After months of playing the coy game of “if torture is so bad, why don’t you specifically outlaw it,” Bush and the dead-enders are going to get what they want:
In a sharp rebuke to White House counterterrorism policy, a Congressional conference committee has voted to outlaw the harsh interrogation techniques used by the Central Intelligence Agency against suspected high-level terrorists.
The vote to require all American interrogators to abide by the Army Field Manual, which prohibits coercive methods, came during negotiations of the Senate and House intelligence committees over the annual intelligence authorization bill. It will not be the last word on the subject; the full House and Senate must still pass the bill, and it would likely face a veto by President Bush.
But passage of the interrogation restriction — by one vote in a tense, three-hour meeting on Wednesday behind closed doors — reflected Congress’s growing disenchantment with the harsh tactics authorized by the White House after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. It was the latest setback for the administration’s insistence that what it calls “enhanced” interrogation techniques are a critical part of gathering intelligence to thwart future terrorist attacks.
Bush can then veto it, and the NRO can cheer him for protecting us all.
r€nato
and if the veto is overridden, Bush will ignore it anyway ‘cuz he said the magic word, ‘war’, and that gives him the right to do whatever he wants.
jenniebee
Aw, shit. It already was outlawed. Passing another bill reiterating the illegality of it just gives credence to the argument that waterboarding wasn’t illegal under the earlier law because the earlier law just said “no torture” which nobody really thought meant “no
waterboardingtorture.” So basically, this just exonerates the bastards who did it previously. And it means that the tortuous practice that wasn’t specifically mentioned in this bill that the CIA moves to next, the door will be open to the same kind of argument – if you meant that you didn’t want us to use thumbscrews and the rack, why didn’t you say no thumbscrews or racks when you said no waterboarding? It means that outlawing torture is now a game of whack-a-mole.Woot!
John Cole
I know that. You know that. We all know that. The current dead-ender position on torture is almost like someone getting caught for animal cruelty and stating: “Sure, there are all these vague international laws and treaties and of course several domestic laws against generic animal cruelty, but nowhere did I see that it is against the law to gouge out the eyes of kittens and skullfuck them. If you think that is so bad, have Congress outlaw it. Until then, I will consider it enhanced play techniques.”
We have reached a level of heightened absurdity.
Ned Raggett
Does a flat whimper count as a cheer?
Napoleon
Of course what they are passing could be worded in a way to handle that concern “where as it is illegal to waterboard as a violation of the torture provisions of USC Section ___,”
Xenos
And if the fix is in with Roberts and Alito, they know their posteriors are covered. Since Alito got away with lying in his confirmation hearings, and Roberts will not recuse himself as required, they will get away with it, I fear.
Plan B will need to involve rendition to The Hague. The first couple years of the Obama/Richardson presidency is going to be pretty interesting.
Tim F.
As long as we’re banning specific practices, the CIA can just switch to a type of waterboarding that Congress did not specifically ban. Agreed with others who point out that blanket bans on torture already ban what we do and Congress would be better off forcing the courts to rule on that. Really, if SCOTUS wants to invalidate Geneva and legalize whatever sadistic crap Blackwater’s police academy dropouts can think up then we might as well get on with it.
Zifnab
SIGNING STATEMENTS BITCHES!
“As chief executive officer and functional illiterate, I hereby interpret this bill to prohibit water boarding and other aforementioned forms of interrogation, except in the instances of a Jack Bauer Senario, when dealing with people we’re really super sure are already guilty of something, or when an enemy combatant just isn’t telling us what we want to hear.”
Unfortunately, SCOTUS has already ruled on a number of these Bush Doctrine cases and found them all wanting. And that still hasn’t prevented travesties like Gitmo to persist. I can’t really fault Congress for reiterating exactly how much they disapprove of torture. I can, however, fault the general apathy within the system. At a certain point, “But the President Told Me To Do It” is no longer an acceptable excuse for men in uniform. Every General still in uniform, every commanding officer who hasn’t been busted for disobeying orders, every grunt with a pair of sponges hooked up to a car battery, ultimately has blood on his hands in this.
We’re looking at an ethical problem that, horrifically, extends far beyond 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
gypsy howell
Now there’s something we can all be proud of. It only passed by one vote.
Tom Hilton
Like hell it’s a ‘setback’. I mean, sure it would be a setback if it weren’t vetoed, or if the veto were overridden, and if the administration didn’t just ignore it anyway. But we know that the first if isn’t going to happen, the second is extremely unlikely, and the third is highly improbable. So, ‘setback’–not so much.
Punchy
Likely? I just spit pop on my keyboard. Yeah, and I’d likely nail Jess Alba if she asked me. It’s entirely likely.
Snarkilicious
Well, if a bill banning torture is going to get vetoed, then clearly we need a bill that requires torture, at least in some circumstances.
Not of foreign detainees and POWs, however, that would violate the Geneva Conventions.
But how about setting a manditory punishment for US officials that are guilty of serious war crimes, that they be tortured to death over a period not less than 6 months.
Yes, it may be cruel. But sadly, in 2007 it’s anything but “unusual”.
ImJohnGalt
Why are you against the Invisible Hand? Legislation such as this is the sort of the thing that fosters the type of innovation that America has been, of late, outsourcing to Asia. This could be just the kick in the ass that our torture industry needs to overtake the DPRK.
Ian Thorpe
In principe this debate is a fine thing but let’s be honest, when the security services operate outside their own or allied nations, without supervision, they are going to do what the hell they please.
Redhand
Do you think that Bushco would appreciate the irony of his vetoing legislation outlawing torture? Think of it! What is this country coming to that such a scenario is even conceivable, much less mentioned as a probability?
Of course, nothing surprises me about this lawless idiot nowadays. His obvious public lying about when he knew the conclusions of the new NIE is just a case at point. I saw the video of Dana Perino, his press flack, reduced to saying “the president was truthful” as the only cover for the screaming contradictions in Administration’s own statements about what he knew, and when.
Ths presidency is a JOKE.
Svensker
Sorta OT, but sorta not, emptywheel at FDL has a post up re Sen. Whitehouse’s speech today where he reveals declassified OLC determinations of the President’s “powers” — which are, surprise, surprise, total.
Link is here
Cindrella Ferret
Jonah should feel much better about his Brave Foray into
TerroristLiberal Country. What with all those dangerous meanies up in Taxachusetts and all!Be strong Jonah–the Former Cheerleader’s got your back, bro.
Punchy
Time for a VERY simple question:
How does one veto a bill outlawing torture without thus quite implicitly saying “we like to torture”??
Ninerdave
I am pro skullfucking kittens
Cyrus
Veto? People seriously expect it to get to Bush? My money’s on a procedural filibuster.
Dreggas
Wait a second, when the hell did determinations of the presidents powers need to be classified and the OLC have the ability to classify them? They’re spelled out in the fucking Constitution!
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
LeftyLogic, Part 37:
Waterboarding captured terrorists to prevent further attacks = horrible crime against humanity
Death to Republicans because you don’t agree with them = sweet, wet-dream justice
Nuance. Smart. Tough. Insane. Childish.
cleek
nope. you see there’s this other document that explains that the President is actually King and Congressmen merely courtiers. it’s passed down from president to president in a secret ceremony. the power is only to be used in emergencies, but according to the tenets of Republicanism, everything that threatens the GOP is an emergency.
b.t.w, in that new Nick Cage movie, National Treasure, he actually finds the document.
Dreggas
EEELGibberish, Part LOSTCOUNT: I’m a blithering idiot, oh and I drool on myself.
Dreggas
Not surprising, after all the movie was made by Disney…
Svensker
Golly! Are you like totally pre-9/11 or what? The Constitution is NOT an Islamofascist suicide bomb pact, ya know.
Tsulagi
No real props to the Democrats on this one. Yeah, we have been down this road before. So have they, and they know what’s down this road too and they’re not addressing it.
Before MCA, remember McCain’s Detainee Treatment Act anti-torture amendment? Over Bush’s veto threat, it passed the Senate by a vote of 90 to 9. Similar veto-proof numbers in the House. But Mr. Maverick, in conference going ass up for the administration helped gut his own legislation. It would now only apply to DoD, not civilian intelligence agencies like CIA. Military interrogations would be bound by the Army Field Manual.
Still, not nearly good enough for Decider Man’s decider. A good article in the Concord Monitor reported…
He signed that one. Ahhhh, what would a democracy be without signing statements? Iraqis, take note for future reference. Signing statements are democracy enhancers.
But wait, still not good enough! A good post in the Belgravia Dispatch notes the signing statement, plus what happened next. Even though you got McCain to gut his legislation, and you have that signing statement Republicans won’t stand up to, go for total and humiliating victory over the evildoer Congress that dared question the administration.
Military interrogation constrained by the Army Field Manual? No problem for a Cheney/Rumsfeld Pentagon, simply rewrite the damn manual. Problem solved. They got honor and integrity like that.
So yeah, let’s do the kabuki all over again this time under Democratic leadership in Congress.
Tsulagi
Oops, forgot the Belgravia Dispatch link for my comment above.
RSA
EEEL logic: Being found guilty of serious war crimes = Being Republican (i.e., not agreeing with liberals)
I think. It’s hard to see a different interpretation. What does that say about wingnut political assumptions?
Rick Taylor
The Republican party has been the torture party and the American country the torture country ever since 2004.
Cyrus
EEEL, do you really think that everyone guilty of serious war crimes are Republicans? Clearly, you must hate America.
But I see RSA beat me to it. Oh well.
Philip the Equal Opportunity Cynic
Ths presidency is a JOKE.
Yeah, but at least we elected a good ol’ boy from Texas (ha!), a real salt of the earth type who works an honest day for an honest living out on the ranch, rather than some effete egghead intellectual rich pussy from Massachusetts.
People dumb enough to fall for Rove’s tricks deserve what they get. I was dumb enough to fall for it in 2000 (well, not really, I voted Libertarian, but I wasn’t unhappy with the outcome) and I deserve it, a little.
12across
Who the fuck cares what happens to terrorists. They want to destroy this country and everything good and decent we stand for. They torture our citizens, we should give it back to them ten fold.
I’ll never understand why liberals get all whiney about some terrorists supposed rights. Civil rights are meaningless when you’re dead and dead is exactly what we’ll be if we don’t get them to talk.
binzinerator
Likely? If you had a room full of Jess Albas randomly uttering words for an eternity, then one of them just might end up saying “Please fuck me”.
And it would be almost as likely as you blinking out of this universe through a random wormhole opening underneath you and blinking into a universe of Jessica Albas whose only language consists of three words: “Please fuck me”.
In other words, highly unlikely.
I feel sorry for you. Emma Thompson’s gonna call me way before you hear squat from Alba.
Anne Laurie
“Hypocrisy is the tribute Vice pays to Virtue.”
Whatever happened to the regime Voltaire was talking about, anyways?
Svensker
.
Well, with George Bush and the Torturers, seems like the “terrorists'” dreams have come true. Y’all HAVE destroyed everything good and decent we once stood for. Thanks bunches!
bago
Doesn’t Satan eternally torment souls?
Does eternal torment count as torture?
Did Bill O’Reilly call kos Satan?
Was John way ahead of the curve on the Great Orange Satan?
The answer to all of the above is “yes”.
GeoX
To paraphrase Stephen Colbert, that should play well in New Hampshire, where the state motto is “live free or do whatever it takes to make sure I don’t die.”
Equal Opportunity Cynic
@GeoX:
I believe the NH state motto is based on the immortal words of Patrick Henry — “Give me liberty, or…. or…. at least keep me safe, King!”
Phoenician in a time of Romans
How does one veto a bill outlawing torture without thus quite implicitly saying “we like to torture”??
“Security”, my little bitch, “security”.