In case there was any doubt the plagiarism absurdity was straight from the top:
As Clinton crisscrossed Wisconsin yesterday, she returned to what has become a central theme of her retooled, sharper-edged campaign, saying at one point: : “There’s a difference between speeches and solutions, between talk and action.”
Speaking to reporters last night, Clinton was asked about her campaign’s accusation of plagiarism against Obama. She said she had no idea what impact it will have on Tuesday’s vote. “I leave that to all of you to figure out,” she said, then added: “Facts are important. I’m a facts person. If your whole candidacy is based on words, it should be your own words.”
I can’t find the video right now, but there was one news report last night juxtaposing Hillary speeches with her opponents speeches, and what do you know- Hillary, by her standards, is one big fat plagiarist. Worse even than Obama! Crazy, I know!
At any rate, we will see today if this recent turn to going negative works for the Clintons. And really, that is all this is about- drive down Obama’s positives, and hope you turn away enough support that you close the margin. This is nothing about increasing support for Hillary, this is about eroding his.
Nothing that should surprise you if you lived through the last 8 years of Bush/Rove and the previous 8 years of the other Clinton. I will say it again- I will vote for the Democrat in November no matter what, but I sure would love it if Hillary’s group is knocked off their perch. It isn’t even so much Hillary as the sleaze around her. Wolfson of the upper lip sweat, the despicable Ickes, and the always odious Mark Penn, who looks like he came out of a Central Casting call for pedophiles. It would make me really happy to see those folks sent packing.
Snark Based Reality
As a self identified liberal I don’t think I could bring myself to vote for her on anything ever again. She comes off as lacking principles and frankly would be far too unpredictable. I’d rather vote for McCain in that at least I know how I’m getting screwed ahead of time…
bootlegger
The next debate should be interesting. The last time they met after some Clinton shit-slinging Obama let her have it and the next time (and last time) they were together in their dual debate everything was cozy. Maybe she’s hoping to provoke him in a debate but I think that plays into his hands. He’s responding to scurrilous charges AND can show he wouldn’t take shit from anyone, which Americans want to see from a leader who says he will talk to that Iranian wacko. I’m really looking forward to the next debate.
The Other Steve
Sure. More Clinton hating.
When are you going to get over this, and just acknowledge that Hillary is the most experienced and most competent candidate?
Mary
Hey, did you know that pledged delegates (the ones assigned by votes in each state) are really “pledged” delegates? WTF is the point of holding all these expensive and time-consuming caucuses and primaries if this is true?
Rarely Posts
I honestly don’t understand why this isn’t a valid criticism on Hillary’s part. Obama recycled a speech that Deval Patrick used. That’s change?
Please explain.
The Other Steve
There’s nothing in the rules that says Hillary can’t convinced pledged delegates to vote for her. How dare you insinuate she is doing something unseemly!
Obviously you are a mysogynist who hates women.
GraniteStater
Color me cynical, but is there a broader picture being painted here? Is it possible that Clinton is driving down Obama’s positives in an attempt to damage him going into the fall?
Who benefits from an Obama loss in the general election? I can’t see a 68 year old Clinton running in 2016…but a 64 year old – maybe.
Jen
I’ve always said I’d vote for her if she were the nominee, but I saw that pledged delegates thing this a.m. myself. If she wins through superdelegates, flipping the pledged delegates, FL or MI (other than a re-do), basically any of those underhanded procedural maneuvers, though? I won’t. I just can’t see rewarding her for that behavior. The idiotic and desperate stuff “ZOMG Michelle hates America and Barack steals his speeches”, I can get over as idiotic and desperate. The calculating manipulation of procedure in order to subvert popular opinion, I just can’t forgive. I realize that attitude, if everyone takes it, may well elect McCain. But I’d rather have my soul taken in a fair fight than just give it up willingly.
That could’ve been a mixed metaphor. Sorry.
The Other Steve
I just want to say
Mega dittos for Taylor Marsh!
Michelle Obama does not speak for me either!
The Grand Panjandrum
You should be proud of yourself TOS. You have assumed the mantle well. Way to go!
HAhahahahaha! Now I have to go cough up lung.
zzyzx
The pledged delegate stuff comes up a lot. People are always afraid of it happening and it never does. Remember faithless electors from 2000?
The main problem with this stupid charge is that yesterday was a slow news day. With Castro now, it’ll be hard for it to get any more traction. The only question is if it did enough damage to swing Wisconsin. Fingers crossed, because I can’t handle 4 more years of this crap.
Jorge
There is one major flaw in the Clinton/McCain argument that Obama is all words and has no substance.
He actually has substance. Having read his first book (which was not Ghost Written) looked at his record as a Senator and seen his policy proposals, I can say with out reservation that he offers a hefty ammount of policy weight and knowledge.
Obama knows that his campaign strength is his ability to make a speech and inspire. So that is what he is concentrating on… But any little bit of research shows that he is also a person of intellectual weight and accomplishment.
As the country gets to know him and his record, it makes his detractors look shallow and lazy.
He also seems to understand that the person who controls the nature of the argument mosgt often wins the argument. If you think about it, Clinton’s attacks on Obama begin with her admitting that he is an inspirational figure who fills people with hope. His begin with the fact that she is a continuation of the divisiveness, politics as usual nature of DC. Advantage Obama.
The Other Steve
How much do you want for it? Perhaps you’d be willing to sell your soul for a small profit?
The Other Steve
But Hillary obviously offers more substance. That’s the point of her attacks.
Jen
What bothered me was much less that it could happen, because I don’t think it will. I’m sure those delegates are pretty loyal and have a normal instinct for self-preservation. What bothered me is that they put it on the table. Whoever their confidential “official” was, he said they would do that if the votes were close. He went on to speak for the Obama campaign too, assuming they would do it too.
Wilfred
Maybe the only to see the latter is to pull back from the former. She’s counting on way kind of thinking; maybe its time to say that such support is not unconditional. It isn’t in my case. If she wins by submarining Obama, she’s not getting my vote.
Jorge
If she runs against McCain, I’ll remember that this was the argument her supporters made in the primaries and pull the lever for the guy with nearly 50 years of full time public service.
You guys do realize that she will get killed by the Reps on all of this experience should be the deciding factor talk, right?
zmulls
I thought delegates were only pledged on the first ballot. you pledge to vote for Candidate X on the first ballot, and if there’s no winner, it’s a free for all (it would have to be — otherwise you’d keep voting the same way for weeks). For years and years, candidates have been racking up enough pledged first-ballot delegates to make any talk of a second ballot superfluous.
If enough delegates were to say publicly “I am pledged to vote for Candidate X, but I’m convinced to switch to Candidate Y on the second ballot” to make Candidate Y the sure second-ballot winner, that might change the game. I’m assuming that’s what the “going after pledged delegates” is about.
The “plagiarism” charge is total nonsense. It was nonsense when it was used against Biden. If you read “What It Takes,” Richard Ben Cramer goes into great detail about that, and Biden usually credited Kinnock on the stump, and got recorded one of the times he didn’t, at the end of a long day. And it was such a trivial thing. Candidates talk, and on the stump I have no doubt that several borrow. You can be sure Clinton is borrowing language from other candidates when it works (see: Edwards, John).
I was an Edwards guy, until he dropped out. And at that time I was truly undecided, but leaning to Clinton. I had problems with both Obama and Clinton, but was definitely looking to her “experience” and was not sure about the Magic Unity Pony.
But after SC, and see Bill Clinton all over my TV set (when I thought I was thinking of voting for someone else); and seeing the sort of crap her inner circle of advisers have been putting forward, I’m leaning the other way. Hard.
I don’t want Mark Penn (and his ilk) to take the Karl Rove chair in the White House. And I’m not convinced that won’t happen.
Jen
Jorge, TOS is trying his hand at being a Hillbot. He’s o.k. at it, but far too calm thus far.
Punchy
Anyone wanna start laying wagers that Cole repudiates his new D party, starts drinking on a daily basis, and votes R in November after the Clagina finds a way to five-finger enough superdellys to Svengalistically finagle a Gen Elly nomination?
Jorge
Whoops – missed the nature of these posts.
Yes, she has the experieness.
Dan
Rarely Posts…
What don’t you understand? Obama has speechwriters, Clinton has speechwriters. Obama talks with his friends and shares ideas (which is what this is all about). Clinton does the same, though unfortunately many of her advisers appear to be…less than stellar.
Hillary Clinton is criticizing Obama for doing something that is ethical, normal, expected, and even admirable (yes, sharing ideas with friends is admirable). That makes this a pretty pathetic attack.
Since Hillary does this herself, it exposes Hillary to charges of rank hypocrisy that are frankly a bit hard to dispute.
And please, don’t pretend that Obama’s campaign is “just words”. Many folks such as myself became supporters of Obama because he displayed a consistent record on causes that they support. (My hot-button issue is transparency & accountability in government. Obama has been a consistent champion of this with a long and admirable record. Clinton quite the opposite, sadly.)
Now, Obama is certainly a better public speaker than Hillary, so she attacks him for a campaign of words. From the perspective of someone who appreciates Obama for the causes he champions and the legislation he has passed (and opposed), these attacks are beyond pathetic.
I really miss the days when I respected and admired Hillary Clinton. It saddens me.
Jen
I’m not a delegate or superdelegate, Hillary.
cleek
sure. slime is a substance
Zifnab
I feel like I’m watching the Gore/Bush race in 2000, where I start out thinking “Yeah, they’re basically the same candidate in different suits”. By the end, supporting Gore was so much easier if only because Bush kept opening his mouth.
If Hillary manages to strong-arm a victory at the convention (which, at this rate, is going to need to take place at gunpoint) I might just end up writing in Obama out of sheer spite. Maybe just write his name in the margins.
I’m just saying… come on! What the hell are you even doing anymore?
Billy K
Hillary is making it really hard for me to pull the lever for her if she is the nominee. I can’t be the only one. And it is all on her. No one is forcing her to throw this garbage out there. If she fails to win the nomination, it’s on her. If she depresses turnout in the general and loses, that’s on her.
If she wants to turn to slime, she’s gonna have to live with the repercussions of that slime. And to all her supporters just waiting to play the victim again, I’m giving you a pre-emptive “STFU.” She’s bringing this disgust upon herself.
Dan
Other Steve
Hillary in fact does not offer more substance.
Perhaps you should actually research the candidates records and positions.
Both candidates offer quite a lot of substance, particularly compared to their republican rivals. Clinton is 15 years older than Obama, but that’s about the only area where she could be said to have more substance.
Now, you may be tempted to throw out her time as the wife of the president as some testament to her executive mettle, but her record there is decidedly unfavorable. (There’s a reason we haven’t had meaningful healthcare reform over the past 15 years.)
Look at both candidates records, look at what they have accomplished, at what they have stood for, at what they have fought for.
It really isn’t hard to find. But it does take a wee bit of effort on your part.
Zifnab
And then there’s this (from Dkos)
Wtf, man! W.T.F! I used to joke about “snatching defeat from the jaws of victory” thinking that perhaps fortune or common sense was not always on the side of our Democrats in office. Now… now I don’t even know. If this is how Bill won back in ’92, I think I understand how we lost the House in ’94.
cleek
you’re not.
the word “undervote” has been bouncing around in my head for a while now. i could happily vote straight D, except for President; i could leave that blank.
TR
So, looks like I’ll be making another donation to Obama today.
Fuck you, Mark Penn.
TR
It really isn’t hard to find. But it does take a wee bit of effort on your part.
The Other Steve is pretending to be a Hillarybot. Don’t make him pretend to do research too.
The Other Steve
WHAT!? You want Bush to have four more years!
You don’t have a choice. You have to vote for Hillary!
Billy K
QFT. And I sincerely mean it.
Mr Furious
I’m not wading back through yesterday’s thread, but I’m sure this was brought up…if not here it is again to answer “rarely posts” upthread:
Patrick used “Yes we Can” in 2006 after Obama used it in 2004…Obama not only had “permission” to use the response, he had Patrick’s blessing, and PAtrick’s insistence to use them without attribution.
After all, he whole thing is just quoting famous speeches anyway.
This is fucking pathetic on the part of Clinton, and like John I cannot wait for them to be sent packing. And if they keep this shit up I might reach the previously unthinkable (for me) level where I, too, refuse to reward the behavior come November.
The Other Steve
Substance is a lot more than just pretty words. You Obama freaks might want to remember that when you have to take on John McCain!
The Other Steve
Taking off my pro-Hillary hat for a moment.
McCain’s new nickname… Yawn McCain
Billy K
TOS, I liked it better when I thought you were just a moran on matters of tech. I really hope someone is appropriating your handle.
Dan
The Other Steve
What some of us are worried about is that a Hillary candidacy will lead to “four more years of Bush”
She is the only potential Democratic nominee who could single-handedly motivate the currently demoralized Republican base to turn out in large numbers. If you combine that with primary/convention tactics that will demoralize/disenfranchise a large segment of the Democratic base then you have a Republican resurgence on your hands.
Nobody wants that.
So ask yourself…why is the candidate that you so wholeheartedly support apparently willing to demolish her party’s chances simply to secure a nomination?
The Other Steve
Oh sure, more hillary hate.
Just remember that McCain isn’t hated. He’s a far stronger candidate than anybody the Democrats have, and the only way we’ll beat him is if we can out organize him.. an area Obama is obviously lacking in.
The Other Steve
Well that’s not something I’m concerned about. I’m more interested in motiviating the Democratic base to show up.
Scotty
Red State has the exact same post up. Which one is lamer?
The Other Steve
Well quite obviously you are too stupid to know anything.
The Other Steve
Sometimes a stopped clock is right only twice.
Billy K
Funny. Obama has managed to out-organize Hillary so far by quite a bit.
OK, either you had a personality transplant, or someone different is using this name.
Jen
How many times do we have to say that The Other Steve is spoofing? By my count, that’s like four. Or are you return-spoofing?
SPTGM
If this lifelong MA resident and current Obama fan is faced with a choice of Hillary or Walnuts I’ll be writing in Pat Paulsen if he’s still alive, and Joe Walsh if Pat has passed. This latest move was the absolute last straw for me, and like you say, it’s not even Clinton herself, but the people she surrounds herself with that completely disgust me.
over_educated
I think TOS is trying his hand at spoofing, which seems to be going well judging by the responses.
To make a serious pro-Clinton point (from an Obama guy) I think the point of all this craziness is to show that she is a fighter. One thing I hate, hate, hate about my own party is its tendency to roll over every time the Republicans yell “Boo.” Remembering how many times the Clintons out maneuvered them during the 90’s still brings a smile to my face.
Having said that, I think her time has passed, and this flailing is not doing her or the Democratic party much good.
Neal
Thank you. Great comment.
I still don’t know how 8 years in the senate equates to 35 years of experience…
Jen
This should do it…
Zifnab
I don’t know if you’ve been keeping up with Republican Primary Politics, but McCain was – until just two weeks ago – openly reviled by core conservatives. Riehl, Hewitt, Coulter, et al. were banging the drum for Hillary over McCain just on principle.
Meanwhile, Obama is pulling in record numbers of new, young voters, and has the highest fundraising stash in the race. If dollars were votes, he’d be your next President.
Obama has, easily, the most passionate and diverse following. He’s got superior poll numbers to McCain, and he’s got a penchant for outperforming his own polls. His historical baggage is virtually non-existent, he’s running in the right party (D) for the times and riding a wave of populist support. The man is a rock star who’s won the last 8 primaries straight.
When compared to McCain, he draws in bigger crowds, generates more donations, wins over more age groups and constituencies…
But McCain is the strongest, most organized candidate in the race.
But fear not oh yeah of little faith. The Magic Unity Pony shall sweep you into his saddle in due time. For he is the way, the truth, and the light, and shall come to restore honor, integrity, and competence to our fair nation. O-men.
Billy K
I don’t think it’s the same guy. I argued with about computer platforms 4 or 5 months ago. Someone by the name “The Other Steve” had some clear Mac Derangement Syndrome, but he didn’t sound like this idiot.
Neal
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Oh Jesus, Steve, make it stop.
Dan
The Other Steve,
Yes, substance is a lot more than pretty words. I covered that in that very post that you quoted without apparently reading.
Any particular reason you decided to call me a freak? Pretty uncalled for given the tone of our conversation so far. Of course, I suppose stooping to insults is fine when you have nothing of substance to say. And yes, substance is a lot more than ugly words.
You really ought to research the records of both candidates before you parrot the lines of the Clinton campaign. Tell you what, Hilzoy made it easy for you.
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2008/02/obama-actually.html
Now read that, go ahead and independently verify the facts for yourself, and come back and try and make your substanceless substance claim again.
Or are you too much of a…hillaryfreak…to actually verify your claims.
The Other Steve
But only in states that don’t count.
Dan
Bah, I took the bait
Well done sir, I applaud your high-quality clintonism :)
zzyzx
The great thing about floating the trial balloon of flipping pledged delegates is that she must be feeling all of other plans are failing.
The Other Steve
Figures an Obama cultist would also be a Mac cultist.
Z
Well, the good news is that there is a chance the Democrats will retain the House and Senate. Hopefully, they will pick up a few more seats in the Senate. If that is the case, then a vote for McCain is a vote for divided government. That will console me if Hillary’s group wins through sleaze.
The Other Steve
Are you insane? Clinton is going to win this thing by march 5th, and Obama will be done!
DONE I TELL YOU!
DONE!
And good riddance, too!
The Other Steve
That’s the worst aspect of Obama. His strength down ticket. He’ll cause us to lose control of both the Senate and the House.
The Other Steve
All right, I’m done for the day. I think I’m going to take my act on the road. Maybe spend some time over at taylormarsh.com. :-)
The Grand Panjandrum
Thanks for the ride pardner. I’ve been laughing so hard, I’m about to cough up a lung (got that nasty flu), but you made my morning. I’m going to invite you up to our place in Vermont this summer to do a little fishing, because you sure do know how to reel them in.
Well played, sir. Well played.
Billy K
Shouldn’t come as a surprise. Didn’t they declame Obama the “Mac” and Clinton the “PC” a few weeks ago?
Sounds about right to me.
Billy K
Are you kidding? They’re looking at 2-5 seat pickup in the Senate and Lord knows how many in the House. I don’t think losing either is a realistic possibility.
Shygetz
I like J. Sidney McCain III. Sums it up quite nicely.
TheFountainHead
I will now don my HazMat suit and train my browser over to Hillaryis44.com. I pledge to bring back the most beautiful gems said glorious mine has to offer.
Rarely Posts
Dan,
What I don’t understand is this. Obama took the idea of Deval’s speech and used it. I don’t see how that fits with his squeaky hope for change image. Because it isn’t change if it’s already been used by another candidate. I’m not talking about the words, I’m talking about the idea.
Billy K
Wait! Come back! I was just getting into it!
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
Please, John, warn me before you do that. I look like a nut cackling out in staccato, like Chris Matthews being bludgeoned with a rubber chicken.
Mary
Oh, for fuck’s sake.
One of the TPM commenters: “While we are on the subject, Obama has never explicitly spoken to the subject of whether he intends to hire a hit-man to assasinate Sen Clinton in the next debate. Sen Clinton has already ruled out such measures, and it is time for Sen Obama to make his intentions on this subject clear…”
libarbarian
You must be trolling because You cannot possibly mean this.
The only reason Obama is still in the race is because he out-organized Clinton on every level.
montana
Someone please explain to me: 1) what exactly is Hillary’s experience? and 2) except for the D and the R behind their names what is the difference between Rove/Bush and Penn/Wolfson/Clinton. None based on actions – they don’t have a message so they rely on sleazy swift boat tactics and aim for 50.1%. Despite the fact that I have always voted for the Democratic candidate, this group is so distasteful and a continuation of the same I may not be able to do so if they win the nomination. It pains me to write it. And, shame on Taylor Marsh.
Billy K
Do you feel that up your leg?
ThymeZone
Obama, as quoted in an ABC news article from December.
Pirated from another thread, but this thread isn’t complete without this information. There is NO plagiarism story here, never was.
There are two outrages, one is that the Clintons have nothing but this kind of crap to offer right now, and the other is that this story goes NOWHERE without a flaccid, stupid, evil and dishonest press to help gin it up.
They ginned up a fucking war, surely a little campaing contretemps is nothing for them, right? Breathless utterings from the penile Wolf Blitzer, the constant repetition of the “word for word” copy of the speech from Patrick to Obama … all complete bullshit.
Seitz
Yeah, but did either of them have permission from the 1979 California Angels? I doubt it. Plagiarizers.
gypsy howell
So is Hillary saying that she writes all her own speeches, and that she intends to continue doing so once she’s in the White House?
Because otherwise, they ain’t her words either.
This is the stupidest line of attack yet. But I can rest assured if I wait a day, an even stupider one will come down the pike from the Clinton campaign.
demimondian
TOS — the nation appreciates your service this morning.
chopper
this is the single dumbest thing i’ve heard all month.
IU1995
John,
I understand and respect your position on wanting to support the democrat no matter who gets the nomination. Up until recently, I felt the same way. Even though I’m for Obama, I have gone to battle for Hillary A LOT … at home and at work. I really believed that any of the top 6 democratic candidates (Obama, Clinton, Edwards, Richardson, Dodd or Biden) would be 100% better than what the other side has to offer. And yes, I was one of those people who was hoping for the “dream” Dem-ticket.
I know there is a lot of back and forth about the behavior of supporters of both campaigns … and I’ll admit, some of these people have lost their ever loving minds in the way they are supporting their candidate. However, the Clinton campaign itself has gotten just as knee deep in the mud as some of these dumbass supporters. To me, that’s inexcusable. They should know better and should be held to a higher standard than Average Joe. No, they haven’t sunk to the level of starting the “Obama fathered a black baby” negativity but at this point, I wouldn’t put it past them.
It just seems that every day, a new line of negative crap comes out of the Clinton campaign that makes it harder and harder for me to be able to stomach her name anywhere near the general election ballot. It feels like Karl Rove politics all over again and if that’s what it takes for her to get the nomination then I’ll pass.
So as much as it pains me to admit it, I’ve changed my mind. If Hillary does manage to get the nomination, I won’t be voting for her in November. I know I am only 1 person. She’s been quick to dismiss other votes that don’t matter … so why should I be any different? But at least I’ll know that I wasn’t an enabler to her mudslinging quest for power.
Gus
I’ll still vote for Senator Clinton if she gets the nom, but I’ll be holding my nose. So sad. If two months ago you had told me she’d be the nominee, I’d have said I would be happy to vote for her. Now I will see her as the lesser of two evils.
dj spellchecka
somebody wrote: “Just remember that McCain isn’t hated. He’s a far stronger candidate than anybody the Democrats have, and the only way we’ll beat him is if we can out organize him.. an area Obama is obviously lacking in.”
that would explain obama’s fundraising lead.
eric jung
I don’t know if anybody has told any of you this, but those black babies of Obama’s are a QUARTER WHITE!!! It really makes you wonder what kind of jungle-fever boot-knockation has been going on in the Obama household. Maybe Rezbo has something to do with it.
Chinn Romney
This reminds me of my major problem with this Clinton Woman. Doesn’t she realize that we’re in danger of losing control of the Country to the Hispanics? And yet she has only produced one – ONE! – white child to help stem the tide. Obviously that’s all we can expect from her too. Pitiful. I’m saying this not as a Morman, but as a Patriotic ‘Merican.