The walkback on the Bosnia trip BS begins:
The Clinton campaign says Senator Hillary Clinton may have “misspoke” recently when she said she had to evade sniper fire when she was visiting Bosnia in 1996 as first lady.
She has been using the episode as an example of her foreign policy bona fides.
Roll the tapes:
Your witness, defense:
Asked today to square her recent descriptions with these accounts, Howard Wolfson, her spokesman, referred to several contemporaneous news accounts that described the region as hostile. He then added: “It is possible in the most recent instance in which she discussed this that she misspoke in regard to the exit from the plane, but there is no question if you look at contemporaneous accounts that she was going to a potential combat zone, that she was on the front lines.”
Asked at a later point in the call to clarify his comment, Mr. Wolfson said that news accounts at the time made clear that the area in which she was landing was “a potential combat zone and was hazardous.”
Four more years of defining “is” is not something we need. Just please make it all stop.
*** Update ***
The chief success of the Clinton campaign the past few months is to make many people who just a few months ago defended Hillary agree with Jules Crittendon:
It’s called Planet Clinton. Politico goes on to talk about elephants in the room but neglects to mention the biggest elephant of all. The Clintons themselves, both of them, who will fight to the bitter end, because all those negative numbers are still numbers they can turn around. Doesn’t matter what they trample in the process. Politico talks to insiders, declares the bell has rung in the mind of notoriously fickle American voters, but misses the most fundamental rule of American sports and politics, rule No. 1 in the Clinton playbook: It ain’t over till the fat lady sings. Far be it from me to defend my own wretched profession, but as collectively and individually chowderheaded as the media can be, the media also knows that rule. The media also knows a good trainwreck when it sees one, and knows no one can pry their eyes off it.
zzyzx
I’m trying to figure out how you accidentally tell a detailed story.
Twice.
Misspeaking is saying something like, “The GDP was down 5 points in the 3rd quarter,” when you meant to say that it was up 5 points. Misspeaking is forgetting someone’s name and saying someone else’s. This is what most people would call a lie.
The simple follow up is, “What did Clinton intend to say when she ‘misspoke?'” and see if it both matches the facts and could somehow have accidentally happened.
cleek
LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
ThymeZone
Okay, clearly she meant that she used Combat roach control products when she was living in the White House.
Can we all please just LEAVE HILLARY ALONE? LEAVE HER ALONE?
Geez a whiz.
Jake
I know there’s this notion that the Clintons are accomplished liars, but how is it that they seem so BAD at it? I mean, you can’t say you “certainly remember” a trip and then backtrack by claiming you mis-spoke.
Let’s be perfectly clear here. Where this leads is that Sinbad has a better memory than the Senator from NY. Fucking Sinbad.
Delia
At least she wasn’t dressed up like a fighter pilot when she told the story. At least she wasn’t wearing that ghastly yellow jacket with the black trim. I don’t know what else to say. I notice that Larry Johnson who used to run a decent blog about military affairs before he turned into a hillbot ran this story about how her escape from near death in Bosnia must have been on some other trip to Bosnia and then goes off to blame Obama for all the ills of the universe. Fortunately for Larry, he’s run this story off the front page with a lot of other stories blaming Obama for all the ills of the universe.
Studly Pantload
This is excellent news! ! ! For snipers! ! !
Dennis - SGMM
The last Democratic liar we elected lost Congress and teed-up Bush – no slouch in the lying department himself.
Have sixteen years of liars in the White House convinced Clinton that we want another one?
ThymeZone
Yes!
SA2SQ, The Presidential Edition.
Doug
I’m not sure how, exactly, but this post is nothing more than a misogynistic rant.
Brachiator
I am beginning to get the feeling that the media is keeping Senator Clinton’s campaign alive just for the sheer joy of catching her in lie after lie.
The Clintons should also have a little conversation with Al Gore about the impact of the Internets on modern politics. Not only can your lie be revealed in a matter of nano-seconds, but you can be YouTubed and Facebooked even faster than you can swiftboat your opponents.
And the saddest thing of all is that they don’t realize how quickly they have moved from being objects of nostalgic affection to objects of ridicule.
So, Senator Clinton is not only “mis-speaking,” apparently she cannot even read her own published biography (with a nod to Andrew Sullivan):
The Other Steve
I really don’t care for this story, or line of attack on Hillary. Ok, so she kind of exagerrates. Who doesn’t?
BH Buck
No. She kinda LIED.
Dennis - SGMM
Hopefully, our next president. There’s a difference between exaggerating and flat out lying repeatedly. Is Clinton exaggerating or is she misspeaking about health care and getting us out of Iraq?
Doug
If she was talking about how many shots of vodka she and McCain downed in Estonia, I wouldn’t mind a little embellishment.
But this is the creation of entirely new “facts,” and it is done in a way that is central to her contention about why she is qualified for the Presidency and Barack Obama is not.
Embellishments about inconsequential details = not so bad.
Manufactured stories about central campaign issues = bad.
John Cole
If it were just a case of exaggeration, it would be one thing. But it was not, it is not. She lied about this to boost her own national security/foreign policy bona fides at the same time she was denigrating the other Democratic candidate AND praising John McCain.
It isn’t just the lying, it is the fratricide that goes with it. Althoguh for me, lying is enough after the last 8 years.
zzyzx
I actually don’t have a problem with TOS’s, “Who cares?” attitude. If we hadn’t just spent the last two weeks parsing out of context sermons by Obama’s pastor at the urging of Clinton’s supporters, I’d feel even more sympathy. If they were important then because it would look bad in 527 ads, wouldn’t this have the same problem?
demimondian
Well, it’s clear that you don’t — rather, you merely twist and distort, as the word is spelled “exaggerate,” with two g’s and one r.
By the way, TOS, the nation appreciates your continuing service.
Liberal Masochist
Boy o boy, I thought for sure that given the conflicting stories and the video eveidence to the contrary, that she HAD to be referring to different trip to Bosnia.
I can’t wait for Ms. Automatic Delegate (myiq) to chime in on this one.
Sam
The secondary success of the Clinton campaign is forcing their supporters online to cite various members of the VRWC to sustain their talking points. Taylor Marsh linkpage:
Daily Telegraph:
http://taylormarsh.com/hot_topics.php#2155
Novak:
http://taylormarsh.com/hot_topics.php#2153
Some super wingnut website:
http://taylormarsh.com/hot_topics.php#2127
Mona Charen:
http://taylormarsh.com/hot_topics.php#2116
Krauthammer:
http://taylormarsh.com/hot_topics.php#2078
It goes on and on.
Studly Pantload
It’s plainly there; John clearly quotes from a blog entry that uses the pronouns “she” and “her,” and, thence by implication, also contains the b-word, the c-word, and gratuitous references to breasts.
Desmond
Not only did she lie repeatedly in the same paragraph, but her campaign’s defense that at least she WAS going into a combat zone, is also clearly false. She landed in what was probably the safest place in all of Bosnia, the middle of a US airbase! And this was in spring 1996, and if I recall correctly, the war was OVER at that point.
Honestly, I don’t know why the media isn’t hammering her over this bullshit.
mrmobi
TZ, have you seen the video of Lewis Black doing a “LEAVE BRITTNEY ALONE!” about Mike Huckabee! It’s seriously funny, and includes actual snot and stuff.
Jake
Liar, liar, pants suit on fire!
And really, if dodging bullets makes one fit to occupy the Oval Office, allow me to present … my mom. She got caught up in one of the many Totally Inexplicable Angry Negro uprisings that made the late 60’s so much fun.
Shit, anyone who lives in a rough neighborhood or any area where hunting is popular has probably come under fire more often than Hillary.
Buck
I just can’t help but wonder why she told such an outlandish story. She had to have known that anybody with the least little bit of inclination could have proven that the claims were pure and simple bullshit. Why set herself up that way? She had nothing to gain and everything to lose.
Has she lost her mind?
Dennis - SGMM
So that’s how you cross the Commander-in-Chief threshold: one lie at a time.
zzyzx
The real problem that Clinton might have with this is that it’s funny. People are going to want to mock this and that might give it longer legs than if she made a bigger mistake about a more boring topic.
jenniebee
Why is it that every time I see a new “zomg Hillary’s really done it now!” post I think: OK, this is it. This is going to be the irrefutable thing, that she’s really done something venal and underhanded and it’s finally going to justify everything that everybody’s been saying about her. And then I won’t see the vitriol and the spittle and keep thinking that it’s overdone and baseless and can only be explained by soft-headedness and media manipulation of a subconscious, reflexive misogyny. Because the idea that generally reasonable people who I generally, reasonably like go off their rockers when confronted with a smart, confident, powerful woman bothers me, and I’d like to not have that as my reality.
That’s what I think and I follow the link, expecting to find, at last, the clincher – the undeniable evidence that they all just sensed something that went under my radar and I find… she said there were snipers in Bosnia when, in fact, there were snipers in Bosnia, and Sinbad doesn’t remember the security briefing that was given the First Lady and somehow everybody thinks that he should and would have gotten a security briefing if a security briefing had happened, because when you’re on a USO detail, man, you’ve got access. And twelve years later, she remembers the situation as being more dangerous than it looks in a CBS puff piece. Ergo, she’s a congenital liar.
Goddamn, she’s like the walking embodiment of Rudyard Kipling’s IF. Next up: Hillary’s always acting like her shit don’t stink, but a former Capitol janitor begs to differ. Does this shed new light on Whitewater? News at 11.
demimondian
Nah, Dennis, it’s really a very simple misunderstanding. She and McCain read the the description and thought it read “to cross the *lie* which is the Commander in Chief Threshold you must…” and said “Hey, lying comes naturally to me…”
cleek
think SNL will do anything on it ?
me neither
Delia
Today: lies about Bosnia.
Tomorrow: lies about Iran.
Doesn’t sound promising.
Desmond
No, she said she was under fire from snipers at the Tuzla airport, not that “there were snipers in Bosnia”.
No, she’s a liar because she said she was under sniper fire when she wasn’t, because she said the greeting ceremony was cancelled when it wasn’t, and because she said they had to run with their heads down to their vehicles when they actually didn’t. Hence, liar.
Doug
And, clearly, the greeting and casual stroll on the tarmac strongly suggests Clinton was speaking accurately about no greeting and making a run for the cars.
Maybe that guy the Vice President shot in the face should run for President.
demimondian
Umm..and that’s going to be different from today’s lies about Iran how?
TheFountainHead
Why? He didn’t fucking duck fast enough. You can’t even get elected mayor with those kinds of reflexes!
Studly Pantload
With God as my witness, had anyone here who’s previously questioned the Clinton camp’s tactics used the word “congenital,” the Marshies would be all over that post like sharks on chum.
ThymeZone
Stories about how they’re training Al Qaeda and sending them to Iraq?
Heh.
BH Buck
No more so than the loyalists that defend her.
So, to answer your question, yes… she’s lost her mind.
dslak
I believe it was Rush Limbaugh who popularized the description of the Clintons as “congenital liars.” I don’t know if he came up with it, but I suspect he probably got it from some other party.
Dennis - SGMM
Those rockets blew crescent-shaped holes in the ground. That’s the indisputable signature of Iranian ordnance.
Jen
I’m not sure, either, but evidently it’s “media manipulation of a subconscious, reflexive misogyny.”
Good grief. It isn’t that she’s “smart, confident, and powerful.” It really is all the other stuff. If you’re smart, confident, powerful Condi Rice, it’s o.k. to hate her politics and the actions. If you’re smart, confident, powerful Margaret Thatcher, it’s o.k. to hate her politics and actions. If you’re smart, confident, powerful Liddy Dole (ok, she’s not actually that smart) it’s o.k. to hate that she is now permanently entrenched in my state like a cancer because John Edwards had to make quixotic bids for president and Easley’s too lazy to run.
Obama has lots of female support. He has lots of support from men who would love to see a female president. He has the support of my mother and mother-in-law both, who have known a greater degree of misogyny than most. My mother was told she didn’t need a college education and her parents weren’t going to pay for it as they did my uncles, and my mother-in-law was not allowed to go to UNC as she wanted because it didn’t freakin’ accept women. They both went to college anyway and are amazing, smart, confident women in their ’60s. And take it for just two examples if you like, but there is nothing softly or hardly misogynistic about the fact that they do not want to vote for Hillary Clinton.
/end rant
4tehlulz
Moar liek Iranian missiles are raining down on the Green Zone.
Please keep up.
jenniebee
This is the same kind of rationale that said “Al Gore has gone on many flights over disaster zones, and he’s gone on many flights over disaster zones with the head of FEMA, but the particular time he’s referring to here as viewing a site with the head of FEMA he was actually viewing the site alone. Hence, liar.”
Her campaign shouldn’t have run that commercial without doing better vetting and fact-checking, but plenty of people, plenty of times, make false statements without intending to tell a lie. Shoot, most people have false memories of things that they dreamed which are just close enough to real events that the dream supplants the true memory. To actually be a lie, there would have to be some motivation, some reasonable expectation that the false statement wouldn’t be contradicted, or else some reason that she wouldn’t care if it was contradicted or not. Some other person, in some other context might be justified in that expectation, but not a presidential candidate and doubly not Hillary Clinton.
Larime The Gimp
Funny how Myiq and P Luk are curiously nowhere to be seen on this one.
Or not.
Ninerdave
Where are pluk and myiq to defend Hillary against this obvious misogynistic attack?
TheFountainHead
You give me the giggles. Seriously.
Motivation: Convince people to vote for you based on this supposed foreign policy bona fide.
Reasonable expectation: None.
Reason to not care: You’re losing.
Two out of three is enough for me, and enough, it seems, for Hillary.
D-Chance.
I tried to read that blog, “tried” being the operative word. Was it my crappy computer, or is the comment thread set up so that every reply gets smaller and smaller? Who designed that site, an optometrist with an eye chart fetish?
Ninerdave
You know I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. I live in California a state that’s going to go to whomever the Democrat nominee is, and a while back I decided that if Hillary pulls this thing out somehow, I’m writing in Obama’s name. But, if I lived in a contested state, would I do the same?
Increasingly I think the answer is yes.
The Dems are going to increase their majorities in both houses, blunting Bush version 2’s power. The Dems have also shown signs lately that they are growin a spine. And really how much more damage can McCain do that hasn’t already been done. If anything, it’s just four more years before we can start unwinding this mess.
Jen
Well, this wasn’t really their thing, to be fair. Myiq came out to lob pointless insults about MUPpets without offering any substantive rebuttal or argument on any topic whatsoever, and p-luk generally came to cite data or information as evidence of something quite different from what, to the untrained mind, you would normally think the information would suggest. So with that in mind, I offer:
“God forbid anyone should ever point out to MUPpets that Obama lied about hearing crazy stuff from his preacher! Also there was that “typical white person” line! But don’t say anything about the MUP or you’re a troll!”
“The real story here is that Hillary Clinton is going to come through this even stronger for having weathered the attacks. She can survive the Republican attack machine and nothing will ever bring her down. But attacks such as these on Obama are fatal wounds. If Obama had said such a thing, he would be out of the race tomorrow because he does not know how to handle the fallout. Fortunately, Hillary is an expert at doublespeak and dissembling.”
demimondian
Where do you think you are delivering cutting quips like that? The Balloon Juice comments section, or something?
The Other Steve
Yeah, ok, maybe the timing. Although i don’t see how being under threat of sniper fire gives you national security creds.
But then the bar has been set low on that one for a long time.
Ninerdave
Thanks Jen, this thread wasn’t the same without some bullshit excuse making.
demimondian
Jen, you have a bright career ahead of you as a -soulless monster- attorney.
jenniebee
And it’s ok to hate Hillary’s politics and actions, but that’s not what I see aimed at Hillary. What I see is a strikingly anti-feminist backlash that gives conservative women a pass – much the same as John Derbyshire doesn’t think we’re ready for a non-white president unless he’s a conservative non-white on accounta the liberal kind are too uppity.
She has been the premier what-passes-for-liberal female personality in the country for sixteen years, and she has been steadily, relentlessly demonized in the popular imagination that entire time. Don’t like the way she’s run her campaign, fine. I don’t like the way she’s run her campaign (and I didn’t much care for Obama’s early attack-from-the-right strategy either, btw). But to deny that sexism is at play in the public imagination of her is to close your eyes to reality. When the businessmen’s lunch at the next table last Friday speculated over their egg drop soup that she’s fighting so hard this time because she knows it’s her last chance to run because “the hag factor is already setting in,” (no, I don’t habitually listen in to other people’s conversations in restaurants, they were just being that loud) and when 45% of registered voters doubt that their friends would vote for a woman for president, one must acknowledge that her gender is very likely a key factor in negative perceptions about her.
4tehlulz
Oh wow. Fifty-some-odd responses and no p.luk. or myiq?
Maybe they have Internet problems. That can be a problem, sometimes.
Civilized Crank
Some alert the Clinton machine… these Hillbots are defective.
Ninerdave
Insert black in there have you have Obama’s situation. There are people in this country who won’t vote for anything but a white man. It’s not unique to Hillary.
myiq2xu
When I see myself referred to four times in a thread I haven’t even commented in I know my hard work has been worthwhile.
He he he
dslak
It can’t be denied that you’re in demand. If only commenting on blogs paid . . .
myiq2xu
My reward will be in Heaven.
cbear
For those of you that don’t know: Larry Johnson runs a blog named No Quarter and is an ex-CIA agent and reformed gooper—only (as opposed to our own John Cole) the IQ transplant seems to have been rejected by the host and he’s reverted back to lizard brain mode.
The site used to be a great foreign affairs/intelligence issues blog, but has now devolved into a echo chamber of MUP hate and endless accusations (complete w/ links to any winger site or gooper comment that supports the charges) of misfeasance, malfeasance, blackfeasance, and, well, just about any feasance that is bad and evil.
w vincentz
The question is not “why” did she lie. That’s obvious.
The questions remains: if she is so willing to lie about something so trivial, when will she do it yet again on a matter of much more importance?
The answer…Hillary has about as much substance (truth, credibility) as the Bush/Cheney junta she wishes to replace.
demimondian
racist
BH Buck
So many nuts with God-complexes running around…
jenniebee
Seriously, keep thinking that one through. There was no math going into the Texas primary where Obama drops out after March 4, so even a lie just before the March 4 primary hurts more than helps her if she gets caught anytime after that all the way up to convention. And the chance of her getting caught in pretty short order in any statement that isn’t perfect and having that reported as “zomg we caught Hillary” is about 100%
So what’s giving you the giggles is that I don’t see that she’s irrational, dopey and given to wild Hail Mary passes, that being the simplest theory to explain the errors in her memory of events twelve years past. You’re right, that is funny.
Desmond
I think calling it “errors in her memory of events” is very charitable. There is a HUGE difference between getting shot at and, well, NOT getting shot at. You’d think that if she remembered ANYTHING about her visit, it would be whether or not she was in real physical danger.
tBone
A repost (with slight edits) from yesterday, because I’m a shameless whore:
-From The War Journals of Hillary Clinton, Vol. 1
chopper
what i like most is how wolfson didn’t say that she misspoke, he said that it was possible that she misspoke.
like ‘there exists a chance that she misspoke’. similar to the always-popular ‘as far as i know’ dodge.
zzyzx
I think it’s another example of not getting how the Internet has changed things. I don’t think she figured that she could get caught.
ThymeZone
Yet, you are a handsome, well marbled piece of meat.
cbear
Blue Dress, meet the internets.
chopper
and BTW, tBone, that was the awesomest thing i’ve ever read.
myiq2xu
Hmmmm?:
yadda yadda yadda
Dennis - SGMM
All right, here’s the truth: Obama is opposed to gay marriage because he has had to dodge the bullets of gay snipers.
tBone
I appreciate the compliment, but I’m pretty sure you can’t afford me, TZ.
w vincentz
myiq,
Change the subject off Hilliar to Barack? LMFAO!
myiq2xu
SF’s mayor remembers:
And don’t forget Donnie McClurkin
BH Buck
Everyone around here knows that if a snapping turtle bites you it won’t let go until it thunders.
Just seemed kinda fitting.
ThymeZone
Let’s just relax and get a spice rub.
jenniebee
I think it’s fantastic that Obama’s running. It’s historic, and I think it says great things about the Democratic party that we’re not doing the same calculus that denied Doug Wilder a shot at the nomination in ’92. (You want to blush for your party and deeply question the whole NH choosing candidates so you don’t have to thing, Wilder’s 1992 campaign would do it. In polls and focus groups, people loved him – a runaway favorite – right up to the moment they realized that he was black. His candidacy imploded before a single vote was cast. Virginia had elected him governor three years earlier – turns out the fucking capitol of the confederacy was more racially enlightened than New Hampshire.)
But the fact is that the numbers aren’t as stilted against African-Americans as they are against women. And this shouldn’t surprise anyone who knows their American history: strides forward in civil rights for women have always been preceded by extensions of those same rights to African-Americans.
Of course, the reason I defend a castrating bitch instead of simply being satisfied with being the party of kill whitey is because the white male is the jew of liberal fascism.
John Cole
And here we go again, Hillary supporters (no doubt with the wink and nod we are accustomed to from the Clinton campaign, and perhaps even started by Clinton insiders) will push the ‘Obama hates teh gays” meme for a week in another attempt to drive up Obama’s negatives to pull out the superdelegate vote for HIllary.
No doubt, assholes like the Confederate Yankee and Red State will be claiming Obama hates gays, and then Taylor Marsh and Hillaryis44 can join up with their new right-wing allies to smear Obama some more. I don’t know what will be more fun, watching the right wing bigots call Wright and Obama racist with help from these Clinton turds, or having the fucking homophobes on the right embrace Taylor Marsh to call Obama anti-gay.
Yes, Jenniebee, Hillary has faced some unfair attacks. But NOW are you beginning to understand why we are sick of the Clintons and the Clinton supporters?
ThymeZone
Sure, because everyone knows that Pennsylvanians keep gays as pets and lawn decorations.
Nothing will win over those Keystone Staters quicker than standing up for gays!
I think I see a Rick Santorum endoresement for Hillary on the horizon …..
ThymeZone
Daisy …
dai … sy …
give ……..me …….y..o..u..r..
an…….swer…………t….r…u…e…….
brain.cannot.process.
stop Dave ….
Stop …
Wilfred
Wanking. There have been exactly three black senators since reconstruction. There is only one now. How many women senators are there?
myiq2xu
Giving out Herbals again?
w vincentz
“The white male is the jew of liberal fascism.”
End of diacussion. You proved it.
You ARE INSANE!
Dennis - SGMM
They’ve been scrambling for it ever since Lieberman went for McCain.
myiq2xu
You can dish it out but you can’t take it, I see.
Tell us honestly, when did you first become sick of the Clintons?
2008? Or 1992?
cbear
I’ll see your Donnie McClurkin and raise you “The Family”.
myiq2xu
That anti-man on dog sex vote is key in Pennsyltucky.
John Cole
The first time- 1998.
The second time, about a few weeks ago.
myiq2xu
So you hate families?
chopper
i’m a white male jew. how the hell do you think i feel?
Dulcie
Nice try, myiq
ThymeZone
About two days after you turned into their sockpuppet and started spamming the blog 24 hours a day with obnoxious Clinton pimp-ass horseshit.
myiq2xu
I’m actually a cyborg sent back from the future by President Chelsea Clinton.
John S.
2008, right about the time I started to see what kind of campaign she was running and how embracive her supporters seem to be of it. And you all march in dutiful lockstep with whatever the campaign puts out as their meme du jour.
Autmoatic delegates. The ever-shifitng landscape of metrics that favor Hillary. Primaries that count except when they don’t count. And so on and so forth. The only thing I haven’t heard in weeks is why your candidate is so awesome. All I hear is why Obama sucks so bad. Just like the Clinton campaign itself.
w vincentz
When did I become sick of the Clintons?
Can I remember that far back in time?
My thoughts are otherwhere. I’ve been busy designing the Iraq “War” Memorial…The one that provides remembrances for the 4,000+ lives expended for the lies. It will be sited near the black marble inscribed V shaped one, yes, that one that’s below the ground as a shameful reminder of another quagmire wherein so many others died for lies.
The Iraq “War” Memorial will be huge. It will be above ground, white and gleaming in the sun. It will be a fountain pouring forth yellow liquid in an endless cycle.
For those that remember The Dada’s, this will be a huge urinal. Yes, a huge plumbing device to represent all the lives that have been pissed away for lies.
Their names will be incised in the white marble behind the yellow waterfalls, and of course, the names of those Repubs and Dems that authorized the urination of their souls will be inscribed around the base. Hilliar’s will be prominent, as will Dick’s, Georgie’s, Condi’s, McShame’s, and all of the other war criminals.
Zifnab
I FUCKING KNEW IT!
Xanthippas
John,
Dude. Seriously. Crittendon is a hack. A total and complete hack, and a jackass to boot. When you start citing him to support your anti-Hillary posts, you are venturing into Andrew Sullivan-ish CDS territory. Just…step…away…from…the…ledge…
cbear
Jeebus, they’re still wearing pantsuits in the future? Shouldn’t you at least be wearing a pink bodysuit or something?
ThymeZone
To make her parents look like horse’s asses?
Success!
chopper
well, to be fair we’ve heard quite a bit from clintonites as to why she’s so awesome. problem is that most of it is laughable, like the recent story of her dodging bullets with sinbad.
myiq2xu
Why am not surprised at dishonesty from an Obama troll?
You have been bashing Hillary at this site longer than anybody except TZ. Your HillaryHating was why I started defending her, which was while I was still an Edwards supporter.
Now go drink your bukkake milkshake.
Laertes
“Jesse Jackson won South Carolina.”
Dulcie
For myiq – This is a piece of the open letter Obama wrote to the GLBT community recently.
cbear
Is that you, Monica?
myiq2xu
Due to global warming all humans wear nothing but thongs. Even the very old and the very fat.
It’s enough to make a cyborg vomit.
myiq2xu
So he was against gay rights before he was for them?
Tell it to Gavin Newsome.
cbear
Holy shit, it is Monica.
mark
Hillary is the first viable presidential candidate to be a) a woman and b) the spouse of a recent president. How do you sort that out? It’s as if an alien biologist visited Earth and the first mammal he saw was a platypus.
The Other Steve
So myiq… Can you tell me when President Hillary is planning on outsourcing my job to India?
ThymeZone
Dude! From the 7 Habits of Ineffective Blog Losers:
When your argument can be basically boiled down to “Leave Hillary alone! LEAVE HER ALONE!” then you lose.
In your case that was about a month and a half ago.
You’re like one of those bugs that you keep hitting with a shoe, and it won’t die? Ever try to kill a juvenile tick by stepping on it? Like that.
p.lukasiak
“I never said we should go and try to get single payer”
oh wait… we’re playing by Obama rules, which means that when he lies, its not worth mentioning, let alone doing an entire post repeating right-wing talking points
Obama lies …. Cole ignores it
Clinton lies … Cole presents it as absolute, irrefutable PROOF that she’s just as horrible as wingnuts say she is….
myiq2xu
Friday. You and Samir. But I’m getting promoted.
myiq2xu
From the 7 Habits of Ineffective Blog Losers by Thymezone:
Fixt
ThymeZone
You two are absolutely as ridiculous as any two righty trolls that ever hung around here. Seriously.
w vincentz
Here we go…waited for this, just like I waited for the clap to arrive when I had my way with her.
GO! GO! p.luk
p.lukasiak
and thus John Cole follows the example of his MUP, and completely ignores the tough questions (like why, if Obama is so pro-equal-rights-for-gays, he had McClurkin performing at one of his rallies) and tries to change the subject to how awful anyone who supports Clinton is…
McClurkin is a dog-whistle to homophobes — Obama can “denounce” what McClurkin say all he wants to, but when he has McClurkin performing for him, everyone gets the real message.
p.lukasiak
bottom line — the MUPpets know that Obama is a liar, but don’t care. Lies only matter when they are being told by someone running against the MUP.
myiq2xu
Funny how often Obama has to denounce the beliefs of the people around him, isn’t it?
p.lukasiak
just explain the double standard to me, TZ.
John Cole
The classic Clintonian maneuver. In a thread in which demonstrable proof is presented that Clinton is lying, and everyone on the planet who is paying attention is laughing at the mockup videos, the weak spin from Wolfson, and the clear lies about the sniper fire, turn everything around and go on the attack.
It is perfect, the tried and true format that has carried them this far. Do you care to comment about the lies Hillary was caught in, that was the point of this thread, or is it too inconvenient?
Xanthippas- yes, Crittenden is a hack, but watching the Clinton supporters here turn this thread on its head into an attack on Obama, can you deny he was write when he said “The Clintons themselves, both of them, who will fight to the bitter end, because all those negative numbers are still numbers they can turn around.”
That is the problem with the Clintons and their supporters right now. They make hacks like Crittenden look right.
p.lukasiak
yeah, at least Clinton dumps people who say anything that could be misconstrued as bigoted. Obama gets to “denounce what he said” and then embrace the hate-spreader.
I mean, he even tried to get away with it with Farrakhan…until Clinton challenged him on. John thought the whole episode was funny — but if you go back and review the tapes, you see he takes the exact same tack as he does with Wright and McClurkin — twice, in fact — until Clinton forces him to actually “reject” Farrakhan’s support.
myiq2xu
Winners never quit, quitters never win.
p.lukasiak
hey, John, I know everyone is having great fun with this. But when the video showing that Obama flat out lied about supporting single payer was released, I don’t recall you featuring that here, and having fun with it…
Its the hypocrisy, John, its the hypocrisy.
Conservatively Liberal
Studly, you are spending too much time at TPM. ;)
Come on now Jen, don’t hold back. Just lay it all out so we can understand you, ok?
You are nuts, right? Gotcha.
cbear
Really? I guess that means Bill is sleeping on the couch again.
chopper
it’s almost comedy!
tBone
Next post:
Keep projecting, pluk! They can’t see you from Pluto yet.
BFR
It seems like Obama wants to leave some ambiguity in his stance towards gays, as in taking some pains to not appear pro-gay while pursuing a policy agenda that would seem to serve the interests of gays.
Clinton, on the other hand created an electability criteria – CiC threshhold – where her own qualifications are dubious at best.
I guess you can lump them together but I’m not sure why you would.
p.lukasiak
sure john. see its perfectly normal to misremember this kind of thing…. going into a war zone, being told that it might be dangerous and that you might come under sniper fire….THAT is the kind of thing that makes a deep impression on people, and leads to faulty memory of events.
Everyone’s memory plays tricks on them, when they remember stuff that happened in a way that is different from how it really happened.
But completely “forgetting” that you once stood for single payer healthcare? That’s not a memory “trick” so much as a denial mechanism.
chopper
obviously, gays need to give their support to the people that gave us DoMA.
Dennis - SGMM
And working people in the Rust Belt should definitely support the people who gave us NAFTA.
p.lukasiak
watch the video….
tBone
Jesus Christ. Personally? I think that ACTUALLY taking sniper fire is something that might make a deep impression on people, and lead to faulty memories. Cheerfully talking to 8-year-olds with your daughter standing nearby? Not so much.
P.luk: officially beyond parody.
myiq2xu
That’s the “bold leadership” thing, right?
chopper
is that why there was a different version of the story in her own book?
apparently, she misremembered it several different ways.
bull. shit.
this inflated, exaggerated shpiel isn’t new, paul. she’s been floating this turd for a while now, and the first time she floated it people who were with her on the trip said that it didn’t happen that way. did she stop and think about it, try hard to recall what really happened (or find any even publically-available coverage of the day)?
nope. she kept going with it.
ThymeZone
You, the guy who refuses to ask a reasonable question because we “won’t listen to you anyway?”
Eat me, lukasiak.
You are pimping a train wreck. You are representing a couple of people who would throw you both ends of the same rope if you were drowning. I don’t have to explain anything to you.
w vincentz
“Stance towards gays”…I’ve got to call Larry Craig, I’ll get back to you.
Ring, ring….Larry, you there?
cbear
Yeah, but with you it seems to happen on a daily, if not hourly, basis.
p.lukasiak
fixed
chopper
wow, that debate video has me convinced, he totally wanted to embrace farrakhan but hillary totally shot it down.
BFR
I don’t know that it’s ideal, but it seems like it would be a fact of life for just about any campaign – there’s always going to be a group where you need their support but you need them to keep their distance from you.
John Cole
I was in the Army for ten years. I remember when I was shot at, thank you.
keep pushing your new line of attacks, as we all see you refuse to even address the topic of this post. It is so transparent.
I swear, if I did not know any better I would swear you and myiq are from Red State and are trying to sabotage the election.
myiq2xu
I’m reserving judgment. I remember how the MUPpets jumped all over the Northern Ireland thing, claiming Hillary was lying.
Then it turned out she wasn’t.
Of course, if it turns out that Hillary told a bald-faced lie I expect joyous celebrations from the HillaryHaters (and those who only “dislike” or are “sick” of her) because they will have finally found evidence that she lied.
Like the way the celebrated when they finally caught Bill lying (about a blowjob.)
ThymeZone
Who gives a fuck? People change their minds.
Your candidate can’t even admit she was wrong to vote to authorize the Iraq war. Don’t insult people here.
What is wrong with you? If you have so little respect for the people who post here, why don’t you go post somewhere else?
ThymeZone
I saw it live, you butthead. I know what they both said.
BFR
And the Clinton administration signed DOMA into law, ne c’est pas? What’s your point? Gays are in the same boat with respect to the Democrats as the hard-core antiabortion crowd is for the GOP.
Dennis - SGMM
If Clinton had something like, “We were so worried about snipers that we ran to the cars with our heads down,” I probably would have given her the benefit of the doubt. Actually being shot at is a Big Fucking Deal, it’s the kind of life changing experience that you do not misremember.
The Grand Panjandrum
I will grant that people running for office spin. But “misspeaking” or misremembering being shot at? Uh, no. I’m pretty sure the First Lady being shot at would have made headlines. If indeed it were true; what kind of parent willingly takes their child into an area where people are shooting at you? On that basis alone Clinton should have the cuffs slapped on her and frog marched to a waiting squad car.
John S.
LOL
You can’t even keep your facts straight – just like your gal. HillaryHating? Puhlease. As much as I’d love to take credit for your behavior around here, that’s about as believable as Hillary – the war hero.
ThymeZone
I think people can figure this out for themselves, after 16 years of self-justifying horsehit from their leaders.
About the best Clinton can claim is that some of the people involved in the Ireland thing are willing to say nice things about her. But a close examination of the facts belies any claim that she did anything substantive. She had tea with the Irish ladies and got her picture taken with lots of important people, sort of like Condi Rice does, but without the security clearance or the authority.
Does anyone here think Condi Rice is qualified to be president? Of something other than the Ladies Piano Society, I mean?
tBone
I think the evidence on this one is pretty cut and dried.
Honestly, though? I don’t think it’s that big a deal, but it sure is funny, in the same way that O’Reilly’s bogus claims of military service were funny.
myiq2xu
She was wrong to trust the President of the United States to tell the truth to Congress on the most important issue to ever face any nation, the use of military force.
I was opposed to George W. Bush before he was the GOP nominee. I thought McCain was better (herpes is better than AIDS) but I still found it hard to believe that Bush would flat-out lie to the American people and Congress on this issue.
I remember that the AUMF was sold as a way to put teeth into the UN resolutions and we were repeatedly told it was not a declaration of war.
In hindsight, it is clear that Bush intended invading Iraq even if Congress had not voted for the AUMF.
Zifnab
Dude. Whatever. Bill was a fucking idiot for falling into that trap. When you’ve got Republicans sniffing up your ass on every Christmas Card and kitty treat your office purchases, why would you run off and pull such a boneheaded move?
Clinton could have walked out of office amid a cloud of GOP allegations amounting to nothing and be remembered as the first in a dynasty of reform-minded Democrats. Gore could have waltzed in to the tune of “Captain Planet” and given us 8 sweet years of liberal, intelligent policy both foreign and domestic.
But someone just had to get his rocks off.
How much you want to bet that – minus Monicagate – the Democrats could have done 500 votes better in Florida? The Clintons fucked up that one. Don’t even pretend otherwise.
p.lukasiak
Hey, I have no problem with people changing their minds. I mean first Obama was for single payer, then he was for universal health care, and now he’s not for universal health care, just mandates for parents to force them to insure their children even if they can’t afford to.
but there is a difference between changing your mind, and saying that you didn’t change your mind even though you did. Hillary clinton pointed out that Obama had supported single payer, and had changed his mind. Obama lied, and said he never supported single payer.
John S.
Ya, Hillary was vindicated on that one when the Irish came out and thanked her for ending decades of conflict…
You really need to stop getting your news exclusively from Taylor Marsh and Talk Left.
Brachiator
At least James Carville is not content to be a mealy mouth mis-speaker. He is willing to tell the Democratic Party to go to hell. Senator Clinton no doubt it proud of his directness (Carville Stands By ‘Judas’ Remark):
He also admitted that he was the model for the serpent in the Garden of Eden.
p.lukasiak
oh goody. another guy who thinks that wives are supposed to be held responsible for everything their husbands do.
Don’t you MUPpets ever get tired of this sexist shit?
hemi
I would guess that she qualifies for President of any number of academic institutions, having been Provost at Stanford, but President of anything else? Not so much.
Of course, unlike ME-FIRST (Mythical Experience-From Invented Rebel Sniper Threats), Rice was responsible for starting the largest foreign policy blunder since Vietnam, but her position was an appointed one.
some guy
I remember that the AUMF was sold as a way to put teeth into the UN resolutions and we were repeatedly told it was not a declaration of war.
Right. Because it would be so hard to simply read the text of the AUMF. Just look at how long it is:
Come to think, maybe that would be tough for someone who failed the bar exam.
John S.
Waaaaaah! It wasn’t Clinton’s fault! It was mean old George who made her vote for the AUMF! Leave Hillary alone!
Nice accountability there.
chopper
so she gets to associate herself with the good things that came out of the clinton administration, but to associate her with the bad things that came out of it is sexist.
Laertes
This defense would likely pass the horse-laugh test were Senator Clinton not in the habit of putting her husband’s stay in the White House on her own resume.
chopper
how would she even know, she didn’t even read the dossier.
cbear
Why do you ask? Are you in a cranky part of your cycle?
chopper
don’t you MUPpets ever get sick of this anti-serpite shit?
myiq2xu
Qualified? Yes.
Would I ever vote for her? No!
You are conflating objective and subjective measurements.
If we were to lay out minimal qualifications for office, a former Secretary of State is objectively qualified to be President.
I find it amusing that you keep pushing the “qualified” argument when by any objective criteria Hillary is as much if not more qualified than Obama to be President.
Dennis - SGMM
May she never have to buy a used car.
John Cole
Since Lukasiak totally and predictably wimped out and will not address this post, I will take his bait and address the Health Care issue. Simple response- I don’t think Hillary, even if she had the best plan in the world, would get anything passed. She has proven, in this campaign, to be a crappy leader.
She chooses poor surrogates, she chooses poor advisors, rather than attempting to build a coalition she attempts to burn down her oppositions, and frankly, I don’t think she has what it takes to get any major legislation through, even with a larger majority in both houses. She may be bright, she may be a very hard worker, but she is a terrible consensus builder (unless, of course the consensus is she runs a crappy and lousy campaign or she is lying about her exploits in Bosnia), and I think we have a better chance of getting meaningful legislation passed with Obama.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Lukasiak. it is about issues. With Clinton it is clear what we are going to get- four more years of obfuscation, bunker mentality, and wailing about being a victim of everyone who simply refuses to accept her divine providence.
hemi
So her 4 years of experience are good enough, but Obama’s 4 years in the senate are not? Double-standard methinks.
myiq2xu
Yes, yes he does. Every damn day.
chopper
“Now, slow down, Neddie. The home buyer’s course said always look inside the house before buying.”
The Other Steve
Why not? She’s got more national security experience than Hillary.
myiq2xu
Bill’s 2000 approval rating couldn’t realistically have gotten much higher. If he could have run, he would have cruised to reelection for a 3rd term.
NR
Hillary’s order of preference:
She has to know that she has no chance of getting #1 on the list, so she’s going all out to destroy Obama’s chances against McCain and make #2 happen.
Dennis - SGMM
And Condi can eat corn on the cob through a picket fence.
NR
Meh, the image embed didn’t work. Here’s the link:
http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chartyp8xi5.jpg
cbear
You gotta be shitting me, that woman is barely qualified to pick her own nose.
C’mon myiq, you’re not even really trying today.
Davebo
Of course not. Wives are only responsible for the things their husbands did once we’ve had a decade or so to decide whether or not those things were good for the country.
It’s like the all you can eat buffet of policy. Take as much of the good stuff as you like and leave the not so good stuff on the warming table.
And seriously, if you thought a bill titled “Authorization for use of military force” was a bill aimed at diplomatic resolutions I really don’t know what to say other than, I promise not to cum in your mouth.
myiq2xu
Lying to Congress on this issue is not only grounds for impeachment (thanks for nothing, Nancy) but is also treason.
Why don’t you go after every single Democrat who voted for the AUMF?
Could it be that it’s just an excuse?
Brachiator
Does anyone think that George W. Bush is qualified to be president?
This is the standard against which others should be judged.
p.lukasiak
1) I did address the subject of your post.
2) We’re not discussing the relative merits of the two candidates health care plans, or the likelihood of either getting passed. The subject is Obama lying about his past advocacy for a single payer system — a lie that you won’t acknowledge, let alone post a video showing the lie in living color.
As for here “choice of surrogates”, at least her campaign co-chair isn’t going around accusing Clinton of racism because she didn’t cry at Katrina, and threatening black congresspeople with retaliation if they don’t support OBama…
Oh, and then there’s McPeak, and Powers, etc etc. The difference is that Obama’s surrogates say this crap deliberately, its not a gaffe, its what they really mean.
demimondian
I’m thinking of a new term for Hillary the Hillarious: A MEFIRSTer (Mythical Experience Facing Imaginary Sniper Threats). This gives her similar CinC experience to that of GWB and RJC, explaining her comments about the CinC Threshold.
myiq2xu
Show me where I said Obama was not qualified.
Martin
That word you are searching for is ‘judgement’.
myiq2xu
Now that there’s funny, I don’t care who you are.
Ted
This much is definitely true. I love hearing all the stories about the “unpopular” Bill Clinton, when he rode a wave of 60+% approval ratings right through impeachment, and walked out of the Oval office with pretty much the same. If not for term limits, he might *still* be the president.
What do you think Bush would do just to have Clinton’s worst approval rating?
Andrei
Yes.. it’s clear. p.luk and myiq have proven that partisanship for the sake of partisanship is asinine, no matter which side of the fence you are on.
Before we had had darrell. Now we have p.luk and myiq. Same people, different side of the coin.
And the reason why American politics has been in the crapper the last two decades. If we are all lucky (or smart, take your pick), they and their ilk — both liberal and conservative — will be rebuffed this election cycle.
cbear
fixt.
Delia
Funny. I never had the least bit of difficulty with that one.
I remember I was eating lunch with a friend at a nice restaurant in La Brea, CA the day the Senate vote on this was announced. We both agreed that it was an historic and catastrophic day for the Republic, that the war against Iraq was now inevitable, and that the Senate was giving away its power to a tyrant without even a whimper. I don’t care how it was “sold.”
I have to say, for a smart lady, Hillary Clinton is either kind of dense or else she triangulates too much for her own good.
myiq2xu
Judgement is a subjective standard, not an objective one.
Andrei
Or “rebuked.” duh. It’s Monday.
demimondian
Was it funny when it was originally said of Eleanor Roosevelt?
myiq2xu
If the POTUS comes before Congress and asks for permission to use our military to make war and presents evidence to support his request, and Congress does not believe he or she is telling the truth, impeachment proceedings should follow immediately.
John Cole admits he was fooled.
Martin
He never changed his mind. He said that universal care is ideal but unrealistic (care, not insurance – people trip up on that all the time. Universal care is France and you basically bankrupt all the health insurers in one throw, Universal insurance is Clinton’s plan – with the Federal government paying the insurance companies for some smallish subset of the population)
Obama’s plan is universal in that it forces the insurers to provide coverage to everyone (even with pre-existing conditions) and with a price ceiling. That is, everyone can get insurance, but they may not all be able to afford it. Hillary moves tax money to cover those that can’t afford it. Don’t think that will get everyone insured though – there are always people who can’t afford it that won’t get the subsidy.
Where you are getting lost is on the bamboozlement around the word universal and what the ‘universal’ is being applied to – to getting insurance at a tolerable price, to getting insurance at a tolerable price with some subsidies, to getting a reasonably large amount of free care in exchange for paying taxes. The last one is what most people call ‘universal care’. The first one (Obama) is what I call ‘universal insurance’ because ‘insurance’ is something people pay for. The middle one is ‘universal insurance + tax credit’.
Clinton has NEVER argued for universal care that I know of – and I’m not sure she’s ever claimed to, but some people’s brain seems to shut off when the word ‘universal’ shows up in a speech and not turn back on for a few sentences. Universal care has been mentioned here and there by people like Obama and Dean, but never in a serious way because of the extreme pain to the economy to pull it off. The other term for it is ‘socialized medicine’.
Dennis - SGMM
I’d imagine that it’s been around for a lot longer than that. A lot of jokes are way older than we think they are, they just get tweaked for the age.
I do understand though, that Cordell Hull was replaced as Secretary of State for chuckling.
Pooh
Glad to see that reality has finally made a dent…oh wait, nope. Alternate reality day continues.
libarbarian
THIS IS EXACTLY RIGHT!!!
Its simple.
For ANY party to ram through an agenda essentially takes a near super-majority of both houses of congress as well as the presidency.
There are two basic strategies to follow if you find yourself in power with less than this. You can either (b) find some sort of compromise with the opposition and try toget what you can done now or (b) you put off doing almost anything and focus on gaining the raw power to force through an agenda without having to compromise.*
For most of the past 2 decades both parties have pursued option (b) to no effect. Call it the Schiavo-Strategy. They craft legislation that they KNOW will not pass for the sole purpose of creating a parliamentary show which they hope will allow them to paint the opposition as bad guys and win them votes in the next election.
If the strategy worked it might be defendable but it does not work! Neither party is in the position to actually get the kind of dominance they desire. It’s not going to happen. Consequently we get 30 years of dog-and-pony shows that accomplish little to nothing.
Judging by her behavior Clinton is a firm believer in this failing strategy. Obama, on the other hand, has a history of working to achieve what is possible , even if imperfect, now rather than grandstanding in the hope of one day being strong enough to not have to compromise.
* or (c) you can luck out and get a spineless opposition who bends over for you every time you say “national security” … but as that is out of your control, we are not considering it as an option.
ThymeZone
So, she (a) blows the most important decision she has ever made, and then (b) spends the next five years trying to avoid saying so.
Yep, that wins me over. I have put up with seven years of an asshole like that as president, after eight years of a pathological liar … who just happens to be the husband of the train wreck candidate you are pimping.
Sorry, I’ve had enough. Give me something else.
libarbarian
obviously that meant to read:
myiq2xu
She believed one liar, you believe another.
Fuck off TZ
Martin
Getting a hummer from the intern is pretty fucking objective, bub.
Martin
Yes, because there were 9 months to discover that lie, there were people reporting it as a lie, and some in Congress chose to believe what they wanted. But all of that is beside the point. When most dems running for re-election voted for AUMF and most not up for re-election didn’t, then truth clearly wasn’t the primary driver on the Dem side.
myiq2xu
So sexual indiscretions are the objective standard we judge all politicians by?
Say bye-bye to Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, FDR, and John Kennedy.
Conservatively Liberal
You people want to give her credit for her years in the White House, but only for the ‘good things. All of the ‘bad things’ are Bill’s fault, not hers. She lies about the Tuzla ‘incident’, and you excuse her for ‘misremembering’ little details like being shot at while in the company of her daughter. You people are blind, deaf and dumb, and that is why you support Hillary.
Lying and misrepresenting is no big deal to you people, you dismiss it out of hand and then in the next breath you pump out the latest lying talking points on Obama.
Carville must have told us the truth when he went after Richardson; you koolaid drinkers think Hillary is Jesus. She can do no wrong, thus she is your Messiah. Hell, the crazies at Hillaryis44 refer to Obama as “Satan”, and you can’t get any clearer than that.
So that is the matchup in your minds, Jesus against Satan. Fucking fruitcakes.
tBone
For fuck’s sake, Martin, now we’re going to get 50 posts detailing the links between Obama, Malcolm X, Denzel, and the Masons.
Ted
I’ll ask again Myiq, who will you vote for in the general if Obama wins the nomination? You know, since you can’t vote for him, will it be McCain, Nader, or will you skip that ballot question?
Soylent Green
Yep, praise be to p.luk and myiq — the Washington Generals of Balloon Juice.
tBone
Myiq has consistently said he’ll vote for Obama if he gets the nom.
90% of what he says is expressly designed to provoke a reaction from Obama supporters. I’ve come to believe that in reality, he isn’t half as unhinged as p.luk seems to have become.
Dennis - SGMM
I don’t believe that any of those men were caught out and then subject to a hue and cry by their opponents while they were alive.
In my opinion, Clinton handled the thing terribly. Had he resigned, thus defusing the situation and robbing the Republicans of their main issue, Al Gore would have been the sitting president when election time rolled around. Despite his lackluster campaign style, I believe that Gore would have been elected.
Martin
The problem Clinton (and many other Dems, I’m not singling her out) has is this:
If she recognizes that she was lied to, then she should renounce her vote and support impeachment (since lying under oath is impeachable – and anyone who speaks to Congress is under oath).
If she doesn’t recognize that she was lied to, and we all recognize that she was lied to, then what does that say to her ability to judge what she is told?
If she recognizes that she was lied to (as we recognize) and doesn’t renounce her vote, then what is her rationale for that? The only rationale I can see is that she’s trying to protect her voting history by trying to walk the grey line between right and wrong here.
Can someone point out a consistent line on her AUMF vote?
Ted
Not buying it. He’ll vote for McCain. It’s what all the rabid Hillary supporters say they’ll do. Kind of an insight into their political objectives, too. They’re not Democrats. They belong to the Clinton Party.
myiq2xu
Since tboner did it earler:
myiq2xu
STFU – do I cock-block your game?
PaulB
Considering that Clinton wants to get the credit for things her husband did and for things that happened while she just happened to be in the neighborhood, I’d say that’s a fair standard in this case.
cbear
Very true. He also has the saving grace to (usually) not take himself, or anything else, too seriously.
tBone
What do you call hiding your mom’s car keys, asshole?
Delia
Well, I wasn’t.
And, more to the point, neither was Robert Byrd.
myiq2xu
If Gore had done a Tammy Wynette and stood by his man we would be arguing whether 16 consecutive years of Democratic Presidents was enough.
Doug
I think that’s AA’s new slogan.
I seem to recall Robert Byrd making some pretty powerful arguments back in the day. Of course, he agreed about the whimper —
PaulB
Yup. Classic troll behavior specifically designed to garner outrage, all while he giggles at the reaction he causes.
Dennis - SGMM
Not sure about that, I seem to recall Bush harping on “restoring honor to the White House.”
Martin
The? No, an. Sorry, but the hummer moved Clinton into the not re-electable column for me (if he could run again). The lie made matters worse, but I didn’t think it rose to the level of impeachment. A simple censor from the Senate should have sufficed.
It wasn’t that it was a sexual indiscretion – it was a managerial indiscretion. Clinton would have been fired from any (non elected) public sector job over that. I should know, I’ve had people in the public sector fired for similar things.
That indiscretion showed that he can’t keep his personal needs outside the bounds of his professional responsibilities. That, by the way, is precisely what defines a spy. To have that happening at a high level of government is universally bad because you never know what personal need will compromise what professional responsibility once you recognize that this individual is capable of breaking that barrier.
myiq2xu
Property protection. Do you have any idea what impound fees are these days?
PaulB
A damn good reason to not vote for Clinton, then, wouldn’t you say?
Delia
Well, Obviously Hillary wasn’t paying attention to anything Robert Byrd said. After all, he’s just some old guy from a small state that doesn’t count.
PaulB
For me, the problem with the affair was the sheer stupidity of it. Under normal circumstances, I could care less whether a president takes one, two, or a dozen mistresses. I’ve never seen any correlation between personal indiscretions of that type and professional responsibility and performance.
Under the circumstances that Clinton faced, though, as the most-watched president ever, with literally hundreds, perhaps thousands, of individuals and millions of dollars devoted to the effort to bring him down, and an all-too-compliant press willing to go along for the ride, the affair was mindbogglingly stupid.
Martin
The media is doing this wrong. (I just got back from 4 days of camping, so the news passed me by) If it was a misremember, it wouldn’t be that she was shot at on that trip when she wasn’t. It would be that she was shot at on some other trip. If she comes through with a trip to somewhere in Europe where she was shot at, the media are going to look (once again) like fucking morons.
If there was no other trip, then you pound the shit out of the lie.
PaulB
Not in hindsight.
myiq2xu
Um, no I wouldn’t say that.
demimondian
Sheesh! You guys are just now catching on?
Myiq1/2urs has been playing you all like fiddles.
PaulB
The first “threshold” thread, where we discussed that Clinton silliness — the claim that she and McCain had crossed the CinC threshold, whereas Obama had not.
PaulB
Well, sure, but that’s because you’re a moron.
myiq2xu
Well he certainly did thast, didn’t he?
Conservatively Liberal
The subject WAS Hillary and her lying about her trip to Tuzla. But as usual, people like you have to come in, ignore the topic and rant about Obama some more, then accuse someone else of changing the subject.
There is no way of holding a rational discussion with a Hillbot. They are programmed using Clinton Logic, and they live in an alternate reality that is all their own. The only way you can talk with one is if you are programmed accordingly. In some respects, communicating with a Hillbot ls like trying to interface a computer with a stump.
It is a waste of time.
myiq2xu
Jeebus Dennis, what is a salty grunt like you doing with a bunch of sackless pussies?
Voting for Obama, okay, but you’re hanging with the wrong crowd.
PaulB
Not everyone. And not all the time. I still loved that exchange I had with him where I pointed out that a hell of a lot of us had figured out that the war was a mistake well before the war. Myiq wanted to pretend he was a lone voice howling in the wilderness and he threw a hissy fit when it was pointed out to him that he was hardly alone and it was hardly a wilderness.
jake
They’re … dead Jim!
Dennis - SGMM
Participating in one war left me with an aversion to ordnance as a tool of diplomacy. We figured out once that it cost our outfit roughly $2000 (Price of a new full size Chevy at the time) for each confirmed kill. Personal experience suggested that they would have taken up Capitalism for half that. If the bastards aren’t sinking our ships and shelling our coastline then figure out some other way to handle it.
myiq2xu
You lying piece of shit!
I never claimed I was the lone voice, but it was a wilderness.
Strangely enough, I don’t recall any of you bashing John Cole for being wrong, even though he was fooled by Bush’s lies too.
John, Hillary and Obama are all right about the war now. Hindsight is always 20/20. And I know some of y’all are lying mother-fuckers because if everybody who claims they were against the war back in 2002-03 really was against it, we never would have invaded Iraq.
At least John Cole is man enough to admit what he stood for five years ago.
Martin
Forget what I said before about the media doing this wrong. I just read Clinton’s statement trying to piece this little abortion back together – either she’s lying or she’s learned how to create her own reality. Neither one is good.
BH Buck
Nope. Just lying.
John S.
Poor, poor myiq½xu. His meltdown begins in earnest (along with Hillary’s — coincidence?).
I find it terribly sad, though. Someone as funny and smart as him going down the path of partisan blindness and abandoning reason altogether.
I truly hope that come November, the p. lukasiaks and myiq½xus of the world can be at peace.
John S.
What. A. Load. Of. Shit.
Unfortunately for those of us that were, we were represented by politicians that could give a flying fuck what we thought. How many millions of ostensibly anti-war voices were silenced by Hillary Clinton’s vote? And how many millions of others by their senators?
Hell, we voted for Democrats en masse in 2006 on the platform of ending the war. A majority of Americans want that. And the politicians still don’t give a fuck what we think, so the war continues unabated.
Asti
If it was such a combat zone, why did she take Chelsea with her? Does she care so little for her daughter that she felt it was okay if Chelsea got shot and killed?
I saw this story on Kos recently, I saw the pictures, Chelsea was there and standing out under the clear blue sky.
John S.
CBS says Hillary is totally full of shit.
And they have the video to prove it.
I wonder why a majority of Americans say that Hillary lacks honesty is untrustworthy.
Martin
Meat shield. I wouldn’t have faulted my parents either while I was in those awkward teenage years.
Asti
Strangely enough, I don’t remember you being on this blog when we were bashing John for being wrong. While we were much relieved that John was starting his tranformation from Republican to NOT Republican, we all watched with some disdain and called him on it when we felt he was wrong. Of course, Asti wasn’t here either, but that doesn’t mean I wasn’t here. Perhaps you were here, under another name, and you’re lying your ass off too!
tBone
John took plenty of shit before coming to the light. He doesn’t get bashed now because he admits, with no prevarication, that he was wrong.
Oh, and because he wasn’t a fucking Senator and didn’t have a vote on AUMF. That’s another little detail to consider.
Damn it, I fell for the bait again.
PK
Hillary’s plane took sniper fire on a trip to Bosnia and no one except her remembers it! The media didn’t cover it? Can you imagine the media coverage if the plane carrying the wife and daughter of the president was shot at!
Maybe they were shot at and there was no ceremony at the airport, but then, they were abducted by aliens, who erased everyone’s memories but hers. She is the only one who knows the truth! Why won’t anyone believe her!
Now if only there was an explanation for the video…..!
bob
John was wrong then and now. He doesn’t know why he’s against the war. NOBODY with his lack of critical thinking skills should be teaching children. Hey, John, close your blog, put on sackcloth and ashes and beg forgiveness, you bush loving son of a bitch. How’s that for getting on John? Quit Roger Simon’s pajama’s if you’re now a liberal, why dontcha? Fucking redneck with a phd.
ThymeZone
A lot of us were yelping about the damn war back in 2002. Trouble is, nobody was listening.
Conservatively Liberal
Shorter bob: I have a big mouth and when I open it to speak, nothing comes out but brown noise and a foul stench.
John Cole
I actually like him. He is angrier than me and makes me seem calm by comparison. He comes by and does an explosive drive-by every few days, then won’t be seen or heard from for a couple days and then, out of nowhere, erupts volcanically on someone. Sometimes me, sometimes TZ, sometimes Dug Jay.
I support this.
ThymeZone
Um, no. Wrong. Congress alone has the power to declare war, it does not surrender that power because the president asks them to. Congress has the responsibility to get it right.
Congress abdicated its responsibility, and then weaseled out of the war responsibility by creating this horror called AUMF which is not constitutional by any stretch of the imagination.
Congress uses the dodge to put the onus on the president to get it right, which is completely outside of the war powers as defined in the Constitution. The fact that the two branches, and the people, go along with this dodge does not make it legal, or proper. It’s wrong, the vote was wrong regardless of the facts concerning Iraq, the congress cannot defer to the president, it is responsible for making the determination and must do so on its own authority. What’s more, even a cursory examination of the facts surrounding Iraq would have cast doubt on the Bush-Cheney scam.
The whole thing was bullshit, and Hillary Clinton failed to do her fucking job. She went along to get along, and she knows it, and has never had the guts to say so. Fuck her and her “experience” line of crap. That’s like a bank robber saying she has experience with law enforcement.
MBL
I’m fairly certain that the literal largest anti-war protest in the history of the human race was held on the day that we invaded, or close to it.
Please don’t pretend that the national media, much less the Bush administration, gave a fuck about anything the people had to say on whether we were going to invade or not.
AkaDad
I’m not too concerned about Snipergate. I don’t think Republicans will make this an issue. They understand that politicians make mistakes, and if Hillary gets elected, I doubt they’ll endlessly run campaign ads calling Hillary a liar.
Xanthippas
I guess. But frankly, writing a post like this one and then watching the Hillary supporters come a’runnin’ is like putting out fly paper and saying “See, look at all those damn flies!”
I guess I just don’t think what she’s up to is all that bad. It just seems like hard-nosed politics to me, and I really wouldn’t expect any less from her. Come July I may have a different opinion if she’s still around, but it’s still April and we still have some primaries left, and I don’t have a problem with her hanging around to see if she can pull out the hail mary. And anyway, it’s not like she gets a free pass from the media on stuff like this Bosnia trip, the media’s desire to see a “trainwreck” notwithstanding.
Splitting Image
“Strangely enough, I don’t recall any of you bashing John Cole for being wrong, even though he was fooled by Bush’s lies too.”
Actually, I remember calling him a batshit-insane Republican once. Since he’s admitted that’s true, I see no reason to belabour the point.
There is a moral in there somewhere. I think.
Tax Analyst
Well, I’m way late to this party, but this is the funniest fucking thing I’ve read in ages. tBone, if I wore a hat it would be off to you (hmmm…I’m not sure that came out right, but WTF, I’ll leave it in).
But I was all ready to write-in Sheryl Crow for President until I got to the sad part about her demise…sigh…they’ll never be anyone like her again, although since the story is all bullshit I guess there never really was anyone like her in the first place.
Maybe one day, after Hillary serves out her two terms as CIC, of course, they’ll make a TV series about her National Security/Combat Zone exploits…sorta like that old show where Robert Conrad played Pappy Boyington.
Or maybe not. Maybe they’ll just make fun of her on an episode or two of SNL.
For those of you tracking the subject I’ll nominate Hillary’s free-wheeling account of her Bosnian Combat Encounter in the category of “My Favorite Mistake”.
Every day is a winding road…indeed.
John S.
True, although I wasn’t enitrely failed by my elected representatives.
Bill Nelson voted for the AUMF. I started disliking him then and have had plenty of reasons since. Robert Wexler also voted for the AUMF, which I was somewhat surprised at. I was really proud of the way he handled himself during the Clinton impeachment hearings, especially since he was a fairly green congressman. He has called his 2002 vote for the AUMF a ”mistake,’ and his voting record has been strong since.
Bob Graham voted against the AUMF. I met him when I was a kid, and he was a geniunely good politician for whom I was happy to vote.
cbear
Anybody know where John Cole’s bio is posted?
Conservatively Liberal
Shorter John Cole: I love everyone now that I am a Democrat!
;)
Sorry, I could not resist…lol
tBone
Next to the return of Battlestar Galactica next week, there is no TV show I look forward to more. That would be awesome. And it would finally give Sinbad a chance for a big comeback.
demimondian
As a rule, since so many of us work to protect our “real” identities, we’ve tended to be pretty respectful of one another’s privacy, and that’s included John, Tim, Michael, and Tom. I don’t have any authority, of course, but I’d be happier if we kept it that way.
cbear
Petticoat Junction meets McHale’s Navy?
Asti
Is that you Karl?
John Cole
I have never posted a bio. I am just some idiot with a blog who is frequently wrong.
Asti
John Cole’s bio can be found posted somewhere in a university in West Virginia… howzzat?
Asti
No, you USED to be frequently wrong, now you’re frequently more right, but sometimes just not completely on top of stories. I can’t blame you for that, I can’t remember a time when there was so much bullshit going on at once, who can keep it all straight? I can’t fault you when few of us can keep it all straight.
cbear
And I have absolutely no desire to delve into anybody’s private life. I was simply curious about his, and others, references to his military service and the oft-repeated references to his educational position. I assumed these facts were posted by John himself at some earlier date.
My apologies if I was mistaken.
demimondian
No, Friedrich, it isn’t me. That’s him.
Asti
Ahahahaha! That’s a good one “demi”! ;)
demimondian
Absolutely.
Like any evolving conversation, we’ve said a lot of things over the years that this salon has been around, even though they’ve never been collected into one place. It’s more a collection of “known facts” than a single document. So, it’s a known fact that TZ lives somewhere in AZ, and that JC is on the faculty at UWV, and the Tim F. is a scientist of some unspecified flavor somewhere in Pittburgh.
cbear
OT-
Just came across this funny statement from Michael Dukakis:
Sure would be nice if he were right, although I have my doubts.
Neurome
Clinton Points Up Fighter Pilot Experience
Conservatively Liberal
Shorter Michael Dukakis: You ever hear what cats sound like when they are mating?
So that explains the ‘Democrats are pussies’ meme. ;)
TenguPhule
Is it fucking September yet?
Asti
No, now go back to sleep!
Is this the reason why I keep hearing that song “Wake Me in September” long after September has come and gone?
ThymeZone
Yes, near Bumble Bee, AZ.
Asti
Okay, I have bad memory for crappy top 40 music:
Asti
TZ, you don’t have to do that, demi said it was okay to keep our personal info as our own bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzness!
Conservatively Liberal
They are referring to the Bosnia story as “WhopperGate” at Kos. Here is a pic that someone linked to, it is pretty good for a laugh.
WhopperGate, I like it! I bet Mikey don’t. ;)
Asti
Mikey is dead, he ate Pop Rocks and it killed him.
The Other Steve
I’m currently posting this message in my mothers basement under heavy sniper fire.
You guys just don’t know how dangerous the world is!
Asti
TOS, you and JeffLieber both ;)
ThymeZone
At least we don’t have a hive mentality!
Asti
That’s a nice try honey, but, I think something’s missing. ;)
Laertes
Fine. So you’ve said one thing, ever, that wasn’t completely retarded.
You’re still an asshole.
Cain
I think all of you are missing the obvious. Myiq2xu is really Mark Penn. Either that, he’s a victim of a vulcan mind meld with Mark Penn. Either way, you need to think he is Mark Penn and let loose your inner hate.
Love,
cain
myiq2xu
You do realize that there were two elections between the AUMF and 2006?
BTW – How did Obama’s trips to the former Yugoslavia and Northern Ireland go?
Besides living as a young child in Indonesia and that trip to Africa he’s embarrassed to show pictures of, what’s on his foreign policy resume?
myiq2xu
Uh-huh:
There’s more. There always is.
BH Buck
You know, if McCain somehow manages to win this November, and Clinton runs in 2012 like some here have suggested, I vow here and now to do everything in my power to see to it that woman fails. Even if it meant yet another four years of McCain, Hillary won’t be president. (Not if the above conditions are met, I mean).
Xenos
Shorter myiq2xu:
Ignore that mountain range – look here at this molehill. If you put your head down on the ground next to it, it reveals itself to be bigger than the mountain range! You can’t even see the mountain range hidden behind the molehill!
John S.
Commander in Chief of propaganda reporting for duty!
There’s more. There always is.
John S.
The Commander in Chief of propaganda contradicts herself in one pass!
‘We shouldn’t change the rules mid-game, unless it benefits my camapign.’ And she wonders why a majority of Americans find her dishonest and untrustworthy.
over_educated
I have been ruminating on this situation a lot lately, and I think I have come to the point where I really cna’t blame Hillary: I blame the superdelegates.
The whole reason the democrats set up this ridiculuous system was to prevent this very situation, where we have a front-runner and a rival who is not going to win, but the race is close enough for the tival to stay in until convention and in the process tear the party apart.
The problem is, that the system was designed such that the superdelegates were inteded to help push the establishment candidate over the top, because of course, the establishment candidate SHOULD be winning. This cycle has shownt he weakness in the system: if the non-establishment candidate takes the lead, in general, the superdelegate population is too craven to do what it needs to do to pivot to the general election.
So the result is the vast majority of superdelegates sit on the sidelines (except for a few courageous ones like Murtha and Richardson) and watch the party get torn asunder. A special place in Gehenna will go to folks like Edwards who won’t pick a side because it would endanger his “elder statesman” status.
At this point I would just like the superdelegates to come forward and end this. Either go with Obama and end this bickering or go with Hillary and deal with the fallout. As always, Democrats: Profiles in Courage.
cleek
300
Shygetz
I find it amusing that the defense towards Hillary’s apparent lies is that she has lost her grasp on reality. Dishonest or delusional…hmmm, tought choice. And, if she even thought that Bosnia was such a dangerous war zone, why did she bring along Chelsea? I mean, Sinbad I can understand, but your own daughter?
rachel
Tonight we blog in Hell?
myiq2xu
From the MyDD link:
Of course the Obamaniacs say this isn’t true, Obama did not change his story because he knew about other comments by Wright, not the ones in question.
But that begs the question – what did Wright say in those “other” statements Obama admits he was aware of? How many of those other statements were there? Obama gives a speech to try to settle this issue and admits he knew Wright for nearly 20 years, but says the statements in controversy are not an accurate picture of the man.
Two days later Obama’s campaign releases a picture of Wright shaking hands with Bill Clinton, as is that makes things equal.
I recall that debate – anyone who didn’t know about Rezko (I didn’t at the time) would think poor Barack barely knew the man. Turns out they had a long, close relationship.
Then Obama’s campaign produced a picture of Rezko shaking Hillary’s hand, as if that made things equal. Sound familiar?
As for the recommendations – is this some of the superior judgment that Obama has in place of experience?
myiq2xu
Remember the howls when the Big Dawg said “I did not have sex with that woman?”
Then there was good ol’ G-dub, who, after spending a good part of the 2000 campaign traveling in the Enron corporate jet courtesy of Ken “Kenny-boy” Lay, responded “Ken who?” when asked about Lay’s arrest.
myiq2xu
From The Confluence:
Riverdaughter (aka Goldberry) is a recovering kossack who wouldn’t drink the kool-aid.
chopper
i can haz whopper?
over_educated
Yes myiq, a long bitter nomination fight really is int he best interest of the Democrats….
myiq2xu
Y’all feel free to quit whenever you want.
“If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.” – HST
myiq2xu
U can haz royale with cheese
cleek
i hope he’s at least getting paid for all this shillerly.
Xenos
Get out of the kitchen?
WWHST do?
ntr Fausto Carmona
Holding the election hostage. How classy.
over_educated
I almost hope Hillary does pull off a superdelegate coup… so she can be crushed in the general election and a stake can be driven into the heart of another Clinton presidency once and for all. The sad part is 3 months ago I would have happily voted for her.
myiq2xu
Y’all are the ones worried about losing and talking about quitting.
And since you’re gonna blame Hillary if Obama loses in November she only has one choice – win the whole fucking thing herself.
over_educated
Oh, we aren’t quitting, we are just getting mad. Everytime the Clinton campaign does something outrageous Obama gets a 35$ check from me. We just want this sideshow to be over as quick as possible.
Of course the good of the party really is secondary to the good of hillary Clinto to you, isn’t it?
Xenos
I nearly voted for Clinton on Super Tuesday. Voted for Obama because my kids wanted me to – at a basic level they did not trust Hillary, and it appears they picked up on something I missed.
In six weeks Bill and Hill have given me CDS. I am instantly changing the channel whenever they come on, because I just can’t stand the sight of their faces – a reaction only W. has been able to provoke in me so far. Well, Nancy Reagan, too.
myiq2xu
Wrong – Hillary is the best candidate for the party and the country.
Xenos
Clinton IS the party to those people.
MoDo had it right some 12 years ago:
Le Parti, C’est Moi.
Without a functioning, democratic Democratic Party, this country has no future.
over_educated
So if that means causing a civil war in the party and/or torpedoing our chances in november, so be it?
John S.
Why can’t you see that you poopyhead?! Why, why why?! It’s Hillary’s turn — don’t you understand?!
Now I know what throwing a temper tantrum on like lloks like. Thanks, myiq¼xu!
John S.
Why can’t you see that you poopyhead?! Why, why why?! It’s Hillary’s turn — don’t you understand?!
Now I know what throwing a temper tantrum online looks like. Thanks, myiq¼xu!
I hate uneditable posts…
myiq2xu
A few months ago we were united and Hillary was the frontrunner.
So who’s dividing the party?
Xenos
Could it be the person who is losing, but conducting a scorched earth campaign?
myiq2xu
What, exactly, is Hillary doing that constitutes a “scorched earth campaign?”
Xenos
What have we all been discussing over the last few weeks? Do you have amnesia? Have you been kicked in the head by a horse?
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Do you mean at some point earlier in the primary season throughout which Obama has consistently held a lead in pledged delegates, from the very 1st contest on? Or does A few months ago mean as in before the Iowa caucus, as in before any actual voters had a turn to actually, you know – vote?
Whoa! My think my cynicism meter just pegged a red line.
Now there’s some Stalinism you can xerox.
Comrades! It is no accident that…
Gus
Even Taylor Marsh conceded that Hillary fucked up with the Bosnia thing. Granted there were lots of “to be fair” and other qualifiers in the post. Some Hillbots in the comments will not give up, though. It’s amazing to see people who seem to be convinced that Hillary can do no wrong. I know there are MUPpets who are the same way.
Desmond
I’m sorry, but this is just bullshit. Why even have a primary campaign if you think the initial frontrunner is entitled to win, and actually having a contest is just going to divide the party?
Hillary is dividing the party by fighting to the bitter end even after she has practically no chance of winning the nomination. Her continued candidacy is only delaying the start of a national general election campaign.
myiq2xu
Discussing? I’ve seen a lot of factually deficient hyperventilating by the MUPpets.
I’ve also seen a lot of mudslinging from the Obama campaign.
myiq2xu
Does cognitive dissonance hurt?
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
It all makes so much more sense if you understand that Hillary is not actually trailing by an insurmountable margin in pledged delegates, because, umm, well, uh… because pledges don’t count!:
I think Dems need to start coming to grips with the idea that Hillary will still be running in November as a Lieber-candidate, even after Obama has been picked at the convention by the majority of the delegates. The denial goes that deep.
I wonder what astronomy is like, in a Hill-io-centric universe, where the Sun, the planets and the Oort cloud all revolve around the Hill.
Desmond
What are you talking about? You said Obama was “dividing the party” by….well, by attempting to become the nominee. Explain why the division is the fault of the guy who’s winning by a nearly insurmountable margin, and not the fault of the woman who will almost definitely lose, yet is continuing to campaign while also praising the Republican nominee.
myiq2xu
When all else fails, make shit up.
myiq2xu
I’m talking about two paragraphs that are completely inconsistent with each other.
over_educated
No myiq, they aren’t…
There is a diffirence between declaring yourself a frontrunner before a single vote is cast and declaring yourself a frontrunner near the end of a primary process.
HIllary was NEVER a “frontrunner.” She NEVER had the lead in wither pledged delegates or popular votes.
Desmond
No, my first paragraph was about the beginning of the campaign when all we had to go on was speculation. The second was about now. I assume you’re trying to say that the situation Obama is in now is the same position Hillary was in before the primaries started, and that Hillary is being no more divisive now than Obama was back then, but that is completely false.
The primaries are all but over; much has been decided. When Hillary was the front runner, the delegate count was limited to superdelegates. But she has never been the frontrunner in elected pledged delegates. Never.
It’s hard to say that the party was “united” before the primaries even started, because no one had a chance to vote on it. Now, most Democrats have voted, and thus far, their choice has been Obama. I ask again, just who exactly is dividing the party? The one who has been winning all along, or the one who is stubbornly holding out?
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
myiq inadvertantly discloses the HRC campaign strategy:
Hey, if it works for Hillary, why can’t I play? Or are you saying that I haven’t crossed the threshold of Bullshitter-in-Chief yet?
The Other Steve
Looks like the media is starting to turn it’s scrutiny on Hillary campaign tactics. I saw a couple of stories last night about how Hillary is trying to divide the party.
Not good for myiq’s sanity. Is he going to lose it like p.luk?
demimondian
Nah. TOS, MyIQ has been serving his nation with distinction for the last several weeks, in much the same way that you have been. He will merely find some other means by which to serve.
I fear that he will turn to arguing in favor of voting for Nader, just to infuriate me.
myiq2xu
In November I will be voting for the same person I always planned to vote for.
The Democratic nominee.
over_educated
Well, then, welcome aboard the Magical Unbity Pony! We have pancakes and kool-aid in the back…
tBone
Nah, myiq is crazy like a fox. He just wants to see how many heads he can make explode before the nominee is decided, then he’ll (hopefully) redirect his trolling talents on McCain.
Original Lee
Hi! My name is Original Lee, and I’m a registered voter. I have been paying attention to the Democratic primary season for three months. Despite heavy provocation, I have not thrown anything at the TV this whole time, although I have uttered the occasional primal scream. I haven’t been this frustrated since the whole Schiavo mess. I would like to thank John Cole for this blog, for it helps me remember that I am not alone.
Seriously, though, I am increasingly frustrated with this campaign. It’s as if we’re trapped in a movie, where we voters are the kid or small animal with the key to the treasure chest, and the candidates are the adult who has to wheedle us into giving them the key. Depending on the movie, the adult does one of three things when kid or small animal doesn’t immediately see the logic in giving up the key: 1) pitches a fit and tries another line of attack that contains a variable relationship to reality (Clinton); 2) threatens that something very bad will happen to the holder of the key at some unspecified date and/or beats up on kid or small animal (McCain); or 3) patiently explains the mutual benefits resulting from the adult using the key and promising future rewards with variable tangibility (Obama). With plot choices 1) and 2), the adult in almost invariably up to no good and promptly reneges on everything, while in plot choice 3), usually everything turns out OK, although not always as predicted. If the primary is in our state, we’re in the movie, but otherwise we’re watching it and screaming at the screen.
PaulB
The same thing that’s on Hillary’s.
PaulB
Yup, which is why so many of us are irritated at Clinton, since it was bleeding obvious that what was happening was horribly ill-advised. She’s never addressed her lack of judgment adequately.
Tax Analyst
Ummmm…”McHillary’s Compulsion”? …
“Ms. Hillary’s Compulsion”?
Something like that.
Or maybe just an updated version of the old-old TV Game show, “To Tell The Truth”. Remember? You had 3 guests, each representing themselves to be a particular person of some exceptional or at least strange accomplished. The panel of 3 celebrities/sorta celebrities would take turns asking questions in rotation to try and deduce who was the real deal.
Just Some Fuckhead
TBone, I posted your “War Journals..” comment over on Matt’s Yglesias latest Sleep-Deprived entry and credited you. You may want to go over and take a few bows.