I have experience in enough fields (evolution, genetics, climate) to know that when a reporter writes about more or less anything other than reporting he will inevitably get some important things wrong. Learning the business of journalism is hard enough without also having to memorize economics, statistics, genetics, evolutionary biology and the fine details of the Thai textile business. Beat reporters eventually pick up fundamentals through experience and long contact with people who do know things, but more often reporting is a business of passing information from non-specialist writers to readers who know even less.
When blogging comes up the problem usually usually goes from bad to weird. Reporters and bloggers, especially leftwing bloggers, have a certain cat-and-dog relationship (the deal with rightwing bloggers often seems like something more like codependence) so it can be hard to distinguish lack of knowledge and personal agenda. Joe Lieberman, for example, brought out the worst in them. Via Thers, here’s your example of the day:
But notwithstanding this stunning success, this week’s withdrawal by John Edwards, coming a week after the departure of Dennis Kucinich, means that both of the preferred presidential candidates of the liberal blogosphere are now out of the race.
Which liberal blogospere supported Kucinich? Kos and most of the Kossacks despised him. The rest of us mostly dismissed him as a quirky nonentity. If the nomination race was a movie Kucinich would be Steve Buscemi.
It gets easier to connect dots into a handy trendline when you get to make some of them up.
As to the larger point, arguing against the influence of the liberal blogosphere by now is so much pissing in the wind. The liberal blogosphere has been crucial to everything from killing Social Security privatization and kicking Joe Lieberman out of the Democratic party to ’06 netroots candidates like Jon Tester and Jim Webb. We haven’t won yet on telcom immunity but the issue wouldn’t even be an issue anymore if the liberal netroots hadn’t given Chris Dodd the support he needed. There is no question that blogosphere left has dragged the Democratic leadership in all kinds of directions that it clearly didn’t want to go.
It isn’t out of weakness. As a party we’re winning, and unless bin Laden knocks both coasts into the sea along with most of the mountain west the massacre in November will be almost painful to watch*. The Democratic leadership is listening to us because they have to. They hate it, especially Harry Reid, but they don’t have much choice.
For a fun time consider how the article would read if you swapped in ‘left’ for ‘right.’ How did the rightroots candidates do this cycle? Depending on the rightwing blog you have Rudy Giuliani, at $50 million for one delegate the most embarrassing failure in presidential politics history. Mitt Romney, still hanging on by the skin of his vast fortune. Fred Thompson, saviour, slept through the race and pulled out by email. Duncan Hunter, Tom Tancredo and Ron Paul all had significant backing from different constituencies on the right. Lumped together they had traction like a Yugo on ice.
The rightroots obviously didn’t just fail to influence the presidential election. They have collectively failed to make any meaningful impact on Republican politics at all. I can’t think of a single major issue where they forced the GOP to move its agenda towards something that the leadership didn’t want to do anyway. But hell, don’t listen me. Let’s hear what TownHall has to say.
Even some conservative bloggers object to the new blog activism.
“If you look at the top tier of right-wing bloggers, they’re almost unfailingly civil,” wrote Dean Barnett for the opinion Web site Townhall.com.
He charged that Erickson was trying to turn right-wing Web sites into “the kingmakers that the left-wing blogs are.”
That word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
Anyhow, kudos to Ron Klain for writing an insightful article with only a few words misplaced.
***
(*) No it won’t. It will be fucking hilarious, and I hereby promise to get roaring drunk and liveblog it.
Pb
Speaking of straw, according to the Daily Kos Straw Poll, I’d say that Edwards was definitely the preferred presidential candidate of the liberal blogosphere. Past that, there was Obama, and briefly Dodd, but Kucinich was polling at or behind Hillary’s numbers, and she was generally in the single digits herself. So, yes, I concur. :)
Dennis - SGMM
Yes, the civility of Michelle Malkin is an example to us all.
demimondian
I’ve read a lot of articles like that, articles which are nothing but attempts to distract attention from the facts by making a lurid but false claims. That the New York Times has finally sunk to the level of Right Wingnuttistan is sad, but hardly surprising — they share an aristocratic disdain for the hoi polloi.
The big difference is that the Grey Lady collects all her money and power from selling to them while condescending to them publicly. By contrast, the Republican Party collects all its money from them while…doing the same thing.
A different matt
If journalists wanted to do a fair article on the lefty blogs they’d go back and read their critiques from 2005 and acknowledge how much the blogs have since accomplished in such a short time.
The real story, I think, is in how much more effective the blogosphere (and am radio) are at creating brand loyalty, mobilizing audiences, and getting people to buy into ideas than Madison ad marketers.
Zifnab
Ok, a couple things on that.
Firstly, there were some serious scares within the Republican Party this cycle – from victory of Huckabee in Iowa to the continued presence of Ron Paul in Republican debates. Paul didn’t gain any establishment support – I don’t know a single mayor or congressman who endorsed him – but he did swing the perspective around in the party itself. While everyone was fighting for what it ment to be a “real conservative” “like Reagen”, Ron Paul was living out the ideology. I think he’s a small ripple that can turn into a big wave given time.
Huckabee himself didn’t receive massive netroots support. But he did get a groundswell of support from evangelicals, the real Republican base. So the net Democrats propped up their candidate – Edwards – and the net Republicans propped up their candidate – Paul – and they both got shot down. I still think Paul did damn well among his peers. Compared to Hunter or Tancredo and especially the laughing stock 9ui11ani, he was miles ahead of the race.
Secondly, Republicans have been lead around by the nose on immigration for the last five years. I know it’s not a “netroots” issue nearly as much as it is a xenophobic rural old white KKK issue, but it does speak to how the base has influenced the party. Certainly, Karl Rove was not pimping hispanic bashing as the central front in the War On Democrats. Gays? Sure. Muslims? Definitely. Latinos? Oh god no, what are you doing?! In this sense, the people bucked the party hard.
That the Republicans aren’t listening to their base may speak to the growing exodus of party loyalists. But its worth noting that both party bases have managed to exert pressure on their leadership. Rightwing pressure just happens to come from off the tubes.
MJ
Would you mind providing examples of this?
Brachiator
Huh? Influence with respect to what? Is Bush still in the White House? Is waterboarding still going on? Is the US Attorney’s office still neutered and politicized? Is Bush still governing, uh, I mean, ruling, via recess appointments, signing statements and stubborn defiance? Is the FCC still attempting to hand out fines for dirty words and brief glimpses of skin?
Didn’t Bush pretend that he had ever made a promise to rebuild New Orleans during his last State of the Union speech, which also saw him defiantly reiterate every significant ideological stance that has defined his administration?
I fail to see how the liberal blogosphere, or liberal politicians, have had a significant impact on government or policy during the Bush Administration.
The main issue here is that liberals, from the blogosphere to the press, TV and radio, to government officials, have at best been little more than a fitful opposition to the Bush Administration. At worse, they fail to meaningfully make a case for any alternative, and simply fall back on the nebulous and empty claim that they are “progressive.”
This is somewhat circular, and misses the larger point that the rightroots, along with a number of pundits and right-wing media people (Hewitt among others) have collectively decided that they would simply support the Bush Administration no matter what, and make themselves into an conservative echo chamber. This kind of thing is reinforced by the decision of various right wing media folk to periodically accept invitations to the White House, where they are given all kinds of “off-the-record” talking points which they then shamelessly turn into “topics” that supposedly represent their own views, but which are little more than blatant ideological cheerleading.
You are also not fully noting the fractures within the GOP. For example, the Wall Street Journal recently dumped on Mitt Romney, largely because they are open-borders. This is an obvious spit in the eye of McCain haters and those conservatives who apparently believe that empty-suit Mitt somehow represents some kind of neo-Reagan conservative purity. Supply-side conservatives, having exploited evangelicals, are now finding that it is difficult to suppress religious Republicans’ expectation that the state be transformed into the church.
By the way, the story has yet to be written as to how Bush was able to keep the disparate ideological wings of the Republican Party from breaking apart during his presidency.
The liberal blogosphere has been somewhat more consistent, but also consistent in their impotence.
Tim F.
Do you have a problem with the several examples that I did provide?
myiq2xu
Left Blogistan would be more effective politically if we were unified and moved in lockstep on each issue.
But then we wouldn’t be Left Blogistan.
cbear
Asswipe writes stupid article.
Non-asswipes debunk.
Did I miss anything?
Tim F.
Again, please read the post more carefully. What do you think was the context of the Dean Barnett quote? The righty blogs have tried several times to force the GOP leadership to listen to them and every time the leadership has completely shut them out. For example, the House leadership fight after Tom DeLay left. The ‘circularity’ comes from a few righty blogs trying to make a difference, getting hammered down like a squeaky nail and verbally abused for their efforts. The rest learned the lesson and, voila, here we are.
Llelldorin
Actually, under a certain definition (the favored one by right-wingers), right-wing blogs are civil. The problem is just that they define civility as “not using rude words.” Thus, from their point of view, calling for the castration of their political opponents is perfectly civil, as long as no-one gets too specific about which bits get lopped off.
The rest of us simply disagree with the “Carlin’s Seven Dirty Words and grep” theory of maintaining civility.
myiq2xu
Calling their opponents traitors, cowards, faggots and other derisive and derogatory words is okay too.
It’s also quite civil to create new terms like “Canadian” to substitute for uncivil words like the “N-word.”
MJ
If that’s all you have Tim it doesn’t really make your point very well. They have had very little influence, perhaps they will have more down the road but not as of yet.
wvng
Add to Tim’s list the US Attorney firings scandal, and all of the related issues regarding politization of the DOJ as a netroot’s driven story that changed the narrative and forced Congressional hearings. It would not be a stretch to say that, in the last 4 years, virtually every instance of Dems pushing back against Bush and his reThugs has either been initiated or substantively enabled by the netroots.
Brachiator
Read it. The right wing blog is not a monolith. Some try to get the GOP leadership to listen and get shut down. Others willingly go along and demonstrate an oddly bellicose conformity. The high or low point in this was the Terry Schiavo case, where right-wing blogs decided to ignore, logic, precedent and the facts in order to press their case.
Later, various right-wing bloggers vehemently praised Harriet Miers as the bestest Supreme Court nominee ever.
And of course there are still bloggers who write about how there were WMD in Iraq, how waterboarding is not torture, and on and on.
Perhaps my view here is primarily a matter of emphasis. The GOP leadership decided that it was important to support Bush and to maintain Republican power in Congress. Period. Listening to bloggers is not a priority. Some right wing bloggers continued to squeak, but a larger number decided to go along.
To put it another way. Bloggers don’t matter. Voters do.
Tom in Texas
Gotta tell you this has been a part of the restaurant industry for at least the 15 years I’ve been in it. Certain people simply don’t tip. It’s not just African Americans (although they are the most extreme example), it’s Europeans, hillbillies — people who don’t understand that (at least in TX), a server lives ENTIRELY on their tips, and actually supports other restaurant staff with them as well.
Tim F.
Asserting something dozens of times won’t make it true. If you take one single example, telcom amnesty, it is simply undeniable that pressure whipped up by the blogosphere kept the Democratic leadership from caving immediately. Josh Marshall has personally scalped Trent Lott, spearheaded the successful pushback on Social Security and lit the candle under the US Attorney scandal. No amount of denial on your part will change that.
Brachiator
I have no argument with Josh Marshall’s efforts on the points that you have noted here.
However, I just have to ask: have any fired US Attorneys been re-instated? Have all of the political attorney appointments been removed? Has anyone actually been punished for this (apart from the indirect departure of the former attorney general)? Has the president formally been rebuked for his role in this? Has any Republican Congressman been voted out of office for supporting the president on this?
Has any GOP presidential candidate denounced the Bush Administration over its role in the US Attorney mess, or promised to act differently if elected?
And meanwhile, of course, the rightwing blogosphere fell back on defending the idea that the president could appoint whomever he wanted to the US Attorneys office, without regard to competence, the most amazing defense of cronyism from people who claim to be all for hard-headed meritocracy.
I give Marshall and others some style points for containment, here, but little for prevention or correction.
myiq2xu
If you think the left blogosphere is ever going to be a single unified entity you’re dreaming. We’re too decentralized and cantankerous to ever act like Wingnuttia.
But the blogosphere has been instrumental in disseminating information and stories ignored by the lap dog media, like the US attorney scandal.
It has also helped to generate grassroots pushback on issues like FISA, and to raise money and support for non-establishment candidates like Ned Lamont.
But we’ll never be the kind of place that the right blogosphere is. People will never visit Balloon Juice to find out from John Cole what the official talking points de jure are.
(Sorry John)
The Other Steve
Oh, it’s the old purity troll again.
The fact that is was brought to attention. The fact that Gonzalez is gone, the fact that AG’s like Paulouse are gone, means absolutely nothing. Because Bush hasn’t been impeached.
Whaaa whaaa whaaa whaaa
myiq2xu
Do you really think Fredo’s departure was “indirect?” If not for the USA scandal he would still be the AG, and he would still have Monica Goodling, Kyle Sampson and a few other now-departed “loyal bushies” with him.
The scandal had quite a bit to do with the sudden resignation of Turdblossom as well.
And since the scandal broke after the last election, it’s too soon to know if any GOP Congresscritters will be forced into retirement over the issue.
myiq2xu
What he said
wvng
Hey Brachiator. Josh gets style points? As every good liberal DFH would say, are you F&$@ing nuts? TPM’s original investigative reporting forced that story into a msm that wanted nothing to do with it, and the story became one of the defining narratives about an out-of-control, lawless administration. That led to Abu Gonzales’ disgraceful and embarrassing testimony that a number of reThuglican Senators publically found disgraceful, and eventually led to his departure.
With this administration’s lawless denial of accountability, anything is a victory. And this was a netroots drive victory.
VidaLoca
Tim,
You make an interesting point here and in your citation of Josh Marshall above.
It’s easy after all these years of getting screwed and screwed and screwed yet again to adopt cynicism as a default position. Personally I find it almost reflexive — but as you point out, if it weren’t for the left blogosphere we’d be in a lot worse shape than we are. At least there’s some kind of a battle on; if it weren’t for the blogospheric left it would all be tits up. Also the fact is that, as disorganized chaotic and anarchistic as we are, there is not another force that’s as organized as we are. Now that is one frightening concept…
Why is any of this effective? I still think that writing as “A Citizen” to your congresscritter or Senator means slightly less diddly/squat — but perhaps their (sometimes misinformed, who knows?) perception that you’re writing as part of an organized, knowledgeable, committed and mobilized force on their left that they know abosolutely nothing about scares the crap out of them. And that’s why they’d rather go to the Yearly Kos rather than the DLC convention — they know exactly where they stand with the latter set of assholes; with the former they’re not so sure so they’re worried.
The people of Connecticut (and the DFH of the blogospheric left outside of Connecticut) came within an ce of pulling Joe Fucking Liberman off of his high horse. And Lieberman is toast, he has no career after 2012 if he lasts that long. What happens if the DFH get Chuckie Schumer in their sights? Or Rahm Fucking Emanuel? What happens to the DLC kingmakers then?
The main point that Klain gets right in his article is that the DFH don’t have the clout to compete in the national arena (though is some states they do have it). The main point he got wrong is he forgot to include the “yet…”.
VidaLoca
Silly myiq. They come here to see the talking points de jure snarked. Which we do better than anyone else (watch your damn backs, Sadly No! :)).
demimondian
Um, folks, I don’t think that John cares about the talking points as established by law (de jure). He’s much more interested in the talking points of the day (de jour), which are more pragmatic (de facto).
VidaLoca
uh, demi, I think it’s Tim posting here.
(Sorry, couldn’t resist…)
myiq2xu
Sorry, but I never learned to speak cheese-eating surrender monkey.
I guess that’s why the waitress looks at me funny when I ask what the soup de jure is.
demimondian
Yeah, I bet. But pity your poor colleague who asks for the soup de facto.
demimondian
Better still, despite my actually speaking cheese eating surrender monkey pretty well, it’s _du jour_, not _de jour_ (du = masculine singular definite possessive article)
demimondian
What are you, some kind of attribution Godwin?
Brachiator
Sorry, “The Other Steve.” You will never find a post from me anywhere, in which I have called for Bush’s impeachment. Nor can you find any post from me anywhere in which I insist on any kind of purity, ideological or otherwise.
Either you are ignorant or unable to read clearly. Or you just like to make things up.
This administration continues in its lawlessness and the notion that “anything is a victory” is just nonsense.
We have this recent news story:
The news story goes on to note that Reichle “has since been transferred to Guam.”
And this NYT Editorial from December 17:
And of course we have this January 24 news item:
Has any GOP presidential candidate been asked about this stuff in any of the debates? Apart from Mitt Romney’s insane promise to bring us in effect a “double Gitmo” with respect to “protecting” the country, much of the media has been tip-toeing around Bush’s egregious behavior here.
By the way, even though it might generate an interesting Constitutional battle, I think that Congressional Republicans could rein Bush in if they were really interested. But as I noted earlier here, the first priority of the GOP is to retain power, not to curb the lawlessness and the abject cronyism of this administration.
demimondian
Brachiator, if you’re demanding that everything get fixed *RIGHT NOW*, then, yes, you’re a purity troll. Trust us, around here, we know from trolls — TOS included.
The question is not “did Marshall fix everything”; he didn’t, and none of us is under any illusions about that. The question is [a] is he a part of Left Moonbattia (yes), [b] did he break the story (yes), [c] did he keep it alive (yes), and (d) did he and his readers make a difference with it (yes, through the documents they pulled out of the document dumps). Do I expect that he’ll keep the pressure on when the next administration comes in? Hard to say — but, if anyone will, TPM will.
Will a bunch of dems whine about getting in the way of more important business? Yes, probably so. However, they’ll still wind up with him, and kos, and atrios, and, yes, even Balloon Juice, continuing their clamor to not forget, and to investigate.
myiq2xu
Forcing out Fredo and Turdblossom was a huge victory. But it was only a battle, not the whole war.
The incident occurred in June 2006. The lawsuit is ongoing. How does it relate to this thread?
The blogosphere has had a lot to do with the fact that Spakovsky hasn’t been confirmed by the Senate and his most recent “recess” appointment has expired.
Same as above.
What does this have to do with the lefty blogosphere? Don’t you think kos, Digby or Josh Marshall would love to be the moderator for a GOP debate? Imagine the questions they would ask.
Pb
MJ,
Two words: Howard Dean.
Two more: FISA filibuster.
Chuck Butcher
While I agree with the idea that the blogosphere is pretty limitted in effect on the electorate, I do agree with Tim that on single issues the pressure can be huge. As much as some of the pols hate blogs, they Google. They have to, they know that if something starts rolling out here it can roll right onto MSM.
VidaLoca
Chuck,
I think you’re right that the blogosphere has a pretty limited effect on the electorate on a national scale. Locally (state, congressional level) the effect is more pronounced. Which is why the politicians look over their shoulders individually while they’re more dismissive of us collectively.
Brachiator
Odd comment, demimondian, since I have not made any such demand.
Even more odd that you would be able, with a straight face, to toss out an accusation of anyone demanding a fix “right now” when we have endured more than seven years of Dubya’s stubbornly persistent governing style, which consistently favors crooks and cronies. And even when he throws staff overboard, they have a curious way of showing up again (Wolfowitz, et al) or being in some ways worse than their predecessors (Gonzales, successor to John Ashcroft).
I never operate on “trust,” especially when dealing with people who ascribe words, ideas and positions to me which I have never stated, who seem to think that they are psychics who can discern to “secret message” embedded in my posts, and especially those who attempt to separate folks into “we” and “them others.”
Hell, this wasn’t a battle. It wasn’t even a skirmish. Bush policy has not changed. None of the GOP presidential candidates have declared that they will change the direction of the previous administration if elected. Although Obama has been more forthcoming on this issue, Hillary Clinton has been coy and dissembling.
Prove it.
That they aren’t debate moderators and have not influenced the questions asked is, for me, another sign of the relative lack of influence and importance of the lefty blogosphere. Note that I don’t think that the right wing blogosphere is particularly important either.
Egotistical and self-indulgent perhaps, but not particularly important or influential.
VidaLoca
Brachiator,
I don’t get where you’re trying to go with this argument.
Tim posits in his post that the left blogosphere has had some impact on some issues (social security, telecom immunity) and the 2006 election. Pb adds the FISA filibuster. The purpose is to offer examples in which Congress resisted some Bush initiatives which it would otherwise be expected to cave, and assign agency to the DFH. You respond that Bush himself remains stubbornly perverse. Of course he does but that’s not the point — the point is, have the DFH had any success in moving Democrats in Congress from their supine, cowardly, obsequious and complicit default position toward opposing him? What other handles are available? If you think there has been no success along that line, or if you think the success has been too negligible to merit discussion, or if you think the DFH don’t deserve credit, those are all points you could argue — and hearing your alternatives would be interesting too –but in the absence of that it does sound like you’re dissatisfied that it can’t all be fixed right now.
myiq2xu
That FAUX News isn’t hosting any Democratic debates is a sign of the influence of the lefty blogosphere.
So is Chris Matthews apology for Hillary-hating.
VidaLoca
Also — let’s be realistic about this. If the DFH have had any influence on politics at all in the last period it’s only been on public officials, in the political arena, because of the vote. As a Village Idiot, Mattews is immune from all that: getting to those people will take longer. We may one day see his head on a pike by the city gates but there will be a lot of other heads up there first.
Imus was a better example, but he made himself into a piece of low-hanging fruit and even he’s being slowly rehabilitated now that the storm has died down.
myiq2xu
I disagree. I don’t listen to Rush, and like most DFH’s I only heard about his Michael J. Fox comments due to the blogosphere. Those comments helped propel Claire McCaskill to victory.
The blogosphere has helped to expose BillO, Tweety, MoDo, Kristol and the rest of the Village Idiots, and has helped to promote KO. I don’t get MSNBC at home, and would have never heard any of his “Special Comments” and “Worst Person” clips except for C&L.
Brachiator
Tim overstates the influence of the lefty blogosphere and under-estimates the degree to which a significant segment of rightwing commentary, from bloggers to pundits, have decided to become supine propagandists for the Bush Administration, without regard to whether they are listened to by GOP leadership.
Of course, this is the point. From Iraq to tax policy to prohibitions against embryonic stem cell research, to a malignantly backwards AIDS policy in Africa and elsewhere, Bush’s policy positions are still in place. He continues to appoint like-minded ideologues, incompetents, and cronies. What the Democrats have “resisted” is paltry. And one of the biggest prizes, the Supreme Court, is now tilted towards the hard right and will obviously endure beyond the end of the Bush Administration even if the GOP is defeated in the November presidential elections.
There has been some success, but it is nothing to brag about. This is reinforced by the misdirection of the proposed economic stimulus package, for example, which distracts from a tax policy which is severely skewed towards capital gains as opposed to wages and interest income. And yet when Bush flaunts his ignorance of economics or the severity of the subprime mess by simple-mindedly saying that a fundamentally sound economy is just going through a rough patch, and Democrats scurry like rats to get on board the rebate train, well, as the ancient Greek king is alleged to have said, another “success” like this and we’re done for.
The battle for America is just beginning. We will see whether the lefty blogosphere is really up to it, and will have anything significant to contribute.