Anyone who is remotely surprised by this has not been paying attention:
Looking down the road to May 13, Senator Hillary Clinton holds a huge lead over Senator Barack Obama in the West Virginia Presidential Primary. The first Rasmussen Reports telephone survey of the race shows that Clinton attracts 55% of the Likely Democratic Primary Voters while Obama is supported by 27%. Eighteen percent (18%) are not sure.
Clinton is viewed favorably by 72% of West Virginia’s Primary Voters, Obama by 53%.
Now I don’t want to throw the state under the bus (since that is so fashionable these days) because I love it here so much, but anyone who is surprised by this simply is not paying attention. Racism is alive and well in central PA, SE Ohio, and much of WV. What Carville said about central PA (it resembles Alabama) can be said about the regions I discussed, and it was why I was able to say, when I was a Republican, that most of the racists I have met in my lifetime were Democrats. I wasn’t lying.
If Obama wins the nomination, he will have to win the general election without WV, because I will be absolutely shocked if he carries it. Depressing, but that is how I see it.
See also this Politico piece about the rubes in PA.
*** Update ***
Before the stupidity in the comments section gets too out of hand, let me be clear. I am not claiming that anyone who refuses to vote for Obama is a racist. I just am not. But there are a number of things working against Obama in WV, and chief among them is the presence of a number of people who will, under no circumstances, vote for a black man. Particularly one named Hussein Obama. Hell, a cab driver I use occasionally has twice told me that he applied for the job as trapper at the White House, because come January there is going to be a coon or a beaver there. Not only does he feel comfortable telling me that, but he has told me at least twice. Why? Because I am sure it gets a lot of yuks with other passengers.
While there is racism present to varying levels in every state, what makes WV different is that there is not a presence of a large AA community who will enthusiastically balance out that vote like there are in other states. Add to it that WV is a Hillary Clinton kind of state- lots of blue-collar union types who are comfortable working with and voting the party machine. As the Clinton’s are an established name, the Clinton’s are viewed as the party candidate.
Again, I am not claiming a refusal to vote for Obama makes one racist. I am claiming that, in WV, at least, there will be a number of people who refuse to vote for him because they are in fact racist. That isn’t a smear, that is just the truth. If you can not deal with it, well, that is on you. It is also why people like me have been frequently upset throughout this campaign when we have seen what we perceive to be dogwhistles coming from the Clinton camp. Whipping up this sort of sentiment is, in my book, inexcusable.
*** Update #2 ***
Fan mail, even after the update:
Yeah, the only reason NOT to vote for Obama is that one is racist.
That is the typical smear from the Obama whores and even his campaign.
Asshole.
L2READ, jackass.
*** Update ***
For chrissakes, Armando, I have given a number of reasons along with race why Obama will not do well in WV, chief of which is that this is a Clinton kind of state with a lot of blue-collar workers. Additionally, and you can pass this on to your apparently dull commenters, I am well aware that there is sexism at play in this election.
However, race will play a factor in the votes in WV, and more so that sexism. I am sorry this upsets you delicate souls at Hillary HQ Talk Left so much, but it upsets me as well. Just for different reasons. I don’t think race will be what determines the election here in WV, but it certainly will explain a portion of the margin of victory for Hillary.
Napoleon
Having grown up in Ohio I can safely say that anything south of Columbus is really in Dixie.
shortstop
I’m a little surprised by the extent of the difference–not much, though.
Hey, how’s this for a new Clinton goalpost?!? From the NYT today:
“Mrs. Clinton’s advisers said that absent some deal to seat the delegates from those states, the campaign would still argue that the popular vote in Michigan and Florida be counted.
“’The popular vote is the popular vote for all to see,’ said Harold Ickes, a senior adviser to Mrs. Clinton. ‘For people to claim that because the delegates weren’t seated you can’t count the popular vote seems somewhat goofy.'”
Librarian
That wouldn’t be surprising, given that WV has voted GOP in he last few elections. Why shouldn’t it keep on voting against its own interests? If the people there are so fucking moronic as to insist on voting that way, screw them, who needs them. By the time they realize their mistake, all of their mountaintops will have been blown away.
Pixie
Well if people can’t get past their own bigoted attitudes to pull the lever for a black man or a woman and would rather have the country ****ed by another 4 years of George W. Bush, this time older and fatter, then I guess they deserve all the shit that happens to this country. I feel sorry for the rest of ya’s, but I’ll be a Canadian soon (my fi-ANCE is Canadian! =D Woo). I sure do miss how my country used to be…or rather, how I perceived it to be prior to 2000.
shortstop
It does explain Jay Rockefeller. And little else can.
zsa
My parents are Florida Dems who didn’t vote in the primary because they were told it wouldn’t count.
Why does Clinton want to disenfranchise my parents and hundreds of thousands like them?
David
The Alabama comment isn’t original to Carville – I’ve been hearing it since I was in high school there.
dslak
Anyone care to take bets on whether p.luk will declare Obama’s foregone loss in Pennsylvania, even if only by single digits, as a sure sign that his candidacy is doomed?
As a bonus, any bets on whether he’ll say the same when he loses West Virginia?
L Boom
Having grown up in Central PA (outside of Harrisburg), I can definitely vouch for the fact that racism is alive and well in the area. The area itself is actually pretty interesting, though. Harrisburg itself is quite well integrated and people generally seem to get along fairly well.
Go out into the suburbs, though, and the racism ramps up real fast. Went out to a movie a few years ago (Capital City Mall, if anyone knows the area) and saw “Die Ni**er Die” written on a bathroom stall. Pretty sure they didn’t mean “The Ni**er, The”, too.
The Other Steve
Back in 1996, I had to travel for business to Cleveland and then later Cincinnati.
I was shocked by the difference between the two cities.
dslak
You can say it when you’re a Democrat, too. It just hurts more that way.
The Other Steve
I am frankly ok with sealing a new governing majority of states north of the mason-dixon line, and the plains and mountain west.
I don’t like southerners. It’s something in the water down there. They’re just born stupid and lazy.
dslak
The Union states never really had to come to terms with racism the way the Southern states did. Because the Southern states were the original home of the Confederacy and Jim Crow, their racism was always more blatant and openly cried out for justice.
Thus, the twin stains of slavery and racism could always be laid, for Northerners, on “those people” in the South. They’re the ones who need to change their outlooks; we’re just fine.
Something similar happened to Eastern Germany with regard to Nazism. The Western Germans had to come to grips with their complicity in the Holocaust, where the Easterners took the line of “We’re all communists now, so we’re not responsible for what the fascists did.” Thus you find sympathy with the Third Reich more often among people living in the former Eastern Germany than you find elsewhere in the country.
Napoleon
Night and day. Oil and water. Up and down.
A few years ago an opinion piece appeared in the Cleveland Plain Dealer, I think a little after Bush’s 04 election, suggesting, tongue in cheek, that northern Ohio should succeed and join Canada (which I would guess we have more in common with then the “Queen City”).
Snail
It’s not that they’re lazy. It’s just that it’s impossible to physically exert yourself when it’s 95 degrees with 80% humidity all the time. Living for generations in these conditions has bred into them slower movements so they don’t overheat. You can think of them as bipedal sloths.
Buck
Even the black ones?
MobiusKlein
It’s amazing how much the Wright flap has brought out the anti-Obama trolls, on other sites at least. On that politico site, they sure have a lot more to say about Obama being bad than about Clinton being good.
Back when John Edwards was in the race, he said that if you weren’t voting for Obama because he was black, he didn’t want your vote. If you weren’t voting for Clinton because she’s female, he didn’t want your vote. Noble and well said.
Unfortunately, I have hear no similar sentiment from the Clinton campaign.
zsa
In the South, calling someone “bipedal” generally means they have sex with underage girls and underage boys.
p.lukasiak
this is confirmed by the data in the 50 state SUSA poll. Clinton beats McCain by 5 points there (47%-42%), but Obama gets creamed by McCain in WV by 18 points (35%-53%).
And that poll was taken before the whole Wright mess.
Speaking of which, if you don’t think that that the wright mess has hand an impact, take a look at Ohio. From late February to mid-March, the Clinton-McCain matchup went from 50% Clinton/40% McCain to 50% Clinton/44% McCain. During the same period, the Obama-McCain match-up went from 50% Obama/40% McCain to 43% Obama/50% McCain.
Clinton held on to her white support (losing only 1%) — and her males and female support numbers were unchanged. McCain’s advances were primarily due to undecided white voters flocking to McCain — his female support went up 7 points, and his male support went up 3 points.
Obama basically hemorraged white support to McCain, and among both men and women.
Obama, on the other hand,
J. Michael Neal
I think that one of the results of the civil rights movement is that, now, everyone has a chance to be an ignorant redneck.
wvng
As a West Virginian by choice, I am sadly not surprised by the poll. Depressed as hell, but not surprised. My state is full of wonderful people, and it is also ground zero for willfull ignorance in America. We’re on top of many lists you want to be on the bottom of (first-ish in smoking and fat!), and on the bottom of many lists you want to be on top of (lowest use of seatbelts).
I actually think WV is the state Obama is least likely to win, of all the states.
Sigh.
Wilfred
I live in Brazil, a black country without one black national office holder. My friends have expressed a great deal of interest in this election, solely because of Barack Obama. Their reasoning is that if the US, the world leader in cultural impact, can actually nominate and elect a black person such a singular event would effectively cripple residual racism in much of the world. I’ve heard similar things from my Arab comrades. Electing a woman president is hardly a big deal when even Pakistan and the Philippines did so.
If Obama is undermined because of his race it will be a goddamned pathetic shame for a country that really can’t afford another one.
p.lukasiak
actually, there are a whole slew of deep red states that Obama has even less of a chance of winning — but in those states, Clinton is worse off than even Obama. But (aside from Clinton’s home state of Arkansas) WV is definitely the state Clinton has an excellent shot of winning, and Obama is almost certain to lose.
Buck
Equal opportunity baby! That is all we were ever after.
SamFromUtah
I actually think WV is the state Obama is least likely to win, of all the states.
Possibly. I bet my state will give it some hefty competition, though.
Zifnab
Barack Obama Speech to Charleston, WV
I don’t doubt that Clinton will carry WV. To be honest, a state born from Confederate defection that now proudly waves around the Confederate flag is probably not your role model for intellectual rigor, so I can’t blame them for picking their candidates on name recognition and paleness of skin tone.
That said, if we see landslide turn-outs for Dems in general down there – like we have across the rest of the country – I won’t complain. So long as you’ve got high Democratic turnout, that’s something to be greatful for.
I don’t care how Obama does in WV. I’m more concerned by how much he can swing the polls once he starts campaigning there. If he can bring Clinton’s 30-point lead to a 15-point lead, it just proves that our candidate has mastered the fine art of changing people’s minds. And that will go a long way for him both in and after the general.
Gus
You’re giving Hillary supporters a lot of ammo here. If Obama can’t win in WV because of the racists, he might have trouble in Pennsyltucky and a lot of other places where his race might be a factor.
Paul L.
Allow me a ruin your metaphor.
Obama won ALABAMA and MISSISSIPPI.
Nice to see you go with the “If you do not vote for Obama, you are a racist” meme. Sexist pig.
Svensker
We were recently at a book sale in rural Pennsylvania, talking to a very well-dressed, educated and just “nice” middle aged woman. We’d been chatting for quite a while, really enjoying ourselves and liking her, when she said, “How are the blacks where you live?” Gobsmacked doesn’t describe our reaction.
steve davis
Yeah, because there are just a ton of racists in the Democratic party, as is obvious from the huge number of blackk representatives who’ve been forced over to the Republican camp in order to find enlightened progressives. And of course, the number of people who won’t vote for a black man, and hence will vote instead for a woman who is arguably more liberal, is just staggering. “We ain’t gonna vote for no n***, so we’re gonna vote for that goldurned female.” Truly, the stupidity of this particular diary is only topped by the soft bigotry of a writer who assumes anyone not voting for a black man must be doing so out of racism. That frankly smacks of a ugly race fetishism to me.
Neal
Fuck you. I generally like this site but god DAMN there are some self-righteous pricks on here.
ThymeZone
WV is a state now?
Sorry, had to, please, save your tomatoes.
I guess I am not surprised that the race factor has an effect in some states, the surprise would be if it did not. Racism is alive and well in certain areas of this country, and if this campaign exposes that for what it is, then that’s to the good.
I am little surprised by the size of the gap here, though. McCain is a truly awful, awful candidate, and my hunch is that the people of WV don’t really know either of these candidates (McCain and Obama) very well. There could be a lot of factors in these numbers, including basic stuff like name recognition. According to CNN recently, 15% of people in an informal poll believe … that is to say, sound sure … that Obama is a muslim. When asked why they think so, they’d say things like, Uh, well, Obama? That’s a muslim name, right?
So if the last week has taught us anything, it’s that the idiot bloc is alive and well out there. It’s also alive and well in the press and the media and in blogville.
The question is, do we get scared off by the idiot bloc, or do we stand up to it and say, enough is enough? You had your party at our expense, now we are going to take the country back.
You know me, I’m for taking the country back. Been saying it in those exact words here for three years, and I can’t be deterred by scary numbers from WV, or black-pastor-bashing even from the ranks of Dems who should know better.
I think Obama wins a straight up contest between himself and John McCain nationally and I am ready for that contest. Bring it on.
ThymeZone
Oh sure, but look, what he said was true. The Red States are apparently run by a bunch of morons, most of them.
What, are we going to argue that the Red States are the smart ones?
I’ll wait for that argument to appear at any moment now.
{ crickets }
zsa
WWMUPD?
Jen
Amen. Find PA on a map. Now find NC on a map. Now tell me which one Obama’s going to win. And he’s going to win it thanks to a broad coalition of people here which include professional, intelligent folks with good jobs, good manners, and good chocolate chess pie.
/sticks out tongue
grandpajohn
Wonder if its a waste of my time to point out to the enlightened south haters here, that neither WV , Southern Ohio or Central PA are southern states? Well so much for Deans 50 states strategy or the concept of de facto versus de jure racism
Jen
To be fair, though, I don’t think The Other Steve is self-righteous. I just think he’s bitter because he had to go all the way to Siberia to find a woman who would date him.
shortstop
I for one don’t assume that. I don’t assume I know much about the state being discussed, either. Can you help me understand what it is about Clinton and her platform that inspires such unusually high support in the state of West Virginia? What issues on which Clinton is stronger than Obama are particularly resonant with West Virginians this year?
Tim C
Oh, it’s long been said that Pennsylvania is Philadelphia and Pittsburgh with Alabama in the middle.
scott
As a former resident of the Eastern Panhandle and current resident of the not-so-great state of Misery, I can safely say that
Appalachia is a state of mind.
Bigotry and raciscm are rampant here in the red, rurl parts of the state.
Different geographic location, same mind set.
Pb
I don’t think so; what makes you think that the woman in the race is going to get the bigot vote over the white man? And yes, p.luk is right about the numbers in the southern states–Hillary Clinton’s numbers look great in AR, good in WV, and bad everywhere else, whereas Obama’s numbers look worse all over except for in VA, and–marginally–TX and NC, where neither of them are likely to win against McCain at the moment. On the other hand, Obama’s polling better in the west.
Bey
My co-worker (from PA) told me a few weeks ago that he couldn’t vote for anyone named Obama. With a straight face. I asked how he felt about Obama’s stance on the issues, especially the war. Co-worker allowed as how he agreed with Obama’s policies, but just couldn’t vote for a man with that name.
This is a nice guy – educated, kind, works well with those of other races and religions. He has no idea he’s a racist.
It’s out there, alive and well.
Quackers
So what else is new, America’s collective lizard brain continues to dominate our elections and the rest of us are doomed to live with the results. I’m really beginning to hate these people.
Ninerdave
Reading that Politico article was kind of a slap in the face. Being born and raised in the San Francisco Bay Area I occationally get reminded that not all of the country is accepting as the Bay Area.
Aside from that I think this is the key quote of the article was Smerconish’s:
Ed Drone
Well, they DO get back more from the Federal Government than they pay in taxes, so there’s some kind of basic cunning going on there, for sure.
Then again, that may be due to the Republican fondness for sticking it to the blue states, instead of the red states’ innate smartitudeness.
Ed
cleek
i’m a NY to NC transplant, and i gotta say, i don’t see much difference in the redneck-to-genius ratio between the two states.
PK
I have noticed that the most vicious racists are new immigrants from Russia and Eastern Europe. Southern whites are moderates compared to them.
Gus
Paul L, African Americans made up 50% of registered Democrats in Mississippi. Obama took 90% of the black vote. Alabama is 26% African American. WV is 96% white. Nice try, though.
p.lukasiak
wow… Obama won the Democratic primary in those states… But in 2004, in Alabama Bush beat Kerry 63%-37% (despite Kerry carrying 91% of the black vote), and in Mississippi Bush beat Kerry 60% to 40% (again despite Kerry carrying 90% of the black vote.
Obama’s victories in both states were based on racking up massive majorities among black voters — in Alabama, blacks were 51% of the democratic electorate, and Obama carried them with 84% support…whites were 44% of the electorate, and Obama got only 25% of their votes. In Mississippi, blacks made up 50% of the democratic electorate, and Obama got 90% of their vote — whites made up 48%, and Obama got 26% of the white vote.
In 2004 blacks made up 25% of the electorate in Alabama, and 34% of the electorate in Mississippi, and despite Kerry’s overwhelming support among black voters, he still lost by 26 points in Alabama and 20 points in Mississippi.
THAT is what Carville is talking about…
Neal
How is generalizing a whole segment of the country any better than the racism we’ve been talking about? Seriously.
I’m in Florida. 3,583,544 people in Florida voted for Kerry in 2004. 1,366,149 in Georgia. So on and so forth…and he was a horrible candidate!
Maybe I get a little defensive when people pick on the south, but lets look at non-southern red states: MT, NV, ND, SD, OH, IN, KY, NE, KS, CO, UT, AK, OH, etc etc…
In those states you can bet that a big chunk of people did not vote for Bush…but enough of them did.
That’s my argument in a nutshell. It only takes 50% + 1.
Asa bonus, I will say that the only Democrat I know who won’t vote for a black man is from fucking Boston…and he doesn’t use the phrase “black man” or “African American” to refer to him.
ThymeZone
Snap! Helluva a good point.
Andrew
Hillary is the final Cylon! You’ve been warned.
p.lukasiak
The question is, do we get scared off by the idiot bloc
well, face it TZ, you are kinda scary at times ;-)
Dug Jay
Given that at the moment, Obama is looking more and more like bunt toast, what are Hillary’s chances of carrying WV in the general election. Here’s the latest Gallup which shows Obama sinking like a turd in a toilet tank:
Woodrowfan
Having grown up in Dayton I remember the joke from when I was a kid, “What’s the definition of a Daytonian? A [Kentucky native] who ran out of gas on his way to Detroit.” I’ve lived in SE and SW Ohio and outside of a few towns and cities (Dayton, Oxford, Athens and some parts of Cincinnati)it is Dixie-lite.
Neal
Thank you, Jen.
Snail
Is that round toast with a hole in the middle?
Napoleon
In Ohio Strickland carried southern Ohio as Brown did in his senate race. Along the eastern edge of the state on the Ohio River are several counties that go for Dems even in the worst years. You just can’t automatically write those places off. I think MUP can carry them.
John S.
No less goofy than Ickes complaining about seating the MI delegates when he’s one of the people responsible for stripping them in the first place.
John S.
No less goofy than Ickes complaining about seating the MI delegates when he’s one of the people responsible for stripping them in the first place.
Fulcanelli
I think the MSM for it’s election coverage TV shows are going to have to come up with a new version of the red state/blue state map system and modify it to reflect voter IQ.
The red areas will be where the voters are TOO FUCKING STUPID to realize how they getting date raped by the neo-con beltway butt pirates, global free market corporate sociopaths and political machine insiders in both parties who don’t give a fuck that they:
Don’t have and can’t get a decent paying job.
Don’t have and can’t afford health insurance.
Can’t afford to keep their home.
Can’t save a dime for their retirement.
Can’t afford good schools in their neighborhoods or to put their kids through college, thus dooming them to live ignorant and pathetic lives like them.
Live virtually enslaved by fundamentalist religious toxic fairy tales.
Have sent 4000 Americans to their deaths for a country that wouldn’t lift their leg to piss on us if we were on fire and still has large swaths of it’s terrain governed by a system described as “tribal” (as in primitive).
Have murdered an staggering number of the aforementioned country’s women and children in the quest to find terrorists which everyone knows came from and were financed by our ally right next door.
Allowed a historically vital major American city to be almost wiped off the map by a forseeable natural disaster and not rebuilt.
Took a steaming, sloppy shit on our military veterans coming home from the aforementioned war.
And on and on and on ad nauseum…
And the blue areas will be where the voters who want to implement forced sterilization (or kill them in their sleep if they refuse) on the red area people because they are just TOO FUCKING STUPID to realize how they are voting for their own financial and national extinction and should really stop it..
dslak
Next time I go home from college, I’ll be sure to tell my parents how ignorant and pathetic they are. They’ll be so proud of me.
Dork
Obama’s toast. Clinton v. McCane, and I’m afraid McCane wins that.
The Dems took a no-lose situation and are about to lose. Which is usually impossible, except when when Democrats are running it.
Jen
For people to claim that because everyone knew the primaries weren’t going to count, and because Obama’s name wasn’t even on the ballot in Michigan, thereby skewing the results to an unknown degree, that you can’t count the popular vote, of course, makes perfect sense.
p.lukasiak
Let me be the first to say that such polls are not merely worthless, but pointless — even though it does make Clinton look better than Obama.
There is no national democratic primary. And while its one thing to consider how Democrats (rather than Republicans or Independents) actually voted in each state, looking at Democratic sentiment nationwide is a complete waste of time. If you’re gonna look at any nationwide polls, it should be the Clinton/McCain and Obama/McCain matchups — and given the volatility in those polls (see my Ohio reference for an example) even those polls are meaningless until we get much closer to the convention.
ThymeZone
I don’t know what your point is. Until the latter part of the 20th century, Florida was a typical part of the Deep South and was part of the violent, abusive history of racism in this country.
We’re not going to sit here and pretend that we’ve moved past racism yet in this country. Sorry, the history is too recent, and the memories too fresh.
The fact is, we are going to confront a serious question this year, which is, can this country elect a black president? That’s a pretty big deal, maybe the biggest deal ever dealt with in any presidential election in our history so far, the Roosevelt-Hoover contest being the only one I can think of that had this kind of import. But that’s arguable, just my opinion.
In any case, I can quite clearly remember sitting in a restaurant in this very large city in modern America and watching black people being turned away at the front door … and I’m in Arizona, not the South. This is the West. I sat right there and watched it. We saw Willie Mays turned away in a restaurant here (I personally didn’t see it but I know people who did).
Racism is not a myth, it’s for real, and living in a country where the Red States gave us a president of the people who think the earth is 6000 years old, gives me the right to bash those states as I see fit. Not just the right, but the responsibility. My backward little state is trying to move forward, electing new Dem congresscritters, a Dem woman governor, and still the only state in the Union that has rejected DOMA by referendum. Proving that it’s possible to advance.
dslak
P.luk, you are in particularly un-hackish form today. Did you bump your head or something?
Neal
TZ
BH Buck
You said it!
ThymeZone
Really, Mr. Ickes? Then you won’t have a problem conceding the nomination when the primaries are over and Mr. Obama has the lead in counted popular votes?
Because that will almost certainly be the case, as it will be the case with the delegate count.
BH Buck
And don’t you know Rush Limbaugh is laughing his fat ass off over it too.
It’s what he wanted. And democrats handed it to him on a platter.
Buck
The thing about red states is that there are just so damned many of them.
ThymeZone
Then you are too, because we both do the same thing, which is to speak our minds and let the chips fall where they may. I just use John Cole’s approved profanity more than you do. I guess I just figure he uses it to encourage us to use it, so I do.
Andrew
What’s so hard to understand here? In the South, most of the racists left the Democratic party to become Republicans. In the North, that transition is happening much later and much more slowly. Boston probably has more hard core racists than Raleigh in general, to say nothing of Democrats.
Rarely Posts
Thank you for clarifying that.
Tim
Yeah, I’m no fan of the south. I’ve traveled through Mississippi enough times to really be freaked out by some the behavior I’ve seen. And there are some really horrible aspects to southern culture, particularly southern white culture. As an Obama supporter I’ll even stipulate to the notion that there is no freakin way he can win in the deep south, and that overt and covert racism will be a challenge for his campaign.
But the “F*** the South” stuff is way way way outside the lines of what is acceptable discourse. It just makes you look like the mirror image of what we’re supposed to be fighting against.
Heck I think that’s the fundamental difference between the Hillary and Obama people on this site. We Obamamatons see him as someone who can break the logjam this kind of crap represents and the Clinton supporters see him as just a less-effective version of their own candidate.
Either way the south, like any community, is far more complex than any stereotype. Let the GOP live in a black & white world. This Democrat is better than that.
cleek
speaking of Raleigh. Bill Clinton is going to be at the Cary Senior Center tomorrow 4:45ish. free admission, get there early – only 300 seats + 100 standing.
Martin
And yet he is campaigning there rather than throwing it away as Clinton did for half the states in the country. But Obama won’t win most of the south nor anything that touches Appalachia in any meaningful way. Even if he can make the argument that the economic problems aren’t rooted in race, I think it’s asking just too much for many people there to vote for him.
I think he stands a much better chance in places like Utah (thought that’s not saying much, to be honest).
And there are more Dem racists and fewer GOP racists than Dems want to admit. Most GOP aren’t racists, in truth, but once the Civil Rights Act was passed, they seem completely unmoved by race issues dumping that as a social problem with no governmental implications. IOW, nothing that more bootstraps won’t solve.
ThymeZone
So, the Dems at BJ who squawked for a year about Dems standing up to Bush are now ready to concede a drop-kick election to Rush Limbaugh and his big mouth?
Did I miss something? When did Dems turn into a bunch of sniveling cowards around here?
4tehlulz
That’s not really true anymore. There’s been a significant influx of immigrants recently (esp. Brazilians), and most of the the old school anti-busing types either moved out or died.
Thank God.
Dennis - SGMM
I’ve mentioned before that I spent some months in Huntington, WV. Some of the nicest people I’ve ever met – but, I’m not black so I can’t speak to their prejudices. I do know that no one there gave me any shit about being from California, unlike say, the mellow state of Oregon. I’d also add that the best West Virginia jokes I ever heard were told to me by West Virginians.
Despite being a backwater in many ways, West Virginia does tremendous work for it’s autistic, something some of the more enlightened states might want to try.
That is an abysmally stupid fucking remark. So, Mark Twain, Shelby Foote and William Faulkner were born stupid and lazy? Get a grip. I disagree completely with some of the attitudes of the American south, all the more so because I spent time there in every place from South Texas to Louisiana, to Mississippi, to Alabama to West Virginia. I met people there who were charming, gracious, enlightened and the best storytellers on the planet. I met others who made me wish that I had a faster car. To paint southerners with one broad brush is just as bullshit as painting any race or group with one.
Billy K
How do alcoholics balance out racist voters?
You’ve jumped the shark, John.
Neal
TZ, I never said racism wasn’t alive and well. That wasn’t my argument. I objected to the comments about all southerners being stupid/racist/red staters/blah blah blah.
And yes, we are in the south here in Florida. That was my point. I am in Florida. My family has been in the southern US for 200 something years. I think that makes me a southerner. (Ironically my direct line fought for the union in the Civil War but that’s besides the point – Northeast Tennessee was a mixed bag).
I agree that racism is an unfortunate truth all around the world. I don’t agree that all southerners are worthless. All good?
Jen
Did you see that Daily Show where John Oliver is discussing how Bush is actually liked in Africa, because he’s done some good stuff there, and got a shout-out from Bono; and John Oliver talks about how he had accepted the idea that Bush was just completely incompetent and bad, but to realize that all this time he was capable of doing good and has just chosen not to, was blowing his mind…?
That’s how I’m feeling about P-Luk today.
4tehlulz
protip: Rush would shit on anything the Democrats did.
ThymeZone
Fine, but I have never made any such sweeping statement.
However, we are in America, and majorities count. When states do things like elect Strom Thurmond, there are consequences. I know there are many good people in the South, but unless the last couple-three decades of politics has just been an aberration, you are outnumbered.
Sinister eyebrow
I’d agree with Andrew on the Boston v. Raleigh argument. I’d say it holds for PA v. NC as well. I lived in Philly for a while, lived many years in NOLA and now live in Raleigh, NC. PA was probably about on par with Louisiana for racism. Outside Philly, it was really quite shocking. I believe in the 1990s that PA had the 2nd highest number of active KKK members of any state in the country. Number 1 in that study was … Connecticut. I don’t know if that still holds or not (Idaho and Washington State may have won the crown over the past 10 years or so).
Raleigh really is pretty progressive compared to the rest of the South and compared to the rural areas of the North.
Hypatia
I would also add that as a tactical matter it’s probably not a good idea to keep slanging Clinton voters as stupid, lazy, ignorant, senile, racist, ‘low-information,’ etc. They’re not so ‘low-information’ that they’re not picking up on it.
I note for the record that I too agree that there are voters out there who will not vote for Obama no matter what because he is black, and that this is a bad thing.
ThymeZone
Totally agreed. And the food is the best in the country.
Give me some fried catfish, some gumbo, some crawdads, some biscuits and gravy, some grits, and some greens. I’m in hog heaven.
Jen
Obama picked UNC, and he won his Senate pool last year. I am feelin’ the love more every day.
Jen
Exhibit A: There appears to be disproportionate Triangle-area representation on BJ.
That might not disprove the “lazy” bit, though…
jenniebee
Now explain how that isn’t as misogynistic as it is racist or that the misogyny and racism don’t cancel each other out exactly because shut up that’s why, or something.
Jen
I don’t think John would contend it isn’t misogynistic. I think it was just his example of accepted racism because that’s what he was talking about. Clearly it’s a twofer.
p.lukasiak
There are three kinds of “racism”, IMHO.
The first is the kind who won’t vote for a “person who happens to be black” These are people who won’t vote for a black candidate no matter what.
The second is the kind who won’t vote for a “person who identifies as black”. These are the people who will vote for a black candidate as long as he isn’t “too black” — as long as he “transcends race”, or is “non-threatening”, etc.
The third kind is the most pernicious — its the people who claim to be without racial bias, but on a subconscious level are biased. As a result, the same information about two candidates who are virtually identical in terms of their overall record and positions, but are of different races, will be processed differently on a subconscious level, and result in different conscious decisionmaking.
As a result, if candiate A is better on health care, and candidate B is better on Iraq, if candidate A is white and candidate B is black,, then health care policy suddenly becomes the crucial determinant in how a person vote. And if candidate A is black, and candidate B is white, Iraq becomes the more important issue.
The second kind of racist is the kind that responds to “Obama is a muslim” crap.
Its the third kind of prejudice that is the real problem, because it represents the people who are affected by “dog whistle” campaigning — and even by campaign tactics that aren’t even intentionally ‘racist.’
Clinton’s 3AM ad falls into the final category — it would have been a lot less effective if her opponent was a white male with the same record/experience as Obama, because the question being asked would “do you want an ‘unprepared’ white man making these decisions” — and white people, especially white males, would have been less affected by the question.
Neal
Ok, TZ. Maybe you did not. The Other Steve certainly did. That’s what got me riled up. He said:
I responded to him with a “Fuck You” and a “I generally like this site but god DAMN there are some self-righteous pricks on here.”
You then quoted me, and followed up with :
What am I missing?
ec1009
Snail Says:
“Obama is looking more and more like bunt toast
Is that round toast with a hole in the middle?
March 20th, 2008 at 12:36 pm”
So now lets review. Obama is not only a black muslim, secret arabic jihadist, black christion and not the good white fundie kind, but now he is also a freakin’ Jewish bagel!
BFR
John – I’m curious about one thing. How much of a deal will Hillary’s comments about mountain-top removal and the coal based economy it supports be in the WV election?
Does this help her or hurt her in WV?
Snail
BFR, do you have a source for that quote? Because as a (non WV resident) tree hugger, that is appalling. Mountaintop removal is probably the greatest environmental disaster taking place in this country right now.
Smedley
Tough titties. It wasn’t tactically smart for that hack Buffenbarger to say what he did, and I don’t hear Clinton denouncing that. None of the rednecks and old women who run across the street when they see a black guy coming are going to be voting for Obama anyway.
As for whether they’re too low-information, if they’re even smart enough to work a computer, they’re too busy looking at NASCAR standings and pinochle strategies to worry about what somebody says on some blog.
BFR
It was up on Gristmill starting yesterday:
http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/3/20/102928/047
BFR
http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/3/19/16232/9817
Was the original piece with her full quote:
Martin
Snail: link
Is WV another one of our must-win states? I’m not trying to minimize WV, but the winner in November is going to lose some states. Focusing on any given one other than the top 4-5 electorate states to make the case for Obama vs. Clinton is dishonest. In the top electorate states, Obama and Clinton fare equally well. And Obama may lose WV but win CO or WA. It’s the aggregate that counts, so make your case there, not on individual races.
Z
dslsk is correct about the South. It isn’t really ground zero for American racism any more. I’ve lived in several Southern states, and I haven’t seen the level of racism there that I have seen in Missouri or Pennsylvania. The South was pretty much forced to confront their issues with race. The Midwest and the North are still in denial about their racism.
Now it is true that the South is ground zero for refusal to separate church and state, but it seems that most Southerners, black and white, are misguided about that.
ThymeZone
Not sure what the question is exactly, and ignoring the TOS parts since he can speak for himself …
In my case I said …
“most”, not all and …
that these states were “run by morons.” Not populated entirely by morons. My state has been run by morons for many years, yet, lo and behold, I, Herb T. Zone, am not myself a moron.
No I don’t think all Southerners are morons. But I do think you might be outnumbered by them ….. donno for sure but when I see that electoral map, I think, damn ….
cleek
i love flying over WV and seeing the tops of mountains ripped off. makes me think Mother Earth has been popping zits.
Paul L.
One of our Lady of Perpetual Outrage minions just called out John C.
Republicans to be prosecuted in Ohio for crossing over to affect Democratic primary?
Well John, Here is your outrage at the Virginia GOP.
Insert Your Own NAZI Party Joke
myiq2xu
If you want to see a weird area check out the SF Bay region.
San Francisco is almost European. It’s cosmopolitan, urban, and diverse as hell.
North across the Golden Gate is Marin County, which is wealthy, white, and liberal. It’s also the home of John Walker Lindh, aka “The American Taliban.”
Berkeley is a refuge of 1960’s radicals, and is sandwiched between Richmond and Oakland, two cities that all mostly black. Richmond is more like South Central LA and Oakland like an East Coast inner-city ghetto.
At the bottom is San Jose/Silicon Valley. In between these towns are pockets of extreme wealth (Atherton) and extreme poverty (East Palo Alto.)
You can drive the freeway loop in about 3 hours at night, but during the day it could take 3X as long.
California itself is weird. At least half of the residents are first or second generation, but the immigrants come from everywhere.
We have Yankees, southerners, midwesterners, Mexicans, Japanese, Chinese Southeast Asians, Filipinos, Hindus, Arabs, you-name-it, we-got-it.
Northern California resembles Oregon, LA/SD is one giant suburb, the central coast is like Mars, and I live in the Central Valley which is agricultural like Oklahoma, only crowded and with freeways.
We have bigots and racists of all shapes and colors. Politically we have gone from blue to red and back to blue in my lifetime. (Pat Brown – Reagan – Jerry Brown Deukmejian – Wilson – Gray Davis – The Governator.)
Half my family is from Kansas, the other Oklahoma, and where they come from people never move into town, they only move away.
neil
I have it on good authority that Robert Byrd is the only racist ever from West Virginia.
4tehlulz
Last time I saw an electoral map, Obama loses Ohio, and PA and FL, but picks up NM, CO, MI, and splits Nebraska.
Hillary wins OH, PA and FL, but loses NM, CO, MI, NE.
I don’t think either won WV.
More or less, it was a wash.
Martin
MLK recognized the race condition people are seeing now.
The south has largely transformed from the state of active to passive racism and caught up with whites in most of the rest of the nation. “more devoted to “order” than to justice” seems to cut right to the heart of it, and the policies since Reagan act as supporting evidence.
libarbarian
Actually, accusing someone of saying that, when they manifestly did not, indicates that YOU are the one so obsessed with race that you see read things that are not there.
Seriously, as a general rule – defensively saying “Im not a racist” when no one called you one, is a tell-tale sign that you are indeed a racist subhuman prick.
Neal
Here’s how it went:
you said:
and what he said was:
So that’s how I took it. Misinterpreted, maybe, but do you see how I came to that conclusion?
As someone who reads this shit on BJ all the time (though I don’t post all the time), I generally agree with you on the majority of things you have to say. I’m not looking to argue, only to defend a point.
As far as morons RUNNING things – fuck, man, we can agree on that. Morons run the whole fucking country.
libarbarian
Steve davis,
Is this you?
Martin
Always the victim, aren’t we GOP? Since Obama is presumably the one who suffered and since Obama has taught voter-rights law, why don’t we just wait and see if he presses the matter. The only people that seem to be raising the specter of prosecution are Rush and Malkin and company.
myiq2xu
In the South, blacks and whites have lived in close proximity for several hundred years.
Up north and out west, blacks moved in in large numbers during the 20th Century, mostly around WWII.
When blacks moved into the northern cities and segregation ended, “white flight” began.
jenniebee
k Jen, tell you what, after we get past the primaries and we have our Wonderful Purple Glitter Dialogue about race, how’s about we try engaging in a national dialogue about gender? We could start by observing that, when confronted by a woman who does not apologize for her refusal to be bound by gender roles, and who believes herself equal to play with the biggest of the big boys, the national consensus becomes that she is cold, manipulative, an automaton, that she is obsessed with power (and puhlease, there isn’t a man or woman in Congress, let alone the presidential campaign trail, who doesn’t have an outsized sense of self-importance or who shrinks before the idea of making big things happen – it’s a job requirement), that she is, in short, unnatural and inhuman.
Because I’ve been watching Hillary for sixteen years now, and while I haven’t in that time seen anything that makes me think that she’d be just such a fantastic president that we all just gotta make that happen or anything like that, I also haven’t seen any actual evidence of her being anything like the monster people imagine that she is.
So after we finish getting all gooey about how enlightened and post-racial we are and how fantastic it is that the time there’s a Great Communicator who puts a D after his name, could we start maybe talking about how women in this country are so liberated that we can do anything, as long as the anything we want to do is supportive and nurturing and doesn’t go too far into the natural male sphere. Because that’s another dialogue that’s long overdue.
J. Michael Neal
I’m a big believer in open primaries. However, please note that no one in Ohio will get prosecuted for violating Democratic Party rules. If they are prosecuted, it will be for violation of Ohio state law.
jaime
The fact that she is a cold, manipulative, automaton has nothing to do with her being a woman.
Andrew
jenniebie, bake me a cake.
ThymeZone
I think we are in agreement here on all of your points.
Now, I do prefer Texas BBQ to Southern. Full disclosure.
dslak
If we’re going to have the “big talk” about gender, can we please do it when there’s a female candidate who got where she is on her own merits? That would be cool.
Laertes
(From Wired’s analysis)
That’s pretty weird. I don’t see that we ought to be prosecuting people based on how they vote.
That said, how did the Hillbots get the idea that these charges, if brought, would benefit Obama? The Ohio primary is over. Do any of the very few remaining primary states have similar laws?
Weird law. Gotta think about this some more.
John Cole
Yes, because Obama and I are still responsible for crafting and enforcing Ohio electionk laws. Paul L., still an idiot.
That North Carolina vinegar bullshit isn’t BBQ. There is nothing to discuss.
Jen
Uh, wow. Where the hell did all that come from? All I said was that John didn’t say anything wasn’t misogynistic.
Hillary can start that dialogue any time she wants to. I’m pretty sure if Hillary decided to devote 45 minutes to a speech on gender that the media would show up. Anyone else who wants to is welcome to as well. I’m pretty sure you could find some blogs which address those topics and start that dialogue. With that tone, though, you might find people won’t really want to talk to you all that much.
Jamey
Carolina west of the triangle: Moronville. Largely because of all the transplants from the N.E.. Less racist, but still somehow impossibly stupid. Even by southern standards.
And, because we can’t get enough “Ashliston,” I proudly present: http://www.usmagazine.com/protrait_of_a_prostitute
Thousands of pics of Spitzer’s klassy ho!
capelza
Dennis, are you talking about “Californication”? I think if WV were suddenly overrun with Californians you might hear a different tune. Watching property values double or more in a few years because of the influx of CA folks who sold their little house there for an unheard amount and came here and paid what would have been an unheard amount..which is NOT a good thing for Oregonians that want to stay in their same old house…the property taxes are killer…I think that’s the huge resentment…I know it is mine (the value of my old funky home has tripled in just over a decade..I do NOT want to sell, but the property taxes are based on my resale value, not what I paid for it.
Like McCall said in 1971:
“Come visit us again and again. This is a state of excitement. But for heaven’s sake, don’t move here to live.”
It’s not like it was a big secret that Oregonians liked their little paradise.
It was the changes that the big influx brought (there’s been a few in different periods) that Oregonians resent. Folks who moved here and didn’t try to remake the state…that’s different.
Sorry, I get defensive…
Jen
Well, I guess I’m done with defending John.
Laertes
That North Carolina vinegar bullshit is what the Gods ate on mount Olympos. Best food I’ve ever had in my life.
I don’t know why you can’t get it anywhere else.
Jen
Wilber’s ships, packed in dry ice.
Neal
I desperately don’t want Hillary to be president. I think I’m pretty clear on that. Now, to qualify that, I don’t think she is that monster either. I think she’s a bit of a shameless politician and I think her positions are poll tested and will change with the wind depending on political necessity. Her current position on the “enfranchisement” of FL and MI voters speaks to that.
I don’t like her for those reasons and for a few others…and I admittedly have a problem with dynastic rule in this country…but I don’t think any of that has anything to do with her being a woman. At all.
I really would like to see a woman president. A lot. But what I think is more important than that is the person’s ability to do the job…and I don’t care what color or gender that person is. I don’t think there should be any sort of affirmative action when it comes to the presidency. I want the best/most capable person.
I do hope to see a woman president in my lifetime. We’ll see.
myiq2xu
Oregonian = California draft dodger who ran out of gas on the way to Canada.
Neal
Them’s fucking fighting words there!
capelza
Yeah, yeah..heard that one before. Oregonian = Boy born here, drafted, sent to Vietnam, sick of hearing that joke.
Zifnab
The truth can hurt.
Nikki
HERESY!!
Andrew
Go back to your misogynist Hola Fruta.
myiq2xu
No comment:
Jen
Graeter’s ice cream from Ohio, is probably the only good thing to come out of Ohio, and since it is from Ohio, it is probably not misogynist. Also Oprah likes it. So definitely not misogynist. And John might be able to get it due to his proximity to Ohio. So he should probably switch, to get more feminist blog cred. The black raspberry chocolate chip is heaven on earth.
cleek
the pig, the chicken, and the cow have so much to give us, why limit yourself to one kind of BBQ ?
Tom in Texas
There is nothing on earth like Texas brisket.
Baby back ribs come close.
Just talked to my dad, it’s confirmed; I’m making a brisket this weekend. I’ll be generous enough to provide a recipe/review.
Here’s a hint though — real BBQ doesn’t need sauce. Screw the vinegar/tomato brouhaha. It’s in the rub, and the smoking. It takes days to do it right.
And I’m sorry, but those of you in NC haven’t figured it out yet. Tennessee does a damn fine job. So does Kansas City. I think in the end it comes down to being a part of, or close to, cattle country. To echo Mondale, where’s the beef NC?
p.lukasiak
that sounds like the SUSA poll whose numbers I’ve been crunching. (the Nebraska split is something that doesn’t come out in most polls).
And while as a snapshot in time the SUSA poll is fascinating, its predictive data is practically worthless. It was taken at almost the exact point (end of February) where Obama had reached his highest point vs McCain in the pollster.com trend line analysis, and Clinton had reached her lowest point. Obama has since lost ground relative to McCain, while Clinton has gained ground.
And as the two SUSA Ohio polls I linked to earlier show, the race remains extremely volatile. In slightly over 2 weeks time, Obama went from +10 to -7 against McCain in Ohio. Demographically, the polls are remarkably similar (most categories are the same, and any changes are +-1%… except in the “regional” demographic, where the change is larger but still not big enough to account for the Obama’s huge slide.)
myiq2xu
What about the squirrel, the possum, the roadkill mystery meat?
Martin
True, but that doesn’t describe the dynamic today. I live in arguably the poster child for white flight communities in the heart of Orange County, CA in a very GOP district with a high income barrier of entry (median home price over $900K.) While the demographic is disproportionately low for blacks, it is more disproportionately low for whites with large persian, indian, and asian populations and looking at the schools – which are the main drivers to this city, the schools are extremely diverse. We are seeing more and more gentrification in those urban areas that previously were abandoned by whites. Even areas of south central LA aren’t what you would expect. Compton is more latino than black now and economics have shaped communities more than racial issues.
But your description of the south is slightly exaggerated. While it’s true that they win for having the most geographically large area of black/white proximity, blacks and whites have lived in very close proximity for a century in places like NYC which rival the south in terms of population. NY has historically been balkanized by ethnic group and still is, but you can’t do anything there without interacting across those groups. It’s a very limited segregation and not exclusive to NY.
So I would argue that the active ‘flight’ phase isn’t really there any longer and basically ended by the 90s after Reagan was done criminalizing poverty, but the passive phase still is as there is no question that the segregation still remains and is supported by differences in policy and implementation. Economics largely serves as a proxy, however. It’s not blacks that are the concern in many place, but the economically downtrodden that we’ve now been conditioned to think of as lazy and immoral. That they happen to be minorities is supposed to be merely coincidental and not at all germane to why we put certain drug users in prison for a decade. The LA riots were a sad uncovering of the farce as I remember driving through the city while certain areas were locked down and others fully open. Any fool could figure out what the differentiation was even as we watched white kids trashing liquor stores in Long Beach. (And the image of passing a humvee on the 5 freeway with national guard troops carrying M-16s in a ready state is one I won’t soon forget.)
Neal
I think I enjoy the fights about BBQ much more than I do the Barack/Hillary debates.
John, can we have more posts about BBQ?
Jen
Martin, you’re like the normal kid being reverse-mainstreamed into a special education class. I can’t imagine why you’d like it here, but I’m happy to have you.
libarbarian
Amazingly, I totally agree with you.
Furthermore, this kind of prejudice is the hardest to fight because the people responsible often seem honestly oblivious to their “racism”. They say: “I’m not racist, I care about Health-care/Iraq” and dont seem to understand that they always care most about whatever issue the black candidate is weakest on. They also, like Steve Davis above, who apparently see people accusing them of racism and/or a predilection for “Sweaty Glistening Naked Boys” everywhere they look.
p.lukasiak
yeah, but I hear that its the only menu item at Beelzebub’s All-You-Can-Eat-And-Then-We-Force-Feed-You Buffet! :-P
ThymeZone
All Westerners know that God intended us to eat the cow.
That’s why He made them out of delicious meat.
cleek
it’s in the CookOut bag, next to the chili-fries
ThymeZone
Yes, that’s Found Meat.
Good for jerky, flavor in other dishes, gravies.
ThymeZone
Also good Freezer Meat, for when company comes over and you haven’t got your Social Security check yet.
MMM
West Virginia Cole – Love it or Leave it you Pinko
Krista
Yeah, we need more BBQ posts, and beer posts, and Tunch posts. All of this primary infighting is turning me into a veritable crankypants.
ThymeZone
There is only one way to describe good Texas brisket:
Oh.God.
The Other Steve
I’m saying it again…
I don’t like southerners. It’s something in the water down there. They’re just born stupid and lazy.
I’ve got family who moved down to Georgia. You put on your resume you are from Iowa, and down south you’ll get a job long before they’d ever hire a local. Call it affirmative action for people who weren’t born lazy.
Jen
My bracket is tied for first place so far. Tied with 21 other people, but still tied. Go me.
MMM
ITMFA
Gus
As far as barbecue goes, what cleek said. Granted, as a Minnesotan, I have no barbecue cred, but I love Texas, KC, Memphis and Carolina barbecue. Never had the Alabama style with the mayo sauce, but I’d love to give it a try.
ThymeZone
Again, Texas brisket:
Oh.God. And yes, that’s without sauce.
It can make a grown man cry.
Jen
Hm. Where’s the Original Steve? Can we have him instead?
Neal
My vegetarian fiance just doesn’t seem to understand that…and she isn’t even Indian.
Keith
Speaking of off-the-beaten-path meats, BBQ’ed wild boar is pretty good as well, as long as it’s been soaked in buttermilk to get some of the gaminess out. Plus those things multiply like rabbits and a scourge on ranchland, so you can kill a ton of them and not feel guilty about the impact to the ecosystem.
libarbarian
Non-indian vegitarian …… she’s a dirty pot-smoking hippie isn’t she?
myiq2xu
The “Jim Crow” south in many ways resembled Latin America. Racially stratified but semi-integrated.
Blacks were part of the workforce (albiet at the lowest levels) and blacks and poor whites often workd alongside each other. Many blacks worked as domestic servants in white homes. (Calpurnia in To Kill a Mockingbird for example)
Up north the black communities (prior to desegregation) were basically closed communities. Blacks lived and worked separately.
The saying was that in the south blacks could get close but not too big, while in the north they could get big but not too close.
Large numbers of blacks moved from the south into the industrial cities during WWII. But when the war ended and the soldiers returned, many found themselves unemployed. “White flight” left the inner cities filled with blacks and the loss of our industrial jobs left them poor. Detroit is a good example.
shortstop
Sure, if you think using beef for cue is a good idea.
No, the SUSA polls have them both winning Ohio. As you say, though, those polls are snapshot in time and pretty old now. Here are more recent state-to-state matchups (though not of all 50 states) from Rasmussen (who has both Clinton and Obama losing Ohio).
Note also that Obama does much better than Clinton in states in which key Senate races are occurring: CO, MN, NM, OR, NH, VA, SD. Coattails, please.
Mary
Every bit of BBQ beef I’ve ever had has been dry as shoe leather. Is it supposed to be like that?
Neal
Amen, this Steve is a fucking fucktard. I’m not returning to that argument. I think TZ and I exhausted it.
The Grand Panjandrum
IOW the Bradley Effect (or the gender based equivalent for that matter) is alive and well. I won’t argue that it doesn’t exist, I’m not convinced it will decide the election against the Democrats. Recall that Left Blogistan and the MSM is still preoccupied by the Democratic nomination process.
Once full attention is turned to the GE, McCain’s gaffes will get more attention. I believe TZ who has the goods on McCain, and has forewarned us of his underdeveloped campaign skills.
Wait a few weeks and this won’t be quite the big deal everyone thinks it is. I’m not ignoring the obvious problem either Dem will have based on race or gender, I just think McCain is going to make some unforced errors that will cost him any chance to be President.
myiq2xu
This is exactly why I think the Rev. Wright controvery will hurt Obama. It gives group 3 a “non-racist” and guilt-free justification to vote against him.
It’s called “rationalization.”
Martin
I’ve seen that reaction from a lot of groups that Obama didn’t specifically dwell on. It’s not a black/white dialogue that needs to happen but a ‘why do we constantly treat each other like shit’ dialogue.
As to Hillary, I think she bought into the sexism (I don’t fault her for it) as she’s been on the receiving end of a lot of it for a long time. I think at some point you adjust your behavior to eliminate the avenue of attacks. Since emotion is a common angle of attack, she doesn’t express it. Since emotion is also one of the things that we *positively* associate with gender as well, by suppressing it she comes off at times as not being genuine and cold.
So, her defensive move was to ‘act male’ as some blacks ‘act white’. I have a black coworker whose speech changes depending on who is in the room with her. She’s partially aware of it, but not fully. But Hillary can’t win for trying – in part because I think she has steeled herself against a level of sexism seen in the 70s and 80s which hurts her today – in precisely the same way that Wright is in part still fighting the culture of the 60s. So people today that expect women to act like women (IOW, normal) fault her for coming off cold, while others would punish her for acting that way. I think she would be better off dropping her guard, though she might not be able to do that any longer.
But JJJ hit her hard on that point – and perhaps unfairly when he called her out on her tears over how she was perceived and questioned why there were no tears when people were drowning in NOLA. It’s a fair point but also one that lacks understanding of how Hillary got here. It’s probably the best lesson from this primary of how two sides, both having been disadvantaged in one way or another end up taking each other out as a byproduct of residual rich white male dominance and each completely overlook who the real villain here is. Obama, by comparison called out the right party, but I’m increasingly concerned that most anyone over 35 or 40 will miss the message having already bought into their views so deeply.
Neal
Well, she isn’t dirty but she did grow up with a bunch of hippies. Her elementary school was called “Grass Roots” for Christ’s sake..and she does hit the weed here and there…
myiq2xu
Served with Fava beans and a nice Chianti?
The Other Steve
This is quite obviously because you are stupid and lazy and therefore incapable of responding.
Buck
To get away from you I presume?
Svensker
Any kind of BBQ is better than no cue, but… If you have never eaten at Lexington BBQ #1 in western NC, you have not tasted food that is worth driving 1200 miles for. Wilber’s is OK, in fact, not bad, but L#1 is beyond belief in sheer, carnivorous goodness.
Now if we want to talk about racism in action, you could look at what happened to Mitchell’s BBQ in Wilson, NC — a fantastic place, but competed directly with the good ole boys, and lo and behold, Mr. Mitchell, who is black, gets pursued by the local revenuer and driven out of business. His BBQ was better by far than the other guys, and his mama’s butter beans and peach cobbler were enough to make ya weep.
The Other Steve
I think it’s because they wanted to explore their inner stupid and lazy.
ThymeZone
{ sinister slurping noises }
Neal
Sigh…it was discussed…you’re ignorant. That is all.
The Other Steve
Here in Republican America, we call that Free Market Capitalism.
myiq2xu
Ahh, the dirty little secret. Racism is not exclusive to whites or blacks. Every group hates one or more of the other groups.
Here in California we’ve got lots of Asians, but they don’t like each other. We might think they look alike, but they can tell the difference.
Mexicans don’t like Central Americans, and they both hate Puerto Ricans.
I had a couple clients from Nigeria, and they feel they have little in common with American blacks because to most Africans, tribal identity is what matters (see Darfur, Rwanda)
Someone once pointed out the violence in Northern Ireland as an example of what happens when there aren’t any brown people to hate.
Jen
I’ve heard of the glories of Lexington BBQ, but it’s not on the way back from the beach, so I haven’t been. Wilber’s is definitely not the gold standard, I just know that they ship.
ThymeZone
See, this is why we kept the Union together. For the food.
Oh god I am so hungry right now …..
The Other Steve
Geez, what’s with the personal insults? I was just making a casual observation about southerners.
Jen
If everyone would take their irrational hatreds and channel them towards a rational hatred, such as Republicans, Duke, or Two and a Half Men, the world would be a better place.
Ninerdave
Along with tips please. I can do ribs, shoulder just fine. I never gotten a brisket to turn out, even cooking from before dawn to after dusk.
Neal
That’s a given. If you want good BBQ, black people do it better. Nothing racial about that statement, just an honest to god fact.
And that sucks about Mitchell.
The Other Steve
I’m not racist. I just hate southerners.
and the Dutch! I can’t stand the Dutch.
Jen
I don’t like spiders or Visigoths.
The Other Steve
Not to mention the damn Dutch!
cleek
if i’m going to the beach, i prefer King’s, in Kinston – Pig In A Puppy!
but you do get to watch the AF jets zip by, 100 feet up, at Wilber’s, so that’s fun.
Martin
I like diversity and a good fight (obvious dishonesty pisses me off something fierce though.) I’m a little upset that only myiq has had the balls to tell me to fuck off. I feel a little left out since he gets much of the love here. I grew up in NYC so I’ve long recognized verbal abuse as a positive social interaction. You know you’re in real trouble when everyone gives you the thousand yard stare which I learned to use on the homeless in the 70s.
But truthfully, I love to argue and the blog homogenization of late is a downer. You can’t properly troll the wingnut sites without needing a new account each day (fucking book burners) and you guys aren’t so polite as to lull a person to sleep.
Neal
Can we add The Other Steve to that list, Jen?
Jen
For equivalency, I guess we should find out what region of the country he is from, and just hate all people from that region.
myiq2xu
I always thought King of the Hill was hilarious.
“I sell propane and propane accessories.”
In Texas? BBQ’ing with gas? Isn’t that a crime?
People tell me I remind them of Boomhauer.
Jen
I think you just seem reasonable. Myiq telling you to fuck off means nothing more than you have posted to the comments and he wants to acknowledge that. It’s kind of like, “hi!” But I’ll make sure to attack the next time I disagree.
Neal
It’s a brilliant show. Watch it all the time. Good stuff.
Then again, I’m a stupid and lazy southerner so what do I know?
The Other Steve
LOL! you’re taking this way too seriously.
The Other Steve
Just remember. It’s not your fault.
It’s in the water.
myiq2xu
How good your sister kisses?
The Other Steve
This whole time, I thought Jen was hitting on me. Now I am starting to question that.
Cain
I totally agree, even though I’m an midwest transplant. I didn’t want the californification either. I feel sorry for those guys up in Bend. :/
cain
Xenos
Ever have dinner in a Norwegian household, then praise the hostess for her wonderful Swedish meatballs? You will get an interesting response.
Neal
No I’m not. Don’t worry. Just returning the love.
Jen
Myiq or Boomhauer?
What kind of country is this when you can only hate a man if he’s white? — Hank Hill
…and we’ve come full circle.
Tom in Texas
King of the Hill is hilarious, especially if you are a Texan. Landry Middle School, Luann Platter — the jokes are endless, subtle, and hysterical. The propane reference IS one of them, btw, myiq — all Texans know that even charcoal is a cheap substitute for wood, and propane is disaster.
Neal
God damn it, myiq. Here I am excited that we can agree on something and you have to go and be like that.
myiq2xu
Propane is for hot water heaters, central heat, gas stoves, and meth labs.
OriGuy
You left out Contra Costa, which used to be very segregated. Concord in particular used to be all white, while Richmond is still mostly black.
I think San Leandro, south of Oakland, was nearly all white, well into the seventies. Brian Copeland does a one man show about growing up black there.
History Channel Magazine had an article about “sundown towns”, where blacks weren’t allowed after sundown. In one place, they actually had a bell which rang when it was time too leave if you were too dark. Most of those, IIRC, were in the PA-IL area. Some are still all white, or nearly so.
Growing up in Indiana, I remember being told that Martinsville had signs that said “N***r, don’t let the sun go down on you in Morgan County.”
croatoan
Every northern colony/state had slavery, and there were sundown towns all over the country, mainly in the North.
West Virginia was part of Virginia when Virginia seceded in 1861, but West Virginia seceded from Virginia a couple months later and joined the Union in 1863. (I’m not sure if that’s what you meant by “Confederate defection.”)
So’s Iowa.
Z
Wow, jenniebee, lots of anger there. I’m also not sure who it is directed at. There certainly has been some misogyny in the coverage of Clinton, are you angry at that? Or at us for, majority, not supporting Clinton?
If you want that dialogue, at the risk of showing my age-ist stripes again, I’ll say this is mostly an older person and Jesus freak problem. I don’t know that many people who had a stay-at-home mother growing up. Two generations now have grown up assuming that women can survive and thrive in the workplace in a variety of fields. Sure, we sometimes run into misogynistic male coworkers, but most of them are old guys who are retiring out of the workplace, anyway. Most people, male and female, just roll their eyes at them because that sexist attitude is irrelevant and outdated.
There are pockets here and there (US Military, for example) where things are still bad. Even that is changing.
We have women governors, Supreme Court justices, Speaker of the House, CEOs, CFOs, mathematicians, scientists, construction workers, coal miners, mechanics, on and on. Their are leaders all over the world that are women. I doubt you will find many people under 40 (outside of the Jesus freaks) who think a woman can’t do a good job as president. But, you can’t assume that will translate to support for Hillary.
I can speak for a lot of my generation in that I don’t like the politics of the last 20 years. I don’t like the Clinton’s approach. I don’t like Bush’s or Gingrich’s approach. The House and Senate were civil places before the Boomer’s took over.
Martin
Again myiq is stuck in the past. German is the new hillbilly.
dslak
I wasn’t denying that Northern states ever had slavery or racism, but that these were and are seen as “Southern” problems of which Northerners don’t consider themselves guilty. Also, ‘racism’ was being used as a synecdoche for Jim Crow laws, and it seems to be a common assumption by many Yankees that the lack of Jim Crow means that their history is somehow less racist.
Soylent Green
This guy said it best.
dslak
Amen to that. You just don’t see civility like this in Congress nowadays.
Dervin
The main thing to remember about Pa is the lack of quality elected Black Leadership. You have Wilson Goode bombing out two blocks in a Black Neighborhood and still winning re-election with 98% of the Black Vote. You have John Street waiting for an iPhone and assorted criminal activity. Lynn Swann(sp?) running for the Gov on the GOP ticket. Hopefully Michael Nutter can reverse this trend for PA (and I think he has the ability to do so).
Z
dslak,
I don’t know, if they didn’t make them leave the weapons at the gate, we might.
Z
I was actually kidding about that last remark.
Z
But… we should bring back dueling. I think it would be more effective at getting rid of crappy politicians than term limits.
dbrown
Lossing WV in the election is a lot like ‘winning’ Italy in World War I by one of the two sides; the the brits knew that if they had to fight the war in Italy (note I didn’t say fight the Itanians) they would need two divisions; if they got Italy on their side, then they would need two divisons to defend it from the Germans – either way, who cares?
Tom in Texas
Well, we know McCain isn’t passing that particular CiC threshold.
John S.
I submit that if there were a serious female candidate in the race this year without the surname Clinton, they would be doing much better overall. Unless they had Penn, Ickes and Wolfson helming their campaign, too. I think those three could have sunk Molly Brown.
Sasha
No. These guys did.
Tax Analyst
And that’s exactly the point that needs to be strongly driven home, and driven home right now.
We need to take the country back and I don’t think we afford the luxury of triangulating OUR personal votes because we fear America won’t elect a black President. Unless you feel that Hillary Clinton is TRULY the best candidate and best hope of this nation you should not vote for her against Barack Obama. To be sweating “electability” in a primary campaign between two candidates who will face obstacles, either gender or race, no matter which of them gets the party nod just places us in a passive and defensive “Fear of Losing” mode.
Campaigning from this standpoint reduces our Party’s candidate in the General Election to a “Lesser of two evil’s” pose and could very possibly promote the otherwise lame and inane John McCain into an electoral winner.
I have to wait until my next AMEX billing cycle, but I’ll be making a further contribution to Obama’s campaign.
Tax Analyst
I think I saw that on the menu at Denny’s the other day. “The 3-Meat Arkansas Omelot”, maybe.
AnneLaurie
Well,okay, but almost 200 comments and nobody has thought to mention: he’s assuming that the Democratic candidate will win!
And here north of Boston I have heard similar jokes from the local cab drivers, and my response has been along the lines of “Yeah, the rich frat boys spent eight years turning a nice place into a dump, and now it’s up to The Help to come in and clean it up again, hose out the basement, fix the holes they made in the walls — ain’t that just the fvcking way of the world?”
Which leads to a mutual discussion (lament) about how the Repubs couldn’t talk any of their high end associates into running, so after letting a bunch of no-hopers act like they ever had a chance of getting pledged into the Carlyle-KBR fraternity, the Boys in Charge handed their Big Sack O’Fail over to poor old Granpa McCain. And you’d think they’d be ashamed to abuse the old bird like that, when he’s at an age where he should be out relaxing in the bass boat, but that’s Dubya’s idea of “responsibility” for ya. But then, when Old John was getting his arse beaten to a pulp over in ‘Nam, Commander “Mission Accomplished” was busy keeping the Mexicans out of Texas, and given how good he did at *that* we should’ve known what kind of a president he’d make…
I’m assuming that West Virginia has a high percentage of the Denis Leary demographic — working-class-if-they’re-lucky white guys whose deepest emotional base is Resentment. And I understand that quite of few of them, like McCain, are from my own ethnic background, the rump-Celtic-plus-Viking socio-genetic stew romanticised here in the States as “Scots Irish”. Long centuries of tragedy mitigated only by our hard-earned gifts for spite, invective, and bullshite have left us immune to the very idea of hope; what keeps us alive are our long-cherished grievances.
If your West Virginian neighbors, John, have as much in common as I think with the wiseguys I grew up with in the Bronx, they have not forgotten that FDR, JFK, and LBJ were all Democrats. They will have vivid memories of their parents’ and grandparents’ stories about the Great Depression, and are not too stupid (or too over-educated, like the whitecollar morans who believe the crap peddled by megacorporate mouthpieces like Thomas Friedman) to draw comparisons to our current parlous economic status. What they do in the privacy of the voting booth, as they would be the first to tell you, is very much their own business. But *our* business, in promoting whichever Democratic candidate wins the convention, is not to attempt the unwinnable task of convincing your cab driver that Obama’s race or Clinton’s gender should not influence his vote; our business is convincing him that Clinton or Obama, whatever their inborn liabilities, are less likely than McCain to continue fvcking up every single aspect of running our glorious American nation.
Because we are the people who live by Aragorn’s credo: “Then [if] we must live without hope — there is always vengeance.”
Tax Analyst
Balloon Juice: Commentary of, by and for those with TDD (Tact Disability Disorder).
Yeah, you’ve all been insulted. Get over it.
Tax Analyst
Amen, except for the “Two and a Half Men” thing. I’ve never watched it, but I’ve got a good friend who makes his living working on the set crew of that show.
But I’m totally with you on the Republicans/Dukian’s thing.
HyperIon
an excellent snippet from MLK quoted above about the moderate white who:
amen, brother.
so much of what has been said and written in the last several days is REALLY about getting white people to acknowledge the truth of this stmt IMO.
and Krista, I saw the first ad last nite for your country’s upcoming reality show “Canada’s Next Prime Minister”. maybe you guys are onto something. ;=)
Martin
AnneLaurie wins. That observation totally blew past me – too inwardly focused to see the bigger picture there.
ThymeZone
Only a short time ago, there were Dems here saying that Clinton was going to lose in the general due to high negatives; we needed to nominate someone else.
Now Dems are here saying Clinton is the safe choice, Obama will not be able to overcome the racial and religious negative slams.
Phooey on all of this crap. We pick the best candidate, we grab our winning issues, and we go to war with the decaying corpse of John McCain, and we win. We don’t sit around and fear the opposition.
tBone
Damn, late to the thread again. By way of quick catchup, let me just say that I hate whatever state or region you may live in, your preferred presidential candidate, the shitty “regional specialty” food that you keep trying to push on the rest of us, and whatever creed or color you happen to be.
Please don’t take it personally.
Ron Cantrell
Why are you a racist if you vote against Obama because of his ravce, but not if you vote for him bacause of his race?
ThymeZone
Nobody ever got strung up from a tree for being just like the mob that strung him up.
That’s why.
Tax Analyst
Well, you fixed “ravce”, but now you have to post again to fix “bacause”, because otherwise you will show a lack of consistency.
Now, to your inquiry: I haven’t seen that many folks here saying they were voting for Obama exclusively for his race. Believe me, there are plenty of black politicians I would not cast a vote for in a Presidential election – just as there are many white politicians I would not vote for.
I initially tended to favor Senator Clinton, but in comparing these two candidates over the last few months I have not been particularly impressed with her candidacy. Senator Obama, on the hand, has spoken directly to several key issues – not the least of which is that of Race. To discuss it in the length and detail that he did was very much a political gamble, which shows me he has the political courage to break past all the sound-bite euphemism’s that have reduced our national discourse into a Zero-Sum game of “gotcha”.
If you vote for someone other than Obama because you think they are a better candidate for the position, well, I disagree with your assessment, but you are not a racist.
I hope this answers your question.
Conservatively Liberal
Just heard a short news blurb on Olbermann about a security breach in the Obama campaign involving his passport. More will follow when Obama releases a statement.
Strange. Why would someone be after his passport?
myiq2xu
Oh yeah? Well how good does your sister kiss?
RealityCheck9
You know, it’s usually the people who profess so publicly that they are not racists are the ones that have the problem.
In addition, voting for a candidate because of race is racist.
Martin
Because ‘minority’ is not a designation of demographics but of power. There is nothing wrong with lifting up an under-represented group, but there is something wrong with holding them down. But it’s an question of exclusion. Is voting for Obama because he’s black the same as not voting for Clinton because she’s white? No. But that’s the logical fallacy that keeps getting trotted out. Funny that white people keep stepping up to the victim plate there.
But it’s also a fallacy to say that is what is happening here. Clinton led Obama in support from black voters up until the MLK gaffe, at which point it started to collapsed nationally. Don’t blame black voters for running away from Clinton because she pissed them off (a few times). Or are you blaming them for not running to Gravel?
Martin
Oppo research to see how many madrassas and training camps he’s visited?
ThymeZone
The electronic file contains personal background information.
Tax Analyst
Oh, just to add – If you vote against Senator Obama because you THINK that people will not vote for Senator Obama because he is black then you are perpetuating something that you should know is wrong.
Whoever you decide to vote for I would implore you to honestly and carefully consider what type of future that President proposes to lead us into and if it’s one you think will make for a better one than the current path surely will drag us into. I would urge you not to accept, “Trust me, I know what I’m doing” in place of an articulation of their vision of what they will try to accomplish.
I believe this upcoming election will be a watershed event in our history. I hope our collective choice puts us on the right side of it.
Conservatively Liberal
Two contract employees of the Bureau of Consular Affairs division of the State Department we fired for improperly accessing Obama’s passport info, and they said a third was disciplined for accessing Obama’s file ‘without a need to’. I wonder who they are, and if they are associated with anyone specific or if they were mining for gold in the hopes of self-aggrandizement. Something stinks here, that is for sure. This took place in January, so it is recent but it was not publicized until tonight. The State department confirms the story.
Interesting. Investigation is ongoing at the State Department
myiq2xu
Good news sports fans!
Turns out Ashley Alexandra Dupree won’t be getting a $1 million for doing a GGW video.
She already did one in 2003 for a lot less. A LOT less.
She got a T shirt for frolicking in GGW Spring Break 2003
tBone
Not nearly as well as yours, I’m afraid. Your mom has them both beat, though.
myiq2xu
The goatee doesn’t bother you?
Tax Analyst
Oh, yeah? Well, kiss my Connecticut-born, Southern California residing ass. Wherever you’re from I’m sure it’s not half as good a place to live in. Bet the food there really sucks, too.
I would tell you to eat shit…although I hasten to add this recommendation is not in accord with my own personal preference.
Jeez…you didn’t use any profanity, so I feel a little uncomfortable saying, “And fuck you and the horse you rode in on, and your friends, if you have any” – because some here might construe that as lowering the level of discourse and that would paint me in a bad light, or least it would if anyone here really gave a fat rat’s ass about what I think.
So I guess I’ll get over the discomfort if I give it a little time.
libby
West Virginia. Stop trashing it. How many other states can be proud of the progressive bonafides of both senators? Robert Byrd is an American hero – who else stood up against the Iraq war and the Bush-Cheney Pseudo-Patriot Act atrocities? And Rockefeller, within the confines of required confidentiality, tried to hold Bush-Cheney’s feet to the fire. The state is not perfect, but it IS almost heaven. I don’t remember racism, growing up there, but I do remember poverty and lack of opportunity that affected most folks. Most people I know made their own opportunities. If Hillary’s message is resonating there, it is not because the state is racist, it is because the people there, like so many others, want and need the safety net of health care and job opportunity. I am primarily an Obama supporter, but can easily live with Hillary. I hope you might see why West Virginians would support Hillary for reasons that are rational – not racist. Most of all, I don’t like seeing my home state of West By God Virginia sold short or dismissed as some pre-civil war slave empire (for those who don’t remember, West Virginia seceded from Virginia when Virginia seceded from the Union).
myiq2xu
This is getting ridiculous:
I mean seriously, WTF?
myiq2xu
Fixt
myiq2xu
In WV they can’t even spell “Klan” right
tBone
No, but the unibrow kind of throws me off.
Don’t beat yourself up. I bet someone here gives at least an emaciated rat’s ass about what you think. (But not me, you fucker.)
Tax Analyst
Outside of being slightly hyperbolic, what’s your problem with it?
Political supporter’s ARE allowed to be enthusiastic about their candidate, aren’t they?
Seriously, indeed.
myiq2xu
It’s not really a unibrow. The other side burned off when the meth lab blew up.
Tax Analyst
If you’ll give me odds I’ll take the “Under” on that wager, tBone.
myiq2xu
Unlike MLK, I’ll bet schools will be open on Barack’s birthday.
Who else was not a victim?
Barbara Jordan. Colin Powell, Jesse Jackson, Andrew Young, . . . shall I go on?
tBone
Yeah, right. Next thing you’re going to tell me that the 300 cases of Claritin-D stacked beside the anhyrous tank inside the doublewide aren’t really for her allergies.
Andrew
See Sarah Silverman, re: I love chinks.
Cain
When I think of West Viriginia, I think of guys in pick up trucks and gun racks with oil stained faces flying at high speed around turns singing “Country Roads” at the top of their lungs while blasting the song on the radio.
I would have said they also do jumps and shit but I think Alabama does that. See I get all my southern culture from the Dukes of Hazzard. I bet every county has a Boss Hogg and good ol boys!
cain
Randolph Fritz
Sympathies, John.
The Other Steve
Gee, how about I vote for the guy because I like what he has to say about issues?
Is it impossible for people to not be fucktards about this?
John S.
Thank you Amazing Kreskin.
And if Obama becomes president and actually does amazing things for this country and ends up getting assassinated by some lunatic, just how big will the pile of crow you end up eating be?
Tax Analyst
Well, these are influential people, for sure. Not victims…check. Leaders? To an extent, yeah. Viable Presidential candidates? No, not even Powell before he got suckered into shilling Dubyah’s WMD BS. King was certainly a leader to black people and he SHOULD have been considered a leader to white people…he tried to speak for all those excluded from the higher promises of America, regardless of color or creed. I think in retrospect he is certainly considered a leader now. I took his words to heart as a teen-ager back in that era, but I don’t think he was respected to the degree he is now.
Barack Obama is, after all, whether you like it or not, the embodiment of Dr. King’s dream. I would further speculate that if he were alive today Dr. King would support Senator Obama on the content of his character and the depth of his commitment to improve the lot of the downtrodden.
But that’s just my speculative opinion…can’t prove a thing and I certainly can’t link you to any endorsement by Dr. King, can I?
Now I’m not saying that McCaskill’s statement wasn’t a bit over the top – as I said, supporter’s tend to hyperbole more than restraint. I’m was more wondering if your reaction was proportionate to the level of the supposed overstatement.
Tax Analyst
Shit! I forgot to deal with this part of your comment on that last post.
OK. I’ll grant it’s a bit premature to begin Obama’s Deification, however IF he does indeed become President and somehow manages to pull us out of the tailspin we’re currently in (and that is, admittedly, a very big IF…for ANY current candidate) then you can bet your over-estimated IQ they’ll name freaking schools after him and at least include him in any President’s Day commemoration.
But that’s just my opinion, you know. Hell, maybe the quality of Presidents will improve so much in the future that whoever ends up being the 44th President will be but a mere insignificant footnote in history.
Hmmm…”President Barack Obama’s Birthday” as a National Holiday. What a weird dream that would be. Who would be silly or outrageous enough to believe that could ever happen, eh?
myiq2xu
We have recognized holidays in this country for four individuals: Jesus, Washington, Lincoln, and King.
Schools will be open.
Tax Analyst
Probably. Remarkable leader’s only come along once in a great while. Even those with potential for greatness must come along at some critical juncture in history to prove worthy of such an accolade. Our current issues, well, when you think about them are they really all that serious in relation to past problems? So maybe there’s really nothing to get excited about…we’re probably making much ado about nothing.
God, I envy your commitment to cynicism. Me, I keep holding on to silly hopes for a brighter day, though I realize it would be an extreme longshot for it to happpen in my lifetime.
I’m generally pretty much of a pessimist, but it is still possible for me to occasionally look beyond “what is” and consider what “might be”. If that sounds familiar it’s similar, but not the same as part of JFK’s inauguration speech from Jan, 1961.
Well, “Cheers”, and all that. I’m off the clock and off tomorrow so I’ll have to leave the discussion to you and others until Saturday. I don’t go on-line at home anymore…I’d never get anything done.
Toodles.
John S.
Say what you want about about myiq½xu, but he truly is the consummate cynic and has the acerbic wit to match.
myiq2xu
I posted a quote by McCaskill:
You said:
What’s wrong with it? There have been lots of black leaders who came to “the American people not as a victim, but rather as a leader.”
I can think of many distinguished black leaders off the top of my head that disprove what McCaskill said. Martin Luther King first and foremost. Love the MUP all you want, but he’s not even in the same zip code as King.
“Slightly hyperbolic?” Remember when Hillary was accused of dissing King by saying “it took a President to get it done?” McCaskill wrote King completely out of history.
To quote Bob Dole “Where’s the outrage?”
Nell
Of course the black man has suffered discrimination for hundreds of years, while the female has suffered discrimination for only… tens of thousands of years?
Maybe?
I know racism is still with us. But I suspect a considerable amount of the HRC hatred is rooted in gender bias.
Braxtonian
And she sticks the landing! 10s across the board!
And yes, I’m not there now, but as the name implies, I’m from as deep in WV as is possible to get, and from the exact ethnic group described. That is such a superb distilled expression of West Virginia history that I intend to steal it and use it as often as possible. Not to discount the deep and often open racism within the state, but an additional drag to Obama’s candidacy there is the absence of hope. It’s been an area for centuries where the good happens rarely, the bad is expected, and hope is laughed at. Things just don’t get better in WV, unless you’re a refugee from DC to the far Eastern Panhandle.
myiq2xu
There is plenty of both, and they are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they tend to travel together.
But neither racism nor sexism is the sole determining factor in how people vote.
And sometimes people say stupid shit that is just stupid shit.
Martin
You realize it was made a holiday because he was killed. Let’s not follow this thought, okay?
Temple Stark
>>King was certainly a leader to black people and he SHOULD have been considered a leader to white people
Dumb. Out and out dumb like a lot of this thread, started out that way from the post – yes, even after the delayed updates. A lot of sad echoes, here. Can anyone entertain the fact that MLK was a leader to white people? That he remains a hero to white people, as does Ghandi as does Abraham Lincoln as does Winston Churchill, etc, etc.
Frankly, as good as Obama speech was the other day, what was missing was a complete lack of awareness that a lot of whites have always supported equality. Among colors AND gender.
Martin
I suspect she means in the other direction. Not that the individual came from the viewpoint of being a victim, but that much of the public saw them as having been a victim at some point in their life. Jackson and King certainly fit that description. Obama doesn’t – it’s really not part of his story.
It’s still a shitty comment, but I don’t think she intended it as you took it.
Temple Stark
Also, is it possible to be disgusted by Wright’s comments and not be a racist. Because, coming where it was , even on Christmas DAY last year, with the authority of god, it disgusted me.
That wouldn’t be enough for me to change my vote perhaps, but if Clinton said anything seriously stupid about a “typical black person” I’d write in John Edwards. Both Clnton, Edwards, you and I – typical white people. Who knew? We all are scared of blacks and happily voice ethnic and racial epithets. We’re typical white people.
There is so much crap I this thread I’m glad I came late to it.
Temple
Martin
Huh. Looks like Hannity has misled us with his editing.
Expanded 9/11 Wright sermon
Wright was restating the position of a US ambassador with the ‘chickens coming home to roost’ bit, but the attribution got edited out. Wonder what other context we’re missing.
Shocking, I know.
skylights
“And before the controversy over Wright’s sermons, Mitrea said she was 55 percent for Clinton, 45 percent for Obama.”
I could’ve told you that. These dumbf–ks have always had a grudge against Obama, they just didn’t have any way to justify it other than his race, and now they have “The Speech,” wherein they imagine all manner of offense to The White Race. How long do we have to wait before these racists grow old and die, clearing the way for a more enlightened new generation?
bhagamu
I’ve been lurking here for a while, but I haven’t commented before. Can I just say: your updates are dynamite. **Cheer**
myiq2xu
I don’t think she really meant it the way it came out.
Neither did Ferraro, Hillary, Bill, etc, etc.
Obama missed his chance back when the media (with some urging from the Ocampaign) went bonkers over the Mlk statement by Hillary, the “kid,” “fairy tale,” and “Jesse Jackson” statements by Bill.
He could have jumped on the frenzy early and vigorously defended the Clintons, telling the press to quit looking for racism in ever word, thought and deed. He could have made Tuesday’s speech back in January and said he didn’t want to play “gotcha.”
But instead he let his surrogates push things in the media and waited a few days until he had gotten the benefit and then gave a dimissive statement like “no big deal, let’s move on.”
Even where his people weren’t pushing it he enjoyed the benefits of the “race card” meme.
Now the lap dogs have started to turn into attack poodles and the Hillbots are scouring every statement by Obama and his supporters, past and present, looking for ammo.
He could have made that speech pro-actively instead of defensively. Imagine how much more powerful it would have been that way.
Even if you don’t believe his people were pushing the race card meme, they sure weren’t trying to put out the fire. But now Obama’s house is on fire too.
myiq2xu
ROFLMAO!
The sixties live! “Don’t trust anyone over thirty” was a popular slogan of the Boomers back then.
We were “enlightened” unlike the reactionary generations that came before us. We were gonna “make war no more,” end racism, sexism, and every other bad “ism.”
Now Gen X, Y, and Z can’t wait for us to get the fuck out of the way so that they can save the world.
myiq2xu
It keeps dripping:
Martin
I agree on Hillary but she still loses for trying to target the black vote. That was just stupid since she had the vote up until that moment. And the statement was accidentally insulting on top of being a stupid move.
Bill was regurgitating Penn, and he loses for being stupid enough to repeat him. They weren’t even his words.
I think in the last two instances, Bill and Hillary are most guilty of listening to Penn. Penn is such a gigantic pigfucker that I can’t shed a tear over them getting hung by their own words or their decision to hire him. Bill has good judgement with his words and should have trusted himself. Clinton does as well, but she thought she had an opportunity and overreached. I call that a judgement issue, though it’s clear she didn’t intend that statement as it came out, and hiring Penn is a huge example of bad judgement. We don’t need more Brownies.
Power simply expressed frustration but she was out and rightfully so. I hope she can return later because she’s too good to lose.
But, Ferraro meant it. She wouldn’t have gone on every news show on the planet repeating it if she didn’t mean it and the 3 finger thing made it perfectly clear what she was talking about. Here she is now:
Now, I posted links to a slew of Wright sermons in the other thread and have shown that two of the clips need to be in context, but it’s becoming clearer that Ferraro is a bit unhinged on her critique of Wright. Bill invited Wright to the White House, after all, for spiritual advise during the Lewinski bit and had attended TUCC at least once on their travels.
myiq2xu
It’s hard to be humble when you’re Obama.
Martin
What’s your point? He was president of Harvard Law Review. You get to write your ticket with that on your resume and he knew that it was enough to overcome any problem he might have being a minority. So he was confident of who he was. What do you expect out of someone would would later run for President?
And what’s your problem anyway? Obama beat you out of a job or something? You seem to take great delight in searching for any fault that you might find. Why don’t you go and look for photos of him with mismatched socks.
Tax Analyst
Stark, I considered him a leader. And several hundred thousand people showed up, including quite a few that were not black, showed up in Washington D.C. for his march back then. I was way too young, so I only read about it in the papers. But a significant portion of the American public, egged on by idiots like J.Edgar Hoover and the like did not like or appreciate Martin Luther King.
Today I guess it would be safe to say to Dr. King is a SYMBOL of leadership to many, many people, as well he should be.
Oh, and I don’t think Lincoln was universally loved in his day, and I’m pretty sure the British weren’t particularly fond of Gandhi when he was pushing for Independence for India. Churchill certainly had a lot of opposition when he led Britain. Historical perspective spotlights hero’s and leaders for the difficult things they accomplished to LEAD us forward. None of these men accomplished their tasks easily or without vocal, bitter and sadly, often violent opposition.
Although Obama is at this time merely a candidate for President I am heartened that he seems to have inspired some of the under-30 crowd. I happen to think his presence on the scene at this stage of the nomination process is a stunningly refreshing thing, not just because he is black, but because he is saying things that no other politician has managed to utter since perhaps John F. Kennedy. This does not mean I believe he is Superman or will instantly solve all our problems if he is elected. Whoever is elected faces a daunting task. Our problems are many and there is no real thread of agreement on how to deal with them. But I know we need a more open brand of leadership because that is the only way to engage the people of this country to the point where we can arrive at points of common agreement and consensus.
I’d like to think that’s still a possibility, but maybe it’s not. You know, I’m not rich, but neither am I poor. I am not oppressed and I do not care to oppress. Even if this country gets back on track I don’t believe real progress will begin to show until after my time, but that doesn’t mean I don’t want it to happen. I believe we have an obligation to those who follow us to try and leave this world a better place. Failing that, I’m hoping that at least it won’t be a worse one.
Shit, I’m tired. I didn’t expect to be on-line this evening after I left work, but I’m somewhere that’s connected for the moment so I stopped in.
later.
Tax Analyst
That’s a priceless image, man.
Thanks for letting me log off with a smile.
Tax Analyst
That’s a priceless image, man.
Thanks for letting me log off with a smile.
Tax Analyst
oops, twitchy mouse-finger. sorry.
grandpajohn
Catsy
Look, this is really simple. Anyone twisting John’s words to claim he said not voting for Obama means you’re a racist needs to employ a basic logic filter. Not to mention learning to read the English language. Consider the following syllogisms:
1) Racists will not vote for Obama.
2) There are many racists in WV.
3) Therefore, many people in WV will not vote for Obama.
or:
1) Racists will not vote for Obama.
2) Many people in WV will not vote for Obama.
3) Therefore, anyone in WV who does not vote for Obama is racist.
The first is a logically close simplification of what John said. The second is what illiterate fucktards are trying to claim he said, and is a logical fallacy.
I’ll be so glad when this election is over and this kind of stupid bullshit will only be coming from Republicans, instead of so-called Democrats who should know better.
Longhairedweirdo
Re: the talk left response, without arguing who is right and who is wrong, you did suggest that “chief” among the reasons was racism… not merely that it would likely play a role, but that it would play a very meaningful role.
And no matter how you intended to say it, it can be seen as you claiming “well, if Hillary wins, it’s not because she was actually *preferred*, on her *merits*, but because of bigotry”.
Herm. That last paragraph is a bit of a minefield. What I’m saying is, if I were a Hillary supporter, keenly aware of what a long shot she was at this point, and truly believing that she was the best choice, and angry at all the people who’ve said nasty things about her, I could mistakenly, but sincerely, think that’s what you were saying.
LifetimewestVirginian
This whole conversation sucks. I have lived here all my life and have many black friends. I’m sure there are some racists here but I don’t know of many. There are racists everywhere in the US. WV is not the deciding factor in who is president so why haven’t we had a black pres.? Maybe because there have been only a few black men to even run. I will not vote for Barack but it has nothing to do with race it has to do with integrity (you can’t tell us you’ll do one thing and tell the Canadians you’ll do something else). One more thing I want to add is that there is alot of misimformation here. Many of the people I speak with think Barack is a Musilum and that is why most older people here won’t vote for him. You can attack that if you wish but you would’nt vote for a Rep. based on differences in beliefs so why bash those who are fearful to vote for someone with different beliefs. The fact is I’ve seen more bashing of people based on their region of birth here on this board than all the racist comments I’ve heard in WV combined. By the way it was Republicans who freed the slaves, this explains why this conversation is taking place amoung and about Dems. WV would vote for Powell today if he would have run. Also West Virginians have worked side by side with black folks longer than most other states allowed it. Poor appalachians black and white have worked in the coal mines from early on. Also the founders of black history month and Mothers Day were from WV. WV is a wonderful place to live for all people. I have so much more to say but I’ve said enough already. (My spelling sucks, so much for that college education)