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Balloon Juice

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

Boeing: repeatedly making the case for high speed rail.

“Everybody’s entitled to be an idiot.”

And now I have baud making fun of me. this day can’t get worse.

“The defense has a certain level of trust in defendant that the government does not.”

When do we start airlifting the women and children out of Texas?

Republicans want to make it harder to vote and easier for them to cheat.

Not loving this new fraud based economy.

When we show up, we win.

Today in our ongoing national embarrassment…

You cannot love your country only when you win.

The real work of an opposition party is to oppose.

Imperialist aggressors must be defeated, or the whole world loses.

I did not have this on my fuck 2025 bingo card.

It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.

Jack Smith: “Why did you start campaigning in the middle of my investigation?!”

Marge, god is saying you’re stupid.

I have other things to bitch about but those will have to wait.

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

The willow is too close to the house.

Weird. Rome has an American Pope and America has a Russian President.

We cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation.

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

The gop is a fucking disgrace.

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You are here: Home / z-Retired Categories / Previous Site Maintenance / Open Thread

Open Thread

by John Cole|  February 6, 20088:22 pm| 112 Comments

This post is in: Previous Site Maintenance

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The specter of a McCain candidacy has some Red State folks posting GBCW posts.

If they can;t vote for a crazy person, this politics just ain’t worth it!

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Previous Post: « The Gathering Storm
Next Post: How Much Better Off Would We All Be »

Reader Interactions

112Comments

  1. 1.

    Tlaloc

    February 6, 2008 at 8:33 pm

    When did they change the definition of crazy? I’m pretty sure a grown man who, in public, sings “Bomb bomb Iran” as the answer to a question of foreign policy qualified under the old definition.

  2. 2.

    NickM

    February 6, 2008 at 8:37 pm

    I see amongst the recommended blogs that Repair Man Jack has asked the timeless question “Is The Online Right Becoming a Deracinated Embarrassment?”

  3. 3.

    myiq2xu

    February 6, 2008 at 8:38 pm

    When did they change the definition of crazy?

    McCain is less crazy than the rest, but that’s like saying Jeffrey Dahmer killed fewer people than John Wayne
    Gacy.

  4. 4.

    Voice of Reason

    February 6, 2008 at 8:45 pm

    Hope they all find the big shit sandwich delicious.

  5. 5.

    Conservatively Liberal

    February 6, 2008 at 8:49 pm

    Watching the meltdown on the right must be something like watching a cock fight (no, not those kinds of cocks!) or a pitbull fight to the death. While I despise people who make animals fight like that, it is much more fun to watch people who should know better engage in it.

    IMO, while there is plenty of ‘hate’ going on between the two political extremes, I feel that the extreme right is intolerant to the point that if they could put the left in internment camps, they would in a heartbeat.

    Rush views anyone on the left as an ‘enemy’ of America (and his), plain, pure and simple. If anyone is the enemy, it is people like him. They try to spread hate throughout the airwaves, but I think they are starting to sound like mindless drones who repeat their hateful words like a skipping record. People are getting tired of it, and that is good.

    We are all Americans, and we all have different ideas on what America should be seen as. When we start hating each other, we are only sowing the seeds of hatred for our own self-destruction.

    If Obama wins the primary, I fully expect the racist side of the right to come out in force. They are going to be on a rage that something like this could ever happen, and I would not be surprised if some nutcase on the right attempts to assisinate Obama. I sure hope I am wrong, but with the way some talk radio people like to crank up their audience I believe I have reason to worry.

  6. 6.

    Incertus (Brian)

    February 6, 2008 at 8:52 pm

    If Obama wins the primary, I fully expect the racist side of the right to come out in force. They are going to be on a rage that something like this could ever happen, and I would not be surprised if some nutcase on the right attempts to assisinate Obama.

    I would be surprised if the Secret Service doesn’t already have a few hundred people under surveillance for just such an eventuality. Same for Clinton. I’ve long believed that the right’s brand of crazy is infinitely scarier than the left’s brand, at least in terms of physical violence. And if there’s not at least one open attempt on either Clinton or Obama in the next 8 months, I’ll be really surprised.

  7. 7.

    tBone

    February 6, 2008 at 8:52 pm

    So they have an opening for a Tbone at Redstate? Sweet. I’ve been waiting for a chance to get my crazy on.

  8. 8.

    KG

    February 6, 2008 at 8:55 pm

    myq2xu – I had to read your comment a couple of times, “Gacy” hanging down a line. All I could think was, who the fuck did John Wayne kill?

  9. 9.

    The Grand Panjandrum

    February 6, 2008 at 9:06 pm

    If Obama wins the primary, I fully expect the racist side of the right to come out in force.

    In an odd way I see that as therapeutic for the Right. Decent conservatives will have to take the time to reflect and decide if that is really who they want to be associated with. John Cole is still a conservative, but was forced to look at the reality of what the Republicans were promoting. War crimes, a never ending mismanaged war were the tipping point, John?
    Its one thing to promote a nonsense policy or one that most people disagree with, but it is an entirely different matter to be affiliated, even remotely, with openly vicious racists or war criminals. The therapy maybe be cathartic, but it may be cleansing and healthy in the long run.

  10. 10.

    Ninerdave

    February 6, 2008 at 9:14 pm

    Shorter TBone.

    WAAAAAAA WAAAAAA WAAAAAAA

  11. 11.

    zsa

    February 6, 2008 at 9:16 pm

    I kind of have what may seem like an obvious question, but why exactly do the wingnuts hate McCain so much?

    Is it due to McCain-Feingold? Or the fact that McCain went against the Bush tax-cuts initially? Immigration? Didn’t they hate McCain well before immigration became such a third rail? Did he kill their puppy?

    My understanding is that McCain has a strong conservative voting record and he’s as militaristic as all hell. So what’s with all the McHatin’?

  12. 12.

    Digital Amish

    February 6, 2008 at 9:21 pm

    What a bunch of pussies. 1/2 of a primary season and they piss their pants and run off to hide in the root cellar. Christ, man-up. I’ve lived through 8 years of George Fucking W Bush. They couldn’t carry my jock strap.

  13. 13.

    Evilbeard

    February 6, 2008 at 9:28 pm

    TGP,

    I think John removed the wool over his eyes during the Schiavo circus.

  14. 14.

    John S.

    February 6, 2008 at 9:29 pm

    Is it due to McCain-Feingold? Or the fact that McCain went against the Bush tax-cuts initially? Immigration? Didn’t they hate McCain well before immigration became such a third rail? Did he kill their puppy?

    Yes.

    SATSQ

  15. 15.

    KG

    February 6, 2008 at 9:33 pm

    zsa – It’s all about the 2000 primary. They wanted a coronation, and McCain actually challenged Bush. And he did it while calling out the likes of Falwell and Robertson.

    McCain-Feingold is part of it, they being defenders of (their own) First Amendment Rights. But it goes much deeper than that. By challenging Bush in 2000, McCain challenged all these people who have come to see themselves as part of the party establishment.

    Plus, it doesn’t help that they’ve run out of ideas and now seem interested in being a small tent (ie – Rush this morning railing about liberal and moderate Republicans not being punished by the party for working with Democrats).

  16. 16.

    Ninerdave

    February 6, 2008 at 9:33 pm

    I just noticed that the Obama camp has started a “let’s match Hillary’s loan” funding drive.

    As of right now, it stands at $4,956,525

    and that’s just in the last 24 hours.

    What was that about Obama’s lack of momentum?

  17. 17.

    Pb

    February 6, 2008 at 9:34 pm

    I see amongst the recommended blogs that Repair Man Jack has asked the timeless question “Is The Online Right Becoming a Deracinated Embarrassment?”

    “Becoming?” “Is?”

    Here’s some more wisdom from the Repair Man:

    I’m quite aware that losing the Iraq War would be the start of a long national decline for America.

    Jeez, however did we get into that situation… fortunately for the Repair Man, McCain’s brilliant hundred year holding action will stave it off for a century.

    Of course, back in reality, it’ll have much more to do with al Sadr than with the (no doubt nefarious) Democrats.

    Munthir al-Mosawi, 27, a member of the Shiite militia founded by the militant cleric Moktada al-Sadr, died Sunday in custody after being held for three days on a Baghdad arrest warrant. A medical report concluded that Mr. Mosawi had died of a “bullet in the head,” a military official who had read the document said.

    Iraqi officials gave varying accounts of Mr. Mosawi’s death; representatives of Mr. Sadr threatened to call off a cease-fire that had lasted months and been credited with helping to reduce violence in Iraq.

  18. 18.

    Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill

    February 6, 2008 at 9:34 pm

    it is an entirely different matter to be affiliated, even remotely, with openly vicious racists or war criminals. The therapy maybe be cathartic, but it may be cleansing and healthy in the long run.

    I 100% concur.

    There’s no way on God’s Green Earth I want to see Obama, or Hillary Clinton, or ANYONE shot at, hurt, or even seriously threatened in this election, or afterwards.

    That said, I welcome the opportunity for the so-called “conservatives” to show exactly how racist and/or sexist they are, to a population that’s clearly moving beyond such concepts, and punishing people for invoking them. It’s time for the GOP to start growing up, and joining the rest of us in the 21th Century.

    But hell, I’d welcome them just moving past 1980.

  19. 19.

    LiberalTarian

    February 6, 2008 at 9:34 pm

    All I could think was, who the fuck did John Wayne kill?

    LOL.

  20. 20.

    jrg

    February 6, 2008 at 9:37 pm

    Why on earth would a right-winger stop blogging on the eave of a possible Clinton nomination? When the Republican party is preparing to get back to it’s roots?

    Just think of the years of opportunity this wanker might miss… 11-year-old blowjob jokes! Sandy Berger! Shooting pumpkins in the back yard to prove that Vince Foster was murdered!

    Happy days will be here again! It’ll be like Home Alone, except the grown ups will be in DC, instead of on vacation.

  21. 21.

    LiberalTarian

    February 6, 2008 at 9:40 pm

    Rush this morning railing about liberal and moderate Republicans not being punished by the party for working with Democrats.

    Damn. It is totally unfair that that man is (a) not in a Florida prison for 20 years and (b) that Heath Ledger died he the fat man didn’t.

    I don’t often wish harm on another human being, but geez Louis.

    That reminds me–for the last 8 years we’ve had to be “careful what we say” lest the FBI shows up at our door. While I cannot even bear to think about someone hurting a Democratic candidate, I really look forward to the day when I can criticize a President vociferously and not water it down for my own protection.

  22. 22.

    KG

    February 6, 2008 at 9:43 pm

    just saw on Kos that Hillary’s top staff are “voluntarily going without pay”.

    Last I checked, that’s usually a bad sign when it comes to campaigns, no?

  23. 23.

    Tim in SF

    February 6, 2008 at 9:46 pm

    (ie – Rush this morning railing about liberal and moderate Republicans not being punished by the party for working with Democrats).

    Did anyone listen to the three-hour hate today? I’d love to hear how badly he went off the rails. I can’t stomach the idea of listening to him myself.

  24. 24.

    TR

    February 6, 2008 at 9:50 pm

    just saw on Kos that Hillary’s top staff are “voluntarily going without pay”.

    Is that a New York tradition of some kind? First it was Rudy 9iu11ani, and now it’s Hillary.

  25. 25.

    KG

    February 6, 2008 at 9:50 pm

    Tim, I caught his first monologue and a little after. Other than that little bit of stupid, there wasn’t much from Rush. I did, though, miss his response to a life long Republican who will sit out the November election – or worse, “vote for Hillary or Obama if it looks like McCain has a chance of winning.” Yes, that is, as best I can do, a direct quote from the caller.

    I should have stuck around to listen to Rush’s response, but I’m a lawyer most days and had to get into the office.

  26. 26.

    wvng

    February 6, 2008 at 9:54 pm

    It’s looking like Hillary’s campaign is in really serious $$ troubles. I sure didn’t see that coming. And the msm is starting a feeding frenzy that won’t help her “electibility” at all.

    This whole thing could be over much sooner than anyone thought.

  27. 27.

    maxbaer (not the original)

    February 6, 2008 at 9:54 pm

    What a bunch of pussies. 1/2 of a primary season and they piss their pants and run off to hide in the root cellar. Christ, man-up. I’ve lived through 8 years of George Fucking W Bush. They couldn’t carry my jock strap.

    That’s what I’ve been thinking today. There’s still 10 months until the election. I thought these were the fearsome keyboard kommandos who were going to keep us safe from the Muslim horde. A little adversity and they take their Cheetos and run home upstairs to Mommy.

  28. 28.

    MNPundit

    February 6, 2008 at 9:55 pm

    Open Thread Note:

    Obama just raised over $5 million since the end of the Super Duper Tuesday. Can he make it to 6,000,000 and fry the biggets fish of ’em all–Ron Paul?

  29. 29.

    KG

    February 6, 2008 at 10:04 pm

    Ok, so I just went over to Rush’s website and saw the transcript of his conversation with that caller that I mentioned.

    Oh. Bloody. Fucking. Hell.

    Quote el Rushbo:

    Well, I have a theory. It’s because the conservatives are the base of this party, and they have been told to suck an egg for all these years, and they have been told, “Just get over it when we make deals with liberals on their terms. Just get over it.” We have been told all these years, “Just get over it. We’re going to grow the government along with the Democrats because we believe in active government to get our agenda done.” That’s one of the keys, by the way, in my upcoming in-depth analysis to explain what’s happening here in large measure on the Republican side. It’s a sad thing to have to realize. There are too many in our party… We know the liberals and who they are, and we know the Democrats are who they are.

    There are too many on our side, who have simply succumbed to the notion that government’s the end all. Government’s the answer. Government should do this on global warming. Government should do that on people being obese. Government should do that on the price of heating oil. Too many people on our side have bought into this

    Nary a mention of George W Bush’s transgressions in his rant. In fact, not a mention of George W Bush at all. I could never come close to that level of cognitive dissonance. NEVER.

  30. 30.

    calipygian

    February 6, 2008 at 10:06 pm

    All I could think was, who the fuck did John Wayne kill?

    Nobody. He was a typical, cowardly, wingnut draft dodger who, after having his 2-A classification upgraded to 1-A in 1944, successfully weaseled back down to 2-A.

  31. 31.

    John S.

    February 6, 2008 at 10:13 pm

    Wow, totally OT…but the headline on MSNBC is huge and scathing at the moment:

    GOP senators block bigger stimulus plan
    Dems sought $40 billion for veterans, seniors.

    Ok, I really don’t recall seeing something this egregiously anti-GOP in the MSM for quite some time. Are they reading the tea leaves here and banishing Republicans to the media darling hinterland?

  32. 32.

    calipygian

    February 6, 2008 at 10:16 pm

    GOP senators block bigger stimulus plan
    Dems sought $40 billion for veterans, seniors.

    Michelle Malkin things seniors eating cat food and legless vets begging on the street are good things. Really.

    She’s totally telling brain damaged Iraq vets to Suck. It. Up. because money for vets is pork.

  33. 33.

    Jake

    February 6, 2008 at 10:16 pm

    IMO, while there is plenty of ‘hate’ going on between the two political extremes, I feel that the extreme right is intolerant to the point that if they could put the left in internment camps, they would in a heartbeat.

    Sorry. Move far enough into the United States of fRightistan or the Socialist Republic of Leftania and you’ll find both nations share a border along the Rio FuckNut. The only difference is we’ve never had a president who was put in office and guided by the fringe loons on the left. If that ever does happen I hope like hell it occurs after I’m dead and buried.

  34. 34.

    calipygian

    February 6, 2008 at 10:20 pm

    As a Jew of Liberal Fascism, I totally expect to be packed into a box car and shipped off to a death camp if the uber-liberal John McCain is elected der Fuhrer.

    He is Mayor of the Socialist Republic of Leftania and was baptized in Rio Fucknut.

    Rush told me so.

  35. 35.

    canuckistani

    February 6, 2008 at 10:32 pm

    What a bunch of pussies. 1/2 of a primary season and they piss their pants and run off to hide in the root cellar. Christ, man-up. I’ve lived through 8 years of George Fucking W Bush. They couldn’t carry my jock strap.

    I have a donut here for anyone who can repost this on RedState where they need to see it real bad.

  36. 36.

    canuckistani

    February 6, 2008 at 10:36 pm

    All I could think was, who the fuck did John Wayne kill?

    Nobody. He was a typical, cowardly, wingnut draft dodger who, after having his 2-A classification upgraded to 1-A in 1944, successfully weaseled back down to 2-A.

    John Wayne was a fag.

  37. 37.

    calipygian

    February 6, 2008 at 10:37 pm

    I have a donut here for anyone who can repost this on RedState where they need to see it real bad.

    Who is still at Red State that Moe hasn’t banned to read it?

  38. 38.

    Ned R.

    February 6, 2008 at 10:43 pm

    Actually my favorite RedState oddball has been gamecock — and he’s on fire once again.

  39. 39.

    The Grand Panjandrum

    February 6, 2008 at 10:47 pm

    @MNPundit:

    I just got done throwing a few scheckels in the Obama treasury. He’s up to 5.63 million.

  40. 40.

    The Grand Panjandrum

    February 6, 2008 at 10:50 pm

    @Ned R:

    Thanks for the link! Here’s a wonderful bit for everyone to enjoy. Gamecock writes:

    I signed up with the GOP in 2000 after 18 years in the morally and intellectually bankrupt Party of the Left to scold liberals and their policies that have had America slouching towards Gomorrah at various speeds for more than 40 years.

    You know … some things … you just can’t make up.

  41. 41.

    Buzzybill

    February 6, 2008 at 10:51 pm

    Last night I decided I had to figure out why the “movement conservatives” hate McCain so much. What I discovered is there are people who think he is a Rockefeller Republican.

    I had heard that phrase all the time growing up, so I looked it up on Wikipedia. Son of a Bitch! It turns out there is actually a name for people who share my political beliefs! Who knew?

    Sad part is, 1) there is no way McCain qualifies for this honorable title, and 2) no one has paid attention to the idea of a liberal Republican since 1980.

    But dare to dream, there is a place for Republicans who don’t care if you a straight or gay, and who think lowering taxes to stimulate the economy is a bad idea. Problem is, that place is in the 1970’s.

  42. 42.

    Dug Jay

    February 6, 2008 at 11:12 pm

    The latest national Gallup tracking poll, out this evening, has Hillary up 13 fucking points. Who has momentum??

  43. 43.

    Ned R.

    February 6, 2008 at 11:13 pm

    Collected before yesterday, I thought.

  44. 44.

    Dug Jay

    February 6, 2008 at 11:17 pm

    Collected before yesterday, I thought.

    Collected through last night, with each of the preceeding two days also showing similar huge margins over Obama. Her strength justs gets greater the more people compare the two…an empty suit compared with a powerful well dressed woman.

  45. 45.

    Zuzu

    February 6, 2008 at 11:21 pm

    calipygian Says:

    All I could think was, who the fuck did John Wayne kill?

    Nobody. He was a typical, cowardly, wingnut draft dodger who, after having his 2-A classification upgraded to 1-A in 1944, successfully weaseled back down to 2-A.

    He almost ran me down in Newport Bay when I was a kid.

    His boat:

    http://www.huskerpedia.com/events/USC/images/wildgoose.jpg

    My boat:

    http://www.gisails.com/images/boatpics/boat_1.jpg

  46. 46.

    Jen

    February 6, 2008 at 11:28 pm

    McCain is less crazy than the rest, but that’s like saying Jeffrey Dahmer killed fewer people than John Wayne
    Gacy.

    This, this is the myiq that I love.

  47. 47.

    The Grand Panjandrum

    February 7, 2008 at 12:00 am

    …an empty suit compared with a powerful well dressed woman.

    The “empty suit” has raised almost $6 million since the polls closed in California last night. He’s taken everything the Clinton Restoration team has thrown at him. He fought the machine to a stand still. Not bad for a first term Senator I’d say. But we have a long way to go.

    The poll of polls has it at four. But National Polls don’t mean a thing, do they?

  48. 48.

    Cain

    February 7, 2008 at 12:07 am

    Hope MUP takes Cthlulu for VP.

    cain

  49. 49.

    empty

    February 7, 2008 at 12:18 am

    Dug Jay Says:

    Collected before yesterday, I thought.

    Collected through last night, with each of the preceeding two days also showing similar huge margins over Obama.

    The site explicitly says that it does not include the effect of yesterday’s (super tuesday’s) vote.

  50. 50.

    LiberalTarian

    February 7, 2008 at 12:32 am

    Well, I have a theory. It’s because the conservatives are the base of this party, and they have been told to suck an egg for all these years, and they have been told, “Just get over it when we make deals with liberals on their terms. Just get over it.” We have been told all these years, “Just get over it. We’re going to grow the government along with the Democrats because we believe in active government to get our agenda done.” That’s one of the keys, by the way, in my upcoming in-depth analysis to explain what’s happening here in large measure on the Republican side. It’s a sad thing to have to realize. There are too many in our party… We know the liberals and who they are, and we know the Democrats are who they are.

    There are too many on our side, who have simply succumbed to the notion that government’s the end all. Government’s the answer. Government should do this on global warming. Government should do that on people being obese. Government should do that on the price of heating oil. Too many people on our side have bought into this.

    LYING ASSHOLE. Couldn’t he just drop dead??? Please, is that so much to ask??

  51. 51.

    cbear

    February 7, 2008 at 12:57 am

    He almost ran me down in Newport Bay when I was a kid.

    You’re lucky he didn’t shimmy down a rat line, commando-style with a knife in his teeth, and slit your commie-pinko-liberal throat.

    Isn’t it curious how many of the greatest gooper heros are actors who actively avoided service.

  52. 52.

    TenguPhule

    February 7, 2008 at 1:05 am

    The CIA torture tape scandal gets bigger

    At this point we should simply consider every Bush appointed official guilty and sentence them to death.

    Save a lot of time and trouble.

  53. 53.

    cbear

    February 7, 2008 at 1:22 am

    At this point we should simply consider every Bush appointed official guilty and sentence them to death.

    I suggest we torture them first.

  54. 54.

    TenguPhule

    February 7, 2008 at 1:35 am

    I suggest we torture them first.

    Nah, it doesn’t do any good.

    Best to keep it simple.

    Up against the wall, two to the brainpan, a shallow unmarked grave.

    Lather, rinse and repeat as needed.

  55. 55.

    The Grand Panjandrum

    February 7, 2008 at 1:36 am

    I suggest we torture them first.

    String all the Bush SOTU’s together and put them in a loop. Interject a bit of Tim Russert to especially cruel.

  56. 56.

    Gemina13

    February 7, 2008 at 1:47 am

    I just finished reading Gamecock . . . oh, holy fuck. I thought my carpooling partner was a Dittohead lunatic. Gamecock is a sterling example of the intellectual disasters that result when you remove civics from school curricula.

    I’d like to scoff at the RedStaters and Freepi for loathing McCain, but they’ve got McCain’s character nailed even if their rationale is off. He’s no liberal, McCain’s one of the best crooks and liars either American party ever produced, and he’s a sorry, bad-tempered little prick on top of it. All that piety about God and country, and “straight talk,” and he couldn’t even give a straight answer about whether he’d vote for his own immigration reform program. The only thing McCain seems interested in is working deals for his own advantage; give him the kind of opportunities in Arizona that Ted Stevens had in Alaska . . . aside from a little cash between old friends . . . and Mack could have really cleaned up.

    So I can’t blame them for wanting John McCain’s balls on a plate. I’ll bet 90% of his staff would like to take Mack out of the Straight Talk Express one dark night, drag him into the bushes, pull what’s left of his choleric brain through his nostrils, and hurl his carcass to the coyotes. It’s just funny as hell to see that, even as I’m dreading a McCain Presidency, so are the wingnuts.

    Who says we can’t all get along?

  57. 57.

    Cain

    February 7, 2008 at 1:49 am

    haha.. Hillary and Bill in the 70s. Check it out

    Bill looks totally like some kind of chain pot smoking dude..heh. But he has kind eyes..

    cain

  58. 58.

    Anne Laurie

    February 7, 2008 at 1:57 am

    At this point we should simply consider every Bush appointed official guilty and sentence them to death.

    I’d suggest life imprisonment without possibility of parole, because these guys should suffer for at least as long as we’ve had to suffer at their hands, and in Dick Cheney’s case that’s been 30 long years and counting.

  59. 59.

    myiq2xu

    February 7, 2008 at 2:01 am

    Isn’t it curious how many of the greatest gooper heros are actors who actively avoided combat service.

    That pretty much sums up the GOP with the exception of McCain, Dole and a couple of others.

    I spent some time looking up the military records of a lot of top Democrat and GOP leaders and the Democrats have far more decorated combat veterans.

    Many of the GOP members who were in the military managed to get National Guard or non-combat assgnments, like George W. Bush, Dan Quayle and Pat Robertson. Jack Kemp was 4-F due to physical reasons while playing pro football.

    I noticed years ago that people who have actually been shot at are far less eager to send other people to fight and die than “chickenhawks.”

  60. 60.

    Zuzu

    February 7, 2008 at 2:09 am

    You’re lucky he didn’t shimmy down a rat line, commando-style with a knife in his teeth, and slit your commie-pinko-liberal throat.

    He was probably knocking down a gin and tonic in the lounge while the real captain ran me down.

    To be fair, they didn’t have any idea I existed. I guess they would have heard the crunch, though.

  61. 61.

    LiberalTarian

    February 7, 2008 at 2:12 am

    Well, on a completely different less hawkish note, I was reading yesterday that there is a theory that if men spent more time with their babies they wouldn’t be so anxious to send them off to war to get blown up. Cognitive science, interesting stuff.

    So, by implication, it suggests that the men in the Family Values crowd do not actually give their own children the time of day … something lacking in their emotion makeup perhaps?

    Then again, they don’t tend to send their own children overseas to get blown up by IEDs, do they??

    Hm. G’night.

  62. 62.

    TheFountainHead

    February 7, 2008 at 2:24 am

    All told, Obama raised about 6.5 million today. Not too bad.

    Two things that made me smile today:

    1.) Hillay’s staff are working pro-bono

    2.) Mark Penn attempting to label Obama as the establishment candidate.

  63. 63.

    cbear

    February 7, 2008 at 2:29 am

    I spent some time looking up the military records of a lot of top Democrat and GOP leaders and the Democrats have far more decorated combat veterans.

    Too right. Here’s a partial list:

  64. 64.

    cbear

    February 7, 2008 at 2:32 am

    Me no linky very good.

    Let’s try again:

    http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

  65. 65.

    cbear

    February 7, 2008 at 2:34 am

    @#$^*(*II#@##

    Alright, somebody tell me how the forking link thingie works, please.

  66. 66.

    Zuzu

    February 7, 2008 at 3:17 am

    Easy.

    If you don’t have an array of tags showing above the comment box, click on the little >> box. Then you’ll see them.

    Now click on “Link” and enter the URL.

    Then click on “/Link” and between > and enter the name you want to give the link.

    Check it out in “preview.” Then submit.

  67. 67.

    cbear

    February 7, 2008 at 3:43 am

    chicken hawks

  68. 68.

    cbear

    February 7, 2008 at 3:45 am

    Holy shit! It worked.

    I CAN READ…I CAN GO TO SCHOOL….THIS IS GREAT!
    (anybody remember Steve Martin in “The Jerk”)

    Tx Z.

  69. 69.

    myiq2xu

    February 7, 2008 at 4:21 am

    (anybody remember Steve Martin in “The Jerk”)

    My favorite line was when he writes his mom a letter and says “I should be able to send you more money next time because my girlfriend promised me a blow-job”

  70. 70.

    dslak

    February 7, 2008 at 4:23 am

    I noticed years ago that people who have actually been shot at are far less eager to send other people to fight and die than “chickenhawks.”

    Plato realized this in the fourth century BC, and guns hadn’t even been invented yet!

  71. 71.

    myiq2xu

    February 7, 2008 at 4:30 am

    http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

    Nixon was a LT Commander in the Navy during WWII and served in the South Pacific.

    Poppy Bush was a pilot in WWII

    Pat Buchanan was 4-F

    Rush did not serve

    JFK was a Navy war hero, his brother Joe was a pilot that was killed in Europre during WWII

    LBJ did not serve.

    Ike served (duh)

    Truman served in WWI

  72. 72.

    myiq2xu

    February 7, 2008 at 4:39 am

    Oh yeah, Mitt Romney avoided the war in Vietnam by serving as a Mormon missionary – to France!

    George McGovern was a bomber pilot in WWII

    Elvis served in the Army

  73. 73.

    myiq2xu

    February 7, 2008 at 4:41 am

    Plato realized this in the fourth century BC, and guns hadn’t even been invented yet!

    GMTA ;)

  74. 74.

    dslak

    February 7, 2008 at 4:44 am

    Britney Spears served as an incubator for the demon spawn of K-Fed.

  75. 75.

    Sirkowski

    February 7, 2008 at 5:33 am

    Rush Limbaugh couldn’t serve because of a boil on his ass. Oxycontin fixed that.

  76. 76.

    Jake

    February 7, 2008 at 8:09 am

    I’d suggest life imprisonment without possibility of parole,

    In the same prison, eating in the same mess, using the same showers. Day after day, year after year.

    We could test out the theory that hell is other people.

  77. 77.

    Dennis - SGMM

    February 7, 2008 at 8:26 am

    In the same prison, eating in the same mess, using the same showers. Day after day, year after year.

    Allowed only to read the works of Jonah Goldberg or listen to the speeches of George W. Bush for entertainment.

  78. 78.

    Punchy

    February 7, 2008 at 8:52 am

    I have a donut here for anyone who can repost this on RedState where they need to see it real bad.

    Yeah, but its a Canadian donut, which means it’s only about 0.95 of an American don…

    /rechecks Canadian dollar’s worth

    ….uh…nevermind.

  79. 79.

    The Other Steve

    February 7, 2008 at 9:09 am

    Nixon was a LT Commander in the Navy during WWII and served in the South Pacific.

    Where he won the war playing Poker.

    LBJ did not serve.

    Johnson was in the Navy in WWII, mostly dealing with naval supplies. He had a similar role as Truman, reviewing naval shipyards and making recommendations on how to improve efficiency. But he did make at least one trip into the south pacific combat zone to review what they needed.

  80. 80.

    Dug Jay

    February 7, 2008 at 9:19 am

    Gallup Poll Daily tracking conducted Feb. 3-5 now includes three consecutive days in which Clinton has done well, giving her a 13-percentage point lead over Barack Obama, 52% to 39%.

    The data onclude Super Tuesday voting info.

  81. 81.

    The Other Steve

    February 7, 2008 at 9:22 am

    The data onclude Super Tuesday voting info.

    Doesn’t really matter. Even hillary would kick John McCain’s ass.

    The guy is nutso, and the more people see of him the less they are going to like him.

  82. 82.

    The Grand Panjandrum

    February 7, 2008 at 9:33 am

    I noticed years ago that people who have actually been shot at are far less eager to send other people to fight and die than “chickenhawks.”

    I am sure the video is archived somewhere, but it would be useful to find the floor speech of then Senator Dale Bumpers (D-ARK) gave before the first Gulf War. He was, by his own admission, a very strong supporter of the Viet Nam War. One day his own son (a newly commissioned Army officer on his way to Viet Nam) came to him asked Bumpers to give him just ONE good reason why we were fighting in Viet Nam.

    When it was his own son, he didn’t have even ONE good reason. He also changed his position of the Viet Nam War.

    Bumpers voted against the first Gulf War resolution as well.

  83. 83.

    Dug Jay

    February 7, 2008 at 9:37 am

    I understand that Dale Bumpers posts here under the pseudonym of “ThymeZone.”

  84. 84.

    Fausto Carmona

    February 7, 2008 at 9:37 am

    just saw on Kos that Hillary’s top staff are “voluntarily going without pay”.

    Last I checked, that’s usually a bad sign when it comes to campaigns, no?

    Someone find Dandy Don. “Turn out the lights, the party’s over o/`” There’s no way I see that she can fight both the February states and Ohio-Texas at the level Obama can.

  85. 85.

    Cassidy

    February 7, 2008 at 9:39 am

    There’s no way I see that she can fight both the February states and Ohio-Texas at the level Obama can.

    Counting out a Clinton is always a mistake. They may not be as likable as MUP, but they are far shrewder and better trained in political jiu-jitsu.

  86. 86.

    Krista

    February 7, 2008 at 9:40 am

    I have a donut here for anyone who can repost this on RedState where they need to see it real bad.

    Is it a maple-glazed? I’m trying to lose my Christmas weight, but would happily go over to RedState, get an account and post whatever you want me to post, if it’s a maple-glazed donut.

  87. 87.

    Fausto Carmona

    February 7, 2008 at 9:41 am

    Is that sweat on your brow, Mrs. Clinton?

    Hillary campaign manager Patti Solis Doyle has sent an open letter to the Obama camp, stepping up their debate challenge. The letter argues that voters should get to see more than a single one-on-one debate between the two, and that the two of them should have one debate a week for the next five weeks starting this weekend.

    One particular proposed venue would definitely be a sticking point with a lot of Democratic activists: “Senator Clinton believes voters should have more than one opportunity to see the candidates discuss the issues and has accepted five debates between now and March 4th from CNN, MSNBC, WJLA, ABC and Fox News.”

  88. 88.

    Scrutinizer

    February 7, 2008 at 9:42 am

    The Gallup poll writeup states:

    Democratic preferences in Tuesday night’s interviews — mostly conducted before Super Tuesday election results were known — were similar to Sunday and Monday night’s interviews. Gallup Poll Daily tracking will not begin to reflect the impact of Tuesday’s voting on national Democratic preferences until tomorrow.

    Shorter DugJay:

    Iz kant redd 2 gud.

  89. 89.

    libarbarian

    February 7, 2008 at 9:42 am

    Oh the cruelty of a world that won’t let love conservatism flourish!!!!!!!

  90. 90.

    dslak

    February 7, 2008 at 9:43 am

    The good news for Hillary: She received $4 million in donations in 24 hours.

    The bad news: Obama made more, and he has fewer bills.

    If Hillary had been pulling in money like this earlier, it would have made more difference. It’s probably too little, too late at this point. It can only help her however if the media are writing her obituary, as she’s bound to have a few surprises up her sleeve.

    Even though I prefer Obama, I’d still like to see the Clintons stick it to the haters, many of whom are simply fair-weather Obama supporters, anyway.

  91. 91.

    Krista

    February 7, 2008 at 9:45 am

    Counting out a Clinton is always a mistake.

    That’s the most sensible thing I think I’ve seen you post on here.

    I think that Obama’s camp and Obama’s supporters want to be very, very, very careful about counting Clinton out. Some people, when they become the underdog, fade away. Others get the “Oh yeah? I’ll show YOU, peckerhead!” mindset and come roaring back to life. I’m thinking Clinton is the latter. Right now, nobody in this race can afford to get cocky.

  92. 92.

    Fausto Carmona

    February 7, 2008 at 9:46 am

    Counting out a Clinton is always a mistake. They may not be as likable as MUP, but they are far shrewder and better trained in political jiu-jitsu.

    Which doesn’t amount to a hill of beans when Clinton has to resort to demanding more free air-time- er- ‘debates’ while Mark Penn is busting out the Kraft dinners. Their political jiu-jitsu hasn’t yet saved them from their lack of fundraising, Obama’s momentum, or – most importantly – from the voters.

  93. 93.

    Dennis - SGMM

    February 7, 2008 at 9:46 am

    Just read that the amended economic stimulus package failed to pass by just one vote. Ninety-nine Senators voted with eight Republicans and two independents joining the Democrats to achieve 59 of the 60 votes needed to move the bill forward.

    The missing man? Why it was that courageous, straight-talking maverick John McCain, who was in D.C. at the time of the vote.

    Brave Sir John he ran away.
    Bravely ran away away.
    When danger reared it’s ugly head,
    He bravely turned his tail and fled.
    Yes, brave Sir John turned about
    And gallantly he chickened out.

    Bravely taking to his feet,
    He beat a very brave retreat.
    Bravest of the brave, Sir John!

  94. 94.

    Wilfred

    February 7, 2008 at 9:47 am

    but they are far shrewder and better trained in political jiu-jitsu

    Maybe, but they also fuck up plenty, most recently in Bill’s assholish antics in South Carolina which arguably accelerated Obama’s rise. What you describe is part of their supposed mystique – if they try that on Obama she will never win as his supporters will not forget and forgive in November.

    She’s running for President for 16 fucking years and can’t put Obama away – starting to look like a loser to me.

  95. 95.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    February 7, 2008 at 9:48 am

    cbear Says:

    At this point we should simply consider every Bush appointed official guilty and sentence them to death.

    I suggest we torture them first.

    I suggest that after we convict them, we offer for them to be waterboarded for 24 hours, or shot in the head.

    a.) They obviously wouldn’t take death, because waterboarding isn’t torture, just uncomfortable.
    b.) After about 1 hour of straight waterboarding, assuming they don’t die of some sort of respiratory shock, they’ll probably ask to be shot in the head. We’ll grant them their wish. After the next 23 hours of waterboarding.

    They deserve no less. But this is only for the principal architects of the torture program. Rummy, Chimpy, Yoo, etc.

  96. 96.

    dslak

    February 7, 2008 at 10:09 am

    Brave Sir John he ran away.

    McCain is, I believe, attending the CPAC conference. For those conservatives to whom he isn’t already the antichrist, it’s probably more important that he kiss those rings and say his mea culpas.

    On the electoral front, attacking him for missing the vote won’t be enough to improve Mitt or Huckabee’s chances, and Obama, who has been missing in action a few times himself, couldn’t really use this against McCain. Maybe Hillary could, in the general.

  97. 97.

    Wilfred

    February 7, 2008 at 10:15 am

    Yeah, never count anybody out. But a lot of this talk reminds me of baseball announcers who say things like “Don’t let that .215 batting average fool you, he’s a tough hitter”. Well somebody’s been fucking getting the guy out. It’s the same thing here – Obama just needs to keep pitching like he’s been, and Clinton can grab some bench.

  98. 98.

    Svensker

    February 7, 2008 at 10:21 am

    Is it due to McCain-Feingold? Or the fact that McCain went against the Bush tax-cuts initially? Immigration? Didn’t they hate McCain well before immigration became such a third rail? Did he kill their puppy?

    And the torture. Don’t forget the torture. The fact that he was tortured and doesn’t think it’s a good thing really pisses them off.

  99. 99.

    Bob In Pacifica

    February 7, 2008 at 10:32 am

    When is one hundred years in Iraq not crazy?

    Anyway, the attacks on McCain are coming from the top, so the batshit stuff is just cover for the real issue: the rich must acquire greater wealth at a faster rate. McCain’s apparently not the equal to Bush for class war thievery.

  100. 100.

    Tsulagi

    February 7, 2008 at 10:54 am

    Okay, now that cracked me up. He signed off his GBCW with…

    I will now go quietly.

    Love,
    Tbone

    Always good to see the Jack Bauers in the Party of Bush not afraid to express their man love for their fellow Jacks when in crisis. I bet it was group tears all around at RedState. I hope they’re all okay.

  101. 101.

    Ned Raggett

    February 7, 2008 at 10:59 am

    And the torture. Don’t forget the torture. The fact that he was tortured and doesn’t think it’s a good thing really pisses them off.

    Kinda funny you mention that. Read this article, vented a touch on my blog, got a strange comment back that said in part:

    Of course, why do we waterboard our troops? To teach them how to resist torture by barbaric nations that don’t recognize the Geneva Conventions. It’s nice to know that we’ll sink to that level.

    From a Huckabee supporter, amusingly. Perhaps the meaning of the last sentence was lost in translation.

  102. 102.

    Jen

    February 7, 2008 at 10:59 am

    I would never count on HRC either. My Newsweek (it’s free with the public radio donation, ok) that I just got around to reading has this op-ed, I think it’s oversimplified and silly, but it had this interesting paragraph:

    Only 3 percent of Obama’s hundreds of thousands of small donors have “maxed out,” which means that the campaign can go back to them again and again for more. By contrast, roughly 70 percent of Hillary’s donors have contributed the $2,300 maximum allowed by law. (On Wednesday, Obama raised $3 million, while Hillary lent her campign $5 million from her personal account.) She is already facing a money crunch, though she’s hardly broke. Besides, money is not likely to make a huge difference at this point. So-called “free media” (news coverage) is more important than “paid media” (TV ads).

    So, there’s two different spins you can run with there according to your preferences. But I found that 70% / 3% statistic, if it’s accurate, to be pretty dang interesting. I still have several thousand to be able to contribute, and will put him on direct debit if necessary. :)

  103. 103.

    Cassidy

    February 7, 2008 at 10:59 am

    starting to look like a loser to me.

    Plenty of time left. Keeping with the analogy, we’re not even into the 7th inning yet. The worst thing anyone can do is underestimate the most savvy politician of this generation.

  104. 104.

    canuckistani

    February 7, 2008 at 11:07 am

    Krista, for someone who truly appreciates fine Canadian cuisine, there’s maple glazed, sour cream glazed, old-fashioned, french crullers – anything for someone who can put the boot to Red State without having to go through the waiting period for comments.

  105. 105.

    Zifnab

    February 7, 2008 at 11:11 am

    When is one hundred years in Iraq not crazy?

    Anyway, the attacks on McCain are coming from the top, so the batshit stuff is just cover for the real issue: the rich must acquire greater wealth at a faster rate. McCain’s apparently not the equal to Bush for class war thievery.

    Everyone still interested in engaging in class war thievery is going to want to back the winning horse, not the money-whoring-est horse. John McCain pissed off a whole lot of people with the McCain-Feingold reform (perhaps the greatest argument in favor of the bill). His refusal to go along lockstep with the party – at the time nothing more than kabuki theater – didn’t sit well with the party lemmings, either.

    This isn’t about money or policy or electability, anymore. This is about party purity. Republicans don’t like John McCain because independents do. That, alone, makes him “impure” and open to their derision.

    Check some of the wingnut sites. One of their foremost complaints about McCain is how he’s winning the primary with “independent and liberal” voters. Couple that with the “McCain is more liberal than Hillary Clinton” meme, and you have built yourself a candidate that the wingers simply can’t bring themselves to vote for. No one in Limbaugh-land cares if McCain will lower your taxes or “stay the course” or give Jesus head, because if he wins the White House it won’t be on the back of their base. The Republican Party is purging the Reagen Democrats in their search for the next Reagen, and it’s fucking hilarious.

  106. 106.

    Jen

    February 7, 2008 at 11:14 am

    In a sign of Clinton’s increasing concern about Obama’s growing strength, her campaign manager, Patti Solis, sent a letter Thursday to the Obama campaign seeking five debates between the two candidates before March 4.

    She’s going to try to rob him. That’s the only explanation I can think of for wanting to debate every five days.

  107. 107.

    Tsulagi

    February 7, 2008 at 11:15 am

    The worst thing anyone can do is underestimate the most savvy politician of this generation.

    Yeah, little early to write her obit. How many weeks ago was CW saying McCain was dead because he was broke and unable to stand up against the Romney machine? Mitty was the transcending conservative.

  108. 108.

    Wilfred

    February 7, 2008 at 11:15 am

    Obama just needs to go about his business, campaign hard and get himself known in the remaining states. I don’t doubt the Clintons will try a knockdown pitch again, and soon, but it will only backfire on them in the long run. If I were Obama, I’d start talking more about electability – people seem quite happy to write McCain off, which I think is a big mistake, especially when the Republicans are praying for Clinton.

  109. 109.

    Ed Drone

    February 7, 2008 at 11:17 am

    “Oh yeah, Mitt Romney avoided the war in Vietnam by serving as a Mormon missionary – to France!”

    I refer to that as “Mitt’s Missionary Position.”

    Ed

  110. 110.

    Jen

    February 7, 2008 at 11:18 am

    This was the other interesting thing in Newsweek. Yes, I’ve heard of Obama Republicans before, but this puts it just +.001 above “swirling internet anecdote” status for me.

  111. 111.

    Jake

    February 7, 2008 at 11:19 am

    Allowed only to read the works of Jonah Goldberg or listen to the speeches of George W. Bush for entertainment.

    Let’s not go all cruel and unusual now.

  112. 112.

    Reverend Spooner

    February 7, 2008 at 12:16 pm

    I am sure the video is archived somewhere, but it would be useful to find the floor speech of then Senator Dale Bumpers (D-ARK) gave before the first Gulf War. He was, by his own admission, a very strong supporter of the Viet Nam War. One day his own son (a newly commissioned Army officer on his way to Viet Nam) came to him asked Bumpers to give him just ONE good reason why we were fighting in Viet Nam.

    When it was his own son, he didn’t have even ONE good reason. He also changed his position of the Viet Nam War.

    Bumpers voted against the first Gulf War resolution as well.

    Is this it? Finding it was a bitch.

    Mr. BUMPERS. Mr. President, I spoke on Thursday evening regarding the two resolutions which we just voted on in a very highly charged and dramatic time in the Senate an hour ago. I would like to make a few additional comments about that vote.

    First of all, I do not question the sincerity of a single Senator as to why he or she voted the way they did. I have never seen a time where I thought partisanship played a smaller role, even though the votes might indicate otherwise.

    I think the American people mostly–though they are divided deeply over this whole issue–instinctively want to support the President, but they are not prepared to go to war.

    My mail and my phone calls have been evenly divided for some time, even though for the first 4 1/2 months of our presence in Saudi Arabia, since the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq, my mail had been running about 10 to 1 against war.

    Mr. President, there is a side of me–in the interest of candor–that would like to launch at least a preemptive strike immediately to take out all the chemical and biological weapons, storage and manufacturing facilities, and to eliminate all of Saddam Hussein’s nuclear facilities, even though I think he is probably a long time away from developing a deliverable nuclear weapon. I am talking about years.

    Mr. ROBB assumed the Chair.

    Mr. BUMPERS. But, Mr. President, my vote today was calculated on the proposition that force should be the last alternative and that constitutionally I had a duty to either agree to give the President authority to commence hostilities any time on or after next Tuesday or to join the `Wait-Just-a-Minute Club’ and say let us wait a few more days, a few more weeks without giving up the option for the use of force sometime before summer sets in, and the belief that diplomacy and the sanctions ought to be allowed to at least be given every chance.

    I am mildly optimistic about de Cuellar’s visit to Baghdad, and I think Saddam would much rather cut a deal with the Secretary General of the United Nations or the President of France than he would with us. I think that if Saddam believes that he is going to have to leave Kuwait and all the 100 Members of this body believe that, he may be prepared to do it by negotiating something with somebody else. That is fine. President Bush, to his credit, has said that is fine with him. But whatever they agree to cannot be a condition for his withdrawal.

    The other thing, Mr. President, is what do we lose by waiting 30, 60, or 90 days? The answer is we not only do not lose anything, we gain. The reason we gain is because everyday that passes because of the embargo, Saddam’s military apparatus is denigrated, one more tank without a tread, one more personnel carrier without an engine, one more antidefense site that has been degraded and inoperable and highly sophisticated aircraft unable to fly for lack of spare parts. Whereas we still have 50,000 to 100,000 men on the way to Saudi Arabia. So we become stronger in the next 60 to 90 days and he becomes weaker. We lose nothing if we wait.

    But to repeat the ultimate argument, it is this: When we talk about 1 to 20,000 men and women dying, I am talking about Americans.

    You do not have to search your conscience very long among the 100 Senators to answer the question would it be better to take that chance, whatever it is, no matter how slight, to allow diplomacy or the sanctions or both to work and avoid that kind of bloodshed, or should we just preempt a strike right now, commence hostilities, because we know that Saddam is a tyrant. That is not a sufficient justification. There are tyrants all over the world. We have been in bed with a lot of them.

    Everybody knows we would have a very difficult time maintaining 430,000 men and women in the desert for another 8 months. I do not know whether we could do it or not. General Schwarzkopf said we could but that it would be infinitely preferable to spend another summer in the sun than it would be to start the killing. That is our field commander in Saudi Arabia.

    Mr. President, there is another side of me that worries about what our vital interests are. When I spoke Thursday evening in this Chamber, I pointed out I thought we understood what our vital interests were in Vietnam and we found out, after 55,000 men had been killed and 700,000 wounded, that we had no vital interest in Vietnam.

    How many wars have been fought throughout history, and how many lives have been lost as a result of a premature action, maybe because of somebody’s macho feelings out on his cuff, maybe because somebody felt he had to show how tough he was and could not wait to prove it? There have been a lot of miscalculations in some of those wars, too.

    Mr. President, when you start this war, everybody knows that you are going to have long-lasting terrorism all over the world. Everybody knows that it is going to cost us roughly $2 billion a day for every day combat goes on to add to our already $400 billion deficit. Everybody knows that we will incur Arab enmity as far into the future as anybody can foresee. And those are only a part of the down side.

    Yet all 100 Senators, regardless of how they voted, agree that we will win the war. We are all agreed that Saddam must leave Kuwait. We are all agreed, above all else, Mr. President, that once hostilities begin, whether it is Tuesday or a month from Tuesday, or 2 months from Tuesday, every Member of Congress and certainly 100 Members of the Senate will support our troops with every conceivable weapon we can provide them to make sure they prevail and have the best opportunity in the world of prevailing. Everybody knows that we will circle the wagons once the shooting starts. That is not the issue.

    Mr. President, there is another point that I must make, though it is not totally on target, as to why I voted the way I did. That is, I have not ever had it satisfactorily explained to me–and I tell you, a lot of my mail reflects that in my State a lot of people have never had it satisfactorily explained

    to them–why is it that it is the United States that must put up the money, the manpower and shed the blood, virtually all of it, to secure Middle Eastern oil for other countries, the contribution of which is minimal and almost nonexistent.

    That is not to say we are not a world leader and must act like one. That is not to say that Saddam must be dealt with. But this coalition of Syria and Egypt, for example, is not only fragile; it may not exist once the shooting starts. There is no commitment from Syria or Egypt that they will set one foot inside Iraq. Maybe Kuwait but not Iraq. And if Israel is brought into the war and feels forced to retaliate, the point has been made over and over and over again on this floor, you can almost certainly forget the coalition. It will cease to exist.

    Mubarak, Assad, no Arab leader can survive fighting on the side of Israel, or be perceived by their people as fighting alongside of Israel.

    It is a very tenuous situation. The President has been applauded time and time again during the last 3 days for putting the coalition together, and I join it. I am pleased because he went to the international community, the United Nations. I am doublely pleased that he came to the Congress and said, `I need your backing, I need your support, and you have the constitutional duty to decide what my powers are.’ He just received authority from both Houses to commence hostilities any time on Tuesday or thereafter. While my side did not prevail, the President deserves credit for having done so.

    Mr. President, what are our vital interests? Is it the restoration of an emir? Kuwait is hardly a democracy. I have heard one Senator, I believe, on the floor say they treat their camels better than they do their women.

    But I harken back to the time when I was vociferously opposed to reflagging Kuwaiti tankers during the Iraq-Iran War. I was opposed to it for what I thought were cogent, compelling reasons; namely, that while we put flags on their tankers to help them get their oil past Iran and Iranian ships in the Persian Gulf, their warships in the Persian Gulf, and while we spent $20 million of American taxpayers’ money to reflag Kuwaiti tankers, they would not let an American airplane land on one of their airstrips or an American ship berth in their ports. And it is hard for me to forget that.

    And it is hard for me to forget that.

    Well, Mr. President, I hope that everything turns out well. If we go to war next week or the week after, we will never know whether the casualties we suffer could have been avoided. We will never know whether the sanctions and diplomacy might have worked if we had given it a little more time. And as I point out earlier, bear in mind that the time we are spending is in our favor. Time is on our side.

    If de Cuellar strikes a deal with Saddam on Monday, Tuesday, or whenever, and Saddam agrees to start his withdrawal, with no conditions, and somebody comes up to me and says, `Senator, looks like your vote was wrong,’ I will say I am pleased. I will be happy to live with that.

    But there is another side to it. If it does not, and it becomes a very dicey situation, we will never know whether war was necessary or not.

    Mr. President, I must tell you that there is not a single boy or girl in Saudi Arabia that is the son or daughter of a single Member of the United States Senate, I understand there are two youngsters who are sons of House Members.

    But I would be less than candid if I did ask a simple rhetorical question. Would the vote have been the same if we had a draft, and rich people and middle-class people and lower middle-class people and poor people were all sharing or were prepared to share in the bloodshed?

    Everyone ought to ask themselves the question, and perhaps that is a debate that we might want to start in the Senate sometime in the not-too-distant future.

    This is the first time we have fought a war, Mr. President, quite like this, where everybody in the Army is a volunteer. They tell me morale is high there. I hope it is, and I pray it is. And I pray for the lives of every single person there, and the well-being of their families that are still here. I pray that some sort of a truce or peace will be accomplished there in the very near future, and before these hostilities that will end God knows when.

    I yield the floor.

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