Fair = her winning when other people were not even on the ballot:
Mrs. Clinton, in an appearance before a Hispanic business group in Washington Wednesday morning, argued that the delegates should be seated based on the results of the Michigan and Florida primaries, which were held in January in violation of Democratic Party rules.
Mrs. Clinton won both contests by sizable margins and would narrow the delegate gap with Mr. Obama by about 60 delegates if the January results are honored, but the delegations have been barred because of the party rules violation. She now trails Mr. Obama by more than 100 pledged delegates, according to most counts.
“The results of those primaries were fair and should be honored,” she told the U.S. Hispanic Chamber of Commerce here.
How does she even say this shit with a straight face (the answer, of course, is “Years of practice.”).
Consider this an open thread.
Ugh
Fair, of course, here means results Castro/Saddam/Kruschev would approve of. I mean, she barely beat “uncomitted” in Michigan.
Scotty
See, those 35 years of public service have come in quite handy. Obama doesn’t even come close to that type of useful, well tested experience.
Paul L.
I would have gone with arrogant, shameless power-hungry control freak.
TRex
How does she even say this shit with a straight face
There’s a Botox joke there, but I daren’t make it.
DrDave
Lack of scruples, ethics or anything resembling a moral compass.
Precisely the qualities we need in our next Commander in Chief.
Keith
Even with 2 large, unopposed states in her pockets, she still can’t catch up to Obama??!??! Oh, man, that’s funny.
Andrew
I almost hope that Clinton keeps harping on her too clever by half popular vote meme. Obama is now up by about 900,000 in the overall vote count, if you include caucuses, and he’ll probably extend this by the convention.
demkat620
I just can’t believe there are still democrats who want her to win. This is embarrassing. And I’m not going to Taylor Marsh’s place to get her spin on this.
That lady scares me.
Sasha
Virtually any politician would argue for something that would clearly benefit them, but most would be far more suave about it.
Clinton’s problem is how remarkably brazenly she’s approached the subject. Her relative gracelessness suggests and projects a selfish desire to benefit herself rather than an altruistic drive to actually see people represented fairly.
If this methodology continues, she will have a hard time winning any general election.
cmorenc
Because:
1) That’s the ONLY way she has any chance of coming anywhere close to even with Obama on pledged delegates, without which even she realizes will strike far too many people as a nomination crowbared away from Obama in sleazy, smoke-filled rooms by party elites with who-knows-what kind of “earmark” promises made to who-knows-whom.
2) That’s therefore the ONLY way she can fulfill her fervent expectation that she is the rightful claimant for this to be her “turn” at the nomination.
Failing that, she can’t actually say this but her secret wish is for McCain to win in 2008 over a crippled Obama (with loads of help with baseball bats swing by Clinton at his knees between now and Pa), that McCain prove to be hamstrung by the economy and Iraq, and for St. Hillary the scorned to reemerge in 2012 as the democratic nominee with an “I told you that unprepared black man couldn’t win in 2008”.
cmorenc
aggh. Needed a bit more editing above But youknowwhatImeant.
Z
This IS an embarrassment, but that is what you get with ends-justify-the-means politics.
HumboldtBlue
2) That’s therefore the ONLY way she can fulfill her fervent expectation that she is the rightful claimant for this to be her “turn” at the nomination.
Boy you hit that nail on the head, because as this campaign has dragged on, I’ve gotten the same sinking feeling that she and her supporters were caught completely by surprise in Iowa, and can’t fucking believe they are losing, and losing badly, to this upstart.
What the fuck do you mean I didn’t win the Iowa caucuses, it’s my turn goddammit, it’s my motherfucking turn. Bill said so in 1998, that’s why I ran to New York to become a Senator. Do you think I want to be a goddamned Senator? I should be President, it’s my turn and it’s not fair! It’s not fair!
HumboldtBlue
2) That’s therefore the ONLY way she can fulfill her fervent expectation that she is the rightful claimant for this to be her “turn” at the nomination.
Boy you hit that nail on the head, because as this campaign has dragged on, I’ve gotten the same sinking feeling that she and her supporters were caught completely by surprise in Iowa, and can’t fucking believe they are losing, and losing badly, to this upstart.
What the fuck do you mean I didn’t win the Iowa caucuses, it’s my turn goddammit, it’s my motherfucking turn. Bill said so in 1998, that’s why I ran to New York to become a Senator. Do you think I want to be a goddamned Senator? I should be President, it’s my turn and it’s not fair! It’s not fair!
Z
Ferraro is out. Finally, a glimmer of shame.
Rick Taylor
Yes, Hillary’s insistence that counting the results of the Michigan and Florida votes would be fair is outlandish. But both sides are arguing the position that fits their self interest. Obama’s campaign has argued against a revote, and his supporters have argued the delgates could be split fifty fifty, positions that I think are just as outlandish as the other extreme.
I’ve been fed up with Hillary over the suggestion that she and McCain had crossed some commander in chief threshold Obama hadn’t, and over the way she went for the jugular over Samantha Power’s remarks. But regarding the Michigan and Florida delegates, neither side has taken the high road.
Sloegin
Whatever the DNC decides about Florida and Michigan, they’d better do it quickly, I wouldn’t put it past Clinton to fark the whole nomination process up in a series of lawsuits potentially pushing this trainwreck into September and October.
And God forbid it lands in front of Bush-appointee Federal judges. Fun times.
4tehlulz
lol no:
Studly Pantload
Not so fast there, pardner.
From her rez letter:
“I am stepping down from your finance committee so I can speak for myself and you can continue to speak for yourself about what is at stake in this campaign.
The Obama campaign is attacking me to hurt you.
I won’t let that happen.”
If you squint at that test, you can see the big, upraised middle finger.
myiq2xu
Obama thinks it would be fair if he was awarded 1/2 the delegates from Florida and Michigan.
Ted
I specifically checked this thread to see if there was a myiq2xu defense of Hillary’s statement.
He/she didn’t disappoint.
Studly Pantload
Er, “text.” Trying to wrap up that post before a fellow co-worker caught on to my slackin’ ways.
Jake
I can “meh” or ignore most of her antics but then there’s another round of “Change the rules so I always win” bullshit and I want to set fire to any car or yard sporting a HILLARY 2008 sign, no mercy, no exceptions, sorry mom.
Jesus Christ, how can you talk to someone that fucking crazy?
myiq2xu
From TPM:
Didja know that:
Barack Obama is co-sponsor of the Senate version of this bill, “The Universal Right To Vote By Mail Act”, which declares that NOT ALLOWING mail in voting in every state (28 do through absentee balloting) disenfranchises voters?
Dennis - SGMM
Here’s a thought to conjure: President Hillary Clinton with her hands on the levers of Bush’s Unitary Executive, her ear to Bush’s massive surveillance apparatus and dead set on being re-elected.
Big Brother, meet Big Sister.
John S.
Sure, why not? It’s no less fair than awarding delegates from two invalid contests.
Jake
But did Hillary denounce and reject Ferraro? Did she turn all of her photos to the wall, light three white candles, walk around her old desk windershins five times while waving a censer of burning sage?
Oh good fucking Christ:
That isn’t a resignation letter, it’s a quote from a Victorian romance novel. “I shall sail upon the seven seas if I must to restore your honor!”
Pffffft!
Ted
Blah blah, the usual. Sorry myiq, no one here is mentally retarded enough to get on board your notion that Hillary deserves her proportion of FL or MI delegates when the only other major candidate left in the race wasn’t even on the ballot, or didn’t campaign there due to a previously agreed upon arrangment.
I realize you’re probably getting paid to do this, but tell your employer their advocacy money would be more effectively spent elsewhere.
Z
Oh crap. And here I thought Ferraro was actually going to behave like a decent human being.
Obviously, State Sen. Tupac Hunter represents his district in Michigan, but is he actually affiliated with the Obama campaign?
DrDave
20 years ago, I lived around the block from Geraldine Ferraro in Forest Hills. One morning, I was out running with my dog when she came flying out of her driveway in her Crown Vic and nearly took out the dog and me. And glowered in that same arrogant “stay out of my way” manner as she drove away.
So fuck you too, Gerry.
Z
Ah, my search shows that he does. Sen. Hunter needs to be smacked, then.
DrDave
You do realize that ensuring access to absentee ballots is just a wee bit different than a mail-in caucus, don’t you?
Zifnab
More or less arrogant, shameless, and power-hungry than the key figures of the Duke Lacross Rape Case?
myiq2xu
Obama’s Michigan campaign co-chair
John S.
Heh, you make a good little Big Tent Democrat parrot.
I guess you fail to see the distinction between the bill Obama sponsored and hastily slapping together a mail-in ballot election at the last minute.
Thankfully, the adults in charge do see the difference:
Nikki
What’s so wrong with splitting the delegates 50/50?
Andrew
Hearing the governors of these states bitch about not having delegates seated is a bit rich. They should not be seated. The end.
binzinerator
This demonstrates why Limbaugh et al want Hillary to be the Dem nom. She is just so damn divisive. She weakens the dems and galvanizes the right, it would be the best thing thing imaginable to the goopers.
She’s a polarizer. And we’ve already had 8 years of that kind of shit.
I know we’ll get 4 more years of the same goddamned sick criminal bullshit with a President McCain. But I’ve got this sinking and sadly growing sense that a President HRC won’t be much different.
I’ll still vote for her if she got the nom, but it’s a vote not for her, but against McCain, it’s a vote not for a chance at change but one of a desperate hope that she won’t be worse than the Bush status quo.
Amazing. Less than 2 months ago I watched Hillary and Obama debate, just before the Wisconsin primary, and after that debate I was just tickled pink to think I had two candidates I could support willingly and even enthusiastically. I felt the country couldn’t lose no matter who got the nom.
Well, it was a nice delusion while it lasted.
Jackie
What’s wrong with splitting the delegates 50/50 = no delegates as they’d cancel each other out.
Doing a mail in ballot in June is the most fair way and let the voters actually get their votes counted.
Studly Pantload
I went and read a little of those idiots so you won’t have to. For onesers, various posters are defending Pat “Racist Old Bastard” Buchanan’s assertion that Hillary should stand by Gerry and her very crackery remarks.
Oh, and they’re pissed off at Obama for using race to divide the Democratic Party. By, uh, being black, I guess. And running for president. And winning. If I’m readin’ em correctly.
Studly Pantload
Dear lord, they’re so sweet when they’re young and innocent like that.
The problem with splitting the delegates evenly is that it doesn’t get Hillary the opportunity to close the pledged delegate gap that she so desperately needs lest her campaign permanantly slips from her grasp, sealing forever her window of opportunity to make history as the first woman and first former First Lady to be elected president of the United States, and, dammit, it’s just so unfair, why does only Bill get all the glory, IT’S JUST SO UNFAIR ! ! !
Nikki
Shucks, you make me blush.
ThymeZone
Can’t say it better.
PaulW
Actually, Florida is opposed to Hillary. The voting’s still on for Al Gore.
reid
Every time she claims that the Florida and Michigan elections should stand, I add two anti-Hillary points to the meter. (It’s only one point if a high-level surrogate says it.) At some undetermined threshold, I stay home in November if she somehow gets the nomination. I don’t think it can get high enough for me to vote for McCain, but she seems determined to test it. What an utter lack of ethics to actively fight for this, much less go along with it.
PaulW
Fair? Fair? Fair and Hillary Clinton do not belong in the same sentence, much less the same article.
PaulW
It’s a question of custody. Who gets them for the weekends and holidays?
PaulW
Obama also wonders why he can’t get Leo McGarry to be his running mate. Um, Barack? Yeah, bad news there…
Bob In Pacifica
Just to set the record straight. Jeralyn at TalkLeft was touting that Clinton never agreed that the faux primaries would not count by producing the pledge all the candidates signed, then saying, see, it just says that they agreed not to campaign.
Unfortunately, the document says the candidates will not “campaign” or “participate.” Demanding delegates from a primary kinda sorta fits into the participation part.
Jackie
PaulW, you’re most likely right that “fair and Hillary” don’t belong together, but it’s also not fair that Obama doesn’t want FL or MI to re-vote at all. It’s not the voters that decided to move their primaries up; it was the states decisions.
I’d like to see both states have a fair chance to have votes counted and doing the mail-in ballot seems the most reasonable /fairest way. I don’t see why Obama is against that – the way the momentum is going, he could easily win both.
I live in WA and we (Democrats) held caucuses on a Sat. A day I work, so I couldn’t participate. I was “allowed to vote in the state primary” later in the month and I voted – knowing my vote wouldn’t count as all democrat delegates counted only during the caucus that I couldn’t participate in. I’m still angry. I hate caucuses. My vote didn’t count – and that’s not right. So I guess I feel for FL and MI voters who took time to vote knowing their votes wouldn’t count. How many voters didn’t even bother since they knew it was all symbolic?
That’s why I hope both states come to some agreement and are allowed to do mail-in ballots – and may the best man or woman win those delegates.
dslak
No, this isn’t unfair. That decision was made by those voters’ representatives, with full knowledge of the consequences the DNC was promising them.
These states didn’t want to follow the rules and don’t want to take the options being given to them. Why should Obama endorse some kind of re-vote, other than because that’s what Clinton wants?
In the last precedent for this, Deleware in ’96, they ended up having a caucus to replace an illegitimate primary. But Hillary won’t accept a caucus in Michigan . . . and that’s Obama’s fault!
nicestrategy
The State pols claiming disenfranchisement are just covering their ass for having played a game of chicken and lost, and at the moment, people who stayed home in MI and FL because they were told their vote wouldn’t count could be disenfranchised if the Clinton people get their way (which they won’t). These States tried to get more influence on the nomination contest by moving their dates up. A re-vote enfranchises everyone, but it also *rewards* their defiance. The suggestion that the FL date was changed over the objection of Democrats is a lie.
libarbarian
I noticed today that all of Hillarys arguments about fairness, experience, and having “earned it” are all perfectly true if you look at the nomination as being an award/reward granted by the actual party organization instead of a mantle bestowed by the greater Party of citizens who align Democratic.
Hillary has been boosting the Democratic party for 2 decades and, from what I understand, has helped many Democrats raise a lot of money. A lot of Democrats “owe” her favors especially within the actual party organization itself. Obama, on the other hand, hasn’t done nearly as much to help the official party organization or even just Democratic politicians in general.
If this was a contest for president of the Social Club, I would feel the same was if I were Hillary – “I’ve held a bagillion bakesales to raise money and this guy breezes in an steals my thunder by being charming”.
This is about the president of the US however and she is just being petty.
Delia
I don’t quite understand why a mail-in vote couldn’t be organized by a June or July deadline, if they were actually serious about it. I live in Oregon where all elections are mail-in, all the time. They’re remarkably straightforward and honest. In fact, I believe they were on Karl Rove’s target list for voter fraud investigation before his crack AG replacement scheme got caught.
And yes, I become a bigger Obama supporter every time Hillary opens her mouth.
zsa
It’s a simple scenario … the DNC set guidelines for primaries and caucuses, stated very clearly that state parties that didn’t follow the rules would not be seated at the convention. None of the states other than IA and NH like it at all, but none of those other states got all stupid about it.
Seating the FL/MI delegates would guarantee complete scheduling chaos in the 2012 cycle.
The Dems don’t need to seat FL and MI. They don’t need to arrange a do-over. The convention can go ahead just fine without them.
Mary
The mail in scheme for FL and Michigan makes me extremely nervous. Could they really ensure that it would be secure and tamper-free this quickly? I do not trust the Clinton’s at all; feel there will be some underhanded schemes, and then the Dems will be left with numerous lawsuits on their hands.
Dave_Violence
This is how Hillary! works. I remember when she was running for Senate – the first time – against Rick Lazio, a contest she couldn’t lose as Lazio revealed his inner 17-year-old and the citizens reacted accordingly.
So I’m walking down 14th street, East, in Manhattan the night of the election and I found one of Hillary!’s fliers. I happened to have voted for John Conner, the Libertarian candidate for Senator, knowing that he couldn’t win, but hey, that’s my right. Anyway, I read the flier and, apparently, a vote for Hillary! would bring about lower airfares. I kid you not.
Vote for Hillary! and you’ll get cheaper airline tickets. Did it happen? Well, she hasn’t taken credit for it yet… Again, this is how she works, shotgun a “stretched truth” to the voting public, enough people won’t question it, enough will believe it, enough are already voting for her, but there’s got to be more: leave no stone uncovered.
The Grand Panjandrum
It took Oregon almost ten years from inception to actual implementation of a mail-in election. Florida would NOT be the place to get it right in a few months.
CT
If the states wanted to pay for and run a primary or caucus, I’d be all for a revote. I don’t see why the DNC, or the candidates, should pony up to run a do-over election to replace ones that everyone knew wouldn’t count for anything. If FL and MI had stayed in their normal slots, they would have had significant impact, and both candidates could compete fairly.
The Democratic party in either state could have avoided this-that’s how WA ended up with a caucus the last two go-arounds. The Dems wanted to switch from an open to a closed primary and the state basically said, if we’re putting on an election for you, it can’t be a closed primary. So the party switched to a caucus to have more control over the process. So I’m not buying the whole “but the legislature MADE us do it!” excuse.
What is so hard about following the damn rules that all the candidates agreed to ahead of time?
The Grand Panjandrum
I highly recommend the do-over folks read this letter. Ausman, has a long history with the Clintons has declined to support either candidate.
Here is another link with an exchange between Ausman and Florida Democratic Party chairwoman Karen Thurman. Read all three posts. Life sure is a bitch when you aren’t quite as clever as you think you are.
Sorry Florida but you got fucked by your own state party leadership. Deal with them.
Delia
Well, you have a point there. I’ve only lived in Oregon about four years, but my impression is that the political process is basically honest but it takes forever to get anything accomplished because all sides have to argue it to death. Florida, of course is something else again.
Hillary, if she doesn’t get exactly her way, is going to use FL & MI as a way of casting doubt on the legitimacy of the entire nominating process.
Chuck Butcher
You guys let myiq set the debate on false Hillary terms. 1)Obama has said repeatedly it is up to DNC & the State Parties -which is true. 2) he said he didn’t think either state could manage a VBM.
I live in OR which has all VBM. It is more complicated than you seem to think, they can’t do it in a couple weeks. It is not cheap.
Obama has consistently said the true thing, it is up to DNC & the State Parties. DNC says give us a valid plan so we can validate it. State Parties do not do that.
Maybe back at the start of this the State parties could have worked out financing for a standard vote, doubtful, but it won’t happen now. They also cannot afford VBM. They might be able to afford to caucus if they get on it really hard, now. I give you those in the order of descending expense and neither State Party can afford to caucus, much less the other two methods.
DNC owns the damn election. Within DNC rules the State Democratic Parties own their election. Nobody else does and no court is going to do shit about it, nothing. You do not get this, free association says it is out of government’s hands. Two entities control the situation and none of the wannabe players do.
myiq0 does not care about facts.
There are no actual human delegates. There is a number of delegates allocated to the States. Delegates will be elected on the basis of a proportional vote in a Democratic Party Primary; which has not occurred. What exists is a number, no more.
John S.
Speaking as a Floridian, I agree.
The Grand Panjandrum
I’m in New Mexico and we have election history, as well. Jesus it took the Democrats 10-11 days to count all the votes after our primary on February 5th. It was disgraceful, but Bill Richardson got his early vote.(Although he had withdrawn by then.)
zzyzx
There’s also the whole weird Voting Rights Act issue:
Both MI and FL have counties that fall under that jurisdiction. You figure there will be another week or two hashing out the plan and then if this applies and there’s a 60 day waiting period, there’s no way the ballots will be out in time.
D-Chance.
Between Obama’s pastor (Wright) and McCain’s supporting pastors (Hagee, Parsley)… is this the year the country finally grows one and tells the fundies on BOTH sides of the aisle to take their religions and shove ’em?
over_educated
I find the pleas that Michigan and Florida voters being “disenfranchised” is totally disingenous. The state party KNEW what was going to happen if they moved the primary date up, but they did it anyway.
Seating those delegates would be a bad decision for a host of resons, some totally unrelated to Clinton/Obama:
1. It send the message that you can flout the rules and still get your way. The whole reason they moved the election forward was the presumption that “late-states” didn’t count. Ooops. they rolled the dice and lost, they should have to deal with the consequences of their decision.
2. It will make primamry electoral reform impossible. I’m not a big fan of Iowa/New hampshire having such a large role in our nomination selection process but now if the DNC tries to include parity you can bet your ass that New Hampshire and Iowa will move their dates up as well. No candidate would dare to not campaign in those states because they would know that those delegates would most likely be seated regardless of waht the DNC says.
3. It looks unfair. I do not care how the Clinton campaign tries to spin this, but you cannot possibly believe that it is fair to seat delegates on state where he wasn’t on the ballot. Especially considering the DNC told all of the candidates before the election that the delegates would not be seated and that they should not campaign in those states.
4. If those states broke heavily for Obama, I will bet anyone on this board a thousand dollars that the shrieks coming from the Clinton campaign about seating those delegates would make Obama’s concerns look like a polite teaparty.
I have said previosuly that I would vote for Clinton if she won. But if they seat those delegates I don’t think I could bring myself to vote for anyone this year. I am that angry about this issue. If she wins fairly, or even with the superdelegates, I can accept that, but this kind of chicanery represents everything that I HATE about the Bush administration. I will not support it whether it si done by a democrat or republican.
John S.
Because it is.
over_educated
Ugh at my grammar in that sentence. Note to self, stop typing when annoyed.
Evinfuilt
I dont’ see a problem with Florida pulling off a mail-in vote. Just get an envelope, and fill it with some chads. See what happens.
Medicine Man
Yeah, what could go wrong?
The Mantis
I sent almost the exact same question to a friend via email yesterday. Anyone who can report that story without:
A.) throwing up a little in their mouth
B.) mentioning that hers was the ONLY NAME ON THE BALLOT in Michigan
C.) mentioning that her surrogates held fundraisers in FL when every other candidate was honoring his pledge not to participate in any “campaign-related activities” in that state (in classic Clintonian parsing, HRC decided that didn’t apply to fundraising).
If that’s her idea of fair, and the press is just fine reporting this story without clarifying how UNFAIR it actually is, then we truly HAVE accomplished our mission in Iraq and the American economy truly IS just fine, thank you. Also, the sky is green and water is no longer wet…