I am tired of talking about the primary, so here are some random thoughts I had during the last episode of John Adams:
1.) One thing I absolutely can not watch, and for some reason they insist on showing in every period piece that features war, is amputations. The thought of not being anesthetized, held down with a leather strap in your mouth while someone slowly saws off your appendage with an unsanitary and probably dull saw gives me fits. I have to change the channel. Somewhat related, I can not watch executions.
2.) The scene where Adams is at the dinner table in France, and is getting increasingly agitated while they are chattering idly well dressed to the nines and feels like he is in a surreal moment, reminds me of how I feel about the Democratic party. Are you all insane? Why the fratricide? Why are you doing this? Just stop. What the hell is wrong with you people?
3.) Everyone is so dirty. I seriously could not handle never showering. I remember going weeks in Kuwait without a shower, and then we would shower by dangling containers of water off the M1 gun tube. It sucked. I need my morning blast of scalding hot water and firm washcloth with clean soap.
Consider this an open thread.
*** Update ***
4.) How could I forget no painkillers or effective medicine, especially after my ear infection last week…
sean
forget the amputations and the lack of showers. try cutting your arm and spreading someone’s smallpox pus on the wound. now that’s livin’!
pharniel
no more keys for just about everything
mt hijal prolly needs it but 2.4 is upon us.
in other, related news, wife decides maybe now is time to kill internet and cable.
sparky
let’s not forget dental hygene, or the lack thereof. imagine what that diet, smoking, and not brushing for 40 years would smell like.
myiq2xu
Cities with no garbage disposal or sewage systems. Cholera epidemics every summer when the water table dropped and sewage leached into the drinking water.
stickler
Well, John, regarding points 1 and 3, you should be aware that medicine and hygiene have come a long, long way in the last couple hundred years. Hell, George Washington almost certainly died not from infection (probably diptheria), but from the massive quantity of blood his doctors drained while treating his (last) illness. One source I remember reading said they drained over 60% of his blood volume.
I think the doctors back then usually kept their saws pretty sharp, though, so amputation was probably much less unpleasant than it appears on your TV. Hollywood overdramatizes everything, you know.
Filth used to be a constant human companion, and it was almost certainly worse in European societies (like the American colonies, of course) than in, say, Muslim societies. Ben Franklin was a big fan of “air bathing,” which mostly meant holding his arms out straight, and turning slowly in a breeze — while nude. What effect this actually had on his BO is best left to the imagination.
Here is an article from the Journal of American History discussing cleanliness and bathing in 18th and 19th century American society.
Dennis - SGMM
Leave us not forget: only salting and pickling for food preservation. I wonder how many people in historical times died from simple food poisoning.
Martin
Executions should be as public as possible – pre-empt every TV program on every channel. If this is what we want as a society, then let’s be fully aware of what it is that we are advocating.
myiq2xu
One of the reasons spices were in demand – to cover up the taste of spoiled food.
Ever wonder why the spiciest foods tend to come from the warmer climates?
Shinobi
In those days men were real men, women were real women and little furry creatures from alpha centauri were real little furry creatures from alpha centauri.
PigInZen
How the hell were you ever a Republican? You’re such a pampered priss you probably drink latte.
salvage
While I cringed at the amputation scene Franklin and Lady Wrinkly Hag soaking in the tub was what really heebied my jeebies.
sean
martin – i had that exact same thought while watching a show on the science of crucifixions this weekend. the public should know what the government is doing on their behalf. same reason i feel the ban on showing the coffins of fallen soldiers should be lifted
Martin
Back in 2000 someone did a study which showed that engineers have contributed more to health than physicians over the previous century simply based on improvements in water quality, waste management, and food production.
RSA
On point 3: I remember reading somewhere that perfume was used by the aristocracy back in the day not to hide their own odors (as we modern folks might naturally presume by analogy with antiperspirants and deodorants), but rather to mask the stench of everyone else around them.
Also on point 3: I spent a couple of weeks traveling through east Africa some time ago, and one of the things I vividly remember was finally getting into a room that had a tiny trickle of hot water coming out of the faucet, barely sufficient for a sponge bath–but I was happy then. Good God, I am an effete first-worlder.
myiq2xu
If you want the death penalty for its deterrent effect, it needs to be public, not secret.
Half-time at an NFL game would be a good time and place, and the mobs would love it. Let the condemned prisoners fight to the death, winners get to live another week. Kinda like the good old days of the Romans.
John Cole
Oh, I agree, completely. In fact I know I have stated as much several times here.
I am also vehemently anti-death penalty. Always have been.
Stimpy
Speaking of 19th century historical fiction, I am plowing through the wonderful Patrick O’Brian books on Audible.com. If you are not familiar, these books deal with Captain Jack Aubry as a sea Captain during the Napoleonic wars. Great stuff. Highly recommended, if you are into that sort of thing. My observations:
1. Medical procedures at sea was scary scary stuff. The cure was usually worse than the disease. I mean, what made them think that prescribing mercury was a good idea?
2. I am amazed what people will eat when pressed. Yechh.
3. After listening to that 19th century prose for hours at a time I find myself saying “Really? I must say!” and “Capital!” more often than is probably necessary.
myiq2xu
That’s what the scented hankies were for.
Perhaps that explains the popularity of snuff – numb or kill the nasal passages.
Scrutinizer
Nah. Surgeons took pride in how fast they could cut off a limb. Even with a dull saw, you have to figure that the diameter of a bone isn’t all that big. Cut through the flesh and muscle all the way around the bone with a scalpel, a couple of strokes with the saw, hey, presto!
The really nasty thing is that they had no notion of cleanliness during surgery at all, so usually the same instruments would be used on a bunch of people, one after the other.
Dennis - SGMM
You wouldn’t need to preempt the other channels. Just add a phone-in lottery to select who gets to say “Do it,” and the son-of-a-bitch would be bigger than “American Idol.”
Dug Jay
.
Sorta like a Clinton/Obama debate….
Halteclere
Well, after we took down a civilization due to lead pipes a couple thousand years ago, we were bound to start getting some things right.
(Yea, yea I know – lead pipes weren’t THE reason for Rome’s fall.)
Martin
And myiq is right to one-up it. Mass executions at the Superbowl would be appropriate. If it’s a deterrent, it needs to be very public. If it’s a form of social justice as advocates insist, then we should all happily bask in the warm glow of justice taking place.
(And in case my position is lost – I too am vehemently anti-death penalty.)
Scrutinizer
Stimpy—
That’s Aubrey, dude, not Aubry.
Are you listening to Patrick Tull’s narrations? ‘Cause his are by far the best.
I usually wind up saying “There’s not a moment to be lost!” Or “—name—, there you are!”
carsick
On #2:
Will Rogers observation still holds true today and maybe always.
“I’m not a member of any organized political party, I’m a Democrat!”
Joshua Norton
If I need an injection of American history, I usually watch the DVD of “1776”. Not only did they get the Declaration of Independence signed, but they did it all with an nice little song and dance. And no amputations.
(Plus I prefer William Daniels who already owns the role of John Adams as far as I’m concerned.)
John S.
The making of perfumes began in ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt, although it is almost certain they did not create it to cover up body odor as they were generally far more hygienic than Europeans. Egyptians also used cosmetics regardless of gender or social status for both aesthetic and therapeutic reasons.
Ninerdave
I can do fake violence. Don’t have a problem with it, but as soon as it’s real…
My wife, a nurse likes to watch surgery shows. I last about two minutes until I run cringing out of the room. Seriously how she handles blood, guts, puke and poo is beyond me.
Stimpy
This is what comes from listening to a book and not reading.
*sigh*
I am particular to Simon Vance. It was an arbitrary choice on the first book, and now on the seventh book I don’t think the books would make sense with another voice for Jack or Steven.
RSA
As much as I agree with this, I can’t really claim to be consistent: anti-abortion and PETA people want the same kind of thing for their respective causes. Yuck.
Jill
Don’t forget the blood-letting!
trollhattan
I think the problem with this, if you will, is the twenty-eight percenters for whom televised executions would be the bestest thing evah. Fox would run with it.
For some reason I’m reminded of Robert E. Lee: “It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.”
Aren’t the only Western nation with the death penalty?
myiq2xu
Steel-cage deathmatch?
Dork
They spliced scenes from Gitmo into the JA special? What gives?
Ted
Imagine that. An old-school conservative who doesn’t trust the government with the power to execute people. Unlike the current variety (read: wingnuts) who worship the infallibility of the state like it’s Jesus.
Joshua Norton
If it would put an end to all this silliness, I’d buy a ticket.
Porquin Panko
Those O’Brian books are infectious. If I read/reread 2-3, I start using “For all love!!” instead of FFS.
Punchy
In likewise related news, maybe now its time to kill wife? ;)
Martin
The anti-abortion are arguing from a totally different perspective. Nobody argues that abortion is a social benefit. In fact, they argue just the opposite, that it’s an individual necessity and one that should be minimized. But the anti-abortion people aren’t anti-abortion – they are anti-sex. Their opposition to birth control is proof of that.
I’m more sympathetic to PETAs view, however. I’ve wondered how our society would change if you couldn’t buy any kind of meat until you have shown proof that you have taken that process from pen to plate. No McNuggets for you until you’ve killed a chicken, cleaned it, cooked it, and eaten it. Just once in your life. Same thing for each meat group – beef, fish, etc.
I wonder how the American diet would change if we had a closer sense of where our food comes from? I don’t advocate this, but it’s an interesting thought experiment of how society shelters us from things that are unpleasant. I should note that I think Dirty Jobs is one of the most enjoyable shows on TV.
jon
I can’t watch anything involving eyes. Cut at almost anything else, but leave the eyes alone please. I’ve seen people and animals and exposed innards and castrations and bones twisted this way and that and poking out of misshapen legs and Rotten.com’s worst photos and many other things, but leave the eyes alone!
As for executions: they should be televised. And I’m against them because I don’t want to trust the government with my own life. Why so many conservatives (and many others) who won’t trust the government not to be in charge of their healthcare, gun registration, education, or social security think the government can be trusted with their lives is beyond me.
Of course, televising executions might actually humanize the condemned. And the last thing we want is that, since only Jesus and the evil get executed. One is perfect (and recovered handsomely) and the others are scum. No actual people get harmed here, ladies and gentlemen.
myiq2xu
From Bartcop:
The Other Steve
I don’t have a problem watching heads chopped off, blood splattering from multiple bullet wounds and so on in action movies.
Watching a car accident, or surgery… even if it’s fake, like Nip/Tuck. I have to turn away.
Krista
God help you if the guy before you needed an operation on his hemmorhoids!
myiq2xu
Women with full-monty body hair.
Scrutinizer
I listened to Tull narrate Master and Commander, then Vance for Post-Captain. I found that I liked Tull better, mostly because he brought more life to the action scenes. I’m on my second run through the audiobooks, and I may shift over to Vance to see whether I like him better this time through. There was another guy who narrated some of the books. O’Brian liked him best, because he brought almost no inflection or drama to the reading at all. Seems that O’Brian felt that prose should be read dispassionately, in a matter of fact manner. Which goes to show that O’Brian was a little nutty sometimes. Can you imagine 16 hours of Post-Captain read in a virtual monotone? Not to mention the other 19 books? Save me.
demimondian
I’ve recently had reason to learn about a relatively unusual blood disorder called “polycythemia vera”. It’s mostly interesting by virtue of its primary treatment: phlebotomy.
Yes, you read that right. Today, in 21st century America, we treat at least one illness by bleeding its sufferers.
BH Buck
John, your point about fratricide couldn’t be more true. Republicans may give the indication they’re about to experience a melt down, but in the end, they do stick together.
That is their strength. We could sure use some of that right about now.
myiq2xu
Coultergeist’s new book
Martin
Executions aren’t terrible. They are invisible. That’s the problem. I should note that war has become invisible as well.
And let the 28%ers drive Fox News to do pre-game shows every time an execution comes up. It’ll make it easy for the remaining 72% to discount any moral stand they try to take. Plus, I think it’d soon become obvious that it isn’t ‘execution hour’ but ‘execute the black guy hour’ when the recounting of the crime that led to the sentence plays out.
Krista
Body hair isn’t dirty. It’s failing to wash body hair that makes one dirty.
k
All Spin Zone is calling for a truce. You in?
BH Buck
That, and they also take voting seriously.
Delia
Well, it’s true pain management could be a problem in the 18th century, for toothaches as well as earaches. But there was always laudanum, which would have handled your earache nicely and probably left you with an ongoing addiction, just like Samuel Taylor Coleridge’s.
smiley
Leeches!
Martin
I’ll take free thought over authoritarianism any day, but the party leadership could afford to take the broad view and step in and break up the fight when one of the contenders is on the ropes.
Brachiator
I kinda find some of this stuff fascinating because it reminds me of how recent some medical advances have been. Better surgical techniques, but above all, the development of antibiotics during and after WWII led to a huge decrease in amputations related to infections in wounds.
Death from food poisoning was not particularly common. I recently read a paper about 19th century food production that noted that often there was less of a lag time between when food was pulled from the ground (or the animal was milked, slaughtered, etc.), and when the food was prepared and consumed. And as you note, salting, pickling, brining, etc., was very effective in preserving food.
And just as many general medical advances were the indirect result of dealing with war casualties, mass production of preserved food was similarly related to the task of feeding troops. The practice of sealing food in glass jars originally came about as a means of supplying Napoleon’s troops, and was later superseded everywhere by tinning and canning foods.
As others have noted, executions used to be hugely popular. And not much of a deterrent. Pickpockets used to make some of their biggest hauls while attending the flogging or the hanging of pickpockets.
A Fox reality show like “American Executioner” where viewers could text in their “death fave” — guaranteed hit.
Here’s an odd bit of historical concurrence, courtesy of Wikipedia:
libarbarian
I lost most of my sympathy for PETA – at least until it gets out from under the thumbs of nuts.
The worst story I heard, still trying to track it down, is that a local PETA chapter went out adopting animals from people under the pretense of giving them a good home and then killed them.
Their justification: People “owning” animals is slavery and its better to die than be a slave.
Digital Amish
Shower tip. Lose the washcloth. My wife turned me on to those woven nylon gloves you get at bath shops. I think they call them ‘exfoliating gloves’ or something. Holy shit, it’s like using a brillo pod on your body. It may look a little ‘teh gay’ but man what a scrub down.
Krista
Yes, those are great. And if you’re all winter-dry and flaky, mix together olive oil and sugar into a paste, and scrub yourself with it while you’re in the shower. Just make sure you give the tub a good wash, or else the next person in there will slip and break their neck. But your skin will be soft as a baby’s arse.
zzyzx
18th century? I’m having trouble remembering how I survived before the Internet.
Svensker
Actually, one of those old truisms that is not true at all. Spices in the West were extremely expensive and people who could afford spices could afford good quality meat. And they would certainly have known the difference — nothing quite advertises itself like meat that’s gone off.
Spices WERE used to help preserve meat, along with salting, pickling and drying. Most spices have fairly strong antibiotic properties — which is why oil of clove is still used in dentists’ offices — and spices also tend to repel insects and vermin.
MJ
I think that is understandable. Why don’t you do some blog posts about something else? I few posts about Tibet? Well perhaps that wouldn’t cheer you up. You are long over due for a post on beer. There is nothing like a nice cold one to ease the pain of the primary debacle. I recommend some Old Brown Dog Ale.
Punchy
Fixed.
/snickers
HumboldtBlue
“There’s not a moment to be lost!” Or “—-name—-, there you are!”
“Killick! Killick There! If that coffee isn’t on the table by the turn of the glass you’re name won’t be Preserved for long!”
OK, first off, if you haven’t READ the series you must stop listening, NOW! Go get the books and savor them. That is some of the best written historical fiction I have ever come across.
Jack and Stephen are two of the most intimately drawn characters of any work, and the ancillaries, like Bonden and Tom, and Sophie’s Mother, Diana, and on and on — are beautifully weaved in and out of the narrative.
I’ll never forget leaping from my recliner less than 10 minutes into that enormous piece of crap movie based on the series that annoying Aussie actor starred in, what dreck, what unholy dreck.
I’ve re-read the series three, if not four times, and I still pick up Post Captain just for the hell of it.
LiberalTarian
I just got done reading about 30 undergrad papers discussing the effects of raw sewage contamination on drinking water (still common in many places around the world). Aside from the cholera, hepatitis and typhoid, the parasitic infections are enough to thoroughly gross you out.
I am in the camp that says sewage treatment plants are the best thing ever, with drinking water sanitization a close second.
Don’t even GET me started on arsenic, nitrate, and oil spills (the other 50 papers). ;)
butters
I though that bit with the smallpox vaccinations was rather disturbing. Talk about fear of needles…. “Listen folks, we’re gonna slice your arm open and mash this fresh gooey smallpox puss from that almost dead guy into the cut…… and by the way, we’re using the same stick for everyone. Whose first?”
Run away! Run away!
Notorious P.A.T.
Shorter John Cole: thank goodness for the Enlightenment.
Krista
Oh Punchy, Punchy, Punchy. If you stepped away from the porn for 5 minutes, maybe you’d realize that most women aren’t round-the-clock perfectly smooth and hairless from the neck down.
/snickers right back
Royston Vasey
Seeing it’s an open thread, here are some photos (take your minds of politics for a minute or two) for you all to peruse…..
Here are some shots of West Virginia
John, Do you live near any of these shots? – looks like a very nice part of the world.
Whilst you’re looking, you might as well check my neck of the woods over in NZ.
HumboldtBlue
Oh, and an added benefit of reading the books is all of the cool sidebar books that come with it. Like a “Sea of Words” describing and defining what the hell they were talking about, particularly as it relates to sailing a ship.
There is a companion musical CD as well, so that you can hear the Corelli that Jack and Stephen enjoyed so much, as well as the bawdy songs sung in the gunroom and the shanty’s the crew sang.
Add to that a glossary of uniforms, ranks, and how the Royal Navy operated, an explanation of the weapons etc. etc. etc.
There is even a cookbook companion so that you can cook up Jack’s favorite suet pudding, the spotted dog. It’ll teach you how to make grog and all of the other wonderful delicacies they subsisted on.
Krista
Royston, I think you forgot your first link. The shots of New Zealand are gorgeous, though. It seems to be such varied land — no matter what kind of landscape moves you, you’ll find it there.
myiq2xu
Last week John gave a good example of how to admit a mistake.
This week, someone else shows how not to do it. From Whiskey Fire:
Props to John, slops to MM
cleek
JC, your server hates the internet.
LiberalTarian
Speaking of regrets,
From AK-47s are turning up more in US.
:(
Andrew
There’s a difference between how things are and how they should be.
Stimpy
That would be great. Cause, from what I can tell, very often great stretches of the book are filled with dialog like:
“Sheet the ta-gallents” or “The deck was ship-shape, in a bristle fashion save for the slab-line-fo-ward” or “the topsells a-lo and a-loft”
They are forever a-lo-ing and a-lofting the topsells. I mean seriously, can’t you pick one and stick with it?
I’m exaggerating a bit, but seeing the spelling and having a definition on the same page would be teh awesome.
myiq2xu
So Canadian women have chest and back hair?
I suppose it’s a useful adaptation to the climate but . . .
Krista
LOL myiq. Hardly. Although I’m sure there might be the odd woman with chest hair, I’ve never seen any. I was thinking more of the average woman who slacks off on the leg shaving and bikini waxing during the winter.
myiq2xu
Oh. I thought we had solved the mystery of Sasquatch for a moment there.
LiberalTarian
Dude. I would like to hunt down whoever decided women should shave and strip him of his genitals. I’m lucky to be fair, but I hate hate HATE doing it.
And, think of all those plastic razors in landfills. Gah.
Royston Vasey
West Virginia
Trouble with the server earlier meant I didn’t paste this link.
That and the fact the original was missing a quote in the HREF. Doh!
HumboldtBlue
Well Sea of Words is definitely for you. In fact, the first time I picked up Master and Commander, I tried reading the first chapter or two and was completely befuddled. I tossed the book aside, having given up.
About two months later, desperately seeking something fresh and fun to read, I gave it a second chance, and from that day forward, each Friday I would stop by the bookstore and buy the next installment of the series.
Pablo
Doctors in the Civil War took great pride in how fast they could amputate a limb. They were timed, and bragging rights went to the swiftest. There are quite a few cases where the physician actually cut off their own fingers during the amputation.
Delia
This was the Enlightenment.
stickler
Krista:
Think, too, about just how recently women were expected to shave their legs, etc, at all. Hell, women weren’t even supposed to show their ankles a hundred years ago. No need to shave that which can’t be shown. Imagine explaining leg-shaving (let alone waxing elsewhere) to some peasant woman in 1880. She’d think you were insane.
(You’d probably have to explain what a safety razor was, too.)
Shem
Neal Stephenson’s “Baroque Cycle” books (set in the late 17th/early 18th century) include an absolutely scrotum-shriveling scene where one character is “cut for the stone.” You think amputations are bad, consider having a gallstone removed without anesthesia…
I work for a medical library, managing their historical collection, and we have a wide variety of disturbing antique medical instruments. If I ever want to really horrify someone, all I need to do is show them one of our 18th-century tooth keys (used for pulling teeth in the days before dental forceps) and explain its use.
scrutinizer
It’s worse than you think.
Spelling: Topgallants Pronounced: t’gallants
Spelling: Studdingsails Pronounced: stu’n’s’ls
Spelling: Forecastle Pronounced: fo’c’sl
Spelling: Boatswain Pronounced: bosun
Spelling: Topsail Pronounced: tops’l
It gets worse. What the hell is a cross-catharping, anyway?
HumboldtB’s suggestion of A Sea of Words is a great one. I read that, and then found a copy of Seamanship in the Ages of Sail by John Harland, which told me more than I ever wanted to know about shiphandling, including sail plans, rigging, ground tackle, sailing by and sailing large…those things were complicated. The Gunroom is also a great resource for question like: “So what did Stephen do a good thing or a bad thing in the cricket match between the Leopards and the Cumberlands?”
Krista
Probably not, my friend. Women have been shaving, waxing and depilating their legs, armpits, eyebrows, whoo-hoos, heads, and everything else, at various points throughout all of known history. The ladies of Louis XV’s court were known to follow today’s trend of waxing off all of their body hair save for that on their head their eyelashes and their eyebrows.
The peasant woman of 1880? She probably wouldn’t have shaved or waxed, but she probably would have heard of it being done.
HumboldtBlue
Here are two sites that might help you get started, particularly the second site listed .
http://www.wwnorton.com/POB/pobhome.htm
http://www.patrickobrian.com/
Stimpy
So THAT is what a “stunsil” is. Cool. Most of the others I could reason my way through it. Not that one.
Pelikan
For me the worst part of the Baroque Cycle was the bit with Isaac Newton poking around in his own eye socket with a needle to see how squeezing the eyeball changes vision. Yech.
Apparently we can all agree on Aubrey/Maturin though. I was middle management at the time I read them, and the idea that you could work someone half to death, flog them for insubordination, pay them less than a pittance, but keep them happy because The Job Is Important was a relevation for me. Also, free booze at the end of their shift helps.
Also, best M&C name?: Faster Doodle
Gray Lensman
I agree with HumboldtBlue. Reading the Aubrey/Maturin cycle is a glorious way to avoid teevee. I have read it three times and it is always a disappointment to close the last volume. The whole thing seems to be one book, it is so well integrated.
I also recommend the Sherlock Holmes Canon for a great read. The BBC dramatizations on CD are a great way to shorten a drive across the country.
vanya
She’d think you were insane
Nah, she’d just think you were a whore. If you look at 19th century
pornerotica, the women usually look pretty clean shaven except for the bush. Which is as it should be – shaving the crotch is for pedophiles.