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You are here: Home / Politics / I Give Up

I Give Up

by John Cole|  January 15, 20086:23 pm| 119 Comments

This post is in: Politics, Democratic Stupidity, General Stupidity

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Sully is now linking Captain Ed and praising his honesty for… a post blaming Hillary Clinton for Richard Cohen’s noxious attack on Obama in the WaPo today.

You see how that works- Cohen churns out a true piece of excrement, Ed blames Hillary, Sully praises Ed for… candor.

From here on out, I suggest we just blame Hillary for everything. Stub your toe- yell “GOD DAMNIT, HILLARY.”

Bad weather- “WHY WON’T YOU LEAVE OBAMA ALONE, HILLARY?”

Stomache hurts- “WHY IS HILLARY RACE BAITING.”

Christ, I don’t even like her, but I have never seen such an over-the-top effort to trash someone as I have seen launched at Hillary the past few weeks. We have reached the height of absurdity, and the Obama fanboy nonsense is bordering on the unhinged.

I am officially writing in the Dodd. I don’t give a shit what Hillary and Obama do to each other in the next few weeks, but I am sure it will be all Hillary’s fault. Everything is, isn’t it?

PS- The Draft Bloomberg Committee can drop dead, too. The last damned thing I want this election is some squishy moderate to come in and make nice. The house is out of order and some asses need to be kicked. Please stop emailing me, you stupid bastards.

/cranky

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Previous Post: « Fake But Accurate
Next Post: Conflict of Interest »

Reader Interactions

119Comments

  1. 1.

    Dennis - SGMM

    January 15, 2008 at 6:27 pm

    May the Tater Tot grant him absolution.

  2. 2.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 6:28 pm

    Umm…

    Sully was not pleased with that cohen column?

    Look! Embedding!

  3. 3.

    ThymeZone

    January 15, 2008 at 6:31 pm

    I am sure it will be all Hillary’s fault. Everything is, isn’t it?

    No. But that Cohen piece is really trash. Obama has been Goldberged.

  4. 4.

    Scotty

    January 15, 2008 at 6:31 pm

    Has it already come to CDS?

  5. 5.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 6:33 pm

    /me rereads Cole’s post

    ohh…

    /me rereads Sully’s post.

    /me searches for “Clinton” in Sully post.

    Zero matches found.

    Yeah, I still think Sully’s in the clear on this one. I have been emailing him bitching that he’s giving her too damn much oxygen. She should die a slow death while Obama gets room to either wow us or fall on his face. I dunno if he’s been listening, but his Clinton post count is lower than yesterday.

  6. 6.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 6:35 pm

    Goldberged.

    Can we change that to “Goldburgled”? It just sounds better.

    Like Hamburgler. But by the guy who eats all the hamburgers, not the dude who sells them on the black market.

  7. 7.

    John Cole

    January 15, 2008 at 6:35 pm

    Yeah, I still think Sully’s in the clear on this one. I have been emailing him bitching that he’s giving her too damn much oxygen. She should die a slow death while Obama gets room to either wow us or fall on his face. I dunno if he’s been listening, but his Clinton post count is lower than yesterday.

    The Yglesias award is for people who tell the truth when it is unpopular. He is awarding it to Captain Ed for a quote from a piece in which… CAPTAIN ED BLAMES THE HILLARY CAMP FOR COHEN’S POS article.

  8. 8.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 6:38 pm

    Speaking of Goldburgling: Yglesias on Liberal Fascism (h/t Sully).

    Good times, good times.

  9. 9.

    PK

    January 15, 2008 at 6:39 pm

    Funny it was all this Clinton hatred which turned me against the republicans in the first place. I realized I hated the Clinton haters more than I disliked the Clintons.

  10. 10.

    Napoleon

    January 15, 2008 at 6:41 pm

    A 3 or 4 months ago I quit reading Cohen and this is another reason not read him again. Now I won’t even click on something on the Post website unless it is by Eugene R, Dionne, Fromkin or Myerson or is a must read I effectively can not get anywhere else.

  11. 11.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 6:47 pm

    The Yglesias award is for people who tell the truth when it is unpopular. He is awarding it to Captain Ed for a quote from a piece in which… CAPTAIN ED BLAMES THE HILLARY CAMP FOR COHEN’S POS article.

    Ahh… I see where you’re coming from. Obviously, this is some no-brainer shit; probably not worth the award.

    I think the criteria is when you bite the hand of your darling party, though. Given Captain’s Ed apparently erratic dosing schedule, I can’t tell if he should be eligible.

    But also, if you note, Sully, despite his Paul endorsement, has also been very defensive of Obama. Is it because he’s against Klin-Ton? Possibly. But this might be Sully mad at a random jerk. Sully gets emotional. Here’s a quote liked from him

    I appreciate [Obama’s sophrosyne] all the more since I often lack it myself.

    Dude’s at least honest.

  12. 12.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 6:50 pm

    You know what, stop listening to me.

    I can’t even read something three times and get what someone is saying. It JUST occurred to me the Ed is looking at the left-wing, not the right.

    Sorry. I’m fried. I rescind everything. Continue your normal exposition schedule.

  13. 13.

    demkat620

    January 15, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    John Cole, Fuck Yeah!

  14. 14.

    John Cole

    January 15, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    I love reading Sullivan, don’t get me wrong. I just think his Clinton hatred is making him look past a lot of things. Plus, Andrew is like me- we are both heaters, this is a hot medium, and we fire off things that are not always right. I always try to correct things, fess up when I am wrong, or at the very least, argue why I think I am right or thought I was right when I wrote what I wrote.

  15. 15.

    Harley

    January 15, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    There may in fact be an over-the-top effort to trash Hillary, but Captain Ed’s look at the Cohen op-ed is hardly part of it. He starts out by suggesting it was only a matter of time before “Hillary Clinton supporters” latch onto Obama’s affiliation. He then specifically refers to and quotes Richard Cohen as ‘taking up the cudgel’ — suggesting, I guess, that he’s a Hillary supporter. Then, at the end of the piece, he talks about some of the familiar “eruptions” from the “Clinton camp” — by which he means, again, her supporters — reminding us that Shaheen and Johnson both have/had direct ties to the campaign and are therefore her responsibility. A point he does not make about Cohen or his op-ed.

    Look, I know you’re greatly invested in being proved right about insensate support for Obama, and I guess adding HIllary Bashing to the Unity Pony vaudeville makes sense. But you’re going to have to do better than Captain Ed’s piece and Sully’s link to it.

    Describing it as “over-the-top” Hillary bashing or including it in the Obama “fan-boy nonsense” castegory only proves how invested you are in your original thesis. Nothing wrong with that, of course. I’d just suggest that being factually dishonest or willfully ignorant is a less than effective way to support it.

  16. 16.

    Elvis Elvisberg

    January 15, 2008 at 6:53 pm

    I don’t see what “Obama fanboy nonsense” has to do with this.

    Cohen and his article are despised by all right-thinking human beings.

    Hillary is not to blame for Cohen.

    Nothing bad about Obama here. Why interject it?

    Other than that, I agree with your post. Hillary’s my last choice among Dems (actually, I’ll put her behind Kucinich; I think that would be fun), but the frothing Sullivans of the world always leave me defending her.

  17. 17.

    Mike

    January 15, 2008 at 6:55 pm

    I used to love reading Sullivan because he hates Bush for all the right reasons. It’s irritating that he hates Clinton just as much without half the provocation.

  18. 18.

    ThymeZone

    January 15, 2008 at 6:59 pm

    I always try to correct things, fess up when I am wrong, or at the very least, argue why I think I am right or thought I was right when I wrote what I wrote.

    Indeed. That’s why you have a loyal commentariat. Annoying, and embarrassing, yes, but loyal.

  19. 19.

    UnkyT

    January 15, 2008 at 6:59 pm

    but I have never seen such an over-the-top effort to trash someone

    Come on, I know you were around in ’04 for libruls hate America/the troops/going after terrorists, John Kerry didn’t earn his Purple Heart, Plame wasn’t undercover . . .

  20. 20.

    TheFountainHead

    January 15, 2008 at 6:59 pm

    Yeah, I get that Sullivan hates Clinton and that that puts your panties in a twist, Cole, but why hate Obama because so many people DISLIKE Hillary? I just don’t get it.

  21. 21.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 7:03 pm

    Yeah, I get that Sullivan hates Clinton and that that puts your panties in a twist, Cole, but why hate Obama because so many people DISLIKE Hillary? I just don’t get it.

    Snark. This is snark, right? Right?

    Help me out here, I’m mentally disabled right now.

  22. 22.

    TheFountainHead

    January 15, 2008 at 7:05 pm

    Nah dude,that’s not snark. Sorry. Smoke less.

  23. 23.

    John Cole

    January 15, 2008 at 7:08 pm

    I don’t hate Obama. I know the Obama fans don’t get it, but just because I don’t want to have his babies and don’t think he is all ZOMG THE GREATEST THING EVAH does not mean I hate him.

    Seriously.

    However, it is the Obama fanboys who have been spearheading the charge to trash Hillary. They have joined hands with the Captain Eds and Rush Limbaugh and the NRO and they are just having a grand old Hillary bashing orgy. Granted, I am not the sharpest tack, and I just joined the Democratioc party, but that should tell you something.

  24. 24.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 7:16 pm

    Nah dude,that’s not snark. Sorry. Smoke less.

    Yeeeeaaah I gotta back Cole on this one. He hasn’t said a single thing against ‘bama. I keep checking, because I’m a fan of his. None.

    He keeps dissing me as an Obama fan… but I’m sure it’s all in good fun. Right?

  25. 25.

    Hypatia

    January 15, 2008 at 7:19 pm

    She should die a slow death while Obama gets room to either wow us or fall on his face.

    Leaving aside the slow death stuff, which I assume is metaphor although you never know these days when it comes to anti-Hillary rhetoric from left or right. May I suggest, respectfully, that Obama has already had a fair amount of room to wow us, and he has certainly succeeded in wowing the easily wowable. (I don’t think he’s going to fall on his face at any point, and even if he did I think it would be mostly ignored, such is the present atmosphere.) I like many things about the guy and I’m glad he’s in the race, but his inspirationally vacuous rhetoric and the HillaryHate of his more, uh, enthusiastic followers is a real turnoff.

    My own preferred candidate was Dodd, but I confess –I don’t hate Clinton. She might actually do a pretty decent job, assuming she gets the job. And I’m tired of the implication that an Obama defeat means the apocalypse is nigh. Somehow I don’t think he’s going to leave the country if he loses.

    Of course, we can always just forget the whole election business and have Obama pull a sword from a stone.

  26. 26.

    Harley

    January 15, 2008 at 7:20 pm

    Geesh, one more time. Captain Ed’s post certainly bashed Richard Cohen and those who would try to make political hay out of Obama’s church affiliation. But it in no way qualifies as ‘trashing’ Hillary. (I have no idea to what extent he’s trashed her in the past, recent or distant, as I don’t read him.)

    It ain’t that difficult to portray Sully as an Obama “fanboy.” Using Ed’s post to do so makes no sense. It’s also dishonest. That you have a hard time recognizing this only adds to the perception that you suffer from a different sort of Obamania.

    Good luck with that.

  27. 27.

    Enlightened Layperson

    January 15, 2008 at 7:22 pm

    I strongly suggest avoiding reading anything about the primaries except the outcome. Too close following of the blather about primaries has been known to cause hyperventilation, nausea, chest pains, uncontrollable head-banging, seizures, insanity, and apoplexy. I don’t rule out rabies, either. So if you value your health (physical or mental), but down the toxic literature and move slowly away.

  28. 28.

    John S.

    January 15, 2008 at 7:25 pm

    Of course, we can always just forget the whole election business and have Obama pull a sword from a stone.

    In the event that happens, he gets my vote.

  29. 29.

    John Cole

    January 15, 2008 at 7:28 pm

    Geesh, one more time. Captain Ed’s post certainly bashed Richard Cohen and those who would try to make political hay out of Obama’s church affiliation. But it in no way qualifies as ‘trashing’ Hillary.

    Are you stupid, or a troll? From Ed’s Piece:

    It didn’t take long for Hillary Clinton supporters to latch onto Barack Obama’s church as a rebuttal to the criticism they’ve taken for Hillary’s remarks about the role of civil-rights activists in fostering real change. Richard Cohen takes up the cudgel by demanding that Obama disavow the minister of Trinity United Church for his endorsement of Louis Farrakhan via an award given in his name

    Directly attributing COHEN’s nonsense to Hillary in the opening graf is not good enough for you?

    BTW- Ed mentions Cohen, the author of the bullshit, by name three times. Hillary’s name appears 7 times.

  30. 30.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 7:34 pm

    May I suggest,

    Yes

    respectfully,

    wait, where the hell do you think you are? Some place of ethos and grandeur? For all you know, you’re electronically hanging out in John Cole’s garage while he sits on top of the case polishing off a bottle of single malt. In shorts, I’d imagine.

    that Obama has already had a fair amount of room to wow us

    Sorry, no. I’m not giving him the spotlight because I like him. I’m giving him the spotlight because he’s notable. He’s maintained a constant attitude in an environment of acid and baiting. He loses this spotlight when:
    a.) When he breaks the streak and flings even the smallest bit of mud, or makes the slightest defensive maneuver.
    b.) When the DNC is over (assuming he’s not the nominee).

    Clinton lost my ear when she devalued MLK to save the status of career politicians. Agree or disagree with the core of the comment, the fact is she didn’t have to play that card. She could have left the hope issue alone and let the public decide on it, settle it, but instead she dragged out MLK for her own purposes when she didn’t have to. And agree or disagree whether that’s fair, it’s not notable. It’s more of the same. She has disappointed me, and Obama has not yet.

    I fully expect that Obama will slip up as the DNC nears and the noose tightens. I, of course, hope he doesn’t.

  31. 31.

    crw

    January 15, 2008 at 7:36 pm

    Sullivan? I don’t think think he got the memo that everything in the Arkansas Project was – how to put this delicately – pulled out of the right wing’s collective ass. He’s entertaining, but his main use is as a training aid for confirmation bias.

  32. 32.

    myiq2xu

    January 15, 2008 at 7:45 pm

    For all you know, you’re electronically hanging out in John Cole’s garage while he sits on top of the case polishing off a bottle of single malt. In shorts, I’d imagine.

    Let’s hope it’s someplace that nice. I hate to think of him using his laptop from the . . .uh, “reading room.”

  33. 33.

    Chris Andersen

    January 15, 2008 at 7:47 pm

    I realized I hated the Clinton haters more than I disliked the Clintons.

    Booya!

    I think this is the secret to the Clinton’s success. They manage to drive their enemies batshit insane. The rest of humanity looks on and goes, “WTF?”. So, even if average people have problems with the Clintons, the insanity of their opponents causes people to give them a pass.

    The Clintons are an identity group all in themselves.

  34. 34.

    myiq2xu

    January 15, 2008 at 7:51 pm

    Clinton lost my ear when she devalued MLK to save the status of career politicians.

    I’ve read and re-read that comment (the full one, not the edited version) and while it’s clumsy, you really have to stretch to turn that into a put-down of MLK.

    BTW- What is Obama, if not a “career politician?”

  35. 35.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 7:51 pm

    I think this is the secret to the Clinton’s success. They manage to drive their enemies batshit insane.

    *Exactly* the reason I want Clinton getting less oxygen. She doesn’t use it for the usual citric acid cycle, she uses it to stoke the fires.

  36. 36.

    myiq2xu

    January 15, 2008 at 7:56 pm

    I think this is the secret to the Clinton’s success. They manage to drive their enemies batshit insane. The rest of humanity looks on and goes, “WTF?”. So, even if average people have problems with the Clintons, the insanity of their opponents causes people to give them a pass.

    You could make an argument that the best thing that ever happened to Slick Willy was Newt and the impeachment posse.

    The Clenis sure looked good in comparison to that motley crew.

  37. 37.

    Chris Andersen

    January 15, 2008 at 7:56 pm

    Clinton lost my ear when she devalued MLK to save the status of career politicians.

    This is not a zero-sum game. It is possible to praise the work of LBJ without devaluing the work of MLK. The Obama camp’s accusation that that was what Hillary was doing was a deliberate misinterpretation for political effect.

    I happen to think Hillary made a mistake in opening herself up to such an easy attack by the Obama camp (and it shows that said camp is actually pretty politically cagey and the the whole “let’s all come together” approach is as much schtick as it is real.) All in all it was not one of her better moments. But neither has it been to Obama’s credit that he has used her flub to push the impression that Hillary has a low view of MLK.

  38. 38.

    myiq2xu

    January 15, 2008 at 7:57 pm

    She doesn’t use it for the usual citric acid cycle, she uses it to stoke the fires.

    And since she is a daemon from Hell, the heat doesn’t bother her.

  39. 39.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 7:57 pm

    I’ve read and re-read that comment (the full one, not the edited version) and while it’s clumsy, you really have to stretch to turn that into a put-down of MLK.

    Nah, I meant “devalued” where she weaved in “It took LBJ to do it, it wasn’t just MLK”. While it’s likely true, who the hell cares what some white, secure, Prez-ascended VP did, and what the fuck is even the point?

    What’s that, Mrs. Hillary? Oh, I’ve got false hope? I should lower expectations? Gotcha. Not sure how low they can go after the last 7 years, but I’ll get right on that, ma’am.

  40. 40.

    Hypatia

    January 15, 2008 at 7:58 pm

    wait, where the hell do you think you are? Some place of ethos and grandeur? For all you know, you’re electronically hanging out in John Cole’s garage while he sits on top of the case polishing off a bottle of single malt. In shorts, I’d imagine.

    Wait – this isn’t the Oxford Union?

  41. 41.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 8:02 pm

    This is not a zero-sum game. It is possible to praise the work of LBJ without devaluing the work of MLK. The Obama camp’s accusation that that was what Hillary was doing was a deliberate misinterpretation for political effect.

    Read previous post. Also, she’s utilizing MLK for her own purposes, which is at best dishonorable.

    But don’t forget, it’s not for her. It’s for the people. She has to make you realize that choosing Obama is wrong, and she is the light and the way.

    Can’t politicians, most of them (“all of them” if Obama slips up), ever shut the fuck up long enough to let us evaluate a person without them saying something so outrageously fecal that it interferes with our normal meditations?

  42. 42.

    Tlaloc

    January 15, 2008 at 8:04 pm

    I’m pretty much at the same place as Cole. I have no love at all for Hillary, but I don’t hate her either, which means this campaign is making me more and more sympathetic to here because of the outlandish attacks are non-stop.

    I expect “CDS” from the right, they are in many respects still living in the 90s, except when they are living in the 80s (“where’s my Ronald Regan clone for president?”), because that’s when they were *less* spectacularly idiotic. Their golden age was 80-88 and 94-96. SO their hatred I get, in the same way I still love crap like herculoids from my youth, they still hate clinton for stealing their lunch money.

    But the hatred on the left is weird. Yeah she’s done some seriously bone headed things, show me a dem who hasn’t. And for the most part the attacks have nothing to do with the substance, but boil down to, as Cole puts it, fanboyism.

  43. 43.

    myiq2xu

    January 15, 2008 at 8:05 pm

    Nah, I meant “devalued” where she weaved in “It took LBJ to do it, it wasn’t just MLK”. While it’s likely true, who the hell cares what some white, secure, Prez-ascended VP did, and what the fuck is even the point?

    Her point was that it took a wily “career politician” (from a conservative Southern state) to get the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 passed.

    LBJ did a hell of a lot more that just sign it when it reached his desk. Read up on LBJ before you dismiss him so easily.

    BTW – He was falsely quoted as saying “We have lost the South for a generation,” after he signed the Civil Rights Act. While the quote is false, the effect wasn’t.

  44. 44.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 8:05 pm

    Wait – this isn’t the Oxford Union?

    Depends on the proof and the consecutive number of bottles of scotch John has quaffed. If he’s far enough along, this can be the Oval Office if he wants.

  45. 45.

    Incertus (Brian)

    January 15, 2008 at 8:05 pm

    Oh come on, John. There’s a very good reason to support a Bloomberg candidacy, not the least of is which that he’d never win.

  46. 46.

    The Other Andrew

    January 15, 2008 at 8:07 pm

    I don’t know if I count as an Obama fanboy or not. Of the two realistic choices (himself and Hillary), I definitely prefer him. And though I’m not a follower of the Unity Pony doctrine, I do think we should be reaching out to John Cole conservatives and trying to emphasize what we’re for, as well as what we’re against.

    When I read the Iraq 2018 thread, I immediately wished that Obama would come out and say that it’s unacceptable for American troops to remain there that long, leaving Hillary to match or fail. He just needs to start with something basic yet specific, such as that.

  47. 47.

    myiq2xu

    January 15, 2008 at 8:07 pm

    Read up on LBJ before you dismiss him so easily.

    If it hadn’t been for Vietnam, LBJ would be considered one of our greatest Presidents.

  48. 48.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 8:14 pm

    LBJ did a hell of a lot more that just sign it when it reached his desk.

    I’m aware of that. But lets compare:
    a.) LBJ lost the south
    b.) MLK was shot in the fucking head

    and then,

    a.) LBJ used a position of authority to fight for those who did not have freedom.
    b.) MLK fought for freedom without having the freedom to do so effectively.

    while, yes, you can sit there and assign everyone their appropriate value, if you’re that kind of historian… off the cuff, there is no appropriate reward for you mincing and parsing our most recent great catharsis. And for it to be done so casually…?

    Unless Obama is going to weaken civil rights, Hill was pandering. We all know it.

    She can feel free to apologize for it, say it was a dumb plead for rationality, and I’ll give her a fair shake, but I’m not going to wait for it.

  49. 49.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 8:16 pm

    I don’t know if I count as an Obama fanboy or not. Of the two realistic choices (himself and Hillary), I definitely prefer him. And though I’m not a follower of the Unity Pony doctrine, I do think we should be reaching out to John Cole conservatives and trying to emphasize what we’re for, as well as what we’re against.

    Depends. Cole has been swimming in Obama fanboy drool for awhile. He’s looking bit pale.

    When I read the Iraq 2018 thread, I immediately wished that Obama would come out and say that it’s unacceptable for American troops to remain there that long, leaving Hillary to match or fail. He just needs to start with something basic yet specific, such as that.

    Not a bad idea. Anyone could score points with me if they did that.

  50. 50.

    Tim F.

    January 15, 2008 at 8:19 pm

    Damn you, Scott Beauchamp!

  51. 51.

    cleek

    January 15, 2008 at 8:20 pm

    We have reached the height of absurdity, and the Obama fanboy nonsense is bordering on the unhinged.

    and somehow i’ve missed it all. if it wasn’t for your obsession with it, i wouldn’t know it even exists.

    maybe you should read different newspapers/blogs.

  52. 52.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 8:23 pm

    maybe you should read different newspapers/blogs.

    We should all read each candidate’s position papers and judge accordingly, me included, and then stop with this shit. From what little I know, the positions for me actually keep Clinton near the top of my list, and I can’t tell if this gossipy hell is helping me to or keeping me from making the right decision.

  53. 53.

    Hypatia

    January 15, 2008 at 8:29 pm

    I strongly suggest avoiding reading anything about the primaries except the outcome. Too close following of the blather about primaries has been known to cause hyperventilation, nausea, chest pains, uncontrollable head-banging, seizures, insanity, and apoplexy. I don’t rule out rabies, either. So if you value your health (physical or mental), but down the toxic literature and move slowly away.

    You may also begin posting to a blog in defense of the Clintons. I speak from personal experience.

  54. 54.

    Tsulagi

    January 15, 2008 at 8:32 pm

    Clinton lost my ear when she devalued MLK to save the status of career politicians.

    Bullshit

    The Obama camp’s accusation that that was what Hillary was doing was a deliberate misinterpretation for political effect.

    Yep.

  55. 55.

    Jake

    January 15, 2008 at 8:32 pm

    Can we change that to “Goldburgled”?

    How about Goldbuggered?

  56. 56.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 8:41 pm

    Clinton lost my ear when she devalued MLK to save the status of career politicians.

    Bullshit

    Umm, what? Seriously, until MLK, I pegged Obama as starry eyed and a newb, and Hillary as caustic but on stable ground.

    The MLK quote proved me wrong about the “stable ground” part. If she was stable, she could have won that contest without going there.

    Obama is still starry-eyed and a newb and has work to do, and Clinton can keep trying to prove to me she really is stable, but she’s not doing so hot.

    Where’s the problem?

  57. 57.

    Gus

    January 15, 2008 at 8:48 pm

    It’s finally gotten to the point where I can’t read Sully any more. It’s too bad, because even when I disagreed with him, which was much or most of the time, I found he usually was somewhat reasonable about it. Unlike most of today’s conservatives, he could at least admit he was wrong. I was able to forgive him for essentially calling me a traitor (the whole 5th column shit), but he has a real hard on for the Clintons, and he is absolutely incapable of looking at them objectively. He’s like an addict. He knows he goes too far, but he can’t help himself. It’s made him pretty much unreadable for me. I used to stop by his blog a couple times a day, but I’m gonna give it a rest for a while. And I don’t even really care for the Clintons.

  58. 58.

    myiq2xu

    January 15, 2008 at 8:49 pm

    Obama is still starry-eyed and a newb and has work to do, and Clinton can keep trying to prove to me she really is stable, but she’s not doing so hot.

    Where’s the problem?

    Hmmm. You don’t believe those ads that say “Horny virgins are waiting to talk to you now” do you?

  59. 59.

    Tsulagi

    January 15, 2008 at 8:56 pm

    Where’s the problem?

    Both Hillary and Transcenderman are running for the office of president. Candidates should be telling the electorate what they would do as president and how they would conduct themselves in office.

    Hillary’s comment in no way demeaned MLK nor took anything away from what he achieved. Her point was that it took a president to show at least enough courage and strength to push needed change into law. MLK himself could not achieve that. He held no office. I agree with Hillary’s observation. It was not a big-deal comment.

    Obama’s camp decided to make it a big deal. I call bullshit.

    Hillary said she would have the strength and courage to do what’s right. Maybe, maybe not. Given today’s state of the Democratic party, probably the best a later-day MLK could hope for would be a sternly worded resolution in support of civil rights.

  60. 60.

    Harley

    January 15, 2008 at 8:56 pm

    No, John, I’m not a troll. And apparently you can’t or won’t take the time to read your own citation. Again, to repeat, and as if speaking to a child: Captain Ed refers to “Hillary Clinton supporters” — you understand that this is not the same thing as Hillary herself, yes? He then suggests that Cohen is taking up the cudgel on their behalf — one might assume he’s also suggesting Cohen is a Hillary supporter, but that is, I suppose, debatable. How in the world is this attributing Cohen’s actions to Hillary? It’s mostly a criticism of Cohen. It begins with a statement about Hillary Clinton supporters and the criticism she has received as of late. That’s about it.

    In other words, he’s attributing Cohen’s nonsense to Hillary’s SUPPORTERS. At no point in the post does Captain Ed blame Hillary herself. In keeping with this, Hillary’s name is rarely mentioned in Captain Ed’s post without a qualifier — Hillary’s supporters, Hillary’s campaign. But hey, thanks for counting. A less than impressive rejoinder. But the effort is appreciated.

    Again. If you’re looking for an excuse to write-in Dodd, or continue the Obamania critique, surely you can do better than this. Hell, you have done better.

  61. 61.

    John Cole

    January 15, 2008 at 9:13 pm

    No, John, I’m not a troll. And apparently you can’t or won’t take the time to read your own citation. Again, to repeat, and as if speaking to a child: Captain Ed refers to “Hillary Clinton supporters”—you understand that this is not the same thing as Hillary herself, yes? He then suggests that Cohen is taking up the cudgel on their behalf—one might assume he’s also suggesting Cohen is a Hillary supporter, but that is, I suppose, debatable. How in the world is this attributing Cohen’s actions to Hillary? It’s mostly a criticism of Cohen. It begins with a statement about Hillary Clinton supporters and the criticism she has received as of late. That’s about it.

    Where have you been? Everyone who is a Hillary supporter is directly controled by Hillary. They were all in cahoots last week with the EGREGIOUS SMEARS when someone said kid and fairy tale. Hell, read the rest:

    Consider the eruptions that came from Hillary’s camp over the last couple of weeks. Billy Shaheen explicitly suggested that Barack Obama may have dealt drugs without any evidence supporting that allegation. BET chief Robert Johnson alluded to Obama’s admitted drug use as a teenager to suggest something similar. Both of them had direct ties to Hillary’s campaign, which made Hillary responsible for their behavior. Not only does Farrakhan have no ties to Obama, but Obama isn’t putting Wright out on the campaign trail as Hillary did with Johnson.

    This seems intended to paint Obama as anti-Semitic as a way to push back against the repeated Hillary fumbles on her civil-rights rhetoric and attacks on Obama.

    It is a designed strategy! HILLARY HILLARY HILLARY. SHE DID IT! HILLARY MADE CHARLIE RANGEL TALK SMACK TODAY. HILLARY IS EVIL! HILLARY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HER SUPPORTERS.

    Seriously. I spent years hating the Clintons, and this is patently obvious to me what is going on here. Why are you all pretending to be so stupid about this?

  62. 62.

    D-Chance.

    January 15, 2008 at 9:15 pm

    I am officially writing in the Dodd.

    He IS getting 1% of the Michigan vote… ;)

    In the meantime, Mitt’s getting his hard-bought win. “Not Hillary”, er, “uncommitted” is getting 1/3rd of the Dem vote.

  63. 63.

    TheFountainHead

    January 15, 2008 at 9:23 pm

    Is anyone watching this debate? I really hope Brian and Tim pick up the level of discourse. STFU and let the candidates talk about their shit, yo!

  64. 64.

    Dreggas

    January 15, 2008 at 9:24 pm

    Well, all I can say is this. For all the Sainthood heaped upon Bill his wife is draining it and he is helping. Bottom line, a lot of people thought the LBJ comment was tactless and even if it was a mistake it still gave the appearance of “It took a white man” and no I didn’t get that from Obama’s camp. I read what she said and my jaw dropped. Think others got it from the Obama camp? Think again, go read some of the AA bloggers out there and see their reaction, look at the feedback from the AA community. Especially after the Robert Johnson bullshit.

    Also consider the fact that a lot of democrats, liked Bill but dislike and continue to dislike his wife almost as viscerally as the right did. The only reason the Clinton’s are playing dirty, and they are and you know it, is that because at the end of all this people would hold their nose and pull the lever for that bitch because the alternative would be far worse.

  65. 65.

    Harley

    January 15, 2008 at 9:27 pm

    Well, John, as I am currently watching the debate and my heart is full of Obama sunshine — the kind that you would never understand — I will reply in a kinder fashion than your rant deserves. Heh.

    Thing is, I don’t believe everyone who is a Hillary supporter is directly controled [sic] by Hillary. Conveniently enough, Hillary has just said the same thing on my television set. Similarly, I don’t believe that they were all in cahoots last week when “someone” said kid and fairy tale. (That someone was her husband, btw, but hey, shit happens.)

    As for your second citation, I must admit to being heartened that you’ve given up on the Cohen column and are now focusing on Captain Ed’s comments regarding Shaheen and Johnson. Shaheen was a part of her campaign, not a supporter, and was dismissed. Good for Hillary. Hillary just said — hey, thanks TV set! — that Johnson’s comments were ‘out of bounds.’ None of this has a whit to do with my objections to your mischaracterization of Captain Ed’s post about Richard Cohen’s column.

    Also jokes don’t work better when capitalized.

  66. 66.

    John Cole

    January 15, 2008 at 9:41 pm

    I am watching the debate as well, if for no other reason than to see what benign statement of hers is twisted into a vicious attack on the soul and character of Obama, spread by the media, and lapped up by the fanboys and Sullivan (although that may be painfully redundant at this point), and then debated here by folks like yourself who claim there is nothing out of the ordinary, that Hillary really is race-baiting and running a vicious campaign.

    Ed’s post was clear- Cohen was spreading a nasty rumor for Clinton, who is ultimately to blame for al lthe antics of her supporters. It is the same crap I have been watching for a month now, and what has me pulling my hair out is that I really don’t care for Hillary.

    Obama’s folks have a plan leaked of theirs about how to play the race game, Jesse Jackson Jr. clearly brings up race games in an interview, and somehow it is the Clinton group who is race-baiting because Bill said “fairy tale” and “kid.” I seriously feel like I am in bizarro world.

  67. 67.

    Harley

    January 15, 2008 at 9:59 pm

    Well, I’ll agree with you’re last sentence. You are in bizarro world. Second, we’re inching toward agreement — but I’ve got a card game to get to, so maybe you could step it up to feet or yards? Cohen may have spread a nasty rumor. And he may have spread it as a Clinton supporter. But Captain Ed at no time, not once, not even close, puts the blame for this on the woman you are currently draping yourself upon. (Ick.) That doesn’t mean some Obama supporters are doing exactly that. That doesn’t mean Jesse Jackson Jr. is anything other than a thinwit. That doesn’t mean the Obama team put together a memo about racially insensitive statements (many of which, IMO, were not).

    But — and let’s stroll back briefly to your post, the source of this back and forth — there is not a shred of evidence in Captain Ed’s post or in your tortured fisking of it that suggests it is yet another example of the fanboy nonsense that has driven you into Hillary’s fecund embrace. (Ick.)

    And the best part of the debate was when the guy stood up in the audience and called out Russert for asking stupid fucking questions that have nothing to do with what the American people both need and want to know about any of them.

    Well, except for the halo that shimmers over Obama’s head. They already know about that.

  68. 68.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 10:00 pm

    Hillary’s comment in no way demeaned MLK nor took anything away from what he achieved. Her point was that it took a president to show at least enough courage and strength to push needed change into law. MLK himself could not achieve that. He held no office. I agree with Hillary’s observation. It was not a big-deal comment.

    No, the comment in itself was fairly benign. The decision to make that comment is loaded in information, none of it reflecting well on the Clinton campaign.

    So Obama lays down this platform of hope… If people like John Cole are right, then this isn’t a big deal in itself. We’re waiting for Obama to put the lid on the frosting and give us the cake… right?

    Then why all the defensive maneuvering against “hope”? If it’s a non statement, then certainly the rejection of it is a non-statement. If it is a statement, why does “hope” have to be rejected? You can’t let the platitudes just sit pretty? And why would you tell people “lower your standards, vote for me”? (I know she didn’t say that outright, but that’s where the implication leads).

    The entire gig of it, assuming an intelligent decision was made here, was to expend effort to quash this guy (lets not forget, he’s apparently not even a blip).

    And in order to quash a single junior senator, you have to bring up Martin Luther King? Perhaps one of the greatest examples of American perseverance and right action, and he’s an appropriate tool to use for “fuck that guy, he’s conning you”. Differing in magnitudes, much?

    It shows me, without reaching, that:
    a.) Hillary can’t handle competition, much less a fair fight
    b.) Everybody’s accomplishments pale in comparison to the Presidential race. (Whether or not that involves *her* desire for the office is a conclusion I don’t have the information to reach)

    Oh, reminder: I don’t work for the Obama, or any other, camp. I’ve retained my right to keep all neural mechanisms active. That includes the right to still vote for Hillary later if I’m confident she’s more stable than Obama. It’s still a toss-up.

  69. 69.

    Tsulagi

    January 15, 2008 at 10:25 pm

    What a crock of shit.

    Gee, but now I have a tear in my eye for Obama. I’ll try not to transcend it too quickly.

  70. 70.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 10:51 pm

    What a crock of shit.

    I am agape! You have convinced me! I have obviously been spending this time not crafting arguments that reflect the world I see presented before me. Nay, I have been trying this entire time to convince the literally millions of Balloon Juice readers to simultaneously register Democrat and apply their easily-won, barely-pondered primary votes to Obama, the Great King.

    I must be so befuddled to think that my reservations about the gravity of the Executive Branch kept me from showering my man-love on The One True Pony. How wayward, I, for not witnessing the truth; lo: to be in the messianic presence of the televised Obama truly places you firm in his soul and his message! Transcendentalism! Transcendentalism! Transcendentalism!

    tl;dr: WTF u doin on the internets if you not gonna say anything useful? GTFO newb.

  71. 71.

    myiq2xu

    January 15, 2008 at 10:56 pm

    So Obama lays down this platform of hope… If people like John Cole are right, then this isn’t a big deal in itself. We’re waiting for Obama to put the lid on the frosting and give us the cake… right?

    Then why all the defensive maneuvering against “hope”? If it’s a non statement, then certainly the rejection of it is a non-statement. If it is a statement, why does “hope” have to be rejected? You can’t let the platitudes just sit pretty? And why would you tell people “lower your standards, vote for me”? (I know she didn’t say that outright, but that’s where the implication leads).

    You’re making it hard to accept that you are arguing in good faith and not trolling.

  72. 72.

    myiq2xu

    January 15, 2008 at 10:58 pm

    I must be so befuddled to think that my reservations about the gravity of the Executive Branch kept me from showering my man-love on The One True Pony. How wayward, I, for not witnessing the truth; lo: to be in the messianic presence of the televised Obama truly places you firm in his soul and his message! Transcendentalism! Transcendentalism! Transcendentalism!

    What time does the meds cart come by?

  73. 73.

    Tsulagi

    January 15, 2008 at 11:04 pm

    I am agape!

    I would caution against being agape near any Republican. You never know what they’d try to fit in that hole.

    Your previous comment got all the response it deserved. However, your last one gave me a good laugh. Okay, it was just a chuckle. I’m trying to be nice and get all in the spirit of “hope.” Thanks for the chuckle.

  74. 74.

    myiq2xu

    January 15, 2008 at 11:10 pm

    I would caution against being agape near any Republican. You never know what they’d try to fit in that hole.

    Isn’t “agape” a form of love?

    Per Wiki:

    Agape is one of several Greek words translated into English as love.

    Gives that comment a whole new meaning, don’t it?

  75. 75.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 11:11 pm

    You’re making it hard to accept that you are arguing in good faith and not trolling.

    Now, see, this is closer to what I’m looking for, but you should really poke at something in my argument. Like: what is it that makes you think I’m not serious? I see:
    1.) Obama all “hope hope hope hope happy happy joy joy”, which no one (intelligent) would expect makes for a campaign platform
    2.) Clinton says “watch out for false hope!”
    3.) Flag on the play. False start. 5 yard penalty.

    Obama wasn’t even taking shots at her when she pulls out the weirdness, not mention how she decided to pull it out.

    If I’m wrong, show it to me. Don’t just claim it.

    What time does the meds cart come by?

    I don’t need meds! I only realize now, off my “rationality pills” that I’m beholden to my noble steed, Transcendentalism Pony!

    If I say Transcendentalism while riding him, the election no longer happens, and I don’t have to make arguments for my observations! I can just sit back and have a beer with my favorite bar buddy, the last person a blatantly casual population elected to office! He has a funny name!

    “dub ya” hee hee. I wonder where he came up with that one!

  76. 76.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 11:17 pm

    You never know what they’d try to fit in that hole.

    Two points awarded.

    Your previous comment got all the response it deserved.

    Are you claiming I’m not arguing in good faith? Do you REALLY think I have a Transcendentalism Pony?

    If I’m arguing in good faith, then try and correct me.

    What I think none of you people are getting is that I EXPECT TO BE WRONG sometimes. I don’t get to go out and read all the position papers, don’t get to meet these people. Don’t get to scream at Hillary for being overreactive; don’t get to scream at Obama for not disseminating the policy. I have to work hard like everyone else.

    I get cut off. Fucking help me out here.

    What do you think I’m in here for? The Glory of being The Most Awesome Dude on Balloon Juice?

    What do I get if I win? Do I get to sleep over at John Cole’s house? Do I get any hola fruta?

  77. 77.

    ThymeZone

    January 15, 2008 at 11:32 pm

    What do you think I’m in here for? The Glory of being The Most Awesome Dude on Balloon Juice?

    Go for it. The position is open until filled :)

  78. 78.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 11:37 pm

    Go for it. The position is open until filled :)

    Err, thanks… but… no, thanks?

    Something makes me think that would interfere with my paycheck .

    And my employability.

    And my familial relationships.

  79. 79.

    myiq2xu

    January 15, 2008 at 11:40 pm

    The position is open until filled

    I’ve been fired?

  80. 80.

    Tsulagi

    January 15, 2008 at 11:43 pm

    Isn’t “agape” a form of love?

    Gives that comment a whole new meaning, don’t it?

    Yeah, I thought of that, and for a moment considered going snark that direction. But see, I’m really trying to be nice and hopeful here. So I took that usage of “agape” as an adjective.

    agape: 1. open-mouthed. With the mouth wide open, usually in surprise or wonder.

    Would you want to be near a Republican SoCon with your mouth wide open? Waiting for the surprise? Hence my warning. I’m getting so freaking nice it must be the spirit of The Transcender descending upon me.

  81. 81.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 11:47 pm

    I’ve been fired?

    Is that how you learned about his “reading room”?

    If you’re not comfortable talking about it, I have a therapist’s number. Good guy. Started giving me these pills after kindly telling me I had to shut the fuck up about my pony or he would murder me in my sleep.

    myiq, Off the topic that’s not even active: Do you have any legal stuffs I can see that would lead me to believe that Empty Flightsuit can actually be prosecuted state-side for war crimes? If you can, it would certainly be the coolest thing I heard in the last week month.

    /me leans back
    /me thinks about Bush in a dark prison cell
    /me giggles like a male programmer poorly impersonating a schoolgirl

  82. 82.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 15, 2008 at 11:49 pm

    I’m getting so freaking nice it must be the spirit of The Transcender descending upon me.

    No, that’s just the mescaline we spiked your drink with. The pony’s tears are pure mescaline!

    What, did you honestly think there was common ground between Red-State Americans and Blue-State Americans? HAH! Oil and water, my friend. Only the tears of the Pony can make Americans like each other.

  83. 83.

    myiq2xu

    January 16, 2008 at 12:04 am

    Do you have any legal stuffs I can see that would lead me to believe that Empty Flightsuit can actually be prosecuted state-side for war crimes?

    For starters:

    Charles I (19 November 1600 – 30 January 1649) was King of England, King of Scotland and King of Ireland from 27 March 1625 until his execution.

    Charles famously engaged in a struggle for power with the Parliament of England. He was an advocate of the Divine Right of Kings, and many in England feared that he was attempting to gain absolute power.

    After the Second Civil War against Parliment (led by Oliver Cromwell) Charles was subsequently captured, tried, convicted, and executed for high treason.

    This established the precedent that kings were not above the law.

  84. 84.

    incontrolados

    January 16, 2008 at 12:06 am

    Caidence, boil it down for me — I’m tired and quite lazy.

    What is the problem?

    I know it’s asking a lot and I’ve gotten some idea, but,could you would you with a in a tree?

  85. 85.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 16, 2008 at 12:10 am

    This established the precedent that kings were not above the law.

    OK, I’ve heard a lot about applying common law, but this is where I get confused. I thought the whole idea of applying civil law was do get away from messy common law. How often is it that a lawyer can whip out common law and start smacking people with history lessons?

    And how easy is it? I’m imagining that it’s tons harder than a delineated civil law…

    I’ll stop asking now, because if I keep asking questions I’ll look like an idiot.

  86. 86.

    incontrolados

    January 16, 2008 at 12:13 am

    I see. It’s not going to happen. GWB is going to live on his ranch in Uruguay or Paraguay, much like Salinas escaped to Ireland. No prosecution, should it happen, will touch him.

    He’s gone. He’s done. It’s not going to happen.

    If the South Africans can come to terms with what happened in their country, ours is stupid enough not to go through the process that is necessary.

    ‘Conservatives’ like John and Hypatia (who you all may know better as Mona) can rage all they want. It’s not going to happen. Ask the Mexicans.

  87. 87.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 16, 2008 at 12:15 am

    Caidence, boil it down for me—I’m tired and quite lazy.

    What is the problem?

    People won’t vote for Obama! And I have this really pretty pony that everyone likes to pet, but still that doesn’t convince them that Obama is worth a thousand angels!

    OK, seriously? People ain’t trying to knock me down. I build up these arguments that look halfway sane; and the masses are all bitching about the conclusions but too lazy to do anything about it. And this makes me fucking BORED.

    How about it? Wanna take a crack? I’ve written tons of stuff in this thread alone; something has to be wrong. COME ON, HIT ME!

    first rule of Balloon Juice is, you don’t talk about Balloon Juice
    second rule of Balloon Juice …

  88. 88.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 16, 2008 at 12:20 am

    I see. It’s not going to happen. GWB is going to live on his ranch in Uruguay or Paraguay, much like Salinas escaped to Ireland. No prosecution, should it happen, will touch him.

    Oh, you meant that.

    myiq and I were screaming at each other over the intargoogles in a previous thread about what would be prudent action on torture policy post-WarCriminal McLandscaper. My argument hinged on a lack of ability to prosecute him, and myiq poked a hole in it and then left the thread. I’ve been blue-balling ever since.

    So I’m bugging him now.

  89. 89.

    myiq2xu

    January 16, 2008 at 12:21 am

    How often is it that a lawyer can whip out common law and start smacking people with history lessons?

    It’s a daily occurance for me.

  90. 90.

    myiq2xu

    January 16, 2008 at 12:23 am

    I’ve been blue-balling ever since.

    TMI

  91. 91.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 16, 2008 at 12:23 am

    He’s gone. He’s done. It’s not going to happen.

    … and that was my argument, but I argued that he was safe state-side, and would be fucked internationally.

    myiq is arguing that he’s not going to do so hot in federal court either. Which, if true, would be worth all the porn in the interboobles.

  92. 92.

    incontrolados

    January 16, 2008 at 12:25 am

    OK, I hear you. I’ve got a job and it has taken me until this late hour to come here. Sorry.

    I thought you were someone that you aren’t. It happens.

    I can’t stay here for long, but I understand.

    I am in a different position from you. I am one of those less publicised people who support John Edwards.

    It is useless to argue for Obama here. Completely useless. John is new to this democratic way of thinking and Hypatia (Mona) charming though she wants to be, is not helpful.

    Hold your own and stand your ground. I think we may be allies soon — if I have read you correctly.

  93. 93.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 16, 2008 at 12:29 am

    It’s a daily occurance for me.

    LIGHTNING ROUND: So if we’re not talking about this in the press, is the reason:
    a.) The press is really that stupid
    b.) The press is blindly focusing on the elections
    c.) The press has a low expectation for a case to make it to trial
    d.) I’m impatient, everyone knows he’s fried except me, and the press is just biding their time.

    (This is the thing that makes me think it’s not going to happen. No press, no catalyst, no national focus, no national trial, no national execution)

    (ok, so I’m a little overkill on that last one)

  94. 94.

    incontrolados

    January 16, 2008 at 12:31 am

    You both should look at the way things are handled in the the Americas.

    Torture has been exported from the US to the other Americas for freaking YEARS. Torture will only break through here in the the US when it is used against white folks.

    Deal with the country we have.

    Bush goes south, muchlike Salinas went to Ireland, and there you have it.

    Hypatis is Mona — if you didn’t know.

  95. 95.

    myiq2xu

    January 16, 2008 at 12:35 am

    I see. It’s not going to happen. GWB is going to live on his ranch in Uruguay or Paraguay, much like Salinas escaped to Ireland. No prosecution, should it happen, will touch him.

    He’s gone. He’s done. It’s not going to happen.

    If the South Africans can come to terms with what happened in their country, ours is stupid enough not to go through the process that is necessary.

    I don’t really expect to see Chimpy behind bars either, because he’ll have loyal Bushies like Fredo fall on their swords first, thereby cutting off the trail to the Oval Office. Not to mention the 24/7 shred-a-thon that’s been going on at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and Darth Cheney’s secret undisclosed location.

    But there are a lot of Scooter Libby’s out there that can be caught and waterboarded.

    What I want the most is for these crimes to be exposed, even if they go unpunished.

    Drag this shit out into the light of day so there will be no doubt, and make sure these cockroaches never return to positions of power.

    Exposing their crimes may alao get the law changed to keep it from happening again.

    G-Dub won’t escape one judgment though, the judgment of history.

    WORST PRESIDENT EVER

  96. 96.

    incontrolados

    January 16, 2008 at 12:35 am

    Caidence — it is the way thing work out on this continent — unless we change it.

    Look to South Africa. (not central Europe)

    There is a way out.

  97. 97.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 16, 2008 at 12:35 am

    I am in a different position from you. I am one of those less publicised people who support John Edwards.

    Despite knee-jerk opinion, I am hardly concerned with who supports who. Just hoping that people are keeping tabs, being critical.

    It is useless to argue for Obama here. Completely useless.

    That’s just fine by me. I’m just pushing people on what I see. Not like this is the lounge of the DC Sheraton; we are not elites, we do not affect the election.

    Hold your own and stand your ground.

    Someone that gets it. Cool :)

    I think we may be allies soon—if I have read you correctly.

    I’m around and can’t shut up to save my life, so you can’t miss me.

  98. 98.

    myiq2xu

    January 16, 2008 at 12:36 am

    a.) The press is really that stupid

    Is there really any doubt?

  99. 99.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 16, 2008 at 12:37 am

    Hypatia is Mona—if you didn’t know.

    /lightbulb goes off

    You mean Mona Charen? If so, I understand the warnings.

  100. 100.

    myiq2xu

    January 16, 2008 at 12:38 am

    I’m around and can’t shut up to save my life, so you can’t miss me.

    I had the right to remain silent, but I didn’t have the ability – Ron White

  101. 101.

    Fwiffo

    January 16, 2008 at 12:39 am

    Christ, I don’t even like her, but I have never seen such an over-the-top effort to trash someone as I have seen launched at Hillary the past few weeks.

    For those without Hillary Derangement Syndrome, it’s been 16 years of this crap. Vince Fucking Foster.

  102. 102.

    incontrolados

    January 16, 2008 at 12:40 am

    DUDE it is not going to happen.

    Look to the Mexicans. They had it way worse. I was there when Salinas left. My money tripled in value in one day. John asks, “How can this happen?”

    Grow a life, John.

    IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

    The next prez will have a shit storm on his/her hands. Can we not FOCUS on that?

    By doing so, all of the Republicans are out to lunch.

  103. 103.

    incontrolados

    January 16, 2008 at 12:43 am

    No, Mona libertarian and sock puppet for Glenn Greenwald, though she never learns.

  104. 104.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 16, 2008 at 12:44 am

    doubt?

    no… no, not really.

    Can that be fixed? Specifically: Is there reason to believe there will be a serious and independent push to bring criminal suit against Bush?

    Also, can this be done away from DC Appeals? Considering they’ve decided to be complete patsies, I don’t think they’d be helpful. Is this SCOTUS’s jurisdiction?

    (arg, another question) How easy is it to toss an Appeals appointment? DC Appeals has be freaking scared. Can they get tossed for being negligent in interpreting the law (as Scott Horton alleges)?

  105. 105.

    harley

    January 16, 2008 at 12:46 am

    is it obamaniacal to point out that Hil straight up lied about bob Johnson tonite?

  106. 106.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 16, 2008 at 12:51 am

    Exposing their crimes may alao get the law changed to keep it from happening again.

    Would like to note that, this part of my argument hasn’t changed. I still think it’s extremely important to get someone in office who will set the correct tone. There’s a whole lot of stunningly-deficient people who don’t know why torture is bad. They’re going to need a leader to grab them by the hair and shove their nose in it.

    If we just elect a person seeking revenge (which Hillary has been classified for, but I’m not sure yet), then torture will go from right-wing vanguard to left-wing vanguard. And the wholly retarded 30% on the left (think Greenpeace members with corporation-phobias and B-12 deficiencies) will then be decrying “terrorist” bankers and oilmen.

    All because nobody said “torture is always bad”.

    But still, criminal prosecution would be fun :)

  107. 107.

    myiq2xu

    January 16, 2008 at 12:55 am

    (arg, another question) How easy is it to toss an Appeals appointment? DC Appeals has be freaking scared. Can they get tossed for being negligent in interpreting the law (as Scott Horton alleges)?

    Federal judges serve for life, subject to “good behavior.”

    I have to go, I have court in the AM

  108. 108.

    incontrolados

    January 16, 2008 at 12:56 am

    Find Mona here. I don’t know why she changed her name, but just be aware that Hypatia/Mona is a libertarian, not a Democrat.

    Take that how you will.

  109. 109.

    incontrolados

    January 16, 2008 at 12:59 am

    here

  110. 110.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 16, 2008 at 1:01 am

    Federal judges serve for life, subject to “good behavior.”

    I have to go, I have court in the AM

    I was afraid of that.

    Thanks for keeping up with the questions.

  111. 111.

    incontrolados

    January 16, 2008 at 1:05 am

    CRAP

    Please understand the the US has not only sanctioned torture, but has trained people to torture. I have tried to tell you all that torture, the way it is now, is OUR product. Do you all truly think that using supositories was something the Arabs thought up? Seriously?

    Bush will go away. There will be no vengence.

  112. 112.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 16, 2008 at 1:06 am

    Find Mona here. I don’t know why she changed her name, but just be aware that Hypatia/Mona is a libertarian, not a Democrat.

    Take that how you will.

    Ahh, ok. Non-issue for me. I think it’s hard enough to find people acting in honest faith these days, so that’s pretty much my base line.

  113. 113.

    Pooh

    January 16, 2008 at 2:26 am

    I can sort of see how he makes the jump, but does John not realize that deranged clinton haters and Obama “fanboys” are quite often not the same people (in fact seldom are, since the healthiest dose of CDS is still on the right, and not close)?

    Do the Jane Hamsher’s of the left have an opinion.

  114. 114.

    Pb

    January 16, 2008 at 3:01 am

    Regarding Obama vs. Clinton, etc. — yeah, this is stupid. You know, despite all this bullshit of late, Obama and Clinton called something of a truce, would it be too much to ask that others do the same? FYI and shit.

  115. 115.

    Harley

    January 16, 2008 at 3:38 am

    Okay, I’ll give up, too. And it’s simple. When asked a direct question about Bob Johnson, Hillary lied. And it wasn’t a necessary lie, it wasn’t a situation where it would have been difficult to offer some mild criticism and move on. It was simply an example of why so many people can’t stand her — becuz after eight years of GW Bush, the last thing they want or need is another politician who would rather lie than admit error or appear weak or at an even momentary disadvantage. Even when it’s obvious that the lie will be revealed. Even when there is really no need to tell it. And yes, Johnson is an ugly footnote in this, nothing more. But this is not the exception with her, it’s the rule (her changing story about her opposition to the Iraq War is not a footnote).

    Pb’s call for a truce is a not to much to ask of anyone. And I’m guessing the truce between Hillary and Obama’s supporters will hold (okay, I’m hoping). But if anyone is still wondering why people get a little goofy when it comes to Obama, I think the answer is actually pretty simple. Right or wrong, they look at him and believe he will play the game differently.

  116. 116.

    glasnost

    January 16, 2008 at 8:59 am

    I rarely speak here, John, but I think you’ve jumped the shark. There are several disparate things happening, which you are weaving into a whole:

    #1: Obama’s supporters (I am one) think the Hope Thing is for real (or at least potentially politically effective)

    #2: The right wing says a lot of nasty crap about Hilary Clinton.

    #3: Hilary Clinton’s surrogates have been talking some ridiculous trash about Barack Obama. On purpose? accidentally? I really freaking doubt the second one, but it’s possible. Andrew Sullivan is hard on HC for no good reason – except he’s *right* about her. These people hold confrence calls every day, do you really think these people dropping reference to Obama’s drug use are accidental?

    #4: Obama’s supporters have pushed back against the trash talk by shaming. In with shaming the trash talk, they’ve also shamed some relatively innoccuous statements. What exactly do you think Obama & his camp *should* do? Should they adopt their stump speech to say, “Gosh, HRC is right, I’m a rookie faux-liberal Uncle Tom token black man, but I really wanna be president Reeeeally bad! Elect me please! or hilary!”???

    #5: John Cole notes the confluence of #2 and #4. Suck it up, man. Life isn’t fair. More than that, there’s a reason why they trash HRC more than Obama – *****Obama is a better and more charismatic politician*****. Right-wing-hate persists to a certain extent regardless, but the magnitude of the venom is ***not random***. It corresponds to HRC’s obvious character flaws – which aren’t terrible as a human being, but make her a **lousy politician who’s going to get trashed in office.**. That’s why I support Barack in the first place.

  117. 117.

    myiq2xu

    January 16, 2008 at 9:55 am

    Obama is a better and more charismatic politician

    Cough, cough, bullshit, cough, cough.

  118. 118.

    Pb

    January 16, 2008 at 12:11 pm

    myiq2xu,

    You could make a case for better or worse, but… Hillary, charismatic? I’ve heard people say that she can be in person, but past that, I’ve never seen it.

  119. 119.

    HyperIon

    January 16, 2008 at 4:48 pm

    I’ve heard people say that she can be in person

    how else is one charismatic?
    perhaps you mean one-on-one?
    is this a debate about when and where the candidate can be charismatic?
    SOME candidates have not a single charismatic bone in their body. Pb, you seem to say that DOES have charisma, but what? not 24-7?

    this is a very stupid discussion.
    you are driving me away from B-J.

    PS The Libertarian Mona used to post here as Mona. Why the change? Just wondering.

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