Finally, Michelle Malkin and I agree about something. Yesterday, when discussing this story about the British teacher arrested in Sudan for allowing her students to name a teddy-bear Muhammd, Malkin wrote:
If it isn’t cartoons or Western fast-food joints or Valentine’s day cards or beauty pageants or books or speeches or Playboy magazines or soccer balls that have the Religion of Perpetual Outrage up in arms, it’s something else. It’s always something. You can never assuage the unassuageable. You can never anticipate what pretext they’ll use next to claim “insult” and demand submission. Today, it’s teddy bears. Yes, teddy bears.
I agree completely. You never really can tell what is going to get insane culture warriors all riled up. Here is another example of the foolishness, RIGHT HERE IN AMERICA:
As Thanksgiving draws nigh, ’tis the season for War on Christmas skirmishes. In Fort Collins, Colorado, the city council staved off a move to secularize the city’s traditional Christmas display…
Craziness, I say:
Who says the War on Christmas isn’t real? You may recall last December that Sea-Tac airport removed Christmas trees after a local rabbi protested.
Well, a new committee has followed up with its recommendation on what the airport should do this coming year. And the verdict is…Christmas trees out, “Peace and Harmony” first in. No, this is not an item in The Onion. It is real, gentle readers. All-too-real.
I tell you- we have to watch out for people who get all worked up about this kind of stuff. At least here in the US we don’t have to worry about 40 lashes. Yet.
*** OBLIGATORY TROLL PROTECTION ***
No, The War on Christmas folks are not the same as the Sharia nutters in the Teddy Bear story. It is, however, the same exact type of crazy- just taken to different levels.
If you support peace and harmony, you support the terrorists.
Damn, for a moment there I’d thought MM had achieved self-awareness.
O noes! Not peace and harmony to celebrate the birth of Jesus! If they ask for Good Will Towards All Men, I’ll start shootin’.
Christ these people are dumb fuckers.
Corrected for the children.
Yeesh, if only some of these blunt sporks realized that christmas trees are about as christian as halloween.
The war on pagan ritual continues. Personally, I think we should declare real, open war on Xmas just to fuck with these people. Seriously, isn’t that what they have been doing to us the last 15 or 20 years? Let’s just fuck with them. Keep them in court defending Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer.
Next thing you’ll see is some illegal Mexicans kid naming his Santa Bear – Jesus or Maria. This Mexican influence is going to ruin our Kulture, McDonalds now serves Tacos. There really is a “War on Christmas and Easter and Sanity”. If only we kept the Irish and Italians out…
Key word. You have to wonder how much of this bloviating is actually from jealousy that they can’t pull the same BS.
How do you have the stomach to read that shrill cow?
I’m going to recognize a War on Christmas when somebody tries to make it hard for me to attend Midnight Mass on the evening of His birth. Until then, I’m with TZ — it’s a War on Pagan Ritual. What’s Michelle “Six-O’Clock-News-Anchor-Baby” Malkin’s problem with that?
The irony is entirely lost on her, isn’t it?
I agree with Malkin. Self-aware or not, Malkin and the Wingnutz ARE more like the Islamo-freakout-artists than the rest of “us” probably ever will be and I think that they understand their wingnut counterparts in the Islamic world better than most non-wingnut Americans.
She may not recognize that she could also be describing herself, but that doesn’t mean that she doesn’t recognize how other wingnuts think. She does. She knows EXACTLY how crazy perpetually outraged whackjob bitches think. She just doesn’t know why she knows.
Kinda like Tracy Morgan playing a wacked out egomaniacal black guy on 30 Rock?
Wow, change one word and it still holds up!
The horror, the horror…
And it’s only appropriate that, as a ROPO member (Christian variety), Malking also belongs to POPO (the Party of Perpetual Outrage).
Heh, when I first read the article elsewhere, I thought the Sudanese were going to flog the Teddy Bear.
Amazing, isn’t it Tim?
Many of my family converted to being Jehovah’s Witnesses when I was a kid (we are all Jews by birth), so it really put a spotlight on all the holidays. The fact is, every single christian holiday that is celebrated is based on pagan rituals.
But don’t let that stop the christian culture warriors from getting all up-in-arms over their faux-holy days. I mean, most of these people haven’t a clue what it means to be a real christian since they all love the ‘eye for an eye’ bit that is quite antithetical to Jesus’ teachings.
The ignorance is breathtaking.
Wait, what if we rename the teddy bear “Jesus,” make a whole bunch of ’em, and sell ’em to the Malkintents for $19.95 a pop (plus s/h)? Then we’ll be doing the most important thing anybody can do for Christmas: Cashing in.
Wasn’t Bill O’Reilly all pissed off recently because some town put white lights up instead of COLOURED christmas lights?
Since when did that become the standard?
How can anyone take that blowhard seriously?
spoosmith…I hadn’t heard that. I love the little white fairy lights. It’s been the thing out here for years.
Here again…the Sudan, another stronghold of SUNNI extreme religious beliefs. The place OBL was hanging out…of course there is extreme of extreme there. And yet…we are all about the Shi’ites. THEY are the bad guys.
Which reminds me…last year I was crusing through some pictures of Tehran…and they were selling Xmas trees on the street and all the same cheap XMAS crap we buy from China. It was an eye-opener. Not, disclaimer to follow, that I think that Iran is a bastion of religious freedom…by any means. But it was instructive to me about how things are not always what they seem.
Last year in Tehran, scroll down the page…
Again, disclaimer..Iran is no paradise, but they have freaking Santa Clauses for sale on the street of the capitol city. I am sure that will please the people screaming about the War on Christmas…
works fine without the change, too, since Republicanism is clearly a religion.
Hardly the first time.
Yes, perhaps they should get out their Bibles and look up Jeremiah 10:2-5:
Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
They [are] upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also [is it] in them to do good.
I saw a re-run of “Not Without My Daughter” recently, and was struck by the scene in which Sally Field’s husband’s family went out of their way to celebrate Christmas with her…in a fully-decorated house complete with tree. This in the midst of one of the most anti-Iranian movies out there at the time.
q. Isn’t Muhammad a common Muslim name? Why is Muhammad Ali an OK name for a person? What is it about teddy bears?
Someone enlighten me!
Leaving aside that Jeremiah was, in fact, a bullfrog, I find it interesting that you would cite a passage from the Old Testament to show how God doesn’t like Christmas trees (which, by definition, would reference stuff from a Newer Testament). Granted, there’s that whole omnipotence thing, but it does seem a bit ahead of its time.
Come on… you don’t actually expect Christians to READ the bible, do you?!? Its just supposed to sit on their coffee tables, so that people visiting can notice how holy they are.
I’m no expert, so I could be wrong, but I think it’s all in the spelling.
Muhammad Ali = OK
Prophet Mohammad = Not OK for a name
Oh that’s right..I forgot about that…they did.
I admit to an interest in Iran..through the back door of history. Searching for articles and information about the Achaemenid period I come across a lot of contemporary things about it, by it, etc. The very ancient Persian New Year (very pre-Islamic) is widely celebrated there, even the islamic government recognises it…
As is always the case, especially when one wants to see Iran as THE arch-enemy, the real, complex country and it’s people get lost. It still galls me beyond belief that after 9/11 we had a chance for real dialogue with them and what does President idiot do? Call them part of the “Axis of Evil” and then get pissy when when Iran reacts to that and the fact that the U.S. is occupying a country on either side of them.
Again, disclaimer, the Iranian government is not good, theocracies are bad. But ti think that Iran should sit idly by while the U.S. is literally at it’s doorstep, front and back, rattling a big ass sabre at them that they will not be involved in some way in teh countries next to each of them. The real disconnect is that some people think they have no right to do so. When we would and do (and not just next door) regularily interfere in countries not our won.
Sigh…again, not defending Iran, but being realistic.
Anyhoo…Bill O, Michelle and all your wingnut friends…the spirit of Christmas is alive in fucking Iran…please adjust for the disconnect. They’ve also produced two films, one about Mary and one about Jesus (from the Koranic view of course). Do you praise them for not banning it or deride them…hmmmmm.
Except they use a whole different alphabet, and write from right to left.
“Leaving aside that Jeremiah was, in fact, a bullfrog, I find it interesting that you would cite a passage from the Old Testament to show how God doesn’t like Christmas trees (which, by definition, would reference stuff from a Newer Testament). Granted, there’s that whole omnipotence thing, but it does seem a bit ahead of its time.”
Well, the folks that perpetuate the ‘War On Christmas’ kerfuffle each year are the same ones that take Old Testament verses about homosexuality as “Gospel,” and ignore completely the adjoining verses from the same book (is it Leviticus?) that require ritual cleansing after a woman’s period, mandate taking one’s brother’s widow to wife, forbid eating shrimp, authorize slavery, etc.
So if the OT is good enough to condemn gays, it’s good enough to condemn the HOPOs (Hypocrites of Perpetual Outrage).
It is good John Cole to see you admit that there is a War on Christmas and that Michelle Malkin is right!
I always loved this exchange that President Bartlett had with a right-wing talk show “doctor” on “West Wing”
I believe Robert Altemeyer said something like (paraphrased) “Fundamentalist Christians do not seem to believe what is written in the Bible so much as they believe in things they have been taught about the Bible”
I think its the best way of putting it I’ve heard yet.
To many Fundies the Bible isn’t just a coffee table decoration. It borders on being an idol. Same with Jesus – its not about understanding his message and following his instructions so much as doing whatever you do in his name.
Yes, ignorant Christians should get a clue–‘Christmas’ is a wicked heathen celebration, and Jesus was really born on September 11th, 3 B.C. There, that should clear things up…
Unless I am mistaken, a lot of the stuff in Jeremiah was written as prophetic, Jeremiah was a prophet and writing warnings to the Hebrews. Again unless I am mistaken.
Sorry man, but this is total bullshit.
The reason: Nothing in the story of the Nativity is based on any real historical event. It is an entirely mythical scene built on mythical elements that were already ancient at the time. The Nativity is ENTIRELY FICTIONAL and therefore cannot be dated by astronomical details provided therein.
Aha! But the Hebrews don’t put up Christmas trees! Some prophet he turned out to be!
And don’t even get me started on how many things were stolen from the pagans, especially WRT christmas.
More regarding the “Christian-ness” of “Christmas”.
Compare Jesus and John the baptist.
Jesus – born on the winter solstice (the point of transition from days getting shorter to days getting longer) to a very young mother who was virgin
John – born on the summer solstice (the point of transition from days getting longer to days getting shorter) to elderly mother who was infertile.
Im sorry, but this has “Astrological Metaphor” written ALL over it.
And the same bunch who dont wants trees or nativities are the same bunch who allow QUETZAL COATYLE IDOLS or STATUES OF VARIOUS PAGAN DEITIES i mean some city in ALABAMA has already paid in tax payers money a enormous price for a statue of the pagan god VULCAN and look at those city councils that have replaced their usial christian prayers with a bunch of wackos wearing kookie masks and prancing through the city meeting room beating drums and making goofy sounds WACKOS ALL THE WAY
There IS a War on Christmas. You’ve seen the REAL PHOTO, haven’t you?
That’s actually the second tree. The Christmas tree in the first photo was taken by Rick Santorum, so they had to reshoot it.
Granted. I guess I thought it was a safe assumption that they were spelled differently in the respective native languages as well.
I guess that’ll teach me to assume anything…
Sounds like a quote from a lawyer, “Your honor, leaving aside for the moment that my client, Jeremiah, was a bullfrog, let’s instead focus on the joy he brang to the world.”
lurking as usual
You’ve really got to watch the movie Zeitgeist. At least the first 1/2 hour or so. It does an excellent job of dissecting damn near all religions. It’s all about astrology. All of it.
It’s an internet-only film, as far as I’ve been able to find. Google it.
I have to post my annual reposting of Fafnir’s “The Long, Jolly Slog”.
And WHERE is the outrage over the War On The National Anthem by Professional Sports? Hmmm?
Anthem Skipped Before Dolphins – Steelers
To many Fundies the Bible isn’t just a coffee table decoration. It borders on being an idol. Same with Jesus – its not about understanding his message and following his instructions so much as doing whatever you do in his name.
I agree completely. Those shrimp eating heathens think that if they give Jesus credit for their actions (and everything else), he will rain down the prosperity. They basically treat Jesus like a Baal in a robe.
A disclaimer: I am not a practicing anything when it comes to the faiths of this world, but was raised Catholic and studied the worlds religion’s with great interest in college. I support first amendment rights first and foremost before any other concern.
Having got that out of the way, I think you guys deserve to get kicked in the head for tooling on others religious icons for the pure sake of being dicks. Where’s the mockage of Islamic headwear/customs/icons? How ’bout those Jewish skull caps, huh? Any one of either faiths writings contain the same “fiction” and “Myth” as the Christian texts, but dare say anyone you mock those to this extent.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, burning flags, desicreating, or otherwise mocking someone’s faith like this only has one motive and that’s to piss someone off. If that’s your intent, don’t be so surprised if someone acts on the anger you’ve inspired.
Why can’t you discuss this issue without insulting the Christians of the world? I just don’t understand why that’s necessary.
Uh, yeah, that’s what’s happening here. Because some self-righteous fundamentalists get their religion mocked, everyone’s mocking religion.
I do see a lot of skeptics here, and some that are clearly arguing religion doesn’t serve the world well (but that’s not insulting, per se, it’s an argument with some support).
But c’mon, people who go around prophesying about end times and insulting the rest of us as heathens surely deserve a little mockery.
You know, I have always found that argument a tad disingenuous. I am an EX-Christian. I mock what was shoved down my throat for nearly 20 years. If I was an EX-Jew or an EX-Muslim, I’d mock that. As it stands, I wasn’t raised with and can’t quote the Talmud or the Quran, so I’m not really in a good position to point out the gulf between their sacred texts and the way the majority actually practice religion. I absolutely can quote parts of the bible, however, and I have noticed that there seems to be a huge disconnect between what the bible says and how most Christians live their lives. As a lesbian, it is pretty disturbing to be denied civil rights because of what the bible says about homosexuality, even though the same people who want my rights denied absolutely ignore biblical injunctions about all sorts of culturally inconvenient things. Then, in the same breath, they turn around and act like they are the ones who are a victimized minority (ie.. war on Christmas). So, I’m sorry. They deserve mockery.
Thanks for proving my point.
Christmas is not a christian icon. Neither is Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, crucifixes (especially these since they violate on of the 10 commandments) or the pope himself. They are all artificial contstructs of paganism and other more ancient belief systems merged with ‘christianity’ to make it more acceptable to the masses.
Speaking in strict terms of how Jesus intended his followers to act (as per the Bible), there is no such thing as a christian ‘icon’. It is entirely antithetical to what it means to be a follower of Jesus, i.e. a christian.
And as I mentioned regarding crucifixes, you may want to take note of the inconsistency between the notion of a christian icon and the second commandment – You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Playing fast and loose with definitions is the only way to somehow construe that icons and idols are not one in the same.
I call spoof. No wait…
Yep. Spoof. Sort of a cross between Birdzilla and 28 Percent.
You are referring to what is written in the old testament. As far as the new testament is concerned, Jesus preached tolerance and love for all people. If being a lesbian is wrong, then that is between you and G-d. People have no business passing judgment on their fellow human beings.
Unfortunately, most so-called christians pay more attention to the writings of the old testament than they do to the new testament, which is supposed to be the foundation of their faith. If they want to live by the old testament, they should become Jews.
The Other Steve
I didn’t read all the messages here, but it’s a fair point.
I think the answer is for everybody to ignore each others religion.
Now that’s difficult to do when you got fucktards going around trying to force it on you. See when you do that, you inevitably provoke someone to be upset with you. But apparently some people think that’s ok. I can’t diss on them, but it’s ok for them to diss on me. Huh?
Why can’t people discuss religion without feeling a need to moralize and force it upon the public? This seems to be a particular problem of late with the Catholic church. Ever since it came out that they were diddling little boys in the back room, they’ve felt a need to moralize in public more.
I thought it was pretty fucktarded recently when the cab drivers here in Minneapolis made it known that they weren’t going to carry people with alcohol. Or the guy at the grocery store made it known they weren’t going to sell pork. I say go get another job.
But you know who empowered them? The fucktards who made a big deal about not dispensing birth control at the pharmacy. They’re the ones who started this craziness, so it’s hard for me to not want to diss on them too.
I’m an equal opportunity hater. I hate everybody who gets in my face.
The Other Steve
It’s not so much that. They pick and choose what to believe.
It was really weird meeting born-again Christians in Europe. They were pacifist hippies. It was so different. None of the hatred, or anger that we get here in the states.
OK, so for those of you who don’t know, I am a committed Christian. I believe that the sin of pride is the One Sin which led to mankind’s Fall.
Here’s a tough message: if a Christian can’t make fun of the sins of the Church — and there are a lot of them, as we’re as human and fallible than anyone else — then he has set himself up a comfortable human idol in place of the real, and far more challenging God.
There is a War on Christmas, but it has nothing to do with Christmas trees or creches on courthouse lawns. The War on Christmas is fought every year, starting on Black Friday and running through Boxing Day.
And guess what? Christmas is losing — and Michelle Malkin is fighting on the side of the stores.
The Other Steve
Yep. ’nuff said right there.
Michelle strikes in Kenya. Going global.
And let’s not get into the picking-and-chosing most so-called Christians do. Hate on the gays, but eating shrimp is fine….
I’d have more respect for Christians if they had more respect for those of us who aren’t Christian. Get the proselytizers off my steps. Live and let live. And stop being hysterical about Halloween, ok?
Historically, you guys have built up some pretty bad karma, so don’t be surprised if you’re now getting blowback, ok? Go read what your people did to Hypatia, and then come back and talk to me about the “sweet gentleness of Christianity”–if you dare.
Interesting that this the second time in three work days that Hypatia has come up — the first time, I said something about the flesh having been scraped off a server’s bones with sharpened shells, and one of my colleagues said “you know, I didn’t expect references to the library in Alexandria”.
So, yes, I know what happened to Hypatia. I also know of the Crusades, the pogroms, the blood libel, the silence in the face of the mass kidnapping and enslavement of Africans, the “missions” to the Indians, and a whole lot more. I’m sorry. They are all stains on the Church. I can’t undo them, however.
Are you talking about male guys or Christians? ;-)
As a deeply committed Druid, I am outraged at the sacrilegious appropriation of my religion’s icon by these upstart Christians. Time for some human sacrifices.
And if Christians want others to be more respectful of their beliefs, then they can lead by example and show us the way. If they think they represent the bestest religion in the world, let’s see some leadership instead of this constant whining about other people’s behavior. We’re waiting…
yet another jeff
Personally, I just hope the War on Christmas ends while Ken Burns is still alive to make the documentary.
“Mother, it’s been long since I’ve written, but the WoC continues apace. I shant speak of the horrors I’ve witnessed, on the field of battle, but for this one monstrosity. Earlier today, I saw a Happy Holidays sign in a Whataburger window. Don’t they know there is only one holiday? The callous disregard of humanity exhibited by the enemy is easily forgotten at times…perhaps the grind of battle dulls my soul…but, when I see such displays, I feel again…I feel the overwhelming horror and sadness that such things could happen in a free society. I wish I could come home and see you all once again, perhaps then the nightmares will cease, if only for the time we’re together. Maybe I’ll drive across town and we can have lunch next Saturday. Fare thee well….”
Actually, the only kind of homosexuality condemned in Leviticus is male-on-male… as a sin, lesbianism doesn’t rate a mention.
Hey, why do you think so many red-blooded homophobic men are seriously into hot lesbian porn? Because God doesn’t have a problem with it. Turn up the volume and pass the myrrh my way, brother…
Yes, just like someone who goes deer hunting, and someone who kills people for fun. Same craziness, just taken to different levels, right? How about people who protest for animal rights vs. people who plant bombs over the issue? Just different levels of the same kind of nuttiness?
Some of us believe that complaining about something (like the war on Christmas) is not just different in magnitude, but different in type from actually making a law against insulting religion and administering floggings against the offenders.
One is simply free speech, the other is forcing beliefs on someone else with the rule of law. But that’s just the opinion of crazy people like me.
Yes, that very realistic “impromtu” exchange where the rather non-religious President just happens to have a whole list of Biblical references at his fingertips. Problem is, ALL of his references were from the Old Testament. So unless Bartlett was an Othodox Jew, they don’t apply.
Actually, as a lesbian you may have a loophole of sorts. There is a lot of misunderstanding over this issue. There are no Biblical passages against homosexuality per se. There are many Biblical passages condemning male homosexual acts, but none specifically condemning female homosexual acts (although Romans 1:26 hints at it).
He quoted the Old Testament back to her because that was what she had been using as support for her own arguments.
Doesn’t sound like you followed “West Wing” too closely, either. Aaron Sorkin developed Bartlet’s character as a Catholic with very deep beliefs; he had attended Notre Dame and at one point had thought about going into the priesthood. As evidenced in the episode of Mrs. Landingham’s funeral, he had a very personal relationship with his God. There was nothing “non-religious” about the character — quite the contrary.
I have not seen every episode, so thank you, I stand corrected. But then his being Christian causes another glaring problem:
All she had to do then was quote the New Testament’s passages on homosexuality, and he wouldn’t have any retort. But the writers preferred to have an easier debate against a straw man.
How is that a “glaring problem”?
Um, actually, John, he would have. It’s called St. Peter’s Vision of the Sheet. There’s also quite a bit of Pauline text which speaks to the issue.
Grumpy realist, Demi… I was just rereading about Hypatia and the lost Lost Library of Alexandria. Her father was the last head of the Library, until it was closed by the Emperor in 391 when he ordered all the pagan temples destroyed. Hypatia’s murder was the puncuation of that sentence.
Though the library was already destroyed I think, for the most part, by war and riot starting with Caesar’s entry to Egypt (though he had the good “grace” to raid the library of Pergamon to replace it). Though the Chrisitan heritage of Rome can be seen as a continuation of “empire” and the need to destroy the “enemy”.
Of all the things lost in the ancient world…that Library haunts me. But it being officially shut down was, to me, the death knell of the ancient pagan world…the Hellenistic one anyway. I have fantasies tha somewhere out in the dry desert some forethinking soul hid big chunks of it..waiting to be discovered.
Oh, an aside. A writer I know has an interesting theory that the body of Alexander was not lost in the same mayhem…but disappeared at about the same time that the body of St. Mark was “found” in Alexandria and taken to Venice. Not sure that I agree, but it is a charming idea that in some ways makes a lot of sense.
You may have quite an argument with the Greek/Syrian/Eastern/Russian Orthodox Church on that one — one of the reasons the Orthodox and Catholic churches split.
Many of the early settlers — Puritans, Quakers, etc., — were not allowed to celebrate Christmas, because it was considered a pagan holiday. Brian Kilmeade’s head would explode if you told him that, tho.
But, then, Brian once said — on air — that with the War on Christmas, religious symbols like Frosty the Snowman wouldn’t be allowed much longer. Heh.
First, lots of things in that section of Leviticus are referenced as sins. But what’s more telling is specifically what else is referred to as “an abomination”. Same Hebrew word as what’s used in that one passage about male-on-male homosexual acts.
Hint: Pretty much everything that Christian’s do/eat is an abomination.
As someone pointed out in another thread, right-wing Christians appear not so much to believe in the actual Bible, but what they’ve been taught it said.
Svensker…are you serious..he actually said that Frosty was a religious symbol?
St. Frostinian the Snowman…and I thought that picture I saw of him in a Nativity scene was a silly mistake.
yet another jeff
This was a fun article
Summary of ‘The New Testament and Homosexuality’
By Robin Scroggs, professor of New Testament, Union Theological Seminary, a happily married heterosexual who has been acclaimed in many Christian publications for his serious research about what the New Testament really says about homosexuality.
Scroggs reason for his research was a discussion of homosexuality by ministers. “I sat amazed as I heard the Bible being invoked in ways that were wholly inappropriate to any canons of biblical scholarship. Perhaps something snapped in me…for better or worse I decided somebody needed to provide resources that would give both clarity and honesty.” He says he has no personal interest but sees the tragic results of false biblical scholarship and the tragic rejections of homosexuals in the name of Christian righteousness or even love. It is about time someone spoke honestly about the issue, not just from emotional homophobic assumptions of what the New Testament really says.
1. The NT church was not very concerned about homosexuality as a problem, All three instances referring to homosexuality are from preformed traditions, either Greek or Jewish. No single NT author considers the issue important enough to write his own sentence about it! The argument “against nature” is the most common form of attack on pederasty in the Greco-Roman texts. Pederasty involved forced male rape even by heterosexuals and slave boy prostitutes. It says nothing about today’s loving homosexual relationships. Even in Romans 1, where Paul integrates the illustration of homosexuality into his larger theological arguments, there is no advance beyond idolatry and pagan vices of 1 Cor 6:9.
2. Female homosexuality gets even less attention appearing only in Romans 1, and here with less emphasis than male homosexuality. This is doubtlessly because little was said in the Greco-Roman world about lesbianism, and because in OT law no penalties attached to such female practices. This again suggest pederasty was the vice, not homosexuality in general. In Romans 1 Paul’s language “about male homosexuality, must have had, could only have had, pederasty in mind.”
3. The two vice lists attack very specific forms of pederasty, not homosexuality in general.
Scroggs concludes: “The basic model of today’s Christian homosexual community is so different from the model attacked by the New Testament that the criterion of reasonable similarity of context is not met. The conclusion I have to draw seems inevitable: Biblical judgements against homosexuality are not relevant to today’s debate.. should in no way be a weapon to justify refusal of ordination, not because the Bible is not authoritative, but simply because it does not address the issues involved”. He concludes with more discussion that pederasty was the issue of the biblical texts, not today’s homosexual relationships.
Yes. After he said it, he got a really concentrating look on his face, like he was thinking really hard, and then said, “well, maybe Frosty’s not exactly a religious symbol….”
But Frosty did say, “I’ll be back again someday”, leaving open the possibility of the Second Coming.
Has sudden image of Frosty descending from the heavens with outsteched palms showing the stigmata…the heavenly host consisting of elves, reindeer, and a fat jolly Father…
yet another jeff
Frosty, from the heavens, saying “Happy Birthday!”
Which were, as I recall, all in the letters of Paul. Paul didn’t like homosexuality, but Jesus — you know, the actual deity — never said a thing about it.
Unless you count all that touchy-queery “love thy neighbor” garbage.
The War on christmas is getting earlier and earlier…
DEATH TO FANATICS! EVERY FANATIC MUST BE PURSUED AT
ALL COSTS AND EXTERMINATED!
Wrong! Try again. Jesus in his own words NEVER claimed he supplanted the old law.
Jesus believed that the Old Testament was divinely inspired, the veritable Word of God. He said, “The Scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35). He referred to Scripture as “the commandment of God” (Matthew 15:3) and as the “Word of God” (Matthew 15:6). He also indicated that it was indestructible: “Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished” (Matthew 5:18). Notice that he mentions even the words and letters!
If you are going to worship the book, then at least read it already!
Funny how Michelle mentions Playboy. She will defend the religious right’s attempt to ban the magazine but will use it to make her argument against the Islamic wack jobs.
Pot meet kettle.
Ya know, I welcome this verdict, since she didn’t get flogged. The kids in question are going to remember this. They are going to grow up. And the ignorance and stupidity of this event is going to stay with them. I choose to look at this as the first seeds of doubt that will throw off the yoke of extremist oppression in the next generation.
Yeah, I’m quixotic, but what the hell? Anyone seen my lance?
Do you really have such a glaring misconception about that scene? He wasn’t arguing against her beliefs, he was showing that she was a hypocrite. Which she was. Just like all extremist right-wing christians, she was cherry-picking the verses that support her bigotry and ignoring everything else. Cherry-picking yet more verses elsewhere in the book wouldn’t have helped her at all. It would have done the reverse, showing her up as nothing more than a disingenuous one-issue pundit.
To answer a previous question that was never really addressed, the Syrians got angry about the teddy bear because they believe that naming it after the prophet is idolotry, and therefore blasphemous. Naming people Mohammed is ok in their eyes. Naming things Mohammed is not.
Uh, “Sudanese”, I meant.
//Some of us believe that complaining about something (like the war on Christmas) is not just different in magnitude, but different in type from actually making a law against insulting religion and administering floggings against the offenders. One is simply free speech, the other is forcing beliefs on someone else with the rule of law.//
It wasn’t that long ago that school prayers were said in every school in the US. Christian school prayers, mostly Protestant (unless you went to a Catholic school). A lot of people want to bring that back. At least we never did anything like accuse people of being witches and torture and hang them. And you couldn’t go to jail for having consensual anal sex with your wife. Or for cheating on your spouse. Or for making alcohol. Or for selling it in one of the remaining dry counties. Oh, wait…
Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Valentines Day, etc. ALL HOLIDAYS AND ITS A TRADITION. What is wrong with TRADITION?
I think every American should post cartoon pictures everywhere, something like a taggers revolt.
This weird reverence is for them to follow; not the rest of us. I think all the rest of the sane world should name all their pets Mohammed from now on; as well as their stuff animals, their dolls, their cars, their private parts…
Personally, this type of Muslim observances make their religion look like a cult.