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You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / The Economic Stimulus

The Economic Stimulus

by John Cole|  January 23, 20089:56 am| 89 Comments

This post is in: Domestic Politics

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I am cranky today, so brace yourselves. I am officially sick and tired of hearing about economic stimulus plans, as it is my firm belief there simply is nothing the government can do at this point to stop what we have coming down the road. A 150 billion dollar stimulus is not going to do anything.

What they should be discussing is how we got to this point, and working on reworking the regulations and the regulatory agencies who are apparently asleep at the switch. I am not sure if people remember, but the real damage from Enron was the blind eye turned by the banks and the accounting firms. Once again, when you look at what has happened here, it appears that it wasn’t just a few shady agents writing bad loans- the whole system looked the other way. Everyone figured out how to get theirs and hoped they weren’t the one left standing without a chair when the music stopped.

If I were in the government, and I wanted to do something to make this looming disaster less painful, I would immediately begin to rewrite the rules so it is less likely bullshit like this happens again. Giving people a reason to feel confident about their investments is going to do more for the economy than the 150 billion handouts.

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Reader Interactions

89Comments

  1. 1.

    Bombadil

    January 23, 2008 at 10:00 am

    That kind of talk will put you straight in the cross-hairs of the Followers of Saint Ronnie. Don’t you know that the only things that will get us back on track are deregulation and lower taxes?

  2. 2.

    4tehlulz

    January 23, 2008 at 10:03 am

    can it be Glass-Steagall tiem nao plz?

  3. 3.

    r€nato

    January 23, 2008 at 10:03 am

    I too don’t understand the ‘need’ for economic stimulus plans; sounds like politicians wanting to look like they’re doing something about it, rather than a plan for any real relief.

    As for ‘rewriting the rules’, I’m not sure that’s necessary nor desirable. What we need is lenders to return to responsible lending standards and I think that’s happening. In fact it’s in part responsible for the current downturn. No more easy lending to help fuel consumer spending. The current crisis is going to continue until people figure out where all the pieces of Big Shitpile are hidden and marked down to their real value. I think the best that government/the Fed can do is make sure that credit markets don’t collapse entirely, and otherwise refrain from making things worse.

  4. 4.

    zzyzx

    January 23, 2008 at 10:05 am

    And this is why economic politics are cyclical. The Free Market is manic depressive and regulations are Prozac. Over medicate yourself, and every day is this dull, gray tedium. So you go start weaning yourself off of the meds, forgetting why they were valuable in the first place. So when you overshoot again and are standing on a window ledge, medication sounds like a good idea again. Rinse, repeat.

  5. 5.

    pharniel

    January 23, 2008 at 10:06 am

    in the free market everyone is free to do what they want. and there’s always someone bigger, stronger, faster and smarter than you.

    the problem with the ‘conservative’ and Libritarians is they think they’re smart and no one can get them.

    it’s sheer madness. but no one wants to address the systemic issues, because that’ll just piss offpoeple with lots of time and money.

    which the GOP can’t afford to do. THe democrats could, if they could weasel the AARP and some other powerfuls pecial intrest groups on thier side, but we all know how well the dems do at staying on message….

  6. 6.

    Zifnab

    January 23, 2008 at 10:08 am

    What they should be discussing is how we got to this point, and working on reworking the regulations and the regulatory agencies who are apparently asleep at the switch. I am not sure if people remember, but the real damage from Enron was the blind eye turned by the banks and the accounting firms. Once again, when you look at what has happened here, it appears that it wasn’t just a few shady agents writing bad loans- the whole system looked the other way. Everyone figured out how to get theirs and hoped they weren’t the one left standing without a chair when the music stopped.

    Regulation? Government oversight? Mandating responsible business practices? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

    Our economy can’t take that sort of strain, John! You’ll put companies like Citigroup and Bank of America out of business, costing thousands of people their jobs, all so you can create some sort of monsterous government bureacracy that will eat up your tax dollars and spit out red tape! Why, under a highly regulated and overwatched financial system, I would never have had the opportunity to pick up this 3% ARM (that balloons to 15% in 3 months and costs me $50k to get out of in penalties alone) and this sprawling McMansion (who’s price just dropped by half), or racked up tens of thousands in credit card debt that I will never be able to pay off in my lifetime. You’d put the stack in the limp heart of the US economy with rules like that, John! Death of capitalism! Destruction of the American Dream!

    All so you can sleep well at night knowing the economy isn’t going to have these minor hiccups once every eight years.

  7. 7.

    pharniel

    January 23, 2008 at 10:11 am

    also need to figure out a way to tax heavily those ‘golden parachutes’ that ceo’s keep getting for behaving irresponsably.

  8. 8.

    Punchy

    January 23, 2008 at 10:14 am

    I cant haz my $800 ducats?

  9. 9.

    stickler

    January 23, 2008 at 10:17 am

    Well, no matter what the right policy might be, the one ironclad rule still remains true until 1/21/09: a shithead lives in the White House, and he has a relentless knack for always making the wrong choice and sticking to it tenaciously.

    His lickspittle zombie acolytes in the Senate will still be there to gum up the works on any sensible legislation in any case.

    So that being true, we’ll be damned lucky to even get the $150 billion stimulus package — let alone common-sense fiscal reform (repealing the oil company tax handouts, say). And the world financial markets can go take a flying leap while Mr. Deciderator stamps his foot and holds out for some new craziness.

  10. 10.

    SenderC

    January 23, 2008 at 10:20 am

    I want another $300 check from the president, just like I got in 2001. I’ve spent $297.63 and I need some more Chinese diglycol-flavored toothpaste.

  11. 11.

    Dennis - SGMM

    January 23, 2008 at 10:21 am

    Yep, that 150 billion will fix things right up. It’ll re-open the factories and mills of the Rust Belt. It’ll bring the textile industry back from overseas. It’ll restore the electronics industry and re-establish tech support call centers on American soil.

    Or, it could just be pissing in the wind.

  12. 12.

    wasabi gasp

    January 23, 2008 at 10:29 am

    Is that a social safety net in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

  13. 13.

    TR

    January 23, 2008 at 10:33 am

    If we blow that 150 billion on the domestic economy, doesn’t that mean we’ll have to leave Iraq a week earlier than we planned?

    Priorities, people. It’s all about priorities.

  14. 14.

    Steve

    January 23, 2008 at 10:36 am

    The Economic Stimulus Plan sounds kind of like a domestic version of The Iraqi Surge.

  15. 15.

    Lushboi

    January 23, 2008 at 10:36 am

    Yeah, but 800 bucks buys a lot of booze to drown the pain!

  16. 16.

    AkaDad

    January 23, 2008 at 10:46 am

    If I were in the government, and I wanted to do something to make this looming disaster less painful, I would immediately begin to rewrite the rules so it is less likely bullshit like this happens again.

    This, my friends, is Liberal fascism.

  17. 17.

    The Other Steve

    January 23, 2008 at 10:53 am

    And this is why economic politics are cyclical. The Free Market is manic depressive and regulations are Prozac. Over medicate yourself, and every day is this dull, gray tedium. So you go start weaning yourself off of the meds, forgetting why they were valuable in the first place. So when you overshoot again and are standing on a window ledge, medication sounds like a good idea again. Rinse, repeat.

    This is brilliant.

  18. 18.

    zzyzx

    January 23, 2008 at 10:56 am

    I’m glad someone likes it. I’ve floated it a few times in various forums over the years :)

  19. 19.

    The Other Steve

    January 23, 2008 at 10:58 am

    I listened to a fascinating conversation this morning on the radio between the chief economist at Wells Fargo and an economist at Rutgers.

    At one point the Wells Fargo economist noted that the US presently has a weak dollar strategy.(I did not know this was a purposeful strategy) The result of the weak dollar strategy was to make our exports more attractive, and it’s been a success.

    While I do agree with that point, where I am baffled is that these same people also argued that we shouldn’t restrict companies like Wal-Mart and/or foreign imports of cheap quality, because it was better for the US economy if people had access to buy these cheap products.

    Well now with the dollar falling, those products ain’t cheap any more.

    Anyway, I’m still amazed that he acknowledge the US has a weak dollar strategy.

  20. 20.

    EmanG

    January 23, 2008 at 11:00 am

    Since Enron was mentioned, did anyone notice the little gift SCOTUS gave to big biz yesterday?

  21. 21.

    Punchy

    January 23, 2008 at 11:01 am

    I’d prefer an electronic stimulus

    Signed,
    K-Lo

  22. 22.

    EmanG

    January 23, 2008 at 11:03 am

    Sorry, here’s that link

    See John, we do try to be good…

  23. 23.

    EmanG

    January 23, 2008 at 11:05 am

    Screw it, it’s on C&L. I’m off to read the “post a link” primer again…

  24. 24.

    The Other Steve

    January 23, 2008 at 11:07 am

    US dollar = 1.02 canadian
    .68 Euro
    .51 GBP
    7.23 Chinese yuan
    105.7 Japanese Yen
    24.7 Russian Ruble

    These are all quite lows. The Yuan used to be at $8.5 to the dollar. I remember when the Yen was trading at say 120 to a dollar. The Ruble hasn’t changed much, it used to be over 25 to 1.

  25. 25.

    TheFountainHead

    January 23, 2008 at 11:07 am

    The Economic Stimulus Plan sounds kind of like a domestic version of The Iraqi Surge.

    Simple. Elegant in its Truthiness. I like it.

  26. 26.

    cleek

    January 23, 2008 at 11:08 am

    hmm $300 per person, from the Presidnet, in an election year…

    if i was cynical i’d say someone’s trying to buy a little good will.

  27. 27.

    Ron Beasley

    January 23, 2008 at 11:17 am

    It’s like everything else the politicians do. They all know it’s not going to help but it makes them look like they are doing something. It’s like the entire Homeland Security farce – frisking old ladies at the airport make it look like they are protecting us.

  28. 28.

    Zifnab

    January 23, 2008 at 11:21 am

    Since Enron was mentioned, did anyone notice the little gift SCOTUS gave to big biz yesterday?

    Horray for lack of accountability!

    You’d think Wall Street would like that a little less than it does. If someone told me, “The company you invested in can devalue its own assets, sell out, run off with your money, and its all perfectly legal”, and I was a broker, I’d be a little pissed. If I remember correctly, it was actually Merril Lynch leading the charge against Enron book keeping way back in ’01, specifically because the company was so disgusted at getting taken for a ride like that.

  29. 29.

    Jake

    January 23, 2008 at 11:25 am

    Once again, when you look at what has happened here, it appears is blindingly obvious that it wasn’t just a few shady agents writing bad loans – the whole system looked the other way.

    Slightly altered for anyone who might still be in the “no one could have possibly foreseen” phase.

    Everyone figured out how to get theirs and hoped they weren’t the one left standing without a chair when the music stopped.

    This needs to be repeated over and over and over…

  30. 30.

    Robert Johnston

    January 23, 2008 at 11:25 am

    Well, rule number one for avoiding situations like this is to tax and regulate. Taxing the shit out of short-term capital gains is the best way to avoid speculative bubbles such as the currently imploding housing bubble. Regulating mortgage backed bonds to assure that the bond issuer always has wide power to renegotiate mortgages, including negotiating reductions in principle, in lieu of foreclosing is how you prevent a foreclosure cascade as prices start to drop and people get nervous. Automatically treat mortgages as unsecured loans in bankruptcy if home purchasers weren’t offered the best terms for which they qualified. Do the same for mortgages that reduce a homeowner’s equity to something below 20%.

    In other words, any efforts to avoid similar problems in the future will have to wait for a new administration that isn’t reflexively antitax and antiregulation.

  31. 31.

    TheFountainHead

    January 23, 2008 at 11:30 am

    You know it’s bad when the Thai Baht is at 31 to the dollar. Especially when you consider that they have been DELIBERATELY trying to keep it above 40 to 1 for years. They just can’t devalue their own currency fast enough to keep up with our plunge.

  32. 32.

    Sensitive Pony Tailed Girly Man

    January 23, 2008 at 11:56 am

    Rebates for everyone! Don’t worry, it’s not coming out of our Kids pockets, we’ve already picked them clean. We’re talking Grandkids, and if we can get those Tax Cuts permanent, then we’re talking about our Great Grandkids money. Who cares, Fearless Leader assures me that we’ll all be dead by then.

    Seriously though, the reaction to this just drives home how little is really going to change after the next Election.

  33. 33.

    TenguPhule

    January 23, 2008 at 12:05 pm

    “The company you invested in can devalue its own assets, sell out, run off with your money, and its all perfectly legal”,

    I expect to see a sharp rise in CEO homocides in the future.

  34. 34.

    TenguPhule

    January 23, 2008 at 12:06 pm

    In other words, any efforts to avoid similar problems in the future will have to wait for a new administration that isn’t reflexively antitax and antiregulation.

    In other words, never gonna happen until the Revolution comes.

  35. 35.

    Zifnab

    January 23, 2008 at 12:12 pm

    Seriously though, the reaction to this just drives home how little is really going to change after the next Election.

    I think you underestimate exactly how bad it is right now. You’ve got administrative departments staffed with people who are doing the exact opposite of what their offices were founded for. Civil Rights administrators hacking away at civil rights. EPA regulators fighting against environmental protection regulations. Justice Department lawyers inventing new ways to break the law.

    The problem is that simply restoring our government to proper functionality won’t make all the bad shit we’ve piled up in the last eight years go away. We’ve got too much baggage for that. And the minority party isn’t interested in winning office anymore. They’re deliberately sabotaging the government because this is the new scorched earth party philosophy of “if we can’t have it, neither can you”.

    The next President is going to have a monster of a mess to clean up. So pathetic and sad.

  36. 36.

    wasabi gasp

    January 23, 2008 at 12:14 pm

    800 bucks is jus’bout the right amount fer’a shotgun and some ammo.

  37. 37.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 23, 2008 at 12:17 pm

    What they should be discussing is how we got to this point, and working on reworking the regulations and the regulatory agencies who are apparently asleep at the switch. I am not sure if people remember, but the real damage from Enron was the blind eye turned by the banks and the accounting firms. Once again, when you look at what has happened here, it appears that it wasn’t just a few shady agents writing bad loans- the whole system looked the other way. Everyone figured out how to get theirs and hoped they weren’t the one left standing without a chair when the music stopped.

    John, you’re obviously really stupid. Bush would never let the executive branch hold people accountable. Those people might not be his friends later! Come on, man, pay attention!

    as it is my firm belief there simply is nothing the government can do at this point to stop what we have coming down the road. A 150 billion dollar stimulus is not going to do anything.

    in my small experience in this field, when the storm is beating down the doors, nothing you can do will keep the market from panicking.

    But after the traders get a little rain on them, and they realize it could always be worse, they calm down a bit and start looking for their balance sheet.

    Now is panic time. You’re feeling it. It’ll pass.

  38. 38.

    Ninerdave

    January 23, 2008 at 12:21 pm

    The idiotic thing is the debate isn’t on whether there should be a economic stimulus package (in an election year giving money to the electorate is always a good plan even if we have to borrow it from China).

    The debate is on whether poor people should actually receive a check or not. You know the people who actually would spend the money. Assuming this will pass whatever, I get is going on my credit cards.

  39. 39.

    Ed Drone

    January 23, 2008 at 12:21 pm

    What you should not see, but are is Congress backing away from issuing contempt citations to Harriet Myers et al, simply because the president is making ‘happy talk’ about ‘cooperation’ and ‘bi-partisanship.’

    FEH! I’M DISGUSTED WITH THE LOT OF THEM!

    ‘Bipartisanship’ with this president is like dating your sister, and ought to engender the same feelings of revulsion among onlookers that incest does. Congress is going to settle for a pat on the head and a “good doggie” tummy-scratch from the master who otherwise kicks them repeatedly. We need a few more wolf genes among the members of Congress, sez I.

    BAH!

    Ed

  40. 40.

    Face

    January 23, 2008 at 12:22 pm

    I’m gainfully employeed in a recession-resistant field. I’m about to get 8 benjis in the mail. Car almost paid for, credit cards got loose change, gettin laid when I need to. What’s the prob exactly?

  41. 41.

    Illuminancer

    January 23, 2008 at 12:36 pm

    Who cares, Fearless Leader assures me that we’ll all be deadRaptured by then.

    Fixed that for you.

  42. 42.

    STEVEinSC

    January 23, 2008 at 12:37 pm

    Well this meltdown is going to be icing on the cake, the piece de resistance for shrub’s legacy.

    “Osama ben Laden determined to attack…”, fuck up
    Catch Osama, fuck up
    War against Iraq, fuck up
    Katrina reponse, fuck up
    Rebuild NewOrleans, fuck up
    Global Warming, fuck up
    Peace in Middle East, fuck up
    Jobs for Americans, fuck up
    American good name, influence and prestige, fuck up
    Respect for the Constitution, fuck up
    Government for all the people, fuck up
    Honesty in govenment, fuck up

    And last but not least, the forte of the republicans, growth, the economy,and business FUCK UP, big time

  43. 43.

    bernarda

    January 23, 2008 at 12:40 pm

    Dems are such wimps. What is needed now is serious partisanship. For years the Rethuglican have never compromised or searched for bi-partisanship. For Dems it should be payback time. I wouldn’t give a Rethuglican Congressman the time of day.

    I propose a national “Bash a Rethuglican Day”. Well, actually I would prefer 365, but one special day to commemorate it.

  44. 44.

    Fledermaus

    January 23, 2008 at 12:43 pm

    The result of the weak dollar strategy was to make our exports more attractive, and it’s been a success.

    The only thing we export these days are dollars and bullshit securities. That’s what the whole trade deficit thing is about. We been selling each other cheap foreign crap for so long – it’s all we’ve got.

  45. 45.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 23, 2008 at 12:49 pm

    Dems are such wimps. What is needed now is serious partisanship. For years the Rethuglican have never compromised or searched for bi-partisanship. For Dems it should be payback time. I wouldn’t give a Rethuglican Congressman the time of day.

    I propose a national “Bash a Rethuglican Day”. Well, actually I would prefer 365, but one special day to commemorate it.

    Why is it that every Democrat thinks that having a spine means being partisan? They really have been taking lessons from the wrong people, haven’t they?

    When you have the option of beating your bratty kid bloody versus grabbing him by the arm and forcing him to acknowledge the difference between right and wrong… guess which one teaches the kid how to get shit done, and which one teaches him how to whine and cry more?

    Now, replace “kid” with “Republican”. And replace “cry more” with “write books called Liberal Fascists are Big Meanies”

    Now use your head.

  46. 46.

    The Other Steve

    January 23, 2008 at 12:50 pm

    Well, rule number one for avoiding situations like this is to tax and regulate. Taxing the shit out of short-term capital gains is the best way to avoid speculative bubbles such as the currently imploding housing bubble.

    I think you might be right on taxing short-term capital gains. I wouldn’t say taxing the shit out of it, but I’d certainly say taxing it at same rates as earned income. Only if you invest for the long term should you get a break.

  47. 47.

    Punchy

    January 23, 2008 at 12:52 pm

    Market just took another plunge

    Dow down 270, ‘Daq down an incredible 80. google and apple taking it ATM.

  48. 48.

    The Other Steve

    January 23, 2008 at 12:53 pm

    When you have the option of beating your bratty kid bloody versus grabbing him by the arm and forcing him to acknowledge the difference between right and wrong… guess which one teaches the kid how to get shit done, and which one teaches him how to whine and cry more?

    It’s kind of like when our puppy poops on the carpet. We take her by the collar, shove her nose in it and say “BAD DOG! BAD!”

    It works. She finds a different part of the house to poop in next time. Eventually we figure she’ll run out of carpets and stop trying to avoid going outside.

  49. 49.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 23, 2008 at 1:07 pm

    It works. She finds a different part of the house to poop in next time. Eventually we figure she’ll run out of carpets and stop trying to avoid going outside.

    I was hoping for a better technique than that. If we shove cryptofascists out of the Capitol, and then out of the White House, that means they go into the Supreme Court :)

    Can’t we just show them how decent humans behave? Either that or just give them life-terms in jail for being extraordinarily evil bastards?

  50. 50.

    Rick Taylor

    January 23, 2008 at 1:36 pm

    Unfortunately, the only answer is we need a new administration; expecting the Bush administration to learn from this and create effective policy as a result is like expecting. . . um, something really not likely to happen.

    Paul Krugman has been talking about an impending housing crises for years. He wrote this in May of 2005:

    But these aren’t tiny regions; they’re big and wealthy, so that the national housing market as a whole looks pretty bubbly. Many home purchases are speculative; the National Association of Realtors estimates that 23 percent of the homes sold last year were bought for investment, not to live in. More than 30 percent of new mortgages are interest only, a sign that people are stretching to their financial limits.

    The important point to remember is that the bursting of the stock market bubble hurt lots of people – not just those who bought stocks near their peak. By the summer of 2003, private-sector employment was three million below its 2001 peak. And the job losses would have been much worse if the stock bubble hadn’t been quickly replaced with a housing bubble.

    So what happens if the housing bubble bursts? It will be the same thing all over again, unless the Fed can find something to take its place. And it’s hard to imagine what that might be. After all, the Fed’s ability to manage the economy mainly comes from its ability to create booms and busts in the housing market. If housing enters a post-bubble slump, what’s left?

    After Enron, there was a brief realization that we couldn’t expect the magic of the free market to poliice the markets. But then September 11 happened and that was forgotten.

  51. 51.

    Gus

    January 23, 2008 at 1:47 pm

    I’m sure someone has already made this point, but the “stimulus package” isn’t designed to help the economy long term. Dumbya’s hoping it will keep the shit afloat until he’s gone. The new recession (depression?) can then be safely blamed on a Democratic president and Congress.

  52. 52.

    Psycheout

    January 23, 2008 at 1:52 pm

    Clearly you have things a little confused here. We need less regulation, not more. It’s government interference that causes problems like this.

    The current problems prove that regulation of private free enterprise clearly doesn’t work. And you want more? C’mon!

    Let the free market decide. Get government out of the way!

  53. 53.

    jcricket

    January 23, 2008 at 2:00 pm

    You’ve got administrative departments staffed with people who are doing the exact opposite of what their offices were founded for.

    This is not news (no film at 11). It is the Republican strategy for the last 20 years, perfectly enacted at the highest levels. Remember the whole “clear skies act” or other complete double-speak from the Republicans in the 90s?

    And there’s nothing wrong with being partisan, shrill, angry or outraged in opposition to the plundering and economic ruin Republicans have dragged us into.

    Let’s alter that famous Reagan quote a little bit to make it more accurate:

    The 10 scariest words in the English language are “I’m from the Republican party and I’m here to help.”

    The opposite of Midas these guys are.

  54. 54.

    Dreggas

    January 23, 2008 at 2:05 pm

    wasabi gasp Says:

    800 bucks is jus’bout the right amount fer’a shotgun and some ammo.

    Actually they are cheap at Wal-Mart, so you can also get your canned goods and drinking water.

    It’s been nice knowing everyone, I will happily give you a ride in my car-converted-to-tank ala mad max when and if I can find you.

  55. 55.

    The Other Steve

    January 23, 2008 at 2:07 pm

    The new recession (depression?) can then be safely blamed on a Democratic president and Congress.

    It’s quite obviously Bill Clinton’s fault.

  56. 56.

    Walker

    January 23, 2008 at 2:17 pm

    When you have the option of beating your bratty kid bloody versus grabbing him by the arm and forcing him to acknowledge the difference between right and wrong… guess which one teaches the kid how to get shit done, and which one teaches him how to whine and cry more?

    Go check out the support groups for parents with sociopaths. They get tired of people telling them this type of stuff because, in their case, it never works. You are assuming a rational child capable and willing to recognize right and wrong.

    While there are some rational Republicans still in Congress, they are not the ones driving the party. Yes, it is like handling children, but it is like handling sociopathic children.

  57. 57.

    Zifnab

    January 23, 2008 at 2:19 pm

    I’m gainfully employeed in a recession-resistant field. I’m about to get 8 benjis in the mail. Car almost paid for, credit cards got loose change, gettin laid when I need to. What’s the prob exactly?

    I’ll take double digit inflation for $100 Alex.

  58. 58.

    Zifnab

    January 23, 2008 at 2:20 pm

    Actually they are cheap at Wal-Mart, so you can also get your canned goods and drinking water.

    It’s been nice knowing everyone, I will happily give you a ride in my car-converted-to-tank ala mad max when and if I can find you.

    Finally, you can wear 20 pounds of black leather and fit in with everyone else.

  59. 59.

    Dreggas

    January 23, 2008 at 2:24 pm

    Zifnab Says:

    I’m gainfully employeed in a recession-resistant field. I’m about to get 8 benjis in the mail. Car almost paid for, credit cards got loose change, gettin laid when I need to. What’s the prob exactly?

    I’ll take double digit inflation for $100 Alex.

    And those are the types who will be looking for the handout the minute their delusions are intruded upon by reality. Problem is when one card is pulled from the “house” the rest of the cards come down.

  60. 60.

    Egilsson

    January 23, 2008 at 2:37 pm

    I work in the insurance industry, and I’m firmly convinced that regulation is GOOD for business.

    It has to happen, and companies run better and do better if they don’t have to race to the bottom to compete against unethical companies – who can get away with it without regulation.

    Regulation, done right, is a win/ win. Republicans don’t believe in it, and don’t know how to do it.

    This is why it’s a joke when “business” people say they are republicans because of serious buisness people are republicans. They don’t know what they are talking about.

  61. 61.

    4tehlulz

    January 23, 2008 at 2:44 pm

    I’m gainfully employeed in a recession-resistant field.

    recession-resistant != recession-proof

  62. 62.

    Dreggas

    January 23, 2008 at 2:50 pm

    Zifnab Says:

    Finally, you can wear 20 pounds of black leather and fit in with everyone else.

    And blow shit up!

  63. 63.

    jcricket

    January 23, 2008 at 2:53 pm

    Regulation, done right, is a win/ win. Republicans don’t believe in it, and don’t know how to do it.

    There’s actual concrete evidence to back this assertion up. In trading/stock markets the better regulated ones have higher rates of investment and return (see NYSE/NASDAQ compared to AMEX). Investors like the transparancy and “reliability” that the regulations provide to them.

    When it’s too easy to game the system, most people figure they’ll lose, and take their money elsewhere.

    As you said, a “well-regulated” (where have I heard that phrase before…) business sector is better for everyone (workers, CEOs, the businesses themselves) except the corrupt, criminal and incompetent. Hmm, who might that describe?

  64. 64.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 23, 2008 at 2:54 pm

    Clearly you have things a little confused here. We need less regulation, not more. It’s government interference that causes problems like this.

    The current problems prove that regulation of private free enterprise clearly doesn’t work. And you want more? C’mon!

    Let the free market decide. Get government out of the way!

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA nice. Lets get you out of that silly straightjacket and into something a little less asylum-resident-looking.

    Try “Government regulation holds back a healthy market”

    See? Doesn’t that fit so much better? And it’s less stupid!

    Now check this little number: “Government regulation may be necessary in times the market fails to self-regulate”

    Now look at the final little piece: “Young investment vehicles (like Subprime) might fail to self-regulate, thus warranting government intervention to allow the new vehicle to mature, at which time the government should deregulate it to allow it to reach its full potential”

    Psyche-guy: you really need to learn how to troll better. You’re like a nekkid guy in a trenchcoat flashing some old-ladies in their 60s whose sex lives are long-since worn bare: We’ve seen it all before.

    Meanwhile, we’ve been reading the finance sites (and a couple of us do work in the industry), trying to grasp what component popped out of place, and you’re still trying the standard-issue talking points. Dork.

  65. 65.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 23, 2008 at 2:59 pm

    Go check out the support groups for parents with sociopaths. They get tired of people telling them this type of stuff because, in their case, it never works. You are assuming a rational child capable and willing to recognize right and wrong.

    While there are some rational Republicans still in Congress, they are not the ones driving the party. Yes, it is like handling children, but it is like handling sociopathic children.

    While I accept your analogy, did you forget that beating the sociopathic children still doesn’t fix the fact that the kids are fucked in the head? Why start firing weapons in the Capitol when you can instead start fixing up the country?

    I swear some of you are more concerned about the Big Meanies than running the country. You do know that when Bush leaves, half the world will still be hating on us, yeah?

    Ahoy, big problems head!

  66. 66.

    Dreggas

    January 23, 2008 at 3:05 pm

    bottom line business, as is the case, will not regulate themselves without laws enforcing regulation of behavior. We don’t kill our neighbor (even if we’d like to at times) because there are laws preventing this. Without said laws and regulations we would probably be neighborless (and all dead). Business has not and will not ever regulate itself environmentally or otherwise if it adversely affects their bottom line.

    Anyone saying otherwise obviously has not paid attention the past several years and forgets the robber-baron era.

  67. 67.

    Zifnab

    January 23, 2008 at 3:23 pm

    bottom line business, as is the case, will not regulate themselves without laws enforcing regulation of behavior.

    And why would they? Who follows rules that limit your profit margins when there are no penalties for violation? If I still score points in baseball by running straight from 2nd base to home plate, why would my feet ever touch 3rd?

    We don’t kill our neighbor (even if we’d like to at times) because there are laws preventing this. Without said laws and regulations we would probably be neighborless (and all dead). Business has not and will not ever regulate itself environmentally or otherwise if it adversely affects their bottom line.

    Regulations work because they are regular. If company A and company B both are held to the same business standards, then they can compete freely. If the two companies live by different rules, then the rule set that favors higher profits will reward the company in its niche. All else being the same, company A will prosper more quickly than company B, and eventually buy out / kill off the competition. Natural selection, baby. Who would volunteer as a dinosaur?

    Anyone saying otherwise obviously has not paid attention the past several years and forgets the robber-baron era.

    You repeat yourself.

  68. 68.

    Dreggas

    January 23, 2008 at 3:23 pm

    Dreggas Says:

    bottom line business, as is the case with humans, will not regulate themselves without laws enforcing regulation of behavior. We don’t kill our neighbor (even if we’d like to at times) because there are laws preventing this. Without said laws and regulations we would probably be neighborless (and all dead). Business has not and will not ever regulate itself environmentally or otherwise if it adversely affects their bottom line.

    Anyone saying otherwise obviously has not paid attention the past several years and forgets the robber-baron era.

    fixed.

  69. 69.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 23, 2008 at 4:01 pm

    bottom line business, as is the case, will not regulate themselves without laws enforcing regulation of behavior. We don’t kill our neighbor (even if we’d like to at times) because there are laws preventing this. Without said laws and regulations we would probably be neighborless (and all dead). Business has not and will not ever regulate itself environmentally or otherwise if it adversely affects their bottom line.

    Whoa… whoa there.

    There are no laws saying we can’t shit in the kitchen sink, so why don’t we?

    Same thing applies to most business. Your argument only holds when the business has reason to believe their shitting all over the place won’t come back to hit them. Of course, that’s more the exception than the rule. You need a VERY liquid sector to do that. Retail, for example, and of course, sub-prime.

    But other businesses take interest in good cooperation with the people they do business with because it’s the healthy relationship that make it profitable. At this place I’m now, we have a guy who’s entire purpose is to maintain the contracts we sign, because in the end, we need to do business with these guys. We don’t want to be taken to court, but we also don’t want them going out of business. Termination of service is termination service.

    Interruption of revenue flow is still bad.

  70. 70.

    Darkness

    January 23, 2008 at 4:10 pm

    Ron Beasley Says:

    It’s like everything else the politicians do. They all know it’s not going to help but it makes them look like they are doing something.

    If the legislature ever sat down to accomplish something that the KNEW would have an impact. I think they’d all pee their pants in panic.

  71. 71.

    The Other Steve

    January 23, 2008 at 4:19 pm

    Just to get an appreciation for the widespread impact of the mortgage problem.

    Sallie Mae just stated $1.6 Billion in losses. They’re claiming the increased cost of borrowing.

    Sallie Mae takes student loans and securitizes them into bonds. But they have to borrow money to buy the loans before selling them to investors. I’m going out on a limb, but they’re probably having a hard time borrowing the money, and also a harder time selling off the securities. I need to find their full statement, the two paragraph explanation wasn’t enough detail.

  72. 72.

    4tehlulz

    January 23, 2008 at 4:23 pm

    Dow is up 2.5%; love the analysis for why:

    Stocks ended sharply higher on Wednesday, snapping a five-day losing streak on optimism that regulators will keep afloat the biggest bond insurers and ease concerns about the outlook for the financial sector.

    lol, the Street expects Sugar Daddy Uncle Sam to bail out the financial sector.

  73. 73.

    jvill

    January 23, 2008 at 4:41 pm

    4tehlulz Says:

    Dow is up 2.5%; love the analysis for why:

    Stocks ended sharply higher on Wednesday, snapping a five-day losing streak on optimism that regulators will keep afloat the biggest bond insurers and ease concerns about the outlook for the financial sector.

    lol, the Street expects Sugar Daddy Uncle Sam to bail out the financial sector.

    Well, yes. As we all know, welfare isn’t for poor people; it’s for the guy who’s got to make payments on his $5 million Upper East Side apartment and put way too much of his cash in a financial instrument he didn’t understand.

    I don’t know much about mortgage bundling regulations (or whatever we call these things), but I do know one thing:

    No way in hell do we want President Cuckoobananas anywhere near the creation of any more laws in this country. Next thing you know, the big Financial Reform Bill of 2008 will include spending on sending monkeys to Pluto and approving the use of small nuclear arms for home pest exterminators.

    We’d all be better served if Laura just got the man drunk and locked him in his room until January 2009.

  74. 74.

    4tehlulz

    January 23, 2008 at 4:46 pm

    Substitute Uncle Sam with New York State…..

  75. 75.

    ThymeZone

    January 23, 2008 at 4:55 pm

    A 150 billion dollar stimulus is not going to do anything.

    It is, if you pay it to me. For $150b I will abso-fucking-lutely guarantee you that good things will happen.

  76. 76.

    NonyNony

    January 23, 2008 at 5:23 pm

    Dreggas –

    bottom line business, as is the case, will not regulate themselves without laws enforcing regulation of behavior. We don’t kill our neighbor (even if we’d like to at times) because there are laws preventing this. Without said laws and regulations we would probably be neighborless (and all dead). Business has not and will not ever regulate itself environmentally or otherwise if it adversely affects their bottom line.

    Your analogy is off. There are many good reasons not to kill your neighbor even in the absence of laws saying “don’t kill your neighbor”. You might be afraid of his family coming for a revenge killing. You might not like the sight of blood. You might just feel that killing is wrong because you wouldn’t want to be killed yourself.

    On the other hand, corporations have to do what is best for the bottom line. It is in their mandate – a corporation that doesn’t do what is “best” for its investors will end up in court – and “best” doesn’t mean looking out for the health of the long term economy. Best means looking out for ways to make more money for the people who invested – no matter what it takes. That means that in the absence of laws restricting their behavior they actually have a LEGAL obligation to do things that regular human beings might find reprehensible or even stupid – they may actually “shit in their sinks” (so to speak) if it means making more money for their investors because they’re required to do it.

    This is one reason why regulation is so important – and why you’ll see smart people who understand finance (like, say, Warren Buffet) as some of the biggest advocates for good, even-handed, transparent government regulation. It keeps things steady, levels the playing field, and cuts off the perverse incentives for doing things that are disastrous for the country but good for a single CEO or group of investors. Bottom line – a truly free market NEEDS good regulation to stay free.

    Too many people think “The Market” exists as some abstract ideal that society needs to serve, rather than as a tool for society to use. The latter implies the need for good regulation (sometimes lighter, sometimes heavier depending on the market sector), while the former suggests that if we just turn it into an every-man-for-himself free-for-all the “market will make it work.” We’ve had too much of the “free-for-all” for the last 30 years and now it’s come around to bite us all in the ass.

  77. 77.

    Zifnab

    January 23, 2008 at 5:39 pm

    On the other hand, corporations have to do what is best for the bottom line. It is in their mandate – a corporation that doesn’t do what is “best” for its investors will end up in court – and “best” doesn’t mean looking out for the health of the long term economy. Best means looking out for ways to make more money for the people who invested – no matter what it takes. That means that in the absence of laws restricting their behavior they actually have a LEGAL obligation to do things that regular human beings might find reprehensible or even stupid – they may actually “shit in their sinks” (so to speak) if it means making more money for their investors because they’re required to do it.

    Well, and again, there you have the joke. If you can turn a profit by shitting in your sink, no regulation exists prohibiting you from shitting in your sink, and I – as your shareholder – can sue you for NOT shitting in your sink, explain to me how this isn’t a regulation MAKING you shit in the sink.

    Now, admittedly, I’ve never heard of anyone getting sued for failing to adhere to unethical business practices. But then my legal experience is fairly limited.

    And here, coming back to Telecomm Amnesty, is why you need a strong and transparent rule of law. AT&T didn’t reap any real benefit from letting Bush conduct illegal wiretaps. Qwest certainly didn’t have any trouble flipping the White House the bird, initially. But Bush successfully strong armed the Qwest C-level staff, and this put the fear of god in everyone else. After he sicced the IRS on Qwest, I honestly have to feel sorry for the Telecomms to a degree. They were in a shitty spot. Break the law or get railroaded by a rogue Justice Department.

    If the system, in general, was more iron-clad, AT&T would have had more reason to fear eavesdropping laws and less reason to fear Bush’s thugs. And they would have done what was in their best interests – which just happens to be what would have been the right thing to do.

    The grand lesson in all of this is that you need strong, well-enforced laws on the books and in force. Regulation, when properly enforced, keeps itself in line. But once you start chipping away at the edges, the whole system has the chance to get flushed away.

  78. 78.

    essaynnc

    January 23, 2008 at 6:08 pm

    I personally think that congress works on whatever problem is the hottest/ most in-your-face RIGHT NOW, with little concern for how important the issue is, but more importantly, no thought given as to how long-term the solution might really be. So we end up with everyone running in circles, and the real problems never being addressed or solved.

    Why in the world would we want to give everyone $800 to spend on more foreign made crap? Heck, all that money would just go out of the country anyway. How about instead we spend it on infrastructure right here in the good old usa? Or maybe put a bunch of money into energy independence here at home? Put people to work, and really have something to show when all the money is gone.

    Here’s one of the most well-thought-out ideas I’ve seen in a long time, especially the suggestions near the bottom of the article:

    http://carolynbaker.net/site/content/view/290/

  79. 79.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 23, 2008 at 7:06 pm

    OK, I like this convo, but there’s some shaping to be done.

    That means that in the absence of laws restricting their behavior they actually have a LEGAL obligation to do things that regular human beings might find reprehensible or even stupid

    I’m happy to say NonyNony, that that’s not completely true. You get fired for failure to turn a good profit. You get sent to jail for willing breach of duty, like taking off with the shareholder’s money to do something not in the company’s general interest.

    And here, coming back to Telecomm Amnesty, is why you need a strong and transparent rule of law. AT&T didn’t reap any real benefit from letting Bush conduct illegal wiretaps.

    AT&T had a couple of benefits:

    – Technology advantage: they got government support to catch up to the NSA’s level of data monitoring. This leads to

    – Working with the RIAA et al. who have been handing out money to anyone that can keep them from having to get a real job

    – Also, the government has been paying for these services. AT&T was of free mind when they were approached by the gov’t. AT&T could have said “no” and waited for the psychotic Congress to pass a law saying AT&T were commies. They’d probably do it, too.

    The grand lesson in all of this is that you need strong, well-enforced laws on the books and in force.

    It’s so sad you had to state that like it’s not obvious.

    Regulation, when properly enforced, keeps itself in line

    This isn’t true. Regulation is an artificial construct. It’s like a cast on an arm. Great when you have an exception like a broken arm, itchy when the arm is almost healed, and completely obnoxious when the arm is A-OK. Same thing with regulation. Not always useless, but if you can get rid of it, you should look into it.

  80. 80.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 23, 2008 at 7:11 pm

    It is, if you pay it to me. For $150b I will abso-fucking-lutely guarantee you that good things will happen.

    You don’t get shit, because you’d probably put in the bank, you sicko KOS-fellater.

    We give you money, you deliver it to Wal-Mart for us. Get it?

    You get back plastic kitchenware with an American flag painted on it in top-quality SupraLead(tm) paint. See, it’s rewarding to be a Citizen. So do your duty.

  81. 81.

    ThymeZone

    January 23, 2008 at 7:15 pm

    You get back plastic kitchenware with an American flag painted on it in top-quality SupraLead™ paint.

    No good, I already have that, I use it every day.

  82. 82.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 23, 2008 at 7:33 pm

    No good, I already have that, I use it every day.

    OK, you get 4 boxes of Monopoly and 5 boxes of Special Edition The Game Of Life, where the numbers 2-through-10 have been removed from the dial, the car is a ’77 mustang, and 75% of the children have leukemia.

    /irony-tastic.

  83. 83.

    Chuck Butcher

    January 23, 2008 at 10:58 pm

    Hey, Caidence, it is illegal to hire people without papers, I’ve been getting my ass handed to me for 6 years thanks to the total non-enforcment of that law. My legal employees are getting their asses handed to them for the same reason. I don’t play on an even field, I play on a field tilted by the cheats.

    Reasonable regulation evens the field and restricts the extent of damages, you think otherwise? Businesses don’t shit in their sinks, they shit in everybody else’s sinks, that’s what your libertarian bent seems to miss. My sink is badly shit in, illegal hiring and now a busted construction market, you can go piss up a rope with that idea. I mean that seriously.

    Money spent on actual work would mean something versus another payday for WalMart. But BushCo understands bribes and fearmongering.

  84. 84.

    TenguPhule

    January 23, 2008 at 11:26 pm

    You get sent to jail for willing breach of duty, like taking off with the shareholder’s money to do something not in the company’s general interest.

    Unless you’re a CEO, then they just give you a pension and a couple hundred million dollars.

    Oops!

    Regulation is an artificial construct. It’s like a cast on an arm. Great when you have an exception like a broken arm, itchy when the arm is almost healed, and completely obnoxious when the arm is A-OK. Same thing with regulation. Not always useless, but if you can get rid of it, you should look into it.

    Only if you’re a complete fucking moron. I hope you spoof this, because if you actually mean it you need a serious slap to the back of your head to get some brain cells active.

    We have seen what happens when businesses are not regulated.

    They fuck people. They fuck any attempt at competition or innovation that threatens their bottom line.

  85. 85.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 24, 2008 at 10:12 am

    Hey, Caidence, it is illegal to hire people without papers, I’ve been getting my ass handed to me for 6 years thanks to the total non-enforcment of that law. My legal employees are getting their asses handed to them for the same reason. I don’t play on an even field, I play on a field tilted by the cheats.

    It’s not Regulation’s fault that there’s such a thing as “illegal” workers, now, is it? The artifical construct in that case is the unnecessary division of classes because White People don’t want dem Brown People coming ‘cross da bohdah.

    Regulation in that case is an artificial construct working to assist another artificial construct.

    It would be better to give those “illegals” papers and then force them to obey the same regular laws you do, no?

    But nooooooooo, they’re BROWN.

    Lack of Regulation isn’t your enemy here.

    We have seen what happens when businesses are not regulated.

    You didn’t read my post about 20 upwards. Businesses fuck people only in liquid markets when their cheating can’t back to hit them in the ass naturally.

    Most businesses are stuck working in limited relationships, where they can’t just fuck some partner over, pick up, and find a new partner. Most businesses play fair because they have to.

    Keep off the insults unless you’re paying attention, eh?

  86. 86.

    Egilsson

    January 24, 2008 at 12:26 pm

    Caidence, I think this thread is dead now, but you are just making stuff up. There’s no proof at all that’s how businesses work.

    It’s a theoretical construct only, balanced against ample evidence of what happens when there’s waayy too much deregulation. Businesses will end up racing to the bottom and everyone suffers badly as a result. The purpose of GOVERNments is to avoid these things because it is actually better for the citizens of our country if it does so.

  87. 87.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    January 24, 2008 at 1:00 pm

    but you are just making stuff up

    Jesus christ, can’t you people argue intelligently against something without being a dick about it?

    It’s a theoretical construct only, balanced against ample evidence of what happens when there’s waayy too much deregulation. Businesses will end up racing to the bottom and everyone suffers badly as a result. The purpose of GOVERNments is to avoid these things because it is actually better for the citizens of our country if it does so.

    Theory is where it starts, for one thing.

    Another thing, you can’t account for everything, either, so theory is the best you can rely on. You can’t look at Wal-mart and tell me the plumbing outlet down the street acts the same way. You also can’t survey every outlet, contractor, retail store, so on, so stop acting like the shit you hear about is the full picture. Stick to the theory and handle the exceptions as they come.

    And finally, there’s nothing that says government is a requirement, it just seems that way lately. We maintain it as a society to operate on issues we agree need extra help. If we think something needs work, we get together an make a plan and an appropriate exception for the issue (crime is an exception, not a intentional feature of life, ya know?). But the default condition of business is to get two businessmen work it out like adults.

    In a perfectly balanced economical system, businesses can’t get away from their own dishonesty. Their lies harm others which in turn harm them back later. We erect regulations only for those situations where there’s a lack of balance.

    Unfortunately, because we don’t understand how to make national and global economies efficient (you know, still kids huffing shit in Uganda?) we’re using government to hack it out.

    That doesn’t mean government is an absolute requirement. It means we use some of it right now. Get off it.

    Oh, and stop acting because I’m saying that the default case is no-regulation, that I’m for no-regulation always. You people need to learn to comprehend better.

  88. 88.

    Egilsson

    January 24, 2008 at 3:35 pm

    Jesus Christ, you’re the dick, dick.

    Your posts read like you were an anti-regulation moron, so I was even more polite than I should have been, given that you are an anti-regulation moron and all.

  89. 89.

    TenguPhule

    January 25, 2008 at 11:57 am

    Businesses fuck people only in liquid markets when their cheating can’t back to hit them in the ass naturally.

    JFCNTZYM, did you fail American history or just not take it as an elective? Businesses will fuck with people in ANY market if they can get away with it. Or to be more precise, the upper management will try anything it can get away with (and even stuff it can’t).

    Most businesses are stuck working in limited relationships, where they can’t just fuck some partner over, pick up, and find a new partner. Most businesses play fair because they have to.

    See labor market. See international market. See made in China/Mexico…etc.

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