This stinks:
Gary Gygax, co-creator of Dungeons & Dragons and one of the fathers of tabletop role playing games, died on Tuesday at the age of 69. He had suffered from heart problems.
The news was first announced on the message board of Troll Lord Games, the publisher of Gygax’s most recent works. It has since been directly confirmed by the company, which will post an announcement on its web site later today.
Gygax was best known for helping create Dungeons & Dragons and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, and pioneered tabletop role playing games. The first D&D rulebooks were released in 1974 by TSR, Inc, and since then produced three full-fledged sequels, numerous revisions and updates, and dozens upon dozens of additional rulebooks, settings, and campaigns. While Gygax hadn’t had much direct involvement with D&D for many years, he developed and contributed to many role playing games, Troll Lord Games’ Gary Gygax’s Fantasy Worlds.
I am sure I mentioned it before, but I still have all my D&D books from 1979 in a closet at home, including the original player’s handbook, monster manual, and dungeon master’s guide.
(via Ned Raggett)
*** Update ***
I guess this isn’t really in bad taste, considering:
Death attacks Gary Gygax.
Gygax misses his saving throw.
Gygax dies.
Con Mhac
Fuck him.
I’m saving my sympathy for all the helpless goblinoids he slaughtered in his day.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
Me too, John. Without that game, I don’t think I would’ve survived middle school. It was pretty much the only means we geeky kids had of maintaining our sanity, between beating-sessions at the hands of the future high school dropouts.
This is shitty news. I’ll always have fond memories of his games.
Pelikan
Ah Greyhawk, that takes me back.
Before we start making endless “save vs. death” jokes, let’s remember him fondly for helping us waste our (sometimes extended) childhoods.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
Why do you hate elves?
chopper
poor guy must’ve ran out of hit points.
Dork
Sounds like a tropical disease.
They actually had manuals for D&D? Like there were rules and stuff? I thought kids just made shit up as they went along. Honestly.
canuckistani
It was a good way for nerds to socialize with real people – I owe GG for a lot of fun and not a few new friends made through my network of D&D players.
Scrutinizer
PotD!
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
You play with the character stats you have, not the character stats you wish you had.
Halteclere
In the early ’80’s when the “Dungeons and Dragons leads to Devil worshiping” craze was at it’s greatest, my friends and I collected tons of books and magazines from other kids who were forced to get rid of their stuff. Ah, good times.
Do junior high-ers still play AD&D or similar roll-playing games, or is it (as I expect) only video games today?
Paul
Some of us still roleplay (although I’ve moved onto other games–haven’t played D&D in quite a while).
Rest in peace, Gary.
jenniebee
Is it wrong that I think that this would actually be a fitting tribute?
Ok, but how wrong, scale of
one to tend20?chopper
i think i have a +1 sympathy mace in my ‘bag of holding’, hold on a sec…
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
Me, too. I haven’t played it in about 14 years, though. Do they still come out with the books, or is it all online now?
El Cruzado
We are all dorks today.
Wait, we are all dorks pretty much all the time around here.
We’ll have to settle for extra-dorky in honor of the one who started it all.
Walker
I am sure I mentioned it before, but I still have all my D&D books from 1979 in a closet at home, including the original player’s handbook, monster manual, and dungeon master’s guide.
This is my one guilty pleasure that my wife puts up with. I have used e-Bay to purchase every single (well, not the really expensive ones) TSR adventure module every made. I collect them like comic books. For many I have a reading copy and a play copy.
It is great to play these again with the younger generation. That’s one of the perks of being faculty sponsor of a game club at a university: constant new players. Before things got too busy, I used to run “old-school” night once a semester. Nothing like taking a bunch of kids born after 2nd edition through Tomb of Horrors.
gogiggs
Sad news, indeed. He brought a lot of pleasure to a lot of people.
John Cole
I wonder if he dropped any phat loot.
Jon H
“Me, too. I haven’t played it in about 14 years, though. Do they still come out with the books, or is it all online now?”
There are new books, but judging by the art it’s become “Dungeons And Godsmack” now. All the illustrations feature characters with artful sideburns and tattoos and piercings and whatnot.
Walker
4th edition is being printed this June. It is highly anticipated. The rules are going through an major overhaul, and some of the changes are expected to be controversial. But after the cock-up that was 3.5 (which was so bad it splintered the community into a bunch house-rules), anything is welcome.
The most interesting new feature is supposed to be network play. It is still going to be a pen-and-paper game, but Wizards is making rules and software to make it possible to play with people over the Internet. The tools will be more like collaboration/whiteboard tools than an actual computer game. No one knows exactly how this is going to work, but Wizards is hyping it up a lot.
I was at GDC (the Game Developers Conference) two weeks ago. While Wizards wasn’t there, word in the community was that they were on a real hiring push to get developers for this project.
pharniel
and with 4th ed almost out the door ta boot. sadness.
table top is still alive and kicking, though it’s taking queues on mmorpgs for the bits taht they do better an then schooling them on thigns that they’ll never be able to do (aside from the Singularity running a game. but that’ll be gaming after the geek rapture)
he will be missed.
Kallisti
Quick! Someone role up a cleric!
Jon H
Quick, someone look for the phylactery.
Seanly
Sad news. I spent much of the early 80’s playing AD&D.
This is a bit of an understatement from that link:
“If not for his contributions, video games and geek culture would probably look much different than it does today.”
Lots of folks talk about Tolkien being the father of fantasy culture, but I think Gygax & Arneson have influenced much of the culture and all of the mechanics many of us now play on our computer. Most computer RPG games like the AD&D Baldur’s Gate series to Everquest & World of Warcraft use the Dungeons & Dragons system. To my mind, Tolkien is the grandfather, but Gygax & Arneson are the true father.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
I can’t wait to see the new character classes that come out of this!
Jon H
“I can’t wait to see the new character classes that come out of this!”
I think one is a bard subtype called “Emo Weepsinger”, and there’s a spellcasting subtype “Shoegazer”.
Nicole
I can’t remember how to do a differential equation, or most anything else I learned in math, but I still remember 1pp=5gp.
pharniel
also what sucks is that you just know that Adult Swim would have done him up proper and aired the Futurama episode of his tonight with full bumps.
we’ll see if comedy central even notices.
reid
I don’t usually admit it in public, but like John, I too played D&D from around ’78 – ’83. Plus dabbling in some other games like Gamma World. Good times for a 12-year old punk. It started getting a little too… nerdy around 10th grade. In Gygax’s honor, I may go back and look at all my old junk and get verklemt.
L Boom
Some nostalgia for my fellow 30-something geeks: Mazes and Monsters. Cheesy early 80’s D&D hysteria movie with Tom Hanks branching out from Bosom Buddies.
Cassidy
Saving throw vs. nerd nostalgia….
I miss playing D&D. As much as I loved 2nd ED, I really enjoyed 3rd, although I don’t care for the alck of structure in the D20 universe. I kind of miss the ol’ black and white D&D days.
All the new games, including D&D, are suffering from Han Solo syndrome. Everyone wants to be the really cool good guy, who can do bad things if need be. Have you ever tried playing the Star Wars RPG with a bunch of gaming geeks? You can only take so much “individuality”.
Walker
I can’t remember how to do a differential equation, or most anything else I learned in math, but I still remember 1pp=5gp.
It’s all decimalized now so 1pp=10gp and 1=10sp. It is as if some worldwide conspiracy replaced gold with electrum.
L Boom
Doh! Link didn’t work for some reason: Mazes and Monsters.
Let’s see if the preview is lying to me again …
pharniel
Scruffy McSnufflepuss Says:
I’d tell you about them but Paddadium and Kevin Siemba have pre-emptivly sued WotC for ‘stealing’ tatoo magic
(and the art is called ‘dungeon punk’ and has been backed off quite a bit since 3.x came out)
though i think this really tears it, greyhawk really is dead (the WotC run Living Greyhawk dies at the end of 08 to be replaced by living realms)
Cassidy
And calculate THAC0…
L Boom
Argh, not working. Here’s the direct link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazes_and_monsters
Geoduck
“Hi! I’m Gary Gygax! It’s a..” (rolls dice) “..pleasure to meet you!”
pharniel
*Geoduck* is full of win. and awesum. have a +1 drunken robot point.
oh wait, wrong board.
anyway, at least we know his death didn’t go to waste, as Nobilis is finnaly back in print….and I have a feeling I’m like one of 2 people here who recognize it.
anyone got the stats on the MUP yet?
Cassidy
A great read for the D&D fan.
Walker
That is blasphemy. 2nd was in every way inferior to 1st.
I remember when 2nd came out. On a lark, my gaming group took that opportunity to form a party from every character class that was eliminated: an illusionist, a monk, and an assassin (no fighters). We later added a druid because we needed the healing, and druids were altered enough that you could technically call them eliminated. But still no fighers.
That was greatest party I ever played in. That campaign lasted 6 years.
Cassidy
Order of the Stick that is.
Cassidy
Any Calimport in a storm…sure….but I’m a 2nd Edition guy. Although, I must admit that I got really tired of all the rogue Drow…
Cassidy
And no one ever needed a fighter, they were just fun to play.
Decided FenceSitter
*Waves Hand at Pharniel* Nice to know there’s at least one other RPG Netter runing around multiple blogs.
While I haven’t touched D&D since 3.0 first came out, and have played mostly White-Wolf (4 year campaign of Exalted, and still tickin’) it was D&D that got me into gaming, which got me into the gaming crowd in college, which caused me to meet my wife and all the assorted wonderful things since then.
Walker
Amen. But that’s a Forgotten Realms problem. It has nothing to do with editions.
Cassidy
Typically, though, if you were playing 2nd ED, you were playing Forgotten Realms….and every group had that jackass who had to insist he wasn’t Drizzt because he used a longsword..or a shortsword….or a falchion…or
Zifnab
Whatever. 3.x was an absolutely necessary and greatly welcomed update to the 2nd Ed rules – which themselves had more house mods than a luxury trailer park. The only cock-up was that they didn’t get around to making the changes sooner.
Regardless, Gygax will be greatly missed. He’s been an icon, and the butt of good jokes, since I started gaming. I don’t know anyone who actually met him that didn’t have good things to say.
Jimmmmm
Cool people just live longer. Deal with it.
Cassidy
Walker
3.0 was amazing. It revolutionized that game and brought in some many new players. As old-school as I am I will readily say that it was better than 1st edition.
3.5 is the disaster. Useless weapon size rules that made things needless complicated. Stealth and reconnaissance spells nerfed so hard that spell-casting outside of combat was pointless. The Pokepaladin (Magical mount, I summon you). With 3.5, Wizards took the major gaming community they built over more than three years and destroyed it.
Jimmmmm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teE_Gu_SmSQ
I’ve a twelve-sided die.
Pixie
Bleh it looks like Gygax just got pwned! I will mourn the loss of our great Nerdfather.
I never got involved in D & D, but I never would have become the geek I am today without EQ2 and DAoC, neither of which would have come about without D & D.
Roonieroo
I stopped after 3rd edition. We mainly played Fantasy Hero with 3rd edition thrown in for my last group. Sadly it was my last group and I miss playing but adulthood happened. Granted it didn’t actually happen until my very late 30’s but it still happened by the time all the group was done with their graduate degrees and had no choice but to move on.
I still have boxes and boxes and boxes from everything from Chainmail through 3rd with Greyhawk to, yes, Forgotten Realms ad nauseam. I think about Ebaying it all every once in a while but on days like this, I’m a bit glad I still have it all.
Walker
By the way, from all my posts, everyone must think I am an uber-geek with no life. This is my job.
Pixie
What game has a plat (pp) = 10 gp?? wtf? Last time I checked it took 100gp = 1pp. You guys must be going by the 1980’s inflation rate.
DougJ
It was a fun game. I didn’t play that much but I loved the way it made you use your imagination.
srv
Good times. There was always someone asking for it – disco bell-bottom dressers, D&D’ers, KISS fans. So many freaks, so little time.
The Other Steve
I loved reading the D&D books. My brother and I spent hours reading them and drawing up maps and memorizing stats and everything.
Roll playing? Not so much. I hated it. It might be because I had a bunch of asshole friends. But the last time I played this asshat decided to attack our group with a typo. Something out of the Monster manual, like a badger or something that instead of having 5+7 hit dice had been mistyped as 57. We got into a fight, and I haven’t played since.
Walker
This is the primary design flaw with D&D. Its quality depends entirely on your players. This is one of the reasons Wizards is making such a huge push with the new online play option (whatever that will be). “Power of the Community” and all that.
SamFromUtah
Death attacks Gygax.
Gygax misses saving throw.
Gary Gygax dies.
There – fixed it to be a haiku. RIP, Gary.
Ned Raggett
Some beautiful responses here. I mentioned it over on my blog post (thanks for the h/t John!) but I gotta link this version of the Dead Alewives “Dungeons and Dragons” here, just because:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHdXG2gV01k
jrg
Very sad. Gygax was a truly unique creature.
Zifnab
That game makes so little sense it pains me. You play an ABSTRACT CONCEPT! I ran through three games and still didn’t know if I was doing it right before I finally gave up and went back to White Wolf.
MUP, Level 16 Presidential Candidate (XP 50,000)
Large magical beast
Initiative +10; darkvision 60ft
HP 400; AC 31; Fortitude 26, Reflex 20, Will 21
Speed 6, swim 6
Hoof (standard)
Reach 10ft; +25 melee; 4d6+6 damage, or 6d6+6 damage against a Republican
Winny (spell-like ability 1/day)
Will Save vs DC 24
Fail: Affected voters within 100 meters have their registration shifted one category towards Barack Obama (Republican->Independent, Independent->Democrat, Democrat->Yellow Dog Democrat) and immediately vote in the primary election.
Succeed: -2 morale penalty on voter’s attacks, skill checks, and saves for 24 hours or until they view a wingnut news organization.
Carry (Supernatural, Persistent)
Can carry up to ten times its own weight or a number of voters equal to the size of the two largest political parties within range.
Deflect Criticism (Supernatural, 3/day)
May make an attack roll and treat the result as its AC versus character attacks and unfounded accusations.
Inexperienced 5
Takes 5 additional points of damage from criticisms of his policy experience or voting history.
Str 12 (+1) Dex 16 (+3) Wis 10 (+0)
Con 21 (+5) Int 16 (+3) Cha 24 (+7)
Tom Hilton
Still, as far as I know, the only episode of any animated series ever to feature the voice of a sitting Vice President.
Walker
Brilliant.
lutton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyxnEKTjhj0
Birdzilla
He was et by a dragon
Cassidy
Transcend (Supernatural/ Persistent)
May completely nullify any attacks based on origin, skin color, genetics, hair, food eaten for breakfast, religion, etc.
Jake
The makers of video games owe GG a huge debt of gratitude. And let us not forget that thanks to his efforts we got a gawdawful O noes games makes teh childrens crazies movie that eventually received Full Frontal Snark from the boys and bots of MST-3000.
[Spills coffee]
Jake
The makers of video games owe GG a huge debt of gratitude. And let us not forget that thanks to his efforts we got a gawdawful O noes games makes teh childrens crazies movie that eventually received Full Frontal Snark from the boys and bots of MST-3000.
[Spills coffee]
pharniel
*Zifnab* Says:
It was a more sophisticated version of In Nomine, only instead of playing the mooks to an abstract concept, you actually get to be the big(er) cheese.
fighting for reality and the most stuff.
i mean, if you can deal with Mage: The Ascension you should totally be able to handle Nobilis. ANd if you’ve playing a sidreal exalted game then you are already in the Cult of Bergstrome (who is no longer bergstrom as we leared today).
also, the person who teaches computer games design, I have serious envy for your ability to play games as research, and serious sympathy with the grading of stuffs and dealing with the odd crazy student.
Dennis - SGMM
I was a bit too old for it when the D&D phenom hit. Nonetheless, I will wear a black pocket protector to honor the passing of the man who helped so many of my future employees through adolescence.
Dennis - SGMM
I was a bit too old for it when the D&D phenom hit. Nonetheless, I will wear a black pocket protector to honor the passing of the man who helped so many of my future employees through adolescence.
pharniel
*Zifnab* Says:
It was a more sophisticated version of In Nomine, only instead of playing the mooks to an abstract concept, you actually get to be the big(er) cheese.
fighting for reality and the most stuff.
i mean, if you can deal with Mage: The Ascension you should totally be able to handle Nobilis. ANd if you’ve playing a sidreal exalted game then you are already in the Cult of Bergstrome (who is no longer bergstrom as we leared today).
also, the person who teaches computer games design, I have serious envy for your ability to play games as research, and serious sympathy with the grading of stuffs and dealing with the odd crazy student.
Dennis - SGMM
Apologies for the double post.
Jake
[h/t Edward Gorey]:
There once was a blog with a stammer
Atrocious and so was its grammar.
It was not improved,
When its users were moved,
to knock their pcs with a hammer.
Zifnab
I’m a huge fan of Mage, to be honest. Maybe my ST was just a bit wonky. But being a human who controls reality through applications of will and being the concept of drowning or the embodyment of laughter are a bit different in my book. I just couldn’t do that game justice.
I did Exalted once, but that was more hack-n-slash. Sidreal were sidelined to NPCs.
Perry Como
As I peek under the coffee table I see a stack of 6 gaming books. 4 are D&D based. Gygax will be missed.
(I have them for my roguelike, I swear…)
Jon H
+3 on saving throws vs. Night Hag attacks
libarbarian
Since we’re geeking out – anyone else here play Warhammer or Warhammer 40K?
I haven’t played in more than a year but I think I’m going to scope out a nearby league.
Kynn
pharniel wrote:
I think with Zifnab as the second person, I make three people.
I’m even in the book itself, as “Admiral Kynn.”
Jay
What game has a plat (pp) = 10 gp?? wtf? Last time I checked it took 100gp = 1pp. You guys must be going by the 1980’s inflation rate.
D&D 3.0 and 3.5 made each denomination of coin a multiple of 10.
10 copper pieces = 1 silver piece
10 silver pieces = 1 gold piece
10 gold pieces = 1 platinum piece
D&D 4th Edition tweaks it back towards familiar conversions, with a twist:
10 copper pieces = 1 silver piece
10 silver pieces = 1 gold piece
100 gold pieces = 1 platinum piece
100 platinum pieces = 1 astral diamond
demimondian
MUP FTW — although I don’t think it carries voters; it carries states, unexpectedly.
Zifnab
If I were you, I would attack the darkness. May I suggest a Magic Missle?
For those of you interested in the depths of my D&D depravity, I still run a game with a couple college buddies and three of their female (I shit you not!) co-workers. They’re currently battling through a blasted wasteland to reach the towering mountain bastion of the terrible Red Dragon who – having recently acquired the Legendary Orb of the Sun – seeks to cast all of The Seven Meadows into perpetual darkness and ruin.
/omg so much dork!
SpotWeld
I’d be interesting to find out how common and RPG background is with political bloggers.
It’s be sorta weird to find out all the left-wing sites where Sword&Sorcery types and the right-wing sites were run by MilGamers.
Cassidy
Just call me Commissar Cassidy of the 10th Penal legion. Haven’t played in forever, and I’m still a Warhammer fantasy fan.
SGEW
NOOOOOO!
And I learn of Gygax’s death on Baloon Juice?!?!?
This is a dire day. Dire, I say.
dnA
Ever notice how the language of online MMORPGs seeps into the discourse on political blogs?
DecidedFenceSitter
Four who know about Nobilis (and the free Society of Flowers book available from Eos).
Let’s see my insane God-King players are in the process of rearranging the world to suit them. They’ll pay a price, and they’ll do it willingly.
I know many of my friends are writing about what Gygax started has meant for all of us, to quote one of them who wrote about the personal, and the worldly,
Geoduck
I realized too late that I posted the wrong Futurama quote. So.. goodbye Gary..
SGEW
What I’ve always wondered is the correlation between RPG players and those in the legal field.
Rules Lawyers, Unite!
Sinister eyebrow
Well, I’m a lawyer and played RPGs from 12 until I went to law school (and didn’t have time to run a game anymore). So about 23 years worth of gaming. And, honestly, if I had the time and knew some people who were interested in my neck of the woods I’d probably still be doing it.
My wife shakes her head and puts up with it. I plan to be an embarassment to my children. In fact, I’m counting on it.
Z
So sad. My only good jr high memories were playing D & D with the nerd guys. As the solo nerd girl, it got a little dicey dodging the crushes, but I ended up with a whole group of brothers. I still stay in touch with those guys, today.
canuckistani
I split my university years between D&D, Paranoia and Advanced Squad Leader, so I guess I ended up moderate, by Canadian standards anyway.
pharniel
*Zifnab* Says:
Technically you are the Press-ganged humans infused with power from the abstract concepts that makeup creation. you’re still human, you’re just ultra powerful.
as for *Kynn*, super sweet.
I may finaly get more of my friends to read more of this blog.
The MUP alone is worth it.
but does that mean there’s a Dire MUP?
Jon H
“Advanced Squad Leader, so I guess I ended up moderate, by Canadian standards anyway.”
I think the Canadian version of Advanced Squad Leader is what Americans call ‘Robert’s Rules of Order’.
Perry Como
One of the books is Call of Cthulhu. :shudder:
/dice
20
/me runs like hell
Bruce Baugh
DecidedFenceSitter: Add one more who knows about Nobilis. Actually, who edited the big white book. :)
Gygax’s passing is odd for me because I really don’t have any use for D&D and haven’t for decades…but I work in roleplaying gaming, which means that my entire livelihood runs back to what Gygax, Arneson, and their buddies did. The games I work on trace back as responses and reactions to D&D. So it matters to the dynamics of my field despite it not affecting my personal stuff. I’m really sorting through a lot of tangled emotions.
More generally, Gygax is one of those great demonstrations of why determinism is wrong. He came out of left field, never had any world-changing ambitions, and yet ended up making his mark on the entertainment of hundreds of millions of people. The conventions of computer gaming all run back to D&D too, after all. You absolutely can’t predict someone like him, nor guess at the cascading consequences of his inventions. Which makes the world more interesting.
blackfrancis
wow. strangley enough, I was reading about TSR & Gygax last week via wikipedia. It was then I recalled that not only do I have my old D&D books, but also Top Secret, Gamma World & Gangbusters. This is all hiding with my star fleet battles rulebooks.
geek, or what?
SGEW
The MUP advances as character class. The MUP is currently attempting to qualify for the Prestige Class “POTUS”, which will grant the MUP further special abilities.
Tony Alva
The personality profile get’s clearer with each revelation:
– FORMER military
– Unmarried
– Mid thirties, lives alone with cat
– D&D freak
Hmmmmmmmmm…
scott
I love all the comments relating GG’s death in a D&D context. “Running out of hit points” is still making me chuckle.
I started playing in 1975 and stuck with it until 1996. We moved to Central Misery and there was nobody to play with. It was probably the hardest thing to toss away when moving here, and that included my career.
I’m heading to Cold Wars tomorrow (historical miniatures). D&D proved to be the “gateway drug” for me to play with toy soldiers for 33 years now.
Sasha
God: Gary, roll saving throw vs. Death.
[clatter]
Gygax: Um, does a “2” save?
God: No. You’re dead.
Gygax: What, no Resurrection or Raise Dead?
God: Not in my campaign world.
urbell
God: You see, last time I let a guy cast Resurrection he went around abusing it. Ended up rules-lawyering to the point that he cast it on himself. No More.
Hawise
Gary Gygax was a great fan and a fun guy to party with, he will be missed. We have my husband’s original set and we will not discuss the wall of SPI games.
Patricia Scholes
Who designed the magazine cover of either Dungeon Magazine or Dragon Magazine with a cartoon bar scene picturing a large female barbarian sprawling at a table, with several others, dwarf, etc? It would have been a number of years ago, of course. Where can I get a copy of that magazine cover?
reality check
Gary Gygax was a douchebag. He leeched off the talent of others especially all the people who he stole from at TSR. He attributed his name to so much other peoples work then shelved all their projects and sued the shit out of any one that challenged the T$R monopoly. All the grief in his life was karma. The fact that the only decent work he produced (if he in fact did create it) was shelved – no more than he deserved. I’m amazed how ignorant gamers are of the history and the blind eye towards how he was responsible for destroying anyone else with good ideas for gaming if he was not involved. There is how you perceive the man, how he would see himself, and then there is the reality. Looking back the whole story is actually sad. Credit was never given to the real talent and imagination that fueled RPGs creation. The reverence you give to this sad little man is unwarranted. I’m sure there will be a lot more merchandise with his name on it for you to purchase. Enjoy 4th edition and 5th is on the way.
reality check
I expect my previous comment will be removed. Zealots usually like to stifle opposition…