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Disappointing to see gov. newsom with his finger to the wind.

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You are here: Home / Humorous / Do Unions Make People Lazy?

Do Unions Make People Lazy?

by Michael D.|  November 16, 200712:06 pm| 85 Comments

This post is in: Humorous, General Stupidity

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Well, I don’t know what the answer is to that – probably not in all cases anyway. Having said that, this wouldn’t convince me otherwise!

About 30 people picket in front of a bank in downtown Washington, D.C., wearing big yellow signs that read: “Mid-Atlantic Regional Council of Carpenters.”

They shuffle about in circles, many wearing hooded sweatshirts and jeans. Their coats are draped over parking meters; their belongings sit in plastic grocery bags on the sidewalk. I ask a protester named Mike Hodge why he’s there.

“We’re protesting, we’re protesting…” Then the energy leaves his voice and he concedes, “I don’t know.”

No wonder. Hodge isn’t a carpenter; he’s a rent-a-picket.

The regional carpenters’ union has hired Hodge for $8 an hour, essentially outsourcing protest work that union members traditionally do themselves. And many of the demonstrators are homeless people, according to people familiar with the union and its practices.

How does one roll one’s eyes online?

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Reader Interactions

85Comments

  1. 1.

    Cinderella Ferret

    November 16, 2007 at 12:15 pm

    Wow! Union scale is $8/hr for picketing? Oh man! That is the ultimate outsourcing. Do they get benefits? Some shit you can’t make up.

  2. 2.

    capelza

    November 16, 2007 at 12:16 pm

    Oh jeez…

    Then I think of all the spouses of the now not working carpenters..they saw their chance and have the man (or woman) at home, with a whip, getting all those unfinsihed (most likely for years) projects done. Just kidding sort of..

  3. 3.

    RSA

    November 16, 2007 at 12:26 pm

    Do Unions Make People Lazy?

    Well, I don’t know what the answer is to that – probably not in all cases anyway.

    Does being a libertarian make someone an asshole? Probably not in all cases anyway.

  4. 4.

    Captain USA

    November 16, 2007 at 12:33 pm

    There should be a rent-a-picketer’s union!

  5. 5.

    Jake

    November 16, 2007 at 12:35 pm

    Ah yes, the homeless. A ready source of unquestioning labor that can be quickly discarded and ignored if it complains. See for example this cute stunt pulled by Erlich & Steele

    The glossy fliers bore photos of black Democratic leaders on the front. Under the headline “Democratic Sample Ballot” were boxes checked in red for Ehrlich and Senate candidate Michael S. Steele, who were not identified as Republicans. Their names were followed by a long list of local Democratic candidates.

    I’m glad to hear only one regional union (did you read the article MD?) is engaging in this sort of crap.

  6. 6.

    Sirkowski

    November 16, 2007 at 12:35 pm

    How does one roll one’s eyes online?

    e_e

  7. 7.

    Mike

    November 16, 2007 at 12:37 pm

    If Americans were willing to pay a living wage to rent-a-pickets, we wouldn’t have all these illegals streaming across our borders to do our picketing for us.

  8. 8.

    salvage

    November 16, 2007 at 12:39 pm

    Wow, I’m hardcore pro-union but damn that’s just not right.

    Hope they lose.

  9. 9.

    Zifnab

    November 16, 2007 at 12:46 pm

    They’re doing the jobs Americans don’t want to do!

  10. 10.

    mrmobi

    November 16, 2007 at 12:47 pm

    Yes, Michael, Unions make people lazy, and stupid. All Union workers are overpaid, under-skilled, and a detriment to the full functioning of our glorious free-market system.

    In fact, the next time I fly, I want to make sure that the jet was made by non-union workers. Nothing is more re-assuring than knowing that the plane you are flying in was made by the lowest bidder, utilizing the lowest paid workers that can be found.

    In the article you linked to, they point out that the Union hires the homeless to picket sites where management has hired low-paid workers so that their members can work at other projects for $24 per hour. In other words they are doing what a Union should be doing, making sure their members get paid decent wages for the work they do.

    Very lazy of them, and so very, very dishonest. Is this all you got, Michael?

  11. 11.

    Dreggas

    November 16, 2007 at 12:47 pm

    Heh, here in California they tend to hire the homeless to stand on street corners with big signs advertising subway’s latest specials. Jeez I need to open a company that supplies picketers…

  12. 12.

    Zifnab

    November 16, 2007 at 12:48 pm

    There should be a rent-a-picketer’s union!

    The Mid-Atlantic Regional Council of Carpenters would just bust it up. They’re freak’n taskmasters. Totally brutal.

  13. 13.

    Robert Johnston

    November 16, 2007 at 12:56 pm

    Being people makes people lazy. In any event, the problem here isn’t laziness; it’s stupidity, another quality that results in people mostly just from being people.

    This sort of reflexive whining about unions, on the other hand, results not merely from being people, but from being willfully uninformed people who think that baseless stereotypes with detrimental effect are funny. It takes deliberate effort or an unusually complete lack of sophistication to get to the point where you can blame unions for people being stupid. Unions and people acting on behalf of unions are no more or less likely to be lazy or stupid that other groups and people.

  14. 14.

    Heronymus

    November 16, 2007 at 12:58 pm

    What mrmobi said.

    I mean, seriously. “Hey, let’s arrange for some stand-in picketers so that our members can actually earn some money working at a different shop!” I can see why that would be considered wrong by some people.

    Arguably, however, the union should have had a rep on-site, if only to handle questions and whatnot. Heck, find a couple of labor-interested college kids and get them involved in it. It’s an easy fix.

  15. 15.

    ConservativelyLiberal

    November 16, 2007 at 1:02 pm

    I am a pro union person, but even I have heard some pretty stupid union rules. In a school district in Pennsylvania, there are janitors who change light bulbs, janitors who clean walls and janitors who clean floors, but not one janitor that is allowed to do all three of these jobs. Or even two of the three. It takes three people to do these jobs, minimum.

    My dad was a union truck driver, my mom was a union leader/secretary (Meat Cutters Local) and I support unions but not some of the stupid ideas that they have written into their rules. This hiring picketers would sound bad, but if the union members are still working then it is a good idea, IMO. Gets their word out and puts some money in others pockets. But they should choose their picketers carefully.

    Having Bill the wino carry a sign might not be beneficial to their cause…lol!

  16. 16.

    sparky

    November 16, 2007 at 1:13 pm

    dude:
    you gotta read these pieces all the way through before posting. it states that the carpenters outsource the picketing so they can keep their higher wage positions.

    we can discuss the irony of a union using a tool of capitalism with this piece for sure. but lazy? no, not unless you want to illuminate someone’s (ahem) preconceptions.

  17. 17.

    chris

    November 16, 2007 at 1:16 pm

    I suspect the union guys are out working, so that’s just smart business. Get two things done at once. Not lazy at all.

    Hypocritical and unprincipled, but not lazy.

    Now if the homeless formed a union, those union guys’d be fucked. And as a twofer, maybe the homeless wouldn’t be homeless for much longer…

  18. 18.

    SpotWeld

    November 16, 2007 at 1:23 pm

    Is it fair to say all unions are the same? You certainly can’t say all corporations are the same in methods, ethics and overall impact on the workforce.

  19. 19.

    Michael D.

    November 16, 2007 at 1:32 pm

    Is this all you got, Michael?

    Fuck, I just put this out there because I thought it was a funny story. I can recommend a good surgeon to remove that stick from your ass if you like.

  20. 20.

    demimondian

    November 16, 2007 at 1:34 pm

    Let me see. I’m a union steward, and one of the job sites I’m overseeing has an unresolved labor grievance — during a time when there’s excess demand for the people from my union. Now, I can hire some people to walk the line, thus keeping the site shut down and putting pressure on my opponent who isn’t honoring the contract he signed with us (you know, the thing which you glibertarian shit-holes like to prate about), and send my people elsewhere, hurting my enemy twice…or I can play patsy for him by denying my people the ability to earn a full salary.

    Um, hey, Michael? Go fuck yourself, dude. Seriously. This isn’t pattycake, baby — this is how the battle is fought. In the old days, it would have been the women’s auxiliary out there earning strike pay, but, these days, they’re busy working, too, trying to make ends meet. Paying homeless foks isn’t as good as having the wives and kids out there — but it’s what has to happen.

  21. 21.

    Michael D.

    November 16, 2007 at 1:37 pm

    Some of you people need to grow a skin to mask that over-sentitivity and “always ready for a fight” attitude you have!

    This wasn’t even supposed to be an argument! It was a funny story that, yes, I did read. :-)

  22. 22.

    sean

    November 16, 2007 at 1:43 pm

    yes, you did read it. and titled it, “Do Unions Make People Lazy.” and filed it under General Stupidity. so, to echo demimondian, go fuck yourself

  23. 23.

    IanY77

    November 16, 2007 at 1:45 pm

    There is no emoticon for the contempt I am feeling!

  24. 24.

    Pb

    November 16, 2007 at 1:46 pm

    In the past couple of years, the carpenters’ union has hired the homeless to picket in Washington and other cities, according to news reports. The logic is economic. The union pays homeless people $8 an hour to picket so real carpenters can continue to make $24 an hour doing their jobs.

    This sounds like exactly the sort of thing that a real Glibertarian would whole-heartedly support! Free market, baby, the carpenters get to keep making their $24/hr, the homeless get $8/hr, everybody wins! Hey, if they didn’t want to do it, they could have stayed… err, not home. Do you support this, Michael?

  25. 25.

    Michael D.

    November 16, 2007 at 1:48 pm

    go fuck yourself

    Trust me, if I could do that, I would never leave the house.

  26. 26.

    jenniebee

    November 16, 2007 at 1:53 pm

    So can we add to the list now that Michael is terminally unfunny?

  27. 27.

    Kynn

    November 16, 2007 at 1:59 pm

    Fuck, I just put this out there because I thought it was a funny story.

    Because it’s always funny when glibertarians attack unions. Always.

    If the homeless people don’t like the job, they can always get a new one, right? Isn’t that what Michael D is always saying, while he’d never, himself, employ a homeless person.

  28. 28.

    Uncle Kvetch

    November 16, 2007 at 2:01 pm

    You certainly can’t say all corporations are the same in methods, ethics and overall impact on the workforce.

    Now now…I’m certain Michael wouldn’t have a problem with an amusing story of corporate shenanigans being titled “Does the Free Market Turn People Into Criminals?”

    Some of you people need to grow a skin to mask that over-sentitivity and “always ready for a fight” attitude you have!

    You need to grow up.

  29. 29.

    RSA

    November 16, 2007 at 2:07 pm

    This wasn’t even supposed to be an argument! It was a funny story that, yes, I did read.

    It must have been the delivery–or, wait, it could have been the additional commentary based on a stereotype that many find offensive.

  30. 30.

    David

    November 16, 2007 at 2:08 pm

    Okay, seriously, people. It’s a simple concept. The entire point of a demonstration is that you’re making a stand for what you believe should be done. If you can’t be bothered to show up, it’s pretty damned dishonest to pay other people to do it for you and pretend to the people you’re demonstrating at that they’re doing it because they care. If the union wants to make its point by boycotting this shop while its members work productively someplace else, fine. Tack on “and grab homeless people off the street to make it look like there’s a picket line” and you have stupidity.

  31. 31.

    Dulcie

    November 16, 2007 at 2:08 pm

    So can we add to the list now that Michael is terminally unfunny?

    Well, he did get this gig based on that one funny thing he said.

  32. 32.

    Chuckles

    November 16, 2007 at 2:28 pm

    I’m from a union family and this is disgusting.

    Michael D.’s not perpetuating the stereotype here, folks. It’s this dumb-ass, lazy-ass, gutless union.

    They give a proud movement a bad name, and they should be called out for it.

  33. 33.

    Zifnab

    November 16, 2007 at 2:29 pm

    Meh, you don’t see the writers guild strikers paying people to pick for them. Correct me if I’m wrong on that.

    If the Carpenter’s Union wants to strike, then let’m strike. If they want to picket, let them picket. If they want to hire someone to advertise their complaints, they can hire bums to hand out fliers.

    If this particular method of protest looks half-assed and ill-advised, that’s probably because it is half-assed and ill-advised. The picketers don’t even know why they’re striking. Isn’t that a bit silly?

  34. 34.

    chopper

    November 16, 2007 at 2:37 pm

    i dunno, i thought the story was funny as hell.

    i mean, the guy they interviewed didn’t even know what he was marching for! that’s comedy right there.

    look, i’m as pro-union as they come, but you gotta be able to laugh at shit from time to time.

  35. 35.

    Jake

    November 16, 2007 at 2:39 pm

    Some of you people need to grow a skin to mask that over-sentitivity…

    Oh, the irony.

  36. 36.

    chopper

    November 16, 2007 at 2:39 pm

    Now now…I’m certain Michael wouldn’t have a problem with an amusing story of corporate shenanigans being titled “Does the Free Market Turn People Into Criminals?”

    i don’t know mike D very well, but i have the feeling he wouldn’t have a big problem with it.

  37. 37.

    Michael D.

    November 16, 2007 at 2:43 pm

    “Does the Free Market Turn People Into Criminals?”

    It sure can. Which is why I believe in a free market subject to limited regulation. Do I have problems with some of those regulations? Absolutely. For example Sarbanes-Oxley. but I won’t get started on that.

  38. 38.

    tBone

    November 16, 2007 at 2:43 pm

    Some of you people need to grow a skin to mask that over-sentitivity…

    Oh, the irony.

    Damn, beaten.

    I hate to think how Michael would react if someone threatened to kick him in the junk.

  39. 39.

    chopper

    November 16, 2007 at 2:47 pm

    last week the simpsons episode was on where they made the Radioactive Man movie.

    Homer goes up to a bunch of Teamsters.

    Homer: You guys work on the movie?
    Teamster: You sayin’ we’re not workin’?
    Homer: Oh, I always wanted to be a Teamster. So lazy and surly…mind if I relax next to you?

    terminally unfunny.

  40. 40.

    Michael D.

    November 16, 2007 at 2:47 pm

    if someone threatened to kick him in the junk

    Depends. It might be fun as part of a roleplay!

  41. 41.

    Michael D.

    November 16, 2007 at 2:50 pm

    Homer: Oh, I always wanted to be a Teamster. So lazy and surly…mind if I relax next to you?

    It’s funny cause it’s true…

  42. 42.

    tBone

    November 16, 2007 at 2:54 pm

    Depends. It might be fun as part of a roleplay!

    Whatever floats your boat. As long as it doesn’t involve Patterico in Malkin’s cheerleader outfit.

  43. 43.

    ChrisA

    November 16, 2007 at 3:07 pm

    I suppose unions could make people lazy, in the same way that inherited wealth makes rich people lazy.

  44. 44.

    Gus

    November 16, 2007 at 3:27 pm

    I’m guessing the carpenters who are on strike are out freelancing to pay the bills. One of the things that keeps unions down is the fact that even decent paying jobs keep people living from paycheck to paycheck. Most people can’t afford to be on the picket lines. My wife was talking about crossing the picket lines when her union was talking strike, just so we could pay the mortgage, much to my chagrin. Scab was a dirty word where I’m from. That said, when times got tough in my hometown, I worked with a couple of union guys who had been laid off. They never missed a coffee break, cigarette break, lunch break, etc. I think that as usual the Simpsons nailed it:
    “You can’t treat the working man this way. One day, we’ll form a union and get the fair and equitable treatment we deserve! Then we’ll go too far, and get corrupt and shiftless, and the Japanese will eat us alive!”

  45. 45.

    demimondian

    November 16, 2007 at 3:32 pm

    Next up, funny future post titles from Balloon Juice:

    * Does working outside the home turn women into whores?
    * Is being gay a choice?

    Michael, have you ever done a teamster’s job? Have you ever earned a living as a public school teacher? Cleaned bathrooms in a tony hotel?

  46. 46.

    Michael D.

    November 16, 2007 at 3:44 pm

    Have you ever done a teamster’s job: Nope, but I worked for the Canadian National Railway as a union worker.

    Have you ever earned a living as a public school teacher? Nope, although I used to teach in a college and I believe that the National Education Association is largely responsible fo rthe poor state of public schools.

    Cleaned bathrooms in a tony hotel? I don’t even know what a tony hotel is, so I guess not. I have four bathrooms in my house that I clean every week. Does that count?

  47. 47.

    Jake

    November 16, 2007 at 3:55 pm

    Do I have problems with some of those regulations? Absolutely. For example Sarbanes-Oxley. but I won’t get started on that.

    Right, you must enjoy the mockery because only a real joker could say SOA is a problem with a straight face.

  48. 48.

    Zifnab

    November 16, 2007 at 4:04 pm

    Sarbanes-Oxley might be less of a joke if it is actually enforced. Fortunately, we’ve got Mr. Corporate President to make sure the Justice Department doesn’t waste its time on such frivolity, and instead focuses on ferreting out new contestants on “To Catch A Predator”. When they’re not investigating Democrats voting in large numbers voter fraud.

  49. 49.

    tBone

    November 16, 2007 at 4:09 pm

    I believe that the National Education Association is largely responsible fo rthe poor state of public schools.

    There aren’t enough eye rolls in the world.

  50. 50.

    RSA

    November 16, 2007 at 4:11 pm

    I believe that the National Education Association is largely responsible fo rthe poor state of public schools.

    Is John’s strategy to attract more Red State readers? Michael D., would you care to be more specific about how the NEA is responsible?

  51. 51.

    laneman

    November 16, 2007 at 4:12 pm

    Meh, you don’t see the writers guild strikers paying people to pick for them

    No, they get their kids to do it.

  52. 52.

    jenniebee

    November 16, 2007 at 4:27 pm

    I believe that the National Education Association is largely responsible fo rthe poor state of public schools.

    The stupid! It burns!

  53. 53.

    George B.

    November 16, 2007 at 4:57 pm

    I believe that the National Education Association is largely responsible fo rthe poor state of public schools.

    I can’t believe John gave such a fucking douchebag posting privileges. I thought he’d moved beyond all that.

    What else are unions responsible for? 9/11? Gas prices? Are we losing the war in Iraq because of a union?

  54. 54.

    Tax Analyst

    November 16, 2007 at 5:00 pm

    What IS funny is for Michael to post a thread with that title and not EXPECT to catch a whole boatload of flack.

    I sense someone with a burning need to build a platform for his victimhood.

    But, on the positive side, at least he isn’t pandering to that need on the basis of sexual preference, so perhaps there is some hope.

    But the “Lonely Libertarian with no friends here” is getting a little old. Michael, I don’t think you’re getting slapped around for being a Libertarian. It has more to do with tossing around a lot of off-the-cuff stereotypes you’ve developed internally without ever really examining whether there is actually anything behind them that backs them up.

    That type of shit will get you slapped silly around here, so I suggest you pick a vowel and take a clue.

    All solely my opinion, of course.

  55. 55.

    Tony Alva

    November 16, 2007 at 5:29 pm

    Okay, seriously, people. It’s a simple concept. The entire point of a demonstration is that you’re making a stand for what you believe should be done. If you can’t be bothered to show up, it’s pretty damned dishonest to pay other people to do it for you and pretend to the people you’re demonstrating at that they’re doing it because they care. If the union wants to make its point by boycotting this shop while its members work productively someplace else, fine. Tack on “and grab homeless people off the street to make it look like there’s a picket line” and you have stupidity.

    Jeez Louis, what’s the matter with you people? paying homeless guys to picket doesn’t rankle you? The grocery workers union did the same shit here in Atlanta back in the mid 90’s and became a laughing stock. Fuck the unions. They’ve out grown their usefulness and this article is proof. YES the teachers unions are screwing it all up. Most of the good teachers hate the fucking union. They protect the losers and force broad painful solutions for problems created by a few bums.

  56. 56.

    Psycheout

    November 16, 2007 at 5:47 pm

    Unions are a tool of the devil.

  57. 57.

    Psycheout

    November 16, 2007 at 6:00 pm

    The echo chamber is being unfair to Michael. Whe he’s right, he’s right. When you guys whine, you whine.

  58. 58.

    Jake

    November 16, 2007 at 6:00 pm

    And psycheout is the Devil’s tool.

  59. 59.

    binzinerator

    November 16, 2007 at 6:05 pm

    Do unions make people lazy?

    To hell with you for mouthing the movement conservative stereotype of unions. You even managed to do it in the typical wingnut way of presenting it as a false question, a bullshit presupposition about union people being lazy.

    I’ve been union before, my grandfather was union all his life, my brother for the last 15 years, ever since he left the navy.

    Never saw any man with a better work ethic than my grandfather, a life-long union man.

    My brother, a union steward, now busts his ass 60 hours a week and his company’s insistence on mandatory long hours are now the source of great friction between his union and his company. His company sees it’s cheaper to pay 2 people constant 50% overtime than to hire a 3rd person, and it keeps the union from gaining members. You may think overtime for 60 hours a week is great, but not every damn week of the year if you value family life, your marriage and time on the weekends with your kids for things like, you know, little league and soccer and doing the kinds of stuff dads do with their kids when they’re not working. So much for all that right-wing family values bullshit.

    If not for the union, my lazy brother would be working 2 20-hr a week part-time jobs, because that is the latest strategy for employers to get around paying benefits. My other brother, non-union, knows all about that shit. He’s got two degrees and discovers he has a choice: Two part-time jobs an hour in opposite directions of his home with no bennies OR no job. Or move. Or find a new career.

    Fuck those libertarians with their smug bullshit about employment choices. Fuck the ownership society types who get all pissy when people demand some ownership over their own lives.

    Yes, this paying people to picket in ones place is on the face of it damn stupid and it certainly sounds ridiculous. But it may be their union has no or little strike fund money, and even if they have a big strike fund, it’s never like full employment. So going on strike is a severe financial blow to many families. I understand they pay people to picket for them so they can get at least some income elsewhere. It may be a Devil’s Bargain. There’s no good choice in that. But many families are closer to the financial edge now than ever before, and personal bankruptcy is now a life sentence of penury.

    You know, it could be that these people might in fact be making one of those wonderful employment choices libertarians talk so much of — a choice that is the best they can make right now — and in doing so they look like hypocritical losers. But it’s not funny at all if these people had to make a damned-if-you-do choice because it was the best choice they had.

    This libertarian rhetoric about employment ‘choice’ — I saw that a lot in that thread on smoking bans — reminds me of conservatives on health insurance: your home, your family, or your health. Pick one.

    Yes, go ahead and mock people who belong to unions for having the gall to demand real choices from their employers. Of course they’re lazy, the ingrates.

  60. 60.

    RSA

    November 16, 2007 at 6:17 pm

    The echo chamber is being unfair to Michael. Whe he’s right, he’s right. When you guys whine, you whine.

    Someone is not clear on the concept of “echo chamber”.

  61. 61.

    binzinerator

    November 16, 2007 at 6:36 pm

    They protect the losers and force broad painful solutions for problems created by a few bums.

    You mean like this scenario?

    Colossal leadership blunders are made, strategic vision extends only as far as the next quarter, long-term viability is routinely traded for short-term gains, competitiveness slides, losses are posted, they lay off workers, blame the greedy unions, and the CEOs get millions in bonuses.

    You described a good-sized chunk of corporate America, not unions.

  62. 62.

    Michael D.

    November 16, 2007 at 6:41 pm

    What IS funny is for Michael to post a thread with that title and not EXPECT to catch a whole boatload of flack.

    I posted it exactly for that reason! LOL!

  63. 63.

    RSA

    November 16, 2007 at 6:50 pm

    Colossal leadership blunders are made, strategic vision extends only as far as the next quarter, long-term viability is routinely traded for short-term gains, competitiveness slides, losses are posted, they lay off workers, blame the greedy unions, and the CEOs get millions in bonuses.

    One wonders about free market competition for CEO positions; it strikes me that for large companies, they get tremendous rewards for little in the way of personal risk.

  64. 64.

    Michael D.

    November 16, 2007 at 6:51 pm

    BTW: The unions are really working wonders in the auto industry aren’t they?

    Toyota: How many unions do they have? Hmmmm. Best fucking every day cars on the road. And oh, they’re making money!

    How are Ford, Chrysler, and GM doing again??? Yeah, the unions really have increased the quality haven’t they!!

    And that NEA. They’re really doing a fucking awesome job educating your children aren’t they??

    Oh, and I know y’all hate your Wal-Mart. Me too. But ever wonder why it’s so huge, and why they get all their shit from China? Because people LIKE YOU won’t buy overpriced toys made in America by union shops.

    So you bitch and moan about America’s problems, but YOU are responsible.

  65. 65.

    demimondian

    November 16, 2007 at 7:00 pm

    The unions are really working wonders in the auto industry aren’t they?

    Um, actually, yeah.

    Tell me again who is driving Ford and GM’s health care (and, therefore, pension) costs through the roof? And tell me again why it is that the non-union “charter” schools consistently fail to give as good an education as the stodgy, hide-bound union schools? And that DESPITE the fact that they get to cherry pick students, and don’t have to try to provide an education to Keenan or Stefan from my chess club?

    Yeah, Michael, you tell me that.

  66. 66.

    Tax Analyst

    November 16, 2007 at 7:57 pm

    Michael D. Says:

    What IS funny is for Michael to post a thread with that title and not EXPECT to catch a whole boatload of flack.
    I posted it exactly for that reason! LOL!

    Well, then you must be enjoying all the shit that is flying your way. Bon Apetit!

    Seriously, though – the cardboard cut-out stereotypes do nothing to advance your arguments, and in fact, tend to discredit them. Here, study this equation carefully and see if it makes sense to you:

    “Unionization” = “Lazy Workers” = “Michael D’s thread position”

    then

    “Michael D’s thread position” = “Eat My Shorts, You Dumb-Ass LiberNutarian”

    See? If you analyze it you’ll find it’s a really easy calc.

  67. 67.

    d-man

    November 16, 2007 at 8:34 pm

    Ummmm…. Regarding Toyota

    Toyota having unions or not is no relation to quality. Toyota actually manages employees, suppliers and processes correctly thru proper implementation of Lean and Six Sigma process improvement tools.

    Because they manage correctly, there is probably less incentive to form a union as well.

    If they managed the crappy way of US automanufactures and still had no union. Their product would start to suck the same as the big three.

  68. 68.

    Oms

    November 16, 2007 at 8:43 pm

    Samsung, the largest company in South Korea and one of the largest tech companies in the world has no unions. They pay their employees well, the end product is something they are proud of. Every year, highschool students in Korea study for tests that will allow them to enter Seoul National University, which is the only sure-fire way they have of fulfilling their dream to work for Samsung.

    Unionizing has nothing to do with quality. Unionizing also has little to o with laziness, but productivity decreases in many cases where companies are unionized. When it’s all about the benjamins, quality is not job 1 anymore!

  69. 69.

    chopper

    November 16, 2007 at 8:46 pm

    Never saw any man with a better work ethic than my grandfather, a life-long union man.

    i never met a man with a better work ethic than my pops, and he hated unions and the NEA. i disagreed with him on unions (although the union i was in did all of jack and shit for me).

    but i still think putting people on the picket line in your place who don’t even know what they’re picketing is funny as hell and bad PR to boot. maybe i’m just an asshole, i dunno.

  70. 70.

    Bob In Pacifica

    November 16, 2007 at 9:27 pm

    I guess all those Repub operatives picketing to prevent votes getting counted in FLA in 2000 were paid better than 8 bucks an hour. Anyone have a list of who they were and what they got? Wasn’t good ol’ John Bolton among them? He got a war.

    Some naive fools don’t remember when unions actually weren’t beaten down in this country. We used to join each other’s picket lines, and we didn’t get paid. We did it because we wanted other people to get decent wages too.

  71. 71.

    ConservativelyLiberal

    November 16, 2007 at 9:36 pm

    I find it interesting that those who decry this posting by Michael feel that they have to do so in the rudest way possible. It is like they have no way of expressing themselves and their differences with Michael in a civil manner.

    Do you think being rude wins anyone over to your side of an issue? We have the right to thank for the destruction of polite political discourse, but the left has embraced it and are no more attractive than the republicans in employing it. Berating someone about their position is no way to have a productive discussion. It only starts verbal brawling that is “full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”

    The fastest way to get someone to disagree with you is to attack them. Attacking the the person who expresses their opinions on this blog is a waste of time that could be better spent in stating (in a polite manner) your differences.

    This place is starting to exude all of the warmth of RedState.

  72. 72.

    demimondian

    November 16, 2007 at 9:59 pm

    CL, if you’re looking for High Broderism, you’ve come to wrong place.

    I hold no brief for “civility” in the face of lies and slanders. People died fighting for the right to organize, and to have some smarmy bullshit glibertarian ask whether “unions make people lazy” and repeat lies that were refuted two generations ago…

  73. 73.

    RSA

    November 16, 2007 at 10:22 pm

    It is like they have no way of expressing themselves and their differences with Michael in a civil manner.

    I think that the proprietors of a blog set the tone for comments. To my mind, Michael D. established a free-for-all style a few days ago with this:

    (Andrew: I submit you are a liar and are more interested in getting votes for Democrats than in raising the living standards for hispanic people entering this country.)

  74. 74.

    jake

    November 16, 2007 at 11:40 pm

    So you bitch and moan about America’s problems, but YOU are responsible.

    Got that class? Every time you expect employers to treat their employees properly, God kills a kitten.

    But some of you might be wondering, since Mike is so concerned about the causes of America’s problems, why he doesn’t put in a word about the the Republican Party and its enablers. In less than eight years this band of lazy, greedy, unprincipled felons have lied this country into a war, repeatedly shredded the Constitution and reduced the economy to a shambles. But apparently, compared to the unions, these actions were nothing more than a few slips and mis-steps.

    Some of you might say wait a minute, the Republican Party has also initiated a system of privileges based not on merit, but on a potential employee’s ability to blather about how much they hate Roe v. Wade and gays. You might point to the reports of college grads play with big wads of cash in one of Saddam’s old palaces. You might mention a man named Michael Brown being placed in charge of FEMA. You might mention the e-mails he ignored while New Orleans went from unpleasant to hellish. You point to the time the Vice President of the United States declared that he isn’t subject to any laws by anyone because his office is a fourth branch of the government. You might bring up Alberto Gonzales and Monica Goodling, the way HUD, GSA contracts and NCLB grants are handed out. You might even wonder about Nancy Nord, head of the Consumer Product and Safety Commission. Isn’t there something very wrong with an organization, you might ask, that in the midst of a serious problem with the safety of children’s toys, says it doesn’t want more money or staff? I guess if you were really picky you could even point out the fact that Nancy Nord accepted a number of paid vacations from the very organizations who were trying to get the CPSC to cooperate.

    Don’t be silly. That didn’t cause any of America’s problems, it was the god damned unions and their enablers: Shameless commies such as yourselves. Shame!

  75. 75.

    tBone

    November 17, 2007 at 12:32 am

    And that NEA. They’re really doing a fucking awesome job educating your children aren’t they??

    This is a great point. I was pretty upset when the NEA disbanded our local school board, fired all of the teachers, and replaced them with educrat goons they airdropped in from Washington (using a black helicopter, natch). Damn you, NEA! Damn you to hell!!

  76. 76.

    d-man

    November 17, 2007 at 12:43 am

    Follow-up to my post earlier. I do think that what Micheal’s is pointing out is funny and I’m not really offended by the title.

    But the jump from unions and quality is too much to pass-up.

    It reminds me of the local radio wingnut try to say that the (at the time) the increase in home prices in the Seattle area were due (soley) to restrictive goverment regulations on house contruction… ignoring things such as, inflow of cash due to stock options, lower interest rates, limited houses with views, etc.

  77. 77.

    JR

    November 17, 2007 at 12:50 am

    Um, AP, WaPo and Fox News all covered this back in July. Is there a reason for retreading the same turf?

  78. 78.

    George B.

    November 17, 2007 at 9:55 am

    At least the union movement gave America the middle class. That class arose into existence with the union movement, and now that the unions have died off it, too, has functionally ceased to exist.

    Glibertarianism, on the other hand, is an untested theory that has no validity in fact and is even less palatable than autocratic Statism (which, unlike Glibertarianism, is not based on false premises about human nature and is at least capable of existing in real life). If anyone is ever crazy/foolish/genocidal enough to actually try to implement Glibertarianism, the body count will make the Russian Civil War look like a love-in. Glibertarians know this, in their heart of hearts, but they consciously operate on the “Fuck you, I’ve got mine” ownership mentality which is directly challenged by collective bargaining and the labor movement in general.

    In short, Glibertarians are the problem, sneering at the solution. The question is, were Glibertarians selfish assholes before they were drawn to these theories, or did they become selfish assholes as a result of embracing these theories?

  79. 79.

    wwz

    November 17, 2007 at 10:12 am

    Well, of course being a Union member doesn’t make you lazy. But lazy people do join Unions just like they do most every other group one can think of. Sometimes they even get a little power within the group.

    Any group can be mislead. Lets not confuse poorly lead Unions with the idea of what having Unions is all about.

  80. 80.

    grumpy realist

    November 17, 2007 at 10:46 am

    Meh. After having lived in Boston and Chicago I have to say that a lot of unions deserve the opprobium being dumped on them. A company setting up at a trade show: what do you mean only a union person can plug my equipment into the wall?

    On the other hand….well, I know exactly how much power one individual person has in light of the corporation. So collective bargaining does even the playing field a bit. (And I certainly wish that Walmart was unionized–the poor bastards working there need to not be jerked around by management: “oh, we’re only going to hire you for 20 hours a week so no benefits. But we get to decide which 20 hours a week and can move them around as we like, so you can’t even go out and get another job.”)

    In small towns where one company is the major employer? Hell yes–I would have a union *mandatory* in such circumstances!

  81. 81.

    BIRDZILLA

    November 18, 2007 at 11:31 am

    Its all about shw and sisplay its all about showing off and getting media attention

  82. 82.

    Fred

    November 22, 2007 at 11:28 am

    I guess my tolerance for unions took a dive when my uncle and his fellow soldiers damned near froze to death in Korea because the longshoremen didn’t want to handle freight that winter.

    Or the time 3 of our trucks were burned to the ground because the workers at my father’s plant told the ship-builders and hod-carriers union “no, thanks”.

  83. 83.

    George B.

    November 26, 2007 at 9:46 am

    Anyone who enjoys weekends, break times, 40-hour workweeks, 2 weeks’ vacation, or any of the other perks of the modern workplace should remember that some union members gave their lives for those privileges. Privileges that are now taken for granted, and are facing erosion. Without collective security, the worker faces only the whim of the employer-behemoth. Just the way Glibertarians like it, apparently.

Comments are closed.

Trackbacks

  1. Gay Orbit » Do Unions Make People Lazy??? says:
    November 16, 2007 at 6:55 pm

    […] Do Unions Make People Lazy???Posted by: MichaelAn active conversation here.      […]

  2. It’s crap like this that makes unions look useless « The United States of Jamerica says:
    November 20, 2007 at 10:40 am

    […] It’s crap like this that makes unions look useless Published November 20, 2007 ridiculous Tags: preposterous things, unions Via John Cole: About 30 people picket in front of a bank in downtown Washington, D.C., wearing big yellow signs that read: “Mid-Atlantic Regional Council of Carpenters.” […]

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