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Balloon Juice

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

Republicans don’t lie to be believed, they lie to be repeated.

The lights are all blinking red.

They love authoritarianism, but only when they get to be the authoritarians.

GOP baffled that ‘we don’t care if you die’ is not a winning slogan.

It is possible to do the right thing without the promise of a cookie.

Fight for a just cause, love your fellow man, live a good life.

rich, arrogant assholes who equate luck with genius

Republicans would impeach Biden if he bit into a whole Kit Kat rather than breaking the sections apart.

Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.

We’ll be taking my thoughts and prayers to the ballot box.

Let’s finish the job.

Glad to see john eastman going through some things.

Many life forms that would benefit from greater intelligence, sadly, do not have it.

Shut up, hissy kitty!

Let us savor the impending downfall of lawless scoundrels who richly deserve the trouble barreling their way.

It’s always darkest before the other shoe drops.

“Why isn’t this Snickers bar only a nickel?”

Another missed opportunity for Jamie Dimon to just shut the fuck up.

A lot of Dems talk about what the media tells them to talk about. Not helpful.

You are so fucked. Still, I wish you the best of luck.

The party of Reagan has become the party of Putin.

Boeing: repeatedly making the case for high speed rail.

There are a lot more evil idiots than evil geniuses.

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You are here: Home / z-Retired Categories / Previous Site Maintenance / Tuesday Open Thread

Tuesday Open Thread

by John Cole|  December 18, 200710:57 am| 351 Comments

This post is in: Previous Site Maintenance, Democratic Stupidity, General Stupidity

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Unmotivated.

PS- I wonder if, in the Muslim world, they have turned “elementary school” into a boogeyman the way we have turned madrassa into a scary thing? For example, if someone in the new free and wonderfully democratic Iraq was running for offfice, would a whisper campaign start because he/she attended “elementary school?” Boo!

*** Update ***

On second thought, given Jonah Goldberg’s revelations about who the real fascists are, maybe they do actually whisper that sort of thing about elementary schools.

*** Update #2 ***

The blogger formally known as the Commissar is right, more people should be explicitly stating precisely what the Clinton camp and their surrogates are doing here. It is bullshit what is being done to Obama.

For the record, I, for the life of me, do not really know what Obama’s positions are on anything. My favorite candidate was Chris Dodd, =but he has less chance of winning than the Dolphins do of winning the Super Bowl. I am instinctively repulsed by Clinton, and the populist BS from Edwards doesn’t really motivate me (although at a core level, I agree with Edwards- the system needs to be destroyed. I just don’t think he is the one to do it.), but I can say this- the fact that people are directing all sorts of bullshit and petty smears at Obama is pushing me towards him, even if I can not explain why or what he really believes in.

Maybe ‘I am not a total lying scumbag’ is enough this year to win the Democratic nod. Given the Republican candidates, it should be more than enough in the general election.

*** Update #3 ***

I love comments like this:

You said…
“I am instinctively repulsed by Clinton”

You know why…because she is a strong woman and you are a weak man. See the word “instinctively” gives you away. Can you articulate why you are repulsed?

For the very reason you now feel a need to vote for Obama (smear tactics) is the very reason I “instinctively” need to vote for Clinton.

Or, rather than it having anything to do with her being female, it could have a lot to do with my instinctive revulsion at her pandering, lying, manipulative, triangulating, condescending self. I really don’t care if she has a Clenis or a Clagina, to be honest, and you can keep these games elsewhere (am I supposed to list all the “strong women” I know and respect and would vote for, or should I say nothing and have your smear of sexism hold? I haven’t played this game in a while and am not up on the rules.)

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351Comments

  1. 1.

    Dreggas

    December 18, 2007 at 10:59 am

    The new excuse for the republican platform not including a plank to fight poverty:

    When asked whether the Republican platform also goes against Christian doctrine on issues like poverty, Morris replied somewhat cryptically, “There’s always a hierarchy of value. When there’s no life that’s permitted, poverty is not an issue.” Morris may have been trying to say that aborted fetuses don’t get the chance to be poor, so poverty doesn’t have to be addressed until after the abortion issue is resolved.

    more here

    It all makes sense now. If we just save the fetus’ the republicans will fight for those who, you know, actually are alive!

  2. 2.

    RSA

    December 18, 2007 at 11:03 am

    I wonder if, in the Muslim world, they have turned “elementary school” into a boogeyman the way we have turned madrassa into a scary thing?

    I think “He was homeschooled” is a more likely candidate.

  3. 3.

    Zifnab

    December 18, 2007 at 11:03 am

    It all makes sense now. If we just save the fetus’ the republicans will fight for those who, you know, actually are alive!

    Whoa, whoa. Don’t get ahead of yourself. It’s fetuses first, then oil companies, and then we get to work on the poor people. Says so, right there in Leviticus 9:23-Q+1

    See, its ignorance like this that makes me think we need to start teaching Bible Study in schools.

  4. 4.

    Dreggas

    December 18, 2007 at 11:04 am

    Bill Donohue proves he’s just In it for the money

    Let’s face it folks, this good christian warrior for christmas should be LOVING the Huckabee christmas ad and here he is saying it goes too far because of a subliminal cross in it. HUCKABEE SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED THAT CHRISTMAS IS THE CELEBRATION OF THE BIRTH OF CHRIST AND THAT DIDN’T GO TOO FAR?

    Donohue jumped the shark on this one. He may as well just pack it up for the season.

  5. 5.

    srv

    December 18, 2007 at 11:06 am

    Status maps of ethnic cleansing in Babylon

    h/t UO

  6. 6.

    bob

    December 18, 2007 at 11:09 am

    I used to wear Madras shirts. Does that make me a terrorist?

  7. 7.

    jrg

    December 18, 2007 at 11:10 am

    would a whisper campaign start because he/she attended “elementary school?”

    That depends on if the elementary school is the starting point for “indoctrination” into near-universally accepted scientific theories.

  8. 8.

    TheFountainHead

    December 18, 2007 at 11:12 am

    Wait, what?

  9. 9.

    Xanthippas

    December 18, 2007 at 11:18 am

    I wonder if, in the Muslim world, they have turned “elementary school” into a boogeyman the way we have turned madrassa into a scary thing?

    Nah, all of our religious wackos are home-schooled now.

  10. 10.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 11:21 am

    Nah, all of our religious wackos are home-schooled now.

    Talk about the blind leading the blind.

  11. 11.

    RSA

    December 18, 2007 at 11:23 am

    I used to wear Madras shirts. Does that make me a terrorist?

    Not at all. Madras pants, on the other hand. . .

  12. 12.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 11:25 am

    That Goldberg book is really priceless, isn’t it? When I try to picture the future of the Republican party, all I can think about now is a bunch of crazy muttering to themselves tinfoil hat hermit types, an irrelevant vestige of an ugly time in our history. I mean, they just refuse to be reasonable about anything. Am I wrong here? I would love to debate this with someone intelligent, I would love for someone I respect to actually tell me this is going to remain a viable political party, but for the life of me I cannot figure out how.

  13. 13.

    merciless

    December 18, 2007 at 11:26 am

    Dreggas, Donohue doesn’t want to endorse Huck (nor do a lot of the big-money evangelicals) because they figure he’s going to be stiff competition when he loses his bid for the presidency.

    That big fat mailing list is gold. That’s how Pat Robertson got so important and rich, he used his mailing list from his presidential bid.

    Nothing personal. Just business.

  14. 14.

    Billy K

    December 18, 2007 at 11:33 am

    Public School is the real threat. They don’t learn to read, write or rithmatic; and the history they teach has a liberal bias. They only thing they really learn is how to Hate America™©.

  15. 15.

    jcricket

    December 18, 2007 at 11:39 am

    I would love to debate this with someone intelligent, I would love for someone I respect to actually tell me this is going to remain a viable political party, but for the life of me I cannot figure out how.

    The Republican party is at a crossroads. I see three futures:

    1) They can turn into a really southern party, embracing the right-wing evangelical, xenophobic, racist, isolationist, pretty-much-whites-only vote. They might get the hard-core anti-taxers and “no government” types too.

    2) They can let bitter internecine struggles tear the party apart and end up like the Reform party. Moderates, independents and pragmatic fiscal conservatives will vote Democrat, lots of others may just stay home, or vote for irrelevant third/fourth parties.

    3) Take back the asylum from the lunatics. While the Republican party of “small government, stay out of social issues” never really existed, there was a viable party 20 years ago and I’m sure many of the moderates and independents would easily be lured back by a low-tax, less social issue focus.

    Honestly, right now it looks like #1 is the most likely, because the embrace of the crazies is in full-on bear-hug mode right now. Rather than tolerating that whack-jobs, they’re sprinting (pandering) towards them as fast as they can. Look at the presidential candidates and how hard they try to pander to the jesus-freaks, torture-lovers, all-war-having, no-taxers this time around. These aren’t candidates for school board in Kansas, but politicians supposed to appeal across the nation. That Republicans think this is a winning strategy is nuts, but whtaever.

    #1 is still a “viable party” in the sense that they could take over many places in the south (at least the rural ones). It’s never going to have national relevance, and any place with a growing population center in the urban or suburban areas would quickly find itself with Democratic super-majorities.

  16. 16.

    TheFountainHead

    December 18, 2007 at 11:47 am

    If I had a dollar for every time I or someone I have met has said, “I know nothing about Obama, but I have a gut reaction against Hillary.” I think I could run for President myself. That seems to be the defining sentiment of the election thus far. The question is, will they edumacate themselves about Obama or just ignore their gut?

  17. 17.

    TenguPhule

    December 18, 2007 at 11:49 am

    Brought to you by the stupidest fucking people on Earth

    So much for keeping the Kurds on our side….

  18. 18.

    cleek

    December 18, 2007 at 11:53 am

    about this “death of the GOP” meme…

    it would be wise to remember that for a while, back in the days before the surprising 2006 election, when Dems had just 44 Senate seats and barely 200 House seats, pundits everywhere were talking about the death of the Democratic party. they were all wrong, but it was a surprise to learn that they were wrong.

  19. 19.

    The Other Steve

    December 18, 2007 at 11:56 am

    and the populist BS from Edwards doesn’t really motivate me (although at a core level, I agree with Edwards- the system needs to be destroyed. I just don’t think he is the one to do it.),

    I don’t think you really have to worry about that. That rhetoric is just Edwards way of winning the nomination.

    If he were elected President, he’d have a totally different tune.

  20. 20.

    jcricket

    December 18, 2007 at 12:00 pm

    Ah young conservatives, such an unfairly persecuted bunch of upstanding future Republicans.

    Besides the general mocking and derision young Republicans get, due to the fact that their ideas have “lost” in the free market they claim to adore, has there ever been an actual case when conservatives are persecuted like they claim?

    Or is it always like Bill O’Reilly’s faux war-on-christmas. Just a ratings stunt and projection.

  21. 21.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 12:00 pm

    After yesterday’s flap, I’m going to have to reluctantly pull back from supporting Clinton. Once is a mistake, twice is bad management, and three times is race baiting by the campaign.

    Sorry, Hillary. I can’t support that. I can’t support Obama’s homophobia, either, though, so I’m at a bit of a loss about what to do here…

  22. 22.

    Zifnab

    December 18, 2007 at 12:03 pm

    If I had a dollar for every time I or someone I have met has said, “I know nothing about Obama, but I have a gut reaction against Hillary.” I think I could run for President myself. That seems to be the defining sentiment of the election thus far. The question is, will they edumacate themselves about Obama or just ignore their gut?

    “Is the devil you don’t know better than the devil you do?” becomes the question of the day. That said, legislatively Obama has shown a willingness to not dig in his heels on the important stuff even if he’s not willing to take the reigns and lead. I’d have loved to see the Junior Senator from Illinois leading the filibuster against telecomm amnesty with Chris Dodd playing coach and backup. But I’ll settle for his verbal support of the filibuster and verbal protest to Reid against the Intelligence Bill.

    Assuming we can get a True Blue faction in the Democratic Caucus going, I see Hillary as the type of President who would try to bust it up. I see Obama as the type of President who would let the legislation do its job.

  23. 23.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 12:05 pm

    Hi Cleek in Cary!

    Believe me, I’m not trying to engage in a “death of the GOP” meme or any other kind of meme. I’m not a memer. I’m genuinely confused. They seem to me to be getting increasingly nasty, increasingly divisive, increasingly on the minority side of the fence. They are already not with ordinary Americans on so many things, and as the population changes I just think that’s going to intensify. All the anti-gay stuff — the attitudes just change dramatically as you get younger, just for one example.

    I instinctively know the Democrats are going to blow it and I am naturally inclined towards pessimism in that regard. I know these elections are ours to lose, etc. I just honestly can’t figure out what the GOP’s game is. It seems to me to be closest to jcricket’s #1, I just can’t figure out how that’s viable. You can’t win an election only taking the South.

    I guess overriding all this, and I’m aware that the plural of anecdote is not data, is just the sheer number of people I have met who are turned off by the ugliness, the total lack of empathy, of the modern Republicans. I criticize them for a lot of things, the inability to engage in empirical thinking chief among them, but I think for regular people they seem increasingly unsympathetic, shrill, and nasty. And that appears to be a direction they are happy to chart for themselves. So, okay, sorry for the long post.

  24. 24.

    Nicole

    December 18, 2007 at 12:16 pm

    After the FISA standoff yesterday I’m now in Dodd’s camp. I know, I know, chance of winning, Miami Dolphins and all that, but in the end I have to support the candidate I like, not the one I think will win. He done good yesterday.

  25. 25.

    jcricket

    December 18, 2007 at 12:17 pm

    Sorry, Hillary. I can’t support that. I can’t support Obama’s homophobia, either, though, so I’m at a bit of a loss about what to do here…

    Vote for Edwards?

    I personally don’t think it will really end up mattering, as long as we have a “D” next to the occupant of the WH and control of the Senate and House. Of all the current crop, I think Edwards “gets it” the most with his “two Americas” theme. And I have concerns that Obama can’t win.

    I’m sorry, but year-after-year, poll-after-poll, people claim they will vote for the black guy, but then it ends up being 5-10% less that actually do.

    I might be wrong, and that might be too cynical, but that’s one of the things that turns me away from Obama. Don’t get me wrong, if he’s the nominee, I’ll vote for him happily, but I don’t think we should pretend the era of race being a “negative” in American politics is over.

  26. 26.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 12:17 pm

    actually tell me this is going to remain a viable political party, but for the life of me I cannot figure out how.

    This is actually a pretty easy answer. As we’ve recently seen, when one party has all the power they tend to screw it up and go to far, creating public backlash for the opposition. The Democrats are no different from the Republicans in that regard, in that they are power-hungry, and “no better” than their constituents on what’s right, etc.

    Eventually, as all the pet liberal projects get tried out, and fail while stomping on individual rights for the “greater good”, the Republican power base will come back as it returns to Republican values (and farther away from the social conservative set).

  27. 27.

    The Other Steve

    December 18, 2007 at 12:17 pm

    Sorry, Hillary. I can’t support that. I can’t support Obama’s homophobia, either, though, so I’m at a bit of a loss about what to do here…

    Oh christ. What’d she do now?

  28. 28.

    jcricket

    December 18, 2007 at 12:19 pm

    they were all wrong, but it was a surprise to learn that they were wrong.

    I wasn’t really surprised, if you looked at the underlying data, the trends were all on the Democratic side.

    You’re probably right that we’re years away from the “death” of the GOP, and there’s plenty of time for events or the party platform to change. Inertia will definitely carry it forward for a time.

    But their embrace of decidedly minority-demographic-supporting positions (anti-immigration, anti-gay, only right-wing evangelicals) can’t be good in the long run.

  29. 29.

    The Other Steve

    December 18, 2007 at 12:19 pm

    Eventually, as all the pet liberal projects get tried out, and fail while stomping on individual rights for the “greater good”, the Republican power base will come back as it returns to Republican values (and farther away from the social conservative set).

    Republican values? You mean stomping on individual rights for the “greater good”, right?

  30. 30.

    Wilfred

    December 18, 2007 at 12:20 pm

    They’re doing to Obama what Smathers did to Claude Pepper. It’s as if someone were to say of Cole that he admitted to being a mudaris. Obama would openly confront Clinton but he’s shooting for vice on her ticket.

  31. 31.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 12:22 pm

    Republican values? You mean stomping on individual rights for the “greater good”, right?

    That’s incorrect. Core Republican values, prior to the hijack and rape by the social conservatives, was all about maintaining an individual’s rights.

  32. 32.

    Andrew

    December 18, 2007 at 12:25 pm

    Eventually, as all the pet liberal projects get tried out, and fail while stomping on individual rights for the “greater good”,

    Yes, cassidy. Those hated liberal programs like social security. What a failure!

  33. 33.

    Wilfred

    December 18, 2007 at 12:29 pm

    Core Republican values, prior to the hijack and rape by the social conservatives, was all about maintaining an individual’s rights.

    More like maintaining the rights, privileges and wealth of a particular social class at the expense of the country. Same as it ever was.

  34. 34.

    Billy K

    December 18, 2007 at 12:31 pm

    The Republican party is at a crossroads. I see three futures:

    1) They can turn into a really southern party, embracing the right-wing evangelical, xenophobic, racist, isolationist, pretty-much-whites-only vote. They might get the hard-core anti-taxers and “no government” types too.
    …
    #1 is still a “viable party” in the sense that they could take over many places in the south (at least the rural ones). It’s never going to have national relevance, and any place with a growing population center in the urban or suburban areas would quickly find itself with Democratic super-majorities.

    One of the reasons the Republican Party has remained strong is all that cash the Econo-cons throw out there. Would they be anywhere without Wingnut Welfare funding the likes of Rush, Hannity and Fox News?

    If the GOP goes full-on fundie, that money will dry up. Maybe not entirely, but a lot of the funding for the propaganda that props them up will dissipate.

  35. 35.

    cleek

    December 18, 2007 at 12:31 pm

    Jen, jcricket – yes i totally agree the GOP is in a bad place right now, and even better, it’s totally by their own hand.

    and i think the Dems will probably win this election (an unusually optimistic feeling, for me), despite the worst efforts of Reid and Pelosi to sour everyone on the party. but the Dems will eventually overreach or fuck up somehow, and the GOP will be there to seize the opportunity – as always.

  36. 36.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 12:35 pm

    No, Cassidy, I specifically said I wanted an intelligent answer. You look me in my virtual eye (green, and stunning) and tell me that if you pulled Joe Blow off the street in Iowa and asked him which were better days for this country, Clinton or Bush, he would tell you Bush? Now go read some polls, and tell me again. Show your work.

    I worry about the Democrats winning, then having to clean up all of Bush’s crap, deficit, debt, Iraq, world hating our guts, on and on, you know the drill, and then paying the price for it if they don’t do it well enough. I mean, there is a crapload of crap (is that a tautology? I think probably so) to clean up and not get any credit for. Your worries about Democratic “overreach” are ridiculous because the Democrats aren’t going to have any damn money to even do the most fundamental things that they stand for, like health care. (And the idea that people will think “OH noes! The Evil Dumocrats got me a doctor!” is just moronic on its face.)

  37. 37.

    STEVEinSC

    December 18, 2007 at 12:35 pm

    Another item to add to the where is the GOP future? It seems to me that with Reagan the GOP threw off the past and embraced two things: (1) deficit spending (supply side, welfare for the rich, militarism) and war (or rumors of war) without end, which, mutatis mutandi, follows from (1). They continue to spout small government, balanced budgets, honesty, but what’s most important is their need for scary bogeymen (see items 1 and 2.) Devisiveness and scapegoats at home. International bullying and aggression abroad.

  38. 38.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 12:38 pm

    Cleek, I understand the concern and the pessimism, but I’m just going to say this as drily as I can:

    I do not, based on current trends and activities and statements and whatnot, think that Democratic overreach is a real concern for us at this particular point in time.

    Growing a pair, yes. Overreach, nosomuch.

  39. 39.

    merciless

    December 18, 2007 at 12:39 pm

    cleek, of course you’re right that, if the dems win convincingly and lock up a majority, they’ll eventually screw it up. History shows us that it’s inevitable.

    But don’t dwell on potential screwups that may happen some years from now. It interferes with the schadenfreude, and it’s also an exercise in futility.

  40. 40.

    Andrew

    December 18, 2007 at 12:39 pm

    One of the reasons the Republican Party has remained strong is all that cash the Econo-cons throw out there. Would they be anywhere without Wingnut Welfare funding the likes of Rush, Hannity and Fox News?

    If the GOP goes full-on fundie, that money will dry up. Maybe not entirely, but a lot of the funding for the propaganda that props them up will dissipate.

    No, it won’t. The Republican money machine is just a few dozen rich families who basically care about two things: eliminating taxes and eliminating taxes. You really think these hyper-rich are concerned about abortion being available to their daughters, or that creationism is taught in public schools?

    They will gladly continue to fund the Republican machine, including bible thumpers, to ensure that capital gains taxes are slashed and the estate tax is eliminated. Those are really the only things they care about.

    The money is the last thing that will dry up for the Republicans.

  41. 41.

    Doug H.

    December 18, 2007 at 12:39 pm

    After yesterday’s Sturm und Drang, let’s see what finally fell out on the Senate floor:

    Senator Chris Dodd won a temporary victory today after his threats of a filibuster forced Democratic leadership to push back consideration of a measure that would grant immunity to telecom companies that were complicit in warrantless surveillance.

    The measure was part of a greater bill to reorganize the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Earlier on Monday, the Senate, agreed to address a bill that would have overhauled FISA, authorized the monitoring of people outside the United States, given secret courts the power to approve aspects of surveillance, and granted telecom companies retroactive immunity for past cooperation.

    But the threat of Dodd’s filibuster, aimed primarily at the latter measure, persuaded Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-NV, to table the act until January. A compromise on the immunity will ostensibly be worked out in the interim period.

    So Dodd threatened to filibuster and Reid backed off. That sounds to me like Reid didn’t have enough votes for cloture, which would mean Dodd has at least 40 presumably Democratic Senators in his camp. Hmm, what was that again about there being no difference between Republicans and Democrats?

  42. 42.

    jcricket

    December 18, 2007 at 12:40 pm

    Dems will eventually overreach or fuck up somehow, and the GOP will be there to seize the opportunity – as always.

    Oh sure, and when that happens, it’s fine. No party should have unlimited single-party rule forever (what are we, Russia?). It really depends, imho, on how bad the Republicans continue to fuck up. If each electoral loss (2006, 2008, etc) is seen as a reason to move further to the right, then almost no amount of Democratic overreaching will matter. If, instead, they at least go back to coded appeals to the base and reasonable “sounding” policies, all the moderates/independents/fickle losers will just go back voting for the “Free Lunch” party (that’s what actual Republican economic policies amount to).

    My only hope is the Dems don’t snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and fail to make any progress on the gains they’ve made in the last and next few elections. I don’t expect any “New New Deal” type of changes, but how about some real progress on healthcare, tax progressivity/fiscal sanity, ending the war in Iraq/redirecting money to Afghanistan.

    You know, simple no-brainer stuff :-)

    The one thing the Dems could do, to possibly permanently shatter the Republicans national chances, is find a way to convince the moderates that there’s no such thing as a free lunch (tax cuts do not raise revenue; services do not pay for themselves). That fiscal sanity (tax + spend is not whacko) should reign, and that tax progressivity is the right way to do it.

    It’s that 15% or so of voters that seem to shift the balance of power back and forth at a national level. And it’s that growing segment of middle-class-ish types that can be swayed by economic arguments that would favor them.

  43. 43.

    The Other Steve

    December 18, 2007 at 12:43 pm

    That’s incorrect. Core Republican values, prior to the hijack and rape by the social conservatives, was all about maintaining an individual’s rights.

    The core Republican value has always been to protect the wealthy from competition. The social conservatives, neocons and so forth were just charades to garner votes to support this core platform.

    They probably don’t even realize that is what they are doing. The roots of this go back to the Whigs… the old support of the monarchy in Europe. Hell even the Communists fell into this trap. It’s a sort of human nature, that once you feel you are on top you are better off kicking everybody else down rather than helping them to get a leg up themselves.

    I actually have less of a problem with the social conservatives than I do with this aspect of Republican values.

  44. 44.

    jcricket

    December 18, 2007 at 12:44 pm

    I mean, there is a crapload of crap (is that a tautology? I think probably so) to clean up and not get any credit for

    This is what kills Dems (and it’s what I alluded to above). The cycle is always “Republicans convince people there’s such thing as a free lunch; voters elect Republicans; Republicans fuck shit up; voters elect Dems for “needed change”; Dems clean things up (but don’t do a good job taking credit); Republicans convince people …”

    And so on.

    If Dems can break this cycle they’d do a lot better down the road.

  45. 45.

    jcricket

    December 18, 2007 at 12:48 pm

    No, it won’t. The Republican money machine is just a few dozen rich families who basically care about two things: eliminating taxes and eliminating taxes.

    You forgot eliminating regulations.

    There’s a line from a cheesy Dolph Lundgren movie that seems apropos of the right-wing attitude: “This is not I hit you, you hit me. This is I hit you, I hit you, I fucking hit you.”

    There’s endless money because the wealthy have gotten wealthier at a rate far faster than the rest of us have “benefited” from the economic growth of the last 20-30 years. In the case of Soros, Gordon Moore, Bill Gates and Warren Buffett – money can be used for far greater good than I could have imagined. In the case of Moon, Scaife and so on, the opposite.

  46. 46.

    The Other Steve

    December 18, 2007 at 12:48 pm

    No, it won’t. The Republican money machine is just a few dozen rich families who basically care about two things: eliminating taxes and eliminating taxes. You really think these hyper-rich are concerned about abortion being available to their daughters, or that creationism is taught in public schools?

    They will gladly continue to fund the Republican machine, including bible thumpers, to ensure that capital gains taxes are slashed and the estate tax is eliminated. Those are really the only things they care about.

    The money is the last thing that will dry up for the Republicans.

    Amen. Look at the stuff that came out from Abrahamhoff. They viewed the social conservatives as useful idiots in their cause.

    What was their cause? Protecting one favored group from competition.

    That is the core of Republicanism. All the other stuff are campaign tactics.

  47. 47.

    Raenelle

    December 18, 2007 at 12:49 pm

    Dodd’s getting my vote in the primary simply because he has earned it.

  48. 48.

    The Other Steve

    December 18, 2007 at 12:50 pm

    You forgot eliminating regulations.

    That depends. The Republicans love Regulations which are designed to protect companies from competition.

  49. 49.

    cleek

    December 18, 2007 at 12:50 pm

    I do not, based on current trends and activities and statements and whatnot, think that Democratic overreach is a real concern for us at this particular point in time.

    right. not at this point in time.

    but, if elected, a Dem won’t sit in the WH until Jan 09. a lot of things can happen from now till then. and obviously, there’s another 4 years till the next presidential election. a lot can change in 5 years.

    what i’m trying to say is that the GOP is not going to go away, and neither are the Dems are not immune from self-inflicted wounds.

    i’d love it if the GOP splintered into its constituent parts or if it spent the next decade running on Bush’s record. and i’d love it if the Dems ran the government openly, honestly and transparently, forever. but, well, you know…

  50. 50.

    JoyceH

    December 18, 2007 at 12:51 pm

    Don’t give up on Dodd! I was leaning Dodd anyway, but today I’m a full-force Doddiac! Send him some money, give him some blog buzz – MAKE the media pay attention.

    I am SO sick of the media’s blah blah blah circular go-round ClintonObamaEdwards I could just PUKE! It’s like they think they can FORCE the voters to choose one of these three and ignore the other options.

    Fercryinoutloud, why NOT Dodd?!

  51. 51.

    cleek

    December 18, 2007 at 12:51 pm

    and neither are the Dems are not immune from self-inflicted wounds.

    fixed

  52. 52.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 12:52 pm

    I’m with you, jcricket. I wasn’t ever a big fan of Clinton (except now, in hindsight and in comparison? He is like the Second Coming.) but it burned me up that he couldn’t at the very least, get credit for turning the massive Reagan deficit into the largest surplus in American history — using progressive taxation and sound economic policy — and just to salt the wound, that Republicans kept getting to wear the mantle of “fiscal responsibility” despite having fiscal responsibility that would put a drunken sailor on shore leave in Bangkok to shame. I just keep hoping there’s a point at which, when you are pointing to a chicken and saying “that’s a lobster”, that people will finally start seeing the feathers.

    I am locally famous, btw, for my fabulous analogies.

  53. 53.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 12:55 pm

    It’s true — I’m impressed by Dodd’s standing up for the filibuster this week. It made him look good to me.

  54. 54.

    The Other Steve

    December 18, 2007 at 12:55 pm

    One thing I would like to see changed, is public attitudes.

    Congress should do less, not more. Passing bills is a bad thing. It should take years to get a piece of legislation through committees and what not.

  55. 55.

    Pb

    December 18, 2007 at 1:00 pm

    “This was a Turkish decision,” Rice said of the Sunday airstrike. “And we have made clear to the Turkish government that we continue to be concerned about anything that could lead to civilian casualties or anything that could destabilize the North.”

    Er, yeah, Condi. Nice job there keeping Turkey in line, that must be the gov’t that’s been destabilizing Iraq all these years. I mean, you wouldn’t want foreign military actions to result in civilian casualties there or anything. Sheesh.

  56. 56.

    Cindrella Ferret

    December 18, 2007 at 1:00 pm

    That sounds to me like Reid didn’t have enough votes for cloture, which would mean Dodd has at least 40 presumably Democratic Senators in his camp.

    Actually the Senate voted 76-10 for cloture. Reid tabled the Bill because he got more than half a million emails on the subject AND Dodd threatened to filibuster every amendment offered. (Senate rules allow amendments from the floor.) In other words they would have been their through Christmas. So good for Dodd, Feingold and the blogoshpere.

  57. 57.

    Cindrella Ferret

    December 18, 2007 at 1:07 pm

    … having fiscal responsibility that would put a drunken sailor on shore leave in Bangkok to shame.

    I was in the Army, but you are correct, fiscal responsibility wasn’t anywhere on my radar screen while in Bangkok. And that is all I am saying about it. Well, except for the time that … (oops, I think I hear my wife calling me!)

  58. 58.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 1:10 pm

    I just keep hoping there’s a point at which, when you are pointing to a chicken and saying “that’s a lobster”, that people will finally start seeing the feathers.

    That ain’t lobster! The Busheviks have been trying to pass off chicken shit as chicken soup.

  59. 59.

    jcricket

    December 18, 2007 at 1:11 pm

    That depends. The Republicans love Regulations which are designed to protect companies from competition.

    Those aren’t regulations. Those are commandments sent down from the lord to enable the glorious victory of capitalism.

  60. 60.

    Andrew

    December 18, 2007 at 1:12 pm

    You forgot eliminating regulations.

    This is more a business class interest. The republicans may indeed lose the typical business folks if they completely drift into Christian fundamentalism.

    The business class is fairly broad and they too vote Republican for the low taxes, but they are distinct from the hyper-rich. They need things like non-retarded workers, competitive markets, stable international trade and financial systems, etc.

  61. 61.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 1:19 pm

    You guys are funny and I like it here. That’s all I have to say. G*damn, do I really have to do work today? It’s, like, almost Christmas n stuff.

  62. 62.

    jcricket

    December 18, 2007 at 1:23 pm

    I am locally famous, btw, for my fabulous analogies.

    I am locally famous for my sarcasm, dry wit, and resemblance to Barak Obama. By locally I mean within my own mind.

  63. 63.

    mostest

    December 18, 2007 at 1:26 pm

    You said…
    “I am instinctively repulsed by Clinton”

    You know why…because she is a strong woman and you are a weak man. See the word “instinctively” gives you away. Can you articulate why you are repulsed?

    For the very reason you now feel a need to vote for Obama (smear tactics) is the very reason I “instinctively” need to vote for Clinton.

  64. 64.

    Ninerdave

    December 18, 2007 at 1:32 pm

    Kerrey Translated

    While I never was the biggest Hillary fan, and didn’t intend to vote for her for the simple fact that I’m sick of Bushes and Clintons in the White House, this last week or so with the “slips” from her campaign has really turned me off on her period. In fact it’s at the point if she’s nominated, I’ll be voting third party, leave the space blank, or hell maybe even GOP.

  65. 65.

    Shygetz

    December 18, 2007 at 1:33 pm

    That’s incorrect. Core Republican values, prior to the hijack and rape by the social conservatives, was all about maintaining an individual’s rights.

    War on Drugs. McCarthyism. Hell, even Anthony Comstock was a Republican, and lobbied his fellow Republicans to pass the Comstock laws against obscenity and birth control back in the 19th century. How far back does one have to go to find these mythical “core Republican values” unblemished by “social conservatives”?

    You fail.

  66. 66.

    4tehlulz

    December 18, 2007 at 1:33 pm

    fiscal responsibility wasn’t anywhere on my radar screen while in Bangkok.

    Thanks. Now I have Falco stuck in my head.

  67. 67.

    Ninerdave

    December 18, 2007 at 1:33 pm

    Obama’s homophobia

    Demi, care to elaborate? Beyond the preacher he had at one of his appearances I mean. Is there more I’ve missed?

  68. 68.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 1:35 pm

    You look me in my virtual eye (green, and stunning) and tell me that if you pulled Joe Blow off the street in Iowa and asked him which were better days for this country, Clinton or Bush, he would tell you Bush?

    I never said that. Don’t read into anything I say, or you’ll miss its meaning.

    The average Joe Blow, as evidenced by this countries social apathy and lack of voting, etc., is an apolitical person. If the gov’t goes too far right, they swing left. Too far left, swing right. Wash, rinse, repeat.

    I think your average person would say the Clinton years were better, but don’t forget that Clinton was a moderate Democrat. This country is not and never will be ready for a die-hard. Even Bush was voted on his folksiness and not his values (if any exist).

    the Democrats aren’t going to have any damn money to even do the most fundamental things that they stand for,

    This has never stopped our gov’t before, regardless of the party in power.

  69. 69.

    The Other Andrew

    December 18, 2007 at 1:36 pm

    I have a hard time seeing any of the current crop of Dems (Presidential candidates or otherwise) overreaching/going “too far” to the left. I think they’d govern from the proverbial New Center, and it’d take a ton of pressure to get them to tack even center-left.

    I think that’s what the GOP is really afraid of: they spend all this time and money scaremongering about what’ll happen if the Dems get in power, and when they do, it’s…pretty uneventful and low-key, and the gov’t stuff they do actually tends to work. (SCHIP was a problem because it was successful, etc.)

  70. 70.

    Shygetz

    December 18, 2007 at 1:37 pm

    I’d like to join in the chorus…why not Dodd? I’d like to see Dodd getting more coverage, including on this site. Ironically, maybe if he were doing a crappier job and putting his foot in his mouth more, he’d be doing better due to more coverage. Instead, he’s saying and DOING exactly what many Dems say they want, and getting roundly ignored.

  71. 71.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 1:38 pm

    Eh, I’m a chick and I’m instinctively repulsed by Hillary.

    I involuntarily shudder when she cackles, too. Quit doing that, Hillary.

  72. 72.

    Ninerdave

    December 18, 2007 at 1:39 pm

    So Dodd threatened to filibuster and Reid backed off

    Actually, Reid wouldn’t honor Dodd’s hold (although he happily honor’s GOP’s holds), he actually made Dodd come back to DC and talk it down. 8 hours later Reid pulled the bill.

  73. 73.

    Bombadil

    December 18, 2007 at 1:40 pm

    Don’t read into anything I say, or you’ll miss its meaning.

    Whaaa?

  74. 74.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 1:40 pm

    I have a hard time seeing any of the current crop of Dems (Presidential candidates or otherwise) overreaching/going “too far” to the left.

    Maybe. I think Edwards proposals are a little on the radical-leftist side. I think Obama would be easily influenced by the more liberal Representatives and Senators. I could see Hillary staying middle, but only because she’s smart enough to listen to Bill about going to far. OTOH, I can also see her being as hardline and authoritarian as Bush.

  75. 75.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 1:42 pm

    I “instinctively” need to vote for Clinton.

    You know why…because having a uterus makes you an estrogen, molotov cocktail.

  76. 76.

    TheFountainHead

    December 18, 2007 at 1:42 pm

    I love Chris Dodd, I think he’s a fabulous senator. But a fabulous senator does not a fabulous President make. What Dodd lacks that the Obama, Edwards, Clinton, and even Biden clusterfuck has is a third dimension. It has nothing to do with their politics or their campaign war chests, and everything to do with their stage presence, for lack of a better term. Obama and Edwards, and I suppose even Clinton stir people to action, sometimes without so much more than a few inspirational words. People listen to Dodd and the reaction is, “That’s a really smart guy, and I like him…what’s on Comedy Central?” Like it or not, this third dimension IS a presidential quality and it is necessary to get elected in this country ESPECIALLY in this day and age. Even Bush has it, though his has certainly worn thin in the last eight years.

    So vote for Dodd if it pleases you to do so, but I don’t think there’s any vast MSM conspiracy to keep him down or anything, I think as smart and as awesome as he is he lacks the ability to inspire. A leader must inspire to gain a following and a leader without a following is, well, Chris Dodd.

  77. 77.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 1:42 pm

    I am locally famous for my sarcasm, dry wit, and resemblance to Barak Obama.

    Lucky you. Most people think I resemble a dick with ears.

  78. 78.

    liberal

    December 18, 2007 at 1:43 pm

    Main reason I doin’t like Hillary is that she’s too far to the right.

    Most specifically, she’s way too hawkish on Iran.

  79. 79.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 1:44 pm

    their stage presence, for lack of a better term.

    Charisma

  80. 80.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 1:45 pm

    Don’t read into anything I say, or you’ll miss its it has no meaning.

    Fixed

  81. 81.

    ding7777

    December 18, 2007 at 1:46 pm

    Obama sez: “But you know, probably, the strongest experience I have in foreign relations is the fact that I spent four years living overseas when I was a child in Southeast Asia.”

    But don’t ever, ever, ever compliment him on it! EVER!

  82. 82.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 1:46 pm

    That was childish. Fixed in your own narrow world-view, I guess.

  83. 83.

    John S.

    December 18, 2007 at 1:47 pm

    Most specifically, she’s way too hawkish on Iran.

    Because she pays fealty to her AIPAC overlords.

  84. 84.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 1:47 pm

    Most people think I resemble a dick with ears.

    Stop proving it.

  85. 85.

    liberal

    December 18, 2007 at 1:47 pm

    Reasons not to like Obama:
    * Too much BS hot air about hope, unity, etc (yeah, I know that all politicians do it, but he seems worse)
    * Keeping that vicious anti-gay bigot in his campaign
    * Too much “we need to rise above partisanship” rhetoric—like saying to a rapist and his victim that we need to rise above crime
    * Missed at least one key vote in the Senate, and then claims he would have voted the right way
    * Some BS rhetoric about Dems being too hard on or too anti- religion (or something like that)

  86. 86.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 1:48 pm

    Well, Cass, when you said,

    when one party has all the power they tend to screw it up and go to [sic] far, creating public backlash for the opposition

    — that’s ZOMG true for right now, but I thought you were implying it was also true in 2000 and that’s why GWB “won”. Maybe you weren’t, I dunno. I don’t think people ever thought Clinton went too far, he isn’t any kind of leftist and I agree that he governed from a centrist position. I also agree in a very general way that there is a natural ‘corrections’ sort of tendency, that people get shaken out of their complacency/apathy/whatever and correct the direction of the country when it gets too far off course.

    I just think the Democrats’ problem right now is that they are so terrified of that possibility that they can’t see that they were elected, and will continue to be elected (if they are) on the strength of their being unlike the fools who got us here. They need to stand up for what they believe in, and not apologize for it. We should be the party that believes, at a minimum, in health care for children. Don’t want health care for children? Fine, there’s a party for you. Join it before it’s gone. We should be a party of equal rights, and this civil unions crap is separate but equal. You’re Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve? Fine, there’s a party for you. We should be a party that believes if you’ve worked hard your entire life, your job, health insurance, and pension shouldn’t be swept out from under you with no safety net to take its place. You favor the interests of the wealthy, fine, there’s a party for you. Rinse and repeat that.

  87. 87.

    liberal

    December 18, 2007 at 1:49 pm

    John S. commented,

    Because she pays fealty to her AIPAC overlords.

    Unfortunately, this is the primary reason, which means she’s less likely to change her position were she to actually win the Presidency.

  88. 88.

    TheFountainHead

    December 18, 2007 at 1:49 pm

    Charisma

    Charisma is what gets you laid on the weekend. This is something on a slightly grander scale than that.

  89. 89.

    jenniebee

    December 18, 2007 at 1:51 pm

    Core Republican values, prior to the hijack and rape by the social conservatives, was all about maintaining an individual’s rights.

    If we’re talking about any time since 1865 this is true, provided that one understands that by “individual” Republicans mean “corporations.”

    I’ll grant you that the first five years were full of dreamy ideals, combined with concessions to nativists. Ooh, damn – it’s spoiled again!

  90. 90.

    TheFountainHead

    December 18, 2007 at 1:52 pm

    Reasons not to like Obama:

    Too much BS hot air about hope, unity, etc (yeah, I know that all politicians do it, but he seems worse)
    Keeping that vicious anti-gay bigot in his campaign
    Too much “we need to rise above partisanship” rhetoric—-like saying to a rapist and his victim that we need to rise above crime
    Missed at least one key vote in the Senate, and then claims he would have voted the right way
    Some BS rhetoric about Dems being too hard on or too anti- religion (or something like that)

    Care to be more vague?

  91. 91.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 1:53 pm

    but I thought you were implying it was also true in 2000 and that’s why GWB “won”. Maybe you weren’t, I dunno. I don’t think people ever thought Clinton went too far, he isn’t any kind of leftist and I agree that he governed from a centrist position.

    I wasn’t implying it about Clinton, but I do think the voting public got concerned about Gore, who was visibly more liberal than Clinton.

    see that they were elected, and will continue to be elected (if they are) on the strength of their being unlike the fools who got us here.

    “We’re not them” only works for so long and is a poor excuse at this point. The Dems problem is that they don’t know where they stand anymore. There is no foundation of beliefs anymore. Everything you just listed is not an across the board position. Until the Dems start to stand for something again, they will continue to be ineffective.

  92. 92.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 1:53 pm

    This has never stopped our gov’t before, regardless of the party in power.

    Are we down to junk-bond-credit status with the Chinese yet? ‘Cause that’ll sure as shootin’ stop it.

  93. 93.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 1:54 pm

    Charisma is what gets you laid on the weekend.

    I just called that good ol’ Southern charm.

  94. 94.

    mostest

    December 18, 2007 at 1:54 pm

    “Jen Says:

    Eh, I’m a chick and I’m instinctively repulsed by Hillary.

    I involuntarily shudder when she cackles, too. Quit doing that, Hillary”

    You refer to yourself as a “chick” and your instinctively repulsed by Hillary? There are at least two ways of looking at that statment: 1) you are impersonating a female or 2) you are too young to understand what women have went through and still are going through to understand how silly your statement was.

    Liberal has it right. Liberal gives reasons not “instincts.”

  95. 95.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 1:54 pm

    I wasn’t implying it about Clinton, but I do think the voting public got concerned about Gore, who was visibly more liberal than Clinton.

    Yeah, that’s why the majority of them voted for him.

  96. 96.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 1:57 pm

    Yeah, that’s why the majority of them voted for him.

    Not enough to get the necessary electoral votes. Look at it the other way. How many people did vote for Bush, even after a successful Democratic Administration?

  97. 97.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 1:58 pm

    what women have went through and still are going through

    See this is what happens. First, you let’em out of the kitchen, then they want to read books and shit. Now it’s typing and voting and lecturing.

  98. 98.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 1:59 pm

    You’re right, I’ve been here for months impersonating a female by choosing a female name, waxing on about how cute my kids are, boring everyone to tears, just so I could set you up with my Hillary opinions. Zing!

    I can call myself a chick if I want to, that’s feminism, baby!

    I have plenty of reasons for disliking Hillary. However big this box is, they won’t hold them all. In ADDITION, I am viscerally repulsed by her. She’s phony and manipulative and I don’t see a genuine bone in her body. If you think I’m somehow out of the mainstream on this, you’ve never, uh, talked to another person. I’ll vote for her if she’s the nominee. I vote Democratic. But that doesn’t mean I have to like her.

  99. 99.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 2:00 pm

    Liberal has it right. Liberal gives reasons not “instincts.”

    Seriously, I call BS. Liberalism is all about the “feel good” positions: for the greater good, for the poor children, etc.

  100. 100.

    Punchy

    December 18, 2007 at 2:00 pm

    Damn, 2 open threads sandwiched between some marginally important post on Huck? What are you now…Atrios?

  101. 101.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 2:02 pm

    Not enough to get the necessary electoral votes.

    It would have been enough, if not for SCOTUS interfering and stopping the vote count in Florida.

  102. 102.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 2:03 pm

    She was using the name “Liberal”. Man, that No Child Left Behind thing really fell through for you, didn’t it, Cass?

    I find it interesting that you seem to be conceding that conservatives are for the greater bad and against poor children.

  103. 103.

    MJ

    December 18, 2007 at 2:03 pm

    The top three Democrats are an empty suit, a sleaze ball trial lawyer and power hungry triangulater. John Kerry might even seem strong in this field. These are the best the Dems have to offer? I see another 4 years in the White House for the GOP.

  104. 104.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 2:05 pm

    Liberalism is all about the “feel good” positions: for the greater good, for the poor children, etc.

    Yeah, let’s not do anything for the greater good or for poor children.

  105. 105.

    Cindrella Ferret

    December 18, 2007 at 2:05 pm

    A leader must inspire to gain a following and a leader without a following is, well, Chris Dodd.

    Chris Dodd actually leading on a fundamental issue like protecting the 4th Amendment is very inspirational. Glenn Greenwald said it best:

    The very idea for the “hold” originated among a few citizens, was almost immediately exploded into a virtual movement by tens of thousands of people, and was then made into a reality by a single political figure, Chris Dodd, responding to that passion by taking the lead on it.

    Chris Dodd and the blogosphere are responsible for Harry Reid receiving a half million emails on this issue. I call that results. Lets leave the Dog N’ Pony Shows to–well–the dogs and ponies.

    HRC’s recent claim that she would “work” for us, was nowhere to be seen yesterday. Dodd got on an airplane and went to DC and kept his word to fight this legislation. The other Senate Democrats running for President followed the now trite and impotent Path of the Strongly Worded Letter. OOooohhh! Those big meanies! What next? A stern finger pointed at a camera?

  106. 106.

    HyperIon

    December 18, 2007 at 2:06 pm

    Dreggas, Donohue doesn’t want to endorse Huck…

    the tension between catholics and southern baptists is nothing new. southern baptists think catholics worship images. southern baptist churches have no “idols”. no statues AND no pics of JC. and, of course, southern baptists believe that catholics worship mary, a BIG no no. for southern baptists, there’s the trinity and nothing else, no saints, no popes, just you, the trinity and the bible (the divinely inspired word of god, every word of which is TRUE). i doubt Huckbee would disagree with anything i’ve written here because it is the SB doctrine he learned at SB divinity school. so that Donohue no likey Huckabee is hardly surprising.

  107. 107.

    jenniebee

    December 18, 2007 at 2:07 pm

    Not enough to get the necessary electoral votes. Look at it the other way. How many people did vote for Bush, even after a successful Democratic Administration?

    It’s ridiculous to look at that and attribute it to public disagreement with Gore’s actual political positions. To do that ignores the impact of, just pulling two big factors out of the hat, Monicagate and the press’s proven falsification of issues that supposedly revealed “character flaws” in Gore.

    And while we’re at it, considering the racist voter roll purging shenanigans in Florida and the fact in spite of that that recounts of the state showed that a majority of Floridians who voted actually voted Gore, you don’t really have correlation there, anyway. If you want to talk about popularity on the SCOTUS, you might have a point…

  108. 108.

    Face

    December 18, 2007 at 2:08 pm

    Public School Enemy is the real threat.

    Fight the power, bitches.

  109. 109.

    Svensker

    December 18, 2007 at 2:09 pm

    Hillary is just Bush-lite but with all her marbles. Don’t think she’d have a problem torturing suspects if it played well in the polls.

    Obama is appealing because he seems like something new. Maybe he isn’t, maybe he’s just the same old same old, but he’s not a Bush nor a Clinton and he isn’t connected to any of the “old guys”. He seems like a change from cynicism and lawlessness. And he seems sane, which is definitely a plus at this point.

    Edward just isn’t getting to me — nothing wrong with him, just not connecting for some reason.

    Dodd is the only candidate I’ve donated to, all because of his FISA hold and filibuster. He doesn’t have a chance in hell, but I’d like to see him be majority leader. Or Vice President. But he’d probably be more effective in Congress than as Veep.

    The Repubs are all nuts, except Paul who won’t make it, and McCain who’s just a good old fashioned fascist — he loves him some Big Government and Big Military.

    Can we start a movement that if (when) a Dem is elected Pres, we get to take Jonah Goldberg, et al, and administer a bit of “swim therapy” to them? I reeelly wanna. Guess it’s that old human revenge gene kickin’ in, huh?

  110. 110.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 2:09 pm

    MJ, come back with your A game. Or your C game, at least. Even I’m not bored enough for that.

  111. 111.

    Grumpy Code Monkey

    December 18, 2007 at 2:09 pm

    After the FISA standoff yesterday I’m now in Dodd’s camp. I know, I know, chance of winning, Miami Dolphins and all that, but in the end I have to support the candidate I like, not the one I think will win. He done good yesterday.

    If he makes it as far as the Texas primaries, he has my vote. Hell, it’s more than any of these other clowns have done for a while.

  112. 112.

    TheFountainHead

    December 18, 2007 at 2:11 pm

    The top three Democrats are an empty suit, a sleaze ball trial lawyer and power hungry triangulater. John Kerry might even seem strong in this field. These are the best the Dems have to offer? I see another 4 years in the White House for the GOP.

    And which of their stellar candidates do you see accomplishing this?

  113. 113.

    Nicole

    December 18, 2007 at 2:16 pm

    Thanks. Now I have Falco stuck in my head.

    “One Night in Bangkok” Bangkok? That’s Murray Head. (Yes, I am slightly embarrassed I know that.)

    Unless Falco has a Bangkok song. I admit I am unfamiliar with the entire Falco oeuvre.

    And thanks- now “One Night in Bangkok” is alternating in my head with “Der Kommissar.” I think I’m going to go kill myself.

  114. 114.

    TheFountainHead

    December 18, 2007 at 2:18 pm

    Dodd got on an airplane and went to DC and kept his word to fight this legislation.

    Which he can afford to do politically because he’s already been written off by the right, the middle, and most everyone else. Dodd has nothing to lose in terms of political capitol and everything to gain from political showmanship. If Obama, Clinton, or Edwards had filibustered it would have been labeled a political stunt, and nothing more. How can that not be obvious? Don’t get me wrong, I back what Dodd did to the teeth, but I don’t see any reason to condemn the other Democrats because they didn’t see the need to beat him to it o do it themselves.

  115. 115.

    JoyceH

    December 18, 2007 at 2:18 pm

    Cinderella Ferret: “Chris Dodd actually leading on a fundamental issue like protecting the 4th Amendment is very inspirational. ”

    You said it! Earlier, Clinton, Obama, and Biden had claimed that they would “support” Dodd’s filibuster. You support a filibuster ON THE FLOOR OF THE SENATE, not by issuing a statement of vague support from freakin’ IOWA.

    By campaigning in Iowa when they should have been supporting their colleague on the Senate floor, this is the message Senators Clinton, Obama, and Biden were sending to me and to every one of us:

    “MY ambitions are more important than YOUR rights.”

    Eff them.

  116. 116.

    jenniebee

    December 18, 2007 at 2:19 pm

    Seriously, I call BS. Liberalism is all about the “feel good” positions: for the greater good, for the poor children, etc.

    Oooh! somebody’s basing their impressions on oppo manuals instead of actually doing their own research!

    Conservatives like to characterize liberal policies as being all feelgood charity to assuage guilt. I’m sure there are some people too, who like liberal policies because they’re ethically sound, but the truth is, they’re founded on solid sensible growth policies. You want a third world economy? Nothing could be simpler to achieve, just defund public education. You want a country that has healthy, well educated adults who can really get the economy churning? Then don’t let them slip through the cracks as kids. It was Churchill who said that he could think of no better purpose for government than getting milk into babies, and he had a couple of good insights in his life. You want an economy that doesn’t fluctuate wildly? Keynesian economics, baby. If on the other hand, Great Depressions seem like a pretty good idea to you (and if you’re super rich, you get further ahead the worse the economy is, believe it or not), well hell, all you have to do is let rampant speculation rule the day.

    It isn’t that Conservatives are realists, it’s that they sell some self-benefiting BS to marks like Cassidy who buy into it on the theory that what is actually sound fiscal policy can’t be realistic because it also happens to be sound morals.

  117. 117.

    MJ

    December 18, 2007 at 2:21 pm

    I think McCain, Rudy or Fred could beat any of them. Don’t take this to mean I am thrilled with either of these three, none of them are stellar either but I see them all as more electable.

  118. 118.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 2:23 pm

    I find it interesting that you seem to be conceding that conservatives are for the greater bad and against poor children.

    Well sure, I think social conservatives are for the greater bad. If I had to pick between a social conservative and a liberal, I’d pick anarchy and insurgency.

    Yeah, let’s not do anything for the greater good or for poor children.

    The “greater good” is a slippery slope. Anytime something is done for the greater good in this country, someone gets unfairly fucked. The “greater good” is a feel good excuse to push an agenda and stomp on someone’s rights.

    t’s ridiculous to look at that and attribute it to public disagreement with Gore’s actual political positions.

    How is it ridiculous? Even with Clinton’s scandals, he was a popular POTUS, who, especially in hindsight, was very successful with domestic policy. Leaving out the speculation and conspiracy theories, some of which are believable, you still have to wonder why so many people voted for Bush

  119. 119.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 2:24 pm

    OOh, I’m a Jennie B. too. Or is it just the alter ego I have set up in order to trick people who think I don’t like Hillary because I am a sexist man masquerading as a woman?

    No, it’s not. But she’s a good writer. Go chickiebee!

    Okay, now I sound like Tess. Please remix your inner iPod: Tess, Falco, Der Kommissar, better throw in some Escape (the Pina Colada song) for good measure. You’re welcome!

  120. 120.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 2:26 pm

    Fred couldn’t beat my grandma in a foot race, unless there was a Scotch at the finish line.

    And unless you’re the only person being polled, who *you* see as electable don’t really matter, do it?

    Come on, you’ve got more game than that, right?

  121. 121.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 2:27 pm

    But she’s a good writer. Go chickiebee!

    Excellent fiction, I agree.

  122. 122.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 2:29 pm

    you still have to wonder why so many people voted for Bush

    Amen!

  123. 123.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 2:30 pm

    who like liberal policies because they’re ethically sound, but the truth is, they’re founded on solid sensible growth policies.

    I don’t know. Liberal policies sound all authoritarianism-ally to me. call me crazy, being a grown man and all, but I really don’t like having people think they ought to decide what my best interests are.

  124. 124.

    D-Chance.

    December 18, 2007 at 2:30 pm

    Punchy Says:

    Damn, 2 open threads sandwiched between some marginally important post on Huck? What are you now…Atrios?

    Given what’s being discussed… there’s not much that’s newsworthy. Just look at the current Memeorandum stories:

    TPM Election Central: GOP Senator Smith Defends Lott’s Segregationist Comments (Strom Thurmond)

    Romney Attended Planned Parenthood Fundraiser in 1994 (13 year-ago nothing event)

    Terry L. Garlock / Atlanta Journal-Constitution: Media glow on Fonda ignores her treason (Jane Fonda… 40 years ago???)

    Or from this very thread… still debating the Florida vote in the 2000 election?

    Yes, it’s a slow news cycle right now… let’s go start another war.

  125. 125.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 2:30 pm

    Good heavens, Cass, is that what passes for snark with you people? Did you ask for a book of knock-knock jokes for Christmas?

  126. 126.

    jenniebee

    December 18, 2007 at 2:32 pm

    Excellent fiction, I agree.

    Now there’s a rebuttal! What can I say except, nuh unh! Or maybe, takes one to know one!

    Zing!

  127. 127.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 2:32 pm

    you people?

    Who? White, active duty, educated? I don’t think we’re a real voting bloc.

  128. 128.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 2:33 pm

    What can I say except, nuh unh! Or maybe, takes one to know one!

    At least you’re being consistent.

  129. 129.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 2:33 pm

    Nah, that’s not any better.

  130. 130.

    Bombadil

    December 18, 2007 at 2:34 pm

    And thanks- now “One Night in Bangkok” is alternating in my head with “Der Kommissar.” I think I’m going to go kill myself.

    Here’s a trick my daughter taught me. If you get a song stuck in your head, mentally hum the tune “Girl from Ipanema”. You don’t need the lyrics, just the tune, and you don’t need to do it out loud (in fact, it works better if you don’t). For some reason, “Girl from Ipanema” will not get caught in your head, but will bump any other song out. Works every time.

  131. 131.

    jenniebee

    December 18, 2007 at 2:35 pm

    I don’t know. Liberal policies sound all authoritarianism-ally to me. call me crazy, being a grown man and all, but I really don’t like having people think they ought to decide what my best interests are.

    Don’t ever get a costco membership then. You’re a grown man, you shouldn’t have someone else decide what to buy in bulk for you. After all, they might offer a better deal on something you don’t want than on something you do, and then you’re totally screwed.

  132. 132.

    Cindrella Ferret

    December 18, 2007 at 2:35 pm

    I think McCain, Rudy or Fred could beat any of them. Don’t take this to mean I am thrilled with either of these three, none of them are stellar either but I see them all as more electable.

    I’ll be Miss America before any of these three are in the White House.

  133. 133.

    LiberalTarian

    December 18, 2007 at 2:36 pm

    I just want a president who feels that truth is as important as reconciliation in mending the damage done to a country when a lying, thieving, torturing, war-mongering executive is given carte blanche. HRC? Too caught up in the system to change the system. BHO? Too busy trying to mollify and make the the wrong doers comfortable to follow the rough road to its conclusion so that he could map a new one.

    Edwards? He might, if he were in a position to do so.

    Sigh. I am voting straight Democratic, but I reserve the right to be disappointed. But, at least they aren’t Scuzpublicans.

  134. 134.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 2:36 pm

    Don’t ever get a costco membership then. You’re a grown man, you shouldn’t have someone else decide what to buy in bulk for you. After all, they might offer a better deal on something you don’t want than on something you do, and then you’re totally screwed.

    You just made absolutely no sense. Plus that whole shopping thing is the woman’s job.

  135. 135.

    TheFountainHead

    December 18, 2007 at 2:37 pm

    By campaigning in Iowa when they should have been supporting their colleague on the Senate floor, this is the message Senators Clinton, Obama, and Biden were sending to me and to every one of us:

    “MY ambitions are more important than YOUR rights.”

    Eff them.

    For all you or I know, it was phone calls from these three to the office of Harry Reid that forced him to pull it in the end anyway, it doesn’t seem as though it was really Dodd’s filibustering that scared him off. I could see it goes like this:

    Candidates in Iowa to Reid: “Reid, if you %#$& us all on this, and it passes while we’re campaigning, we will BURY you. They won’t find your political body.”

    Reid to the Senate: “I say we put it off until January!”

    If you think that politics is what happens on the Senate floor you’re missing most of the picture.

  136. 136.

    Rick Massimo

    December 18, 2007 at 2:37 pm

    The blogger formally known as the Commissar is right, more people should be explicitly stating precisely what the Clinton camp and their surrogates are doing here. It is bullshit what is being done to Obama.

    More importantly, someone needs to pin down someone from the Clinton camp and have THEM state explicitly and precisely what they are doing. This is something that, when you can get someone to do it to Bush or someone like his toady Perino, causes their bullshit to dry up and blow away on the wind.

    Unfortunately, this only happens to Bush when someone in his camp messes up and allows an actual question. But it’s very effective: “Can you tell me what you’re ACTUALLY saying? Like, with actual concrete nouns and verbs and everything? Oh by the way, as soon as you use the words ‘I find it interesting,’ I’m shouting BULLSHIT at the top of my lungs.”
    Asking it of Clinton herself, or at least someone very high up in her camp, would work wonders.

  137. 137.

    jenniebee

    December 18, 2007 at 2:38 pm

    At least you’re being consistent.

    And you’re being consistently vapid. We’re like a comedy duo, but without the talent.

  138. 138.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 2:38 pm

    Rudy will be Miss America before he’ll be in the White House.

  139. 139.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 2:40 pm

    And you’re being consistently vapid. We’re like a comedy duo, but without the talent.

    To your credit, I don’t think you’re entirely wrong. I just don’t like assumptions made about me. Just because I don’t support liberal policies doesn’t automatically mean I go for the “screw you” policies of the far right. I’m growing more libertarian as I get older. Regardless of who’s in power, I don’t think the Federal Gov’t should usurp the rights of the individual to push an agenda.

  140. 140.

    Jake

    December 18, 2007 at 2:42 pm

    For some reason, “Girl from Ipanema” will not get caught in your head, but will bump any other song out. Works every time.

    [Tries it to remove ONiB & DK from ear-worm prone brain]

    Now I have ONiB, DK & GfI stuck in there. Must be a librofascist plot.

  141. 141.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 2:44 pm

    Cassidy, your problem is that you are interspersing arguments that, while wacko, may have merit; with random, ineffective and annoying troll swipes at people and half-assed, transparent attempts to bait teh feminazis!!1!. (Note: I think our Hillary fan has left.) You must choose, my child.

  142. 142.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 2:45 pm

    I freeking hate you, Jake. Now, I’ve got ONiB alternating with _We will all go together_ and _The Old Dope Peddler_ stuck in my head.

  143. 143.

    jenniebee

    December 18, 2007 at 2:46 pm

    You just made absolutely no sense. Plus that whole shopping thing is the woman’s job.

    Awww… isumz twying to bait the girls? Isumz? Him is doing his best, but him isn’t vewy good at it, is him? No him isn’t!

    Plus it’s charming that a person who is voluntarily part of an organization that tells its members the correct way to fold socks, and then comes into their rooms to check to make sure that the socks are folded and arranged in a drawer in the only correct way (wow) is worried that his liberties might be trampled by America investing in Americans (or is it Americans investing in America? either way) and making the country richer and more powerful in the process. What if Cassidy doesn’t want economic growth, huh? Didn’t anybody ever think of that? Won’t someone please think of that?

  144. 144.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 2:47 pm

    Beyond the preacher he had at one of his appearances I mean

    And other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the theatre?

  145. 145.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 2:48 pm

    C’mon, Escape (the Pina Colada song) doesn’t do anything for you, Demi?

  146. 146.

    Cindrella Ferret

    December 18, 2007 at 2:48 pm

    And thanks- now “One Night in Bangkok” is alternating in my head with “Der Kommissar.” I think I’m going to go kill myself.

    It could be worse.

  147. 147.

    Chris

    December 18, 2007 at 2:49 pm

    I just got here; I want to posit something, but I can’t stick around to argue, so I’ll keep this as unoffensive as possible:

    You know why…because she is a strong woman and you are a weak man.

    I think Hillary is strong. I think she’s so strong, she obliterated any sense of her femininity, like Hulk’s shirt being torn to shreds.

    Just like how Bush needs to be so “strong”, he authorizes torture for lame hicks we have in captivity so we can beat the information out of them. Now Bushie is so “strong” we can’t even see the humanity in him.

    Strength is good.

    The Platonic form of strength is a little overboard.

    Have you ever tasted pure vanilla extract? It’s horrible.

    Disclaimer: As for me, Hillary doesn’t dance enough. Everybody dances for my vote, except her. She acts like she has my vote until she falls on her ass. Not true. Gotta play to win.

  148. 148.

    Zifnab

    December 18, 2007 at 2:50 pm

    Or, rather than it having anything to do with her being female, it could have a lot to do with my instinctive revulsion at her pandering, lying, manipulative, triangulating, condescending self. I really don’t care if she has a Clenis or a Clagina, to be honest, and you can keep these games elsewhere (am I supposed to list all the “strong women” I know and respect and would vote for, or should I say nothing and have your smear of sexism hold? I haven’t played this game in a while and am not up on the rules.)

    Ok, here’s the basic rules:

    it could have a lot to do with my instinctive revulsion at her pandering, lying, manipulative, triangulating, condescending self

    Legitimate criticism.
    Also see: “She voted against a bill I liked / for a bill I didn’t like.”
    “She has a positive /negative /inarticulate /confusing /overly-pedantic/ overly-complicated/ overly-simplistic/ anti-Semetic/ overly-Semetic/ homophobic/ race-o-phobic/ Jesus-phobic/ communist/ capitalist/ hyper-partisan/ not-partisan-enough/ blah blah blah position on my pet issue and I disapprove.”

    These open you up to intelligent criticism smattered with snarky retorts about your support of the FairTax. However, they keep the level of dialogue at the junior high school level and we general appreciate that.

    I am instinctively repulsed by Clinton

    Illegitimate.

    Also see: “Boobs”
    “Pants Suit”
    “Haircut”
    “I agree with Chris Mathews/ K-Lo/ J-Lo/ Tucker Carlson/ Karl Rove/ your mom/ the President”
    “Clenis/ Clagina”
    “Menopause”
    “PMS”
    “Tampon”
    “New York”
    “Whitewater/ Filegate/ Travelgate/ Socksgate/ MonicaGate/ Bill Gates”
    “LOLZ!”
    “LIBRUL”
    “Democrats are worse!”
    “you miss speld it”
    “People are stupid anyway”

    These tend to cling to stereotypes and generally have little factual content to refute or argue over. You reap what you sow, so expect to reap a whirlwind of random negative stereotypes about homosexual Republicans who support the FairTax.

    If these rules confuse you, don’t worry. They’ll be in flux for the duration of this game of Calvinball.

  149. 149.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 2:55 pm

    but him isn’t vewy good at it, is him? No him isn’t!

    I’m not really trying either. I could go on a great Feminist rant, but I really don’t want to type that much.

    Plus it’s charming that a person who is voluntarily part of an organization that tells its members the correct way to fold socks, and then comes into their rooms to check to make sure that the socks are folded and arranged in a drawer in the only correct way (wow) is worried that his liberties might be trampled

    Completely different animal dear. That has nothing to do with liberties. It has everything to do with discipline and changing a persons mindset from individuality to team cohesion.

    Cassidy, your problem is that you are interspersing arguments that, while wacko, may have merit; with random, ineffective and annoying troll swipes at people and half-assed, transparent attempts to bait teh feminazis. (Note: I think our Hillary fan has left.) You must choose, my child.

    I get a kick out of flicking nerves. Sure it’s a vice, but it’s better than meth.

  150. 150.

    Punchy

    December 18, 2007 at 2:55 pm

    “Girl from Ipanema”.

    WTF is this? Come on, peeps, we’re not all pushing 50…Why not just flood the noggin’ with “Ghetto Bird” or “911 is a Joke” instead?

  151. 151.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 2:57 pm

    OTOH, I don’t think it’s whacko to advocate choice, which is essentially what I stand for. A free citizen should have the right to choose what is best for them, within reasonable parameters (murder, rape, child molestation are definitely out). Whether it’s abortion, gay monkey sex, guns, smoking, whatever, it isn’t the gov’t’s role to choose for you.

  152. 152.

    Shygetz

    December 18, 2007 at 3:01 pm

    So vote for Dodd if it pleases you to do so, but I don’t think there’s any vast MSM conspiracy to keep him down or anything, I think as smart and as awesome as he is he lacks the ability to inspire. A leader must inspire to gain a following and a leader without a following is, well, Chris Dodd.

    Did anyone say conspiracy? Anyone? No? Hmmm…

    You go ahead and buy your sizzle; I prefer to buy the steak. And if he’s still on the ticket come Georgia’s turn, I’ll vote for Dodd. It would be refreshing to have someone who’s all cattle and no hat as President for a change.

  153. 153.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 3:01 pm

    Come on, peeps, we’re not all pushing 50

    True enough, but then again, enough of us are…

  154. 154.

    Nicole

    December 18, 2007 at 3:02 pm

    It could be worse.

    I just HAD to go click the link, didn’t I? That’ll teach me.

  155. 155.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 3:03 pm

    I get a kick out of flicking nerves.

    But the whole point is that you’re only flicking my nerves because you’re so *bad* at it, I want to give you little troll pointers, if it weren’t so hard to retrain conservatives…

    I have a candidate for you, Cassidy! He has a blimp, I saw it yesterday, a big-ass blimp. I’m not positive that gay monkey sex is part of his platform, but nobody’s perfect, right?

  156. 156.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 3:04 pm

    Also, I’m pretty sure they have an internet presence, somewhere. If you look. Actually, all you have to do is type his name and turn around three times, and they descend.

  157. 157.

    jenniebee

    December 18, 2007 at 3:05 pm

    It has everything to do with discipline and changing a persons mindset from individuality to team cohesion.

    If only mindsets for the whole country could be changed to admit just a little Team Cohesion there. Those kids in Head Start are on your team too, you know. They may be a dead weight now, but someday they’ll be carrying you. Even if you never collect a Social Security check or a military retirement check, even if you live off of investments, they’ll still be carrying you because they’ll be the workforce that pays the taxes that keeps the roads in good condition and the sewage treatment plants running and they’ll be creating the value of the companies your stock is in.

    But oh noes! What if Cassidy wants raw sewage? Didn’t anybody think of that? And it’s so totally unfair to charge everybody for road maintenance. What if Cassidy doesn’t drive and doesn’t buy anything that’s shipped anywhere and doesn’t use any companies or services whose employees drive to get to work? That would be unfair to Cassidy. Of course, it would also mean that Cassidy was the unibomber – oh wait, even the unibomber used shipping companies. Nevermind.

  158. 158.

    Sam Hutcheson

    December 18, 2007 at 3:09 pm

    John:

    I took a look at Dodd’s positions. As a long-time supporter of Obama I can’t see a lot of differences in the bullet points. I haven’t had a chance to break the policy pieces out by details but if I do I’ll email what I see to you. From where I stand Dodd and Obama are pretty much interchangable, with Obama being the better politician and thus the front runner between the two. I can easily see Dodd being a VP though. If he were the nominee I’d gladly vote for Dodd. I can’t say the same thing for Clinton.

    And no, this isn’t because she’s a “strong woman.” It’s because on all the issues that really matter to me, specifically exponentially expanding executive authority, she’s the closest thing this side of Rudy Guiliani to “four more years.” I don’t think the Constitution can survive another Clinton admin on top of the last 8 years. If she is the nominee I will likely abstain.

  159. 159.

    seaMD

    December 18, 2007 at 3:11 pm

    For all the gut level Clinton haters and Obama lovers, here is an interesting post. http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/Election2008/TLC-eriposte_Dem_primary_support.htm It is long, detailed and well thought out. It is the type of analysis I wish we saw more of. Less of this silly “gut” stuff. Look what we got when we voted in the person we would most like to have a beer with.

  160. 160.

    Jake

    December 18, 2007 at 3:15 pm

    I freeking hate you, Jake. Now, I’ve got ONiB alternating with We will all go together and The Old Dope Peddler stuck in my head.

    You would prefer 99 Red Ballons or Girls Just Wanna Have Fun?

  161. 161.

    Punchy

    December 18, 2007 at 3:15 pm

    I think Cassidy is getting double-teamed by both Jenn and JennEbee….

    Wait…hold on a sec….is it my turn next? Please?

  162. 162.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 3:18 pm

    Well, you can join in if you like, Punchy, but you’d probably be ruining a perfectly good fantasy for some poor schmo out there… :)….possibly Cassidy himself…

  163. 163.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 3:28 pm

    Seeing as how Lauper’s first album in on the changer in my car, I regularly live with _Girls just want to have fun_ stuck between my ears.

    So there.

  164. 164.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 3:30 pm

    Escape (the Pina Colada song) doesn’t do anything for you, Demi?

    I’m more an Edguy _Trinidad_ kind of guy.

  165. 165.

    Jake

    December 18, 2007 at 3:33 pm

    Seeing as how Lauper’s first album in on the changer in my car, I regularly live with Girls just want to have fun stuck between my ears.

    So there.

    Don’t worry, be happy.

  166. 166.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 3:42 pm

    Sheesh, am I the only one to throw our young Punchy a bone?

    Gold Digger, Kanye West.

  167. 167.

    Pb

    December 18, 2007 at 3:45 pm

    Cassidy,

    Liberal policies sound all authoritarianism-ally to me. call me crazy

    Ok…

    I really don’t like having people think they ought to decide what my best interests are.

    Yeah, I know just what you mean. Therefore, you know all that money that went towards (and, indeed, is still going towards) that “Iraq war” thing that I was against from the start? I’d like those tax dollars back now. Also, I’d like a pony.

  168. 168.

    Robert Johnston

    December 18, 2007 at 3:58 pm

    While I never was the biggest Hillary fan, and didn’t intend to vote for her for the simple fact that I’m sick of Bushes and Clintons in the White House, this last week or so with the “slips” from her campaign has really turned me off on her period. In fact it’s at the point if she’s nominated, I’ll be voting third party, leave the space blank, or hell maybe even GOP.

    Amen. Well, except for the end of that second clause, because I don’t share the Presidentialnamerepetitionophobia that seems too common among people putting down Clinton.

    I never liked Clinton much and didn’t intend to vote for her because she’s a conservative. There’s an awful lot of status quo that needs shaking up right about now, and she’s the least likely of any candidate to do that.

    Still, despite that, and despite the recent ridiculous smears emanating from the Clinton camp, I’m more distressed by Obama, whose suit seems emptier each day; who’s too willing to talk of compromise 1) with people unwilling to compromise and 2) when the Democrats are starting from a very moderate policy stance and Republicans are batshit crazy on policy, so that compromise, even if it did happen, would mean gratuitous right wing silliness intermediate to mostly sensible but slightly right moderation (Dem) and total right-wing fucknuttery (Rep); who lies about the content and effect of his policy positions–see the recent health insurance debacle–and, more generally doesn’t seem to take policy seriously–that’s real world use of the word “seriously,” not Village™ “seriously;” and who’s too comfortable with homophobia and other religious intrusions on public policy.

    I’m voting down-ballot in the primary and whimsically–as being a New Yorker completely disenfranchised by the electoral college entitles me to do–in the general election in all likelihood.

  169. 169.

    JoyceH

    December 18, 2007 at 3:58 pm

    Fountainhead says:

    For all you or I know, it was phone calls from these three to the office of Harry Reid that forced him to pull it in the end anyway

    Hey, for all I know, it was my powerful Jedi Mind Tricks that forced Reid to pull the bill.

    But here’s what I do know. I know that a person running for president does not perform a secret maneuver to block passage of a bill containing a provision that the majority of the public opposes and their own base LOATHES, and then not brag about it.

    If you want to support one of these three, feel free, but don’t insult your own intelligence by coming up with these ‘for all we know’ rationales about the great things they’re doing SECRETLY. Come on.

  170. 170.

    Cain

    December 18, 2007 at 3:59 pm

    What Dodd lacks that the Obama, Edwards, Clinton, and even Biden clusterfuck has is a third dimension. It has nothing to do with their politics or their campaign war chests, and everything to do with their stage presence, for lack of a better term

    Actually, I wonder if that’s not exactly what we need. We don’t want someone showy but someone who can get the work done without causing a lot of “show”. Hard to get right wing dorks to start pounding the keyboard trying to get people stirred up if the guy is boring. :-) As long as he’s getting his constitutional duties done that’s great. Plus it’s pretty likely that we are going to have a mostly democratic congress (knock on wood) So I don’t think it’s a particularly a bad thing.

    Now if you’re saying that the mystique of the presidency is needed to sway votes or convince members of congress to do something then perhaps you’re right. But we need a quiet period to get back on solid ground and not go off into left field doing crazy stuff. We’ve had enough of that these past 8 years.

    cain

  171. 171.

    The Other Steve

    December 18, 2007 at 4:01 pm

    Regardless of who’s in power, I don’t think the Federal Gov’t should usurp the rights of the individual to push an agenda.

    How is it that it is wrong when we’re talking tax dollars being spent on autism, but it’s totally ok when it’s tax dollars given to Halliburton to manage military supply lines?

    Reality is, we’re not talking about principles here such as usurping individual rights. We’re talking about preferences. I value helping autisitic children over giving Halliburton a tidy profit for FY2007.

  172. 172.

    cleek

    December 18, 2007 at 4:02 pm

    this outta throw some cold water on all those Pauloids: in the national Republican polls, Paul’s tied with … Alan Keyes.

    imagine the mayhem if that guy runs independent? oy.

  173. 173.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 4:02 pm

    Also see: “Boobs”

    Amen again!

  174. 174.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 4:05 pm

    I want Paul to run as an independent. Can’t you imagine the fun? Or are you just jealous because Cary has that “no blimp” ordinance?

    /teasing

    If Alan Keyes also ran as an independent, I might not turn off the internets until November ’08.

  175. 175.

    The Other Steve

    December 18, 2007 at 4:07 pm

    But here’s what I do know. I know that a person running for president does not perform a secret maneuver to block passage of a bill containing a provision that the majority of the public opposes and their own base LOATHES, and then not brag about it.

    Not to be totally base, but…

    That’s the behavior I’d expect from a pandering weasel…
    People long grew immune to the pandering weasel act, so it doesn’t work. So I don’t know if a smart politician would do that.

    I don’t know what went on, but I saw Reid giving a speech essentially supporting Dodd’s point of view. So it’s my belief that Reid brought this bill forward as a stunt. That is, he wasn’t expecting to take it to a vote at all, he just wanted the debate in the public record.

  176. 176.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 4:09 pm

    I have a candidate for you,

    I’ve already chosen mine. Thanks, though.

    Well, you can join in if you like, Punchy, but you’d probably be ruining a perfectly good fantasy

    Sweetheart, I’m happily married. I know…don’t let the disappointment set in. Go out and live your life.

    or

    I’ve got one woman. Anymore is way too complicated.

    Pick one. :D

    But the whole point is that you’re only flicking my nerves because you’re so bad at it, I want to give you little troll pointers, if it weren’t so hard to retrain conservatives…

    There you go assuming again. Anything you have to say that I’d agree with, is broken down by your inability to see more than two shades of mindset. I’m not even close to being a conservative. I’m just not a liberal Democrat, either.

    You would prefer 99 Red Ballons or Girls Just Wanna Have Fun?

    Oh baby you,…you got what I neeeeeddddd!
    But you say he’s just a friend
    But you say he’s just a friend
    Oh baby you….

    they’ll be the workforce that pays the taxes that keeps the roads in good condition and the sewage treatment plants running and they’ll be creating the value of the companies your stock is in.

    Darlin’, I am that workforce. Do you really think I own stock on a gov’t salary? Take a look at the pay charts and come back to me with this one.

    Secondly, I did say within reasonable parameters. I personally Have no problem with taxes. I’m not a math genius, so I don’t have much of an opinion on any particular tax policies. I just think a little more oversight should go into tax usage. I also support a community’s right to choose. I may be a pro-gun guy, but I understand if a community want to ban CCH’s and open carry. Simple answer, I won’t live there. It’s all about choice and responsibility. Either way, it isn’t the Federal Gov’t’s place to make decisions for a land of grown adults, as if they were children.

  177. 177.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 4:11 pm

    So it’s my belief that Reid brought this bill forward as a stunt.

    Anybody consider that Harry mighta been trying to give his old friend Chris a boost just before the Iowa gangpluck?

  178. 178.

    TheFountainHead

    December 18, 2007 at 4:12 pm

    Hey, for all I know, it was my powerful Jedi Mind Tricks that forced Reid to pull the bill.

    But here’s what I do know. I know that a person running for president does not perform a secret maneuver to block passage of a bill containing a provision that the majority of the public opposes and their own base LOATHES, and then not brag about it.

    If you want to support one of these three, feel free, but don’t insult your own intelligence by coming up with these ‘for all we know’ rationales about the great things they’re doing SECRETLY. Come on.

    Your Jedi Mind tricks are a lot less likely a cause. And are you suggesting that the candidates would look good by telling the voters, “Hey, we support Dodd completely, but it wasn’t him, it was me, because I made a phone call!” Especially after all the attention Dodd’s filibuster got? Some good things DO happen in secret, because sometimes that’s the only way to keep everyone happy enough to keep them at the table! You come on!

  179. 179.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 4:13 pm

    How is it that it is wrong when we’re talking tax dollars being spent on autism, but it’s totally ok when it’s tax dollars given to Halliburton to manage military supply lines?

    I never said it was wrong. As for Halliburton, they really are the best corporation for the job they’ve been hired to do. KBR, has a very long history of reliability and infrastructure support for the military. I can’t say I wouldn’t have gone with them.

  180. 180.

    Jake

    December 18, 2007 at 4:14 pm

    Oh baby you,…you got what I neeeeeddddd!
    But you say he’s just a friend
    But you say he’s just a friend
    Oh baby you….

    I’m never gonna dance again,
    guilty feet ain’t got no rhythm…

    Hey, he fights dirty, I fight dirty.

  181. 181.

    JoyceH

    December 18, 2007 at 4:17 pm

    The Other Steve says:

    So it’s my belief that Reid brought this bill forward as a stunt. That is, he wasn’t expecting to take it to a vote at all, he just wanted the debate in the public record.

    That’s a little too reverse-Machiavelli for me. I don’t know what Reid was up to, but he got a lot of people livid by bringing the Intel bill to the floor instead of the Justice bill, and then incomprehensibly refusing to recognize Dodd’s hold. What does it gain him to infuriate his own base and just add to the ‘rolls over for Bush’ meme?

  182. 182.

    The Other Steve

    December 18, 2007 at 4:17 pm

    For all the gut level Clinton haters and Obama lovers, here is an interesting post. http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/Election2008/TLC-eriposte_Dem_primary_support.htm It is long, detailed and well thought out. It is the type of analysis I wish we saw more of. Less of this silly “gut” stuff. Look what we got when we voted in the person we would most like to have a beer with.

    That is a pretty good analysis.

    I’m kind of in a similar boat. I really like most all of them, but I think Hillary would be the best candidate for reasons articulated in that post. I like Obama, but there are aspects of him that worry me.

  183. 183.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 4:19 pm

    Whew, Cass, I had thought maybe you had tricked me into playing right into your little fantasy, there. Was mortified at the prospect that you might be sharper than me after all. I’m gratified to know that that is not the case. And for the coup de grace, a defense of Halliburton and KBR!

  184. 184.

    The Other Steve

    December 18, 2007 at 4:20 pm

    That’s a little too reverse-Machiavelli for me. I don’t know what Reid was up to, but he got a lot of people livid by bringing the Intel bill to the floor instead of the Justice bill, and then incomprehensibly refusing to recognize Dodd’s hold. What does it gain him to infuriate his own base and just add to the ‘rolls over for Bush’ meme?

    Got it in the news, didn’t it?

    I was fine with your version of the story, until I saw Reid giving his speech live on C-Span. Reid is really cagey, and he’s played a lot of games on the floor with senate maneuvers. I can’t see why he would have brought it to the floor knowing how much opposition it was going to receive, if he wasn’t planning on using that opposition.

  185. 185.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 4:21 pm

    _Guilty feet got no rhythm_? Ooh. Them’s fighting words.

    Well I bought a ticket
    to the revolution
    and I cheered when the statues fell
    Everyone came
    to destroy what was rotten
    but they killed off what was good as well

  186. 186.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 4:22 pm

    Oh, it only takes one mention of “gut” to get me to break out the Colbert. John, this quote is AT LEAST two weeks old, but he is in reruns so whaddaya gonna do.

    Do you know you have more nerve endings in your gut than you have in your head? You can look it up. Now, I know some of you are going to say, “I did look it up, and that’s not true.” That’s ’cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut.

  187. 187.

    Shygetz

    December 18, 2007 at 4:23 pm

    Either way, it isn’t the Federal Gov’t’s place to make decisions for a land of grown adults, as if they were children.

    Bullshit. Unless you’re an anarchist, you’ve already agreed that it’s the government’s place to make decisions for a land of grown adults; we’re just haggling on how many decisions and what they should be.

    I’m not even close to being a conservative. I’m just not a liberal Democrat, either.

    Cassidy’s a unique rebel. He’s special.

  188. 188.

    Alan

    December 18, 2007 at 4:23 pm

    I haven’t switched Parties. But I’m seriously entertaining the idea so I can vote for Obama in the Primary. I originally thought I’d vote for Giuliani, but he seems to be almost as divisive as Hillary. And for the rest of the GOP, I’ve had enough of the pro-life movement. And how it’s corrupted the meaning of conservatism. Candidates like Fred Thompson seem to think its core is pro-life. I used to think its core was about individual freedom. But evidently that’s not the case. Eff the GOP.

  189. 189.

    Punchy

    December 18, 2007 at 4:24 pm

    As for Halliburton, they really are the best corporation for the job they’ve been hired to do.

    I guess if your job also involves nefarious corporate malfeasance in terms of overcharging, not completing bidded and non-bidded contracts, and outright stealing tax dollars…then, yes, they’re perfect.

    Shorter Cassidy–one gun for a solider, one million to Haliburton. What a company! So pro-solider!

  190. 190.

    tBone

    December 18, 2007 at 4:24 pm

    Two open threads, and I have to choose between:

    a) sweaty, heavy-breathing Scotch fetishism and uberdorky WoW-speak or
    b) earworms and Cassidy trying to get his troll on.

    Balloon Juice, you fail.

  191. 191.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 4:27 pm

    Two open threads, and I have to choose between:

    a) sweaty, heavy-breathing Scotch fetishism and uberdorky WoW-speak or
    b) earworms and Cassidy trying to get his troll on.

    Balloon Juice, you fail.

    Don’t like it? Fix it yourself![/opensource]

  192. 192.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 4:30 pm

    Guilty feet got no rhythm? Ooh. Them’s fighting words.

    Well I bought a ticket
    to the revolution
    and I cheered when the statues fell
    Everyone came
    to destroy what was rotten
    but they killed off what was good as well


    Don’t worry, be happy.

  193. 193.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 4:32 pm

    Aha Demi, you are at least demidorky since you recognized it as WoW-speak. I just said, “uh, this not English. John not accompanied by actual female presence at this time neither.”

    So change the subject tBone, isanOPENthread, what do you want to talk about? Sweaty, heavy-breathing steak fetishism, maybe? I have always thought the skirt steak was an underrated cut of meat.

  194. 194.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 4:34 pm

    Don’t like it? Fix it yourself!

    Yeah, elevate the discourse with some pithy/pious/pretentious punditry!

  195. 195.

    TheFountainHead

    December 18, 2007 at 4:35 pm

    The funniest thing I’ve read all day for SO many reasons, as quoted from CNN:

    “In a statement sent to CNN Tuesday afternoon, former President Bush’s chief of staff Jean Becker said that he “wholeheartedly supports the President of the United States, including his foreign policy. He has never discussed an ‘around-the-world-mission’ with either former President Bill Clinton or Sen. Clinton, nor does he think such a mission is warranted since he is proud of the role America continues to play around the world as the beacon of hope for freedom and democracy.”

  196. 196.

    JoyceH

    December 18, 2007 at 4:36 pm

    The Other Steve says:

    Got it in the news, didn’t it?

    Barely, and not it in any fashion that’s USEFUL! If he were doing it to get headlines for Dodd, he would have waited until the media actually focused on the fact that Dodd was blocking it and why. If he were doing it to get media attention on immunity, same thing. He pulled it too soon to get any real focus on the issue.

    As it is, all I’ve seen in the news is that “Reid pulled the FISA bill”, with very little detail about why, or what the objections to the bill were. I’ve been watching the news, and this was barely a blip. Just that the bill was pulled, with zero sound bites from the debate. The only people who even know what happened are the political junkies who read the blogs and watch CSPAN.

    I can only assume that Reid brought this bill to the floor because he wanted it to pass, believed it would pass easily, and gave up when he realized what a monkey-wrench Dodd had thrown into his schedule. WHY Reid wanted it to pass is a mystery, but I’m convinced that he did.

  197. 197.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 4:38 pm

    And for the coup de grace, a defense of Halliburton and KBR!

    You know, you really have to stop doing that. Defending Halliburton and KBR’s corporate culture, is not the same as recognizing that KBR does an excellent job of infrastructure support and services for military deployments. I would be hard pressed to find a corporation that could bring the same level of manpower and skilled labor that KBR does. This has nothing to do with the ethics, or lack of, in Halliburton. It’s a simple assessment of ability.

    Just because I don’t like Tom Brady doesn’t mean I can’t say he’s a good quarterback.

    Unless you’re an anarchist, you’ve already agreed that it’s the government’s place to make decisions for a land of grown adults; we’re just haggling on how many decisions and what they should be.

    I’ll go with you on this one. I believe the gov’t should be as minimally involved as possible. The power to make decisions, especially in the social arena, should rest in the individual and community hands, and at most the state gov’t.

  198. 198.

    tBone

    December 18, 2007 at 4:38 pm

    So change the subject tBone, isanOPENthread, what do you want to talk about?

    I vote we follow demi’s lead:

    Don’t like it? Fix it yourself![/opensource]

    and pick on the Linux hippies.

  199. 199.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 4:38 pm

    WHY Reid wanted it to pass is a mystery, but I’m convinced that he did.

    Follow the money!

  200. 200.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 4:40 pm

    Don’t worry, be happy.

    You give love
    a bad name…

  201. 201.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 4:42 pm

    Whats got you so jumpy?
    Why cant you sit still, yeah?
    Like gasoline you wanna pump me
    And leave me when you get your fill, yeah

    Every time I touch you honey you get hot
    I want to make love you never stop
    Come up for air you push me to the floor
    Whats been going on in that head of yours

    Chorus:
    Unskinny bop
    Just blows me away
    Unskinny bop, bop
    All night and day
    Unskinny bop, bop, bop, bop
    She just loves to play
    Unskinny bop nothin more to say

    You look at me so funny
    Love bite got you acting oh so strange
    You got too many bees in your honey
    Am I just another word in your page, yeah, yeah

    Every time I touch you honey you get hot
    I want to make love you never stop
    Come up for air you push me to the floor
    Whats been going on in that head of yours

    Chorus

    Youre sayin my love wont do ya
    But that aint love written on your face
    Well honey I can see right through ya
    Well see whose ridin who at the end of the race

    Solo

    Whats right
    Whats wrong
    Whats left
    What the hell is going on

  202. 202.

    The Other Steve

    December 18, 2007 at 4:42 pm

    I never said it was wrong. As for Halliburton, they really are the best corporation for the job they’ve been hired to do. KBR, has a very long history of reliability and infrastructure support for the military. I can’t say I wouldn’t have gone with them.

    Maybe we should take a step back. When is it a good idea to outsource services? What is your philosophy on that?

    Not just government, but private industry as well.

  203. 203.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 4:42 pm

    Aha Demi, you are at least demidorky

    Oh, yeah, you don’t know my background, do you? I am more than demidorky, I fear. I am *The Epitome of Dorkitude*.

    Ph33r my radical dorkicity!

  204. 204.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 4:42 pm

    and pick on the Linux hippies.

    You thought these threads were too geeky before?!? The combined effect of adding Linux would be Comic Store Guy from the Simpsons.

    Uh, Cass?

    recognizing that KBR does an excellent job of infrastructure support and services for military deployments.

    is not equal to

    a defense of Halliburton and KBR

    exactly how, now?

  205. 205.

    The Other Steve

    December 18, 2007 at 4:45 pm

    I can only assume that Reid brought this bill to the floor because he wanted it to pass, believed it would pass easily, and gave up when he realized what a monkey-wrench Dodd had thrown into his schedule. WHY Reid wanted it to pass is a mystery, but I’m convinced that he did.

    But why? They voted for cloture, and it passed easily… like 70 some to 20.

    Why did Reid pull the bill, since it was going to pass easily?

    More importantly, why did Reid give a speech in opposition to the bill if he wanted it to pass?

    I’m just saying your pat little explanations don’t match the facts.

  206. 206.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 4:45 pm

    “One eyed, one horned, flying purple people eater . . .”

  207. 207.

    Punchy

    December 18, 2007 at 4:49 pm

    I would be hard pressed to find a corporation that could bring the same level of manpower and skilled labor that KBR does

    Ah…what an argument. Hey, pay me 2 billion to supply 100 million worth of guns and grub and I’ll find a way to make sure you get everything you need. I may pocket the remaining 1.9 billion from John Taxpayer, but since you ate hot spaghetti and have all the ammo necessary to shoot Scary Brown People, mission accoplished! KBR must be GENIUS to able to supply $500 mill worth of supplies when being paid $5 billion. What a great company…feeding the soliders and all….that being the only metric at play here, apparently.

  208. 208.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 4:50 pm

    “One eyed, one horned, flying purple people eater . . .”

    This calls for EXTREMEM measures!

    Bay-bee Beluga, bay-bee beluga
    swimming in the deep blue sea
    Is your momma home?
    Is the water warm?

  209. 209.

    Billy K

    December 18, 2007 at 4:51 pm

    Sorry, late to the open thread.

    Cassidy, I swear I’m not trolling you, but let me get this straight… you said,

    Who? White, active duty, educated?

    So you’re military, correct?

    And you also said,

    call me crazy, being a grown man and all, but I really don’t like having people think they ought to decide what my best interests are.

    Isn’t the military based upon people who outrank you decide what is best for you?

  210. 210.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 4:52 pm

    exactly how, now?

    Well, for one, I don’t have to like someone/ something to acknowledge the effectiveness. As I tried to explain with the Tom Brady reference. I don’t like him, but I’d a be a fool not to recognize his talent and skill as a QB. Or, take Hillary. She’s not my candidate. She doesn’t espouse many of my beliefs. OTOH, if she wins the POTUS, I think she’d be an effective leader, more apt to actually accomplish her goals than the rest of the pack.

    So, regardless of my personal opinion about Halliburton, having worked directly with them on two deployments (Bosnia and Iraq), I recognize that KBR is very effective at what it does, in regards to infrastructure support and services.

    Maybe we should take a step back. When is it a good idea to outsource services? What is your philosophy on that?

    Well, for one, I believe that the military, any military, should always strive towards self sufficiency. Part of that is a strategic reason, in that shipping civilians to a war zone isn’t always a top notch decision. The second part is a slight case of elitism, have dealt with DOD civilians for a long time, I think that particular culture doesn’t breed a very high work ethic. But that’s anecdotal and not fair to judge the whole workforce.

    Unfortunately, the reality is that our military isn’t capable of being self-sufficient, with the same level of effectiveness, that a private company like KBR can bring. So while I don’t particularly like it or them, I do have to accept there overall involvement and recognize what they can do.

    Ethically, I would like to say I don’t support war-profiteering at all, but that’s an unreasonable position. Everything involved in what we do is war-profiteering in some way and we couldn’t function without the higher quality civilian goods. Unfortunately, we live in a world where a private company can take advantage of the military’s need for high quality equipment.

  211. 211.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 4:54 pm

    Bay-bee Beluga, bay-bee beluga
    swimming in the deep blue sea
    Is your momma home?
    Is the water warm?

    Now I gotta go postal on ya:

    I don’t know where she’s coming from, but I just met a lady named Dinah Moe Humm.

    or

    When I think about you, I touch myself.

    or how about

    Santa Baby, I really been an awful good girl.

    (I have that last one ricocheting around in my head.)

  212. 212.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 4:54 pm

    Isn’t the military based upon people who outrank you decide what is best for you?

    In some ways yes, but that isn’t entirely accurate. Unfortunately I’m not sure I can articulate better than that. If you’re not part of it, it’s difficult to explain.

    .that being the only metric at play here, apparently.

    KBR provides a lot more services than that.

  213. 213.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 4:54 pm

    I don’t have to like someone/ something to acknowledge the effectiveness. defend them

    Same. Thing.
    You don’t have to like someone to defend them either.

  214. 214.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 4:55 pm

    Isn’t the military based upon people who outrank you decide what is best for you?

    Huh? If it is, then their notion of best for their subordinates is based on a sick sense of humor.

    Seriously, the military is based on people of higher rank telling you what to do, based on what they think is best for their mission at any given time. In that regard, it’s not too different from the civilian world; it’s just that the military is more honest about it.

  215. 215.

    MNPundit

    December 18, 2007 at 4:57 pm

    What do you mean by populist BS?

    That Edwards is lying about his populism, or that populism is always BS in and of itself?

  216. 216.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 4:58 pm

    Now I gotta go postal on ya:

    I don’t know where she’s coming from, but I just met a lady named Dinah Moe Humm.

    or

    When I think about you, I touch myself.

    or how about

    Santa Baby, I really been an awful good girl.

    (I have that last one ricocheting around in my head.)

    Girl, you know it’s true.
    Ooh, Ooh, Ooh I love you.
    Yes, you know it’s true.
    Ooh, Ooh, Ooh I love you.
    Girl, you know it’s true.
    My love is for you.
    Girl, you know it’s true.
    My love is for you.

  217. 217.

    Billy K

    December 18, 2007 at 4:58 pm

    Seriously, the military is based on people of higher rank telling you what to do, based on what they think is best for their mission at any given time. In that regard, it’s not too different from the civilian world; it’s just that the military is more honest about it.

    Do they not tell you how to fold and press your clothes, what time to wake up, what time to go to bed, what to eat? I realize that is basic training, but that’s the point of basic training. To “mold” the soldier.

    Tell me if I’m wrong. My knowledge of the military is pretty sketchy. But my question remains. How can you say you don’t want someone telling you what to do when you’re in the military?

  218. 218.

    tBone

    December 18, 2007 at 4:59 pm

    You thought these threads were too geeky before?!? The combined effect of adding Linux would be Comic Store Guy from the Simpsons.

    Worst. Thread. Ever.

    Uh, Cass?

    recognizing that KBR does an excellent job of infrastructure support and services for military deployments.
    is not equal to

    a defense of Halliburton and KBR
    exactly how, now?

    I think the money quote is here:

    I would be hard pressed to find a corporation that could bring the same level of manpower and skilled labor that KBR does. This has nothing to do with the ethics, or lack of, in Halliburton. It’s a simple assessment of ability.

    Think Mussolini and trains . . .

    I don’t think Cassidy’s opinion is uncommon in the military, at least judging from my friends/family who are serving. They don’t have a choice in who supplies their services, so as long as their needs are being met they don’t really care. Can’t blame them for that.

  219. 219.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 5:00 pm

    Same. Thing.

    Awright then. You’ve just shown that objectivity is not part of your repertoire and I simply won’t discuss this with you anymore.

    You can take it as you will. In the end, it doesn’t effect me much.

  220. 220.

    Sam Hutcheson

    December 18, 2007 at 5:00 pm

    I read the LeftCoaster link. It all rings hollow and false to me. S/he seems passionate but his/her conclusions don’t follow for me. I can’t really take seriously someone who thinks Clinton is more electable than Obama. S/he clearly hasn’t looked at or is ignoring the negatives. I also find the argument “I can’t support Obama because he went negative so thus I’ll support Clinton” to be laughable on its face. Finally, the notion that Hillary Clinton has more “experience” than Obama is categorically false. One does not count First Lady as executive experience.

  221. 221.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 5:02 pm

    You’ve shown that English is not part of your repertoire. I said “defend”, and you very clearly defended them.

    And it’s “affect.”

  222. 222.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 5:03 pm

    Tell me if I’m wrong. My knowledge of the military is pretty sketchy. But my question remains. How can you say you don’t want someone telling you what to do when you’re in the military?

    Easy. We speak the same language, you know.

    There’s a huge difference between “being told to do something you don’t want to do” and “being told that something is being done in your best interest”.

  223. 223.

    Tamsyn

    December 18, 2007 at 5:04 pm

    RE: Hillary
    I also call women “chicks” at times. And I don’t like Hillary. I admire her for her ability to play the game just like any white man, but that’s also why I don’t like her. She is a politician with all that the word implies and is just as slimy as the rest of them.

  224. 224.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 5:04 pm

    I don’t think Cassidy’s opinion is uncommon in the military, at least judging from my friends/family who are serving. They don’t have a choice in who supplies their services, so as long as their needs are being met they don’t really care. Can’t blame them for that.

    I’m not even getting to the merits of his opinion. I’m trying to figure out how it’s not a defense. Aren’t there any other nitpicky-ass lawyers out there?

  225. 225.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 5:05 pm

    They don’t have a choice in who supplies their services, so as long as their needs are being met they don’t really care.

    It isn’t about caring. My personal beliefs always take a back seat to my professional ethics. I’ve said this before. So, whether I care or not doesn’t matter. I can still appreciate skill and effectiveness when I see it.

    Do they not tell you how to fold and press your clothes, what time to wake up, what time to go to bed, what to eat? I realize that is basic training, but that’s the point of basic training. To “mold” the soldier.

    Tell me if I’m wrong. My knowledge of the military is pretty sketchy. But my question remains. How can you say you don’t want someone telling you what to do when you’re in the military?

    You’re not wrong, there is just more to it than that. I don’t believe that the Federal Gov’t should be making personal decisions for private, free citizens. I think it is demeaning to a democratic republic for a select few to decide what is best. I think it insults the intelligence of grown adults who are free people.

    All the things you mention, in regards to the military, are different. They are part of a bigger picture. It isn’t about folding socks the right way. It’s about shutting down your ego and learning how to do something the way you are taught, if that makes sense. It really is apples and oranges. I get the parallel you’re trying to make and in some ways, I can see it making sense.

  226. 226.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 5:07 pm

    SO, to pick on the Free Software Zealots (not to be confused with the Open Source Advocates, there meing, of course a difference), I got a new box today. 16GB of RAM, quad proc, and it runs…Linux. (Spevifically, Gollumbuntu, the local flavor of Ubuntu.)

    It took me four hours to get it to boot for the first time. FOUR FREEKING HOURS. [punding head on table]

  227. 227.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 5:07 pm

    And it’s “affect.”

    Oh…it’s the all powerful GRAMMATICAL CORRECTION!

    gasp…wheeze…you got me…

  228. 228.

    Punchy

    December 18, 2007 at 5:07 pm

    Bay-bee Beluga, bay-bee beluga
    swimming in the deep blue sea
    Is your momma home?
    Is the water warm?

    Demi has me stumped. Is this song only cut on wax? What is this from, a 1956 Bing Crosby album?

    don’t think Cassidy’s opinion is uncommon in the military, at least judging from my friends/family who are serving. They don’t have a choice in who supplies their services, so as long as their needs are being met they don’t really care. Can’t blame them for that.

    Of course the soliders are thankful. Us civies are rightly peeved, however, when we find out they soaked all of us in overcharged food, overcharging fuel, and other assorted malfeasance.

    You’d be just as happy if your mom, in a nursing home, got great care, filet mignon, and free use of a Wii every day. But would you sit there and grin if they tried to bill you $10K a month for it? Just becuase they do their job doesn’t mean they’re a great company, if they’re extensively overcharging every single American to do it.

  229. 229.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 5:09 pm

    Just becuase they do their job doesn’t mean they’re a great company, if they’re extensively overcharging every single American to do it.

    Exactly. And just because they are shitty company, doesn’t mean they can’t do their job well.

  230. 230.

    Zifnab

    December 18, 2007 at 5:09 pm

    But why? They voted for cloture, and it passed easily… like 70 some to 20.

    Why did Reid pull the bill, since it was going to pass easily?

    More importantly, why did Reid give a speech in opposition to the bill if he wanted it to pass?

    I’m just saying your pat little explanations don’t match the facts.

    See: Specter, Arlen

    “I’m totally against this bill that strips you of constitutional rights by spending your tax dollars on a private contractor who reads your emails, spies on your grandparents, and gets you tazered while going through security at the airport. That is why I’m voting it out of committee so we can have a majority consensus on the Senate Floor.”

  231. 231.

    Zifnab

    December 18, 2007 at 5:10 pm

    Exactly. And just because they are shitty company, doesn’t mean they can’t do their job well.

    FAIL!

  232. 232.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 5:11 pm

    No, that would be a spelling/word choice correction, depending on the particular misapprehension you were laboring under at the time.

    Can’t get your troll on, can’t get your argument on, can’t get your geek on. I recommend continuing with the song lyrics. Those are pretty bad.

  233. 233.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 5:13 pm

    Jen, you’re falling back on the “I don’t have an argument” position. But, if it makes you feel better, go ahead. Doesn’t matter much to me as it is. As far as I’m concerned, you must have nothing better to say, that’s worth saying in public.

  234. 234.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 5:14 pm

    I’m totally against this bill that strips you of constitutional rights by spending your tax dollars on a private contractor who reads your emails, spies on your grandparents, and gets you tazered while going through security at the airport.

    Now, with added bonus: Sexual Assault! Free while supplies last.

  235. 235.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 5:15 pm

    Ever read a story about someone getting hurt or ripped off by some greedy businessman or corporation and think “There ought to be a law ..?”

    It used to be the law that if you thought your job was too dangerous, you should be more careful or find a new job. If you got hurt or killed, too bad for you and your dependents.

    We had tragedies like the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire, where management locked the fire escape doors to prevent theft. Those workers who weren’t burned alive died when they jumped from the 7th floor windows.

    If your bank collapsed due to mismanagement, you lost your savings. There were no laws regulating the safety of food or drugs, and nothing prohibiting pollution of rivers and lakes.

    Thanks to that evil fascist FDR, we got OSHA, FDIC, FHA, TVA, Social Security, Rural Electification, and a host of other horrible government programs.

    Conservatives opposed every one of them.

  236. 236.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 5:15 pm

    I recommend continuing with the song lyrics. Those are pretty bad.

    My heart is broken. Here I’m throwing out REALLY REALLY bad children’s songs, and Cassidy’s getting the earworm love.

    [sigh]

  237. 237.

    Cindrella Ferret

    December 18, 2007 at 5:16 pm

    Exactly. And just because they are shitty company thieving criminals, doesn’t mean they can’t do their job well.

    Fixed.

  238. 238.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 5:16 pm

    Demi, they’re just too old, we don’t know them. A compromise?

    Havin’ my baby…

  239. 239.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 5:17 pm

    My heart is broken. Here I’m throwing out REALLY REALLY bad children’s songs, and Cassidy’s getting the earworm love.

    Oh girl I think I love ya
    I’m always thinkin’ of ya
    I want ch-ya to know I do all for love
    I love it when we’re together
    Girl I need you forever
    and want you to know I do it all for love

  240. 240.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 5:18 pm

    Cassidy pulls out the lip-sync champions Milli Vanilli.

    Isn’t ironic (don’t you think?)

  241. 241.

    Punchy

    December 18, 2007 at 5:19 pm

    Exactly. And just because they are shitty company, doesn’t mean they can’t do their job well.

    uh…what?

  242. 242.

    The Other Steve

    December 18, 2007 at 5:22 pm

    Well, for one, I believe that the military, any military, should always strive towards self sufficiency.

    I think we can agree that an army marches on it’s stomach. That’s why self-sufficiency is so important, especially in the area of supply line logistics.

    Unfortunately, the reality is that our military isn’t capable of being self-sufficient, with the same level of effectiveness, that a private company like KBR can bring.

    How so? The question I asked was a philosophy on outsourcing which was applicable to private industry as well as the public sector.

    How is it that KBR can operate more effectively than the Army when it comes to operating a supply-line in a war zone? Does KBR have a lot of experience working with other militaries? Which ones? Aren’t you afraid that if the US were to go to war with these other militaries, that KBR’s loyalty would be in question?

    Doesn’t a military supply line uniquely effect the quality and performance of a military operation? Is it not a diffentiating factor on the battlefield that can directly influence the ability to win or lose?

    Ethically, I would like to say I don’t support war-profiteering at all, but that’s an unreasonable position. Everything involved in what we do is war-profiteering in some way and we couldn’t function without the higher quality civilian goods.

    Except that’s not the definition of war-profiteering.

  243. 243.

    tBone

    December 18, 2007 at 5:23 pm

    It isn’t about caring. My personal beliefs always take a back seat to my professional ethics. I’ve said this before. So, whether I care or not doesn’t matter. I can still appreciate skill and effectiveness when I see it.

    I wasn’t using “don’t care” in the sense of “Soldiers don’t care if Halliburton execs are dining on freshly poached babies and broiled puppies!” If you took it as a slight, it wasn’t intended that way.

  244. 244.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 5:25 pm

    Time to go nuclear:

    You can tell the world you never was my girl
    You can burn my clothes when I’m gone
    Or you can tell your friends just what a fool I’ve been
    And laugh and joke about me on the phone

    You can tell my arms to go back onto the phone
    You can tell my feet to hit the floor
    Or you can tell my lilps to tell my fingertips
    They won’t be reaching out for you no more

    But don’t tell my heart, my achy breaky heart
    I just don’t think it’d understand
    And if you tell my heart, my achy breaky heart
    He might blow up and kill this man
    Ooooooooo!

  245. 245.

    Cindrella Ferret

    December 18, 2007 at 5:26 pm

    Bay-bee Beluga, bay-bee beluga
    swimming in the deep blue sea
    Is your momma home?
    Is the water warm?

    Demi has me stumped. Is this song only cut on wax? What is this from, a 1956 Bing Crosby album?

    Raffi.

    Will someone please kill me now? Raffi… After this link I guess I deserve Raffi.

  246. 246.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 5:28 pm

    Havin’ my baby…

    No fair!

    Picked him up just South of Mobile //
    road with us to Memphis //
    Poppa would have shot him if he knew what he’d done…

    CHORUS

    Gypsies, tramps, and thieves
    We hear it form the people of the town
    [they call us]
    Gypsies, tramps and thieves,
    But every night all the men would come around
    ANd lay their money down

  247. 247.

    tBone

    December 18, 2007 at 5:30 pm

    You’d be just as happy if your mom, in a nursing home, got great care, filet mignon, and free use of a Wii every day. But would you sit there and grin if they tried to bill you $10K a month for it? Just becuase they do their job doesn’t mean they’re a great company, if they’re extensively overcharging every single American to do it.

    Pretty sure you’re not going to find a single instance of me defending Halliburton, anywhere, ever. Did you miss the Mussolini allusion?

  248. 248.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 5:32 pm

    The wildwood flower grew wild on the farm
    And we never knowed what it was called
    Some said it was a flower and some said it was weed
    I didn’t gave it much thought…
    One day I was out there talking to my brother
    Reached down for a weed to chew on
    Things got fuzzy and things got blurry
    And then everything was gone
    I Didn’t know what happened
    But I knew it beat the hell out of sniffin’ burlap

  249. 249.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 5:34 pm

    myiq…you’re gonna have to work hard to beat Raffi. Seriously. For a source of vile, saccharine, obnoxious earworms…music for children is unmatched.

  250. 250.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 5:36 pm

    No problem:

    I love you
    You love me
    We’re a happy family
    With a great big hug and
    A kiss from me to you
    Won’t you say you love me too?

  251. 251.

    tBone

    December 18, 2007 at 5:38 pm

    For a source of vile, saccharine, obnoxious earworms…music for children is unmatched.

    For my own sanity, I’m not going to scroll up and look for it, so tell me – has anyone broken out “Wheels on the Bus” yet?

    They go round and round, you know. And round, and round, and round . . .

  252. 252.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 5:39 pm

    myiq…Barney and Friends. Not bad (although I’m w/ tBone; _The wheels on the bus_ would have been a stronger entry.)

    Two words, then silence.

    Fred. Rogers.

  253. 253.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 5:41 pm

    Howzabout:

    On the good ship lollipop
    its a sweet trip to the candy shop
    where bon-bon’s play, on the sunny beach
    of peppermint bay.

  254. 254.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 5:44 pm

    Not bad. Shirley Temple. Not bad at all.

    _The Sound of Music_

  255. 255.

    tBone

    December 18, 2007 at 5:47 pm

    Fred. Rogers.

    Just for that, I hope he comes back as a zombie and uses his apocryphal Marine sharpshooting skills on you.

  256. 256.

    binzinerator

    December 18, 2007 at 5:50 pm

    And just because they are shitty company, doesn’t mean they can’t do their job well.

    The ends always justifies the means for the Cassidys of the world.

  257. 257.

    The Other Steve

    December 18, 2007 at 5:50 pm

    Anyway, I have to go. Someone else can make the point for me t Cassidy, that outsourcing is legalized corruption.

  258. 258.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 5:55 pm

    Cassidy pulls out the lip-sync champions Milli Vanilli.

    The last one was Color Me Badd.

    Seriously. For a source of vile, saccharine, obnoxious earworms…music for children is unmatched.

    Guess I should drop The Wiggles:

    Jump in the car
    And buckle up
    And we can ride the whole day long
    Jump in the car
    Put on my seat belt
    And we can ride the whole day long

    Ride into town
    Walk down the street
    Get back in the car
    And buckle up into my seat
    Yes that’s the way we do it
    Riding in our big red car

    CHORUS

    On holidays
    We go down to the beach
    Get back in the car
    And buckle up into my seat
    Yes that’s the way we do it
    Riding in our big red car

  259. 259.

    Zifnab

    December 18, 2007 at 5:56 pm

    Anyway, I have to go. Someone else can make the point for me t Cassidy, that outsourcing is legalized corruption.

    Cassidy doesn’t care about outsourcing or corruption. He just wants all the benefits of living in a healthy and stable society without actually having to pony up his fair share of the rent.

    Flu shots, sewage treatments, police and fire departments are all well and good so long as they are all free or provided optionally and at everyone’s leisure.

    As for you sorry saps who’ve got disabilities, natural disasters, or illegal immigrants taking your jobs – screw you! I’ve got mine, Jack.

  260. 260.

    Jake

    December 18, 2007 at 5:59 pm

    My heart is broken. Here I’m throwing out REALLY REALLY bad children’s songs, and Cassidy’s getting the earworm love.

    [sigh]

    ‘Specially for Demi:

    You are the sun
    You are the rain
    That makes my life this foolish game
    You need to know
    I love you so
    And I’d do it all again and again

    Need to go throw up now. But I’ll be back! [urp!]

  261. 261.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 6:01 pm

    Okay, you asked for it:

    Mmmbop, ba duba dop
    Ba du bop, ba duba dop
    Ba du bop, ba duba dop
    Ba du
    Yeah
    Mmmbop, ba duba dop
    Ba du bop, Ba du dop
    Ba du bop, Ba du dop
    Ba du
    Yeah

  262. 262.

    binzinerator

    December 18, 2007 at 6:04 pm

    Seriously, the military is based on people of higher rank telling you what to do, based on what they think is best for their mission at any given time. In that regard, it’s not too different from the civilian world; it’s just that the military is more honest about it.

    Not too different from the civilian world, eh? I’d hate to have to live in whatever civilian world you inhabit, where ever that is. Apparently it must not be too different from the military one.

    Sounds like you might have some nostalgia for those days of greater honesty with people of higher rank telling you what to do. That’s OK, that’s why some people reenlist. They miss the honesty.

  263. 263.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 6:05 pm

    Zif, you make a lot of assumptions. A lot of incorrect assumptions.

  264. 264.

    SGEW

    December 18, 2007 at 6:05 pm

    My brain! Why did I read through this entire thread?!?

    I have no one to blame but myself . . .

  265. 265.

    Punchy

    December 18, 2007 at 6:07 pm

    I love you
    You love me
    We’re a happy family
    With a great big hug and
    A kiss from me to you
    Won’t you say you love me too?

    Fucking BARNEY??

    /jaw hits floor…waves white flag….

  266. 266.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 6:07 pm

    Outsourcing as legalized corruption? Wow…that’s a new one to me.

    Outsourcing, though I prefer not to, is a simple matter of hiring the best candidate for a job that the military can no longer do for itself. Should we also manufacture our own weapons and bullets and body armor and tanks and Bradleys, etc.?

  267. 267.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 6:09 pm

    Zif, I dare you to go back and specifically cite where I said I’m against those things. I’d bet a month’s salary that you can’t.

  268. 268.

    binzinerator

    December 18, 2007 at 6:12 pm

    Speaking of Raffi and earworms, ever hear his “Bananaphone” song?

    The devastating, mind-controlling power of an earworm is amply demonstrated here.

    You know of course the most effective way to rid yourself of one is by passing it along, as if offering the parasite a better host to latch onto.

    Tag. You’re it!

  269. 269.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 6:13 pm

    Okay, you asked for it:

    Firehouse – Love Of A Lifetime Lyrics

    I guess the time was right for us to say
    We’d take our time and live our lives
    Together day by day
    We’ll make a wish and send it on a prayer
    We know our dreams can all come true
    With love that we can share

    With you I never wonder–will you be there for me
    With you I never wonder–you’re the right one for me
    I finally found the love of a lifetime
    A love to last my whole life through
    I finally found the love of a lifetime
    Forever in my heart
    I finally found the love of a lifetime

    With every kiss, our love is like brand-new
    And every star up in the sky
    Was made for me and you
    Still we both know that the road is long
    We know that we will be together
    Because our love is strong

    I finally found the love of a lifetime
    A love to last my whole life through
    I finally found the love of a lifetime
    Forever in my heart
    I finally found the love of a lifetime

    Don’t make me break out the Hoff.

  270. 270.

    JoyceH

    December 18, 2007 at 6:17 pm

    The Other Steve said:

    But why? They voted for cloture, and it passed easily… like 70 some to 20.

    Why did Reid pull the bill, since it was going to pass easily?

    I said he THOUGHT it was going to pass easily. Turns out he was wrong. Dodd could filibuster for 30 hours after the initial cloture vote, and could also filibuster the same amount of time on EVERY PROPOSED AMENDMENT. With enough backup, he could have kept the Senate tied up to Christmas and beyond, and there are other things that Reid wants to get done.

    This bill was stopped because Dodd stopped it. Not because Reid wanted it stopped. If he’d wanted it stopped, he could have recognized Dodd’s hold on the bill, like he’s recognized every single hold put on bills by Republicans, however frivolous the hold or popular the bill being held. He refused to recognize a hold for the first time in his tenure as Majority Leader. That can only be because Reid wanted this bill, in this form, to pass.

    Not the Judiciary version, but the Intelligence version WITH immunity. Like I say, I don’t know why, but for whatever reason, Reid wanted THIS bill passed, and and Dodd stopped him.

  271. 271.

    OniHanzo

    December 18, 2007 at 6:23 pm

    But don’t tell my heart, my achy breaky heart
    I just don’t think it’d understand
    And if you tell my heart, my achy breaky heart
    He might blow up and kill this man
    Ooooooooo!

    You. son. of. a. bitch.

  272. 272.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 6:33 pm

    I can do this all day:

    It was the dark of the moon on the sixth of june
    In a Kenworth pullin logs
    Cab-over pete with a reefer on
    And a jimmy haulin hogs
    We is headin for bear on i-one-oh
    bout a mile outta shaky town
    I says, pig pen, this heres the rubber duck.
    And Im about to put the hammer down.

    [chorus]
    cause we got a little convoy
    Rockin through the night.
    Yeah, we got a little convoy,
    Aint she a beautiful sight?
    Come on and join our convoy
    Aint nothin gonna get in our way.
    We gonna roll this truckin convoy
    cross the u-s-a.
    Convoy!

    By the time we got into tulsa town,
    We had eighty-five trucks in all.
    But theys a roadblock up on the cloverleaf,
    And them bears was wall-to-wall.
    Yeah, them smokies is thick as bugs on a bumper;
    They even had a bear in the air!
    I says, callin all trucks, this heres the duck.
    We about to go a-huntin bear.

    [chorus]
    cause we got a great big convoy
    Rockin through the night.
    Yeah, we got a great big convoy,
    Aint she a beautiful sight?
    Come on and join our convoy
    Aint nothin gonna get in our way.
    We gonna roll this truckin convoy
    cross the u-s-a.
    Convoy!

    Well, we rolled up interstate 44
    Like a rocket sled on rails.
    We tore up all of our swindle sheets,
    And left em settin on the scales.
    By the time we hit that chi-town,
    Them bears was a-gettin smart:
    Theyd brought up some reinforcements
    From the illinoise national guard.
    Theres armored cars, and tanks, and jeeps,
    And rigs of evry size.
    Yeah, them chicken coops was fulla bears
    And choppers filled the skies.
    Well, we shot the line and we went for broke
    With a thousand screamin trucks
    An eleven long-haired friends a jesus
    In a chartreuse micra-bus.

    Well, we laid a strip for the jersey shore
    And prepared to cross the line
    I could see the bridge was lined with bears
    But I didnt have a dog-goned dime.
    I says, pig pen, this heres the rubber duck.
    We just aint a-gonna pay no toll.
    So we crashed the gate doing ninety-eight
    I says let them truckers roll, 10-4.

    [chorus]
    cause we got a mighty convoy
    Rockin through the night.
    Yeah, we got a mighty convoy,
    Aint she a beautiful sight?
    Come on and join our convoy
    Aint nothin gonna get in our way.
    We gonna roll this truckin convoy
    cross the u-s-a.

  273. 273.

    Zifnab

    December 18, 2007 at 6:34 pm

    Zif, I dare you to go back and specifically cite where I said I’m against those things. I’d bet a month’s salary that you can’t.

    I’m too lazy to read your own posts back to you and let you play “That’s not what I ment” games. So keep your money.

  274. 274.

    Robert Johnston

    December 18, 2007 at 6:37 pm

    Like I say, I don’t know why, but for whatever reason, Reid wanted THIS bill passed, and and Dodd stopped him.

    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

    I’m fairly confident even without checking on the amounts that certain someones’ campaign donations, DSCC donations, etc. are at the root of Reid’s corruption.

  275. 275.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 6:42 pm

    myiq…

    I can’t drive //
    fifty-five

  276. 276.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 6:42 pm

    I’m too lazy to read your own posts back to you and let you play “That’s not what I ment” games. So keep your money.

    Fixed.

  277. 277.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 6:43 pm

    Theres a tear in my beer
    cause Im cryin for you,
    Dear you are on my lonely mind.
    Into these last nine beers
    I have shed a million tears.
    You are on my lonely mind
    Im gonna keep on sittin here
    Until Im petriified.
    And then maybe these tears
    Will leave my eyes.
    Theres a tear in my beer
    cause Im crying for you, dear
    You are on my lonely mind.

    2:
    Last night I walked the floor
    And the night before
    You are on my lonely mind.
    It seems my life is through
    And Im so doggone blue
    You are on my lonely mind.
    Im gonna keep on sittin here
    Till I cant move a toe
    And then maybe my heart
    Wont hurt me so.
    Theres a tear in my beer
    cause Im cryin for you, dear.
    You are on my lonely mind.

    3
    Lord, Ive tried and Ive tried
    But my tears I cant hide
    You are (were? ) on my lonely mind.
    All these blues that Ive found
    Have really got me down
    You are on my lonely mind
    Im gonna keep on drinkin till I cant even think
    Cause in the last week I aint slept a wink
    Theres a tear in my beer
    Cause Im crying for you dear
    You are on my lonely mind.

  278. 278.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 6:45 pm

    I can’t drive //

    fifty-five

    If that’s all you got then I should stop.

    NOT!


    In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida, honey,
    Don’t you know that I love you?
    In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida, baby,
    Don’t you know that I’ll always be true?

  279. 279.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 6:47 pm

    Theres a tear in my beer

    Thppppt!

    Tiny bubbles (tiny bubbles)
    In the wine (in the wine)
    Make me happy (make me happy)
    Make me feel fine (make me feel fine)

    Tiny bubbles (tiny bubbles)
    Make me warm all over
    With a feeling that I’m gonna
    Love you till the end of time

  280. 280.

    binzinerator

    December 18, 2007 at 6:49 pm

    Outsourcing, though I prefer not to, is a simple matter of hiring the best candidate for a job that the military can no longer do for itself.

    You mean jobs that involve the unprovoked slaughter of unarmed civilians without legal consequences? Too bad the US Army can’t do that. Naturally, they’ve outsourced that kind of activity to best candidates like Blackwater.

  281. 281.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 6:50 pm

    Feuding and fussing and a-fighting
    Sometimes it gets to be exciting
    Don’t like them ornery neighbors down by the creek
    We’ll be plumb out of neighbors next week
    Grandma, poor old grandma
    Why’d they have to shoot poor grandma
    She lies ‘neath the clover
    Someone caught her bending over
    Picking up a daisy
    Feuding and fussing and a-fighting
    This is a wrong that needs a righting
    Let’s get that funeral service over
    So then we can start in a-feuding again

  282. 282.

    Zifnab

    December 18, 2007 at 6:52 pm

    Cassidy Says:

    I’m too lazy to read your own posts back to you and let you play “That’s not what I ment” games. So keep your money.

    Fixed. My mom

    Fixed.

  283. 283.

    rawshark

    December 18, 2007 at 6:54 pm

    Some of my favorite jobs were jobs where I worked for ‘strong women’ and I’m also turned off by Clinton. FWIW.

  284. 284.

    bob

    December 18, 2007 at 6:55 pm

    Damn, Cassidy is almost as smart as Doughbob. Such powerful arguments. I guess I really am a totalitarian fascist who wants to tie everyone down and make them smoke a dime hit of LSD.

  285. 285.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 6:55 pm

    I’ve warned all my friends and neighbors
    Better watch out for yourselves
    They should never give a license
    To a man who drives a sleigh and plays with elves

    Grandma got run over by a reindeer
    Walkin’ home from our house, Christmas eve
    You can say there’s no such thing as Santa
    But as for me and Grandpa, we believe!

  286. 286.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 6:59 pm

    (to the tune of Black Sabbath – Iron Man)

    I am Santa Claus!
    Ho! Ho! Ho! Ho! Ho!
    Flying through the snow –
    Can you hear him? Ho! Ho! Ho!
    He’s so full of cheer:
    Only has to work one day a year.

    Children in their beds –
    Visions of sugarplums fill their heads.
    So many kids out there –
    Santa must be a billionaire!

    Red suit, boots of black.
    Big sack of toys hangin’ off his back.
    How much does he weigh?
    How do the reindeer pull his sleigh?
    No body sees him… as he travels the world…
    Leaving his presents… for the good boys and girls.

    Ho! Ho! Ho! Ho! Ho!
    Sees every move you make –
    Better be good for goodness’ sake.
    Leave him cookies and beer –
    He’ll be back to your house first next year.

    I am Santa Claus!
    Ho! Ho! Ho! Ho! Ho!

  287. 287.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 7:01 pm

    It’s okay to admit you’re wrong Zif. I won’t think less of you.

  288. 288.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 7:05 pm

    (to the tune of Black Sabbath – Iron Man)

    I am Santa Claus!

    Wow. Just…wow.

    That is TRULY vile.

    [/speechless]

  289. 289.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 7:17 pm

    Cass, while you do fill a much-needed void around here, I say without any trace of irony whatsoever, if you were to go someplace such as RedState or Free Republic or Rusty Shackleford, you would be an intellectual powerhouse. I mean that sincerely and honestly. I personally guarantee that no one will correct your spelling.

    I’m jus sayin’.

  290. 290.

    Jake

    December 18, 2007 at 7:19 pm

    Don’t go breaking my heart
    I couldn’t if I tried
    Honey if I get restless
    Baby you’re not that kind

    Don’t go breaking my heart
    You take the weight off me
    Honey when you knocked on my door
    I gave you my key

    Nobody knows it
    When I was down
    I was your clown
    Nobody knows it
    Right from the start
    I gave you my heart
    I gave you my heart

    So don’t go breaking my heart
    I won’t go breaking your heart
    Don’t go breaking my heart

    And nobody told us
    `Cause nobody showed us
    And now it’s up to us babe
    I think we can make it

    So don’t misunderstand me
    You put the light in my life
    You put the sparks to the flame
    I’ve got your heart in my sights

  291. 291.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 7:20 pm

    Okay, maybe I’m channeling Michael D. here, but has anyone ever gotten a black screen of death on an iPod? Charges & syncs just like normal, comes to life, then I unplug it and black screen of death.

    If it doesn’t revive I’ll never be able to listen to my Weird Al polka album.

  292. 292.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 7:20 pm

    Hey, Jen. Cass is the first real middle-right type we’ve had in a long time who’s been able to pull his or her own weight. Don’t you dare encourage him to move somewhere else!

    (Besides, he wouldn’t be an intellectual powerhouse. He’d just get banned.)

  293. 293.

    KevinA

    December 18, 2007 at 7:22 pm

    You refer to yourself as a “chick” and your instinctively repulsed by Hillary? There are at least two ways of looking at that statment: 1) you are impersonating a female or 2) you are too young to understand what women have went through and still are going through to understand how silly your statement was.

    Liberal has it right. Liberal gives reasons not “instincts.”

    Please. Would Boomers, like you, get the fuck over yourselves already? Note: Its not 1968 anymore. Move on.

  294. 294.

    Zifnab

    December 18, 2007 at 7:23 pm

    Eventually, as all the pet liberal projects get tried out, and fail while stomping on individual rights for the “greater good”, the Republican power base will come back as it returns to Republican values (and farther away from the social conservative set).

    Translation: “pet liberal projects” (social security. medicare/medicaid. The EPA. The SEC. The FDA. The Department of Education.) aren’t doing what I want them to do. Ergo, they have failed. Ergo, the Republican Party will wash them away because of their lack of popularity.

    Core Republican values, prior to the hijack and rape by the social conservatives, was all about maintaining an individual’s rights.

    Individual Rights? I remember a great deal of talk about State’s Rights and the rights of the moneyed or affluent. But not much about individual rights. As far back as the Civil Rights Era of the 60s, I don’t remember conservatives lining up in support of desegregation or equal access to public works and services. They did embrace the “if you can’t get ahead in America its because you’re an inferior, lazy, drug-addled, godless failure” meme on multiple occations when they weren’t telling us about how we had to submit to McCarthy Era witch hunts to protect us from Communists or Reagen Era blacklists to protect us from Ultra-Liberals.

    Well sure, I think social conservatives are for the greater bad. If I had to pick between a social conservative and a liberal, I’d pick anarchy and insurgency.

    Cause I’ve got mine. Jack.

    Liberal policies sound all authoritarianism-ally to me. call me crazy, being a grown man and all, but I really don’t like having people think they ought to decide what my best interests are.

    And for those of you who think you need public services like clean water or affordable health care or lead-free toys or job security, perhaps you need to grab your cajones and stop acting like pussy little children. If you want all those things, then go out and get them. Me, I got the right to vote by being not born a woman before 1912 or a black man living in rural Georgia. If you want similar rights, you should do the same thing I did.

    I’ll go with you on this one. I believe the gov’t should be as minimally involved as possible. The power to make decisions, especially in the social arena, should rest in the individual and community hands, and at most the state gov’t.

    Indeed, the individual and the community. And who runs the individual? Why, that would be the individual’s boss. The guy who controls whether the individual picks up a paycheck every other Friday. And who controls the community? Why, that would be the people with all the money.

    Ok, so there you go Cassidy. Chew on that and be proud. Never say I didn’t back up my bull without proper references.

  295. 295.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 7:34 pm

    I know, Demi, he’s aaaight, it certainly would be boring without him and I’m not trying to say he’s not welcome. It’s kind of a test, though, see? Because if you can last more than 14 seconds reading Free Republic, you will either leap headlong into the void, renounce the Republican party forever and be reborn as a sensible person, or claw out your own eyes using your flash drive and sheer grit. I would be kind of interested to hear “um, yeah, I’ve tried that, I kinda prefer it over here.”

  296. 296.

    rawshark

    December 18, 2007 at 7:42 pm

    I just copied the lyrics to I Am Santa Claus and sent them to a friend in an email without attributing the song to Cassidy. Am I gonna die?

  297. 297.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 7:43 pm

    In case anyone was going to give me free tech support on my iPod, worry not. Turns out if it’s set on “hold” and it’s off, it won’t turn on. D’oh!

  298. 298.

    Doubting Thomas

    December 18, 2007 at 7:45 pm

    Outsourcing, though I prefer not to, is a simple matter of hiring the best candidate for a job that the military can no longer do for itself.

    I don’t understand why the military can’t take care of itself. It has more money that all the worlds Army’s combined. What they accomplished during WWII was amazing. They took a reduced tattered armed force and in just 4 short years made it the victor and envy of the world. Of course, they had leaders like FDR, Eisenhower and Marshall who seem to be non existent today. I can’t fathom why anyone on active duty thinks that the US military can’t take care of itself. Eisenhower warned of the Military Industrial complex that Cassidy is now a member of. I think he’d be horrified at how that military is run now. The founding fathers did not want a standing army. I think in times of war we should have a draft. It gets the entire country involved to do what’s right for the security of our nation and brings about the quickest victory possible. It seems our current military is in business for our Corporate masters only, no concerns for the safety of the US. And to hear an active duty member admit that the US military cannot feed its own men or protect our leaders (Blackwater anyone?) without bringing over private contractors who get paid 10 times what the soldier makes is a travesty. I think that discounts the sacrifice a soldier makes (admit it, they give up their constitutional rights when they enter the service). I find it very sad and troubling.

    In case I’m not not clear, I want to say that I am in no way trashing Cassidy. I believe him when he says the military can longer do the job itself. I just find it sad.

  299. 299.

    bob

    December 18, 2007 at 7:49 pm

    Doubting Thomas, Cassidy is full of shit. Cooks cook. Truck drivers drive. Laundry people launder. Construction people construct. Hiring a for profit company to do what used to be done by GIs is TOTAL bullshit. Fuck KBR. They ain’t shit. They ain’t competent. They are costing us LOTS of money. They are committing crimes for which they cannot be held accountable. ANYONE who thinks KBR is doing a good job can go fuck themselves. If you are a Bush supporter, sorry but fuck you into eternity.

  300. 300.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 7:55 pm

    Now that the iPod is back online, I’m listening to some political ads from NH and IA from the Post politics podcast. They are unreal.

    Shorter:
    Ron Paul: Deck the Halls. Yes, his family is singing Deck the Halls. That’s the ad.

    Mike Huckabee: Merry Christmas — no politics here, folks, just 200 proof Jesus.

    Mitt Romney: I’ve never pardoned a criminal in my life, whereas Mike Huckabee frequently invites them to have at his wife.

    Rudy Guiliani: The government has been talking about ending immigration for years. [He really did say immigration without the illegal qualifier.]

    John McCain: “Send a big message: ‘Let our troops win.'” That is an unadulterated quotation.

  301. 301.

    Doubting Thomas

    December 18, 2007 at 7:55 pm

    Thanks, bob. I am not in the service so don’t really know the state of things currently, and (naively, I guess) thought a serviceman would be truthful about their experience. I would hope that our military leaders are very troubled by the outsourcing and contracting. I know they can’t say publicly what they really think, so it’s hard to know who’s telling the truth and who’s not.

    It still seems they’ve lost their way.

  302. 302.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 7:58 pm

    Grandma got run over by a reindeer

    Okay, that one stung a little bit. Let me catch my breath and I’ll be back.

  303. 303.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 8:01 pm

    Gonna find my baby, gonna hold her tight
    gonna grab some afternoon delight.
    My motto’s always been; when it’s right, it’s right.
    Why wait until the middle of a cold dark night.
    When everything’s a little clearer in the light of day.
    And you know the night is always gonna be there any way.

    Sky rockets in flight. Afternoon delight. Afternoon delight.

    Thinkin’ of you’s workin’ up my appetite
    looking forward to a little afternoon delight.
    Rubbin’ sticks and stones together makes the sparks ingite
    and the thought of rubbin’ you is getting so exciting.

    Sky rockets in flight. Afternoon delight. Afternoon delight.

    Started out this morning feeling so polite
    I always though a fish could not be caught who wouldn’t bite
    But you’ve got some bait a waitin’ and I think I might try nibbling
    a little afternoon delight.

    Sky rockets in flight. Afternoon delight. Afternoon delight.

    Please be waiting for me baby when I come around.
    We could make a lot of lovin’ ‘for the sun goes down.

    Sky rockets in flight. Afternoon delight. Afternoon delight.

  304. 304.

    jcricket

    December 18, 2007 at 8:02 pm

    Thanks to that evil fascist FDR, we got OSHA, FDIC, FHA, TVA, Social Security, Rural Electification, and a host of other horrible government programs.

    Conservatives opposed every one of them.

    Thank you for posting this. Everyone is too young to remember how fucked up things used to be for the average person before these Democratic policies came around. Social Security alone has lifted something like 1/5th of the elderly population out of poverty (every year).

    Republicans, unfortunately, have pushed the “center” so far to the right that we’re now actually spending political cycles arguing about repealing the estate tax to give zillions to 0.1% of the population. When an estimated 20% of the population is fucking borrowing money to pay their heating bills this winter.

    Sensible policies to address the growing inability of the poor to become not-poor, and the middle-class to stay above water are branded as “communism” because the social cons and “drown the government” idiots shouted the loudest over the last 30 years and we did nothing to stop them.

    Just as an example of how fucked up things are, I would fucking kill to have a “conservative” like Sarkozky as our President. He’s to the left of probably everyone running except Kucinich.

    The rest of the world is passing us by while we debate whether the earth is 7000 years old, whether there’s a “war on christmas”, what type of “mildly less fucked up but not a real solution” healthcare we should have, how to give more money to those that already have it and lower the oversight and regulation of our already rapacious corporate class.

    Fucking Republicans are to blame for actively creating this situation, but Dems need to stop cowering and realize its only through their complicity that it got this bad. Enough is enough.

  305. 305.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 8:05 pm

    Myiq, fail! Due to positive/humorous connotations from Anchorman.

  306. 306.

    jcricket

    December 18, 2007 at 8:08 pm

    Outsourcing, though I prefer not to, is a simple matter of hiring the best candidate for a job that the military can no longer do for itself.

    You should never outsource your core functions/competitive advantage. That our military, or government agencies, can no longer do some of their core functions effectively is not a reason to insist on more outsourcing. It’s a carrion call to fix those parts of the government, through more funding, efficiency, reorganization, additional hiring, whatever.

    For example, the answer to decreased ability for the IRS to obtain delinquent taxes is not to have collection agencies start harassing customers. It’s to hire and train more IRS agents (who the stats show can do the job better, for less money and with fewer complications, thus netting the government more).

    Conservative aims are served by having a fucked up government. They underfund or mismanage everything they touch in government because they don’t believe it can work. Then they say, “See, government sucks, the private sector should do this.” Look, it’s the magic self-fulfilling prophecy!

    The telling thing is that even when the private sector does worse (see charter schools) the right refuses to admit that government is not the problem.

    Democrats are far, far, far from perfect, but they believe government has a place. The other party does not, and therefore they should lose their place at the table having a discussion about government.

  307. 307.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 8:10 pm

    jcricket, you are kicking ass and taking names and I agree with everything you say except that I think it’s clarion call and not carrion call, but given the vulture like nature of the people we are talking about, I think it’s a fitting malaprop.

  308. 308.

    bob

    December 18, 2007 at 8:12 pm

    jcricket, my operating principle is: Many, but not all Democrats suck. ALL republicans suck. This has pretty much been true my whole life, and looking back to before WWI, it was true then, too. I could go into detail, but I think you know what I mean.

  309. 309.

    rachel

    December 18, 2007 at 8:13 pm

    Gollumbuntu? What the hell kind of dork names a distro “Gollumbuntu?”

  310. 310.

    myiq2xu

    December 18, 2007 at 8:16 pm

    Myiq, fail! Due to positive/humorous connotations from Anchorman

    WTF? Is that some DC Comics superhero?

  311. 311.

    bob

    December 18, 2007 at 8:17 pm

    By the bye, I have a place near Camp Pendleton. Being a former serviceman, I don’t have a problem with other servicemen. Every time I speak to a Marine, I ask him if he has been to Operation FUBAR. Without exception, the ones that have been over there have NOTHING good to say about Bush.

  312. 312.

    Conservatively Liberal

    December 18, 2007 at 8:20 pm

    Gonna find my baby, gonna hold her tight
    Gonna grab some afternoon delight
    My motto’s always been ‘when it’s right, it’s right’
    Why wait until the middle of a cold dark night?
    When everything’s a little clearer in the light of day
    And we know the night is always gonna be there any way

    Thinkin’ of you’s workin’ up my appetite
    Looking forward to a little afternoon delight
    Rubbin’ sticks and stones together makes the sparks ingite
    And the thought of lovin’ you is getting so exciting
    Sky rockets in flight
    Afternoon delight
    Afternoon delight
    Afternoon delight

    Started out this morning feeling so polite
    I always though a fish could not be caught who wouldn’t bite
    But you’ve got some bait a waitin’ and I think I might try nibbling
    A little afternoon delight
    Sky rockets in flight
    Afternoon delight
    Afternoon delight
    Afternoon delight

    Please be waiting for me, baby, when I come around
    We could make a lot of lovin’ ‘for the sun goes down

    Thinkin’ of you’s workin’ up my appetite
    Looking forward to a little afternoon delight
    Rubbin’ sticks and stones together makes the sparks ingite
    And the thought of lovin’ you is getting so exciting
    Sky rockets in flight
    Afternoon delight
    Afternoon delight
    Afternoon delight

    Afternoon delight!

    ========

    Cassidy, you bet KBR is equipped with the manpower they need to get the job done in Iraq. Ask the woman they drugged and raped about their manpower, she has experienced their manpower firsthand. Yup, top quality company with only the best that ‘merica has to offer. With manpower like that in Iraq, we sure are teaching the Iraqi people what democracy is all about.

    Though I am glad to see that you escaped the insane asylum and are posting again. You are the next best thing to Darrell.

  313. 313.

    Jen

    December 18, 2007 at 8:20 pm

    WTF? Is that some DC Comics superhero?

    Whoa now, just because I like MST3K I’m not THE dorkiest woman alive….

    No, it was a pretty mainstream comedy movie? With Will Ferrell and Paul Rudd?

  314. 314.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 8:26 pm

    I just copied the lyrics to I Am Santa Claus and sent them to a friend in an email without attributing the song to Cassidy. Am I gonna die?

    It’s by Bob Rivers. Check it out.

    I would be kind of interested to hear “um, yeah, I’ve tried that, I kinda prefer it over here.”

    Not my cup of tea. I don’t like extremist, regardless of political bent. Unlike zifnab’s assumptions, I have more in common with Democrats. I do believe in certain social aspects of the Democrat platform, just not to the point of being liberal.

    I don’t understand why the military can’t take care of itself.

    Because in some part, we are the only thing that keeps some economies afloat, especially in the states. Look at any military base and the tiny town next to it, with no industry or any marketable goods or service.

    Of course, they had leaders like FDR, Eisenhower and Marshall who seem to be non existent today.

    We still have those leaders, just not wearing the same rank. The last general who had our back got fired by Rumsfeld.

    DT, pay no attention to Bob. Regardless of his personal opinions about Halliburton or KBR, there is no way he can say they don’t perform their function well. As I stated above, I have been through 2 deployments with them as our support and they do an outstanding job of it.

    That our military, or government agencies, can no longer do some of their core functions effectively is not a reason to insist on more outsourcing.

    I agree completely. If I had my way, we’d be back towards that. But, that would also mean a larger military, so I’m sure you can see the problems presented. I stated before, that I’d prefer to not outsource, but in this day and age, it must be done. That’s the reality of it. I don’t think civilians belong in a warzone period. It’s hard enough on those of us trained to do that.

  315. 315.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 8:28 pm

    Ask the woman they drugged and raped about their manpower, she has experienced their manpower firsthand.

    Wow, so every KBR employee is a rapist? I guess that makes every black male a drugged out, homey, and a shiftless father…according to your logic anyway.

  316. 316.

    MJ

    December 18, 2007 at 8:28 pm

    Jen Hillary is still the most likely Dem primary winner and she has a lot of troubles.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071218/NATION/42189178/1001

  317. 317.

    bob

    December 18, 2007 at 8:34 pm

    Cassidy, I was in the military. NOTHING KBR is doing couldn’t be done for less by the Seabees or messcooks. I don’t give a damn how many deployments you went on. A for profit corporation cannot do things cheaper than a GI. Maybe we should just hire Blackwater instead of an having an army. For crissakes whatever happened to KP? We need Halliburgers with cheese? Bullshit.

  318. 318.

    bob

    December 18, 2007 at 8:36 pm

    Or is the Quartermaster Corps just another big gubmint program?

  319. 319.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 8:40 pm

    A for profit corporation cannot do things cheaper than a GI

    This is that whole read what I said thing. I never said they did it cheaper, or better. I said they are doing a good job. I also believe that the current state of the Army is not up to the level of service KBR provides. It wouldn’t take much to get there, but that’s the state of the military today.

  320. 320.

    WE ALL FALL DOWN

    December 18, 2007 at 8:49 pm

    HUCKABEE SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED THAT CHRISTMAS IS THE CELEBRATION OF THE BIRTH OF CHRIST AND THAT DIDN’T GO TOO FAR?

    But, but… Christmas ISN’T about the birth of Christ, it’s Christ’s Mass, that means a celebration of death, what the heck do you think MASS is?

    It was never about the birth of Jesus, it’s always been about his death.

  321. 321.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 8:55 pm

    Gollumbuntu? What the hell kind of dork names a distro “Gollumbuntu?”

    Well, remember that I don’t ever actually use the name of my employer here. Internally, our tools teams name all of our custom tools after the company — and so I mimic that. We really do have a custom form of Ubuntu that engineers run on their workstations, as well as an even more customized version of the os/userland that we run on our servers, and, yes, both have dorky names, although, I confess, not *quite* that dorky.

  322. 322.

    bob

    December 18, 2007 at 9:10 pm

    Cassidy, you are so full of shit. The military has in the past had MOS’s or ratings for EVERY job KBR might do. Doing a GOOD JOB?????????? Bullshit. If they can’t do it better for less it isn’t a good job now, is it? I’ve read every one of your arguments and every one gets shot down. You’re just full of shit. Sorry.

  323. 323.

    Cain

    December 18, 2007 at 9:10 pm

    Jeez, all those songs and not one of you did Twisted Sister “We’re not gonna take it!”. You’d think that would be the first one out the door!

    I just copied the lyrics to I Am Santa Claus and sent them to a friend in an email without attributing the song to Cassidy. Am I gonna die?

    Congress wants a copyright czar or something like that in the justice department. They’ll send you to the “pound me in the ass” federal prison for what you’ve done! Fucking crook!

    cain

  324. 324.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 9:26 pm

    I’ve read every one of your arguments

    Yeah, that’s obvious. [/snark]

    Okay, I’ll put this in Marine speak. KBR has been contracted to do a job. They are very effective at said job. They are actually quite good at it.

    You will find nothing else claimed by me up above. Your “argument” is nothing but strawmen.

  325. 325.

    Cassidy

    December 18, 2007 at 9:27 pm

    Jeez, all those songs and not one of you did Twisted Sister “We’re not gonna take it!”.

    I excluded it because it was covered by Bif Naked.

  326. 326.

    bago

    December 18, 2007 at 9:29 pm

    Bow Down!

  327. 327.

    John S.

    December 18, 2007 at 10:15 pm

    Okay, I’ll put this in Marine speak. KBR has been contracted to do a job. They are very effective at said job. They are actually quite good at it.

    Sounds more like bullshit Cassidy-speak.

    Halliburton Unit’s Work in Iraq Is Called ‘Poor’

    Serious cost overruns and “poor performance” have plagued the Halliburton Company’s continuing $1.2 billion contract to repair Iraq’s vital southern oil fields, a new State Department report says.

    Documents Trace KBR Billing Problems

    In one case, the government’s contracting officials reported that KBR attempted to inflate its cost estimates by paying a supplier more than it was due. In another, KBR cut its cost estimates in half after it was pressed on its true expenses. In a third, KBR billed for work performed by the Iraqi oil ministry.

    Thar’s some awesome job they are doing!

  328. 328.

    John S.

    December 18, 2007 at 10:23 pm

    More indication of how good a job KBR is doing:

    Ex-KBR Workers Charged in Bribe Scheme

    James Sellman and Wallace Ward, formerly of Houston-based Kellogg Brown and Root, Inc., face charges for allegedly conspiring to defraud the Department of Defense through a bribery scheme involving fuel shipments they received at Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan.

    But what’s a little skimming here and there? KBR does their job so well and so cost-effectively that it doesn’t diminish the awesomeness they are doing.

    KBR, Inc., the global engineering and construction giant, won more than $16 billion in U.S. government contracts for work in Iraq and Afghanistan from 2004 to 2006—far more than any other company, according to a new analysis by the Center for Public Integrity. In fact, the total dollar value of contracts that went to KBR—which used to be known as Kellogg, Brown, and Root and until April 2007 was a subsidiary of Halliburton—was nearly nine times greater than those awarded to DynCorp International, a private security firm that is No. 2 on the Center’s list of the top 100 recipients of Iraq and Afghanistan reconstruction funds.

    Heckuva job, KBR!

  329. 329.

    Anne Laurie

    December 18, 2007 at 10:24 pm

    My favorite candidate was Chris Dodd, but he has less chance of winning than the Dolphins do of winning the Super Bowl… the populist BS from Edwards doesn’t really motivate me (although at a core level, I agree with Edwards- the system needs to be destroyed. I just don’t think he is the one to do it)…

    Jeez, John, six weeks as a Democrat and you’re already torn between the “Yeah, but is Candidate X… electable???” meme and the “I won’t vote for Candidate Y because his *exact* positions do not ally with mine to a degree otherwise only required of bone-marrow donors” purity cadre! Most of us cradle-Dems take *years* to reach such pinnacles!

    Meanwhile, just do like the rest of us — vote for Dodd in the primaries, and if he doesn’t last past March, start hammering on Edwards to pick up his issues. Goddess knows who we’ll be voting for on the Dem ticket (probably while holding our noses) next November, but at least we can agree that any of the current (D) candidates would be an improvement over the current (R) ones. Much less the Oval Office Occupant also known as Commander Codpiece.

  330. 330.

    jcricket

    December 18, 2007 at 10:25 pm

    jcricket, you are kicking ass and taking names and I agree with everything you say except that I think it’s clarion call and not carrion call, but given the vulture like nature of the people we are talking about, I think it’s a fitting malaprop.

    Grammar, hobgoblin of little minds and fascists! BTW, I am kicking ass because I’m all out of bubble gum.

    jcricket, my operating principle is: Many, but not all Democrats suck. ALL republicans suck. This has pretty much been true my whole life, and looking back to before WWI, it was true then, too. I could go into detail, but I think you know what I mean.

    I read an argument recently explaining why blacks and unions vote Dem year after year even though the Dems don’t give them a lot of what they want. It’s because they perceive the Republicans as actively hostile to their interests. While I don’t think this captures everything, it’s fucking right on as to why it’ll be a cold day in hell before I vote for someone with an “R” next to their name or who enables the Republicans to take more control/seats (hello Nader).

    Didn’t used to feel this way (voted for the occasional Republican my first 10 years voting), but Republicans long since left the land of the “reasonable opposition” and entered the territory of so committed to fucking up America that they must be opposed at any cost.

    And yes, I hate when Dems enable the Republicans by voting for the bankruptcy bill, contemplating retroactive immunity for telecoms, and so on. But that’s absolutely nothing to the destruction Republicans are hell (ha) bent on continuing. It’s almost like you can replace the word “government” with “America” in Grover Norquist’s famous quote and get their real agenda.

  331. 331.

    Blue Jean

    December 18, 2007 at 10:38 pm

    Cheer up, John. At least you’re not slamming Hillary because-gasp!-she has the audacity to age.

  332. 332.

    scarshapedstar

    December 18, 2007 at 10:39 pm

    I’m instinctively repulsed by anyone who tries to censor my video games, i.e Hillary and Holy Joe.

    I don’t believe Joe has a vagina. I’d like him better if he did.

  333. 333.

    demimondian

    December 18, 2007 at 10:45 pm

    So, jcricket (and others from the evergreen state)…would you consider backing someone who primaried Murray from the left?

  334. 334.

    bob

    December 18, 2007 at 11:24 pm

    Ok then I’ll put it in Nav speak you idiot fucking jarhead: what the fuck on earth would our country be doing contracting a job to a company that you KNOW FUCKING WELL IS DOING A SHITTY JOB YOU FUCKING LYING SACK OF SHIT. If they do it for too much money it is FRAUD. Dumbass. And our glorious fucking leader shouldn’t be making no bid contracts. Shit for brains. As a marine it should piss you the fuck off. But you justify it. So fuck you. Never met a jarhead with a lick of sense anyway.

  335. 335.

    DougJ

    December 18, 2007 at 11:42 pm

    Somehow your talk of being instinctively repulsed by Hillary puts me in mind of this scene from “Cheers”

    SAM: You are the nuttiest, the stupidest, the phoniest fruitcake I ever met!
    DIANE: You Sam Malone are the most arrogant self centered, son of a b…
    SAM & DIANE: (together) SHUT UP!
    SAM: Shut your fat mouth!
    DIANE: Make me
    SAM: Make you.. My God I’m, I’m gonna, I’m GONNA BOUNCE YOU OFF EVERY WALL IN THIS OFFICE!!
    DIANE: Try it and you’ll be walking funny tomorrow… Or should I say funnier.
    SAM: You know, You know I always wanted to pop you one!
    Maybe this is my lucky day, huh?
    DIANE: You disgust me! I hate you!
    SAM: Are you as turned on as I am?
    DIANE: More!

  336. 336.

    Randolph Fritz

    December 19, 2007 at 12:49 am

    her pandering, lying, manipulative, triangulating, condescending self

    More than Obama, who is gradually edging over to the right? More than any other Senator except perhaps Dodd or Feingold? She’s got an authoritarian streak to be sure; she is basically a conservative Democrat. But what makes her worse than anyone else in the Senate? Or maybe you just seem something I’m missing.

  337. 337.

    Cain

    December 19, 2007 at 1:41 am

    I’m instinctively repulsed by anyone who tries to censor my video games, i.e Hillary and Holy Joe.

    For some reason, Holy Joe on estrogen scares me.

    cain

  338. 338.

    Cain

    December 19, 2007 at 1:43 am

    Somehow your talk of being instinctively repulsed by Hillary puts me in mind of this scene from “Cheers”

    Didn’t they recreate that scene in Frazier too? (although with a different (more funny) ending?

    cain

  339. 339.

    Mark William

    December 19, 2007 at 2:05 am

    Molly Ivins agreed with you for the very same reasons John, if that is any consolation. Senator Clinton is not a solution to deeply corrupted Beltway class, she is part of the problem as are most of the other mainstream candidates. This accounts for the rising support of Huckabee and Ron Paul.

  340. 340.

    myiq2xu

    December 19, 2007 at 3:07 am

    A for profit corporation cannot do things cheaper than a GI.

    Do you know what “cost plus” means in a guvmint contract? Whatever the costs are, add a guaranteed percentage of profit. In other words, if the contract (K) is for cost (C) plus 20%, the formula for figgering your profit is K=C(.2)

    That means the higher your “cost” the higher your profit.

    If cost = $1,000,000 then profit is $200,000. If cost is $1,000,000,000 then profit is $2,000,000.

    What is the incentive? Maximize cost.

  341. 341.

    Cassidy

    December 19, 2007 at 7:28 am

    Awright, so I’ve now learned that John S. is going to generalize the whole company as rapists, thieves, etc. based on some deplorable stories about individuals. Also, Bob is completely incapable of having a conversation on this that is objective.

    You both are so completely one dimensional.

  342. 342.

    John S.

    December 19, 2007 at 8:35 am

    Let’s recap. Cassidy says:

    KBR has been contracted to do a job. They are very effective at said job. They are actually quite good at it.

    John S. posts four links to stories that indicate KBR is overcharging the government, engaging in dubious business practices and not doing a good job.

    Cassidy responds:

    Awright, so I’ve now learned that John S. is going to generalize the whole company as rapists, thieves, etc. based on some deplorable stories about individuals.

    I’d love to see where I characterized KBR as ‘rapists’. Certainly thieves is implied, seeing as how they are bilking the US taxpayers. And only 1/4 stories describes the actions of individual KBR employess – the other three describe the actions of the company itself.

    What a dishonest little baby you are, Cassidy. And you wonder why people treat you the way they do.

  343. 343.

    Cassidy

    December 19, 2007 at 8:45 am

    Heh…you are really amusing. Dishonesty is characterizing the whole company as thieves based on a few stories. But, never fear, I will explain this so your tiny little mind can grasp it.

    KBR is good at providing infrastructure support and services. No comment was made by me regarding the corporate culture or practices. KBR does an outstanding job of providing the services it is contracted to provide. No comment was made by regarding it’s pricing practices, etc.

    I realize that you are unable to have a conversation that doesn’t involve you making assumptions. It is okay to be so ignorant that you can’t have a conversation without projecting your own inadequacies. But, you should really stop embarrassing yourself. If you can’t read a simple statement without making wrong assumptions, based on your own lack of facts, then maybe you shouldn’t comment at all.

  344. 344.

    demimondian

    December 19, 2007 at 11:55 am

    Didn’t they recreate that scene in Frazier too? (although with a different (more funny) ending?

    More to the point, didn’t they steal that scene from _Who’s afraid of Virginia Wolff?

  345. 345.

    John S.

    December 19, 2007 at 12:10 pm

    Dishonesty is characterizing the whole company as thieves based on a few stories.

    No, dishonesty is accusing someone of saying something they never said. Oh, and also pretending that all those stories don’t point the finger directly at the company rather than a ‘few bad apples’.

    KBR is good at providing infrastructure support and services.

    According to whom? You? Of course, as usual, you cannot produce even a scrap of evidence to support your fantastic claims.

    KBR does an outstanding job of providing the services it is contracted to provide. No comment was made by regarding it’s pricing practices, etc.

    Way to move those goalposts. Even if I accept your edited version of what you meant to say, two of those articles say otherwise. Not only is KBR engaging in shoddy business practices, they are also fialing to do the job for which they were hired. Nice try, though.

    I realize that you are unable to have a conversation that doesn’t involve you making assumptions.

    I realize that all of your threads are merely you making assumptions, so I can see where you would presume everyone else is as intellectually dishonest as you are.

    If you can’t read a simple statement without making wrong assumptions, based on your own lack of facts, then maybe you shouldn’t comment at all.

    Pot, kettle, etc. You are quite the amusing commenter. I especially love when you make these ironic statements as if the irony is completely lost on you. Is it? Can you really be this stupid? Judging from your posts, I’d say yes.

    If the day ever comes that you can post anything that constitutes more than a baseless opinion combined with a personal attack on anyone who disagrees (while purposely misrepresenting their position) because you are deluded enough to think your opinions are facts, then I suppose we can accept your critiques.

    Until then, you would be wise to run along and leave the critical thinking to those that are capable of it.

  346. 346.

    scarshapedstar

    December 19, 2007 at 12:57 pm

    KBR is the worst best company ever and that’s why people are pouring out of into Iraq as the infrastructure falls apart under rivers of shit and piss shines with beaten gold.

    This message brought to you by Dick Cheney’s stock portfolio.

  347. 347.

    Cassidy

    December 19, 2007 at 1:51 pm

    John S., you are sad and pathetic. It really amazes me that people like you can exist and breed. One would think that evolution would have caught up with you quite some time ago. Oh well. Maybe we’ll be blessed with a Christmas miracle.

    OTOH, I think I’ll just have to ignore you as you cannot seem to get beyond your own narrow minded misconceptions. Please don’t breed.

  348. 348.

    Darkness

    December 19, 2007 at 5:57 pm

    ruff ruff ruff
    ruff ruff ruff
    ruff ruf RUFF ROUFF ruff

    ruff ruff ruff
    ru-ruff ruff ruff
    ruf ruf ROUFF RUFF ruff

  349. 349.

    John S.

    December 19, 2007 at 6:40 pm

    Poor Cassidy.

    When all you have left is bluster and bullshit you have to resort to flat out personal attacks. Listen, I don’t mind a good personal attack, so long as it’s mixed in with some actual response in defense of whatever point you are trying to make. But alas, your last few posts contain nary a refutation of my counterpoints nor affirmation of your point – just a lot of “nanny, nanny, boo, boo” followed by you sticking your fingers in your ears and blowing me a raspberry.

    Poor Cassidy.

Comments are closed.

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  1. The Lynching of Barry O at politburo diktat 2.0 says:
    December 18, 2007 at 12:57 pm

    […] John Cole doesn’t like it. Precisely why they are doing it, whether to appeal directly to racism, or perhaps to show how tough they are, as I suggested yesterday, or even for some other reason, is irrelevant. They are taking this shot. [↩] […]

  2. Balloon Juice says:
    December 18, 2007 at 1:34 pm

    […] I love comments like this: […]

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