From the comments of the idiotic Che non-story:
Fact: Che Guevara was a ruthless murderer who imprisoned, tortured, and sent his political opponents to the firing squad without due process. This included individuals whose “crime” was nothing more than voicing dissenting opinions.
Regardless of whether you agree with Che’s philosophies on social justice, you must condemn his brutal methods.
Unless, of course, there is a ticking time bomb scenario, at which point all bets are off and Che becomes a patriot. Right, Mr. Scalia?
You bastards have legitimized torture as a necessary tool, and America is now a regime that tortures. You got your way. Now please STFU about history’s villians (and yes, I count Che as one), because you are only different in scale. It is that whole moral high ground thing, you see. You aren’t on it.
LiberalTarian
Yeah, you tell ’em John. >:)
Phil
Wow John, you really couldn’t get any fucking dumber, could you? Still waiting for you to hit bottom I guess. Won’t hold my breath.
If a nuclear bomb is about to go off in NYC and one guy is in a room who knows where it is, you can be damn sure I’m going to do whatever is necessary to find out where. If you want to pretend you’re morally superior because you apparently wouldn’t, feel free to do so on top of the 10 million charred corpses of your fellow citizens.
Meanwhile, Che Guevara murdered political opponents merely because they were political opponents.
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/che.html
Here’s a quote from your new hero John:
“Hatred is an element of struggle; relentless hatred of the enemy that impels us over and beyond the natural limitations of man and transforms us into effective, violent, selective, and cold killing machines. Our soldiers must be thus; a people without hatred cannot vanquish a brutal enemy.”
Still digging John….still digging. You must be very proud of yourself.
demkat620
Kinda reminds you of that whole
Rope. Liberal. Tree.
Some assembly required.
thingy that was so popular with the Kommandos a while back, doesn’t it?
Bey
Oh for chrissake. Reading, Phil. It’s fundamental. Try again.
And spare us the ol’ nuke canard.
Phil
Looking back at the old posts, another one of John’s brilliant defenses of the Che flag is: “Bush talks funny”. John, Bush is not running in 2008. McCain, an independent Republican hated by many of its party elites, is running. McCain is the kind of guy a reasonable person likes, even if they don’t plan to vote for them. The kind of guy a John Cole would have probably voted for 8 or even 4 years ago.
Now you’re nothing more than a sad hack for the Democratic Party. I’m pretty much convinced you must be getting kick backs at this point. Only way to explain the hackdom you’re displaying.
Che worship is no big deal? Wow….really….just wow.
jj
Thank you.
Che wasn’t the first or the last person to believe in violent revolution and if you think it was his political beliefs that made him the villain, people need to go back and look at how loyalists were treated in the days of America’s own revolution. And while your at it, maybe take a side trip to see how African slaves, indigenous people and even women were viewed by some of our more ‘ahem’ august founding fathers. Start with Jefferson’s “Notes on the State of Virgina”.
Listening to RWingers crow about Che Guevara is a masterclass in hypocrisy, what with all the slave owning, warmongering, genocidal assholes we’ve lionized throughout our own history.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
But it’s fun to watch him try, innit?
Waterboarding = Murder!
Terrorists = Political Opponents!
Che = Scalia!
I’m happier every day that he traded in a few billion brain cells for his Dem registration.
Nikki
Umm…Phil? How is that quote any different from what we’ve been hearing from your side ‘lo these past 7 years?
Dennis - SGMM
Like the way you joined up and went to Iraq so that we wouldn’t have to fight them over here?
LiberalTarian
Actually, TPM gives this theory a shot. Note how the people they tortured a year after 9/11 weren’t tortured to prevent a nuke, but to force confessions.
Welcome to the USSA. Phil will be guiding your tour.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
And there’s the bottom of the barrel. Who is the US to criticize terrorists — we once had slaves!!
Jeebus.
LiberalTarian
Yay. Trolls!
Man, where the fuck have you been? We’ve been missing you. It’s one thing to talk about wingers, but another thing to watch them in the natural habitat.
Joy.
Phil
“And there’s the bottom of the barrel. Who is the US to criticize terrorists—we once had slaves!!
Jeebus.”
I’m telling you, John Cole is on the take. Only reasonable explanation…
LiberalTarian
John Cole is a Republican senator?
jj
Reading. Maybe it’s not so fundamental ?
The problem smartguy, is they hypocrisy of a person who can on the one hand, look at the “good” done by men who tacitly supported one of the longest, most brutal human rights crimes in recent human history (not to mention the publicly funded monuments and social artifacts lionizing their greatness) and see the trade-off as acceptable, only to then turn around and get all bent out of shape by a poster of a 2nd tier communist revolutionary in an unoccupied political campaign office.
It’s a matter of principle, of which you people seemingly have none.
John Cole
Yep. Too bad a vote for McCain is a vote for bottom-dwelling sewer trout like you.
Once the GOP is completely destroyed, out of power, and demoralized, and once the pro-torture, anti-liberty, spend and spend class that you fellate is gone and adults are back in charge of the ashes of the GOP and the Malking wingnuts you embrace are back to attending John Birch Society rallies instead of GOP meetings, I can go back to voting for folks like McCain.
Until then, Obama/Clinton 2008! And seriously, go piss up a rope, you loser.
Phil
Btw, I still find it amusing that liberals compare Obama to JFK in light of his supporters idolizing Che. JFK would be a Republican today, a younger version of Joe Lieberman who IS supporting McCain.
Tax cuts? Check.
Bay of Pigs? Check.
Protected allies in the defense of liberty? Check.
Sent the US military to kill people like Che? Double check.
The cognitive dissonance running through the average liberal’s mind these days must be off the chart.
Or…
They’re on the take like John Cole.
It’s the only reasonable explanation.
Dennis - SGMM
Seemingly?
Alan
I know this is off topic, but have you seen the vitriol against Jack Kemp at Hot Air and Townhall? I mentioned earlier today the vitriol against Phil Gramm and Warren Rudman by Rush Limbaugh. Today’s GOP isn’t anything like it was almost two decades ago. It has truly lost its way.
I can’t wait to cast my vote for Obama in the fall (hopefully).
4tehlulz
HAHA OH WOW
Phil
“Yep. Too bad a vote for McCain is a vote for bottom-dwelling sewer trout like you.
Once the GOP is completely destroyed, out of power, and demoralized, and once the pro-torture, anti-liberty, spend and spend class that you fellate is gone and adults are back in charge of the ashes of the GOP and the Malking wingnuts you embrace are back to attending John Birch Society rallies instead of GOP meetings, I can go back to voting for folks like McCain.
Until then, Obama/Clinton 2008! And seriously, go piss up a rope, you loser.”
McCain:
A) Opposes torture in all cases, which is what John just said he supports.
B) Opposes all pork barrel spending and has promised to veto any of it, which is what John just said he supports.
C) Loves liberty so much he was tortured for 5 years in defense of it, which is what John just said he supports.
So what is the real reason you’re not supporting him John?
Oooh, oooh I know! (raises hand) Because you’re on the take. There really is no other explanation for it.
Oh and he loves Che now too!
John, you’re really pathetic at this point.
John D.
Hey, Phil? Quick question for ya.
How are you going to get that information? Specifically, how are you going to get accurate information?
The problem with torture, beyond the moral aspects, is that it does not produce good information any quicker. It produces ASTOUNDING amounts of bullshit, as the captives learn rapidly what sorts of information their questioners seek.
See, torture usually results in a confession to all sorts of things. It’s why the US Army FM 34-52 prohibits it, specifically.
From FM 34-52:
That’s word-for-word out of the manual I was trained on as a 97E, Interrogator. We had some nice demonstrations at our AIT in Arizona as to the efficacy of torture as well.
You cannot trust information gained through coercive means like that without compelling subsidiary intelligence. And if you have that intelligence, you don’t need to fucking torture people. People say what you want to hear when tortured — and that wastes those precious minutes in the scenario you outline above.
We’ve got a nuke going off in an hour in NYC? We’re fucked. Period. End of discussion. You cannot gain worthwhile intel in that time.
Punchy
I’ve begun to think that Scalia isn’t fit to be a SC judge. He’s about as biased, predjudiced, and unprofessional as they get.
Mike S
Another Republican tough guy.
Trust me, this little boy would be running the other direction from a VW backfire. Put him in a room with a constrained terrist and he’d shit his pants.
jj
It always comes down to tax cuts with you loons doesn’t it?
Failed interventionism. It’s not just for Republicans.
Do you like speaking in general, mindless slogans, or would you care to substantiate how JFK differed from any other President elected after NATO was established?
See #2 above
Dennis - SGMM
Um, Phil, Kennedy decided in the last few hours before the Bay of Pigs fiasco to not support the rebels with US ships and aircraft.
Protected which allies in the defense of liberty? Would that be South Vietnam? If so, your timeline is off by one administration.
Liberals compare Obama to JFK because JFK was fond of soaring rhetoric and he called upon the people of the nation to do great things. You need to come up with your own great president rather than trying to co-opt the memory of ours.
Phil
“Once the GOP is completely destroyed, out of power, and demoralized, and once the pro-torture, anti-liberty, spend and spend class that you fellate is gone and adults are back in charge of the ashes of the GOP and the Malking wingnuts you embrace are back to attending John Birch Society rallies instead of GOP meetings, I can go back to voting for folks like McCain.”
Actually let me put aside the snide remarks for a sake and ask you in an extremely serious manner:
Based on what you JUST SAID ABOVE, and that McCain opposes torture in all cases, opposes pork barrel spending of all kinds, has requested a constitutional line item veto, and defended the country’s liberty to that extent that he was tortured for 5 years by a Communist government ideologically aligned to Che’s, would you care to explain why you hate McCain so much? You claim to be conservative and yet I can’t seem to figure out how you’re conservative in any way whatsoever. Are you a liberal now?
Again, those were serious questions and I’d be curious to hear serious answers from you. I’m only joking about “the take” thing, because I’m honestly shaking my head here wondering how a supposed self-described disaffected conservative thinks John McCain is so awful when he supports everything you just said you wanted in a candidate.
Obama, on the other hand, is literally the most liberal member of the entire Senate, according to the non-partisan, National Journal. And yet a conservative is excited to vote for him? Again, pardon me for wondering out loud if you as a self-described conservative are on the take. Serious explanation here. I’m just curious.
Mike S
Read the whole comment, moron. I guess Bush left many children behind.
4tehlulz
You gave up the right to be taken seriously awhile ago, chief.
Dennis - SGMM
Is our trolls learning?
How come they’ve given up referring to The Bush Doctrine and they never mention the rich, steaming legacy of their current president?
DUDACKATTACK!!!
Maybe someone ought to ask about Saint McCain’s enthusiasm for the National Endowment For Democracy. -A.K.A. Coup D’etat’s ‘r’ Us.
Xenos
Check your source. On that subject, at least, the National Journal is and has been full of crap.
GSD
I am pretty tired of the world according to 24 scenario.
Can we get more creative and instead of a Middle Eastern terrorist propose the possibility by citing a Martian with an earth evaporating death ray.
-GSD
4tehlulz
So, you’re saying our foreign policy should be based on Bugs Bunny cartoons?
Mike S
How conveniant. Why just four years ago John Kerry got that honor.
I guess the Socialist, Bernie Sandars, has been slacking.
GSD
Che’ sounds remarkably similar in rhetoric and temperment to Ann Coulter.
By the way, Bin Laden opposes taxes. Please apply the Goldberg Rule to that.
-GSD
Tsulagi
Said by an obvious Queen of Irony. No doubt the typical Republican manly man who spends his nights if not days masturbating to the thought of the ticking nuke bomb. Seeing himself kneecapping the nearest available brown person while snarling at New Yorkers who do not deserve his Jack Bauer magnificence. Hannity swoons in his presence.
These guys crack me up. Always dreaming of the day they can get their dick up in a non-wetsuit environment. But try as they might, they always need their fellow BBM Jack Bauer ticking time bomb buddies to get a rise. I suggest you try Patterico. Seems like he always gets wet thinking about all the ticking time bombs in his head.
And John D., don’t even bother. Though there’s a long history torture doesn’t work and is counterproductive, that will never touch, much less enter the brainpans of the Party of Bush patriot warriors. Just as many of them are certain Adam and Eve rode to church on dinosaurs 6,000 years ago, they know the truth about
torturealternative interrogation. They see the big picture.ThymeZone
Good god, we need better spoof around here. This is boilerplate nonsense.
Yeah, that’s right, American policy should be based on the most dumbass movie script we can think of. Yeah, that’s the ticket.
Brilliant. Really, if you are going to spoof, at least take the time to write something original.
Phil
“How conveniant. Why just four years ago John Kerry got that honor.
I guess the Socialist, Bernie Sandars, has been slacking.”
http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/
“Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was the most liberal senator in 2007, according to National Journal’s 27th annual vote ratings. The insurgent presidential candidate shifted further to the left last year in the run-up to the primaries, after ranking as the 16th- and 10th-most-liberal during his first two years in the Senate.”
So John, who’s a “conservative” (wink wink), is going to excitedly support the most liberal member of the Senate and not vote for a conservative who supports everything he just said he wants in a conservative candidate.
So the question is, does John just call himself a “conservative” to try to pretend he’s above it all? Isn’t that kind of pathetic and self-promoting if you’re actually just a converted liberal hack, like David Brock?
Tim F.
My favorite part:
Condemn, hell. Brutal techniques for the sake of idealistic goals makes Che an ally to neocons more than any of the pussy engagement left.
srv
Absolutely. Those Bolivian and other south american juntas were really nice guys in comparison to Che.
You know, you can get Pinochet and Batista
J.D. Rhoades
Especially since 24 proves that torturing people doesn’t stop the nuclear attack. A nuke actually went off on Torturin’ Jack’s watch, remember?
Tell you what, though, I’ll make you a deal. In the one situation where “a nuclear bomb is about to go off in NYC and one guy is in a room who knows where it is,” then, and only then, do you get to cut his finger off. Everything else is right out.
Deal?
clone12
I have a question for you rightwingers.
In between Hiroshima and Nagasaki, would it have been okay for the Japanese army to litearlly torture every single American POW it has just on the off chance that one of them might know which city will get hit next?
Tim F.
Clarence Thomas resents that remark.
myiq2xu
Okay, put me in that situation and I’ll torture somebody to save millions.
Then I’ll turn myself in and accept my punishment for my crime.
It’s like the canard about stealing to feed your children. In reality it’s always stealing to feed your addiction.
Gus
Wow, John, you should refrain from writing posts about Special Ed. It sure gets stupid around here when you do.
ThymeZone
OMFG.
Bush does something decent.
Is the world hurtling into the sun?
Is this the end?
SteveinSC
The nuke riddle is easily solved. The chickenhawks who love our country so much, would simply break the law and accept the punishment, thereby preseving the honor of the country and saving it at the same time. Unfortunately, these are the same chickenhawks who fight the culture wars and not the real ones. And by the way, support McCain? Because he supports things of which you approve? Which one the Maverick a al 2000 or the 2006 suckup to Falwell? We report, you choose.
Teak111
But wait, John. Now Bush or Che, Scalia can simply farm out illegal activity like torture and wiretapping to private enterprise then have the GOP in congress grant immunity from legal action, while a spade and neutered democratic congress smile and wave. This is all working out great. I’m starting to think Bush is an absolute fucking evil genius.
Xanthippas
Phil, I’d like you to go out to a store right now and ask the first person you meet “Do you think Che worship is a big deal?” If you get anything more than blank stare, please report back posthaste.
Gus
I guess Kennedy really would have been a Republican because according to Jonah Goldberg Nixon would be considered a liberal Democrat today.
myiq2xu
I’ll agree to make it the law that torture is okay in that scenario.
Otherwise it is a war crime/crime against humanity.
lee
Wait…you guys are taking Phil seriously?
I thought he was a spoof.
People still take that ticking time bomb crap seriously?
Obviously the stupid ones do, but they would have to be in the last percentile of the population.
Xanthippas
If that were true, I’m sure John would still take that over:
Waterboarding = fun aquatic exercise in endurance!
Children detainees = wastes of carbon that must be killed!
Che = most vicious dictator in all history of humankind (after Saddam Hussein and Hugo Chavez!)
The fact that commentators like you come here and proudly wear your depravity on your sleeve, is indicative of how riled up John gets you. And to that I say…keep up the good work Mr. Cole! It’s mighty entertaining to the rest of us.
HyperIon
John Cole IS on the take…from PajamasMedia!
SteveinSC
My, my what a surprise, and I had heard that the mouth foamers on the right don’t think McCain is a real conservative, maybe won’t even vote for him. So now they are pushing him as the soul and core of the republican party?
myiq2xu
BTW – If it turns out there was no bomb, it’s a non-pardonable offense with a mandatory minimum sentence of of life without parole for everyone involved.
ThymeZone
I don’t know about you, but I’m getting the city evacuated while you fuck with this lunatick. I’m saving lives, you go ahead and act out your Jack Bauer fantasy.
Delia
This guy Phil spews so much crap I don’t even know where to begin.
More liberal than Ted Kennedy, the usual bete noire of the wingers? Russ Feingold? Chris Dodd? Barbara Boxer? Bernie Sanders, who’s an Independent well to the left of the Dems?
Please stop making shit up.
Oh, and here’s another one:
Yeah, he’s independent, all right. So independent he cravenly sucks up to the guy who trashed his reputation.
And how about that 10,000 year war in Iraq thing? That qualify as “reasonable” in your book or 100% certifiably bonkers?
And one more thing: Che and the torture crap. Now granted I never bought into the romantic hero in the poster bit, but I don’t buy into it when old fat white guys like Cheney are pushing it, either, or stupid TV shows. And whatever bullshit Che was using to justify whatever he did (or Robespierre for his revolution for that matter), I have yet to hear a coherent explanation for grabbing a completely innocent Canadian citizen while he was changing planes, and sending him off to be tortured in Syria for a year, apparently because the retardates in charge of Our Great Patriotic Regime thought like he looked like someone who might be guilty of something.
Xenos
Well, would you think that issuing dishonest, internally inconsistent opinions, that consistently wind up benefiting the immediate relatives of the man who appointed the judge in question would be grounds for impeachment?
We desperately need to get a clear majority in the House and the Senate, because the time is coming to collect some scalps. Between Scalia’s corruption and Alito’s perjury, I know where the impeachment process needs to start…
Liberal Masochist
We should not forget that the Contras were the moral equivalent of our founding fathers! And the founding fathers owned slaves and attempted to cultivate wine grapes (Jefferson)
(Pause)
(Leafing through Liberal Fascism to find what is indeed central to my point)
What site does Jonah wrote for again…?
UnkyT
You’d think that phil’s Che link would actually contain examples of Che murdering people, but the crimes are all dated 30 years after Che’s death. Maybe the point is that because of Che being a part of the Cuban revolution he helped bring about the regime that did commit the murders stated in the linked page. If this is the case than that would validate John’s point.
“Hatred is an element of struggle; relentless hatred of the
enemyterrorists that impels us over and beyond the natural limitations of man and transforms us into effective, violent, selective, and cold killing machines. Our soldiers must be thus; a people without hatred cannot vanquisha brutal enemythe brutal terrorists.”I believe that quote is now ready for Malkin’s home page.
srv
Who said:
1) Saddam H.
2) Che G.
3) Code Pink
4) W. Churchill
4tehlulz
Phil’s mommy must have put him to bed; there really is no other explanation for his disappearance.
SenderC
If Che had been one of the storied “freedom fighters” of a couple of decades ago we would have sold weapons to Iran to fund him, no matter how brutal his methods were. Heck, he could have even raped nuns with impunity. When Republicans support you, you can do any sick thing you want without any consequences.
SteveinSC
I’ll take English warmongers for $10, Alex.
ThymeZone
Churchill
SteveinSC
Well, McCain’s making a speech right now, maybe he had to stop blogging.
4tehlulz
Holy shit! Ward Churchill said that!?!
ThymeZone
Obama speaks.
Dennis - SGMM
You mean this Scalia:
Water over the deck?
Xenos
Translation: “Get swabbing, you lousy impressed Yank! The Empire knows how to handle traitors… God Save the King!”
Delia
I say Churchill, too. After all, the Brits had gotten used to concentration camps when they rounded up the Boers in the Boer War.
Chris Johnson
Okay.
If you don’t know where it is how do you know it’s in NYC?
If a guy is in a room and he says he doesn’t know anything about any bomb, and you don’t know where it is, what makes you think the guy knows where (or IF) it is?
If a guy is in a room, and he’s telling you there’s a bomb in NYC but nyah nyah, not going to tell you where it is, boy is that a ridiculous movie… Batman much? Pro tip- if his face is all white and in a hideous grin, you will have to solve clever riddles.
If in real life a guy is in a room and claiming you’re pwned because there’s a bomb but he’s not going to tell you where it is, allahu akbar, well you’re being played. Maybe he’s a suicide squad guy and he’s trying to waste your time. Maybe he’s trying to distract you from something else that’s happening. The very BEST possible interpretation is that he’s a would-be martyr and in telling you this he wants to be tortured for Allah, which would make him crazy, because people don’t act like Batman supervillains in real life. He could be making it all up just to fuck with you.
More likely, the guy in the real-world room insists he doesn’t know about any bomb, and we’re back to you grabbing a guy and randomly deciding he knows about a bomb in NYC… why?
LOSE the ticking-time-nuke scenario, please. I’m totally embarrassed to share a country with you comic-book-thinking maniacs. I’m sorry, it can never happen, it’s a moot point. If you have a bomb in NYC, you DO NOT HAVE a guy trapped in a room that YOU know HE knows where it is. You just don’t. Either there’s no guy, or you’re fooling yourself trying to play Tom Clancy action hero.
Liberal Masochist
Obama rocked Virginia. Have not heard the Maryland or DC results. It really will come down to Texas and Ohio. I live in Texas and so far, the national races have not really penetrated the local airwaves or papers much here. Obviously the big outlets are reporting and you can seek coverage and opinion out on the Internet, but we have not seen the ad spend by anyone yet. It feels a bit like 2004 and 2006 when the races here were, for obvious reasons, largely decided going in.
Texas will actually matter this year. Feels a bit strange. From the cheap seats down here, Obama looks good. People are talking about him and I think the momentum that someone here (previous thread) mentioned really does make people want to know more about him.
There is palpable McCain and Hillary fatigue, but that’s probably everywhere at this point.
Gentlewoman
Phil’s gonna call Che fucking Guevara, that’s how.
I don’t think John hates McCain so much as he hates you.
Just my opinion, and as this is my first day commenting on this site, you may ignore it. You know, pretend like my opinion = reality. Or my opinion = basic reading comprehension.
I know you can do it, Phil.
dwightkschrute
Funny how when Dick Cheney went to a hunting lodge that had a Confederate flag displayed on site the same bloggers were falling all over themselves to explain how he never saw it, couldn’t have known, etc. Reporters tried to get a react quote from Cheney and he of course refused. Right wing bloggers approved of the silence.
So now with a similar situation of course it’s “Obama sanctioned”, “Reflects his views”, and “he needs to denounce it now!”. Perhaps someday Websters will put “shame” and “hypocrisy” back into the Republican Dictionary.
myiq2xu
Water over the dreck?
Xenos
The whole ‘ticking time-bomb’ scenario was first put forward by Alan Dershowitz. God only knows why (best guess – an indirect defense of Israeli practices), but I remember hearing about this arrant nonsense when he published the justification about a month after 9/11 — you could feel all the air rush out of the room.
My Jesuit law school profs were NOT impressed. I took note of that considering some of my ancestors converted to Christianity under torturous duress at the hands of the Jesuits.
Into the looking glass we go…
Delia
So you torture your terrist. He tells you the bomb’s under the Brooklyn Bridge and by the time you rush over there you find out he was only fooling. It’s really in Cleveland. . . .
This whole scenario is so stupid it’s unspeakable. Is our country dumbing down? yes it is.
lee
Can we create a new internet law?
Call it ‘The Wingtard Law’, if someone uses the ticking time bomb scenario to justify torture, they are too ignorant to argue with since the scenario is not even internally consistant.
Or something like that.
libarbarian
If there was a Yankee plot to subvert the People’s Revolution and one guy in the room who knows when and where it’s going down, you can bet damn sure Che was willing to do whatever it took to get it out of him.*
*Actually, Phil. I’d torture a guy to get a nuke in NYC. The difference between you and me however, is that you and yours actually want people tortured in circumstances far less dire. You guys play around with your ridiculously unrealistic extreme examples trying to distract people from the fact that you want suspected terrorists to be tortured in fishing expeditions when we know of no bomb in NYC or even if the guy we have is a terrorist at all.
chopper
totally, because you can rationalize anything with a crazy enough hypothetical. hey, ahmedinijad has a new-fangled cobalt bomb that can destroy the earth. he’s demanding that the US kill every jew on the planet or he sets it off. what’s that? you think it’s worth it to save the rest of the human race? you’re defending the massacre of the jewish people! you monster!
hell, give someone the non-existant chance of a nuke in NYC and they’ll rationalize stabbing their only son in the back.
UnkyT
You know your a wingtard when…
You know your a wingtard when…
You know your completely off the wingtard map when…
Chris Johnson
No, the whole point is that EVEN THAT example is USELESS.
EVEN if you pull in a crazed guy and he’s laughing at you and taunting you and telling you there’s a bomb and he’s not going to tell you where it is, YOU’RE BEING PLAYED. Not even then does it make the tiniest bit of sense. Since when do they send a guy to get caught and taunt you with advance information of an attack?
And anything short of such a brazen admission, and you’re the psycho. Any “when YOU know that THEY know but they refuse to talk”… psychotic.
Macswain
Che was the Jack Bauer of his time.
chopper
totally, he was always yelling out “WHO ARE YOU WORKING FOR?!!” at random times. sometimes at his wife over the breakfast eggs.
Jake
Shorter Phil: FAIL Haz a Flavr!
I had high hopes of Phil last night. I thought we’d found a Darrell, or at least a scs, substitute to brighten our days with convincing stoopid. Now I see he’s more of an unholy mating between JWW, Cassidy and BIRDZILLA.
[sigh] The quest continues!
myiq2xu
Actually, that horndog would be really old. But he would probably still be banging movie stars.
Imagine JFK and the Big Dog, tag-teaming Scarlett Jo!
patriotboy
I go back and forth about the pro-torture people. Are they evil at the most basic level, are they drama queens who need cartoonish super-villains with diabolic super-plans to give their pathetic lives meaning, or are they simply cowards, so afraid of everything, they are willing to give up everything for a false sense of security?
TenguPhule
If I shove a glass probe down your pee hole and threaten to to break it off inside, you would swear to me on your mother’s god honest soul whatever I want you to say.
Torture doesn’t work when it comes to getting reliable information.
It works great if you want a meat puppet who repeats what you want them to say.
Those who sell their liberty for security will find they receive neither.
TenguPhule
I prefer to think of them as corpses long overdue for a firing squad.
TenguPhule
Perhaps if we require sobrierty tests before voting, Republicans would vanish from the landscape.
TenguPhule
Truer then you’d guess, EEEL. Funny how so many people have died in US custody under hastily closed up circumstances.
The state would like to present the entire loony violent Right as evidence.
Okay, you have a point here.
John, you had no reason to insult Che like that.
TenguPhule
Corrected.
If Republicans simply switched religions and skin colors, we could just declare them terrorists and get rid of them.
TenguPhule
The US government has admitted it tortured people.
McCain smiles and waves.
Biggest spending binge in US history, on a Republican watch.
Purple Bandaids. It’s all just purple bandaids.
TenguPhule
Irony of the Day.
TenguPhule
Scalia wants himself some time to think in Guantanamo.
We should oblige him.
Anne Laurie
Yes.
SATSQ.
dslak
At least Che’s behavior can be accounted for by the fact that he came from a country where dissent was often untolerated, and watched the United States help to overthrow democratically-elected governments because they showed an unacceptable interest in justice for the poor, resulting in plenty of repression and violence against people whose only crime was opposing US foreign policy.
What’s Scalia’s excuse?
Cheerful Iconoclast
So if I go on record as saying that Bush was a lousy President and I think the torture policy is bad, bad, bad, can I condemn Che idolatry?
Seriously, communism was one of the great evils of the 20th century. Che was a bad man, and it says something bad about the left wing of the Democratic Party that Obama volunteers feel the need to hang a Cuban flag with Che on it at a campaign office.
dslak
It certainly helps to be consistent, yes.
It wasn’t a campaign office, and how do you know that they needed it? Nobody other than those people knows why they put up that flag or what they thought it meant, so before going OMG COMMUNISTS!!!, maybe it would be good to get some perspective on the matter, and realize just how trivial some college-age volunteers hanging up pictures of Che is.
Conservative Soul
“Phil” becomes Che Guevara to protect himself from Che Guevara. Orwell’s rolling in his grave “Phil”.
When it comes time to fsck another man in the @ss to save us from a ticking time b0mb “Phil” will be first in line to save himself. What a patriot. Or would that be “taking [erm, doing] one for the team”?
We’ll all assume that you could at least _shoot_ straight, “Phil”, so when can we arrange a ride for you down to MEPS?
Astonishing how few Republicans have ever heard of MEPS.
TenguPhule
Good Gods, It’s like they’re the inbred spawn of Darrell’s unholy self-impregnation via futanari.
And no John, you probably don’t want to know.
CallMeChris
“Che wasn’t the first or the last person to believe in violent revolution and if you think it was his political beliefs that made him the villain, people need to go back and look at how loyalists were treated in the days of America’s own revolution. ”
FYI, loyalists were treated very well comparably, actually. Only a few were killed, by hotheads not by the government, and it was not government policy. The American revolutionaries never engaged in a policy (official or effective) of indiscriminate violence targeting loyalist civilians. Never happened.
dslak
But that concern troll really was gonna vote for Obama, right up until they found that Che flag in the office of some volunteers!
dslak
Speaking of concern trolling, here’s some at its finest.
jj
Yeah, only a “few” were killed, while all the rest were basically threatened with death if they didn’t change their allegience. And I guess all that tarring and feathering was for laughs eh?
Jake
Wait! This may be the answer to that eternal question: “Would you let a terrorist fuck you in the ass if it would stop a nuclear attack?”
Phil didn’t say he’d hurt the guy.
Jeffrey Kramer
Phil’s devotion to torture in the defense of New Yorkers is especially touching in light of the fact that McCain is going to get oh, maybe seven percent of the vote there.
“We’re going to defend you libtard dhimmicrat homomexicans with whatever it takes! Every kind of torture we can think of!”
“Thanks, but no, really, you don’t have to.”
“No, I WANT to.”
Jamey
For the record: Che bad. Che t-shirts very bad. People who wear Che t-shirts? Eleventy-million times worse than Jonah G. Hitler.
Still doesn’t make torture kosher — especially when it’s employed by a country that wants to spread humane democracy across the globe. That’s just common sense.
And Republicans hate NYC, so the ticking time bomb scenario just doesn’t wash.
Cyrus
So you’re saying it’s not?
And TenguPhule,
I agree with your other complaints about McCain, but from what admittedly little I’ve read, this isn’t fair. I didn’t know that he surrendered, but even if he did, so what? As many people have already said, people say what torturers want to hear. And as for his ex-wife, according to Wikipedia at least, the breakup had more to do with a mid-life crisis than anything else, and they remain on good terms.
McCain talks about torture while hugging Bush and he’s no more fiscally conservative than any other modern Republicans. However, as far as I know, his conduct during the war was adequate and his divorce seems to reflect on him no worse than any.
Yes. It says that they think he overthrew a U.S.-backed dictator but, more importantly, wrote a diary while riding a motorcycle around South America. Seriously, I’m 25. People my age have careers and post-graduate degrees and children and mortgages, and when Guevara died, my father wasn’t old enough to vote. I’m a little bit baffled by people who still feel threatened by communists, but more than that, I’m frustrated by the damage to our political climate.
Chris
This is asinine.
If you’re willing to do anything, you should also be willing and man enough to go before a judge and a jury of your peers and have your actions examined under the law.
Dano
“If a nuclear bomb is about to go off in NYC”…
Striving to make sense of the absolutely implausible, so here goes:
–What if bomber is lying?
–What if bomber only knows which borough?
–What if bomber only gives out address of bomb incrementally?
–What if he gives address but not detonation time?
–What if he doesn’t know the Bronx from Queens?
–What if there are 2 bombs and he only IDs 1?
Can you say KA-BOOM!? I think you can.
Timb
No, we cannot create such a law, because then Antonin Scalia, right wing orgasm inducer, could not appear on Balloon Juice or any other liberal site. Justice Scalia, not Phil, is the person who has TWICE posited the “ticking time bomb” scenario. That’s correct, Scalia, a man who refuses to place monetary damages on civil rights claims (you can’t sell your civil rights) is willing to flush the 8th Amendment, 5th Amendment, 4th Amendment, the UCMJ, and the Geneva Conventions down the toilet so some sadistic ass (Captain Flagg from MASH?) can jerk off while saving America.
Phil, on the other hand, shows the comedic chops of any good Fox News writer…poor timing, awkward concept, factually challenged…all that’s left is seeing the Roger Ailes brand on his shoulder.
EEEL, go back to PW and kiss Jeff’s ass.
Timb
Oh, and Phil, here’s a headline for you: McCain Collected $100,000 From Abramoff’s Firm
Clean as a whistle that McCain is
liberal
Phil wrote,
Americans for Democratic Action, a liberal group which has been making congressional scorecards since 1948, gives Obama a 75% rating in 2007. Now, none of that 25% is for voting the wrong way—it’s all for missing votes—but there are three Senators with 100% ratings, for example.
Jess
I thought we went over this already–wasn’t that flag already up when the volunteers were opening the office? In other words, wasn’t it as–if not more than–disconnected from Obama’s campaign (not to mention Obama himself) as the wet-suits-and-dildo outfit was from the various GOP candidates?
MFA
Jess, no fair–that guy was just torturing himself to find out if he knew if there was a bomb somewhere. Poor patriot.
.
DAS
Imagine JFK and the Big Dog, tag-teaming Scarlett Jo!
It’s all a Zionist plot. JFK was involved with Marylin Monroe (so they say … and “they” know everything, don’t they ;) ) — Jewish. The Big Dog was involved with Monica Lewinsky, who was of some Jewish origins. Scarlett Jo? Jewish … see, it’s all a Zionist plot.
moderate indy
The hallmark of the right wing is an ability to completely ignore reality and context. Was Che a murderous thug? Of course he was. Are those that see Che as a symbol of someone that fought for social justice for the little guy, against those in power, aware of what a murderous thug he ended up being? Of course they aren’t. Trying to compare the symbol that is Che, to the symbol that is the Nazi flag, is fucking moronic. Everyone is well aware of what the Nazis actually did, and the Nazi flag is a symbol of that. To those that idolize him, pictures of Che don’t symbolize his actions, or even his true political positions. He is a symbol for fighting for an oppressed people, both in Latin America, and here in our country. Misguided, yes, but that is the reality. You people that are faking the outrage over Obama supporters that may also like Che, are ignoring that reality. Are they misguided, and ignorant of history, sure but they aren’t an advocate for the type of tyranny that Che actually practiced, and for you to get all bent out of shape, and claim that they are admirers of a murderous thug is typical of the right wing. You are well aware of the fact that most young kids that sport the Che apparel, or have a poster of him have no idea about who he really was, and instead see him as someone that fought for inequality. And yet you choose to ignore these facts, and the context and pretend that these people that might have hung the posters (still not 100% clear if they were already up or if the volunteers did it) believe in Communism, and support his murderous ways. If you are a catholic, is it fair for me to characterize you as someone that supports the horrible things that the Catholic church did during its existence? No, because it might be a part of it’s history, but to you it is not what the Catholic church symbolizes.
This is just one more in a long line of right wing outrages based on ignoring the entire truth, and instead deciding to cherry pick a few facts that are then twisted to justify their outrage. It reminds me of the “John Kerry called our soldiers stupid” controversy. The right completely ignored the context in which the comment was made, which was talking about GW Bush’s lack of studying being the reason we got stuck in Iraq, and instead painted it as a slight to our armed forces. The left is guilty of this at times, but it is the meat and potatoes of the right wing.
What I find interesting is the fact that they cry about Che being a murderous thug, and yet completely, and unquestioningly stand behind a man that has ordered the wiretapping of American communications without warrants, has suspended habeas corpus, has employed the use of torture, and has invaded a sovereign nation on the theory that it might possibly pose a threat to us. I wonder who is responsible for more needless deaths of innocent civilians? Is there a difference between having your political enemies jailed, and executed, because you perceive them as a threat, and having both your, and another country’s soldiers die from a war that happened only because you decided to wage it, based on what you perceived as a possible threat?
Finally the ticking time bomb scenario…. If this ridiculous situation ever were to present itself, then anyone would do whatever necessary to extract that info. They wouldn’t care if they faced punishment, and the truth is no DA in the country would bring charges, and no jury would convict them if charges were brought, hence there is no need for a law that would give them immunity for such actions. Any law that makes torture legal will be abused by both evil and righteous men alike, all based on the idea that they are saving something, be it lives or something more nebulous like liberty.