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You are here: Home / Politics / War on Terror / War on Terror aka GSAVE® / The Newest “Conservative” Position

The Newest “Conservative” Position

by John Cole|  February 5, 20088:47 am| 74 Comments

This post is in: War on Terror aka GSAVE®, Republican Crime Syndicate - aka the Bush Admin.

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Trying children as terrorists:

A Canadian accused of killing a U.S. soldier in Afghanistan should not be tried as a war criminal because he was a child soldier for al Qaeda, too young to voluntarily join its forces, his military defense lawyer told a U.S. war court on Monday.

Navy Lt. William Kuebler asked a military judge to throw out the charges against Canadian defendant Omar Khadr, who was shot and captured at age 15 in a firefight at a suspected al Qaeda compound in Afghanistan in 2002.

***

If the U.S. Congress intended to try children as war criminals, it would have explicitly authorized that in the 2006 law that serves as a framework for the Guantanamo court, Kuebler said.

But a U.S. Department of Justice attorney, arguing for the prosecution, said that if Congress intended to exclude juveniles from the Guantanamo war court, it would have explicitly written that, because lawmakers knew Khadr could face charges. Instead, Congress wrote the law using the term “person,” which legally refers to “anyone born alive,” Justice Department attorney Andy Oldham said.

There actually was a 60 Minutes piece on this kid a while back.

Obligatory snark: this is one of Don Rumsfeld’s “worst of the worst.”

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Reader Interactions

74Comments

  1. 1.

    Keith

    February 5, 2008 at 8:55 am

    the term “person,” which legally refers to “anyone born alive,”

    I expect that to be changed in future cases where the US govt maintains a person is anyone conceived. This has the two-fold advantage of saying “Hey, lookatus, we’re the Culture of Life” while also being able to imprison pregnant women and their unborn-yet-alive terrorist-spawn at Gitmo.

  2. 2.

    Jake

    February 5, 2008 at 9:00 am

    Jesus Christ. Gitmo Daycare Center.

  3. 3.

    Cyrus

    February 5, 2008 at 9:04 am

    I’m having flashbacks to the South Park movie.

    Khadr is the last citizen of a Western nation among the 275 captives being held at Guantanamo as part of the Bush administration’s war on terrorism.

    I wonder how old the other 274 are. Although I am pleasantly surprised that the number of people being held in Guantanamo without a trial is (apparently, reportedly) down to 275; it was in the thousands for a while, wasn’t it?

  4. 4.

    Jen

    February 5, 2008 at 9:05 am

    No one is as fervent as the converted, are they? Preach it, John!

  5. 5.

    Punchy

    February 5, 2008 at 9:20 am

    Instead, Congress wrote the law using the term “person,” which legally refers to “anyone born alive,” Justice Department attorney Andy Oldham said.

    So the Justice Dept. has gone on record as saying a fetus is not a person.

    Pass the popcorn.

  6. 6.

    The Other Steve

    February 5, 2008 at 9:27 am

    Why can’t we just treat someone like that as a POW?

  7. 7.

    The Other Steve

    February 5, 2008 at 9:32 am

    So the Justice Dept. has gone on record as saying a fetus is not a person.

    Good catch.

  8. 8.

    Mike

    February 5, 2008 at 9:52 am

    Here’s another worst of the worst.

  9. 9.

    D-Chance.

    February 5, 2008 at 9:55 am

    Jake Says:

    Jesus Christ. Gitmo Daycare Center.

    If you consider 20- or 21-year-olds ‘daycare’…

    the guy took up a gun in an al Qaeda (alleged) camp and fired upon US soldiers. So, Mr Cole, finish the post… what SHOULD we do with a teenage soldier who fires upon U.S. soldiers in an active wartime battle situation?

  10. 10.

    bago

    February 5, 2008 at 10:05 am

    Stick em in juvie and explain to them that machiso based drive bys aren’t acceptable, and that you are no longer the patron peasant of your regional warlord.

  11. 11.

    Jen

    February 5, 2008 at 10:09 am

    If you consider 20- or 21-year-olds ‘daycare’…

    Yeah! If you hold them long enough, they GET old enough. DUH!

  12. 12.

    bago

    February 5, 2008 at 10:09 am

    I mean what kind of a sick government conscripts children into the service allowing them to fight and die for their country while denying them the benefits of the choices of what substances to drink or people to have sex with.

    Zardoz?

  13. 13.

    Joey Maloney

    February 5, 2008 at 10:22 am

    what SHOULD we do with a teenage soldier who fires upon U.S. soldiers in an active wartime battle situation?

    Treat him as a prisoner of war, in accordance with the Geneva Conventions? Radical idea, I know…

  14. 14.

    libarbarian

    February 5, 2008 at 10:26 am

    Treat him as a prisoner of war, in accordance with the Geneva Conventions? Radical idea, I know…

    By 1945, the Germans were conscripting kids as young as 13. AFAIK this is exactly what we kid. Very radical indeed.

  15. 15.

    Evinfuilt

    February 5, 2008 at 10:27 am

    If you consider 20- or 21-year-olds ‘daycare’…

    Oh, you’re a smart one.

    So with your logic. If a baby holds a gun, we just have to hold him without trial for 21 years, and then prosecute him as an adult. Brilliant strategy.

  16. 16.

    GSD

    February 5, 2008 at 10:38 am

    I remember when Brave George Bush opened up the Iraqi jails and let those poor children out of Saddam’s bondage!

    Image what kind of cruel dictator would jail children?

    -GSD

  17. 17.

    jvill

    February 5, 2008 at 10:53 am

    Since it’s now OK to try the mentally immature for war crimes, when will we be getting around to President Nitwit? Apparently being a blathering idiot will no longer count as a credible defense.

  18. 18.

    Cassidy

    February 5, 2008 at 10:53 am

    Treat him as a prisoner of war, in accordance with the Geneva Conventions? Radical idea, I know…

    An EPW is not a captured member of a terrorist organization. It’s a captured member of an opposing army.

  19. 19.

    J sub D

    February 5, 2008 at 11:02 am

    Navy Lt. William Kuebler asked a military judge to throw out the charges against Canadian defendant Omar Khadr, who was shot and captured at age 15 in a firefight at a suspected al Qaeda compound in Afghanistan in 2002.

    If he had shot at a cop in a South Central Los Angeles drug raid, he’d be tried as an adult. Few would protest.

    Just sayin’

  20. 20.

    Jen

    February 5, 2008 at 11:07 am

    he’d be tried as an adult. Few would protest.

    At 15? I would protest. I would protest.

  21. 21.

    Jake

    February 5, 2008 at 11:19 am

    If he had shot at a cop in a South Central Los Angeles drug raid, he’d be tried as an adult. Few would protest.

    The practice of trying juvenilles as adults is getting a lot of push back from those dang activist judges. If people wanted to say adulthood begins at an earlier age that would at least be consistent. But of course, I’d be shouted down as a pervert so I’ll let someone with the proper credentials and children make that arguement.

  22. 22.

    UnkyT

    February 5, 2008 at 11:20 am

    Brown skin ages you at least 3 years.

  23. 23.

    Xanthippas

    February 5, 2008 at 11:21 am

    At 15? I would protest. I would protest.

    More to the point, he’d get an actual trial, not a “commission.” And a hearing to determine whether he was competent to be tried as an adult. And, if he were found guilty, a sentence that would consider mitigating factors like his minority. In other words, procedural protections not afforded detainees, even if they were minors at the time of capture.

  24. 24.

    Xanthippas

    February 5, 2008 at 11:24 am

    So, Mr Cole, finish the post… what SHOULD we do with a teenage soldier who fires upon U.S. soldiers in an active wartime battle situation?

    See my above comment, about the procedures afforded us via the rule of law. You know, that thing that some people on the conservative side of the aisle only have respect for when it’s manifested as a cop beating a free trade protester.

  25. 25.

    TenguPhule

    February 5, 2008 at 11:39 am

    A Canadian accused of killing a U.S. soldier in Afghanistan should not be tried as a war criminal because he was a child soldier for al Qaeda, too young to voluntarily join its forces, his military defense lawyer told a U.S. war court on Monday.

    It’s a war crime to kill an enemy soldier now?

    Oh shit, who wants to tell our guys in Iraq they’re fucked now?

    So, Mr Cole, finish the post… what SHOULD we do with a teenage soldier who fires upon U.S. soldiers in an active wartime battle situation?

    We could always do what we did before Bush’s Pussy Insanity took over, follow the damn procedures already set up.

  26. 26.

    TenguPhule

    February 5, 2008 at 11:41 am

    If he had shot at a cop in a South Central Los Angeles drug raid, he’d be tried as an adult. Few would protest.

    Just sayin’

    And if J sub D was caught sucking his dick, few would protest the kid blowing D away as a pedophile.

    Just saying….

  27. 27.

    TenguPhule

    February 5, 2008 at 11:43 am

    I mean what kind of a sick government conscripts children into the service allowing them to fight and die for their country while denying them the benefits of the choices of what substances to drink or people to have sex with.

    Any African nation currently at war.

    Though they do allow the kids to drink and rape them at will.

  28. 28.

    TenguPhule

    February 5, 2008 at 11:44 am

    Why can’t we just treat someone like that as a POW?

    Because logical thinking has been replaced by dick slapping contests among Bush loyalists.

  29. 29.

    James F. Elliott

    February 5, 2008 at 11:46 am

    The accused was 15 at the time he allegedly threw a grenade that killed a US soldier. This makes him a child soldier. Children soldiers are protected from prosecution by international treaties to which the U.S. is a signatory. So, what does the DoJ say?

    “Any immunities under international law have been abrogated by U.S. prosecution of him,” Andy Oldham, a Justice Department prosecutor, told the judge.

    To translate: “Treaties apply when we say they apply, bitches.”

  30. 30.

    Zifnab

    February 5, 2008 at 11:47 am

    What do we do with all the kids in Sudan, conscripted into their little civil war? Round up both sides and lock them away forever?

    Perhaps Lt. Kueblar could argue the child was acting in self-defense what with American Soldiers arguably being in Afghanistan illegally (if you remember, we never actually declared war, we just declared our desire to invade and kill people until we felt better as a nation).

    Perhaps Lt. Kueblar could argue that Omar wasn’t aiming for the US Soldier he killed, and that the soldier’s death was a result of acceptable levels of collateral damage associated with any military action. Works every time we drop bombs on some goat herder’s wedding party or some rag-head’s business/possible-terrorist-hideout.

    I’m a bit confused, because I could have sworn we were at war. When Pat Tillman got shot in the back of the head, no one got prosecuted. Maybe this goes back to the US Government policy of determining sectarian violence. If Omar’s victim took the bullet in the front of the head, I can see how this was an instance of sectarian violence instead of a routine act of violence. In that case, I guess Omar really is a terrorist and should be water boarded until dead.

  31. 31.

    Paul L.

    February 5, 2008 at 12:04 pm

    I am guessing you guys also support the Free the ‘MTA-9’ movement

    A dozen protestors marched Wednesday outside the Baltimore City Juvenile Justice Center, demanding prosecutors drop all charges against the so-called “MTA 9,” the black teenagers accused of brutally beating a white woman on a Baltimore City bus in December.

    Afterall, it is a civil rights issue.
    Al Sharpton Emerges from Burrow, Declares One More Year of White Guilt

    I’m afraid that we have yet to realize Dr. King’s dream of an America where gangs of Black teenagers can brutally assault White kids woman without any legal repercussions.

  32. 32.

    TenguPhule

    February 5, 2008 at 12:07 pm

    Shorter Paul L: I’m a fucking jackalope, short and stout. Here is my asshole, here is my snout. Can you figure out which end is which? Because both of them can only bitch!

  33. 33.

    Svensker

    February 5, 2008 at 12:09 pm

    Here’s another of the worst of the worst.

    I would really like Dubya to be waterboarded. By someone who doesn’t like him.

  34. 34.

    Cassidy

    February 5, 2008 at 12:37 pm

    Why can’t we just treat someone like that as a POW?

    Because they are not EPW’s (POW’s).

    I’m afraid that we have yet to realize Dr. King’s dream of an America where gangs of Black teenagers can brutally assault White kids woman without any legal repercussions.

    Priceless!

    I’m a bit confused, because I could have sworn we were at war.

    Technically, it’s not a war. For those of us who ahve been there, it is, but that is another topic. War can only be declared by Congress, yet the Commander in Chief has the ability to utilize the armed forces…but I’m sure you know this.

    Unfortunately, this admin. has jumped distinctions to many times to be credible, but across the board, terrorist organizations are considered criminals and usually treated as such. IMO, I agree with that sentiment. By detaining and conducting military tribunals, we’re only legitimizing their actions as acts of soldiers, instead of condemning them as criminals.

  35. 35.

    Cassidy

    February 5, 2008 at 12:39 pm

    EPW replaced POW in Pentagon terminology after the Vietnam War to distinguish between American prisoners of war still listed as missing in action in Southeast Asia and enemy forces captured in more recent conflicts, especially the Persian Gulf War.

  36. 36.

    Yukoner

    February 5, 2008 at 12:50 pm

    For those interested, here is a link to the story as it is being reported in Canada.

    http://www.cbc.ca/cp/national/080204/n0204150A.html

    Initially, the US said Khadr was seen throwing the grenade that killed a US medic.
    Then came the admission that no one had seen him throw the grenade but he must have because he was the only guy left alive in the compound at the time.
    Now out slips the info that there actually was another guy there as well.
    And finally, yesterday we learn, apparantly because the court mistakenly put in a document containing a US soldier’s eyewitness account, that Khadr, already wounded with shrapnel in the chest and facing away from the fight, was shot twice in the back by a US soldier before being captured.

  37. 37.

    Damien

    February 5, 2008 at 12:54 pm

    “…but across the board, terrorist organizations are considered criminals and usually treated as such. IMO, I agree with that sentiment. By detaining and conducting military tribunals, we’re only legitimizing their actions as acts of soldiers, instead of condemning them as criminals.”

    I agree completely with the sentiment but isn’t it ironic that we have a “war on terror” and are currently employing most of our armed forces combating these terrorists? We’re waging war against a type of organization that by definition we can’t wage war with.

    I’m sorry, but when tanks roll into the picture whoever we’re fighting, if they can fight back, is an opposing military force in my eyes.

  38. 38.

    Yukoner

    February 5, 2008 at 12:56 pm

    As a follow-up, the entire Khadr clan seem to be a fanatical and nasty bunch, tied in closely with al Qaida and Osama.

    But in this story as in so many others the US government has shown the world that you simply cannot believe a word they say.

  39. 39.

    Jake

    February 5, 2008 at 1:07 pm

    And finally, yesterday we learn, apparantly because the court mistakenly put in a document containing a US soldier’s eyewitness account, that Khadr, already wounded with shrapnel in the chest and facing away from the fight, was shot twice in the back by a US soldier before being captured.

    That whistling noise you hear is the sound of US credibility plummeting further down the jackalope hole. I hope the Chinese don’t get angry when it comes smashing through on their end.

    I don’t care if you spend your days cowering under the bed because you think the tarrists are at the door: A US citizen who doesn’t at the very least find this shit embarrassing needs to check his pulse.

    No wait, I’m sure Flush Limpbag will tell us that soldier was a “phony soldier,” and so can be ignored. Phew!

  40. 40.

    Jake

    February 5, 2008 at 1:10 pm

    As a follow-up, the entire Khadr Bush clan seem to be a fanatical and nasty bunch, tied in closely with al Qaida and Osama.

    Snarked.

  41. 41.

    James F. Elliott

    February 5, 2008 at 1:19 pm

    Perhaps Lt. Kueblar could argue the child was acting in self-defense what with American Soldiers arguably being in Afghanistan illegally…

    A friend of mine just made a related point: By the Administration’s logic, were Canada to invade upstate New York, they would be within their rights to detain, prosecute, and execute a teenage hunter who attempted to defend himself from fierce Quebecoise death commandos.

  42. 42.

    DougJ

    February 5, 2008 at 1:21 pm

    What about all the fifteen year-old kids who aren’t in Gitmo? How come never hear about them?

  43. 43.

    Dug Jay

    February 5, 2008 at 1:23 pm

    Execute the little mother fucker and all those bleeding hearts that feel so fucking sorry for him.

    Just sayin,

  44. 44.

    Cyrus

    February 5, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    Unfortunately, this admin. has jumped distinctions to many times to be credible, but across the board, terrorist organizations are considered criminals and usually treated as such. IMO, I agree with that sentiment. By detaining and conducting military tribunals, we’re only legitimizing their actions as acts of soldiers, instead of condemning them as criminals.

    Wonder of wonders, I agree with you. So let’s turn him over to the government of Afghanistan (this probably wouldn’t even make a difference in any practical way) and let him have a trial.

    Dug Jay Says:
    Execute the little mother fucker and all those bleeding hearts that feel so fucking sorry for him.

    Just sayin,

    Why do you hate the Constitution?

    Actually, maybe I’m overstating it a bit, but the question is at least half serious. If you aren’t a spoof, then why do you think that the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh and Eighth Amendments to the Constitution are bad ideas? If you think they only apply to U.S. citizens, can you point to any case law or precedent, any at all, backing that up?

  45. 45.

    Wilfred

    February 5, 2008 at 2:02 pm

    Technically, it’s not a war.

    Correct, and from the pov of Iraqi nationalists it’s an occupation. Which is also correct. So what it is the legal status of Iraqi nationalists who fight against the occupation of their country? A great deal of whom are Sunni and make up most of the 29,000 being held detention.

    By detaining and conducting military tribunals, we’re only legitimizing their actions as acts of soldiers, instead of condemning them as criminals.

    Who are you referring to here? What are the deciding factors that separate nationalist based resistance to American occupation and terrorism. Or are they completely conflated by now?

  46. 46.

    IanY77

    February 5, 2008 at 2:03 pm

    I’m sorry, but while I disagree with the Bush Administration’s Gitmo policy, that whole family, not just the little rotten crotch fruit, should be expelled from Canada. I’m a proud Canadian (and you can tell I’m Canadian by the fact that this post was led off with an apology ;)> ), but sometimes we are too goddamned nice. That family has stated that they hate Canada, hate who we are and what we stand for. They won’t let the kids join the school system because us degenerate Canadians will “corrupt him” with sex drugs and rock and roll (no seriously, that’s what they said, just not how they said it). They have vowed to fight us in whatever way we can. Meanwhile, they take benefits and use the free health care system.

    Omar Khadr killed a soldier by pretending to be some helpless little boy. He has not expressed any remorse for his actions. My opposition to Gitmo stems from the fact that the detainees are treated as POW without a trial. Put the little f**ker on trial, convict his ass, and make sure he never sees the light of day again. He, and his whole family, are honest-to-God bad guys.

  47. 47.

    Jake

    February 5, 2008 at 2:26 pm

    They won’t let the kids join the school system because us degenerate Canadians will “corrupt him” with sex drugs and rock and roll (no seriously, that’s what they said, just not how they said it). They have vowed to fight us in whatever way we can. Meanwhile, they take benefits and use the free health care system.

    Trade you a bus load of Fundies who home school their kids to keep them away from the corrupting influences, honestly believe terrorist attacks and hurricanes are God’s Vengance against the homoabortionists and accept welfare.

    Put the little f**ker on trial, convict his ass, and make sure he never sees the light of day again.

    US criminal prosecution, a primer:

    1. The defendant is arrested and charged.
    2. The defendant is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a shadow of reasonable doubt.
    3. If convicted by a jury (the “If” it is important) he is sentenced possibly using federal guidelines but it depends on the judge.
    4. If his sentence is life without parole he might “never see the light again.”

    Now, a lot of things can happen between 1 and 2 and 3 and 4. If you want to be 100% certain 1 leads to 4 you want something like the Gitmo kinda sorta combatant enemy tarrist make shit up as we go along BOOYA USA! system. If you don’t like the Gitmo system, you have to take your chances with 1 – 4.

  48. 48.

    Paul L.

    February 5, 2008 at 2:32 pm

    If you think they only apply to U.S. citizens, can you point to any case law or precedent, any at all, backing that up?

    Progressive hero Franklin D. Roosevelt
    Ex parte Quirin

    Ex parte Quirin, 317 U.S. 1 (1942), is a Supreme Court of the United States case that upheld the jurisdiction of a United States military tribunal over the trial of several Operation Pastorius German saboteurs in the United States. Quirin has been cited as a precedent for the execution of any unlawful combatant against the United States.

    Peace out.
    Free the ‘MTA-9’

  49. 49.

    Chuck Butcher

    February 5, 2008 at 2:36 pm

    When does the war in Afghanistan end? If you’re a POW that question has some meaning. What do you do with POWs? There is a functioning “friendly” government in Afghanistan with a “functioning” court system. Since Al-Qaeda was not an underground entity during the overthrown government that would make them official in a certain sense.

    I’d have something intelligent to say about this if I could even pretend to understand the mess BushCo has made. Lawyers and courts seem about as confused about it. Well, a little less than a year to go.

  50. 50.

    Darkness

    February 5, 2008 at 2:38 pm

    Technically, it’s not a war.

    Correct, and from the pov of Iraqi nationalists it’s an occupation.

    So… every time we kill a bunch of civilians, accidentally or otherwise, do we get tried for that later on as a war crimes? Or just for murder? There is no war and people died unnecessarily. All deaths are up for grabs here, it sounds like, given this precedent. If I were a prosecutor, I’d start with civilian deaths and work my way up to soldiers killing other soldiers when those worse ones were all cleared up.

    I mean really, that word “war crimes” isn’t that like the commander who led his troops against a different racial village and slaughtered everyone (more recently than the Hebrews in the bible, when it was god’s will it should happen) a la Milosevic? Heat of battle, pushed into a corner during a firefight where everyone is dying around the perp is not conducive to proving pre-meditation.

    I just want to make sure I have this straight. It’s a crime to kill a soldier from a foreign country who’s aiming a gun at you. That will be news for those gun collecting rednecks who have that as a fantasy. No, no, no, that’s not allowed. You have to put your guns down and come out nicely when the invasion comes. Yeah. Right.

  51. 51.

    4tehlulz

    February 5, 2008 at 2:47 pm

    Naturally, Paul L. “missed” the section where the Geneva Conventions superceded Quinn.

    Dumbass. Some people do check your citations, you know.

  52. 52.

    IanY77

    February 5, 2008 at 2:48 pm

    Jake:

    Lol, it’s a painful choice, but I’ll take fundies over terrists any day of the week. Way less chance of blowing sh*t up (except for the occasional abortion clinic, and honestly, when’s the last time that happened?).

    I hear you on the process thing, but since there were a buttload of witnesses, most if not all American soldiers, I don’t know why the gov’t is slow playing this thing. It’s one of the most frustrating things about. If the gov’t is so sure that he’s guilty, then what’s the harm is putting him on trial. Anyhow, sorry if my comment made it seem like I was advocating Bush-style justice. My anger at the Khadr family can sometimes override my good sense.

  53. 53.

    Zifnab

    February 5, 2008 at 2:53 pm

    Peace out.
    Free the ‘MTA-9’

    Seriously, where do you even find these stories? At least the Duke Lacrosse Rape scandal was all over the news. Is there a secret Paul L sponsored underground news agency that actually gives a shit every time two black people mention Al Sharpton’s name in public?

  54. 54.

    Xanthippas

    February 5, 2008 at 2:54 pm

    Paul L, if you were more schooled in the nuances of national security and international law, you would realize that we’re talking about two different things. Here’s what the Supreme Court had to say about the “unlawful combatants” in Quirin:

    The Supreme Court has described an unlawful combatant as “[t]he spy who secretly and without uniform passes the military lines of a belligerent in time of war, seeking to gather military information and communicate it to the enemy, or an enemy combatant who without uniform comes secretly through the lines for the purpose of waging war by destruction of life or property.”

    In other words, they were talking about spies who infiltrate our country to commit acts of sabotage. Or in other words, not children captured on distant battlefields. Also, as someone who doesn’t fully read the things you cite to, you are apparently unaware that since Quirin the US has ratified the Geneva Conventions. And not only that, but the Supreme Court has already held that those protections apply to “enemy combatants” detained pursuant to the war on terror, in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld.

    I’m not commenting on your ridiculous statement to educate you, as you-who think the “MTA-9” have something to do with this-are beyond hope. But you do provide a good “learning opportunity” for the rest of us here.

  55. 55.

    Wilfred

    February 5, 2008 at 3:01 pm

    What about this?:

    BAGHDAD — The American military said Tuesday that American troops killed at least two men and a woman, and wounded a child during a raid late Monday in Tikrit in northern Iraq.

    Military officials in Baghdad said in a statement that killings happened when American soldiers were fired upon as they attacked what they believed was a “terrorist cell.”

    “While entering a building, coalition soldiers were attacked by small arms fire,” the statement said. “The soldiers returned fire. Upon initial inspection, coalition forces discovered two men dead, a woman dead, and an injured child.”

    What is wrong with this picture?

  56. 56.

    Paul L.

    February 5, 2008 at 3:06 pm

    4tehlulz Says:

    Naturally, Paul L. “missed” the section where the Geneva Conventions superceded Quinn.

    Dumbass. Some people do check your citations, you know.

    Wow, another progressive using the holy text of Geneva Conventions and not understanding the limits set in it.
    Congress to Supremes: Drop Dead!
    This comment by Dale Franks says it all about the Geneva Conventions and Terrorists.

    ” As for the Geneva Conventions, it seems to me like Hamdan consituted a direct disagreement with your point of view. ”

    And Congress just overturned that decision, and told the Court to but[t] out. One of the reasons why…well, You quoted this bit, but apparently, didn’t catch it:

    They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.

    If the party does NOT accept and apply the conventions, the other parties are not bound by them. Convention protections are reciprocal.

    So much for that argument.”

  57. 57.

    Dr Richard Blackmoor

    February 5, 2008 at 3:07 pm

    Authority can shoot you accidentally but you can’t shoot authority.
    In the USA there have been many instances where a bunch of armed cops bust into the wrong house in a drug raid and are shot at and shoot back. If the police are killed the innocent person is a murderer, if the police kill and innocent person it is an accident.
    If anyone invades the USA or tries to mess with my Freedom i will fight. Most people feel that way.

  58. 58.

    Paul L.

    February 5, 2008 at 3:17 pm

    as you-who think the “MTA-9” have something to do with this-are beyond hope

    I figured that if you believe that the oppressed kid should not be tried for killing a soldier because he is fifteen, you would apply the same standard to a bunch of oppressed black teenagers accused of brutally beating a white woman who allegedly “spit” on them.

  59. 59.

    4tehlulz

    February 5, 2008 at 3:43 pm

    If the party does NOT accept and apply the conventions, the other parties are not bound by them. Convention protections are reciprocal.

    Which is precisely what the terrorist wants. You sink to his level, he wins.

    What’s it like being a tool of al Qaeda?

  60. 60.

    Cassidy

    February 5, 2008 at 3:46 pm

    Who are you referring to here? What are the deciding factors that separate nationalist based resistance to American occupation and terrorism.

    Doesn’t matter. Regardless of the “movement”, any insurgency, or rebellion, etc., is an illegal organization. Most are, in some way, a terrorist organization. Even if they are the “good guys”, they still fit that definition. The various resistance groups in WWII used terror tactics.

    What they are not is legitimate military organizations that should be tried and treated as EPW’s.

  61. 61.

    Cassidy

    February 5, 2008 at 3:47 pm

    What is wrong with this picture?

    That we’re forced into situations where to defend ourselves, we might have to hurt civilians.

  62. 62.

    LiberalTarian

    February 5, 2008 at 3:56 pm

    Um, actually, the right has always been brutal about punishment. It is the left that insists on tempering punishment with mercy. The right does punish children; the left seeks to educate and un-delinquent-ize children.

    In a system where good government were being practiced, the right could scream until it was hoarse and they would still have to bend and let the left take care of the children. The problem is that good government is not being practiced, thus we have people children in Guantanamo.

  63. 63.

    Wilfred

    February 5, 2008 at 4:00 pm

    Even if they are the “good guys”, they still fit that definition.

    I don’t agree, although I understand the expediency of the position. In any case, it’s self-defeating since the relatives of the victims are obliged to seek revenge – intention doesn’t matter here. Personally, I was raised in the tradition that Banastre Tarleton was a bad guy and that Andersonville was a black mark on American honor.

    For the rest, I don’t that much respect for authority.

    The various resistance groups in WWII used terror tactics

    So did the Stern Gang, which is why American propaganda is just that and is laughed at by the Arabs.

    For once we agree – one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.

  64. 64.

    James F. Elliott

    February 5, 2008 at 4:30 pm

    Paul L.,

    In 2002 — the same year Khadr was apprehended — the U.S. signed and ratified the optional protocol on the involvement of children in armed conflict to the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child. It is also a signatory (and ratified) the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights in 1976. The latter holds that as a matter of international — and, due to ratification, U.S. — law, the government must abide by the former (also now U.S. law).

    Regardless of his status as an “unlawful combatant,” given his age at detention and the Bush Administration’s own adoption of international standards for treatment of underage combatants as law, by what precedent is the Bush Administration justified in abrogating the law?

    Just as Quinn is later overturned by the adoption of the Geneva Conventions (a precedent you by implication cite by invoking MCA), the Military Commissions Act (your “drop dead” argument mentioned in the previous clause) applies only to the habeas corpus appeals that were the basis for the Hamdan decision. Neither have anything to do with Khadr’s status as a child participant in armed conflict.

  65. 65.

    Xanthippas

    February 5, 2008 at 5:39 pm

    I figured that if you believe that the oppressed kid should not be tried for killing a soldier because he is fifteen, you would apply the same standard to a bunch of oppressed black teenagers accused of brutally beating a white woman who allegedly “spit” on them.

    They are related, but not in the way you think. All some of us flaming liberals want is for a young man who was a minor when he committed the alleged offense to get the same procedures that some kids who allegedly beat up a woman will get without having to be held on an island for a few years first. We happen to think that kids are entitled to some measure of fair treatment even if their a darker color or from another country.

  66. 66.

    Wilfred

    February 5, 2008 at 5:50 pm

    Paul L. bangs his head to his own internal drummer:

    Reuters
    Sat, 11 Aug 2007 07:21 EDT

    A young Marine involved in the April 2006 killing of a 52-year-old Iraqi man was released following a clemency decision, the Marines said on Friday.

    Robert Pennington was one of seven Marines and a Navy medic who set out to kidnap and kill a suspected insurgent but instead seized Hashim Ibrahim Awad, a disabled police officer known to support the American occupation, according to defendants’ testimony.

    The death near Hamdania, a rural town in the vast western Iraqi province of Al Anbar, was one of a series in which U.S. forces abused or killed Iraqi civilians under questionable circumstances, damaging the image of U.S. troops abroad.

    Pennington, 21 at the time of Awad’s death, received an eight-year prison sentence in February after pleading guilty to conspiracy and kidnapping. In exchange, prosecutors dropped murder, larceny and housebreaking charges.

    In making the clemency decision, Lt. Gen. James Mattis balanced a number of factors including the ages of those involved, their military experience and rank, and their level of involvement, the Marines said in a statement.

    Please, Paul, tell me the difference. And do so for the nearly 30 cases of clemency given for routine murders of civilians that I’d be more than happy to start rolling out.

  67. 67.

    J sub D

    February 5, 2008 at 5:56 pm

    TenguPhule Says:
    And if J sub D was caught sucking his dick, few would protest the kid blowing D away as a pedophile.

    Just saying….

    Such wit. You must be a big hit at parties for bores.

  68. 68.

    Xanthippas

    February 5, 2008 at 7:17 pm

    Incidentally,

    Wow, another progressive using the holy text of Geneva Conventions and not understanding the limits set in it.
    Congress to Supremes: Drop Dead!

    Paul L, that blog will rot your mind. The Supreme Court, not Congress, will decide to what extent Congress may limit habeas jurisdiction. And I’m willing to bet they will be as kind to this Act as they were to the President in Hamdan.

  69. 69.

    TenguPhule

    February 5, 2008 at 10:57 pm

    Such wit. You must be a big hit at parties for bores.

    I wouldn’t know, I’ve never been to one of yours.

  70. 70.

    TenguPhule

    February 5, 2008 at 10:58 pm

    Doesn’t matter. Regardless of the “movement”, any insurgency, or rebellion, etc., is an illegal organization.

    Says the illegal invaders and occupiers.

  71. 71.

    TenguPhule

    February 5, 2008 at 11:04 pm

    I figured that if you believe that the oppressed kid should not be tried for killing a soldier because he is fifteen, you would apply the same standard to a bunch of oppressed black teenagers accused of brutally beating a white woman who allegedly “spit” on them.

    Shorter Paul L: If you believe an apple is an apple, that banana over there must surely be a nut.

  72. 72.

    dutchmarbel

    February 6, 2008 at 4:12 am

    More to the point, he’d get an actual trial, not a “commission.” And a hearing to determine whether he was competent to be tried as an adult. And, if he were found guilty, a sentence that would consider mitigating factors like his minority. In other words, procedural protections not afforded detainees, even if they were minors at the time of capture.

    In the USA minority is not so mitigating:

    This report is the first ever national analysis of life without parole sentences for children. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have discovered that there are currently at least 2,225 people incarcerated in the United States who have been sentenced to spend the rest of their lives in prison for crimes they committed as children. In the United States, departments of corrections do not maintain publicly accessible and accurate statistics about child offenders incarcerated in adult prisons, and there is no national depository of these data. Therefore, we were able to collect data on individuals sentenced to life without parole for crimes they committed as children only by requesting that it be specially produced for us by each state’s corrections department.

    The public may believe that children who receive life without parole sentences are “super-predators” with long records of vicious crimes. In fact, an estimated 59 percent received the sentence for their first-ever criminal conviction. Sixteen percent were between thirteen and fifteen years old at the time they committed their crimes. While the vast majority were convicted of murder, an estimated 26 percent were convicted of felony murder in which the teenager participated in a robbery or burglary during which a co-participant committed murder, without the knowledge or intent of the teenager. Racial disparities are marked. Nationwide, the estimated rate at which black youth receive life without parole sentences (6.6 per 10,000) is ten times greater than the rate for white youth (0.6 per 10,000).

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