Bilal Hussein is back in the news, and I confess to not having followed this case AT ALL. Can someone give me a one-two paragraph summary of what he is alleged to have done that does not include breathless links to folks examining pictures of his and claiming they are proof of perfidy. If nothing else, it will be interesting to see what people think he has done and what he is eventually charged with, as he hasn’t, to my knowledge, been officially charged with anything yet.
I am not taking a side on this, just claiming to be too lazy to sift through all the crap from the usual suspects. It wouldn’t shock me if one of thousands of AP stringers did turn out to have been an insurgent, and it wouldn’t shock me if he is completely innocent and greater Wingnuttia has no clue what they are talking about. In other words, I really have no opinion on this yet.
And really, after learning that the military is demanding that injured vets pay back their signing bonuses, the bar is pretty high for shock around here.
Rudi
Sully has a post on BH and he doesn’t go into the merits of evidence. But what he does discuss is the military’s motive for pursuing this case, the reasons aren’t pretty.
Sully
demimondian
There’s a bit of a problem with anyone providing you with that information — nobody has been allowed to actually see the charges against him, or the evidence in support of those charges. I’m with you — and, in fact, the AP. It’s certainly possible that Hussein did provide direct support to the insurgents. Let’s see the evidence, please.
calipygian
As far as I’m concerned (and as far as anyone who calls themselves an American is concerned), until the military shows us why they are holding him and actually charge him with something, he’s innocent. There is nothing else to say or think. In Michelle Malkin’s Bizzarro Stalinist Amerikaski, he’s guilty because he has some picture of insurgents in action.
How much you want to bet that as soon as Hillary is sworn in as President, Our Lady of the Concentration Camp will lead the charge for restoration of everyone’s Constitutional rights to a lawyer, to see the evidence the government is using to hold you and the right to have your telephone conversations immune from government scrutiny without a warrant signed by a judge? I’ll bet it takes 15 minutes before she and all the other fucking idiots in the Wingnutasphere to rediscover Jefferson.
RSA
Could someone explain to me why Bilal Hussein is being held by Americans but being tried in the Iraqi court system? I can only assume that the charges will mainly be about actions against Iraqis, but we have other examples of actions against Iraqis (*cough* Blackwater) where the perpetrators were spirited out of the country. Whether Bilal Hussein turns out to be guilty or not guilty, it’s certainly a screwed-up system he’s in.
capelza
Okay, I’ve had my laugh quotient for the day….
Libby Spencer
Working strictly on memory because I’m too lazy to look it all up, Bilal was originally picked up many moons ago for taking photographs or video of an operation being conducted by US troops. I believe he was an unembedded freelance stringer for the AP. It may have been a particularly brutal confrontation he was photographing.
The US took him into custody and seized all his equipment and film. He was never charged with anything when he was arrested. At some point it emerged that he had a few photos of insurgents shooting their guns, apparently taken when he did what journalists used to do, he managed to get behind enemy lines and get their side of the story. To my knowledge he was never charged with anything, in connection with the photos or otherwise.
I think he’s been held without charge for almost two years despite repeated demands from the AP for an explanation. The wingnuts seized on the few photos and started one of their hysteria mobs and suddenly Bilal is being charged as a terrorist, and is to be tried in an Iraqi court under secret evidence that will never be disclosed. I’m unclear as to whether he’s being allowed counsel, or whether he, and his lawyer if he gets one, will even get to know what he’s being charged with. I doubt he will.
The wingnuts are beating their chests about how they singlehanded won “justice” for all true patriots by forcing the US military to bring charges. It appears what Bilal will get is a Gitmo style kangaroo court but without any interfering “activist” type US judges who insist on due process to screw up a pre-determined verdict.
I don’t know if he’s guilty. I tend to doubt it. If the military had any evidence that such a high profile news agency was employing an insurgent, I would expect they would have tried him months ago. As it stands, I think Sully is probably right.
Michelle Mawkish
Are you people blind?1! His last name is Hussein! He must be bad. Unless he doesn’t exist, like Jamil Hussein.
Shit, now you’ve made me forget my talking point!
Libby Spencer
Oh, and I have a vague memory that Bilal may have had a large amount of film and other media because he was working on some sort of expose on military conduct in Iraq at the time. I believe this was also around the time when there had a been a spate of ‘accidental’ shootings of journalists in Iraq by US forces and their allies.
mclaren
The basis of the allegations against Hussein appears to be some pics he took of insurgents engaged in combat. The reasoning goes as follows (AFAICT): how would this guy have pics of insurgents in combat if he wasn’t one of them?
The obvious fallacy with that claim is that reporters have a long history of going where they’re not supposed to go and taking pics of things they’re not supposed to.
At this point, given the fact that essentially every single terrorism case brought by the U.S. government in open court has collapased because of the non-stop lies by government prosecutors, the default assumption must be that if the U.S. government brings terrorism charges against anyone in open court, it’s the curest proof that the defendant is innocent. Just recently, if you recall, a federal judge declared that the CIA could not be trusted in these terror trials becuase they simply lied and lied and lied.
So we know Hussein is innocent. The real question is: how heinous were the abuses committed by government prosecutors while preparing his case for trial? How many lies does Hussein’s indictment contain? How many of Hussein’s constitutional rights were violated? How often was he tortured to get him to confess the crap they’re using in their charges? How many of his family members were threatened with torture? Did government prosecutors waterboard Hussein’s children? Did government prosecutors rape his wife? And so on.
Given past experience, the answer is likely to be “The government prosecutors’ absuses are much worse than even the most paranoid hippy imagined.”
Hunter
calipygian asks:
How much you want to bet that as soon as Hillary is sworn in as President, Our Lady of the Concentration Camp will lead the charge for restoration of everyone’s Constitutional rights to a lawyer, to see the evidence the government is using to hold you and the right to have your telephone conversations immune from government scrutiny without a warrant signed by a judge? I’ll bet it takes 15 minutes before she and all the other fucking idiots in the Wingnutasphere to rediscover Jefferson.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but please:
read to the end
mclaren then decides that since the US military has established a pattern of making a mockery of due process, we should do the same. Given past experience, the answer to his question is likely the one envisaged, but if we’re ever to have a return to the rule of law, we must in this specific case as in ALL specific cases examine the evidence before saying “we know Hussein is innocent” and condemning the prosecutors for “[raping] his wife”. Only by re-inculcating the habits of lawful behavior can we hope to save our social order.
On the general subject of torture, I recently started reading The Body in Pain by Elaine Scarry. I don’t know how many here are really into seriously deep analyses of human nature, but this one is f-ing brilliant.
mk
Glenn Greenwald has pretty much summed up the particulars.
Here is an AP press release that spells out the current cause for alarm.
In short, it appears that Bilal Hussein captured on film scenes that were contrary to the picture the military wanted to portray. But no one really knows for sure:
Military officials have alleged that Hussein, 36, had links to terrorist groups but are refusing to disclose what evidence or which accusations would be presented.
capelza
What is it about Fallujah?
The city is still on lock down mode. This reporter is locked up without a trial or known charges…
What is it about that city that requires such extreme measures?
alphie
The U.S. military is operating as a Christian militia in Iraq?
Go figure…
Psycheout
Unhinged much? We know no such thing. And who’s this “we” your talking about. Do you have a turd in your pocket?
jake
Hearts and minds baybee! Come, risk the ire of your neighbors, expose yourself and your family to the wrath of power tool wielding freakonauts by working for the Americans. And when the chips are down and you really need to get out of the country because you don’t want to suffer death by Black & Decker, you can be sure the Americans will look at you funny and say “Cha right.” Next stop: Syria, Jordan, B-dad again! Better hope the guys who were gunning for you are dead or you’re dead.
And you free lance photographers over there, step right this way. Plenty of money to be made working for the Americans. Unless you take the wrong picture of the wrong thing and the military decides to make an example of your sorry ass because you’re brown and easily labeled as one of of “Them.”
Isn’t democracy great?
jcricket
John – The basic summary has been providing, but this is basically the Jose Padilla case (and Gitmo), just in another country. Indefinite detention with no charges, no presentation of evidence to his lawyers (often claiming state secrets), and most importantly, the ever-shifting rationale/theories the government/military keeps floating for keeping Hussein locked up forever (19 months and counting, no trial).
5 years after locking Padilla up (dirty bomb! dirty bomb!) they charge him with something wholly unrelated to why they originally locked him up. They also only charged him whtn the courts forced them to charge him/let him go. Of course Padilla had been tortured him during that time, often kept him from his lawyers, and when asked to present evidence would often claim the “state secrets” privilege.
As importantly, you can’t believe a thing that’s been said by the wingnuts on anything related to law & order anymore. Terrorism hysteria has rotted away any rational thought about how these cases ought to be prosecuted, starting from the whole “innocent until proven guilty” maxim.
MJ
It’s been reported that Bilal Hussein did not identify himself as a journalist when he was arrested. He hid his identity until a guard recognized him. Why was he trying to hide who he was?
That is typical of most grand jury systems.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
First, Bilal Hussien was captured in the company of at least three known insurgents, including an alleged al Qaeda leader, in a Ramadi apartment… with bomb-making material. Funny how this inconvenient truth is never mentioned by Greenwald(s). No, wait, not funny. What’s the word? Oh, yeah,convenient. We’re to believe he was picked up for speeding and thrown in Abu Ghraib, I suppose.
Second, Bilal specialized in taking “behind-the-jihad” pics of insurgents and al Qaeda as they were attacking election workers, or holding someone hostage, or just posing for him in front of a homemade Death to the Infidels sign. He just happened to be there, perfectly safe, as the terrorists held a hostage. Maybe he and the jihadis were only using each other for their own independent self-interests… or maybe not.
Third, of course the AP hasn’t been informed of the evidence, as the charges haven’t been filed yet. How this simple fact eludes the great (just ask his sockpuppets!) legal mind of Greenwald(s), I cannot possibly know. Is the law different in Brazil, and you have to send a suspect’s employer notification of the evidence against him before he is charged?
DR
Simple: He is not alleged to have done anything. Period. There has been no accusation in the case, which is precisely the problem. He has now been transfered to Iraqi custody, with some mention of triple-ultra-secret evidence against him (of what? again, no mention).
That’s the story: No different than what’s happening in Pakistan, in reality
mk
Libby Spencer
I don’t think that’s true. You got a link to a news source for that?
Delia
It’s been reported by whom? Or are we past the point where we establish establish guilt, or even the appearance of guilt on anything that has the least resemblance to evidence? The merest hint of rumor will do? And since he hasn’t even been charged in front of grand jury, I don’t see why your grand jury comment is relevant at all.
And, Hunter, thanks for the link. Most interesting website. And very accurate, unfortunately.
SPIIDERWEB™
Can’t quite get it down to two paragraphs because of the complexity and cloak of secrecy, but this is the best info I’ve found.
And this.
RSA
I don’t know about others, but my concern is the injustice of putting someone in detention for over a year and a half, without charges. However the case turns out, this is not something that any American should be proud of.
Dennis - SGMM
I must have irrational faith in courts and such but if I had “convincing and irrefutable evidence” then I would have presented it nineteen months ago in court. To hold someone in custody without a charge for this long suggests that the agency in charge is either lying about the evidence or is callously cruel.
In either case, we’re certainly setting a fine example of our faith in justice through law to the Iraqis.
TenguPhule
Shorter M: I’m a fucking moron.
Corrected.
You can always tell the strength of the Military’s cases against Iraqis or Journalists using a simple formula.
Probability of Guilt = Evidence Presented – Seriousness of the Allegations Divided by Weeks Held Without being charged times the square root of Wingnut blogs premptively calling for a firing squad.
The Other Steve
I thought he was the man responsible for Aqua dots.
Gayle Hegland
BILAL HUSSEIN INVESTIGATION by Former Federal Prosecutor Paul G. Gardephe
“A report responding to allegations against an AP photographer held in Iraq”: can be found at http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_international/bilal_document/index.html
“Following is a report on an investigation by attorney Paul G Gardephe on allegations by the U.S. military against Bilal Hussein, an Associated Press photographer held without charge for 19 months in Iraq. The text is complete except names of some witnesses and Associated Press employees have been deleted for reasons of their safety.”
And do not forget the US Constitution and its 6th Amendment, US Citizens:
– Right to Speedy Trial, Confrontation of Witnesses. Ratified 12/15/1791.
“In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.”
“““““““
Also, Iraq has been an UNdeclared war from the very start and so POW rules and US enemy combatant rules do not legally apply. International Rules of Conduct still do, however, and so does the promise of a shared Democracy made by President Bush to the United States Citizens whom are his constituents AND TO THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ.
A fair trial is being denied to an Iraqi journalist, (AGAIN) and that is precisely why it is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. And yet the free world depends on them for constituent information. The job appears to be too dangerous for our own journalists to report on live unless they are holed up in the Green Area or under the direct supervision of the military. That is not on site reporting nor unbiased reporting, fellow citizens.
It is up to the informed reader then to individually decide on what the journalist has reported on and this is business as usual in which a free country depends on to make informed voting choices, and as founding father Thomas Jefferson advocated. That is not treason. The Press is not censored in a Democracy. And for us, we still live in a Democracy not a Dictatorship.
Let us have a free and fair trial then people, we are not barbarians. My God, What has happened to this country? We are civilized enough to give Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, the Shoe Bomber and Zacarias Moussaoui a fair trial, but not a simple journalist?
The fact that Bilal Hussein is not being allowed to defend himself has more to do with the coincidence of his last name (as Rush Limbaugh has bragged) -and as common as the last name Smith is here – than with the 6th Amendment of the United States and Bush’s promise of sharing Democracy with the people Iraq.
Incertus (Brian)
We’re to believe he was picked up for speeding and thrown in Abu Ghraib, I suppose.
Is that really so difficult to believe? Really? I mean, I know you’re a Bush-fellating wingnut and all, Lambchop, but it’s not like the US military has a terrific track record when it comes to tossing Iraqis into jail simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Xenos
FYI, John-
somebody is trolling Digby under your name. No-one is taking the bait, so nevermind.
craigie
I’m with Michelle Mawkish on this one – anyone named Hussein must be guilty of something.
craigie
Yeah, that’s just fucking unbelievable. I mean, we would never do a thing like that. Really, where do you lefties get your ideas?
JWW
John,
For the first time you have proven my point, you are a bottom feeder, sifting through the mulm. As usual, you don’t research, you read an article from your personal favorite sites and print it as truth. This time however, you decide to ask for an answer. Not like you, but is what you truely are. Your a Liberal restriced web surfer, searching for food, that which your school can feed on. Sad, you truely are. SSG
way2blue
John,
The best and most up-to-date summary I’ve read is posted by Scott Horton >>
“U.S. Seeks to Prosecute Pulitzer Prize-Winning A.P. Photographer”
“Reports out since Monday note that the United States Department of Defense will seek to have criminal charges brought against Bilal Hussein, an Associated Press photographer who belonged to a team that won the 2005 Pulitzer Prize for photographs of the war in Iraq. Hussein’s contribution to the package included a series of arresting photographs of close up fighting from the assault on Falluja.
The story was first broken by a right-wing blogger who has has been used as a regular dissemination point for information about the case by senior Pentagon figures. That fact is one of the dead give-aways of the case. This blogger and several of her associates published histrionic attacks on Hussein before he was arrested, claiming that his photographs showed that he was associated with insurgent organizations and attacking the Pulitzer Committee for its decision to honor the A.P.’s submission of war photographs. In the end, the order to arrest Hussein came from very high up, and the reason for the arrest was unmistakable: he was the man who took those damned photographs!…” see the rest at >>
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2007/11/hbc-90001717
The Other Steve
Lambchop is anything but entertaining.
rachel
And JWW is anything but coherent. If he’s not taking drugs, he should be.
Gayle Hegland
What we know now is Maulkin and other right “wingnut” Constitution-hating bloggers like her have now been officially outed as plants for the Pentagon:
“….The source also stated that the Pentagon’s public affairs division, now headed by Dorrance Smith, had been deeply engaged in the matter from the outset. He said that the Pentagon would say that all decisions were made on the ground in Baghdad. “In a formal sense that is true, but Baghdad is dancing to the Pentagon’s tune.” The source also stated that using right-wing bloggers as a means of disseminating the story was a strategy formally embraced by Pentagon public affairs at a very high level. “They’re natural allies. Our message is their message. And they have no particular interest in fact-checking. It drives the mainstream media nuts.” He likened the right-wing blogosphere to sheep dogs who would keep the American mainstream media in line….” Harpers PUBLISHED November 21, 2007
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2007/11/hbc-90001717
fahs ibair
It has been pointed out too many times here, but once again, the Constitution guarantees the rights of Americans.
JPL
Fahs Ibiar:
If you aren’t willing to grant the protection of the Constitution to everyone, then you might as well rip it to shreds.
Fuck off.
fahs ibair
How do you define everyone? Everyone in the States? Everyone sworn to destroy America? More information is needed. Thanks.
alphie
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
I believe Bilal Hussein is a member of the press.
Let’s hope President Hillary disbands the U.S. military when she takes office and builds it up from scratch.
The rot is just too deep to repair.
Grover Gardner
“It has been pointed out too many times here, but once again, the Constitution guarantees the rights of Americans.”
And as Americans we’re very quick to condemn other governments that don’t live up to our standards–such as detaining people without just cause and a fair trial.
rachel
So we can have all these unemployed, disaffected and probably armed men running around loose in the USA? Um… Recent events suggest this is a bad idea.
JPL
Fais:
Are human rights conditional dependent on where someone is? If it’s not okay to infringe an American’s right to freedom of religion, why should it be okay to infringe an Iraqis? Are only Americans endowed “by their Creator” with “inalienable rights”? Or is everyone else untermenschen unworthy of due process? Are you seriously arguing that people from other countries who are “sworn to destroy America” deserve less rights than American criminals?
If you aren’t, get the fuck out of my country. “Live free or die” isn’t just a state motto. I’m not so afraid of a few people who killed 3000 once six years ago when they got insanely lucky in a country of 300 million that I’d start shredding the Constitution.
If you are, you’re a racist fuck. Once more, get out of my country.
Pb
Here’s the NYT article from over a year ago…
…just add 14 months or so to that… right to a what, now? Habeas huh? Geneva… christian college? Consti- pation?
calipygian
fahs ibair –
The Constitution doesn’t say “American born and naturalized men are created equal.” The fifth Amendment doesn’t say “No American shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when a stringer for AP in time of War or public danger;”
Xenos
True, but only because ‘Americans. are a sub-set of of ‘Persons’. The use of ‘person’ throughout the constitution is no accident – part of a whole system of legally significant terms that was critical to the passage of Constitution into the supreme law of the land.
The word ‘American’ does not even appear in the constitution.
The word ‘America’ only appears in the preamble.
ATS
Evidence? Hand him over to CACI and they’ll find it, even if it ‘s under his teeth—but most especially if there is none.
The “foreign special interrogation advisors” of Abu Ghraib can lend a hand, courtesy of our Special Ally. They are, after all, the same people. And your tax dollar at work.
Libby Spencer
Well I’m glad no one relied on my memory. I clearly got the two photographers mixed up. In my defense, the cases are similar, including their names, and damn it’s hard to keep all the outrages straight. They start to blend together after a while.
demimondian
fozzie bear — give it a rest. you’re a loser who can’t even spoof well; fine, you’ve made your point. Now you’re passing beyond “annoying” to “annoying and unfunny”.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
Not to gullible saps, and that’s what Greenwald(s) and Hussein’s AP ass-coverers are counting on — the people’s ignorance of the facts of this case (and too lazy to Google them). That’s why they don’t mention that Bilal was arrested in an apartment with insurgents, an AQ leader, and munitions, and that’s why they don’t mention his “behind the jihad” oeuvre. It raises too many inconvenient questions that they want to avoid.
It’s the braindead pretzel logic of Jose Padilla all over again — if the military is holding them, they must be innocent.
RSA
Only matched by the braindead logic of the authoritarians: If he’s been arrested, he must be guilty–no need for a trial. Indefinite detention is good enough.
demimondian
So, E3L — why don’t you cut and paste a couple of these Google queries? While you’re at it, you might also add a couple of Live Search queries.
I’m interested in how you manipulate the search results to get rid of the results you don’t want, and show the results you do want.
Kynn
I have no idea whether this claim is true.
But, you know, given that the U.S. has an annoying tendency to shoot journalists in Iraq, I can’t say I’d blame him.
(Note: I’m a journalist myself.)
Lambchop meanwhile:
So if Greenwald and the AP are trying to fool the gullible saps by not mentioning these supposed facts, what’s the reason for the military not mentioning these facts and formally charging him, if it’s so easy to figure out?
I don’t know what country you’re from, but over here in America, we have a nice little policy that says something like “everyone who is held by the government is innocent unless proven otherwise in a court of law.”
I realize that you may not have such things wherever you come from, but that must be a very sad country to live in. How often have you had to prove you’re not really a terrorist?
No wonder you despise American values so much. You hate us because we’re free.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
He’s getting his trial. For someone who got picked up under his damning circumstances, he made out OK.
RSA
So you agree that indefinite detention without charges or a trial is a bad thing–dare I say it, unAmerican? Or is the above just a rhetorical point? I won’t hold my breath waiting for an answer.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
Awesome — Al Jazeera’s in the house! Cole, you’re moving on up!
Of course, the military made the circumstances of Hussein’s capture known at the time of his detention. It was in the freaking New York Times (you guys still trust that paper, right?).
However, mentioning the circumstances of Hussein’s capture to the press does not mean the military could move to trial, as I’m fairly certain that just being in the presence of terrorists in an apartment with munitions is not actually a prosecutable offence without evidence that Hussein was further involved. It is, however, a good, smart reason for our soldiers not to turn him out on to the Ramadi streets during a war. As for formal charges, they are evidently imminent.
For a journalist, you aren’t very informed. No, wait… for a journalist, you’re par for the course.
Hello, nuance? Anybody home? Was this a traffic stop in Wichita Falls? Or was this a foreigner caught with terrorists and munitions in a foreign war zone? I suppose to you (a journalist!) it makes no difference. Black/white thinking, and all that rubbish. To the US government and its legal system, it always has made a difference, and it always will.
Hell, the suspicious “foreigners” detained indefinitely without trial by The Holy Father Of Modern Democrats (PBUH) were even American citizens, rounded up in America, detained in America! I doubt you’re really a journalist (at least, I would hope — in vain — that someone like you is not), but even a high school sophomore should know basic American history.
Tsulagi
Yep. I also like this part in the blockquote from the admin’s civilian Pentagon spokesperson…
Yes, classic terrorist SOP made easy by MSM predisposed to hate America. Known truth.
This “terrorist operative” was a shopkeeper selling cell phones before the invasion. Of course that was just deep cover. He was waiting for us. He “infiltrated” AP by having his shop in Fallujah when shit started there and AP was looking for locals to take photos so they didn’t get shot up. Great positioning, plus he knew AP was going to do that so that proves he planned his infiltration operation well in advance.
Compounding those sinister advance actions, he maneuvered AP to hire and pay him on an independent freelance basis. That got him deep into the bowels of the AP hierarchy. Smart move. Can easily see why the same admin guy who calls this a terrorist infiltration of AP would also consider it “convincing and irrefutable evidence.”
Message keepers didn’t like his photos. Pulitzer Prize didn’t help. He’s been bagged up for 19 months so far and counting with no more non-narrative photos during that time from him. Mission accomplished.
Yes, it’s another great day in New Detroit. This photographer can even look forward to possibly many more with his new buddies. Reported by the admin’s press organ…
Are those crazy Iraqis learning democracy or what?! Lucky bastards.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
Again, a little nuance, please. As I mentioned above, in a war zone, you capture an Iraqi in terrorist-held Ramadi consorting with suspected terrorists and Al Qaeda, with bomb-making materials in the apartment. You have no idea who this Hussein guy is, he’s not wearing a uniform because none of them do, and he doesn’t tell you who he is. You probably can’t charge him based on his simply being in the apartment, but it would downright retarded to let him out in Ramadi — it could very well cost Americans and Iraqis their lives.
It’s not ideal, but that’s the middle ground of the detained enemy combatant. As to being un-American, were FDR and Truman un-American? What they did in California went far, far beyond the pale in comparison to what is happening in Iraq. But they were doing what they thought was right to save American lives.
grumpy realist
May I also point out that the assumption of innocence, right to hear the evidence against one, right to confront one’s accuser isn’t written down in the Constitution because it’s a basis of Western law?
You want to get upset about it, go argue with the Inquisition. Yeah, them.
And now we know exactly how much of Western law you wingnuts are willing to throw out the window. ALL of it.
RSA
Here’s a bit of nuance: We have more than the two options of potentially indefinite detention and release. You know, trials.
Are you seriously defending Japanese internment? That’s widely recognized as one of the most shameful bits of American history, and yes, I think that policy was un-American.
demimondian
Once again, E3L — let’s see your Google queries. If they’re so easy to write, I’m all eyes to see them.
Remember, E3L — little lies can be refuted. So, put up or shut up.
TenguPhule
1. Combat zone, not war zone. Get your terms right. Congress Declares war, not El Presidente.
2. Proof of this consorting and bomb materials? If the military *Had* that kind of evidence, why is it not being produced? Why were charges not filed at the time of the arrest?
3. AP has identified him to the military and got stonewalled. Funny how the military that keeps forgetting who’s a journalist in Iraq when they don’t stick to the military approved scripts, eh?
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
He took staged photos of terrorists shooting RPGs. He took portraits of terrorists posing with their guns in front of homemade “Death to Infidels” signs. He somehow got tipped to a daylight execution of two Iraqi election workers, and won a Pulitzer for his photos of the hit. He took “trophy” pics of terrorists posing while holding up the head of a dead hostage. He’s taking these staged photos with terrorists, yet he is perfectly safe.
“Message keepers didn’t like his photos”? I’d say, rational human beings didn’t like his photos.
What a shocker that he was captured in an apartment with terrorists! What were the odds?
TenguPhule
When Hillary’s stormtroopers pick you up, there will be many volunteers to give you the same treatment Padilla got.
I’ll be sure to bring popcorn.
demimondian
Hey, E3L — about those Google queries? I’m still waiting.
TenguPhule
EEEL continues to spout disproved conspiracy theories. Only certified wingnuts still shit about ‘staged photos’ when the evidence is against them.
Next time, brush up on your photography, Tinfoil EEEL.
RSA
Speaking of odds, the American military has held without charges and then released thousands of prisoners. But this time, based on what they’ve said, I’m absolutely certain they’ve gotten it right and Hussein will be convicted.
TenguPhule
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
Well, mainly because you don’t produce evidence before charges are filed.
I fail to see any significance to the AP id’ing the guy (though it’s odd that Hussein apparently didn’t tell anyone that he was with AP, and had to be identified in detention by a soldier who’d seen his photo on a blog).
Are you suggesting that it’s inconceivable that he was getting a check from the AP and was also serving as a house propagandist for the terrorists?
I know the left would love to frame this case as Evil Bush vs. The Whistleblowing Photographer, but get real. Also, I don’t know what planet you’re on, but no journalists are “sticking to military scripts” in Iraq. Any soldier will tell you that.
demimondian
Hey, EEEL! It’s good to see that you’re still here. I’d love to see some evidence to back up your claims, though.
Now, about those Google queries? Inquiring minds want to know.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
What do you need links to, demi?
Tsulagi
Along with this earlier…
So is this insider, big picture info disseminated at one of those Toetappers for Torture concertos? Because according to the admin’s spokesperson, the same one who assures there is “convincing and irrefutable evidence” and this guy is “a terrorist operative who infiltrated the AP, had this to say about his capture…
Whoa! A phony ID! Shit, that alone would be reason for an invasion.
A phony ID. Something the Bush twins could have had when they were drinking underage. A phony ID which is a smart thing to have when cruising around Baghdad or the countryside. Get stopped at a Shia checkpoint, whip out an ID that says “I’m one of you guys.” A little later at a Sunni checkpoint, take out a different ID from another pocket. Helps to cut down on the Black and Decker enhanced interrogations.
So among the two “guests” captured with this photographer, supposedly along with “bomb-making material” according to your sources, one was convicted of having a phony ID. Yep, proof positive he was in the company of the worst of the worst.
Dug Jay
Last I heard, the mighty Kossacks were trying to get Mr. Bilal Hussein qualified to run against Diane Feinstein in the Democratic primary in California.
demimondian
EEEL — you know, the circumstances of Hussein’s capture? The “damning” ones?
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
No way! The AP releases a story on how the AP photog who may have staged photos for the AP and cast the integrity of the AP into question is being railroaded? Well, now I’ve seen everything!
As Karl at PW pointed out, how does that
press releasenews story square with the AP’s “news values?”It’ll all wash out in the trial, I hope.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
SPIIDERWEB posted a NYT link and snip upthread already. You need more?
Libby Spencer
I haven’t trusted NYT since they gave Judy Miller a byline to pass on the fictions about WMDs and we all know that military spokesmen, never lie. I mean for instance, they were right up front about admitting Abu Ghraib before the photos surfaced — right?
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
I know reading isn’t your strong suit, teng, but where did I say that pic was staged? I’ll give you a hint: nowhere.
I’m saying it was awfully strange that Hussein just happened to get tipped off to the terrorist attack. The AP, of course, says that Hussein was only tipped off by his terrorist friends to a “terrorist demonstration on Haifa Street.” And who could figure that a “terrorist demonstration” might turn out to be, well, terrorism? Certainly not the intrepid reporters at the AP!
Pb
Reporter found reporting at scene of news, film at… hey, don’t intern me, bro!
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
Stop supporting the
torturing liars who you can’t trust for a second EVAHtroops so much! It’s embarrassing!And yes, there was a criminal investigation underway re:AG by the military before the photos surfaced. What military spokesman do you accuse of lying about that? Or is Abu Ghraib just your ingrained response to anything about the US military?
I must say, John, these new recruits to BJ are even dumber than the post-Schiavo ones.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
The AP already admitted he didn’t just happen to be at the scene of news. They said he was tipped off by his terrorist pals.
After all, when was the last time you saw live coverage of a murder in the street?
Copyright that.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
When I sign up for Al Qaeda and fly to Pakistan and Afghanistan for training, I’ll deserve it. Actually, I’ll deserve much worse than what Padilla got.
Libby Spencer
Give me a break. That investigation was a coverup until the photos surfaced and I don’t blame the soldiers for it. Grunts don’t do shit like that without orders from above.
But I got more examples of extreme honesty. Just trying to keep my references simple enough for you to grasp. How about Pat Tillman? Jessica Lynch?
mrmobi
Jack Ruby killing Oswald.
Well, Lambchop would have you believe that justice has already been done as regards Abu Ghraib. My goodness, don’t you know that it was just a few bad apples, (almost all curiously low-ranking) who tortured those unfortunate Iraqis.
And where did these folks who were convicted learn these torture and interrogation techniques? We’re just not sure, and their supervisors were always busy doing something else.
Now that all the bad apples have been rounded up, our glorious leadership can go about winning hearts and minds in Iraq, and soon, in Iran.
Huh? We rounded up random folks in California and beat them to death? Waterboarded them, terrorized them with dogs, stacked them naked? What are you smoking there, Lambchop?
What we did in California to loyal Japanese citizens was shameful, and our government has properly apologized for its’ error, but it was a day in a hot tub with mimosas compared to our monstrous treatment of detainess in Iraq.
Before you get your panties in a bunch about me blaming the military for Abu Ghraib, just don’t, you dishonest cretin. The people who tortured and killed at Abu Ghraib had orders to do so, they didn’t just decide one day to become monsters. That’s not to forgive them, but there are reasons why those things happened, and it’s not because our military is evil. It’s because their leaders are not worthy of them, or us.
Tony J
But isn’t this you?
That is the pic you’re saying you haven’t talked about, isn’t it?
Tony J
Oh, I get it.
The sentence in which you you mention the murdered election workers doesn’t actually contain the word “staged”. It’s only the “terrorists shooting RPGs” pics, and the ““trophy” pics of terrorists posing while holding up the head of a dead hostage” that you’re calling “staged”.
And the fact that your last sentence, where you refer to “these staged photos with terrorists”, might make people think that you also meant the pics of the murdered election workers mentioned in the third sentence of a paragraph that only included five sentences, including the one about “these staged photos with terrorists” just proves that lefties have no reading skills.
Well argued, EEEL. Glad I caught that one before I looked silly.
jenniebee
Is it just me, or is EEEL’s argument one that falls apart when taken as a whole? After all, if Bilal Hussein was actually an insurgent-sympathizer, what purpose would he have in joining the AP? Wouldn’t he have done more for his cause by, instead of running to photo a demonstration, maybe participating in it? Or let’s say that no, the real war (TM) is a propaganda war being fought by our brave 101st Keyboard Kommandos here vs. People Who Take Pictures Showing Not All Is Well In Anbar Province. In that case, wouldn’t there be more Iraqis with cameras, filling the gap left by Hussein’s arrest?
But leaving that aside, what terrorist activities was he supposed to have taken part in? Even EEEL isn’t accusing him of anything beyond… taking some suspiciously good pictures. He’s not accused of divulging military secrets because he didn’t have any to divulge – he wasn’t embedded with any units. The worst they can say about him was that he knows people they didn’t like at the time (given the shifting political alliances over there, who knows what side those three alleged terrorists with whom he was arrested are on now) and took pictures they still don’t like.
So he’s accused of being a terrorist without being accused of actually taking any actions that may be called terrorism. It’s brilliant – you can no longer be held only for what you do in Iraq. Now, you can be held for years and finally put on trial merely for knowing the wrong people, even when knowing the wrong people is your job.
This is the sort of thing that war cheerleaders held up in 2002-03 as evidence of the despicable tyrrany Iraqis were living in under Saddam. I think we can all agree that the world is a much better place now that he’s gone, and that even if it isn’t, Clinton did it too.
Tony J
Oh Noes! I’ve done it again!
It wasn’t the ““trophy” pics of terrorists posing while holding up the head of a dead hostage” that you’re calling “staged”, or even the “portraits of terrorists posing with their guns in front of homemade “Death to Infidels” signs”.
It’s just the “photos of terrorists shooting RPGs” that are “staged”.
Wait a minute… why did you mention them unless you thought they were “staged”?
I’m confused here, EEEL. I think you’d better help me out.
demimondian
Since the snip includes the key claim “His lawyer, Paul Gardephe, said that the allegations were unfounded”, and since, in fact the military has withdrawn those allegations, it’s not that I need more, EEEL, but that I need *something*.
capelza
EEEL…maybe you should research the famous Eddie Adams pic of the execution in Saigon. We had better throw him into Gitmo for it…and “Nick” Ut, too. How dare they be right there on the spot..they must have been “in on it”.
HyperIon
quaint idea, that one.
lysias
Months before Bilal Hussein was arrested, “ajolympian2004” was accusing him on Free Republic of being a terrorist.
lysias
Months before Bilal Hussein was arrested, “ajolympian2004” was accusing him on Free Republic of being a terrorist.
lysias
Months before Bilal Hussein was arrested, “ajolympian2004” was accusing him on Free Republic of being a terrorist.
lysias
Months before Bilal Hussein was arrested, “ajolympian2004” was accusing him on Free Republic of being a terrorist.
Chuck Butcher
The wingers somehow assume that the “terrorists” are a secret to Iraqis and that this guy couldn’t find out without being one. assholes
That is not the USA where it’d be a deep dark secret, it’s a land of tribes and close neighborhoods, dipwits, people talk amongst themselves, though certainly not to the “Crusaders.” I have no idea if he’s what AP says or the military says, but the Constitution does control the actions of the citizens of its land and sets a philosophical frame for their treatment of others.
Officious Pedant
Lambchop,
Every day I have to endure some pseudo conservative chowderhead demanding proof as to some assertion or another. Always with the caveat that the source must be neutral, so as to avoid any hint of partisanship. Yet, that same knuckle dragging mouth breather will post links to that twit Malkin, or some other authoritarian thug like Coulter or Protein Wisdom.
You have made assertions here, Lambchop, and I want to see the neutral source articles that confirm your assertions. Otherwise you are simply regurgitating the unfounded charges of Malkin and her ilk, and should shut the fuck up. It’s too late to salvage your credibility, but some hope remains for your dignity.
Or, for the easily offended manly men of conservatism, you should feel free to continue to spout your allegations. Don’t let me make you feel that I have attmepted to stifle your 1st Amendment rights. Oh, no! Please, tell me more about Vince Foster, and keyboards missing Ws, and the honorable service rendered by President Bush. I can’t wait. Seriously. Hell I’m prepared to listen to you froth at the mouth about any bat shit insane crock of shit you care to share. Oh, and let me just add that along with “no right to privacy” specifically enumerated in the Constitution (a fallacy, but I won’t bother), there also doesn’t exist a right not to be offended. So, if you want to comment on my incivility, I cordially invite you to go fuck yourself.
Officious Pedant
Sorry, John. These gibbering psychopaths always make me feel like stupidity should hurt (ruthlessly stolen epithet, though the source escapes me at the moment). As that is not currently the case, I have only the written word with which to attack them. And I’m all done being polite.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
I disagree. What FDR did in detaining American citizens, miles from the fighting with no evidence of collaboration with the enemy is a far bigger disgrace to what we have done in detaining foreigners captured in circumstances like Bilal Hussein’s. Are you to tell me that the US military had as little cause to believe that Bilal Hussein was in collaboration with the enemy than a random Japanese American in San Francisco in 1942? You’re high on crack.
So, was FDR un-American? Or was he just doing what he thought was safest for Americans in wartime?
Linky linky!
Officious Pedant
FDR was a thug of the first order for incarcerating Japanese Americans on the merest suspicion that they may be a threat to the US. In exactly the same way, arresting an Arab in Iraq does not make them a detained illegal combatant.
And, since you asked so nicely:
Here is one. While you gather your rebuttal, you might want to look at thisas well.
Putz.
Badtux
As someone else mentioned, the Bill of Rights is a list of activities that the U.S. government is prohibited from engaging in. The word “citizen” or “American” is mentioned nowhere in that document. The U.S. government is not allowed to infringe upon the freedom of the press, period, regardless of the nationality of the reporter in question.
As for this particular photographer, it appears his crime is, uhm, well, not shooting at people… not blowing up people… but, uhm, err… taking photographs of bad people. Wow. Musta killed a lotta people with his camera. Why, our brave men and women in uniform just trembled in terror when this sod came at them with his dastardly Camera of Mass Destruction. I can see it now, our brave GI’s on patrol in Ramadi, and suddenly… a soldier falls to the ground. “Sarge! I’m hit! I’m hit!” “What’s the matter, Private?” “The nasty terrorists … TOOK A PICTURE OF ME! Oh the horror!” “Medic!” (Medic trots up, looks at the dying soldier writhing on the ground, looks back at the Sarge). “I’m sorry, Sarge, there’s nothing to be done. He’s been killed by… by… A PHOTOGRAPH OF MASS DESTRUCTION!”.
Phew, boy are we lucky that the perpetrator of such dastardly deeds against our soldiers is now off the streets!
— Badtux the Snarky Penguin
demimondian
Now that we’ve got all that worked out, EEEL? I’m really waiting for your Google queries. Honestly.
Grover Gardner
“So, was FDR un-American? Or was he just doing what he thought was safest for Americans in wartime?”
Your pal Malkin thinks it was just dandy. The rest of us are appalled.
Mc Dime
We gave the Nazis fairly quick and fair trials at Nuremburg. What has happened to us since? When I say “since”, I mean mainly in the past 6 years. There’s an easy answer as to why. God, I hope it really will all be over in about 14 months.
mclaren
Excellent! Now we’re making real progress. We’re getting close to the facts of the case.
Since a neocon said this, we now know definitively that it isn’t true. That’s splendid. We can completely rule out any possibility that Hussein ever had any contact with known insurgents. This is really moving forward. We’re getting somewhere!