mindedness and outright contempt that the INS has for anyone who come in contact with it. Talk about totally, totally fucked.

    I’d say, that given the N hundreds of miles of border between Mexico and the US, we are being bloody stupid if we think we can “control” it in any way except the most minimal. I’d open the whole system up and make it as simple as possible.

    The problem is the same Republicans who squawk bloody murder about “illegal immigrants” are the same who will squawk “terrorists slipping over the borders!” if we try to make the whole INS process simple and sweet.

  59. 59.

    Enlighted Layperson

    November 13, 2007 at 8:07 pm

    It seems to me there is another problem with a “merit system” if we look for a moment beyond our own borders. When Michael is proposing to do is to drain off the educated and skilled population of foreign countries while cutting off any means of escape for the poor, uneducated, and unskilled. That feels downright parasitic, much more so than exploiting poor immigrants as unskilled laborers. Massive outmigration from countries like Ireland, with immigrants sending money home to relatives (that’s nothing new either) not only provided the US with needed unskilled laborers, it raised the standard of living in the Old Country as well.

    In the long run, the only thing that will end Mexican immigration to the US is an improvement in conditions in Mexico so that people there no longer feel the need to come here. That’s how other waves of immigration ended. A “merit-based” system of depriving other countries of their skilled workers and trapping the unskilled at home will only increase the pressure of unequal wages that drive illegal immigration in the first place.

  60. 60.

    sujal

    November 13, 2007 at 8:52 pm

    I love how Michael accuses Andrew of less than honorable motives but doesn’t actually respond to the significant number of factual criticisms of his post. The generational issue? ignored. The fact that many Irish spoke Gaellic rather than English? Ignored. The factual issues with the links he provided about Hispanic graduation rates? Didn’t feel the need to respond.

    Dude, stop attacking everyone and engage us. Do you think you were wrong about anything you said?

    I also found this statement from Michael telling:

    I know hispanics, and I know they have a better work ethic than Americans.

    That statement says so much about your assumptions and soft bigotry than anything else in your “plan.” That you read that into a statement about immigrants who worked hard to enter the country, then lump an entire ethnicity (that, as others have pointed out, is multi-generational) into that same group is absurd and insulting.

    As for your “plan”, I would personally be against any proposal that eliminated birthright citizenship. As the child of immigrants, I can’t think of not being an American citizen. It’s important to me, as it has been the physical manifestation of my identity as an American first, Indian second.

    It accelerates integration by easing integration into the workforce and normal life for children of immigrants and by giving their children a stake and a say in this country.

    Sujal

  61. 61.

    Randolph Fritz

    November 13, 2007 at 8:56 pm

    Well, to begin with, the reason for the big recent influx of Mexicans is the collapse of Mexican agriculture. They’re starving at home, in other words, and willing to risk death to cross the border. The reasons for the collapse of Mexican agriculture I do not fully understand but include right-wing policies upon the part of the Mexican federal government and US exports of subsidized agricultural products.

    Allowing the immigration of wealthy, educated Mexicans is not going to make much difference, as you might guess; they mostly already can immigrate, and most of them are perfectly happy in Mexico. Mexico has excellent universities; one can get a good education there–the only reason to come to the USA for an education is at the graduate level in some specialties.

    The reason birthright citizenship is in the constitution is to allow African-Americans the right of citizenship which Dred Scott denied them. The alternative where you have generations of non-citizens living in the USA (as with Turks in Germany) is exactly what you say you want to avoid.

    “I don’t believe the tripe that Americans won’t do this work.” But Americans won’t do it below the minimum wage, without worker’s comp., without the ability to leave and find another job, and so on. The Bush bill basically “allowed” Mexicans to take the lowest wage jobs, effectively knocking the bottom out of the US job market. Real loser of an idea, there.

    Dear gods, man. Think. Think!

  62. 62.

    Randolph Fritz

    November 13, 2007 at 8:57 pm

    “All they have left is the fear of terrorism and hordes of illegal immigrants. Expect them to use it.”

    Bingo. Bully for you, John.

  63. 63.

    DR

    November 13, 2007 at 9:09 pm

    There is a “simple” solution to the “permanent underclass” problem: it’s called EDUCATION. But it requires political will, the willingness to accept a language other than English as acceptable, and the overall societal evaluation of education as a core value, not as some side value, such as the possession of a BMW might be.

    Think about this one; I don’t think most Americans are capable of thinking in terms as subtle as these…

    OH and by the way, my native language is NOT English… yet I can make sense in your language, and surpass most of you in the mastery of your own tongue. Ask yourselves this: Am I simply slave to my station, or have I truly earned it through intensity and effort?

  64. 64.

    Enlightened Layperson

    November 13, 2007 at 9:36 pm

    I second Randolph Fritz. In the long run, the only way to stop mass Mexican immigration to the US is to narrow the wage gap between the two countries so people no longer want to leave Mexico.

    The sort of “merit-based” immigration program Michael is proposing effectively means draining Mexico (or other countries) of their educated and skilled populations while trapping the poor, uneducated, and unskilled at home. Certainly I fail to see the compassion in trapping the uneducated and unskilled in permanent poverty on the Mexican side of the border to keep it away from us.

  65. 65.

    liberal

    November 13, 2007 at 9:43 pm

    oms wrote,

    The other thing that you have to remember is that the success of a capitalist system depends on workers who are willing to be taken advantage of, in order to supply cheap labour for industry.

    Nope.

    Like anything else, if the supply doesn’t keep up with the demand, then the price of the good being supplied (here, labor) will be bid up.

    Which IMHO is a good thing.

  66. 66.

    Enlightened Layperson

    November 13, 2007 at 9:45 pm

    Michael, I don’t understand why you are so angry at Andrew. You say you fear Hispanic immigrants becoming an permanently subordinate group mired in poverty. Andrew and others have expressed the view that your fears are exaggerated. You respond by accusing them of wanting them to keep Hispanic immigrants down so they will vote Democrat. I see nothing whatever in their posts to support that charge. And in any event, Hispanic immigrants, no matter how wealthy, are going to reliably vote Democrat for some time to come. Tom Tancredo saw to that.

  67. 67.

    Peter Johnson

    November 13, 2007 at 10:22 pm

    You say you fear Hispanic immigrants becoming an permanently subordinate group mired in poverty.

    Historically, this is what has happened when too many members of the same ethnic group come into a country at once. Which is just what would happen under the Kennedy-McCain amnesty plan.

    I wouldn’t county on them voting democratic though…not once they get off welfare.

  68. 68.

    Enlightened Layperson

    November 13, 2007 at 10:31 pm

    Peter Johnson,

    If you want Hispanics to vote Republican, do yourself a favor and gag Tom Tancredo.

  69. 69.

    Peter Johnson

    November 13, 2007 at 10:32 pm

    If you want Hispanics to vote Republican, do yourself a favor and gag Tom Tancredo.

    Agreed. The guy is a nut.

  70. 70.

    Randolph Fritz

    November 13, 2007 at 10:37 pm

    One other thought for you: one of the lesser reasons for coming to the USA is that, even as bad off as Mexican migrants who don’t come under the auspices of the USCIS are, they still have the chance to make money and save money; that’s not something that exists in appallingly-corrupt, class-dominated Mexico. This may warm the cockles of your libertarian heart.

  71. 71.

    incontrolados

    November 13, 2007 at 10:50 pm

    Merit based immigration is a brain drain on other countries and would lead to — IMHO — to more imbalance rather than less. (Sorry I haven’t read the comments since I left work, but reading the last few leads me to believe this is still a live topic.)

    Michael, I work with internationals every day — I teach ESL. We get all kinds. You see the Hispanics/Latinos gathering on the corners and doing construction work. And yeah, they get screwed often enough. It’s not their fault. It’s the labor laws here.

    Other immigrant communities have other ways of networking employment. Some have none. I cannot tell you haow many ‘students’ from different countries get here on ‘student’ visas and then melt into the network. One lucrative venue for that here in Houston is valet parking. While the Hispanics are out on the corner, the Arab immigrants (I think you refered to their English skills — give me a break) just have different connections. It’s midless word and they get screwed either way.

    I’ve taught a large number of Hispanics/Latinos who come here to get an education — usually a master’s — Tawainese get their under grads here, Mainland Chinese and Koreans mostly drink, North Africans get in on student visas and stay to work . . . I could go on and on.

    I’ve noticed that you use ‘we’ in a lot of your posts. Are you a green card holder or are you a Canadian? Please define what you mean by ‘we’ if possible. The Canadians I met in Mexico were opportunists. Are you one of them?

  72. 72.

    incontrolados

    November 13, 2007 at 10:56 pm

    Yipes, with that lesson on linking, could we get a preview button added to the long list of things rarely used?

    Sorry for all the typos/ignorance (depending on yr thinkin’).

  73. 73.

    stickler

    November 13, 2007 at 11:10 pm

    I guess Randolph Fritz got to this, but I have to pile on:

    If WASPS aren’t willing to do the “shit” work, then someone has to and they will get paid shitty wages for it.

    Every time I hear a version of “WASPs won’t do this work …” I want to scream out the mandatory codicil: “… at that wage!” Meatpacking plants in 1975 were staffed by unionized American workers. Now they’re 80% staffed by non-union, frequently illegal immigrant, workers. We have, in the last thirty years, re-created the situation of the 1890s, where a vast army of the underpaid and overworked existed to fill any gaps caused by labor solidarity (especially strikes). This situation was only rectified by World War I, and then the New Deal.

    We’ve also created a situation where the economy is actually being warped by the presence of so much minimum-wage (and below) labor. How many Americans would have even considered hiring lawn maintenance companies (!) to mow their lawns in the 1960s? Garden services that show up every week? Now it’s commonplace, and that’s because there’s lots of people who work cheap and don’t speak enough English to complain to the Labor department. Cheap, plentiful, pliant labor encourages industrial and commercial laziness. Why pay for technological solutions when you can hire two dozen Mexicans to do the grunt work? Special bonus: if they’re illegal, you can fire them any time you like!

    It’s not a coincidence that our glorious post-1945 economic expansion — with a growing middle class, and a vibrant union movement — occurred during a period of historically-low immigration levels. Companies had to deal with unions, because they had no choice.

    Now they do: hire from the armies of the new immigrants. And what happens to the American middle class? (Hispanic, WASP, Kraut, Rooskie, Chinese, doesn’t matter.)

    Business answers: “Talk to the invisible hand, chumps!”

  74. 74.

    Bob In Pacifica

    November 13, 2007 at 11:50 pm

    I don’t understand why people are so worried about people coming here to take American jobs when so many American jobs have been sent overseas to foreigners. The the old okey doke again. And the dumb shits fall for it once again.

  75. 75.

    David Schraub

    November 14, 2007 at 1:51 am

    Michael: I’m not in the habit of promoting my own posts, but I do recommend that you read PG’s story of what would have happened to her and her sister under your proposal in the comments to my reaction to this post.

  76. 76.

    Nancy Irving

    November 14, 2007 at 2:32 am

    What “continuous cycle of poverty”? This post exhibits a commonly-held fallacy, i.e., that current immigrants are in some great, essential way “different” from the earlier immigrants who were your and my ancestors.

    Those who come from Mexico today will work construction, landscaping, janitorial etc. A few will start businesses and get rich; the rest, if they stay, their kids will be cops and firemen and secretaries. Their grandchildren will be lawyers, doctors and accountants. Just like all the other immigrant groups that preceded them.

    And spare me the “but these people are different” cr*p. Use Google and check out how Benjamin Franklin was in a panic two hundred years ago because the Pennsylvania Dutch were DESTROYING THE ANGLO-SAXON CULTURE OF PENNSYLVANIA!!!! Conservatives have no imagination, thus they *always* think the latest immigrants are “different.”

    Look, my grandparents on one side were French Canadian. I’m not sure they came over the border legally. In those days (and even, among some today) these “Francos” were known as the “white niggers of New England.” Along with Jews, Italians and Irish, they worked crummy factory jobs before the age of unionization–as today, employers were only too glad to get cheap immigrant labor–and, like the Jews, Italians and Irish were considered to be unassimilated and unassimilable. (They clawed their way up to being small shopkeepers; their son went to Harvard on the GI bill and became a law professor.)

    Get wise to your prejudices and your stereotypes. Sheesh.

  77. 77.

    Nancy Irving

    November 14, 2007 at 2:36 am

    Oh, and by the way, you’re worried about creating a permanent underclass, then suggest we do away with citizenship rights for all who are born here? Do you listen to what you’re saying? Check out how this has worked in Europe.

  78. 78.

    Nancy Irving

    November 14, 2007 at 2:39 am

    And this “merit” cr*p. Wages for college graduates have been stagnant for decades. H*ll, wages for *engineers* have been stagnant for decades. The only place jobs are being created in the U.S. is at the *bottom. But you want to decrease low-skilled immigration, and increase the number of engineers etc. coming in? Lord give me strength.

  79. 79.

    bago

    November 14, 2007 at 3:20 am

    I am all for more h1b visas even if it only means I get to work with intelligent people, no matter how thick the accent is. Less homegrown catchphrase spouting idiots for the win!

  80. 80.

    Chuck Butcher

    November 14, 2007 at 4:09 am

    My greatest fear for the nation regarding this issue is the creation of a serf class, that is entirely unacceptable.

    Then there is this, 30% of illegal workers work in construction, construction wages are at 50-60% of 1983 adjusted for inflation. I am intimately familiar with this situation because it is my industry, I won’t bother with meat processing, etc which I am less familiar with. The gardener, picker stereotype is inaccurate and racist crap. I don’t care which side of the issue you come down on, race has not one thing to do with it. What has a whole bunch to do with it is who gets to suffer the consequences. That is the piece that gets left out.

    Construction was historically, 20th century, the gateway out of poverty, that is no longer the case. Legal workers watch their wages decrease in a flooded market, a market flooded by those with no legal right to be in the market. No product market is somehow magically immune to supply/demand forces, and the product construction workers have is their labor. The outcome of the toleration for this market flooding is that legal residents who happen to be construction workers will pay for your tolerance, they will be the segment of society who suffers.

    There is no magic formula that takes the suffer quotient out of the issue, somebody will pay. If you do not get that then you are too ideologically emotionally bound to bother having a discussion with. Magic is not an option, realism may open doors to some sort of solution. The very first decision is who gets to pay? That in its self will define the direction.

    I read all kinds of emotional crap above, not a single argument made on the basis of reality. It is not about who is educatable, who is what race, who speaks what language, not a single bit of that is relevant unless you’re a racist pig. Racist appologists, racist open borders, racist xenophobes, makes no difference. Somebody is screwed – now who is it?

    Maybe it would pay a few of you to reference the Homestead Mine as a real concrete example. Maybe it would pay a few of you to check what it is that you define as humane when you only focus on one element. It is exactly true that there are jobs “Americans won’t take” at the wage rate offered, that is the key right there – wage rate offered. The price of a new home is around 20% labor, other products are even lower in percentage costs, including your strawberries. You can pretend to yourselves that the labor provided by illegals is required by our economy, but real cost analysis says “bullshit.”

  81. 81.

    grumpy realist

    November 14, 2007 at 10:13 am

    Michael, I think it was Mark Twain who said “only editors and people with tapeworms get to use the imperial “we”‘

  82. 82.

    jh

    November 14, 2007 at 12:01 pm

    Chuck,

    The problem is not with the end consumers of the homes and strawberries, it is with the employers who rather than pay to have their labor needs met, chose to manipulated the market by setting up this system of neo-serfdom in the first place.

    This is not an illegal immigration problem, so much as it is a corrupt employer problem.

    As long as people know there is a demand for their labor, they will continue to risk death, arrest and unimaginable exploitation to come to this country.

    And while it is true that by the 2nd or 3rd generation a certain cohort of immigrants will be assimilated, the seeminglgy endless supply of new cheap labor will take its place to keep wages depressed.

    The only solutions are to improve conditions on the other side of whatever border immigrants are coming from AND cracking down on employers who circumvent laws (and Smith’s invisible hand) by pulling from this infinitely renewable source of cheap labor.

  83. 83.

    eschaon

    November 14, 2007 at 12:27 pm

    The central problem of immigration in the U.S. is not that Mexicans (or whoever) are moving here in great numbers, it’s allowing the undocumented status to continue indefinitely. An undocumented worker has to forever live in fear of deportation – meaning their boss can have total power over them in the workplace, using this fear to stop workers from suing over discrimination, overtime violations, health and safety violations, and especially organizing a union.

    Because of this, workplaces dominated by undocumented immigrants just plain suck. Meatpacking is never a good job, for example, but the old-line UFCW and Teamster shops had wages of $20 per hour or more, where at a shop like Smithfield Foods in North Carolina workers typically make around $8-$9 per hour with no benefits.

    Simply bringing undocumented workers into the open, and letting them use the same labor laws as the rest of us, would erase the chance of a permanent underclass. Then, it would simply be up to the U.S. to decide what level of future immigration is needed, and construct the proper response.

    Adding further barriers to illegal immigration wouldn’t really help however. As with the war on drugs, restricting the supply would just increase the demand – perversely making it more lucrative for coyotes to smuggle people into the U.S., and making the situation for undocumented in the U.S. even more fraught with peril.

    Personally, I think the simplest solution is to provide money for economic development directly to those communities in Mexico where joblessness is at its highest. With a border which will always be slightly permeable, the only way two countries will not see cross-migration is if their economic conditions approach parity.

    I think it’s a trade off. Personally, I’d rather the U.S. just automatically enrolled anyone who lived and worked here for six months as a U.S. citizen automatically (it would sure help with tax revenue), but if people are serious about controlling immigration, they should be serious about cutting the demand, not the supply.

  84. 84.

    Randolph Fritz

    November 14, 2007 at 2:28 pm

    “As long as people know there is a demand for their labor, they will continue to risk death, arrest and unimaginable exploitation to come to this country.”

    Nonsense. They risk death because the are refugees–risking starvation at home–or because of their families.

    “I think the simplest solution is to provide money for economic development directly to those communities in Mexico where joblessness is at its highest.”

    My dear gods. No, that won’t work; the corrupt Mexican gummint will simply take it all. Mexican levels of corruption are unimaginable to most people raised in the USA.

  85. 85.

    Bombadil

    November 14, 2007 at 2:35 pm

    Mexican levels of corruption are unimaginable to most people raised in the USA.

    Oh, yeah? Then why aren’t more Mexicans Republicans, huh?

  86. 86.

    jh

    November 14, 2007 at 2:50 pm

    Nonsense. They risk death because the are refugees—risking starvation at home—or because of their families.

    Everybody who comes here is not facing starvation. The poverty and lack of class mobility provide more than enough incentive to come here.

    The point I was making is that hardship creates the incentive to immigrate – the US labor market provides the most easily attainable outlet for those seeking to improve their circumstances.

    In principle, this is not a bad thing. In practice, it’s a black market with all manner of unsavory practices and the direct side effects of undermining wages to the point that the only people willing to certain kinds of work are people who are here illegally. Not to mention the strain it places on public infrastructure.

    My take is screw a “guest worker program” that’s just modern sharecropping, and a screw “merit based immigration”. It is already being circumvented and expanding it will only create brain drain on other nations, further accelerating conditions which compel people to come here in the first place.

    Until there is a major crackdown on employers who pay sub-living wages; sans witholdings, to people who aren’t on the books, there will be a constant flow of people looking to fill those jobs.

  87. 87.

    Tony Alva

    November 14, 2007 at 2:54 pm

    I’m not saying avoidance! Hell, I’m gay, I’m all about civil rights. I’m just saying I want to avoid a situation where civil rights are denied in the first place! I think my immigration proposal, while not perfect, is a fuck of a lot better than what’s on the table. Give these people a chance, and avoid what happened in the 60’s because we were too stupid to accept black people as productive, full citizens. Sheeesh.

    Michael,

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this issue. Maybe it’s because I live in the Atlanta metro area as well, but I completely concur with your proposal with the added caveat that border security would have to improve as well. I’m not at all surprised by the blowhards who have thrown all their standard partisan vitriol at you. They know of no other way to think or respond.

    Paerhaps it’s because it happened so fast here in Georgia, but many outsiders simply cannot relate to how quickly the negative aspects of run away illegal immigration have manifested themselves here. It doesn’t matter whether they’re 1st, 2nd, or 5th generation, they have overwhelmed the school systems in Gwinnett to the crisis state it’s currently in.

    My daughter became school age this year and after my wife and I did the research, we quickly decided that moving was what we had to do. Watching the crime and gang activity rise in our area only made the decision that much easier to make. It would be easy to support vouchers given our circumstances, but my wife and I are commited to public school education.

    The asshats that have jumped on you here will never admit that the open border solution they endorse has HUGE negative consequences. They are being felt here in GA big time.

    We’re in for another strange period here too as the home building market crashes and the illegal immigrants migrate to other states where more work is available, not to mention the poor summer we’re headed for as far as $$$ being spent on landscaping due to the drought. In the last few months apt and commercial space availability has shot through the roof in Gwinnett. I have no links, but I’d be willing to bet it’s the result of an exodus that is only just begun.

    While it may be true that subsequent generations assimilate in ways that have been decribed here, it’s also true that the endless numbers that continue to come here unabated make this a non-solution (i.e. do nothing) to the problem.

  88. 88.

    Chuck Butcher

    November 14, 2007 at 5:22 pm

    This discussion is still doing tail chasing, if you are serious about a solution you have to decide who suffers and how much. I know this is upside down from the traditional method of passing something and then finding out who got screwed, but the voters are in an ugly mood and another gratuitous screwing will go badly.

    Let’s take the idea of draconian enforcement of employment rules, if that actually were to come about you would have in construction alone 30% of 12-20million people without an income. There’s some pain involved in that. If you do nothing and the trends continue in construction you will have fewer legal residents doing it for lower yet wages, the guys who work for me are daily skirting disaster and if their spouse doesn’t work, they have to find side work. My piece shrinks as insurance and bonding costs skyrocket, 100%/yr over the last 6yrs with no claims. I work on site, my “wage” decreases. My concern is not altogether altruistic, I need hard workers who do quality work in crappy conditions, as wages shrink that gets increasingly difficult to do legally.

    Somebody gets a bunch of pain, no matter what you do, and if you refuse to deal with that aspect all discussion is simply sophistry. Go ahead and try to tell me it won’t be legal hard working blue collar people. Next, tell me why they shouldn’t vote looney right?

  89. 89.

    RSA

    November 14, 2007 at 8:10 pm

    (Andrew: I submit you are a liar and are more interested in getting votes for Democrats than in raising the living standards for hispanic people entering this country.)

    Classy. Very classy.

  90. 90.

    stickler

    November 14, 2007 at 8:29 pm

    Chuck Butcher:

    Let’s take the idea of draconian enforcement of employment rules, if that actually were to come about you would have in construction alone 30% of 12-20million people without an income. There’s some pain involved in that. If you do nothing and the trends continue in construction you will have fewer legal residents doing it for lower yet wages, the guys who work for me are daily skirting disaster and if their spouse doesn’t work, they have to find side work. My piece shrinks as insurance and bonding costs skyrocket, 100%/yr over the last 6yrs with no claims. I work on site, my “wage” decreases. My concern is not altogether altruistic, I need hard workers who do quality work in crappy conditions, as wages shrink that gets increasingly difficult to do legally.

    That’s kind of a mishmash there. If there were “draconian enforcement of employment rules” like minimum wage and safety standards, I don’t imagine the construction industry would suffer all that much. Houses got built in the 1950s somehow, right? If you actually mean “draconian enforcement of citizenship rules for employment,” well, yeah labor costs are going to go up and 12 million illegals will have to find other work.* But, again, somehow meatpacking plants were profitable back in 1975 when they paid union wages, and housing construction was profitable too. Wages, though, are going to have to go up.

    (Super bonus surprise: often we find that paying higher wages attracts more-skilled labor, and productivity goes up, too, negating the increased labor cost. Henry Ford figured this out in 1913.)

    * = I personally think our Congress will never agree to any solution that will make 12 million or so people un-persons overnight. I’d be willing to bet that we’ll get another amnesty just like in 1985. It’s the only solution that could pass muster in this political environment.

  91. 91.

    r€nato

    November 14, 2007 at 9:29 pm

    Recently I was reading up on Sacco and Vanzetti. In the course of reading about them, I read a great deal about the prejudice suffered by Italian immigrants to the US (OK, the vast majority of them were Sicilians not Italians, but that’s a story for another day…) at the turn of the 20th century.

    It’s really striking, the similarity of the rhetoric against them. Your average Italian immigrant did not speak English, he was likely a poor, uneducated (or undereducated) farm laborer, and to make matters worse he was CATHOLIC!

    In fact, the Italian immigrants brought a special kind of criminal class to our shores, the Black Hand. Which we now call the Mafia.

    Go back and read the anti-Italian rhetoric from 100 years ago. It’s little different from the anti-Mexican rhetoric we hear today. This country somehow survived a massive wave of immigration from dark-skinned, non-English-speaking people back then, despite the utter conviction of many thousands of citizens (both those who were well-meaning and those who were outright racists) that these goddamned [fill in the blank] were going to be the ruin of the nation.

    We’ll survive the current wave of immigration and in fact we’ll be better off for it. Their children will be assimilated into American culture, just like the children of previous waves of Irish, German, Polish, Italian and Southeast Asian immigrants.

  92. 92.

    r€nato

    November 14, 2007 at 9:33 pm

    (Andrew: I submit you are a liar and are more interested in getting votes for Democrats than in raising the living standards for hispanic people entering this country.)

    wow – that’s some first-class GOP rhetoric there. I’ll put it on my wingnut shelf right next to, ‘either you’re with us or you’re with the terrorists’, and, ‘you can’t support the troops without supporting the mission’.

    As for the Democrats, I certainly hope that they exploit the noxious, bigoted rhetoric coming out of the GOP. The best thing that could happen for everyone in this country – whether living here as a citizen or as an illegal alien – would be about a generation or so of Democratic domination of our politics and the relegation of the GOP to permanent crank-party status.

  93. 93.

    Chuck Butcher

    November 15, 2007 at 5:09 am

    Stickler
    Considering that only about 20% of the cost of a house is labor a rather large increase in wages wouldn’t do much damage to pricing. This is even more true in other goods, but in a flooded labor market that is not going to happen.

    I’ll make it clear that I don’t believe the pain should be put on the legal collar worker but tha is exactly where it will go, reference r€nato above and his shill for a return to the good ole days of robber barons and starving labor. What he neglects to mention in his diatribe about Sacco and Vanzetti is that they were Anarchists in a starving labor Chicago about to blow up from the inequities in income. Sure I’d like to take another stab at THAT again.

    One of the prime movers of istitutionalized racism is economics, in the North it had nothing to do with Irish, Italian, etc; it had everything to do with competition for work – work at the bottom. This is happening all over again, and it will get worse. It isn’t about “mexicans” it’s about work, the accents and skin color make the “offenders” easy to identify. Some of you will decide I’m being racist, nope, I’m trying to tell you what is coming and why. I’d really like to not go down this path again, but we will. The people taking the screwing can’t reach the beneficiaries of this, but they can get to the mexican on the site. (or whatever) The racism is already on the rise, don’t bitch about it and then deny its causes.

    The problem is that a big bunch of the toleration advocates will not pay, they’ll never have to deal with those who pay, and they’re perfectly happy to hand that cost to those strangers. And they will walk on blithely pleased that they weren’t mean to those poor illegals while their legal neighbors a few blocks away finish the slide into poverty and they can look down their noses at the poor ignorant racists when they strike back. Lovely, eh?

  94. 94.

    mclaren

    November 15, 2007 at 6:03 am

    Michael D. identifies a serious problem here. Fortunately, there’s a solution — and it’s simple.

    What we need, obviously, is highly-paid upwardly mobile jobs for people with little or no education. Good news! There are plenty of such jobs!

    For example, planning the Iraq invasion. This job requires no education at all, only the ability to say “Everything is progressing according to plan” as the entire country descends into abject chaos, rape, looting, torture and genocide. Even better, the job of FEMA director. The only qualification involves dining out at fancy restaurants while people drown. Illegal immigrants can do that! Just give them a chance, they’ll prove it!

    Then there’s the job of White House counsel. As long as you can repeat the phrase, “If the president does it, it’s legal,” no further education is required! In fact, knowledge of the constitution proves a positive impediment to the job performance of the White House counsel, so illegal immigrants are a godsend in this employment category. And then there’s the job of attorney general of the united states. No education about law or the United Nations universal charter of human rights is needed for this one — just say “Torture is legal,” and presto! Change-o! You too can qualify for a highly-paad quarter million dollar a year job with great upside prospects once your tenure in Washington is finished.

    But that’s not all! Wait, folks — there’s more! There’s the job of Chairman of the Federal Reserve. No worries about needing a background in economics here; as long as any illegal immigrant knows enough to keep voting for decreasing interest rates, it’s a slam-dunk. Then there’s the job of CIA director. Just keep repeating the three words “WMDs,” and you’re in! You wouldn’t even need to speak English. This is an ideal job for illegal immigrants fresh across the border who can’t speak a word of English. Anytime anyone asks you any question, just repeat “WMDs.” We could write it out for the illegals on an index card, or tattoo it on their wrists! Why didn’t the CIA foresee 9/11? “WMDs.” Why did America invade Iraq? “Wmds.” Why shouldn’t the president be impeached? “WMDs.” What sort of prospects does America face in the 21st century? “WMDs.” Train any illiterate illegal immigrant to repeat those three letters, and congratulations, you’re hired!

    But that’s just the start. There’s the job of Washington lobbyist. No education required! Just repeat the phrase “deregulation,” in response to any question, and you’re doing a bang-up job! Washington lobbyists are well paid and enjoy a high standard of living. Just imagine — every illegal immigrant could afford to not only live in luxury, but send for their entire family and have ’em all repeat the word “deregulation” all day long, and they’ll be rolling in dough. Plus, they’d receive daily praise in the Op-Ed page of the Wall Street Journal. I bet after their lobbying stint was done in Washington, they’d receive offers of a professorship of economics at a leading Ivy League college.

    Last, but far from least, there’s the position of job of insurance company CEO. Just learn the rote phrase “Claim ednied,” and you’re in! Almost as good a job as member of the president’s council of economic advisors. As long as some illegal immigrant can remember the words “Tax cuts,” that’s all that’s needed. Economic education? What economic education? We don’t need no stinkin’ economic education in the President’s council of economic advisors, just the mindless ability to parrot the words “tax cuts.”

    I think this is real plan. Illegal immigrants could do all these jobs. They could do ’em better than native-born Americans are doing ’em right now, and illegals could do those jobs for less money. Why outsource? Give these high-paying high-prestige jobs to illegal immigrants who can’t read or write, and make America proud!

  95. 95.

    The Mantis

    November 15, 2007 at 2:10 pm

    If you’d like some insight into the establishment of a permanent sub-class in America, check out some analysis of the guest worker program Germany instituted during West Germany’s labor shortage beginning in the 1970s. Hundreds of thousands of Turks arrived, ready to be exploited but with no possibility of citizenship, and, therefore, no reason to “assimmilate.” Consequently, these guest workers set up bank accounts, neighborhoods, businesses, etc., but remained mentally and culturally detatched from Germany and, more generally, “the West.” In 2007, ask a German about their “Turkish problem” to understand how this program backfired: lack of assimmilation, racial tension, and a rise in disenchanted and disenfranchised blue collar workers who feel no responsibility to the country that so readily exploited their labor when it was convenient. Now “native” Germans bristle at the idea that Turkish people are flocking to “their” country to take advantage of generous social welfare programs, while the Turks themselves see it as something of an in-kind repayment for the years of economic exploitation experienced by them and their people. It wasn’t until 2000 that German-born children of foreign parents could claim German citizenship..Turks in Germany are like Mexicans in America…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Germany

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1627912.stm

  96. 96.

    Pan American

    November 16, 2007 at 1:11 am

    It’s not a coincidence that our glorious post-1945 economic expansion—with a growing middle class, and a vibrant union movement—occurred during a period of historically-low immigration levels.

    That “glorious” expansion was built on the rubble of the rest of the planet’s industrial base and some 50 million war dead.

    There was an internal migration of massive proportions as surplus agrarian labor in the South and Midwest moved into the urban industrial workforce. These new migrants were seen as a threat to the social order(generating a middle class exodus from urban cores) as undercutting labor rates and as a “problem” to be solved by government(which responded with social welfare like the Great Society programs).

    Today this migration is viewed as primarily African American. In fact white migrants greatly outnumbered blacks. A 1951 study by Wayne State asked Detroit residents to identify “undesirable peoples” “not good to have in the city”. 21% identified poor southern whites or hillbillies. Second behind criminals and gangsters and ahead ahead of negroes, foreigners and drifters.

  97. 97.

    MNPundit

    November 16, 2007 at 4:02 am

    That statement says so much about your assumptions and soft bigotry than anything else in your “plan.” That you read that into a statement about immigrants who worked hard to enter the country, then lump an entire ethnicity (that, as others have pointed out, is multi-generational) into that same group is absurd and insulting.

    Absolutely True. I’m Hispanic, my family never immigrated to the US, America came to us when Texas was added. We never had to move so we’ve been Americans non-stop since 1865 and for a few years before 1860.

    Also I have a shitty work ethic, look how much I post here.

Comments are closed.

Trackbacks

  1. An Immigration Proposal « The Van Der Galiën Gazette says:
    November 13, 2007 at 4:10 pm

    […] Nov 13th, 2007 by Michael van der Galiën By Michael D. […]

  2. Gay Orbit » Creating a Permanent Underclass says:
    November 13, 2007 at 5:41 pm

    […] Creating a Permanent UnderclassPosted by: MichaelI think I have a pretty good immigration proposal. Without re-writing it all, you can read it here.      […]

  3. The Moderate Voice » Domestic and international news analysis, irreverent comments, original reporting, and popular culture features from across the political spectrum. says:
    November 14, 2007 at 4:39 pm

    […] Writing at Balloon Juice, Michael D. offers an immigration proposal. While that proposal won’t delight everyone, please remember the first half of our screening criterion for CoA, namely: to feature voices that “attempt to strike a balanced note on heated debates and controversial issues.” The operative word is, of course, “attempt.” There’s no promise of success or perfection, only effort, which Michael D. clearly makes in this case. […]

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