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You are here: Home / z-Retired Categories / Previous Site Maintenance / Open Democratic Debate Thread

Open Democratic Debate Thread

by Michael D.|  December 14, 20075:28 am| 45 Comments

This post is in: Previous Site Maintenance

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I missed it because I completely forgot about it. I liked that the Dems defended Joe Biden against people who call him racist. If you call him anything, call him somone who engages his mouth before his brain. Doesn’t make him a racist. I’ve always liked Joe, warts and all. Besides that, what happened?

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45Comments

  1. 1.

    Wilfred

    December 14, 2007 at 6:28 am

    But he is a racist. It’s just that his racism is the last socially acceptable racism – the one against Palestinians.

    He has said repeatedly: “I am a Zionist”. The practical effects of Zionism have been the expulsion of Palestinians from their own land and second-class status for Arab-Israelis, along with separate roads for Jews and Palestinians, ghettoizing of Palestinians and other apartheid inspired actions whose collective effect is to elevate the interests one group at the expense of another. That’s racism.

    Indians are good wogs, Palestinians are the wretched of the earth and Biden is a racist scumbag.

  2. 2.

    myiq2xu

    December 14, 2007 at 6:34 am

    Isn’t it funny how the people most likely to spot alleged racism in a Democrat are white GOP members who have always been hostile to anything intended to help minorites.

    I doubt that Joe Biden is a racist. But he, like many whites (including myself) may occasionally find that deep within outselves there are still traces of the racism that was prevelant in our culture for so many centuries.

    We cut down the tree, but the roots run deep.

  3. 3.

    W.Thomas Smith Jr

    December 14, 2007 at 6:37 am

    Didn’t he get hair transplants? Hey, I wasn’t paying attention either.

  4. 4.

    Michael D.

    December 14, 2007 at 6:39 am

    But he, like many whites (including myself) may occasionally find that deep within outselves there are still traces of the racism

    Speak for yourself. I don’t have a racist bone in my body.

  5. 5.

    myiq2xu

    December 14, 2007 at 6:53 am

    Speak for yourself. I don’t have a racist bone in my body.

    Congratulations!

    I stand in awe. Perhaps someday I can achieve complete enlightenment like you.

  6. 6.

    Psycheout

    December 14, 2007 at 6:53 am

    Michelle Malkin has the full rundown, Mike. Play by play and actually quite objective.

  7. 7.

    W.Thomas Smith Jr

    December 14, 2007 at 6:54 am

    Speak for yourself. I don’t have a racist bone in my body.

    Jeez man, stop with the straight lines already.

  8. 8.

    Michael D.

    December 14, 2007 at 6:55 am

    Perhaps someday I can achieve complete enlightenment like you.

    I hope you do. It’s not enlightenment, however; it’s human decency. My best friend is my African American tenant.

  9. 9.

    myiq2xu

    December 14, 2007 at 7:01 am

    My best friend is my African American tenant.

    “Some of my best friends are . . .”

    Having a best friend that is African American doesn’t make you free from all traces of racism.

  10. 10.

    Psycheout

    December 14, 2007 at 7:06 am

    Don’t even bother, Michael. Liberals just love being race pimps. You are being race baited. Don’t let these bullies paint you into a corner.

    I’m sure that you have a fine black friend who you respect as a person, and not for the color of his skin and all the suffering he has undergone at the hands of whitey.

    I don’t know why these guys start with the assumption of racism. It’s like they believe in their hearts that white people are essential evil at their core. Thinking people do not. That’s just a fact.

  11. 11.

    Michael D.

    December 14, 2007 at 7:07 am

    Having a best friend that is African American doesn’t make you free from all traces of racism

    That’s true. But there still is no trace of racism here baby!

  12. 12.

    W.Thomas Smith Jr

    December 14, 2007 at 7:29 am

    Having a best friend that is African American doesn’t make you free from all traces of racism.

    Yes, but having a best friend who is an african american tenant makes you a landlord. Go ahead, see if you can argue your way out of that one, whitey.

  13. 13.

    myiq2xu

    December 14, 2007 at 7:31 am

    It’s like they believe in their hearts that white people are essential evil at their core.

    White people are not inherently evil, any more (or less) than any other racial group. Racists are inherently stupid, and many are evil.

    Not all stupid people are conservatives, but all conservatives are . . . well, you know.

  14. 14.

    MBL

    December 14, 2007 at 7:55 am

    My best friend is my African American tenant.

    Nicely played, sir. You had me for a few minutes there.

  15. 15.

    jake

    December 14, 2007 at 8:13 am

    My best friend is my African American tenant.

    Word of advice: “My best friend is [whatever]!” is the reflexive battle-cry of clueless bigots everywhere. Don’t say it.

    Also, how many tenants do you have? I hope you aren’t playing favorites.

  16. 16.

    TheFountainHead

    December 14, 2007 at 8:43 am

    OT: I thought the debate was actually a great deal better than any of the idiotic CNN debates. CNN had an opportunity to do something very cool with YouTube, and in my opinion, CNN blew it completely. I thought the candidates didn’t air out much of their policy issues in this debate, but it was much easier to get a sense of their personality. I also thoroughly enjoyed Obama’s clever shutdown on Hillary’s cackling at him. Overall, I think Edwards and Obama did very well, Biden, Richardson, and Dodd kept up their even keel, and Hillary, in a unique position to hurt herself, only did so a little bit.

  17. 17.

    Michael D.

    December 14, 2007 at 8:46 am

    I have one tenant. And I refuse to get into this stupid conversation any more than I already have. :-) Except to say:

    I’m white, so I am obviously a racist. God forbid there’s actually one of us out there who doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the color of someone’s skin. Most of my best friends are gay too!

    Maybe it’s the fact that I am Canadian and never really had to deal with all the racist shit you guys have had to deal with.

    Whatever.

  18. 18.

    Timmy Mac

    December 14, 2007 at 8:57 am

    I don’t know who’s a racist and who’s not, but I was sure impressed with that black fella.

    (A joke! Just a joke!)

    Seriously…I really gained a better appreciation of all the candidates, but John Edwards really just stood out to me. I will happily vote for that guy.

  19. 19.

    4tehlulz

    December 14, 2007 at 8:57 am

    Maybe it’s the fact that I am Canadian and never really had to deal with all the racist shit you guys have had to deal with.

    I doubt that the indigenous people of Canada agree with your assessment.

  20. 20.

    Sasha

    December 14, 2007 at 9:41 am

    Obama got in a great zinger on Hillary.

  21. 21.

    Eural

    December 14, 2007 at 9:58 am

    Can I point out that racism is not a white only issue? I tend to agree with the idea that most people – regardless or race, color or creed – tend to be racist to one degree or another. But it’s human nature. And by human I mean everyone. My wife (white) experienced some of the worst racism I have ever encountered at the hands of black women. History is filled with the violence perpetrated by various races against various races on this planet and a lot of it has got nothing to do with whites.

    In fact, a blanket statement such as “all racism is caused by white people” seems to be, ironically, racist itself.

    Just my 2 cents :)

  22. 22.

    Zifnab

    December 14, 2007 at 10:28 am

    I’m white, so I am obviously a racist. God forbid there’s actually one of us out there who doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the color of someone’s skin. Most of my best friends are gay too!

    Maybe it’s the fact that I am Canadian and never really had to deal with all the racist shit you guys have had to deal with.

    Hey, there’s something to that. I’ll attest to the difficulty of not thinking racist when growing up in a rich white suburb that actively gives black people all sorts of shit. At a certain point, I get the feeling its just in the water or something. You don’t know why you have a visceral internal distrust or disgust and you hate yourself for it. But its there.

    Consider yourself a lucky Canadian, Mike. Down in Texas, not being racist is somewhat tougher than it looks.

  23. 23.

    A different Matt

    December 14, 2007 at 10:42 am

    I like that FountainHead felt compelled to qualify his/her thoughts about the debate as “OT” in a thread about the debate… I guess race issues derail everything, especially democratic politics.

  24. 24.

    Ed Drone

    December 14, 2007 at 10:51 am

    The question of whether Zionism is racism is an odd thing, to me, since both Israelis* and Palestinians are of the same stock, Semites, and their difference is religion, not race. Add to that a (un-)healthy bit of nationalism, mix with global politics (the US v. Communist influence, ‘back in the day’) and you have a festering boil called the Middle East.

    And under the boil is the oil.

    So when Biden says he’s a Zionist, he means he sides with the nation of Israel, against the displaced Palestinians (we should really revert to their original name, “Philistines,” you know — it’s easier to spell, for one thing). That is certainly unfortunate, in many ways, but it isn’t ‘racist’ as such.

    Ed

    * not the European Jewish emigrants, of course — they’re not Semites, just Jews.

  25. 25.

    Andrew

    December 14, 2007 at 11:03 am

    Did Michael just say he owns a black person?

  26. 26.

    Krista

    December 14, 2007 at 11:24 am

    Maybe it’s the fact that I am Canadian and never really had to deal with all the racist shit you guys have had to deal with.

    I don’t doubt that one’s external environment does affect their social viewpoints. I don’t know if it’s a Canadian thing, or if it’s that you didn’t grow up in a large city though, Michael. I do suspect that the large-city tendency of ethnic groups to cluster together actually makes racism worse.

    Growing up in a town of 15,000, there was still a pretty decent representation of various ethnicities. However, everybody was scattered all over the community — there was no real clustering going on and everybody was just another member of the community. My best friend in elementary school was of Indian descent. My best friend in high school had a Chinese boyfriend. The most popular guy in my high school was African-Canadian. Race just never entered the picture. They didn’t supress their own culture though — they were very proud of their culture and enjoyed sharing their traditions with their friends, and as far as I’m aware, they never experienced any racism in the community.

    But when I moved to Halifax, where there was a lot of clustering going on, I saw a lot more racism. Correlation or causation, I don’t know. But I think that one of the major keys to eliminating racism is for everybody to get to know, from a very young age, other people from other cultures. We fear what we don’t know. And we’re a lot less likely to get to know people from other cultures if they self-segregate.

  27. 27.

    Wilfred

    December 14, 2007 at 11:37 am

    That is certainly unfortunate, in many ways, but it isn’t ‘racist’ as such.

    No, it’s racist. The central political tenet of Zionism is that Israel must be a Jewish state. That means the incorporation of the Occupied Territories into greater Israel can never happen because such a state would be predominantly non-Jewish. Similarly, an Arab majority within the current borders of Israel is also not permitted, i.e. the aliyah granted to Jews does not apply to displaced Arabs for the mere fact of being Arab; the law does not discriminate between Muslim and Christian Arabs. That’s racism. Period.

    If you support a racist policy, you’re a racist, cf. South African apartheid

  28. 28.

    Andrew

    December 14, 2007 at 11:43 am

    That’s racism. Period.

    I’m pretty sure it’s religious-ism or whatever, because Jews of all races are allowed in. Ethiopian, Russian, Chinese, Persian, Arab, etc. Jews have all been granted citizenship in Israel.

    Seems sort of silly to conflate religious discrimination with racism, when they’re obviously not the same thing.

  29. 29.

    Wilfred

    December 14, 2007 at 11:50 am

    Seems sort of silly to conflate religious discrimination with racism, when they’re obviously not the same thing.

    Ah, I see. So Arabs are discriminated against not because they’re Arabs but because they’re not Jews, which makes Zionism religious bigotry but not racism.

    Ok, so if Christian Americans pushed for a Christian only America, would that be ok? Would it be a case of ‘unfortunate, but not racism’?

  30. 30.

    Andrew

    December 14, 2007 at 11:59 am

    Ah, I see. So Arabs are discriminated against not because they’re Arabs but because they’re not Jews, which makes Zionism religious bigotry but not racism.

    Um, yes? That’s pretty much exactly it.

    Arab Jews, in.
    Arab everything else, not in.

    Not racism, but religious discrimination.

    Why is this so hard for people to understand? There are plenty of reasonable criticisms to be made, but framing this as racism is ridiculous.

    Ok, so if Christian Americans pushed for a Christian only America, would that be ok? Would it be a case of ‘unfortunate, but not racism’?

    No, that wouldn’t be okay, because our Constitution defines a non-religious government with minority protections. But it would definitely not be racism, unless you’re going to claim that black, asian, hispanic, and white Christians are all the same race. Ridiculous, indeed.

  31. 31.

    Michael D.

    December 14, 2007 at 12:31 pm

    Actually, to claim that asian, white, black, hispanic, etc are of different races at all is what’s “Ridiculous, indeed.”

    There is only one race – human. Anyone who’s taken a basic anthropology or biology class should know that.

  32. 32.

    Wilfred

    December 14, 2007 at 12:36 pm

    Not racism, but religious discrimination.

    So it’s ok for a sitting U.S. Senator to support religious discrimination?

  33. 33.

    Andrew

    December 14, 2007 at 1:22 pm

    Actually, to claim that asian, white, black, hispanic, etc are of different races at all is what’s “Ridiculous, indeed.”

    There is only one race – human. Anyone who’s taken a basic anthropology or biology class should know that.

    LOL! Look at the secular humanist!

  34. 34.

    Kynn

    December 14, 2007 at 1:54 pm

    Speak for yourself. I don’t have a racist bone in my body.

    This is so totally going to come back and bite you in the ass.

    There is only one race – human. Anyone who’s taken a basic anthropology or biology class should know that.

    Typical Republican-speak; I know the next line, too — you’re going to tell us how people of color shouldn’t have any sort of “special privileges” over white people, and you’re going to use that to justify opposing anti-racism measures.

  35. 35.

    Gilmore

    December 14, 2007 at 2:34 pm

    So it’s ok for a sitting U.S. Senator to support religious discrimination?

    No you idiot, you were arguing that it was RACISM. Everything you dislike isn’t RACISM. If I eat a pickle and peanut butter sandwich, that isn’t RACISM, it’s just disgusting. Words mean stuff. Play by the rules or keep your fool mouth shut.

  36. 36.

    Wilfred

    December 14, 2007 at 3:17 pm

    Blow me. It’s called the Socratic Method and here exposed the idiotic concept that “Oh, bless me, Biden really isn’t a racist but only a bigot”, just as it was intended to.

    Open you mouth when you have an idea of what you’re talking about, asshole.

  37. 37.

    Andrew

    December 14, 2007 at 3:29 pm

    If I eat a pickle and peanut butter sandwich, that isn’t RACISM, it’s just disgusting.

    Mmmmmm, disgusting… drool.

    Oh, and Wilfred, it’s quite clear your main agenda on BJ is to bring up Israel and tell us that everyone is racist against Palestinians, and you’ve done it many, many times. Socratic method my bright, shiny ass.

  38. 38.

    Gilmore

    December 14, 2007 at 3:54 pm

    Open you mouth when you have an idea of what you’re talking about, asshole.

    Oh so now you’re gonna be RACIST against me? Why do you hate black people so much, RACIST?

  39. 39.

    Wilfred

    December 14, 2007 at 4:07 pm

    it’s quite clear your main agenda on BJ is to bring up Israel and tell us that everyone is racist against Palestinians

    Almost. The only item on my agenda is to point out the hypocrisy of smarmy, mealy-mouthed pricks like yourself and nearly everyone else on this site who routinely get the vapors for things that Bushco does against Arab/Muslims but bury their heads up their asses when someone points out that paw widdle Iswael does far worse, every day. This way they can feel good about being Democrats and not those awful Republicans.

    There are only two Western countries currently occupying the land and oppressing the lives of subject people. Can you guess which two?

    Racist, bigot, imperialist scumbag – if the shoe fits, shove up it your hypocritical ass.

  40. 40.

    Michael D.

    December 14, 2007 at 4:10 pm

    Kynn:

    This is so totally going to come back and bite you in the ass.

    How?

    Typical Republican-speak; I know the next line, too—you’re going to tell us how people of color shouldn’t have any sort of “special privileges” over white people, and you’re going to use that to justify opposing anti-racism measures.

    I didn’t say there was not discrimination against black people, or hispanics, or that programs put in place to help even the playing field was a bad thing. That you attempt to paint me with that brush makes you a fucking asshhole.

    Ask any scientist. RACE IS NOT SOMETHING YOU CAN USE TO CLASSIFY HUMANS INTO SEPARATE GROUPS, you fucking putz. And if people realized we were all cut from the same cloth, and one person is as human as the other, we’d probably not have the problems we have.

    Asshole.

  41. 41.

    Gilmore

    December 14, 2007 at 4:12 pm

    The only item on my agenda is to point out the hypocrisy of smarmy, mealy-mouthed pricks like yourself and nearly everyone else on this site who routinely get the vapors for things that Bushco does against Arab/Muslims but bury their heads up their asses when someone points out that paw widdle Iswael does far worse, every day.

    You stupid douche, I actually AGREE with you about Israel and Palestine. I just don’t think people should argue dishonestly, because it makes you look like a fucking douchebag idiot. Go wave your papier-mache bobblehead mumia doll somewhere else.

  42. 42.

    George B.

    December 14, 2007 at 4:18 pm

    There are only two Western countries currently occupying the land and oppressing the lives of subject people. Can you guess which two?

    Spain and France. If you’re Basque, Breton, or Corsican, you’ve GOTTA hate those pricks. (Britain, if you’re Irish, Scottish, or Welsh. Canada, if you’re Quebecois. Russia, if you’re Chechen/Ossetian. Romania, if you’re Hungarian.)

    Of course, China, India, Indonesia and Japan aren’t exactly blameless, either. Nor is Iran, Turkey, or Syria, if you’re Kurdish.

  43. 43.

    Andrew

    December 14, 2007 at 5:10 pm

    George B, why are you racist against the Basque, Bretons, Corsicans, Quebecois, Irish, Scots, Welsh, Chechens, and Romanians?

    Racist!

    LOL!

  44. 44.

    George B.

    December 14, 2007 at 6:10 pm

    George B, why are you racist against the Basque, Bretons, Corsicans, Quebecois, Irish, Scots, Welsh, Chechens, and Romanians?

    My father was killed by a Basque-Breton-Corsican-Quebecois-Scots-Irish-Welsh-Chechen-Romanian. I’m still trying to get over it.

    Then again, some of my best friends are Tibetan, Kashmiri, Papuan, Ainu, and Kurdish, so I CAN’T be racist!

  45. 45.

    Wilfred

    December 14, 2007 at 6:55 pm

    I actually AGREE with you about Israel and Palestine. I just don’t think people should argue dishonestly

    Go fuck yourself you lying sack of shit. If what you said here was true you’d have been all over Biden’s ass, instead you got hung up on a word. Argue dishonestly?!? yesterday I posted a link of the International Red Cross warning of yet another humanitarian crisis brought on by zionist scumbaggery – I must have missed your stirring support.

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