Have at it. I may try to watch but I am really debated out and my mind is made up. I will vote for a Democrat in November.
Reader Interactions
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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. keep building.
Their boy Ron is an empty plastic cup that will never know pudding.
“What are Republicans afraid of?” Everything.
Impressively dumb. Congratulations.
If you voted for Trump, you don’t get to speak about ethics, morals, or rule of law.
Radicalized white males who support Trump are pitching a tent in the abyss.
Oh FFS you might as well trust a 6-year-old with a flamethrower.
Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.
This country desperately needs a functioning fourth estate.
fuckem (in honor of the late great efgoldman)
Cancel the cowardly Times and Post and set up an equivalent monthly donation to ProPublica.
Nothing worth doing is easy.
I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.
There are more Russians standing up to Putin than Republicans.
The desire to stay informed is directly at odds with the need to not be constantly enraged.
The unpunished coup was a training exercise.
Jesus watching the most hateful people claiming to be his followers
Trumpflation is an intolerable hardship for every American, and it’s Trump’s fault.
You are so fucked. Still, I wish you the best of luck.
Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.
I have other things to bitch about but those will have to wait.
“Facilitate” is an active verb, not a weasel word.
Never give a known liar the benefit of the doubt.
Optimism opens the door to great things.
Scotty
Is it just me or is Hillary’s hair getting more and more mullet-like?
Chris
What is this? Debate 19? Barring an epic-level faux pas, I’m not seeing this mattering much in the long run.
Maybe some Double Dare style physical challenges to keep things interesting.
Daniel Munz
Scotty, I caught that too. 35 years of experience up front, party in the back!
Mary
That basic cut is easy to turn into either a mullet or a Jane-Fonda-in-Klute. I’m having my hair trimmed tomorrow and am praying my stylist doesn’t make the same mistake.
Dennis - SGMM
That’s Hillary’s Southern Strategy.
AkaDad
You’re gonna regret that vote when the nukes hit.
Davebo
Obama starts of staggering but I think he’s finding his groove.
Barack! Blow your nose!
That kill’s em
TheFountainHead
I have no idea how there are any Americans who haven’t heard all this already.
Keith
Every time Hillary opens her eyes so wide you can see the tops of her eyeballs, take a drink. Fun game when Giuliani was in the race, too.
null pointer exception
You know, when it comes to policies, Hillary is not so bad. If only her judgment were as good.
IanY77
I just can’t take it. If you don’t know who you’re for at this point, you just don’t care enough.
Daniel Munz
Null, I agree. It’s never been Hillary’s policies that moved me away from her — although the AUMF vote and her general hawkishness are totally unnerving — but her view of how politics itself works. She seems to have totally abandoned the idea of politics as a mechanism of persuasion, which is an especially glaring fault in a year when a non-trivial chunk of the country is feeling persuadable.
Natascha
Hillary’s strategy so far is to go for the applause lines.
Mary
Yep. Saw that. Obama’s getting these little ripples of applause as he talks about his policies, but Clinton’s doing a more focused job of personalizing the issues.
TheFountainHead
Yeah…so far they are both doing well but I’m not sure it matters much anymore.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
No, no, her policies are pretty lame too.
She can’t say torture is always wrong despite the fact that the Republican front-runner pretty much has taken her same position. And despite the fact that everyone that’s emotionally stable understands that torture is ALWAYS WRONG. Like how raping infants is ALWAYS WRONG.
She’s going to force everyone to buy healthcare. But don’t worry, it’s not like you’re required to buy healthcare. It’s like auto-insurance, it’s only required if you have a body.
Because, you know, you may step on someone’s toes, and then they have to go to the hospital, and then your health-insurance has to pay them the Collision pay-out.
And don’t mind the fact that your forced to pay in for someone else’s cancer even though they’re 75. It’s completely rational to spend exorbitant amounts of money to keep people past life-expectancy alive.
Her policies are weak sauce. No spine. Can’t say “no” to anyone.
John S.
This is a very clever strategy, I think.
As I see it, Obama is turning the tables on Clinton. He’s playing her role of the policy wonk and letting her go for the charismatic leader. Only problem is that he is much better at being a policy wonk than she is at being the charismatic leader. He steals a little of Hillary’s ammunition in this criticism of him, but has been playing the role of the applause-line grabber for far too long to lose that mantle.
I hate to say it, but to some extent Obama’s support has a lot to do with personality (not exactly in cultish proportions, though) and that isn’t something one can expand much upon this late in the game. Hillary’s strengths have been her experience and detailed policies, while Obama’s strengths are about leadership and change.
Obama can borrow a little of Hillary’s strengths, but I don’t think she can be as effective in return. I think that’s what I’m seeing tonight.
TR
What’s with Hillary’s Ming the Merciless outfit? Was Mark Penn worried she wasn’t projecting a brittle enough image?
Davebo
Obama plays the Silly Season Card!
I think that’s sexist.
Mary
OK, some fire and a slam dunk from Obama on the plagiarism issue.
Mary
Weaker applause for Clinton re “if your candidacy is going to be about words, they should be your own”.
ThymeZone
OMFG, Obama just hit a grand slam home run on the plagiarism question.
This debate was already his, and he just turned it into a rout.
OMFG! The idiot bitch is pressing the point after he already told her that the lines came from one of the key people in his campaign!
Oh christ, I see but I don’t believe it. This woman couldnt sell a piece of ass on a troop train.
Lord. Somebody get the hook on her.
TheFountainHead
She blows my mind with her insipidness.
TR
And the Clinton campaign was officially pronounced dead at 9:01 pm.
Why is she still pressing the idiotic plagiarism stuff after Obama parried it away so well? Jesus, lady, you just got booed before a Democratic crowd.
leinie
Delurking for a minute – you guys entertain me.
Was watching, not now. When Obama was talking about her inferences that his supporters are ‘delusional’, and she got that kind of frozen smiley-smirk on her face, did anyone else see Bush?
Cuz for a minute there, she looked to me like Bush does when he’s lying, only more frozen. I was already riding the MUP, but damn, that look? That caused flashbacks, and I want none of that.
Davebo
OMFG! TZ just called Senator Clinton a bitch.
Hey, I love the magical unity pony as much as the next guy dude.
But how about we don’t feed into the hillaryis44.com ok?
Just this once.
TR
Yeah, those people are already at a state of white-hot insanity as it is. They don’t need our help.
Mary
I’m listening upstairs and missed the booing. Seriously?
Jen
How many times did she say “Texas and Ohio and elsewhere”? Slightly more subtle than “Texas and Ohio and Pennsylvania”, but not too much.
myiq2xu
Let’s hope that Obama doesn’t counter with a Trent Lott Helmet Hairdo.
Blow-dry and Aqua-net isn’t his style.
Mary
Don’t make me distract you with my nipples, TZ.
Liberal Masochist
Not watching right now, but wanted comment from earlier today.
Agree with Chris (last comment two threads ago), Hillary tried to go big early and had no contingency plan when that did not work. Since ST, she has been getting her clock cleaned by Obama in terms of victories, press etc. This is not debatable. Bottom line: her strategy was bad and her tactics can’t catch up (that OOMA loop thingy from yesterday probably does fit). Obama’s strategy was a long(er)view and that as it turned out paid off (more grass roots, more relentless, better organized – nine innings). He HAD to play it this way though since he was not the front runner early on. Tactically he has been solid, but he has not been stressed the way HRC been the past month. She is losing on tactics now after losing on strategy earlier. IMHO McCain can’t carry either of their jocks in the GE, although HRC makes it much closer in November if she is the donkey.
I live in Houston, work in finance (banking) in the oil and gas industry (you can probably cease wondering about my gender unlike Jen or myiq – who is a woman by the way!). AND very liberal on the issues – I catch endless shit about this at work. This is anecdotal, but there is something palpable about Obama at work here. People are talking about him. Oil men, finance guys that, in 2004, you would have been better off going outside and banging your head against the curb rather than debating them about what a numbskull Dubya is. Most of these guys are young enough and educated and even the fog is lifting when you talk about the MUP. Clearly most of them will not vote for Obama, but they are engaged and interested. Mention Hillary and the darkness returns. Their minds are made up about her and they will vote GOP if she is the one. Like I said anecdotal, but that’s my view from the cheap seats in Houston.
p.lukasiak
okay, I score it
round one to Clinton
round two to Obama
(throughout the first segment of the debate, I thought the audience was full of mostly Clinton supporters — the second segment proved that theory wrong.)
ThymeZone
Did you see that plagiarism exchange? What on god’s earth was she thinking when she tried to press the point after he hit the ball into the next county already? When he explained about how Patrick works on his campaign, people were laughing in the audience at the absurdity of the “issue.” He was talking about using Patrick’s lines in December for crissakes. AND STILL SHE PRESSED THE POINT.
This woman is either a bitch, or just a damned fool.
OMG, I didn’t think she could surprise me any more with the negative foolishness. I was wrong.
myiq2xu
Yeah, he didn’t steal Patrick’s words, he used them with permission.
TR
Yep, she made a lame crack about how Obama wasn’t “change we can believe in,” but “change we can xerox.”
The crowd turned on her like she was a NAMBLA recruiter.
Pooh
Grandpa SimpsonTZ needs his Tapioca early tonight I see.(fetches popcorn)
Scotty
That’s been asked of her quite a few times these past few weeks.
Davebo
Shorter Hillary…
Screw your question… I’ve got shit the Mexican doesn’t want to talk about.
Senator Obama? Would you like to redirect Senator Clinton’s statement that had nothing to do with our question?
ThymeZone
Yes, he said so in December. WTF is the matter with you?
myiq2xu
I dunno, I was agreeing with you.
TR
For what it’s worth, I took that as sarcasm too.
ThymeZone
Okay, my bad. I thought you were being sarcastic.
And stop agreeing with me, it makes me nervous.
:)
myiq2xu
I was using regular font, not sarcastic
Mary
Now is he willing to point to her campaign explosion to counter the “ready on day 1” nonsense?
Liberal Masochist
Bill Schneider’s blog – he maintains Hillary “drew first blood:”
He also plagiarized Doughbob or mocked him. I can’t tell which! See last sentence.
AUSTIN, Texas (CNN) — Clinton successfully brought up the issue of healthcare — an issue where she clearly thinks she has the upper hand over Obama.
She is calling for mandated coverage, while Obama is calling for reduced costs that he says will result in everyone buying coverage.
On the substance of this issue she has a very strong case. Most economists agree Obama’s plan will not result in universal health care. Why? Because no matter how cheap it is, if given the option, some people will still prefer to purchase something else.
But Obama tactfully used the issue to make a larger point he has been repeatedly been touching on tonight. He says even if the two disagree slightly on the issue, he has a better chance to get it passed because of his fundamentally different approach — he paints himself as a consensus builder while Clinton is a partisan fighter.
It’s an argument that is central to his change theme.
myiq2xu
Her campaign has “imploded” not “exploded”
Mary
Yeah, I saw those treasonous, unintended first two letters just as I clicked the submit button. Am SO ashamed.
TR
Correct.
However, fatass idiots Mark Penn and Howard Wolfson have certainly exploded.
ThymeZone
Clinton handles surge question nicely. Good for her.
Natascha
Slam dunk for Obama on Iraq. He needs to shoot down her only talking point that he’s not ready to be commander-in-chief.
Mary
Clinton is smart, and she does have a hell of a lot to offer, but she has so totally lost me with her campaign’s flailing incompetence. (Not that I could ever vote for any of them anyway, of course.) And yeah, you guys need proper universal health care already.
Jorge
Has Obama crapped himself on stage or declared an undying love for Hitler? If not, he wins this debate.
Scotty
Obama’s ‘Clinton voted to authorize the war’ move. Check mate.
ThymeZone
Obama handles surge question well too. Nice nod to service people.
Obama hits another homer with the plea for veterans benefits.
Obama wins this point, but they both did well on the question.
ThymeZone
Wow. This game is over. Obama is just kicking ass and taking names now.
TR
I believe, technically speaking, those debate moves are known as the Tommy Thompson and the Pat Buchanan.
AkaDad
I think Hillary is giving men a pause about supporting her.
srv
The music is exciting.
p.lukasiak
Round three… a draw. Hillary won on health care, but Obama won on Iraq (Hillary needs to come up with a response to Obama — ask him if he thinks that Saddam had refused to co-operate with the inspections, and had been developing nuclear weapons, that the US should not have lead a UN authorized coalition into Iraq)
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Hillary has done nothing to change the current story – her campaign is failing and has nothing left in the tank.
SmilingPolitely
Whoever dressed Hillary should be fired. That collar looks like she should have a matching cape. Yikes! And if that wasn’t enough, that large collar, plus its adorning white accent, combined with her necklace, makes it look as though she is wearing some strange device wrapped around her neck. It’s very distracting.
John Cole
I will not tolerate people calling Hillary a bitch. You all have been warned.
She may not be the choice of many people here, but she is on the right side of many issues right now even if she is the wrong person for President, and even if she does not win the nomination, we need her fighting the good fight.
Not to mention it is sexist and uncalled for and makes you look like an asshole.
Davebo
To dream, the impossible dream….
You’ve gotta be kidding me…
srv
Whenever I use it, I mean it in a nice way. Not like the rest of your riff-raft.
Davebo
Good job Mr. Cole.
The question of who should be the democratic nominee is akin to the age old question of the worst blow job I ever got.
The worst was still pretty fucking good.
myiq2xu
I’m not checking his drawers. Are you volunteering?
Snark Based Reality
“Not to mention it is sexist and uncalled for and makes you look like an asshole.”
I don’t get this really. “Asshole” seems inappropriate to apply to a woman and “Bitch” is now off the table so what profanity are we allowed to use?
ThymeZone
Heh. Funny. Actually, her answer made her look like an asshole. Which was my point. You’re right, I should have called her an asshole.
My bad.
Natascha
Ya know, John, there are certain epithets that have fit certain candidates perfectly.
Mitt Romnney= Douchebag
Rudolph Giuliani= Asshole
Clinton’s is no exception.
srv
Americans are tired.
Bill had a bad childhood too, Barack.
Asti
With all the challenges she’s had… (she’s NOT prepared to be President with talk like that).
ThymeZone
Clinton gives good answer to “challenges” question.
Jorge
For magical unity droppings? I can get good money for those on the internets.
Natascha
Clinton grinning from ear to ear: Yes! Bill cheating on me has finally paid off!
TR
Eh… “Hey, remember when my husband cheated on me?” is an odd applause line.
t jasper parnell
I had no idea for whom I was going to vote; however, HRC’s plagiarism controversy made me ill. She ought to have said: you’re right and moved on.
ThymeZone
Oooh, honored to be here with Barack Obama. Nice move.
She scores two points in two minutes.
ninerdave
This last question and Hillary’s answer are giving me cavities.
Mary
Who the hell asked that pandering question about life challenges? Ick! I hate hearing either of them have to answer it, but I’m finding Hillary especially hard to take, with her excavation of the old “People ask me how I carry on …” maudlin crap.
WTF — how did she just get that standing ovation?
John Cole
I have no idea why she was bringing up the wounded vets. If Barack were a lesser man, he would have pointed out who vote got them in that situation. Mine and hers.
Asti
Yeah, as long as she’s civil when she arrives and civil when she leaves what happens in between doesn’t count as not being civil. hehe.
ThymeZone
Final Score:
Obama 123 Clinton 4
Closer than I thought it would be.
Scotty
In my opinion Obama won. He didn’t trip up and Clinton wasn’t able to drag him down. We get to do this all over in about a week, right?
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Clinton has nothing – if she had anything left in the tank it would have showed tonight.
She wasn’t awful or cringeworthy – most of the time she was warm and pleasant with her usual command of the issues. But that’s how she has been in the overwhelming majority of debates and it was nothing new.
Snark Based Reality
So does this mean we all get to abuse a new “… that you can Xerox” meme?
Asti
Feminists who are only supporting her because of her gender. Couldn’t you tell there was a huge feminist movement attending?
p.lukasiak
Round Four – Clinton by a hair… her final statement was just a tad too schmaltzy to be as effective as it could have been, but her overall answer was better than Obama’s. (One of Obama’s deficiencies is his lack of dealing with crisis while in public life — this question highlighted that.)
srv
Isn’t Jane Hamsher in Austin, or is that Wonkette?
ThymeZone
I thought the Standing O was because the debate was over?
Natascha
Oh well, getting booed and getting a standing ovation cancels out.
Right?
Asti
That’s warm and pleasant? Please never invite me over for tea, I don’t think I could stand the warmth and pleasantries.
She was annoying, stressed, loud, pushy, lecturing and even uncivil for some parts of that fiasco.
myiq2xu
Clinton is one of ours
p.lukasiak
She wasn’t awful or cringeworthy – most of the time she was warm and pleasant with her usual command of the issues. But that’s how she has been in the overwhelming majority of debates and it was nothing new.
those of us who pay a lot of attention to politics have heard it all before — but most Americans haven’t seen any of the debates at all.
In other words, the people who will be voting on March 4 were the target audience, and most of them haven’t seen a debate yet.
ThymeZone
Wow, this MSNBC coverage really sucks. Reminds me of a living room full of people who have been drinking JD on the rocks for two hours.
srv
Funny how BO’s SS is standing right behind him and nobody’s behind Hillary.
myiq2xu
The hairy legs gave it away
Conservatively Liberal
How can someone on a gurney help themselves into the Intrepid Center? Minor point, but that was about as disjointed as you can get. She essentially said that she ‘stood there, watching people missing limbs trying to enter the center on their own. Some were in wheelchairs, some were on gurneys…’
Leave it to someone in the USA to come up with a self-propelled gurney!
Obama made a nice point noting the editorial endorsements in Texas, that was a good, clean shot. At times, Hillary staring at him with that odd smile on her face just looked creepy. It was not an ‘I am paying attention’ look.
I think that while Hillary did ok, Obama won this debate. He looked strong and his answers were clear, substantive (for a pre-election debate) and concise. I loved the bit about his comment on Hillary saying ‘Get real’ and that his supporters were not being delusional.
Nope, the MUP is real. I am riding that pony to the finish line and beyond. :)
Asti
I thought it was the high pitched screamfest that kept assaulting my ears.
Andrew
I’m watching the debate via DVR and I’m two hours behind, so this thread is like time travel to the future. I’m looking forward to the cavities and feminists and booking and Obama’s drawers.
ninerdave
For my amusement; Big Tent Dem over at Talk Left:
“I thought Hillary whupped him good. David Gergen thought it was even until Hillary’s last answer, he thinks it was her best moment of the campaign. I don’t see it. Go figure. What did you think?”
Gee, I’m surprised.
p.lukasiak
as I predicted…. “she had to hit it out of the park”….”desperate”….momentum, momentum…hectoring, we’ve heard all this before…
Len
It is obvious which of the two is more accustomed to public speaking and being in the public eye.
That bit towards the end about all the troubles she has endured in her life, accompanied by that big grin (I’m surprised she didn’t wink, too) kind of turned me off. Yes, we all know your hubbie screwed around. Get over it. Cindy McCain is.
The health care issue was beaten into the ground.
Other than that, it was an enjoyable debate. I will also definitely be voting for a Democrat in November. (I voted for a bunch of them today… early voting in Texas.)
ThymeZone
Um, yes Paul, you’ve heard it before because it’s true.
Asti
Don’t forget the lecture Hillary gave him, one on one.
ThymeZone
She loses the healthcare debate. Sorry, she and her alter-ego president husband guy had eight years to help with that, 15 years later we have nothing.
She is totally not convincing on that issue any more.
Asti
Thank you TZ, I was just about to say the same thing.
Davebo
She did.
And she didn’t.
Sorry bout that.
Life goes on.
ThymeZone
You have permission to use my lines, but that won’t stop Hillary from claiming that you can’t make up your own words.
What’s mine is yours.
srv
Man, I miss Iron Works…
Conservatively Liberal
Yes, this massdebating can be exhausting. Habit forming too.
Asti
Well, I certainly don’t want to gain a reputation for plagiarizing. I guess I’ll have to let you keep yours, but thank you for the offer ;)
ThymeZone
Well, it can make you go blind. Don’t overdo it.
p.lukasiak
Um, yes Paul, you’ve heard it before because it’s true.
the point is that this isn’t about what those of us who do stuff like read political blogs and comment on them “have heard before”, and it isn’t about what professional gasbags “have heard before”, most people haven’t watched any debates — and that includes the people in Texas and Ohio who are now making up their minds.
(the highest rated debate — the one before supertuesday, was seen by 8.3 million — that includes repeats of the debate).
ThymeZone
Well, okay, Paul, but at the end of the day … did she do anything to really help her situation right now?
I saw only two things, the “honored to be here with Barack” thing, and the final remarks about what the election is about.
Also did I miss it or did they not mention, at all, the McCain lobbyist thing?
myiq2xu
Can I do it until I need glasses?
Asti
Yeah, well when you’ve got a gazillion debates and a few million watching each one, there actually ARE people watching, I’m sure enough people are watching at the right time.
The people who aren’t watching are the feminists, who’ve made up their mind, the lower-class blacks who also have pretty much made up their mind (I’m not trying to make this about race or gender, but guess what? The Dem candidate IS going to be a minority of some sort). I think you’re going to see a lot MORE participation in November, you just aren’t seeing them watch politics, which quite a lot of people have always thougth was dry.
borehole
It can give you hairy palms, too.
Especially if you’re eating a caramello in front of the TV and the cat will NOT stay off your lap.
No, I’m not stretching the concept, this just happened. Because sitting at home watching a debate wasn’t sad enough by itself.
ThymeZone
Good answer. I’d shake your hand, but …. well, you know.
ladonne
Beg pardon?
ThymeZone
I agree. Meanwhile this is a different year, and people who dont normally get into politics are hitting the donate button and giving $25 to a candidate …. It’s a phenomenon they are going to be talking about for a long time
Michael In New Orleans
You progressives are killing me with your anti-feminist jokes. “Hairy legs gave it away”, “High pitched screamfest”, “Pushy broad”. Beautiful stuff.
More please.
ladonne
It seems you have already answered:
So, it’s only identity politics in Texas, Ohio, and that other place. But not where you live?
The Grand Panjandrum
Paul,
Obama’s campaign current fundraising goal is to get to 1 million unique individual donors. They were at roughly 934,000 this morning. With 90% of all donations coming through the website, a highly organized and motivated ground game in Texas and Ohio this nomination process is a race in name only.
He has out thought her and successfully anticipated her every move—when she throws a punch he isn’t there. There’s nothing Clinton can do. It is too late for her to do anything that will save her campaign. Out-organized and out-thought, the Clinton campaign awaits almost certain defeat.
Obama no longer attacks Clinton with more than a compendious response to specific criticism aired during the current news cycle. He has already moved past her to face the Main Enemy: the Republicans.
Her final words with respect to a unified party at the end of this night were a tacit admission that the conclusion of her quest for the Presidency approaches.
Game over.
Andrew
I just actually smiled at a joke made by a politician — Obama complimenting his own speeches. Wow.
Also, Hillary’s smile is sort of freaking me out.
I know, I know, I’m a huge misogynist.
Asti
Gergen realizes Hillary doesn’t connect with a lot of non-feminist-crazy women LMAO (she doesn’t connect with me at all).
I’m female, she will not be getting my vote.
p.lukasiak
Well, okay, Paul, but at the end of the day … did she do anything to really help her situation right now?
first off, nothing about McCain’s lobbyist thing — even though the questioners made a major point of bringing up McCain’s claim that he’s never had an earmark.
As to helping her situation… yes. First off, Obama was weak in the opening segment. I personally think she got much the better of the health care debate. And while I thought the final statement was a tad over-the-top, apparently it went through the roof on the “meters”.
But I also think she hurt herself with the “Xerox” line (Conan O’Brien could pull it off, but not her) and her failure to respond directly on Iraq was a problem as well.
The other thing I think she did well was basically telling the questioners that she wasn’t going to let them set the agenda…
p.lukasiak
oh crap.. forgot to close a tag! :(
srv
Progressives? Well, from where they’re from, they’re on the left side of the tracks.
ThymeZone
956,046 obama donations as of twenty minutes ago.
Political fundraising has never seen anything like this.
Like it or not, Juicers, this contest is over, and Obama is your next president.
You heard it here first.
Anne Laurie
Plagarizing Woody Allen now!
Asti
ladonne I never said that. I personally believe this election is going to be more identity driven than any race we’ve ever had. There have always been passive non-enthusiasts regarding political affairs. The fact is the minorities have a serious dog in this fight now and they are happy with their choice and don’t have to think about that decision so much this time.
crw
Fresh round of polling in Texas. Obama is rocketing upward in the polls. I will be astounded if Hillary can pull off the kind of victory she needs here.
On healthcare, I think Hillary wins hands down among Democratic partisans, but Obama’s plan is less scary to that critical independent/suburban moderate block. And Obama’s doing a lot better hammering her on the ’93 failure than he was previously.
TenguPhule
I’m sure Obama can find a nice position for Hillary in the ‘Round up the Republicans into Mandatory Work Camps’ Office.
Krista
I’m female, and I’m definitely a feminist. And no, I can’t vote in the U.S., but my good karma is definitely being thrown Obama’s way right now. For starters, I resent being told that not supporting Clinton is a betrayal to my gender. Isn’t the whole point of feminism to be judged on who we are as people, not our gender? We can’t have it both ways. As well, I just think that Obama has run a better campaign, and is your country’s best hope of moving beyond the political ugliness of the last two administrations. Mind you, if Clinton does happen to win the nomination, then I’ll vocally support her. But would I prefer Obama? You betcha.
Oh, and Michael in New Orleans? Yeah, some of the guys here can be pretty artless. However, I don’t know if you’ve been lurking here for awhile, or if you’re new, but I can assure you of this: there aren’t a whole lot of sacred cows over here, and most everybody gets poked fun at, at some point. For the most part, it’s pretty good-natured. If I genuinely thought that this place was misogynistic, I wouldn’t be here.
libarbarian
Hear! Hear!
I have been pleasantly surprised and somewhat amazed by how tight his campaign has been. There was a little bit, before S.C., when I thought he might lose his stride but he regained his step and hasn’t stumbled since :). Where are the leaks? Where are the dropped balls? Where are the firings and resignations? The guy picked his staff well.
Inexperienced? Maybe, but that doesn’t mean untalented.
Andrew
Can’t we all just get alone? And make fun of how McCain is attracted to some crazy weird looking ladies?
Lilysmom
Oh, bloody buggery Hell! Kiss my ass each and every last one of you, if you wouldn’t vote for either Hillary or Barack over ANY Republican candidate in the 2008 election.
In my heart of hearts I believe in divided government and the balance of power, because I think that ANY party that controls all branches for an extended period of time becomes stupid, venal and larcenous, but Repubs of the last 15 years have taken that concept to a whole new level of corruption; untrammeled theft and immorality hiding behind a flag, a Bible or both, with no oversight. They don’t care about whom they hurt or steal from in the process as long as they retain power and keep their tax cuts.
They suck at government because they had rather be ideologically “pure”, and are on record to their base saying ‘Not if we can stop it!”, than compromise and actually get something done that might benefit the greater number of Americans. Oh and by the way, maybe benefit this country, too.
They fuck average working people coming and going, while scaring them with stupid shit about gay people, brown people, non-Christian people, Code Orange, Code Red, burning the flag, fat ankles and castrated males. Vote for us, or you and your children are dead.
Snippy comments about clothing or plagiarism play into that.
I am so proud of both of them…period.
ThymeZone
Three years here, and I never figured out the real reason why John puts up this blog before.
Doh!
And, there will be plenty of time for making fun of McCain. He is going to be crushed like a beer can in this election cycle.
Andrew
My subconscious is more smarterer than I am.
By body is now going to rebel against my innermost thoughts and go dance with a bunch of coeds.
libarbarian
My prediction is that we will find that Obama is less “nice” but more talented than his current reputation would seem to hold.
Of course, in 200 I was predicting that Bush would end up being more competent than his detractors allowed and he turned out to be even less, so what do I know?
Asti
Absolutely Krista. And I’m an American female who will be voting for Obama! ;)
The Grand Panjandrum
James Buchanan was probably the most experienced President in our history. Was a one termer elected in 1856. In 1860 we elected one of our most inexperienced Presidents. He did just fine.
Unless we’ve hit the jackpot I doubt Obama is another Lincoln, but I am absolutely convinced he isn’t the Democratic version of GWB.
Asti
How about a cheap RC Cola can instead? ;)
crw
After Obama hit it out of the park on plagiarism-gate and basically called bullshit on the all-hat-no-cattle meme, I’m feeling more confident he’ll be able to take on the RWNM.
It’s not over yet, and I keep remembering how good Kerry looked (e.g. trouncing Bush in all the debates), but…damn, it’s impossible not to look at how Obama’s performing and think he’ll make it.
ladonne
In Texas, at least for us old folks, we put up a serious fight in 1988. Look it up on wiki if you ar not familiar with it.
Women are not minorities. Women can be part of minorities. I have heard any number of women state their support for Obama and minorities voice their support for Clinton. If you are a later comer to the Democratic party, I understand your misunderstanding of how this system works. If you are not from one of the three states you are making generalizations about, then oh well, keep spouting, whatever your gender.
Michael In New Orleans
Thanks for clueing me in Krista. So, is racist stuff okay or hispanic stuff, oriental stuff, autistic children, or is it just feminist stuff? I really want to fit in, so please let me know.
Asti
Obama knows he’s not supposed to go windsurfing for a while.
Asti
I didn’t say women were a minority demographic. I’m a woman, I’m voting for Obama. The feminists are the only ones who are seriously considering pulling the lever for Clinton only on account of her gender. Feminists ARE a minority demographic.
beep52
Did Clinton’s closing remark strike anyone else as inspired by the Cheney fear-factor handbook?
“Whatever happens, we’re going to be fine. You know, we have strong support from our families and our friends. I just hope that we’ll be able to say the same thing about the American people, and that’s what this election should be about.”
Was she not saying, ‘I’ll be fine if I’m not elected, but I’m not sure about you?’
ThymeZone
Obama just needs to keep on course for another ten days and this thing is all wrapped up.
ladonne
you mean like rugs or something?
Digital Amish
I just caught the last half of the debate. From what I saw it was pretty much a wash. Hillary is the more polished debater, Barack is the more empathic candidate. Policy-wise they are pretty much a matched pair. I thought she closed better than Barack.
I really don’t get the ‘Hillary is a bitch’ routine tho. Shit, it’s a political campaign for the most important job in the world between two ambitious people. She is seeing it possibly slipping away. I’d expect just about anybody in a similar situation pull out a knife now and then. Particularly if their political career has been tempered in the manner that Hillary’s has in the last 15 years.
Asti
Isn’t there a war on rugs?
ladonne
You must have be one of those vote for Bush twice regret types.
ThymeZone
Yes, it’s called Ends Justify Means, and it’s why Obama will have a million donations on his books by this time next week. People are sick to death of EJM politics.
ladonne
must be
crap
The Other Steve
Good debate. Hillary didn’t get what she wanted. While she ended on a high note, that exchange about the plagarism charge made her appear childish.
I think we have one more debate next week in Ohio on NBC. I wonder if it’s just going to be on MSNBC, or the main network.
I do have to say, that I think it’s been very good for this campaign to last as long as it has. It’s really engaged a lot of America, and made them pay attention. These last several debates where it’s just the two of then have really stood out and allowed the Democrats to get their point across in a way I haven’t seen in my generation.
ladonne
Seriously? You don’t get it? You are not treading among dems. You are in the heart of Bush regret, withdrawal.
Of course they get the “Hilary is a bitch” routine. But for Obama, they would be singing another tune.
They always have.
ThymeZone
TOS, good point. I think that the exposure that the Dems are getting is good for our side. We look so much better than those feckless Republicans.
Asti
You would be wrong. I didn’t vote for Bush 41 or Bush 43. I sat out in 88, I voted for Clinton in 92, I voted for Gore in 2000 and i voted for Kerry in 2004. I came from a heavily Republican family and never agreed with their politics, and I couldn’t stand the Bush family all the way back in the early 90’s.
My only stupid Republican vote was for Reagan in 84 because
TenguPhule
Personally I don’t much care about who’s the Democratic President.
My only requirement is that they win the damn Presidency and staff the SC with so many liberal judges that Republicans can’t even sneeze for fear of being fined into poverty.
Asti
You would be wrong. I didn’t vote for Bush 41 or Bush 43. I sat out in 88, I voted for Clinton in 92, I voted for Gore in 2000 and i voted for Kerry in 2004. I came from a heavily Republican family and never agreed with their politics, and I couldn’t stand the Bush family all the way back in the early 90’s.
My only stupid Republican vote was for Reagan in 84 because I allowed my father to talk me into it. I regretted it and will never vote for a Republican president ever again. I often don’t even vote for them for local races either, although I’ve been known to pick one or two.
Asti
Sorry for the double post, my computer has a mind of it’s own sometimes.
grumpy realist
Actually, Clinton has managed to piss off a lot of the feminists as well. Better I should say, quite a few Hillary-supporting self-proclaimed feminists have pissed off a lot of other feminists by their arguing that women MUST support Clinton, otherwise they are Bad Feminists, and that voting for Obama is just Sucking Up To The Patriarchy.
Pan American
Amanda Marcotte @ Pandagon is in Austin but she’s a MUP’er.
ladonne
That’s all I needed to know.
Thanks
Asti
Well, I have never considered myself a feminist, but, I would really welcome a bunch of them getting pissed and pulling the lever for Obama. The last thing I want is some screaming power-hungry banshee in the white house. Barack is calm, he is poised, he is ready. I have to also say I’m concerned about her corporate closeness. I want the people to have a president this time so much more than just the acronyms.
Digital Amish
Just so I’m not misunderstood, I agree. That’s where Barack cleans her clock. Call it rope-a-dope or passive aggressive. He has read the electorate better. I think Hillary appeals more to people (and there are a lot of them) like my wife who after eight years have built up a lot of anger and want some payback. Hillary maybe has just enough meanness and personal investment to take a little payback.
I, on the otherhand think that we are in so deep in the shit that we don’t have time for payback. We need to shove the 29%ers off the playing field and get on with business. I think Obama is better suited for that.
ladonne
No wonder you sat it out in 1988.
Jess
How about sitting at home alone watching it with a cold?
*sniff*
Asti
I have to say I agree with this statement totally.
Asti
Not really, it had nothing to do with a possible female VP, it had to do with the fact that I wasn’t ready to really pay attention to politics at that point. I was still very young and developing into who I chose to be and at that point I was still very impressionable regarding feminism. I didn’t learn to really dislike feminists until I realized how loud they were, I think I was probably in my thirties when that happened. I was voting for Clinton at that point. I had already cemented by democratic leaning, I just hadn’t cemented that it was okay to be female and not be a feminist for quite a while. Blame that on my parents, they wouldln’t allow me to have an opinion on anything until I turned 21 and even after that it was highly discouraged. I was a late in awakening to my own choices.
ladonne
You didn’t see that coming with Reagan? And now you think you have something significant to say.
Late, late, late.
Identity politics all the way to the White House.
Find a new argument. plese.
Martin
One of the best West Wing lines:
The hillaryis44 set want nothing more than to beat him – Bush, Obama, doesn’t much seem to matter. Obama wants to win which is why I think he doesn’t go out of his way to villify Bush.
Asti
No, I didn’t see it coming with Reagan. I was a stupid 18 year old kid who was being used by my father because I was old enough to go stand in a booth. I didn’t KNOW anything about politics, what part of that are you not understanding?
ladonne
Are you that out of it? Please tell me who was the posssible female vp in 1988.
TenguPhule
Shoving them into oblivion goes hand in hand with payback.
Fuck bipartisan, we have gone down that road and it is code speak for ‘Fuck Democrats, Republicans want their way’.
The Republicans need to be destroyed in every sense of the word.
There need to be arrests, trials and firing squads. And then the bodies need to be defiled and denied burial on US soil. The rot is deep and needs to be cleaned out.
Asti
Well, considering I was born in the 60’s you’ll have to do better than that. Do you think every 18 year old kid understands politics?
ladonne
Weak, weak weak.
ThymeZone
Okay I am headed to the hammock but I found this via antiwar.com and huffpost, from our friend, John McCain, which I thought would help us find unity and peace as we get ready to retire for the evening:
Be proud in your Democratness tonight, my friends. For this is the year that we extinguish that smoldering dungpile called the GOP.
Conservatively Liberal
Sure, make fun of the KKK, and the rich who hire illegal hispanics yet decry illegal immigration. You can also despise autism as being caused by mercury in children’s vaccines and feminists who have hairy legs.
Believe me, everyone fits in here so there should be no worry about that. We will have you cataloged and pigeonholed after you post enough here, and you will have your niche.
Asti
Geraldine Ferrara in 84 actually, I had forgotten which Reagan presidency I voted for. I sat two out. Born in 62, turned 18 in 80, sat out 84 and 88 and voted Dem in 92, 96 2000 and 2004.
Apologies that I have trouble remembering stuff that happened 24-28 years ago.
You know, my brain likes to deal with current events, not having to remember crap from that long ago. It was the same damned president (Reagan) who I pulled the lever for at my father’s insistence when I was 18. So what? Crucify a person for having a not-so-good memory, why don’t you?
mrmobi
Couldn’t agree more, John, and thank your for saying it. I said in here a few weeks ago that Hillary Clinton, for all her faults, is a force for good in the Democratic Party and in our country. I’m also amazed that you are the same person I read in here four years ago.
Like most here, I thought Obama hit it out of the park tonight. Not by being better than he usually is, but by being able to listen to the better angels of his nature and not lower the dialog with tawdry attacks. I continue to be impressed by my Senator, and will send him a check tomorrow.
I also want to congratulate Hillary for resisting what was obviously the advice of her campaign to go after Barack more strongly (for the most part). I think what we saw tonight was Hillary coming to the realization that there is a larger goal beyond her own ambitions. Or maybe I just drank too much French wine this evening.
Anyway, I was cheering both candidates tonight, just like the audience in Texas.
It’s a good time to be a Democrat.
Asti
Thank God!
Asti
Fuck off!
ladonne
I am a sincere voice here. I am not anything more or less than who I am.
I enjoy the back and forth and the humor.
I don’t understand the bias, though. It seems to mostly be bias against Hillary. You all may feel that it’s your right to call her names. You all may feel that you have made some difference with your readers. Cheapening what Obama represents by making fun is ok with the majority of commenters here. That’s ok.
For some of us, calling your support for Obama MUP is silly. And you know it. Seriously. Are you children?
Who cares who is male or female on any particular thread? Hillary gets called a bitch regardless.
You all seem to be more ahout yourselves than anything.
ThymeZone
My final goodnight gift to you all, this reminder of why we fight the good fight here.
Asti
Out of it? In 1984 I was yes. What relevance does it have to now except in your own mind? Do you ever make mistakes ladonna? Are you human?
Asti
I’ll tell you what, when she spends less time with corporate bigwigs and voting for war in Iraq, I might consider it. Not until.
ThymeZone
Well, some of us just wanted to ride the pony in the parade.
True story.
It’s a rowdy joint, we have a lot of fun. Don’t take it all too seriously.
Asti
Okay, I can’t sleep after that, my dreams will be scary now. Thanks TZ (NOT!)
Asti
Really? Well, a sincere voice would understand that many 18 year old kids haven’t a clue about the political landscape. Why don’t you take the mask off?
ladonne
Mealy-mouthed is what I would call it. I was born the same year as you and found my way to the 1988 election, as well as 2 before that. If you have ‘father’ problems, well I hope you’ve addressed them.
Asti
Boohoo! Right, perfect ladonne never makes a mistake. Does everything oh so perfectly, has no understanding of what it means to be human. I’m done playing with you. You bore me.
Asti
No need to address them, he’s dead now. If you’re only here to goad me, you’ll have to yell a little louder, I am ignoring you now.
Conservatively Liberal
ladonne, the holier than thou stuff wears thin here very quickly. I too have voted since I was 18, but I am not about to fault someone who got in to politics at a later age. Big deal. At least they assessed it for themselves and plunged back in, and that is all that counts.
The MUP does not like people who are on high horses. He is a down to earth pony, kind of like his supporters.
ladonne
That sums it up quite nicely.
ladonne
Mine is as well. He told me in that 1988 election year that he couldn’t vote for the short guy. I loved him still.
srv
JOHN! TIM! Anybody! You aren’t going to believe this one:
OMG
Hillary plaigerising Edwards!!!!
The Other Steve
If you guys still haven’t figured out why the Democrats lost in 1980 and 1984, then you don’t deserve the Magical Unity Pony.
Tom in Texas
ladonna:
Hillary was a Goldwaterite in High School. How fucking stupid an 18 year old was she?
ninerdave
AND SRV OOO OOO LOOK ZOMG ZOMG ZOMG
HILLARY PLAGIARIZING BILL:
The Other Steve
Does this sound familiar?
It came from Bill Clinton in 1992.
Bleah
Anne Laurie
[Suspicious tone]And now you are going to mock our first democratically elected GAY president?!!11??
(/snark)
ladonne
Tom, my name is LaDonne. Since you are in Texas, you might know that. Or not.
People my age, who were for a more progressive national policy know what happened in Texas wrt the Democratic primaries.
Asti is claiming that her daddy made her do that. My dad didn’t vote for me. I voted for myself. And yes, as early as 1988. (1980 actually.) And if you have a problem with I told you so, just look at Texas. I told you so. . . circa pre 2000.
Been here, fighting the good fight, since 1980.
Tom in Texas
Keep tellin’ em ladonne. Or is it LaDonne?
It’s nice to see that you have voted for yourself since 1980 (so do most rich Republicans, btw). Others vote for family, or because of a certain issue.
Look, it’s obvious that you were an enlightened 18 year old who knew Reagan was a sham from the start. Congratulations. Some 18 year olds, however, make mistakes; for example they may listen and trust their father too much. When they learn their lesson and don’t repeat their error, what is the point in haranguing them? Did Asti kick your cat on the way to the booth in 1980?
Zuzu
I sat out the first election in which I was eligible to vote: 1972.
Think how I feel now.
Zuzu
Oh pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease let there not be any bimbo eruptions.
Brachiator
The “most economists” thing is meaningless. Massachusetts has a mandatory health care program. If you do not have coverage and cannot give a “reasonable” explanation for not having coverage, you lose exemptions on your MA tax return, sometimes resulting in a balance due. Still, some people elect not to be covered.
And think about this for a second. In MA, you are penalized on your tax return if you do not choose to have coverage, no matter your reasons or economic circumstance (apart from a religious exception). This is the essence of coercive an intrusive government, acting with all the “best intentions” for the supposed common good. The economists who are hot for this kind of thing fail to consider the political or the ethical aspects of this. I give credit to Obama for being more sensitive about this, and am sad to see that Senator Clinton apparently did not learn from the debacle of her health care plan during her husband’s administration.
And yes, it was her husband’s administration. Not hers.
You nailed it. Dubya and the neo-con Goon Squad were so intent on undoing everything that all previous Democratic administrations came up with that they discounted clear warnings about Osama bin Laden.
There is simply no rational reason for Democrats to make the same mistake.
Which is why, for me, she should have a long and distinguished career as a senator.
As an aside, I was not able to catch this debate, although I tried to watch/listen to many of the earlier debates. Besides, if the questions were not about recent changes in the world, from Pakistan to Kosovo to Kenya to Cuba to shooting down satellites and the militarization of the zone between Earth orbit and the moon, as opposed to crap like who is most experienced or whose speeches are the most fresh and original, well, I’m not really that interested.
Beej
Asti,
I’m not criticizing, but attempting to educate a bit. I come across this all the time with my students (college level). If you want to talk about the banshees and the shrill, please don’t label them all as merely “feminists”. They are radical feminists.
Krista’s definition of a feminist is the right one. The whole feminist movement-and I (and maybe Krista?) was there back in the ’60’s after The Feminine Mystique got it all started-was aimed at giving women the option to do what they wanted with their lives rather than being forced into society’s approved roles. We were not bra burners with hairy legs and shrill voices. That came much later.
Just one question-What’s your career? Do you work outside the home? If so, what do you do?
When I was a senior in high school (1964) I had my mandatory meeting with the high school guidance counselor to decide what I was going to do in the future. The counselor asked, and I quote, “Do you want to be a nurse, a teacher, a secretary, or are you getting married?” Those were the 4 options open to a female high school graduate in 1964. I am a lawyer who teaches law to paralegals. In addition to my law degree, I have a Master’s degree in Education and spent 5 years as a university administrator. I don’t have any illusions about whether I could have done any of those things without the feminist movement. So please, don’t label the lunatic fringe of the feminist movement as just feminists. I’m a feminist, Krista’s a feminist, and I’m betting you’re one too. But we’re sure as hell not part of the lunatic fringe.
myiq2xu
They both said “Thank you and goodnight” too!
Ninerdave
Which goes to show what a silly non-issue this is (was), and the fact that Hillary is making hay out of it shows how desperate she is.
Conservatively Liberal
There is the left, and there is the radical left. Same with the right, same with second amendment supporters, and the same goes for the feminists. I have no problem with feminists, I think they have many valid points to make and have worked for positive changes for women. Good for them. The radical feminists, like the radicals of any other belief, try to give feminism a bad name. I say try because those who are politically aware know of the differences between the two groups.
I have no problem with people that believe in what they do, but there are the select few who like to take something and run with it until it is ragged. What is worse is that one radical group holds up another radical group as the poster child of everyone (radicals and non-radicals) in that group.
All it does is confuse things, which is the desired goal. We in the middle get the honor of being in the middle of this tug-of-war. /barf
Sorting the various groups and the various shades of these groups is very instructive. You learn that there is a lot more to what is going on out there than what you get fed in the ‘news’. But you have to go learn it for yourself, it sure is not going to come to you.
A good friend of mine voted the Republican ‘family way’ until he was almost 30. He believed that his Dad knew everything about everything. Poor guy, I corrupted his soul and taught him to find out stuff for himself. He does not get along with his family very well now that he is an independent, but he says that he would not have it any other way. His older brother still votes as Dad says, and he is almost 50 now. My friend says that Thanksgiving visits are pretty lively though. Dad won’t give up, and son is trying to convert Dad. I reminded him of the line ‘You can’t teach an old dog…’, but he says that while the discussions get hot, he really enjoys having them with his Dad. Before he just regurgitated what Dad wanted to hear. Now he enjoys talking ‘shop’ with his Dad.
Everyone is different ladonne. While it is great that you had a young political awakening, some people have other factors that weigh them down. I understand pride, but your tone is very haughty.
SGEW
Everyone deserves the Magical Unity Pony. Everyone.
Phoebe
I think LaDonne’s pummelling on Asti is creepy as hell. On the grounds of “lateness” – this is the kind of elitist crap that makes people hate Democrats. And I can’t shake the feeling that she’s zeroing in on Asti – when John Cole voted for Bush – because Asti’s a woman, and LaDonne wants to out-cool her or something. Asti, shake it off, you did not deserve that at all. At all.
Conservatively Liberal
Rasmussen Reports:
(Favorability/Unfavorability:)
Obama (56/42)
McCain (50/45)
Clinton (48/50)
General:
Obama vs McCain (46/42)
Clinton vs McCain (43/47)
Rasmussen Markets Expected Primary Winner:
Obama (80.6)
Clinton (17.3)
I hear that the MUP is very happy right now. ;)
Pb
Here’s video of the two. Heh, indeed, zomg, etc.
Conservatively Liberal
I just went and tossed another $25.00 into the piggy for the pony. Damn, every time I go to his site I can’t help but think that his people have done a great job. That is one thing that really impresses me about Barack, he has surrounded himself with the right kind of people and they have planned this out to the end. A person like a president is only as good as the people they surround themselves with, and I have a feeling that he is heading into this with a plan ready for day one in office. I expect some hiccups, but I bet he will just bowl through everything like a natural.
It is strange seeing a well spoken, confident politician in action after enduring the inarticulate, incompetent ‘moran’ of a president for the last 7 years. Like a breath of fresh air after breathing recycled farts for 7 years.
scrutinizer
Which, you know, just goes to show that the plagiarism thing is, well, crap.
I’m no Hillary supporter, having a firm seat on the MUP myself, but Hill and Bill have been pretty much a political team since they got into politics. Where does one start and the other stop? I dunno—and I doubt that either of them could tell you at this point which of them came up with the words, no matter who said it first.
Krista
In the 60’s, I was naught but a twinkle in my father’s eye. I didn’t come around until that wild ‘n’ crazy year of 1975.
And I shaved my legs this very morning. But you’re damn straight that I’m a feminist. And part of me can’t help but be a tad resentful towards the very small but strident number of feminists who have turned themselves into a caricature. We see a lot of young women now who are very much for equal rights, reproductive rights, and for the right of women to live lives with the same freedoms and choices as men. But they don’t want to call themselves feminists, because they don’t want people to immediately assume that they are angry, hairy-legged misandrists. It’s sad as hell. That’s why I’m thrilled with celebs like Salma Hayek and Ashley Judd who proudly define themselves as feminists, but do not feel that being a feminine feminist is a contradiction in terms. Frankly, I think that with regards to the more militant feminists, it would behoove them to recognize that a woman can be a feminist and wear makeup, wear dresses, get married, like the colour pink, and basically be girly as all-get-out, and yes….vote for a man, and it’s NOT a betrayal of her gender.
In other words, if feminism is truly about choice, then the old-school feminists are going to have to embrace and accept other women’s choices, even if they’re not the choices they themselves would have made.
Pb
scrutinizer,
No doubt.
And perhaps neither of them did. I wonder who came up with the Xerox line. However, this is the ridiculous standard that Hillary is (still) putting out there, so it’ll be interesting to see how much of this gets out into the media, and how they treat it, given the already ridiculous amount of attention they’ve paid to it.
“I’m in it to win it” — Carol Moseley Braun, 1993
“ready on day one” — George H. W. Bush’s winning slogan from 1988
Maybe we should see which successful political soundbites actually are original, period.
Wilfred
There’s always a Rashomon element to a debate but it was pretty clear that Clinton backed off after Obama shot down the plagiarism wanking. She was drilled before the debate to vibe the audience reaction and pull back if it was against her. It was. She woke to artillery fire
Remember Obama talking about judgment? Running that the day after the debate is telling donors to hang on to their money and save it for Obama in the general.
Bob In Pacifica
As the sun rises in the west, can I say that 20 debates is too much? Especially when they don’t really debate.
And here’s another one. If either Clinton or Obama are in the White House next year, on “day one” neither is going to declare her or his healthcare plan as law. Each will have to take it to Congress and argue it, have people on the floor move it. The bigger the Dem majority the more chance there is to pass something meaningful. So a major part of any healthcare passage is to get more Dems in Congress.
Now that we’ve got all the citations about the sources of H. Clinton’s final word can we now all agree that the plagiarism argument was stupid and desperate?
Are there any Clinton supporters who still think she can win this without a brokered convention? If so, how?
Pelikan
My goodness, if Blogs gave out a Sanctimonius Twit of the Week award, ladonne would be winning by a landslide.
Conservatively Liberal
You know how much more effective ‘copy & paste’ would have been than her use of ‘Xerox’? Yeah, she is that far behind the times. Xerox is so pre-pc days, and I am sure that the young geeks were scratching their heads at that one.
Hell, I can’t remember when I last even used a Xerox. Maybe around the last time I voted for a Clinton? ;)
Asti
Point taken. The radicals give anyone who has any belief in women’s rights a bad name. I stand corrected.
Am I a feminist? No, not really. I don’t like being labeled to begin with, and I personally don’t believe that men or women should believe in either sex being on top. Do I work? Yes. What do I do? That’s my business. I believe in equality, not one-up(wo)manship and if I were to label myself as anything, it would be “equalizer”.
Asti
Nothing to shake off, LaDonne is not worth my time to worry about. ;) but thanks for your contribution.
Gilmore
On the grounds of “lateness” – this is the kind of elitist crap that makes people hate Democrats.
Sigh…can we still bag on Cole for voting for Bush twice?
ladonne
Typical.
Make sure you don’t fall off the “pony” on your way to the White House.
And how arrogant is it to thank someone for posting a comment on a blog and calling it a contribution? It’s just a comment on a blog. It’s not going to change a damn thing.
Asti
Why don’t you stop trying to pick a fight ladonne and we might actually get along? If this is all you have, I’m not buying it, sorry.