Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

People are complicated. Love is not.

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

We are aware of all internet traditions.

Too often we hand the biggest microphones to the cynics and the critics who delight in declaring failure.

Battle won, war still ongoing.

“More of this”, i said to the dog.

Do not shrug your shoulders and accept the normalization of untruths.

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

When I decide to be condescending, you won’t have to dream up a fantasy about it.

When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.

Take hopelessness and turn it into resilience.

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

That’s my take and I am available for criticism at this time.

Let there be snark.

It’s time for the GOP to dust off that post-2012 autopsy, completely ignore it, and light the party on fire again.

T R E 4 5 O N

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

Conservatism: there are some people the law protects but does not bind and others who the law binds but does not protect.

Despite his magical powers, I don’t think Trump is thinking this through, to be honest.

Damn right I heard that as a threat.

You are here: Home / Talk Left Trolls Us

Talk Left Trolls Us

by | 294 Comments

This post is in: 

Big Tent Democrat links to a Chris Bowers post and demands to know what I think about it.

What do I think about it? I think Big Tent Democrat has lost his fucking mind, that is what I think.

Now get back to your busy schedule of praising Fox news while telling everyone that Obama is a lying liar stealth muslim misogynist but you intend to support him anyway. And really, don’t you have comments to be deleting?

I really can not wait until November. Seriously.

*** Update ***

Speaking of trolling, how did I get on an email list for a fruit juice mass marketing firm? I have received numerous emails from them asking me to buy fruit juice in America. What the hell kind of bizarre spam is this?

*** Update #2 ***

From the comments:

The most amusing point is that Chris Bowers did not at any point say that Obama was “fighting for uncommitted delegates in Michigan”. He just assumed that Obama would win most of the “Uncommitted” delegates would go Obama’s way, he said nothing about Obama fighting for them.

Then he challenged you to rebut a point that no one made.

Perhaps Armando should spend some more time thinking and reading and less time pitching his “Big Tent” for Hillary.

Glad I am not the only one who is wondering wtf BTD is doing and thinking.

Reader Interactions

294Comments

  2. 2.

    cleek

    This is a dangerous game for Obama supporters.

    oh noes! a blogger somewhere wrote something some other blogger doesn’t agree with! how dangerous!!!

    Obarma is fucking your delegates! on the couch, in the chair, on the floor, over there, by your cat, in your hat!

    it’s so daaaaaaaangerous.

  3. 3.

    taylormattd

    ha. too funny. Looks like Jeralyn deleted that one, although who knows. Makes Armando’s claim that others are “LYING” about the nature of deleted comments seem highly implausible at best.

  6. 6.

    capelza

    BTD is Aramdo right?

    Just askin’…

    But November can’t come soon enough. Was just on the phone to my mom and we were talking about the election. It’s the cabinet and the judges…will McCain be any better in that regard than either Dem candidate. No..Vote Donk.

    Beyond, we both agreed that the infighting between the two Dem camps’ folks was beyond stupid. Yes, both sides. You know who are you all are.

    And if you are going to insult me, I prefer Selma over Patty, I like her hair better.

  9. 9.

    Liberal Masochist

    From Bill Simmon’s (aka the Sports Guy) mailbag at espn.com today:

    Q: I can confirm your buddy Sully’s Twelve Percent Theory from the last mailbag (about mothers getting 12 percent crazier after each childbirth), although your Hillary Clinton example is wrong because it misses another key data point: Every time a man cheats on his wife, the wife loses another 33 percent of her sanity. So, you figure Hillary lost 12 percent from giving birth to Chelsea, 33 percent from Paula Jones, another 33 percent from Monica, and if you throw in a few more that we never found out about, she’s operating at approximately minus-530 percent sanity these days, right?

    — John M., Providence, R.I.

    SG: I’m Barack Obama, and I approve this message

  10. 10.

    SoulCatcher

    I sadly deleted a number of formerly decent blogs…they just went nuts.

    Talk Left, etc….

    oh well…

  11. 11.

    Lee

    Are there still people stupid enough to delete comments?

    ok…that was a stupid question.

    Don’t they realize that the cost/benefit of deleting comments is completely wrong?

  13. 13.

    Jake

    You have to love the poster telling Jeralyn that her credibility is shot after deleting his posts, and Jeralyn responding with “that’s your opinion”.

    Indeed, but it seems like a damned good one.

  14. 14.

    Jen

    And if you are going to insult me, I prefer Selma over Patty, I like her hair better.

    Nevah! Plus, with this comment you have demonstrated humor, thus not prompting the association.

    I wonder how they reconcile that background and this:

    …and PaulL. wept.

  15. 15.

    Ted

    I thought that BTD was Armando. He was a jackass over at Kos, and he certainly hasn’t changed much.

    Why did Armando leave Kos in the first place? He was outed as a lawyer for WalMart, something about a conflict of interest, then stopped blogging altogether, and now he’s over at TalkLeft.

  16. 16.

    yet another jeff

    I still like Jeralyn, but I rarely go over there anymore for all the BTD ranting…and I fear it’s infecting her too but I think she’ll recover her senses once we pick a freaking nominee. Is TChris still sane? Little Rock?

  17. 17.

    Zifnab

    He was outed as a lawyer for WalMart, something about a conflict of interest, then stopped blogging altogether, and now he’s over at TalkLeft.

    Is that the secret Clinton connection? All roads lead through Walmart? Those evil little fuckers.

  18. 18.

    John Cole

    I just don’t know how the fuck I am involved in his argument with Chris Bowers. I mean, he doesn’t even have anything to link that I have written. I am just sort of thrown in there for, well, I don’t know why.

    Not to mention, he is just flat out wrong in this comment in the thread:

    There was no caucus offered to be blocked.

    Why? Because Hillary rejected the idea of a caucus:

    On a “do-over” in Florida and Michigan, which held nominating contests that broke Democratic Party rules
    I would not accept a caucus. I think that would be a great disservice to the 2 million people who turned out and voted. I think that they want their votes counted.

    I am so tired of this crap. Can you imagine four more years of this fucking nightmare, with Hillary and her camp and her supporters pulling shit like this?

  19. 19.

    Jen

    Well, speaking of Wal-mart, I managed to get myself on some kind of Debbie Shank concern email list, and got this today…

    First of all, let it be known that I’m Debbie Shank’s son, and not some random dude putting in his two cents. That being said, here’s the skinny…

    When we sued the trucking company, our lawyer told us that the only amount we could get off of the trucking company was what the truck was insured for…namely, a million dollars. As they were a small trucking company, they had no real net worth, and the amount we could sue them for was just for their insurance.

    When we received the settlement of 1 million, a third of that was paid out to the lawyers. After that, my dad was given a portion of that to make up for lost wages. We told Wal-Mart about all of this, and they basically said “Okay.” and did nothing. We set up the rest, 417K, to take care of mom. We took care of her for three years on that, but when the statute of limitations was set to expire on Wal-Mart suing us, they literally had days left, they filed to sue us. Our lawyer told us at the time that they were only doing this to keep their options open, but Wal-Mart decided that they wanted to go after the settlement, as they say time and time again, “out of fairness for everyone in the medical plan”.

    And so it went. The first ruling came August 31, 2006. At the time it was the worst thing that had happened. Six days later, my brother was killed. Dad said “Fine. Whatever. They won.” We were without any will to keep going. Our lawyers said “We’ll appeal. You just don’t worry about things. We’ll take care of all of it.”

    Appeal after appeal, Wal-Mart won them all. We finally appealed to the Supreme Court. Last week, they said they weren’t going to take our case. We lost. Now, Wal-Mart can’t take any more money than we had in the trust fund, so they get that. But, we still have 150K in outstanding medical bills. We have a fund set up that has accepted donations, but it quickly depletes due to bills. Even with government assistance, we still must pay anywhere from 500-1000 per month to keep mom in the nursing home, and that’s not counting bills she has from trips to the hospital (a couple weeks ago she was bleeding internally) . The outstanding bills we have, they can sue my father directly, so it’s looking like he may have to sell his home at least. My youngest brother, if he wants to have the money to go to college, will himself either have to take out thousands in loans or join the military.

    Dad has worked all his life, was set to retire in 5 years, but now it’s looking as if he’ll have to work longer and longer. Plus he has cancer to worry about.

    So, that’s the story. I have a feeling that somewhere along the lines, be it by Wal-Mart, the courts, the lawyers, the trucking company, or a combination of all, we’ve been taken advantage of. We could only sue for so much, we had to pay the lawyers, the courts decided to maintain the status quo, and Wal-Mart sold it’s soul.

    Whoever’s fault it is, we’re screwed. Plain and simple.

    I wonder if there’s any spare change in that tent….

  20. 20.

    Jake

    I can imagine it, quite clearly, which is why I want Obama to win. The verbal gymnastics is so fucking tiring.

  21. 21.

    Paul L.

    And really, don’t you have comments to be deleting?

    That is not SOP for progressive blogs?

    …and PaulL. wept.

    I have known KC supported Obama for a while.
    He brings it up every time a progressive accuses him of being Right-wing.

    Obama was, of course, the only presidential candidate of either party to support a DOJ investigation of Mike Nifong.

    And I was thinking of starting a rumor that Obama was planning to pardon Nifong and make him AG.

  22. 22.

    Rick Taylor

    I’m just reading the pages that were removed from TalkLeft. The corkscrew landing didn’t happen either?

  23. 23.

    JC

    TalkLeft is as bad as RedState when it comes to deleting. It’s actually really sad. Those guys are losing their credibility completely.

  24. 24.

    JC

    At any rate John, feel free to use Talk Left as a version of the “crazy left”. Any little thing can suddenly be an “outrage”, depending on the weather.

  25. 25.

    The Grand Panjandrum

    This is a dangerous game for Obama supporters.

    Oooohhhhh! Wow! Danger! SNIPERS! Duck!

    What’s next? A titty twister?

    They have a very strict comment deletion policy and it often crosses the line into deleting comments just because they don’t agree with the owner. But, hey, Jeralyn owns the blog and BTD is her attack bitch poodle. Arf. Arf.

    We better be careful or he’s going demand an apology from you because of all the meanies commenting over here.

    Oh well, it will all over soon enough.

  26. 26.

    Dennis - SGMM

    I am so tired of this crap. Can you imagine four more years of this fucking nightmare, with Hillary and her camp and her supporters pulling shit like this?

    There would be no failures, no errors of judgment, no mistakes, only spinning of such intensity that harnessing it would mean energy independence.

  27. 27.

    ntr Fausto Carmona

    There would be no failures, no errors of judgment, no mistakes, only spinning of such intensity that harnessing it would mean energy independence.

    In other words, another Bush administration.

    Elsewhere, Harold Ickes Confirms That Wright Is Key Topic In Discussions With Super-Delegates

    It gets even better:

    * Said that it was possible that Hillary forces on the convention credentials committee could bring a so-called “minority report” to a full convention vote, though he also said that this is something Hillary doesn’t want to happen

    * Confirmed that the Hillary campaign could still try to woo super-dels even if she lost the popular vote, with Michigan and Florida counted

    * Said that there was no risk of Hillary’s efforts “tearing the party apart,” described the current campaign as “genteel,” and dismissed those worrying about the damage the campaign could do to the party as “hand-wringers”

    And here I thought the Clinton campaign was returning to reality. Oh well.

  28. 28.

    Jen

    We better be careful or he’s going demand an apology from you because of all the meanies commenting over here.

    It’s so daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaangerous!

  29. 29.

    Scrutinizer

    Oooohhhhh! Wow! Danger! SNIPERS! Duck!

    What’s next? A titty twister?

    Snork!

  30. 30.

    [email protected]

    Attention all Democrats and Independents:

    For the duration of this election campaign, can we all please focus our attacks on John McCain? Let Obama and Clinton duke it out until one emerges victorious (and hopefully has the other as their VP) without any additional comment or pot stirring our our part. If we are compelled to wax eloquent about the misdeeds of a Presidential candidate, let us tap the rich and every growing vein of McCain flip-flops, distortions, exaggerations, etc.

    This will make for much more interesting reading and will have the added benefit of preventing another four years of Bush neocom BS!

  31. 31.

    Davebo

    Deleting comments is one thing, editing them is quite another.

    Welcome to the Bizzaro World of the Left.

  32. 32.

    Davebo

    Listen. And understand. That terminator is out there. It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.

  33. 33.

    cbear

    how did I get on an email list for a fruit juice mass marketing firm?

    I’d be looking at Andrew Sullivan, if I were you.

  34. 34.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Thanks for posting that, Jen. It is so fucking depressing. Just for contrast, here’s the 25 richest Americans from an article in Forbes from September 2007:

    Rank Name Net Worth ($bil) Age Residence Source
    1 William Gates III 59.0 51 Medina, WA Microsoft
    2 Warren Buffett 52.0 77 Omaha, NE Berkshire Hathaway
    3 Sheldon Adelson 28.0 74 Las Vegas, NV casinos, hotels
    4 Lawrence Ellison 26.0 63 Redwood City, CA Oracle
    5 Sergey Brin 18.5 34 Palo Alto, CA Google
    5 Larry Page 18.5 34 San Francisco, CA Google
    7 Kirk Kerkorian 18.0 90 Los Angeles, CA investments, casinos
    8 Michael Dell 17.2 42 Austin, TX Dell
    9 Charles Koch 17.0 71 Wichita, KS oil, commodities
    9 David Koch 17.0 67 New York, NY oil, commodities
    11 Paul Allen 16.8 54 Mercer Island, WA Microsoft, investments
    12 Christy Walton & family 16.3 52 Jackson, WY Wal-Mart inheritance
    12 Jim Walton 16.3 59 Bentonville, AR Wal-Mart
    12 S Robson Walton 16.3 63 Bentonville, AR Wal-Mart
    15 Alice Walton 16.1 58 Fort Worth, TX Wal-Mart
    16 Steven Ballmer 15.2 51 Hunts Point, WA Microsoft
    17 Abigail Johnson 15.0 45 Boston, MA Fidelity
    18 Carl Icahn 14.5 71 New York, NY leveraged buyouts
    19 Forrest Mars Jr 14.0 76 McLean, VA candy, pet food
    19 Jacqueline Mars 14.0 67 Bedminster, NJ candy, pet food
    19 John Mars 14.0 71 Arlington, VA candy, pet food
    19 Jack Taylor & family 14.0 85 St Louis, MO Enterprise Rent-A-Car
    23 Donald Bren 13.0 75 Newport Beach, CA real estate
    24 Anne Cox Chambers 12.6 87 Atlanta, GA Cox Enterprises
    25 Michael Bloomberg 11.5 65 New York, NY Bloomberg

    The Walton’s come in at twelfth place, down from 10th in 2006 so it is possible they’re just working a little harder to get back into the top 10.

  36. 36.

    jake

    I just don’t know how the fuck I am involved in his argument with Chris Bowers. I mean, he doesn’t even have anything to link that I have written. I am just sort of thrown in there for, well, I don’t know why.

    Simple.

    1. You’ll make a perfectly reasonable and moderate response eg, you think Big Tit Democrat has lost his mind.

    2. They get to scream about how mean everyone is to them.

    3. Given their current rate of mental decay, they’ll probably claim you’re acting on Obama’s orders.

    Alternate explanation: This is a lame ass grade-school type attempt to pick a fight by proxy.

  37. 37.

    Andrew

    Deleting comments is one thing, editing them is quite another.

    I poop to much!

    You too?!

  38. 38.

    zack

    Dec. 1, 2007:

    MSNBC reported that:

    Democratic candidates John Edwards, Barack Obama, Bill Richardson and Joe Biden have withdrawn their names from the ballot to satisfy Iowa and New Hampshire, which were unhappy Michigan was challenging their leadoff status on the primary calendar.

    At this time, no one was accusing Obama of disenfranchising voters, and there was no mention of any sort of devious anti- Hillary plot.

    None.

    I just went back to the Talk Left archive for that month of December and there is not one post that even mentions the decision to strip Michigan of all its delegates to the national convention.

    This is now viewed (over there) as the greatest electoral travesty ever perpetrated upon voters anywhere. Yet, at the time, it didn’t even merit a mention at Talk Left.

    Why was that?

  39. 39.

    Jen

    Yes, when there is a Democratic nominee, and I’d say it’s 96% to be Obama, we all know to join the lockstep. This is not a particularly new concept. We. Know.

    As long as Hillary wants to stay in the race with those odds, and she’s going to insist on lying about sniper fire, I consider her to be at greater fault for whatever criticism she receives than the commentariat of a snarky blog. To refocus all attention on McCain, this needs to be a two-person race. You can post the concern trolling far and wide on the interwebs 24 hours a day and it will not change that fact.

  40. 40.

    Punchy

    OT:

    Que another Code Brown!

    ORLANDO, Fla. – Authorities say they have detained a passenger who was acting suspiciously at Orlando International Airport.

    Airport spokeswoman Carolyn Fennell says officers found suspicious items in the person’s bag. She could not say what the items were.

    Shorter spokesman — yes, we shut down our entire ginormous airport, I have no idea why and for what reason, and it’s all most likely due to some Brown guy trying to carry on his Koran, which will soon be a crime.

  41. 41.

    mattt

    There was no corkscrew landing. Some TV show interviewed the pilot and he said that if conditions had made such a maneuver advisable, he would have just aborted the landing.

    What’s happened at TL is really tragic….at what was one of my favorite legal blogs they’re actively cultivating an echo chamber insulated from any pointed criticism of their candidate of choice. Some of the headliner posts don’t even make sense anymore – you have to be conversant in their weird po-Hillary alternate reality for the arguments and snark to make any sense.

  42. 42.

    SpotWeld

    email list for a fruit juice mass marketing firm?

    Sounds like the plot for the sequel to “Trading Places”

  44. 44.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    I just went back to the Talk Left archive for that month of December and there is not one post that even mentions the decision to strip Michigan of all its delegates to the national convention.

    This is now viewed (over there) as the greatest electoral travesty ever perpetrated upon voters anywhere. Yet, at the time, it didn’t even merit a mention at Talk Left.

    Why was that?

    Everyone was busy Christmas shopping?

  45. 45.

    Porco Rosso

    I like the Hillary approach. To save us from another McGovern, she’ll turn into Nixon. Because, she loves America just that much!!!

  46. 46.

    DougJ

    What kind of person would call himself “Big Tent Democrat”? It’s like calling yourself “Centrist Guy” or “Voice of Reason”, only worse because it also sounds kind of like a political porn star.

  47. 47.

    1jane

    When Talk Left stuck to the law it was sometimes mildly interesting to take a peek. Now days if a person posts something outside their narrow band of Clintin support, poof, deleted! The deletes are not just deletes, you get insulted in the process. I tried for a couple of weeks to figure out what was acceptable to post. This is the first site that I’ve encountered with a heavy hand on the delete key.. Rather than allowing posters to police themselves they have appointed themselves the hall monitors of their blog. I finally figured out what Jeryln and BTD like..it’s not the content they post that keeps them going… it’s the power trip. It reads like a blog middle school kids post on these days.

  49. 49.

    some guy

    One entertaining part of this primary season is watching various bloggers contort themselves trying to defend Clinton. My favorite tactic is their adoption of the “Bush Derangement Syndrome” accusation pioneered by Bush apologists. In any case, it’s made it pretty easy to tell which bloggers operate in good faith and which don’t.

  50. 50.

    PeterJ

    Rick Tailor said:

    I’m just reading the pages that were removed from TalkLeft. The corkscrew landing didn’t happen either?

    If I recall correctly, that the landing wasn’t a normal one has to do with the landscape surronding Tuzla. Not sure where I read it or if I might remember wrong…

    —

    I don’t care about TalkLeft, they aren’t interested in a genuine discussion, it’s an echo chamber for their own truths. So they have to delete comments. It’s just sad and pathetic…

    Have they reacted to the idea of Fox News being the fairest news yet? I recall Armando writing about Faux News on the Daily Kos…

    Also, I’ve asked before, but do anyone know of a pro Obama site behaving like TalkLeft? Blocking users and deleting contrary ideas…

    —

    Mu Mu Land

  52. 52.

    Incertus

    Why did Armando leave Kos in the first place?

    If I recall correctly, it was because Armando had become such a distraction (read “insufferable douchebag”) that Kos felt he had to kick him out. It’s been a while, but I think he got booted, and to get booted from Kos is tough.

  53. 53.

    Zifnab

    I like the Hillary approach. To save us from another McGovern, she’ll turn into Nixon.

    Am I the only one who sees Hillary playing Nixon to GW’s conservative Johnson? If Bush turns into an anti-war hippie eight weeks after he leaves office, I’m going to acknowledge that time travel really does exist when we start reliving the sixties all over again.

  54. 54.

    mattt

    “po, po Hillary”

    heh…I meant “pro-,” but po” fits too with the Hillary-as-victim meme. Does it count as a witty double-meaning if I did it by accident?

  56. 56.

    DougJ

    If I recall correctly, it was because Armando had become such a distraction (read “insufferable douchebag”) that Kos felt he had to kick him out.

    This reminds me of the story of Keith Richards kicking Brian Jones out of the Stones because Brian was taking too much smack.

  57. 57.

    ThymeZone

    Can you imagine four more years of this fucking nightmare, with Hillary and her camp and her supporters pulling shit like this?

    Not gonna happen. Barring unforseen and very weird circumstances, Barack Obama will be the Dem nominee, and the next president.

    Clinton is basically toast. And if anyone is watching McCain’s Service to America Tour, you know that he is also going to be toast. Never in history has there been a more smary, self-justifying pile unloaded onto the American scene than this trainwreck. You think Clinton has played the “entitled” card? You ain’t seen nothin. This guy does everything but pull out a hanky and start bawling into the cameras about what an honor it was to serve Amurrica and win the Vietnam War for us.

    The man is a disaster as a candidate. He can’t make a speech, he can’t have an original thought, he can’t get himself out of 1973. He doesn’t understand the Middle East, he states publicly that economics is not his thing in a year when the economy will be the decisive issue in the election, and he is despised by half of his own party.

    Stop worrying.

  58. 58.

    mattt

    “If I recall correctly, that the landing wasn’t a normal one has to do with the landscape surronding Tuzla. Not sure where I read it or if I might remember wrong…”

    I think the pilot said something about steeper than average due to topography, but overall nothing very out of the ordinary. As First Lady and on the campaign trail I suspect Hillary has flown into many dozens of smaller airports. What I’d like to ask her is: if there was any significant danger at all, why the hell was your teenage daughter with you, strolling along the tarmac and smiling at the greeting dignitaries without even a minder nearby?

  59. 59.

    Elvis Elvisberg

    Not to mention, he is just flat out wrong in this comment in the thread:

    There was no caucus offered to be blocked.

    Why? Because Hillary rejected the idea of a caucus:

    Hillary Clinton: a total caucus block.

  62. 62.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    The man is a disaster as a candidate. He can’t make a speech, he can’t have an original thought, he can’t get himself out of 1973. He doesn’t understand the Middle East, he states publicly that economics is not his thing in a year when the economy will be the decisive issue in the election, and he is despised by half of his own party.

    AND he’s 187 years old. The nap break halfway through the debate with Obama will seal his doom.

  63. 63.

    PeterJ

    What kind of person would call himself “Big Tent Democrat”? It’s like calling yourself “Centrist Guy” or “Voice of Reason”, only worse because it also sounds kind of like a political porn star.

    The democrats own Matt Sanchez?

    —
    Also, why would a Big Tent Democrat be opposed to contrary ideas? Perhaps he should change his name to Little Tent Democrat? Or Kitchen Sink Democrat?

  64. 64.

    Jake

    Incidentally, re: McCain Obama had a great line today:

    “He’s on a biography tour right now, so I want to be clear that most of us know his biography and it is worthy of admiration. This is a man who’s a genuine American hero and has served this country with distinction, but my argument with John McCain is not his biography, it’s his policies.”

  65. 65.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Hillary Clinton: a total caucus teaser.

    LOL, you sexist pig. Your delightful remarks are to be scorned.

  66. 66.

    Tom in Texas

    Been tryin to work my mind around ‘Mondo’s nuanced argument for a few minutes. I think I got it:

    Here’s a post from Chris Bowers pointing out that the uncommitted delegates in MI are probably going to break for Obama in a big way (hardly a shocker, considering between Clinton and Anyone else they chose Anyone else, and Obama is someone else). Thus Obama is pressuring these delegates to vote for him. Despite these delegates not having a vote at the convention, this proves Obama wants to seat delegates voting for him from MI. Since John argues that MI and FL should not be seated as is, John must denounce Obama’s imagined hijacking of delegates he’s never asked to have sat.

  67. 67.

    Davebo

    The Big Tent Democrat moniker makes perfect sense to me.

    He’s obviously evoking the idea that all are welcome in the Democratic party….

    Provided they sign a loyalty pledge to Hillary.

  68. 68.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Thus Obama is pressuring these delegates to vote for him.

    Is there evidence of this?

  71. 71.

    Paul L.

    AND he’s 187 years old. The nap break halfway through the debate with Obama will seal his doom.

    I guess Mccain could use the tired excuse used by the democrats for a bad debate performance.

    It’s 3:00 a.m., and your children are safe and asleep. Who do you want answering the phone? If your answer is Hillary Clinton, then who do you want answering the phone the next day when Hillary Clinton is tired?

    Clinton said she was “sleep-deprived” and “misspoke” when she said last week that she landed under sniper fire during a trip to Bosnia in 1996, when she was first lady.

    I’m not sure I see the connection between “tired” and ‘there were snipers shooting at me!’ but then Obama blamed tiredness for claiming 10,000 people had died in a Kansas tornado (the actual number was 12).

  72. 72.

    Zifnab

    Since John argues that MI and FL should not be seated as is, John must denounce Obama’s imagined hijacking of delegates he’s never asked to have sat.

    That makes perfect sense to me.

  73. 73.

    scott

    Armando *has* lost his mind?

    That’s incorrect. He lost his mind at least two years ago.

    Armando a jackass over at the GOS? Or an insufferable douchebag? Those terms don’t do his assholery justice.

    And yes, he was tossed because he went to 11 on the Asshole Meter.

    When I lived in DC, we usta say that we hated the fact that then Mayor For Life Marion Barry was, well mayor, since he made Dems a laughingstock. Armando’s cut from the same cloth. If there were ever a fellow Dem that I’d like to see go third-party, it’s him.

  74. 74.

    Zifnab

    I guess Mccain could use the tired excuse used by the democrats for a bad debate performance.

    Paul, you’ve got your right-wing meme all backwards. Obama is ahead so you need to cheer lead for Hillary now. You were supposed to be making these quips back on Super Tuesday when Hillary was the presumptive default inevitable nominee. Get your ass in line, P. Wingnuttia: You’re doing it wrong!

  75. 75.

    Tim (the Other One)

    “when we start reliving the sixties all over again.”

    I would actually pay money to do that.

  76. 76.

    cleek

    “when we start reliving the sixties all over again.”

    don’t give McCain any ideas. we don’t want anyone trying for a do-over in Vietnam.

  77. 77.

    Incertus

    Shorter spokesman—yes, we shut down our entire ginormous airport, I have no idea why and for what reason, and it’s all most likely due to some Brown guy trying to carry on his Koran, which will soon be a crime.

    In this case, it turned out to be a real deal–some guy trying to take pipe bomb material to Jamaica. Insert your own joke–I got nothing.

  78. 78.

    tBone

    And yes, he was tossed because he went to 11 on the Asshole Meter.

    I thought he GBCWed at Kos because he was outed? (Not that I doubt he scaled new heights of assholery, you understand.)

    One of my favorite blogospheric memories is the Armando/Tall Dave pairing at Swords Crossed, just for the sheer horrible-car-crash-I-can’t-look-away-from aspect of it all.

  79. 79.

    CT

    Its funny-I just came over here from TL to see if John had noticed Armando was flinging shit his way. And I was not dissapointed. Jeralyn’s fine-she just a rather biased Clinton supporter. But Armando is so uptight that the stick up his ass has a stick up its ass (h/t Superintendent Chalmers, IIRC). In the comment thread to that post, he practically challenges some poor guy to a duel for suggesting that SOME people on both sides of the Obama/Clinton issue might be self-serving on the MI/FLA debate. He basically told a commentator yesterday to not come back until he agreed with Armando on FLA/MI.

    I’d hate to see that place if Armando stopped ‘supporting’ Obama.

  80. 80.

    Karmakin

    At this point, this biggest concern I think is that Clinton would end up being the Democratic version of Bush. Someone who would fuck up everything they touched. It doesn’t matter if we were against the goal, he ended up fucking it up anyway.

    The whole loyalty schtick doesn’t play too well into that I’m afraid.

  81. 81.

    Harley

    No kidding. I lasted 24 hours over at Talkleft before Armando banned me. Then deleted every comment that led to the banning. I felt, I dunno, invisible.

  83. 83.

    over_educated

    The irony is you can’t even have a discussion with them on their site, because THEY WILL DELETE YOUR FUCKING POST if it doesn’t fully support the “Clinton-good, Obama-bad” meme.

    To try to through shit on you, when at least you can have conversation on this blog, is laughable.

  84. 84.

    gypsy howell

    The man is a disaster as a candidate. He can’t make a speech, he can’t have an original thought, he can’t get himself out of 1973. He doesn’t understand the Middle East, he states publicly that economics is not his thing in a year when the economy will be the decisive issue in the election, and he is despised by half of his own party.

    Stop worrying.

    The man serves Dove bars! He cooks barbeque, for god’s sakes! And you think he doesn’t have a chance?

    Need I remind you that this is the same country which ‘elected’ Bush twice?

  85. 85.

    capelza

    One of my favorite blogospheric memories is the Armando/Tall Dave pairing at Swords Crossed, just for the sheer horrible-car-crash-I-can’t-look-away-from aspect of it all.

    I’d’ve paid money to see that.

    Armando, sorry haters, was pure entertainment at Kos. You knew if Armando was posting that someone’s fur was going to fly. I think he’s a raving lunatic, but siince his departure, he’s been replaced by other lesser, but more numerous flaming assholes…nature and poltical blogs delpore the empty cological niche..

    He did do a GBCW diary, but then came back as BTD..not surew if he left then on his own or was booted, or got himslef booted on purpose..because he knew he couldn’t help himslef.

  87. 87.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    thought he GBCWed at Kos because he was outed? (Not that I doubt he scaled new heights of assholery, you understand.)

    He GBCW’ed then he came back. Then he “left to pursue other opportunities” and wound up as a Hillary shill. So I guess the other opportunities fell through.

    GBCW’ing is the equivalent of a 12 year old running away. They practically always come back.

  88. 88.

    PaulB

    This is the first site that I’ve encountered with a heavy hand on the delete key..

    Redstate.com is famous for it, but that’s hardly a model for a progressive blog to emulate. Quite a few bloggers have taken small steps to police their comment sections, usually because they’re tired of the idiotic trolling and mindless insults, not because they’re trying to shut out opposing views. They use various techniques, from disemvowelling to replacing text with a simple “*” to deleting comments from persistent thread-devouring trolls. All of the ones I visit use such tactics sparingly.

    I went to TalkLeft to see if I could get some evidence on whether Obama truly had blocked the revotes in Florida and Michigan, something I was genuinely curious about. I found a post titled “Wayne Barrett: Obama Blocked Revotes in FL/MI“. Sadly, neither in that post nor in the linked article did I find a shred of evidence that Obama had actually blocked any revotes. What I did find was this:

    I am deleting false comments on (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 04:03:27 PM EST

    MI/FL. The issue has been hashed out. If you do not accept what we have to say on it, either hold your toungue or go elsewhere.

  89. 89.

    p.a.

    Speaking of trolling, how did I get on an email list for a fruit juice mass marketing firm? I have received numerous emails from them asking me to buy fruit juice in America. What the hell kind of bizarre spam is this?

    Reminds me of Ray Romano’s mother’s horror when he entered her in the ‘Fruit of the Month’ club…

  90. 90.

    some guy

    tBone: I thought he GBCWed at Kos because he was outed?

    No, he was booted. Here’s one dKos frontpager’s assessment of the reason why:

    The guy who got his ass banned here for his famed inability to argue rationally or sanely.

    Plus ça change …

  91. 91.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    I am deleting false comments on (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 04:03:27 PM EST

    MI/FL. The issue has been hashed out. If you do not accept what we have to say on it, either hold your toungue or go elsewhere.

    LOL! I’ve never been to the HillBlogs but that is some kinda funny.

  92. 92.

    flyerhawk

    What is shocking is that Armando is the MODERATE voice. Consider some of these choice comments from the linked thread..

    I listen to talk shows when driving.
    I’ve been less offended by Savage than some of the anti-Hillary hosts on Air America. Malloy’s rants are insane.
    The hatred is palpable.

    Mike Malloy is now worse that Savage because apparently he supports Obama and that is simply unacceptable.

    [new] What if (none / 0) (#89)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 03:59:16 PM EST
    Obama “mis-speaks” and some foreign leader doesn’t wait for the W.O.R.M. and just goes ahead and fires the nuke?

    That’s a pretty radical example, but you get the implication don’t you?

    Yup. Obama is apparently the first politician to occasionally mispeak. And, as we all know, nuclear wars are started over poor word choices.

    What is amazing is that they have pulled 2 classic plays from the GOP playbook.

    1. Accuse all critics of being derangement. BDS, CDS. What’s the difference? It doesn’t mean anything anyway. It’s just a way to trivialize critics.

    2. Focus on media outlet in an attempt to portray your politician of choice in a sympathetic light. Reading TL you would think that the only news networks are NBC, MSNBC, and Fox. ABC, CBS, and CNN apparently don’t count.

    The good news for them is that, after Hillary concedes, they will be able to blame NBC for her defeat and thus avoid the unpleasant reality that their “tough, gritty fighter” with years of experience ran an incompetent campaign in which they bounced from narrative to narrative in hopes of getting lucky and hitting something that might work.

  93. 93.

    Pb

    I wish Armando could have at least come up with something a bit more clever.

    While Obama fans like John Cole of Balloon Juice are aghast that Hillary Clinton is fighting for revotes in Michigan and Florida, I wonder what they think of Obama fighting for uncommitted delegates in Michigan?

    Which, you know, he apparently isn’t doing, not even according to the link. Therefore, my answer is “Mu”, aka, when did Hillary Clinton stop beating her wife.

    So what would have been more clever? Well, how about this: let’s say that at some point in the future, there will/could be some uncommitted delegates in Michigan that would vote to support Obama at the convention. However, Obama is on record as supporting the DNC on this one, and following the rules. The rules say that Michigan currently has zero delegates. So OMG why is Obama pre-emptively disenfranchising his own possible future supporters?! Or something. I’m sure that with a bit more work, the crazy can be stretched out a bit here. I’ll leave that up to TalkLeft.

  94. 94.

    Dennis - SGMM

    Hmmm, thinking it’s about time to start posting over at TL and gradually introduce the idea that the they should all commit Seppuku if Obama gets the nom.
    Granted that at any reasonably sane venue the idea would be rejected out of hand but, somehow I think that it has legs at TL.

  96. 96.

    ThymeZone

    Okay, just because I am such a good guy, gotta share this joke that a fellow at work just told me:

    A blind guy tells his friend, hey, I went into that bar over there with my seeing eye dog, and when the bartender saw I was blind, he gave me a free beer.

    So the fellow goes and gets his dog and goes into the bar.

    The bartender says, “Sorry, no dogs allowed in here.”

    Fella says, “I’m sorry, I’m blind, this is a seeing eye dog.”

    Bartender says “Since when do they make a chihuahua a seeing eye dog?”

    Fella says “What? They gave me a fucking chichuaua?”

    —–//

    A metaphor of sorts for the Clinton campaign.

  97. 97.

    IanY77

    Speaking of trolling, how did I get on an email list for a fruit juice mass marketing firm? I have received numerous emails from them asking me to buy fruit juice in America. What the hell kind of bizarre spam is this?

    It’s a bit of an intervention, John. We got together, and figured that the beer consumption was a little too high. Think of it as like an anonymous gift of nose hair trimmers at Christmas: take the hint.

    Seriously though, wow, that’s a nice change from big dick pills and fake watches.

  98. 98.

    theturtlemoves

    What kind of person would call himself “Big Tent Democrat”?

    Probably the same kind of person who would imply that he was twice as smart as everyone else with his moniker; see myiq2xu. Delusions of grandeur are not uncommon in supporters of She Who Must Be Obeyed, it seems. The other common thread with those two is the supposed practice of law. I know all lawyers aren’t complete asshats, as Balloon Juice’s own Jen seems a very reasonable woman, but WTF is up with some of the rest of them?

  100. 100.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    A metaphor of sorts for the Clinton campaign.

    Hahah! That is great. I wish I had a friend to tell it to.

  101. 101.

    Bey

    Be of good cheer!

    I just had my second registered republican drop by my cube to confess he’s voting for Obama.

    And *this* one was one of those fundi christian ‘purity pledge for my daughters’ guys. The Obama Sanity Rays seem to be working.

  102. 102.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    Zifnab Says:

    I like the Hillary approach. To save us from another McGovern, she’ll turn into Nixon.

    Am I the only one who sees Hillary playing Nixon to GW’s conservative Johnson? If Bush turns into an anti-war hippie eight weeks after he leaves office, I’m going to acknowledge that time travel really does exist when we start reliving the sixties all over again.

    In Hillary’s defense, at no point has she claimed to have a secret plan to win in Iraq. Otherwise, yes the parallels are a bit on the creepy side, except that Nixon was about 1000% more competent at everything.

  103. 103.

    Martin

    And this one was one of those fundi christian ‘purity pledge for my daughters’ guys. The Obama Sanity Rays seem to be working.

    I keep telling you that more of the religious right will turn out for Obama than people realize. Many of these people *will* do their homework on him (as far as what they care about) and he’ll come across as the most honest Christian they’ve seen in a long time. They’ll also prove to be somewhat effective at tamping out the muslim rumors. The Wright situation will help him in that crowd.

  104. 104.

    leinie

    n Hillary’s defense, at no point has she claimed to have a secret plan to win in Iraq, yet

    There, LeftTurn, I fixed it for ya.

    You know what I love about you guys? You read the shit so I don’t have to, and then you entertain me.

  105. 105.

    Martin

    I wonder if anyone pointed out that Rocky LOST that first fight against Apollo Creed.

    The negro is always keeping whitey down.

  106. 106.

    capelza

    except that Nixon was about 1000% more competent at everything

    Huh!? Are we talking about Richard Nixon? How was he more competent than Clinton, just asking..or did you type that because it sounded good?

    Seriously, I was there…and this is the same guy who had to make the Checkers speech. What was so competent about him, before he was electeds President?
    Because if you are going to say that, you need to back it up.

    And I say this not as a Clinton supporter (nor am I a Obama supporter), but that just a load of bollocks…Jesus h. christ…living under Nixon sucked, I mean he had fucking Kissinger and Agnew! Not to mention NOT ending the war he promised to end in 1968 till afer he got relected in 72…oh don’t get me started on Nixon…

  107. 107.

    Z

    Not sure where you are getting the Nixon was competent argument, either. He got a few things right (ie. China), but he had some major screw-ups.

  108. 108.

    PeterJ

    I wonder if anyone pointed out that Rocky LOST that first fight against Apollo Creed.

    Obviously her comparing herself with Rocky is a subtle hint that she will run as an independent in the GE. She will then continue to pummel Obama and in the end she will “win” over him. “Win” since McCain will also be running and will crush them both.

  109. 109.

    Jake

    Didn’t Obama say early on in the campaign that the battle between him and Clinton was like the one between Rocky and Apollo Creed, but that the funny thing was that he was Rocky?

    It was a joke when he said it. Now Hillary’s stealing his metaphors and botching them? What a fucking brilliant lady she is. She should really be President.

  110. 110.

    Jen

    I have good news.

    After years of hounding Debbie Shank and her family, Wal-Mart says it will finally do the right thing.

    Today, Wal-Mart agreed to allow the Shank family to keep the money they won from the trucking company responsible for Debbie’s injuries.

  112. 112.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    Seriously, I was there…and this is the same guy who had to make the Checkers speech. What was so competent about him, before he was electeds President?
    Because if you are going to say that, you need to back it up.

    Let’s check – Presidential elections won-lost

    Nixon: 2-1 (and most GOPers will tell you that IL 1960 was FL 2000 in reverse)

    Hillary: 0 and counting

    As for actual governance while in office, in 1969 Nixon inherited a situation about as bad as what the next administration in 2009 is going to get: a failed war, an out of control federal budget, a crappy economy, rioting and bitter divisions worse than today all over the country.

    Was he an evil bastard? Yes.
    Do I hate his guts? Yes.
    Did he do a better job under the circumstances than present company in the GOP or Hill would have managed? I submit that the answer is yes.

    The legislation that Nixon signed into law (e.g. EPA, Welfare) would qualify him as a raving moonbat by today’s standards. Thawing relations with China was the most significant geopolitical event of the late 20th Cen. until the fall of the USSR. Finally, he was really good at ratf**king political opponents. Much better than present company. Don’t forget that it was under Nixon that the GOP put their southern strategy juggernaut together, running against an entrenched Democratic party which owned the WH and both houses of Congress (people forget how dominant the Dems were as a majority party in the mid 60’s). When was the last time Mark Penn and Co. cleaned somebody’s clock the way that Nixon did in 1972? Chimpy and co. are amateurs by comparison; if Nixon and his team had been gifted with something like 9-11 to work with in today’s world, you wouldn’t be reading this blog right now.

  113. 113.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    That’s great news. I’d sure like to see an accounting of how much money Walmart spent to get to this point. Also, do the Shanks have to pay all the legal fees incurred trying to fight off Walmart?

  114. 114.

    jake

    That’s great news Jen. I just wish there were a way to make Wal*Mart admit they aren’t doing the right thing so much as trying to get their nuts off the anvil.

    Also, I can’t bring myself to look. Someone check to see if TL is getting worked up because Obama won’t accept Hillary’s challenge to a duel.

    “A bowling night. Right here in Pennsylvania. The winner take all,” she went on. “I’ll even spot him two frames.”

    “It is time for his campaign to get out of the gutter and allow all the pins to be counted.

    Gutter? Oh do shut up, Senator.

  115. 115.

    DougJ

    Probably the same kind of person who would imply that he was twice as smart as everyone else with his moniker; see myiq2xu.

    You do realize that myiq2xu is a joke name, right?

  116. 116.

    capelza

    Nixon: 2-1 (and most GOPers will tell you that IL 1960 was FL 2000 in reverse)

    Hillary: 0 and counting

    Of course the GOP will say that…however, if you want to use elections won as a sign of competence, then Bush is competent as hell..and he (Bush) didn’t win an election following the spring of 1968.

    I’ll grant the EPA,etc..still, your characterisation that he is 1000 times more competent than Clinton..no. Watergate, would HE have survived an impeachment (actually that was her husband as we all know), but then turn that into a win for the Senate, meanwhile Gingrich and his followers had to resign.

    I’ll tell you why Nixon won in ’72…George McGovern. Loved the man, but he misjudged the Americans…and he was 4 years too late.

    If competence means not vetting your VP then yeah, Nixon was “cpmetent”. I swear, he won simply because he had been running since time began (as a song on the radio at the time would sing..not to mention, getting himself mixed up in Watergate and taping the whole fuckiong thing!

    Again, I’m not defending Clinton so much as taking issue with your hyperbole.

  117. 117.

    Crusty Dem

    The most amusing point is that Chris Bowers did not at any point say that Obama was “fighting for uncommitted delegates in Michigan”. He just assumed that Obama would win most of the “Uncommitted” delegates would go Obama’s way, he said nothing about Obama fighting for them.

    Then he challenged you to rebut a point that no one made.

    Perhaps Armando should spend some more time thinking and reading and less time pitching his “Big Tent” for Hillary.

  118. 118.

    Rick Taylor

    Also, I can’t bring myself to look. Someone check to see if TL is getting worked up because Obama won’t accept Hillary’s challenge to a duel.

    Nope, definitely not; bowling is not even mentioned. You can find criticism of Obama’s bowling at Taylor Marsh, although there the opinion seems to be that he shouldn’t have done it at all if he’d do so badly (think Dukakis in a tank, a failed attempt to win mainstream Democrats).

    Big Tent Democrat does have a post criticizing Harold Ickes for saying Hillary would try to woo super delegates even if she lost the popular vote. For all the criticism he’s gotten here, he is consistently defending the popular vote, and I think that is his motivation.

  119. 119.

    mantis

    Here’s a strange post from BTD/Armando today:

    Harold Ickes is supposed to be a pro. He did not demonstrate that in his interview with Greg Sargent:

    [Ickes] [c]onfirmed that the Hillary campaign could still try to woo super-dels even if she lost the popular vote, with Michigan and Florida counted.

    Just ridiculous. Hillary Clinton is out there arguing in favor of counting the votes in all 50 states and here is Ickes saying that the RESULT of those votes will not matter to the Clinton campaign. This is inexcusable, harmful, stupid and reprehensible. There are other issues in Sargent’s interview that others will certainly take issue with, but that statement is, to me, the worst of all. If it is true, I will be the first in line denouncing the Clinton campaign when the time comes.

    Is it possible that BTD/Armando has not been dishonestly shilling for Clinton, but has genuinely bought into the campaign’s rhetoric about Florida and Michigan (“make every vote count!”)? Is this really the first sign for BTD/Armando that Clinton is more than willing to do anything she can to continue this campaign and damage Obama, regardless of the circumstances, hopeless or not? For those of us who have seen that for weeks (if not months or years), it seems ludicrous, but I guess it could be possible.

    I wonder, if BTD/Armando really is “first in line denouncing the Clinton campaign when the time comes” (yeah well, kind of missed the first car on that train already, chum), will Jeralyn start deleting his posts? Gotta keep the place pure, ya know.

  120. 120.

    Rick Taylor

    The man is a disaster as a candidate. He can’t make a speech, he can’t have an original thought, he can’t get himself out of 1973. He doesn’t understand the Middle East, he states publicly that economics is not his thing in a year when the economy will be the decisive issue in the election, and he is despised by half of his own party.

    Stop worrying.

    I was convinced Bush would loose in 1996, what with him showing himself to be an incompetent in the first debate with Gore. I was even more convinced Bush would loose in 2000, what with him being exposed as starting a war under false pretenses that was coming apart at the seams. I sure hope McCain has no chance, but it’s not something I’d take for granted.

  121. 121.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Armando:
    I will be the first in line denouncing the Clinton campaign

    The line is already out the door and around the block. Did he mean he was going to start a new line? Because that one is also already out the door and around the block too.

  123. 123.

    Conservatively Liberal

    What if Armando is feigning being upset at Ickes statement so he will have an ‘out’ clause for Hillary. If she does not want the popular vote to count, then he can’t support her any more. It sure would be a convenient way for him to neatly pivot from Hillary to Obama, and Armando might like the idea of a whole new crowd of people who will listen to him and support what he says (about supporting Obama).

    Armando is a blog nymphomaniac. He has to blog because he likes the attention. I would not put it past him to move from Hillary to Obama (as long as Hillary is losing) so he can rebuild his ‘base’.

    BTD/Armando is turned up to 11? Naah, he is more like my TV. It turns up to 100. :D

  124. 124.

    Tlaloc

    Rick Taylor:
    “Nope, definitely not; bowling is not even mentioned. You can find criticism of Obama’s bowling at Taylor Marsh, although there the opinion seems to be that he shouldn’t have done it at all if he’d do so badly (think Dukakis in a tank, a failed attempt to win mainstream Democrats).”

    Synergy. I just said the same thing at Swordscrossed. (but of course it isn’t synergy the vast hillary wing conspiracy has minons everywhere! IMNUR interwebz dis’in ur Bama.)

  125. 125.

    capelza

    I do have to say, that from a distance, and I am keeping that distance let me tell you…

    That beyond all the rhetoric and rules, the VOTERS in MI/FL were screwed over. The ones the voted.

    I know in Fl it was the legislature that voted to move up the primary ( curse ALL states that have moved up their primaries, this election has gone on longer than I ever want to experience again), not sure about MI. And yeah, the voters elected the people and perhaps the politicians will pay for it next election. But punish the legislators, not the voters. Don’t give any Dem pol that voted to move the primary up any DNC money.

    Anyhoo..I am bothered by it. What next? Oregon doesn’t have a primary for over a month…will states that hold late primaries be punished for not joining the herd? Just kidding, but if something like that were to happen, I’d be all kinds of pissed off. And I’d vote against the yahoos who brought something like that about, but I’d be even more pissed that my vote was rendered mmot by internal DNC (or whoever) politics. I mean, seriously, screaming pissed off.

  126. 126.

    Bubblegum Tate

    Can John just denounce… or does he have to reject AND denounce?

    Reject, denounce, then villify. Then a light lunch. Then ostracize, demonize, and, finally, burn in effigy.

  127. 127.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    capelza,

    Understood – I am indulging in hyperbole although not at much as you are inferring – I said 1000 percent (i.e. 10x), not 1000 times.

    I’m really using 2 different yardsticks here: governance vs. Chimpy, and winning elections/political battles vs. Hillary.

    The former is self-explanatory – for all his evilness and the death and destruction he caused, Nixon’s screwups had nothing like the catastrophic impact on the US geopolitical position that Chimpy’s have had, especially if you take the China opening into account. Also, the economic climate that Chimpy has enjoyed (and managed to screw up) has been so much better than what Nixon had to work with it isn’t even funny.

    Comparing him vs. Hillary is much more difficult. Nixon won elections and was able to have his way most of the time (until Watergate caught up with him) against entrenched opposition in Congress and the media at least as strong as what Bill Clinton faced.

    We don’t know much about how competently Hillary would govern if elected this year, but the way her campaign has been run thus far, and factoring in the 1993 health care debacle, I find it hard to see her being nearly as effective at getting her agenda passed (even with a slim majority in congress) as Nixon was at pushing his agenda in the teeth of a Congress controlled by the other party.

    YMMV.

  128. 128.

    JL

    Sorry to shout but HILLARY AGREED THAT MICHIGAN AND FLORIDA SHOULD NOT COUNT but that was before she was in a desparate situation. Sometimes life is like watching the Twilight Zone.

  129. 129.

    Morat20

    Look, the MI/FL situation is pretty simple.

    1) The rules might suck, and the rules might be screwing you, but if you agreed to the rules upfront then you’ve got no room to complain.
    2) Changing the rules in the middle, no matter who it benefits, is “cheating”. When you’re the one arguing the hardest to change the rules, when changing the rules benefits you the most, people are going to consider you a “Cheater”.
    3) It’s really, really, REALLY hard to make the case that rules set before the first vote were made to screw a specific candidate. It’s doubly hard to make that case when the candidate being screwed was the one who, when the votes were set, held all the power cards.

  130. 130.

    TR

    The Big Tent Democrat moniker makes perfect sense to me.

    Because he’s clearly pitching one for Hillary?

  131. 131.

    Tlaloc

    “Sorry to shout but HILLARY AGREED THAT MICHIGAN AND FLORIDA SHOULD NOT COUNT but that was before she was in a desparate situation. Sometimes life is like watching the Twilight Zone.”

    Yes everyone agreed. Everybody put on their stern faces and looked at Michigan and Florida in a very concerned and disappointed manner. Some even were moved to finger waggle.

    And the whole thing was a show.

    And what’s more everyone with half a clue knew it was a show. Nobody who’s paid attention to the democratic party in the last fifty years actually thought they’d piss away the 2008 election by kicking 44 electoral votes over to the GOp for free.

    You knew it too, even if you don’t want to admit it. Does anyone here doubt, particularly in light of the dem acions in the face of the Bush administration, that the dems cave in whenever political pressure is put on them? The GOP don’t even have to call the dems anti-troops just the mere threat that they _might_ call them that has sent the dems fleeing from any sort of ownership of the Iraq issue through the power of the purse.

    It was clear from day one that MI and FL would eventually get seated in some way. DAY ONE. Anyone saying otherwise needs to explain in detail the evidence that the dems were willing to stand up this one time for principle, because I’d *love* to hear it.

    So that out of the way- from the very beginning it was absolutely crystal clear that MI and FL would be seated. So please stop with the fake outrage. If you oppose them being seated in full, that’s fine. There’s a colorable argument for them only getting halfsies. If you want to argue for a revote you’ll find a great deal of support for the idea from people who aren’t obama supporters (and strangely almost none from those who are). But this idealist in a political world whining about the rules is just childish.

    Even if you want to cry “rules,” since the DNC *controls* the rules and they’re one of the parties trying to find a solution you are pissing in the wind. Please, please, please give it up.

  132. 132.

    capelza

    The rules might suck, and the rules might be screwing you, but if you agreed to the rules upfront then you’ve got no room to complain.

    My point is that did the actual voters agree upfront? Was there a referendum on the primaries being moved?

    I’d feel this way no matter who was benefitting from it…the voters got screwed.

    Just as screwed as by any Diebold machine that didn’t count their votes. Or is it the voters fault that those kinds of machines can fuck up or that certain polling stations didn’t have enough voting machines or the ballots were screwed up or whatever..

  133. 133.

    Rick Taylor

    Mantis:

    Is it possible that BTD/Armando has not been dishonestly shilling for Clinton, but has genuinely bought into the campaign’s rhetoric about Florida and Michigan

    Of course. I think his concern about counting the vote is genuine, at least I have no reason to doubt it. And it is reasonable to be appalled that Florida and Michigan voters are being disenfranchised, that’s why this is such a hot divisive issue. It’s just that, as has already has been hashed to death, Obama isn’t the one to blame for the impasse.

  134. 134.

    Morat20

    My point is that did the actual voters agree upfront? Was there a referendum on the primaries being moved?

    I’d feel this way no matter who was benefitting from it…the voters got screwed.
    Yes, they did. They elected representatives who made those decisions for them.

    They were completely represented. If they’re pissed, they should take it out on the people that screwed them. The ones in their state legislature.

    Jesus Christ, represenative democracy’s only been around 225 odd years here. Haven’t you grasped it yet?

  135. 135.

    Tlaloc

    “They were completely represented. If they’re pissed, they should take it out on the people that screwed them. The ones in their state legislature.”

    “Should” and “will” are two very different things in politics. Yes, they should just blame their local Dem parties but they won’t. They’ll blame the national party too.
    Now you might not care, that’s your perogative.

  136. 136.

    Morat20

    “They were completely represented. If they’re pissed, they should take it out on the people that screwed them. The ones in their state legislature.”

    “Should” and “will” are two very different things in politics. Yes, they should just blame their local Dem parties but they won’t. They’ll blame the national party too.
    Now you might not care, that’s your perogative

    If there’s one thing I’ve learned as a parent, is that you DON’T indulge a fit-throwing child in their whims. They’ll just repeat the bad behavior.

    I feel seating Florida and Michigan just because they’re throwing a tantrum because no one will make a special exception for them will simply encourage such stupid behavior.

    And frankly, from the polls I’ve seen, Michigan and Florida voters really don’t care that much.

  137. 137.

    Rick Taylor

    Tlaloc wrote:

    And what’s more everyone with half a clue knew it was a show. Nobody who’s paid attention to the democratic party in the last fifty years actually thought they’d piss away the 2008 election by kicking 44 electoral votes over to the GOp for free.

    This is the first nomination I’ve paid attention to, so I’m one of those people without half a clue you’re talking about. But if everyone knew the votes would be counted, why did four candidates attempt to remove their names from the ballot in Michigan? If I remember correctly, Obama, Edwards, and Richardson removed themselves from the ballot and Kucinich attempted to but filed the papers later. I don’t get why they would have done that if everyone new the votes were going to count; wouldn’t that have been electoral suicide? It seems like they at the very least, they didn’t think the results of the primaries would stand as they were, that there’d be caucuses or a do-over of some sort. Hillary even said on a radio show the results of Michigan weren’t going to count; I guess that was part of the show?

  138. 138.

    Conservatively Liberal

    “Sorry to shout but HILLARY AGREED THAT MICHIGAN AND FLORIDA SHOULD NOT COUNT but that was before she was in a desparate situation. Sometimes life is like watching the Twilight Zone.”

    Yes everyone agreed. Everybody put on their stern faces and looked at Michigan and Florida in a very concerned and disappointed manner. Some even were moved to finger waggle.

    And the whole thing was a show.

    And what’s more everyone with half a clue knew it was a show. Nobody who’s paid attention to the democratic party in the last fifty years actually thought they’d piss away the 2008 election by kicking 44 electoral votes over to the GOp for free.

    You knew it too, even if you don’t want to admit it. Does anyone here doubt, particularly in light of the dem acions in the face of the Bush administration, that the dems cave in whenever political pressure is put on them? The GOP don’t even have to call the dems anti-troops just the mere threat that they might call them that has sent the dems fleeing from any sort of ownership of the Iraq issue through the power of the purse.

    It was clear from day one that MI and FL would eventually get seated in some way. DAY ONE. Anyone saying otherwise needs to explain in detail the evidence that the dems were willing to stand up this one time for principle, because I’d love to hear it.

    So that out of the way- from the very beginning it was absolutely crystal clear that MI and FL would be seated. So please stop with the fake outrage. If you oppose them being seated in full, that’s fine. There’s a colorable argument for them only getting halfsies. If you want to argue for a revote you’ll find a great deal of support for the idea from people who aren’t obama supporters (and strangely almost none from those who are). But this idealist in a political world whining about the rules is just childish.

    Even if you want to cry “rules,” since the DNC controls the rules and they’re one of the parties trying to find a solution you are pissing in the wind. Please, please, please give it up.

    Shorter Tlaloc: Rules are for children, not adults.

    You sure have THE reasons and answers to everything Hillary, that is for sure. And all of it put together has about as much substance as a fart.

    It smells like one too.

  139. 139.

    ThymeZone

    the VOTERS in MI/FL were screwed over.

    Nope. They knew what was going on. I’m in Arizona and I knew what was going on. Nobody was screwed over by voting and thinking it would mean something that was clearly out of the question.

    As for whether the states themselves were screwed over, well, possibly … by their state parties who tried to be too cute by half. Tough shit, really. The parties organize under their own rules. If the people in those states are unhappy, then they should choose new party leadership in those states. That’s the democratic (small d) remedy, is it not?

  140. 140.

    Xanthippas

    It was clear from day one that MI and FL would eventually get seated in some way. DAY ONE. Anyone saying otherwise needs to explain in detail the evidence that the dems were willing to stand up this one time for principle, because I’d love to hear it.

    In some way, yes. That’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about Clinton arranging to get the delegates as she won them in sham primaries. If they were willing to split them 50/50 with Obama, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

    There’s a colorable argument for them only getting halfsies.

    “Colorable”? It’s the only decent argument.

    Also, thank you John for doing your part to piss off that jack-ass BTD. He’s one of the most annoying, obnoxious and insufferable liberal pricks allowed to write on a blog and it’s nice to see someone get under his skin. As for TalkLeft…they’re a joke. I once read their blog with some respect, but after dissing the Texas Dems (of which I happen to be one), playing Wright for all it’s worth and quoting (Honest-to-god QUOTING) that criminal Karl Rove, I’ve lost what little respect I had for them to begin with. Since I refuse to register to comment on anybody’s dumbass blog I’ve had to tell them how I feel about their anti-Obama posts (not pro-Hillary, and yes there is a difference) in emails they don’t see fit to reply or respond to. So on behalf of all of us little guys, thank you for getting under that bozo’s skin, and keep up the good work.

  141. 141.

    capelza

    They were completely represented. If they’re pissed, they should take it out on the people that screwed them. The ones in their state legislature.

    Jesus Christ, represenative democracy’s only been around 225 odd years here. Haven’t you grasped it yet?

    I agree, they should take it out on the legislators, and some will. I know I would.

    However, as I said, I believe the DNC went it about the wrong way. Instead of disenfranchising the voters, they should have said very plainly that ANY Dem that votes for this law will not get ANY hekp from the DNC. But no, they fucked the voters.

    Don’t confuse my defending the voters with defending Clinton. Really at this point, I am sick to death of both candidate’s followers, have been for months.

    The DNC is NOT a representative body in that sense, it makes it’s own rules. AS I said already, this goes back to ANY thing that keps a vote from counting.

  142. 142.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Tialoc, I’m pretty sure none of us has fallen and damaged our frontal cortex since yesterday when you made all the same arguments but I appreciate you checking back anyway.

  143. 143.

    capelza

    help not hekp..

    And TZ, you might have known about all the way in AZ, but you are a political junkie. I would have voted, even if they told me my vote didn’t count…because them telling me my vote doesn’t count would piss me off to no end…and I have written to the addy I get the nice Dean email from already about this.

  144. 144.

    Tlaloc

    “I feel seating Florida and Michigan just because they’re throwing a tantrum because no one will make a special exception for them will simply encourage such stupid behavior.”

    Sure, but the alternative is losing in 08. That 225 years of democracy you mentioned has proven one thing- it *is* the political system of spoiled brats.

    “And frankly, from the polls I’ve seen, Michigan and Florida voters really don’t care that much.”

    really? What polls are those? The ones I’ve show Florida Dems in the 25-30% range saying they’d be less likely to vote for the eventual nominee.

  145. 145.

    Liberal Masochist

    Tlaloc – you regularly post on a political blog. Your radio is tuned in to the primary frequency with the volume way up. Most of us are. The average voter does not care if their delegates are seated at the convention. Are Democrats in FLA or MI going to vote for McCain because their delegation is not seated??? That makes no sense at all. Are independents going to choose McCain because of this specific issue? Of course not. Primary turnout (even this year) is always lower than the general election. Not enough people care one way or the other for this to have any effect on the outcome of the general. Saying they are “pissing away” electoral votes to the GOP because of this issue is ridiculous.

  147. 147.

    Conservatively Liberal

    I read over at Kos that according to MSNBC, Hillary will not be releasing her March fundraising figures for awhile. She does have to report them, but she is going to push it to the deadline (from what I understand). If this is the case, can anyone guess why she may not be inclined to release them yet?

    ;)

    It must be the ‘cash is rolling in so fast that we do not want to boast about it‘ justification.

    Yeah, thats the ticket!

  149. 149.

    Rick Taylor

    “Should” and “will” are two very different things in politics. Yes, they should just blame their local Dem parties but they won’t. They’ll blame the national party too.
    Now you might not care, that’s your perogative.

    Well I do care about this. But then the question is what’s the right solution? I think a do-over of some sort is best, but we can’t force the state legislatures to make it happen, can we? I do think it would be good for Obama to come out at least rhetorically in favor of a re-do of some sort. I’m not saying he’s blocked the process, just that it would help his image if nothing else.

    It doesn’t make sense to seat the delegates as is; if we do, we should drop all pretense and announce all states can have their primaries whenever they like under whatever conditions they like, just make it a free-for-all. And of course after Obama was tricked into not campaigning in one state where Hillary had the lead and the name recognition and removing his name from the ballot on the other, no candidate would ever trust the DNC or cooperate with their decisions in similar matters again.

    It would have been better to penalize the states by half their delegates, and then at least Florida and Michigan Democrats would have no more reason to resent the party than Republicans who were so penalized, but that train left the station long ago.

    So I agree with you, but then what’s the solution? A revote would be best, but the Florida legislature has refused and it’s not looking likely in Michigan. But they’re out of our hands, we can’t make them hold caucuses.

    To me it seems the best solution is to push for a break through in Michigan (Florida seems determined not to do it), and then do our best to make it clear what actually happened, so that when voters take out they’re justifiable anger, it will be as much as possible against their representatives in the states that actually made this mess, and not the nominee who had very little to do with it. Now that’s not really satisfactory, but these seem to me to be the cards we’ve been dealt; if there’s another solution, I’d be glad to hear it.

  150. 150.

    Tlaloc

    Rick Taylor:
    ” But if everyone knew the votes would be counted, why did four candidates attempt to remove their names from the ballot in Michigan?”

    One of two options. Either A) they are really god damn naive (unlikely). Or B) they had an ulterior motive.

    For example it is common practice for a politician to not even bother to campaign in a state they are sure to lose. It lets them blow off the loss as “well I wasn’t even trying.” Taking your name off the ballot because of the supposed rules is one step better.

    Here’s a return question: *if you really thought there was any possibility of your delegates not being seated would you move up your state’s primary?* Answer is “no.” SO at the very minimum the legislature’s of LF and MI had a damn strong belief it was all a show.

    Conservatively Liberal:
    “Shorter Tlaloc: Rules are for children, not adults.”

    When it comes to politics? Hell yes. Again, it’s sweet the whole idealism thing, but it really clashes with politics. Like, a lot. Either wake up to the way the game is actually played (which is a hell of a lot more like Calvinball than tetherball) or get off the field.

    Xanthippas:
    “In some way, yes. That’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about Clinton arranging to get the delegates as she won them in sham primaries. If they were willing to split them 50/50 with Obama, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.”

    Seating them 50/50 is the same as not seating them. I have no great opinion of Florida or Michigan but _come on_, they aren’t *that* dumb.

    ““Colorable”? It’s the only decent argument.”

    If it’s the only decent argument then why the hell are Obama supporters fighting tooth and nail to prevent it?

    Fuckhead:
    “Tialoc, I’m pretty sure none of us has fallen and damaged our frontal cortex since yesterday when you made all the same arguments but I appreciate you checking back anyway.”

    Yeah, but in teaching you usually have to repeat things at least three times before the students actually get it.

    I’ll see you tomorrow! :P

  151. 151.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Now you might not care, that’s your perogative.

    concern troll is concerned.

    In concern troll’s defense, concern troll is not demanding that we be concerned about concern troll’s concerns but is acknowledging that we are permitted to be unconcerned.

    I think we are witnessing the evolution of a new species before our very eyes: the unconcern troll.

  152. 152.

    D-Chance.

    TR Says:

    The Big Tent Democrat moniker makes perfect sense to me.

    Because he’s clearly pitching one for Hillary?

    More like the Democrats are one big circus… just with more clowns.

  153. 153.

    Conservatively Liberal

    I think we are witnessing the evolution of a new species before our very eyes: the unconcern troll.

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! POTD!

  154. 154.

    Morat20

    really? What polls are those? The ones I’ve show Florida Dems in the 25-30% range saying they’d be less likely to vote for the eventual nominee.
    Color me scared. Quaking in my boots. Just like 30% of Clinton voters and 20% of Obama voters claim they won’t vote Democratic if their candidate loses.

    Please, if that actually happened George Bush wouldn’t have been elected in 2000 as all the pissed-off McCain supporters stayed home.

    I refuse to coddle the tantrums of Florida and Michigan. Their leaders broke the rules in an attempt to garner more influence. They felt it was certainly worth the gamble at the time, because they didn’t give two shits about delegates or actual representation at the convention — they cared about the personal attention early-voting states got. Because they figured they had more of a chance to seriously tilt the election that way.

    When that failed, they just shrugged and didn’t give a shit because it’d all be over by Super Tuesday and they’d given it their best shot. They still didn’t care about the convention.

    They care NOW because they see a second chance at the gold ring — they can affect the election now. They can be the deciders, the decision makers. So they whine, and cry, and kick their stubby little legs in a giant tantrum designed for a sole purpose: To gain the very thing they broke the rules trying to get.

    Seating them is not only failure to punish — it’s actively rewarding them for breaking the rules.

    Florida and Michigan can seat their delegates after the decision has been made. If any Florida or Michigan voters feel disenfranched because of that, I’d like to make a few points to them personally:

    1) Join the fucking club. Out of my entire life, my primary vote has actually mattered even the slightest once. This year. You’re no better of than, say, PA was for the last 50 years.

    2) Blame your elected representatives. They screwed you. Blaming anyone else is pointless, because no one else attempted to screw you.

    3) Stop whining. Seriously. No one cares. Even Hillary doesn’t care. Even BTD doesn’t care. NO ONE CARES. We don’t feel your pain, because you’re not hurt. You are, at worst, in the exact same vote that at least 60% of all primary voters have been in for cycle after cycle. Are the PA Republicans crying about how they’re disenfranchised because their vote is meaningless? No. Grow up.

    Seriously, I have no patience for such stupidity.

  155. 155.

    Bubblegum Tate

    the VOTERS in MI/FL were screwed over.

    What’s this about MILF voters getting screwed? Video?

  157. 157.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    I have no great opinion of Florida or Michigan but come on, they aren’t that dumb.

    They appear to be in a very tiny sliver of dumb between too dumb to know why they aren’t getting their delegates seated and not dumb enough to believe that having all their delegates seated, half to each candidate, is an equitable solution.

  158. 158.

    4tehlulz

    I refuse to coddle the tantrums of Florida and Michigan. Their leaders broke the rules in an attempt to garner more influence.

    The funny part is that if they stayed where they were, they would have had much more influence than after told the party to climb a wall of dicks.

    Let them BAWWWWWWWW. If FL and MI Democrats are stupid enough to not vote for the Democratic nominee in November, I hope they enjoy their McCain presidency — assuming they survive it.

  159. 159.

    Conservatively Liberal

    So they whine, and cry, and kick their stubby little legs in a giant tantrum designed for a sole purpose: To regain the very thing they once had but threw away broke by breaking the rules trying to get.

    Fixed.

  160. 160.

    some guy

    If Clinton is so concerned about getting MI and FL seated, she can just concede now. Then they’d be seated. It’s her continued, futile resistance that is preventing it.

  161. 161.

    Tlaloc

    Liberal Masochist:
    “Tlaloc – you regularly post on a political blog. Your radio is tuned in to the primary frequency with the volume way up. Most of us are.”

    No disagreement.

    “The average voter does not care if their delegates are seated at the convention.”

    The problem is the polling says otherwise. Now do I think that all the people that are currently pissed off about things will remain pissed off? No. But given the incredibly tightly polarized electorate you only need a couple percent in strategic places and we’re talking maybe 30% in florida.

    “Are Democrats in FLA or MI going to vote for McCain because their delegation is not seated???”

    All they have to do is not vote. That’s enough.

    “Primary turnout (even this year) is always lower than the general election. Not enough people care one way or the other for this to have any effect on the outcome of the general. Saying they are “pissing away” electoral votes to the GOP because of this issue is ridiculous.”

    Try a little experiment. Go to some town with a shitty home team. Doesn’t matter the sport. Now go to a sports bar. Loudly tell anyone who will listen that your from out of state and you’ve never seen such a shit-tastic team as the local one.

    guess what?

    People will get pissed. Even if they wouldn’t dream of buying season tickets. If you pay any attention to human psychology you know this is true far more often than false. People show solidarity with “their own” when attacked. Look at fucking 9/11. Bush’s popularity in the immediate aftermath was in the 90s,despite everything that happened during the 2000 election.

    So, yeah, it really doesn’t matter that primary turn out is lower than general election turn out. All that matters is the message “the dems don’t care about your state.”

  162. 162.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    It must be the ‘cash is rolling in so fast that we do not want to boast about it’ justification.

    Counting pennies is slow work.

  163. 163.

    Dennis - SGMM

    So, yeah, it really doesn’t matter that primary turn out is lower than general election turn out. All that matters is the message “the dems don’t care about your state.”

    That makes way more sense than “The Dems can’t create a winning strategy and stick with it.”

  164. 164.

    Tlaloc

    Morat:
    “I refuse to coddle the tantrums of Florida and Michigan.”

    Okay. But you do realize that they are going to be seated, right? I mean you understand that while you personally are willing to make this courageous stand the national and state parties don’t have your back, right?

    So long as you get that you’re Custer and the other side are the Sioux then we’re cool.

    “Seriously, I have no patience for such stupidity.”

    Then what the fuck are you doing commenting on politics?

  165. 165.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    If Clinton is so concerned about getting MI and FL seated, she can just concede now. Then they’d be seated. It’s her continued, futile resistance that is preventing it.

    Florida voters aren’t that dumb. They are a special kind of dumb that coincides neatly with Tialoc’s argument.

  166. 166.

    theturtlemoves

    You do realize that myiq2xu is a joke name, right?

    Yeah, but is it grown-up funny? It always struck me as something a middle school kid would think was totally hilarious, but seemed kind of sad in an ostensibly middle aged man.

  167. 167.

    Conservatively Liberal

    Florida has been a mess for many election cycles, and as far as I am concerned their Democratic leaders can take a long walk off a short pier. Polling on this issue is really a waste of time, IMO. Sure some people are going to be pissed about not having a say in the primary, but if they are stupid enough to sit out the general then they deserve whatever results from their inaction.

    Sorry, but I am not for pacifying a bunch of idiots who can not run a single election without it falling apart. Florida is a poster child for electoral incompetence. If I was Dean, I would be in the news saying that if the people of Florida and Michigan are pissed, then they need to take action against their state party leaders and representatives.

    I am sick and tired of the incessant “WAAH! WAAH! I FUCKED UP AND IT IS NOT MY FAULT! LET ME HAVE MY WAY OR I WILL MAKE YOUR LIFE MISERABLE!”

    Seat the delegates, split down the middle, and strip all super delegates from the two states. If Dean/DNC back down and seat them as is, it will set a poor precedent for the party.

    For some people, rules are rules, not something to worm your way around. But it seems more and more that American society is filling up with whiny babies who will throw a shit fit when they don’t get their way. Fuck them.

  168. 168.

    scrutinizer

    The problem is the polling says otherwise. Now do I think that all the people that are currently pissed off about things will remain pissed off? No. But given the incredibly tightly polarized electorate you only need a couple percent in strategic places and we’re talking maybe 30% in florida.

    Links to polls.

  169. 169.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    To me it seems the best solution is to push for a break through in Michigan (Florida seems determined not to do it), and then do our best to make it clear what actually happened, so that when voters take out they’re justifiable anger, it will be as much as possible against their representatives in the states that actually made this mess, and not the nominee who had very little to do with it. Now that’s not really satisfactory, but these seem to me to be the cards we’ve been dealt; if there’s another solution, I’d be glad to hear it.

    Rick, I understand this is nothing new. Delaware got frozen out once for moving it’s contest. Delegations have been declared invalid or otherwise not seated many times. You can go do the legwork on it. No one was dienfranchised then and no one is being disenfranchised now except HRC.

  170. 170.

    capelza

    Florida has been a mess for many election cycles, and as far as I am concerned their Democratic leaders can take a long walk off a short pier. Polling on this issue is really a waste of time, IMO. Sure some people are going to be pissed about not having a say in the primary, but if they are stupid enough to sit out the general then they deserve whatever results from their inaction.

    Sorry, but I am not for pacifying a bunch of idiots who can not run a single election without it falling apart. Florida is a poster child for electoral incompetence. If I was Dean, I would be in the news saying that if the people of Florida and Michigan are pissed, then they need to take action against their state party leaders and representatives.

    I agree that the pols should pay..and I have a question, will Dean and the DNC come in and back any of these pols if their is a tight election where the GOP might win?

    If so fuck him. If it’s okay to punish the voters, then it better be fucking okay to punish the people who mada this mess. But will that happen? Really?

  171. 171.

    Morat20

    Okay. But you do realize that they are going to be seated, right?

    If they hold a revote, or after the nominee is selected — yeah. No chance in hell they get seated as is, unless their seating is completely and utterly moot.

    You’ve obviously deluded yourself into thinking otherwise, and I wouldn’t dream of asking you to stop. It’s too fun to watch. My TV normally doesn’t get Bizarro-Earth. While you’re at it, grab some comics and let me know if Kryptonite makes Superman stronger over there.

  172. 172.

    Liberal Masochist

    Tlaloc – your sports analogy might hold up (generous use of might by the way) if you were comparing the attitude of the home team fans to a senate race or a local district race, but it falls apart for a presidential race.

    We have an extremely unpopular war, a crap economy where people are losing homes (very key in FLA by the way) and a sitting president with approval ratings that are like toxic waste to his party’s chances in November. This little convention seating squabble is peanuts compared to that. Peanuts might be an overstatement.

  173. 173.

    Adam

    They appear to be in a very tiny sliver of dumb between too dumb to know why they aren’t getting their delegates seated and not dumb enough to believe that having all their delegates seated, half to each candidate, is an equitable solution.

    Oh, it’s worse than that. The DNC even put in a safe-harbor rule (Rule 21, I believe) that lets the state party come up with different election rules before the primary to ensure they don’t get screwed by a legislature (I note with approval that no one is making the “they got screwed by the GOP legislature” arg, ’cause it’s wrong for this reason) — and the FL decided to take their toys and go home.

    They’ve had many, many opportunities to resolve this in a way that wasn’t completely moronic, but they decided to take their ball and go home — they’re probably happy right now that they can put the blame on Obama and the DNC. Hell, they’re getting whole orders of magnitude more press than they ever could have gotten from an early primary. Who’s talking about Iowa anymore? This is a gold mine.

  174. 174.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    I agree that the pols should pay..and I have a question, will Dean and the DNC come in and back any of these pols if their is a tight election where the GOP might win?

    If so fuck him. If it’s okay to punish the voters, then it better be fucking okay to punish the people who mada this mess. But will that happen? Really?

    What the fuck does one have to do with the other? They broke the rules, they got busted. The Florida and Michigan superdels also lost their superdelegate vote. Is Dean supposed to hold a deathgrudge now after the punishment has been applied to the crime?

  175. 175.

    ThymeZone

    I would have voted, even if they told me my vote didn’t count…because them telling me my vote doesn’t count would piss me off to no end

    Whatever, it would have been a protest vote, and you would not have been “screwed over” by voting. You would have been screwed over long before you voted.

    The idea that people trudged to the polls thinking that their votes would count and then being “screwed over” when they found out otherwise is just bunk. Only somebody who lived in a bubble, never read a paper or watched a tv news show could have misunderstood what was going on.

    The idea that only a political “junkie” in Arizona would know what was going on in Michigan is just one example of the totally silly nature of your arguments. Please, cut the nonsense, and get serious. Whining about complete made up “insults” to voters is not helping your cause, whatever that is.

  177. 177.

    Rick Taylor

    Tlaloc:

    I wrote:

    So I agree with you, but then what’s the solution? A revote would be best, but the Florida legislature has refused and it’s not looking likely in Michigan. But they’re out of our hands, we can’t make them hold caucuses.

    I just realized you already answered my question. The delegates will be seated in advance. Everyone knows it except for clueless newbies to the primary system like me. In fact everyone here knows it, even though they’re talking otherwise. So there’s no need to worry at all about offending the voters of Florida and Michigan, because it’s going to happen.

    I don’t buy it, but there’s no point arguing, we’ll find out soon enough. And if they are seated, especially if it makes a difference, I’ll remember you told me. Actually, I imagine they will be seated as soon as it’s clear seating them won’t change who the chosen nominee is one way or the other.

  178. 178.

    Adam

    No one was dienfranchised then and no one is being disenfranchised now except HRC.

    Nonsense! The story of disenfranchisement is what has her campaign on life support right now. Even if you gave her the percentage of the delegates she “won” in the FL and MI primaries as is she can’t catch up.

    Seriously, go muck around with Slate’s delegate calculator and try it. It’s the lack of new elections or seating the delegates that’s even keeping her in the race. It’s her pretext for staying in until the Convention.

  179. 179.

    Liberal Masochist

    This kind of piling on drove myiq away a few nights ago. Either that or Hillary really is having funding issues and hanging out on blogs and acting the contrarian for the sake of it is less fun when it is done pro bono.

    Perhaps Tlaloc should change his/her handle to “Straw Man” after this whacking.

  180. 180.

    theturtlemoves

    Florida’s inability to conduct an election frankly doesn’t surprise me, having just attended a tech conference in Orlando about a month ago. If the almost pathological inability to create decent road signs in a city that survives totally on tourism is any indication of governing prowess, I’m amazed they didn’t declare the state for a candidate running for president of an entirely different country back in ’00.

    I’m sure the people of Florida are fine, upstanding folk, but their government is a bit… off.

  181. 181.

    capelza

    TZ..it would have been a protest vote, sure..because someone “above” decided that my vote won’t count because some other tools screwed the pooch.

    See, what’s missing here…

    I could say that people in Ohio should never bitch about what happened in 04′ because they elected (though actually how many of them did..vote for the OH SoS?) and so they got what they deserved. He was their elected dude..so tuff shit if voting irregularities are proved. because it’s their fault, for having him as their representative…and stuff

    Because this is where this kind of argument leads, to my mind…

    But really, the emotions here aren’t about voters getting screwed but whether it’s Clinton or Obama getting the delgates. It would be a different story if it wasn’t. And that is just disgusting. Have at it you partisan darlings.

  182. 182.

    Tlaloc

    Morat:
    “If they hold a revote, or after the nominee is selected—yeah. No chance in hell they get seated as is, unless their seating is completely and utterly moot.”

    No way in hell, huh? Alrighty.

    Liberal Masochist:
    “We have an extremely unpopular war, a crap economy where people are losing homes (very key in FLA by the way) and a sitting president with approval ratings that are like toxic waste to his party’s chances in November. This little convention seating squabble is peanuts compared to that. Peanuts might be an overstatement.”

    In 2004 we were in an unpopular war, the president’s rating were less than stellar, and the economy wasn’t so great (although not as bad as now). Somehow Florida still voted for Bush. Bush’s rating are worse but bush himself isn’t running, and, much as I hate to admit it, McCain’s carefully honed maverick image is going to help him deflect a lot of “four more years” attacks.

    Oh, btw, if Florida hadn’t gone for Bush in 2004 then Kerry would have been president.

  183. 183.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Have at it you partisan darlings.

    I’m not partisan. I just don’t like you.

  184. 184.

    Adam

    To follow up — try this. Go to Slate’s calculator and give Clinton Florida and Michigan, and then give her 20-point wins in both and in every remaining primary except NC — Obama will probably take that by 20, but just for kicks make it 50-50. Guess who’s ahead? Hint: it’s not Clinton.

    Now, does anyone realistically think that Clinton will win PA, WV, IN, OR, Guam, PR, MT, and KY by over 20 point margins? (Anybody besides BTD, that is?)

    Or how about this: if Obama wins NC by 20, ties OR, and comes within 10 points in Pennsylvania, then even if we include FL/MI, and Clinton takes every other state by 20 point margins, and the DNC doesn’t give Obama any delegates from Michigan at all, Obama will still have the lead.

    Now ask yourself again whether this is really about revotes or if it’s about pretext.

  185. 185.

    Dennis - SGMM

    Have at it you partisan darlings.

    Pointing out the crying need for a “smug superiority” smiley face.

  186. 186.

    Tlaloc

    Rick:
    “Actually, I imagine they will be seated as soon as it’s clear seating them won’t change who the chosen nominee is one way or the other.”

    That’d be ideal in one sense, since it would seat the delegationg but still prevent Michigan and Florida from having a say in the matter. It’s obtuse enough that the common voters won’t get it but the party machinery will.

    The problem is that it doesn’t look like we’re going to get to a point where they won’t make a difference.

    Adam:
    “Nonsense! The story of disenfranchisement is what has her campaign on life support right now. Even if you gave her the percentage of the delegates she “won” in the FL and MI primaries as is she can’t catch up.”

    But the corollary is that it is pretty much impossible for Obama to win outright either. So you have a case of two very evenly matched campaigns, neither of which can win without super delegates.

  187. 187.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    To follow up—try this. Go to Slate’s calculator and give Clinton Florida and Michigan, and then give her 20-point wins in both and in every remaining primary except NC —Obama will probably take that by 20, but just for kicks make it 50-50. Guess who’s ahead? Hint: it’s not Clinton.

    That’s not the point Adam. The point is to split the party and presumably she’ll have the bigger half since a lot of Obama’s support is Independents and Republicans. :)

  188. 188.

    flyerhawk

    It would appear that someone has told Jeralyn that there is no Santa Claus

    Howard Dean on CNN tonight: There are only 2 ways Michigan and Florida delegates will be seated. One is if Hillary and Obama agree on a plan. The other is after the nominee is chosen when she or he will control the credentials committee.

    So it would appear that the Evil Dr. Dean is unwilling to give Hillary more net delegates in an uncontested race than she won in her home state, the 2nd largest state in the nation.

    Clearly the evil Doctor’s plan is coming to fruition.

    But Jeralyn has a plan to stop the DISENFRANCHISMENT! Convince the superdelegates to vote for Hillary REGARDLESS of who is winning. Yup, her solution to enfranchising the Florida and Michigan voters is to disenfranchise the voters of the other 48 states. Great plan, Jeralyn.

    Of course the whole point of seating the delegates in the first place is solely to convince the superdelegates to vote for her. So really Jeralyn is simply skipping a step in the process.

    BTW, where were all these disenfranchisement fighters back in 2004 when the race was over in March and my state, NJ, was left to vote either John Kerry or….. John Kerry? Or in 2000? Or in 1996? Or in 1992? Or in 1988? Or probably in every other primary but I couldn’t vote in the ones prior to that.

    I love the smell of democracy in the evening. It’s the smell of…… hypocrisy.

  189. 189.

    Laertes

    Actually, I imagine they will be seated as soon as it’s clear seating them won’t change who the chosen nominee is one way or the other.

    That was always the plan. Read articles about this from 2007. It was well understood that no matter the DNC’s wishes, the eventual nominee would control the credentials committee and seat the FL and MI delegations and smooth the whole thing over.

    What wasn’t forseen, at least by anyone I was reading, and clearly should have been, was that if HRC were to win FL and MI, she’d make such a huge stink about the bogus primaries.

    In hindsight, this is obvious. At the time, though, it was far-fetched. Obviously the nomination will be settled long before the end of the primary season, with or without FL. Hell, we’ll be lucky if it goes as far as Super Tuesday, and surely won’t last a week past that.

    And just as obviously, the FL and MI primaries count for little. Stripping them of their delegations doesn’t hurt much–they’ll still factor into the all-important game of perceptions and momentum even without delegates, but the no-campaigning pledge shuts them out of even that.

    What we failed to anticipate, though, was that once the FL and MI beauty contests were over, many supporters of the “winner” would obviously come to view them as legitimate contests. We failed to anticipate this because it was so obviously stupid. I remember my shocked reaction when Hillbots first started carping about seating MI and FL. It was such obviously outrageous bullshit that I didn’t believe the idea could possibly gain any traction.

    But if we’ve learned anything from the Republicans over the last couple decades, it’s that you can always define the center anywhere you like by simply moving your side’s goalpost. If you want people to accept bullshit, just demand double bullshit and they’ll go for it.

  190. 190.

    Tlaloc

    Flyerhawk:
    “But Jeralyn has a plan to stop the DISENFRANCHISMENT! Convince the superdelegates to vote for Hillary REGARDLESS of who is winning. Yup, her solution to enfranchising the Florida and Michigan voters is to disenfranchise the voters of the other 48 states. Great plan, Jeralyn.”

    How exacty is that disenfranchising anyone? Superdelegates are in no way shape or form required to vote for the popular victors from their state. If they were they’d simply be regular delegates. The whole point of superdelegates was to give the party machinery some significant say in the eventual nominee.

    Now you may think that’s BS (I happen to agree).

    By the way, haven’t seen you at swordscrossed in a while, FH. You should drop by.

  191. 191.

    Dennis - SGMM

    BTW, where were all these disenfranchisement fighters back in 2004 when the race was over in March and my state, NJ, was left to vote either John Kerry or….. John Kerry? Or in 2000? Or in 1996? Or in 1992? Or in 1988? Or probably in every other primary but I couldn’t vote in the ones prior to that.

    I’ll drink to that. Until this year, my state’s (California) primary was in June. The sight of Californians pouring into the streets, tearing their hair and rending their garments over their disenfranchisement was heartbreaking.

  192. 192.

    cleek

    It’s obtuse enough that the common voters won’t get it but the party machinery will.

    oh those stupid stupid commoners. why won’t they heed the advice of a deeply concerned wise man like Tlaloc, the Aztec god of rain, fertility and water ?

  193. 193.

    Tlaloc

    Laertes:
    “What wasn’t forseen, at least by anyone I was reading, and clearly should have been, was that if HRC were to win FL and MI, she’d make such a huge stink about the bogus primaries.”

    I think what wasn’t forseen was that we’d still have a closely contested primary in April (and one that looks to continue to be contested all the way through June).

    That’s where the plot broke down. Can’t have the winner sweep in to seat them if there is no winner…

  194. 194.

    capelza

    Pointing out the crying need for a “smug superiority” smiley face.

    Hell yeah. the sad thing is that I’m going to vote for Obama in my primary.

    And yet I STILL think the voter are being punished for the sins of their reps. That sucks. And has anyone answered me..will the pols themsleves be punished by the DNC if push comes to shove…

    But I have to tell ya..some of you Obama people are being complete jackasses. Really total jackasses. It isn’t just Clinton supporters.

    McCain…

  195. 195.

    Liberal Masochist

    Tlaloc – Sorry, but your argument does not hold up. You have no idea of context or degree.

    Relative to now, the 2004 economy was positively humming along. Things will be worse this year come election day in my opinion. As for the war, it was not nearly as unpopular as it is now. Not even close. We were only 18 months in at that point and the president was an incumbent. Looking back, it’s obvious Iraq has been a complete screw-up, but back then, loads of people had the blinders on. How many “support the troops” car magnets do you see now compared to Oct. 2004? The message those stickers sent was much greater than the nominal sentiment expressed on them.

  196. 196.

    Laertes

    I said:

    At the time, though, it was far-fetched. Obviously the nomination will be settled long before the end of the primary season, with or without FL. Hell, we’ll be lucky if it goes as far as Super Tuesday, and surely won’t last a week past that.

    Tlaloc, in direct response:

    I think what wasn’t forseen was that we’d still have a closely contested primary in April (and one that looks to continue to be contested all the way through June).

    What the hell, dude? How about you read the stuff you’re responding to, instead of reading the first 1/4, and dashing off a response assuming that there’s nothing in the remaining 3/4?

    I mean, shit. I’m just some dumbass on teh intarwebs. I don’t expect people mostly to reply to me at all. But if you do, sack up and engage properly.

  197. 197.

    Rarely Posts

    Sorry to shout but HILLARY AGREED THAT MICHIGAN AND FLORIDA SHOULD NOT COUNT

    Where did she agree to that?

  198. 198.

    Laertes

    And yet I STILL think the voter are being punished for the sins of their reps. That sucks. And has anyone answered me..will the pols themsleves be punished by the DNC if push comes to shove…

    You’re absolutely right. The voters of FL are being punished for something their reps did. Then again, this is a Republic. Voters are morally responsible for the conduct of their elected representatives. That’s sort of the whole point.

    And yes, anticipating the obvious reply, yes that means I accept responsibility for George W. Bush. I didn’t vote for him, but my countrymen did, and with them I share collective responsibility for him and what he’s done.

  199. 199.

    flyerhawk

    Tlaloc,

    My problem with Jeralyn’s argument is her clear desire to get Hillary elected no matter what. She isn’t interested in fairness or democracy or what’s good for the party or the country. She wants Hillary to be elected President.

    If she simply said “I want Hillary to win and I don’t care how” I could at least respect the honesty. Instead she wishes to paint herself as someone who is simply doing the right thing, which is utter B.S.

    I don’t think that appealing to the SDs will have ANY impact at all. Once the primaries are over they will publicly endorse Obama. They certainly won’t care what some lawyer from Colorado or Hillary fan from Wisconsin has to say. They will care what the party leadership will say and they will say “lower the boom” once the primaries have ended.

    What’s funny is that Dean didn’t say anything earth shattering. Either the 2 candidates come up with a deal or it will be settled by the candidate with the delegate lead going into August. This is fairly obvious and there is NOTHING that Dean can do to change this even if he wanted to. Jeralyn is simply having a tantrum because she thinks that the DNC has magical powers to seat Fl and MI as is. They don’t.

    P.S. – I do need to swing on over to Swords Crossed sometime. I haven’t been there in a while. I hope you and Brendan have been keeping Ender in line?

  200. 200.

    Adam

    But the corollary is that it is pretty much impossible for Obama to win outright either. So you have a case of two very evenly matched campaigns, neither of which can win without super delegates.

    That’s actually not entirely true either; even assuming that the supers don’t break for the popular vote winner or the delegate winner — which will almost certainly be Obama — and even if you assume that none switch sides and Clinton maintains her current 30-delegate margin in supers, then based on the current averages on pollster.com and giving the benefit of the doubt to Clinton on the numbers, Obama only needs about 120 supers. Hillary needs about 220. There’s only about 316 unpledged remaining, so Hillary would have to win the supers by a 70% margin from here on out to take the nomination if she can’t get Florida and Michigan.

    But since she barely pulls even with Obama in pledged state delegates even under the most charitable scenario (getting FL and MI seated with the current delegates and preventing any Michigan delegates from going for Obama at all), she’d still have to win a majority of the remaining, unpledged supers (remember, over half are pledged already). That’s their best case scenario. That’s a really tall order, especially considering that they’re not exactly breaking her way right now anyway.

  201. 201.

    AkaDad

    Considering how Hillary has run her campaign, she’s completely changed my mind about her. As of today, I wholeheartedly support Hillary for President.

  202. 202.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    The sight of Californians pouring into the streets, tearing their hair and rending their garments over their disenfranchisement was heartbreaking.

    I don’t think that justified tearing Reginald Denny out of his truck and beating him almost to death. It’s not his fault he looks like Terry McAuliffe.

    I’m in Virginia and this is the first time I can remember our primary not counting. But I’m still gonna vote in the general, lord and diebold willing.

  203. 203.

    capelza

    California disenfranchised? With that delegate count? Try Oregon…heh. We barely even count in the general.

    Ours isn’t for another month, who cares about what we think. I was hoping that we might actually make a differnce this year…oh well..same as it ever was.

    I still think all the primaries need to go back to the older dates. This is all ridiculous, NH and Iowa included…

    It’s stupid.

  204. 204.

    Dennis - SGMM

    I don’t think that justified tearing Reginald Denny out of his truck and beating him almost to death. It’s not his fault he looks like Terry McAuliffe.

    Little known is the fact that he first rolled down his window and yelled, “Your votes don’t count, you bastards!”

  205. 205.

    Adam

    We barely even count in the general.

    Oh, whatever. You’re a swing state. I wish I could still vote in OR instead of in TX.

  206. 206.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Little known is the fact that he first rolled down his window and yelled, “Your votes don’t count, you bastards!”

    HAHAH!

  207. 207.

    Adam

    And Oregon does count this year — certainly more than most years. You got the best of both worlds this time around. You might not have many delegates, but neither Clinton nor Obama is ignoring Oregon.

  208. 208.

    Dennis - SGMM

    California disenfranchised? With that delegate count?

    The Democrats take us for granted – other than using the state as an ATM. The Republicans ignore us – other than using the state as an ATM.

    Kerry campaigned more in Ohio than he did in California. It was ever thus. I’m not bitching, that’s just the way it is.

  209. 209.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    I’d love to see the primary order determined by the previous cycle’s participation. So if New Hampshire had 60% turnout and that was the most, they could go first next time. If Idaho had 30% turnout, they’d be going last or wherever that put them. I know there’d have to be equalizing factors considered for the various types of contests but I think this would encourage the states to turn out as many voters as possible and accordingly grow the party.

  210. 210.

    DougJ

    Yeah, but is it grown-up funny?

    Yes, I think it is. It’s making fun of the arrogant, smarter-than-thou commenter we see at so many blogs.

  211. 211.

    cleek

    Sorry to shout but HILLARY AGREED THAT MICHIGAN AND FLORIDA SHOULD NOT COUNT

    Where did she agree to that?

    the DNC had already decided, independently of the candidates, that FL and MI would not count. Clinton, Edward and Obama then agreed not to campaign there, given that the delegates wouldn’t be seated anyway.

    if Hillary thought FL and MI should count, the time for her to disagree was then not now. if she thought the DNC was wrong, she had ample opportunity to say so. she didn’t – it’s glaringly obvious she didn’t. you know it, i know it, everybody knows it.

    it’s over. quit playing obtuse.

  212. 212.

    Dennis - SGMM

    I’d love to see the primary order determined by the previous cycle’s participation.

    It would take some tweaking but it seems like a really good, sensible idea. So the chances of its being adopted are somewhere between slim and none.

  213. 213.

    sparky

    as a Florida voter, i don’t see the point in all this arguing. the delegation will be seated, eventually. the only question here is whether the allocation will be based on the beauty contest. what i don’t understand is why no one has figured out that the reason there was no do-over in Florida is that the FDP is aligned with Clinton. yes, i know there was noise about doing one. did anyone actually look at the list of preconditions Thurman specified? i did, and they are pretty damn well impossible to meet. so this was all a sham–gaming out the idea that yes we must have “democracy” but since, gee whiz, it’s just not possible to have a redo of the kind of vote that we want, we’ll just have to accept the beauty contest, err primary results.

    i am surprised that this hasn’t been picked up. i wish the FDP was as competent at getting D votes as it is screwing around with the national campaigns. sigh.

    ps: anyone who thinks that the average Florida voter is going to change his or her presidential vote on the basis of how, exactly, the DNC seated the Florida delegation three months before the election in Denver needs to get out more.

  214. 214.

    theturtlemoves

    It’s making fun of the arrogant, smarter-than-thou commenter we see at so many blogs.

    Ah, I see you’re argument. I think it would have been more effective as humor if the comments of the commenter in question hadn’t veered into the territory they often did, then. Unless his entire shtick was some brilliant Andy Kaufman as Tony Clifton thing. If that’s the case, then hat’s off to him.

  215. 215.

    capelza

    Adam Says:
    And Oregon does count this year—certainly more than most years. You got the best of both worlds this time around. You might not have many delegates, but neither Clinton nor Obama is ignoring Oregon.

    This IS true..I had wanted to go see Obama when he was here, but it was too far.

    I do remeber when RFK came to Oregon, right before the CA primary victory. He didn’t win, if I remember correctly (I was not quite 12), but he came nonetheless. Back when the California primary was in JUNE, not freakin’ February.

  216. 216.

    theturtlemoves

    I drove by the Eugene, OR Obama event at 4:30 or so to see if I wanted to come back later with my wife and son, but there was already a line stretching several blocks then and the speech didn’t start until 9:30. So, I didn’t go back. My son was pretty excited, too, so it was disappointing, but sitting on a sidewalk for for five hours with a hyperactive ten year old didn’t sound like fun.

  217. 217.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    It’s making fun of the arrogant, smarter-than-thou commenter we see at so many blogs.

    Ah.. see what I was picking up was that he is an arrogant smarter-than-thou commenter, but I was just going by what he said.

    If he ever shows up again, I’ll have to reevaluate.

  218. 218.

    Dennis - SGMM

    Ah.. see what I was picking up was that he is an arrogant smarter-than-thou commenter, but I was just going by what he said.

    I think that a lot of what he was doing was shtick but he would occasionally get carried away in the heat of battle and piss people off. When he wasn’t “on” he was pretty funny.

  219. 219.

    theturtlemoves

    Ah.. see what I was picking up was that he is an arrogant smarter-than-thou commenter, but I was just going by what he said.

    Yeah, I wasn’t really too convinced of the Tony Clifton angle myself, but thought I’d be magnanimous. I really don’t think our dear departed friend was nearly that clever. I was pretty surprised by the GBCW post, to be honest. The dude seemed to thrive on saying deliberately provocative things then playing the innocent victim. Wow, the parallels between a politician and her supporters never end, do they?

  220. 220.

    PeterJ

    I’d love to see the primary order determined by the previous cycle’s participation.

    I see one major flaw, states that would hold their primaries after a nominee was picked wouldn’t be able get the same participation as early states voting before the nominee gets picked.

  221. 221.

    theturtlemoves

    So, here’s a question for the regulars since I’m new to actually posting, having lurked for nigh on two years now. Can I throw in html code beyond what’s in the handy little buttons. I’m tired of my posts jamming up against the timestamp at the bottom and would like to throw in a couple breaks. Actually, let me try it and answer my own question.

  222. 222.

    John S.

    Sorry to shout but HILLARY AGREED THAT MICHIGAN AND FLORIDA SHOULD NOT COUNT

    Where did she agree to that?

    Excellent point.

    Of course, to infer that the inverse of that statement is true requires some pretty heavy parsing of what it means to NOT PARTICIPATE in the primaries of MI and FL – which is what Hillary agreed to do.

    But hey, you’re in the tank for Hillary so I don’t expect little details like that to derail your thought process.

  223. 223.

    jenniebee

    /sigh – bet Edwards is kicking himself these days for dropping out too early.

  224. 224.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    Tlaloc says:

    Conservatively Liberal:
    “Shorter Tlaloc: Rules are for children, not adults.”

    When it comes to politics? Hell yes. Again, it’s sweet the whole idealism thing, but it really clashes with politics. Like, a lot. Either wake up to the way the game is actually played (which is a hell of a lot more like Calvinball than tetherball) or get off the field.

    Tlaloc,

    This attitude of yours – “if the rules don’t say what I want, then fuck the rules, cause rules are for pussies and losers” is a core principle of the Bush Administration, and has been responsible for much of the damage caused during the last 7 years, which the next President will need to repair (assuming we don’t get McCain, who wants to make things worse).

    Why on earth should Democrats give our time and treasure and sweat to put someone in the White House who will perpetuate this attitude?

    We don’t want or need a Democratic party branded clone of this mindset, and the more you and other Clinton supporters push this point, the more people you convince that putting Hillary in the WH would be a very bad idea for both the nation and the party, and at best would get nothing accomplished over the next 4 years while serving to discredit the policies we are trying to support by linking them in the public mind with a revolting level of cynicism and corruption.

    Give it a rest. You might have had something resembling a case if your candidate had shown some trace of concern for voter enfranchisement issues at some other time or place, such as:

    (a) at an earlier point during this primary campaign when it wasn’t obvious that Hillary has to have FL and MI to survive,

    or

    (b) in some other state where it isn’t a such a blatantly obvious case of self-interest on her part, comically dressed up in mock-righteous disguise,

    or

    (c) at some earlier point during Hillary’s Senate career when her support would have been helpful and useful, such as when the netroots was screaming up and down about electronic voting, GOP caging, voter ID laws based on bogus GOP concern trolling for nonexistent voter fraud.

    or

    (d) the HRC campaign hadn’t just spent the last round of caucuses in Texas doing everything they possibly could to cheat the Obama supporters there in a manner so cynical that it drove some of the participants there to shake their fists in rage at the Clinton operatives responsible.

    Sadly, you have none of those things.

    Nothing.

    So please stop. You are making a pathetic spectacle of yourself acting like such a transparent tool.

    If Hillary is going to win, she will have to do it without MI and FL. No thanks to Hillary, the same can probably be said of our nominee in the general election in November, a situation which has been created NOT by Obama, but by Hillary who has repeatedly taken potshots at the national Democratic party organization because her ego and her campaign are more important to her than the national party and the success of the eventual nominee.

    We’ve already seen what that kind of ego-driven and delusional thinking can do in the WH courtesy of Chimpy.

    Hillary should STFU now on this MI / FL issue and start acting like she wants to be the next Democratic president, not the next George W. Bush imitator.

    And if you can’t understand this, because “my rules or no rules at all” are the only kind that you understand, then guess what, you’ve made yourself a poster boy for the mindset that led to the Bush years. You’re not a part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.

  225. 225.

    Rick Taylor

    cleek wrote:

    the DNC had already decided, independently of the candidates, that FL and MI would not count. Clinton, Edward and Obama then agreed not to campaign there, given that the delegates wouldn’t be seated anyway.

    John S wrote:

    Of course, to infer that the inverse of that statement is true requires some pretty heavy parsing of what it means to NOT PARTICIPATE in the primaries of MI and FL – which is what Hillary agreed to do.

    Just to speed things up, we’ve already been through this on a previous thread. At some point, it’s not worth arguing anymore, you just have to admit you don’t see eye to eye. If you’re talking with Rarely Posts, you can point out that after the DNC ruled not to seat the delegates, none of the candidates objected, and all of the candidates signed statements not to campaign or participate in the early primaries. You can point out that none of the candidates suggested the delegates from the contested primaries would be seated before the nominee was chosen. You can even point out that Hillary said, “”Well, you know, It’s clear, this election they’re having is not going to count for anything.”

    However, Rarely Posts is right. As I said in my first point in this matter, Hillary did not say, “Simon says,” she did not sign a document saying the specific words, “I agree that the early primaries in Florida and Michigan will not count, and I will not instigate a convention fight to seat them in order to win the nomination.” Now you may agree with me that this is a fair interpretation what she agreed to given the full context. You may feel, as I do, that agreeing not to participate in a primary, saying in public that of course the results won’t count for anything, then leaving your name on the ballot and declaring victory over your opponent who foolishly removed his name from the ballot, and then attempting to seat the delegates from that primary, and arguing that this does not violate the letter or spirit of your agreement by interpreting “participate” in the narrowist possible sense is a manipulative use of language to the point of deception, something the Clintons are renowned for (though I never appreciated it until now). Nonetheless, Hillary never signed an agreement saying she wouldn’t do that specifically (she did make a statement on the radio the Michigan primary wouldn’t count, but that’s a public statement not an agreement). Presumably in the future the DNC will make any such agreements far longer and more detailed to spell out such things in a lawyerly manner.

    The facts of what happened are not in dispute, only the interpretation, and beyond a certain point when the parties disagree about the interpretation, there’s nothing to do but to agree to disagree. So if you discuss things with Rarely Posts, I recommend you avoid saying Hillary agreed the delegates would not count, as she did not say those specific words. You can say she said the Michigan delegates would not count, since she did on the radio. You can say she agreed not to participate in the primaries, and that you personally feel that that should naturally preclude arranging to count the delegates resulting (how does one declare victory in a primary one did not “participate” in?), but Rarely Posts disagrees on this point, and I don’t see how you’ll convince him. The facts of what happened are not in dispute, only the interpretation.

  226. 226.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    I see one major flaw, states that would hold their primaries after a nominee was picked wouldn’t be able get the same participation as early states voting before the nominee gets picked.

    They won’t vote for us in the general anyway. Fuck ’em.

  228. 228.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    and I don’t see how you’ll convince him.

    Her.

    I could be wrong but I have pretty amazing gendar.

  229. 229.

    Conservatively Liberal

    What I find interesting is the Clintonista logic that since neither Hillary or Obama can win with the pledged delegates, then that means that they are tied. And if they are tied, then Hillary should be given the win by the super delegates.

    If the shoe was on the other foot, you can bet that they would see things our way…lol

  230. 230.

    Rick Taylor

    Laertes:

    What we failed to anticipate, though, was that once the FL and MI beauty contests were over, many supporters of the “winner” would obviously come to view them as legitimate contests. We failed to anticipate this because it was so obviously stupid. I remember my shocked reaction when Hillbots first started carping about seating MI and FL. It was such obviously outrageous bullshit that I didn’t believe the idea could possibly gain any traction.

    Thanks. That was helpful, and a good summary of events.

  231. 231.

    A.Political

    theturtlemoves Says:
    What kind of person would call himself “Big Tent Democrat”?
    Probably the same kind of person who would imply that he was twice as smart as everyone else with his moniker; see myiq2xu.
    —

    Yeah, I almost did a full parody of his myiq2xu but stopped at myed2x for my account over there…I’m just waiting for them to delete my account, but flickr et al are ready.

  232. 232.

    zzyzx

    I actually have been posting for about a month at TL, giving Obama’s POV and haven’t had any trouble. So it is possible, if difficult.

  233. 233.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    What we failed to anticipate, though, was that once the FL and MI beauty contests were over, many supporters of the “winner” would obviously come to view them as legitimate contests. We failed to anticipate this because it was so obviously stupid. I remember my shocked reaction when Hillbots first started carping about seating MI and FL. It was such obviously outrageous bullshit that I didn’t believe the idea could possibly gain any traction.

    Thanks. That was helpful, and a good summary of events.

    Actually, you forgot the part where she flew into Florida that night to pick up her prize.

  234. 234.

    Rick Taylor

    zzyzx:
    Has Big Tent ever explained how Obama blocked the revote in Florida and Michigan? He keeps saying that (and uses that to justify seating the delegates as is), but I’ve never seen him spell out why.

  235. 235.

    shouldbedoingworknow

    I think the main force behind the deleting of comments is jeralyn rather than BTD. That’s my hunch anyway – I could be wrong about this. Jeralyn imo seems to have gone a bit overboard with her pro-Hillary bias. A week or so ago, she wrote a post where she said she didn’t want to hear any comments about what either of the candidates did or thought 5 years ago (by which she meant, she didn’t want to hear about Obama’s speech against the war during the months leading up to this hideous mess we now find ourselves in Iraq). That sort of comment on her part suggests to me that she’s trying to exert control over what gets said on her site.

    BTD claims to be a “tepid Obama supporter”. This may very well be the case, but over the past couple of months especially, he seems much quicker to hold forth on Obama’s faults and comment on stories that reflect poorly on Obama than he is to say much negative about Clinton. Alot of times, when there is a story that reflects poorly on Hillary getting some play in the media, neither BTD or Jeralyn sees fit to write a diary about it. You can hear crickets chirping.

  236. 236.

    zzyzx

    BTW, it looks like MyDD just had a purge of the worst Clinton transgressors. TalkLeft might have an influx now.

  238. 238.

    Rick Taylor

    Now get back to your busy schedule of praising Fox news while telling everyone that Obama is a lying liar stealth muslim misogynist but you intend to support him anyway. And really, don’t you have comments to be deleting?

    Alright, I’m going to defend Talk Left here. I think the reference to deleting comments is a cheap shot. Reading the example of the comment that was deleted, I see “If you’re going to argue THIS way, you’re way beyond the bend.” Now it’s one thing to argue a position, it’s another to say, you’re just a dummy if you don’t agree with me. That’s a personal attack.

    Now that may be difficult to appreciate on this blog where it’s no holds barred, but if Talk Left wants to hold up that standard in his blogs I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. Actually, I read through the discussions and it was very pleasant reading because everyone was sticking to arguing positions and there was just about nothing personal. And there were people arguing Obama’s position. So I think he’s getting knocked unfairly here. Unless someone has an example of Hillary supporters calling people doodyhead and getting away unscathed.

  239. 239.

    Martin

    For the Floridians, start recalling this guy:

    And Jeremy Ring, a Democratic state senator from Broward County and co-sponsor of the legislation, defended it.

    “If the choice is Florida is relevant and has no delegates versus being irrelevant and having delegates, I’d choose being relevant with no delegates,” Ring said. “We did this so 18 million Floridians could take part in the presidential primaries, not so a few hundred people can go to a party in Denver.”

    And as for the revote option:

    I’m glad that the party has reached the same conclusion that was reached by the congressional delegation a week ago,” said U.S. Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, D-Florida.

    A supporter of Sen. Hillary Clinton, Wasserman Schultz had staunchly opposed a re-vote.

    (Schultz is Clinton’s Florida Chair). That line is just a reiteration of Clinton’s:

    On a “do-over” in Florida and Michigan, which held nominating contests that broke Democratic Party rules
    I would not accept a caucus. I think that would be a great disservice to the 2 million people who turned out and voted. I think that they want their votes counted. And you know a lot of people would be disenfranchised because of the timing and whatever the particular rules were. This is really going to be a serious challenge for the Democratic Party because the voters in Michigan and Florida are the ones being hurt, and certainly with respect to Florida the Democrats were dragged into doing what they did by a Republican governor and a Republican Legislature. They didn’t have any choice whatsoever. And I don’t think that there should be any do-over or any kind of a second run in Florida. I think Florida should be seated.

    That’s Clinton being interviewed by US News this month. She knows the ‘dragged into doing this’ is a lie. Everyone in the DNC knows it’s a lie – especially McAuliffe and Ickes.

  240. 240.

    Martin

    On electability, Gallup does polls now!

    The survey was conducted March 24-27, interviewing a nationally representative sample of 1,005 Gallup Panel members. Democrats were asked whether Clinton or Obama has the better chance of defeating McCain in November: 59% say Obama does; 30% say Clinton. Republicans were asked whether McCain has a better chance of defeating Clinton or Obama on Election Day. Sixty-four percent say McCain has a better chance of beating Clinton, compared with only 22% choosing Obama, meaning Republicans view Obama as the more formidable candidate.

    Not even close, either by Dems or Republicans.

  241. 241.

    John S.

    The facts of what happened are not in dispute, only the interpretation.

    It’s a fair cop.

  242. 242.

    Adam

    I see one major flaw, states that would hold their primaries after a nominee was picked wouldn’t be able get the same participation as early states voting before the nominee gets picked.

    The way to solve this would be to make the “super-early” slots open to the states with the highest turnout — instead of Iowa, NH, SC, just allocate the first 3 (or however many) based on who had the best turnout. The rest of the states could schedule as per the current system.

  243. 243.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Alright, I’m going to defend Talk Left here. I think the reference to deleting comments is a cheap shot.

    Enough with the Dan Abrams shit already. We allow license for snark.

  244. 244.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    The way to solve this would be to make the “super-early” slots open to the states with the highest turnout—instead of Iowa, NH, SC, just allocate the first 3 (or however many) based on who had the best turnout. The rest of the states could schedule as per the current system.

    No need to solve it. A candidate on the ballot isn’t the only reason they should come out and vote. They have to come out and vote so they can make their state relevant next cycle. If that isn’t enough to coax them out, then they deserve to be last.

  245. 245.

    theturtlemoves

    Yeah, I almost did a full parody of his myiq2xu but stopped at myed2x for my account over there…

    If you want to push the parody into either surreal or childish territory, depending on how you look at it, call yourself, say, Big Top Democrat. Then attempt to turn every thread into a discussion of how many clowns you can fit into a car, preferably with a dig at Obama’s disenfranchisement of the clown voting bloc. Include odes to Hillary’s ability to dodge sniper fire while walking a tightrope carrying a tiger on her back. It’s comedy gold, I tell you.

  246. 246.

    Conservatively Liberal

    Regarding the MyDD purge, ‘Universal’ (also says real name is ‘Paul F. Villarreal’) was talking to people at Hillaryis44 about his diary at MyDD that had the Wright/911/Obama video clip on it, and he was boasting that it was linked to by “RedState, Townhall, Free Republic, and a number of other right-leaning sites“. Then he posts after that and complains that his MyDD account was purged and his diaries were deleted.

    I bet the MyDD people are proud that they have been directly feeding the freepers and wing nuts campaign material to use against Obama.

    Helping the enemy to knock you down, now that is progressive thinking!

  247. 247.

    Conservatively Liberal

    Here ya go, a tip from Hillaryis44! Time magazine is asking if it is time for Hillary to drop out, so go give this poll on their main page a ‘happy ending’ that only an expert at from BJ can give!

    ;)

  248. 248.

    Royston Vasey

    mattt Says:
    “po, po Hillary”

    Nah, its not Po Po, its Laa-Laa or possibly just Po.
    Of course, don’t forget Dipsy and Tinky Winky
    eh-oh!

  249. 249.

    MNPundit

    Armando lost his mind when he was “outed” at DKos. He’s never looked back since.

    You know things are FUBAR extra-crispy when Matt Stoller and Amanda Marcotte sound like the voice of reason.

  250. 250.

    TenguPhule

    Dear Hillary,

    Pay your bills, you fucking deadbeat. Then go away.

    -America

    Dear McCain,

    Go to Iraq and be a hero.

    -The World

  251. 251.

    Cain

    The facts of what happened are not in dispute, only the interpretation, and beyond a certain point when the parties disagree about the interpretation, there’s nothing to do but to agree to disagree. So if you discuss things with Rarely Posts, I recommend you avoid saying Hillary agreed the delegates would not count, as she did not say those specific words. You can say she said the Michigan delegates would not count, since she did on the radio. You can say she agreed not to participate in the primaries, and that you personally feel that that should naturally preclude arranging to count the delegates resulting (how does one declare victory in a primary one did not “participate” in?), but Rarely Posts disagrees on this point, and I don’t see how you’ll convince him. The facts of what happened are not in dispute, only the interpretation.

    The outrage at least on this site is a reaction to precisely this kind of parsing. Further outrage is generated when this is pointed out or other examples given, Clinton supporters get defensive. If you want to improve the level of politics then you need to draw the line that this kind of stuff is no longer acceptable. Divide and conquer attacks only hurt the party and in general hurts the country since we have no unity.

    Obama isn’t perfect, but he’s running a clean campaign for the most part. His attacks are not personal, he tries to stick with the issues.

    Anyways.. carry on wayward son.

    cain

  252. 252.

    zsa

    ps: anyone who thinks that the average Florida voter is going to change his or her presidential vote on the basis of how, exactly, the DNC seated the Florida delegation three months before the election in Denver needs to get out more.

    This is very true. The convention is an excuse for the Democratic party bigshots to go get loaded and screw around on their spouses. Other than that, no actual voter is going to give a damn how the nominee was selected.

  253. 253.

    cleek

    Just to speed things up, we’ve already been through this on a previous thread.

    frankly. as soon as you get the urge to type either “FL” or “MI”, there’s really strong chance we’ve been through what you’re about to say.

  254. 254.

    Rarely Posts

    PARTICIPATE in the primaries of MI and FL – which is what Hillary agreed to do.

    Obama also participated in the FL primaries.

  256. 256.

    Conservatively Liberal

    Obama did not ‘participate’ in Florida any more than having his name on the ballot. Hillary actually went to Florida to declare ‘victory’, which just about left everyone flabbergasted. It was clear that the move was an act of desperation on her part. It was a calculated move, like her figuratively crossing her fingers in signing the agreement. This, combined with her Bosnia “story”, clearly shows that she is willing to lie when she feels the situation calls for it. She is not to be trusted, and that is on top of the many valid reasons I do not support her.

    Keep flogging the dead horse RP, there may be a bit of hide left on it somewhere!

  257. 257.

    Rarely Posts

    Rick Taylor, I’m only concerned with Florida. MI isn’t my state, nor my business.

    Popular vote matters as well and I’m pretty sure the popular vote count isn’t taking Florida into account.

  258. 258.

    Rarely Posts

    cite please

    The only way the candidates participated was by having their names on the ballot. Both did.

  259. 259.

    Walker

    Actually, I read through the discussions and it was very pleasant reading because everyone was sticking to arguing positions and there was just about nothing personal. And there were people arguing Obama’s position.

    Every once in a while I look at a TalkLeft thread out of morbid curiousity. Out of a thread of almost 100 comments I saw 1 pro-Obama comment (which pointed out that the other 99 comments were working from the same false premise). That place is an echo chamber. Everyone quotes the same talking points over and over. They are enamored by this bogus “disenfranchisment” meme.

  260. 260.

    cleek

    The only way the candidates participated was by having their names on the ballot. Both did.

    lame.

    of course their names were on the ballot – all the candidates were, because FL didn’t let them remove their names. even the people who had already dropped out of the race were on the FL ballot.

  261. 261.

    PeterJ

    Popular vote matters as well and I’m pretty sure the popular vote count isn’t taking Florida into account.

    No, popular vote doesn’t matter beyond awarding delegates. You win by having more delegates than your opponents, not more votes.

    If Kerry had won Ohio in 2004, then Bush would have won the popular vote but lost the election.

  262. 262.

    Crusty Dem

    Ok feel the need to repeat this, because it illustrates what a doofus tool Armando is; Chris Bowers never said that Obama was “contesting” the Michigan uncommitted delegates. Never. So he’s asking John to explain the hypocrisy of something Obama never did. Leaving aside how this would be John’s responsibility.

    The stoopid goes to 11.

  263. 263.

    Xenos

    The only way the candidates participated was by having their names on the ballot. Both did.

    But only one of the two participated in a post-election process to count votes that the DNC had ruled to be irrelevant, and which both sides had stipulated would not be counted.

    This is like not playing the lottery, then claiming that you should get a share of the money because your number came up. It is laughable.

  264. 264.

    Scrutinizer

    Popular vote matters as well and I’m pretty sure the popular vote count isn’t taking Florida into account.

    Really? Shit, that means Gore was elected President in 2000. Who knew?

  265. 265.

    Rarely Posts

    But only one of the two participated in a post-election process

    That isn’t true either. Obama pushed against a revote. That’s definitely participating.

  267. 267.

    Scrutinizer

    That isn’t true either. Obama pushed against a revote. That’s definitely participating.

    Now you’re getting desperate. As I recall, it was Clinton’s campaign that said that they didn’t want redos or revotes—They wanted FL seated as is.

    I disagree that Obama pushed against a revote per se; he just didn’t agree with rules for a revote that were designed to leave him at a disadvantage. But even if we throw that out and accept your assertion at face value, how does opposing a revote have anything to do with Obama participating in the original not-a-primary? He didn’t, she did—when she flew down to accept victory in a primary she said she would not participate in. Parse that last however you wish—agreeing not to participate implies not reaping the benefit of a contest that was not conducted according to party rules.

  268. 268.

    TR

    I, for one, hope my Atlanta Braves will be smart enough to follow Hillary’s example this season.

    If they’re trailing their division rivals when they get to the All-Star Break halfway through, they should demand that we go back and count the spring training games.

    And if the other teams refuse to change the rules midway through, they should accuse them of hating baseball.

  269. 269.

    zzyzx

    Has Big Tent ever explained how Obama blocked the revote in Florida and Michigan? He keeps saying that (and uses that to justify seating the delegates as is), but I’ve never seen him spell out why.

    The claim is that Obama blocked it by not being happy with the plans being floated and there’s no way that the DNC would approve anything that one party wasn’t happy with. It’s actually a reasonably valid point. However, Clinton waiting until the very last second to do anything destroyed most of her moral high ground. Obama’s argument was mainly, “I have to look at the plan first to make sure it’s fair,” which does make sure it won’t happen when you only have like 3 days to decide on something.

  270. 270.

    cleek

    The claim is that Obama blocked it by not being happy with the plans being floated and there’s no way that the DNC would approve anything that one party wasn’t happy with. It’s actually a reasonably valid point.

    they never mention that Obama had perfectly valid reasons for not being happy with the plans.

  271. 271.

    Scrutinizer

    The claim is that Obama blocked it by not being happy with the plans being floated and there’s no way that the DNC would approve anything that one party wasn’t happy with.

    In Michigan, one problem was that the Clinton campaign wanted to exclude any Dems who had voted in the Republican primary. Since Dems who crossed over mostly did so to fuck with the Repub results after having been told that their votes didn’t count, the Obama campaign probably felt that excluding those voters unfairly disenfranchised people who would have voted in the Dem primary if there had been one.

    Those crossover votes are a big reason I support closed primaries in every election. That still won’t stop people from changing their voter registration, but I doubt that most potential voter-fuckers will go to the extra trouble. And if they do, as someone else said, then we have their names on our mailing lists!

  272. 272.

    Conservatively Liberal

    Rarely Posts (really?!) is being deliberately obtuse in regards to Florida. They have been shilling for this POV in just about every other post they make, and they have been asking essentially the same questions over and over and getting the same answers over and over. This is a bad habit that most parents break their kids of at an early age.

    On another note, I heard over at Kos that Lee Hamilton endorsed Obama. That ought to help him in Indiana. Hamilton is a mixed bag, and he is not a delegate, but he will boost Obama where he needs it. As noted at Kos, Hamilton was a VP possibility for Bill Clinton in ’92, so expect the possibility of the ‘Judas’ comment being rolled out again.

  273. 273.

    zzyzx

    I didn’t say it was fool proof, just valid.

    Ironically enough, I was scared of the MI revote because I was scared that it wouldn’t block Republican voters.

    The fact is that MI was spoiled beyond all chance of recovery.

  274. 274.

    John S.

    Rarely Posts (really?!) is being deliberately obtuse in regards to Florida.

    That’s what makes Hillbots so loveable!

  275. 275.

    cleek

    They have been shilling for this POV in just about every other post they make, and they have been asking essentially the same questions over and over and getting the same answers over and over.

    it’s a ritualistic recitation. they’re trying to chant their desires into reality.

  276. 276.

    Rarely Posts

    they never mention that Obama had perfectly valid reasons for not being happy with the plans.

    True, fearing a loss in the revote is certainly a good reason for not being happy with the plan.

  277. 277.

    John S.

    I’m only concerned with Florida

    Me too.

    And as a Floridian, I think the delegates should not be seated in accordance with the rules. The Florida Democratic party shafted us (Rick Geller and Karen Thurman I’m looking at you) and we all knew it going into January 29.

    Stop pretending like there is something valid left to fight for. The time to fight for the inclusion of our votes passed several months ago.

  278. 278.

    John S.

    True, fearing a loss in the revote is certainly a good reason for not being happy with the plan.

    Which is why Hillary rejected having a revote in the form of a caucus.

  279. 279.

    cleek

    True, fearing a loss in the revote is certainly a good reason for not being happy with the plan.

    well, that and the fact that there was simply no way a fair and legal revote could be conducted in such a short time.

    i suppose it’s easier to pretend it’s all Obama’s fault, given that he does, after all, control time and space.

  280. 280.

    The Other Steve

    In Michigan, one problem was that the Clinton campaign wanted to exclude any Dems who had voted in the Republican primary.

    It was bigger than that. Hillary was insisting that only people who showed up to vote back then were allowed to vote in this revote.

    So people who missed the first one, thinking it didn’t count, still wouldn’t be allowed to vote.

  281. 281.

    Rick Taylor

    I was way too nice to Talk Left earlier. What a prick!

    A poster writes:

    I respect you very much, but I proufoundly disagree with the notion that Obama is to blame for this.
    And I am getting very tired of seeing MY VOTE BEING USED A GAME in blogsphere.

    There is no consensus in Florida as to what to do next. The Florida Congressional delegation does not support a re-vote. There is no single remedy that commands a majority of Florida voters (as polling on the subject makes clear).

    The current circumstance is PRIMARILY the result:
    Of a Florida Democratic Party that played a game of chicken
    Of a Party Leader who did not uderstand how dangerous the game was that he was playing
    Of a Republican Governor who would not change the date after it was clear the DNC was going to stick to their guns
    Of the 20 plus states who moved to Feb 2nd only after the decision on Florida and Michigan were made, and made clear on the Rules and Bylaws Committee that they would move earlier unless Florida and Michigan were punished
    Of the Clinton campaign who supported punishing Florida and Michigan when it counted.
    The Clinton campaign itself only supported a revote after the primaries in the last month.
    Obama is not primarily or even singificantly to blame for this situation. Saying otherwise is both contrary to the history on this issue and rendering the chances of the likely Democratic nominee for president marginal at best.

    “Big Tent Democrat” writes

    I am rather tired of you acting as if you speak for the voters of Florida.
    For the record, I disagree with every particular of your comment but we will not discuss the history of the FL/MI revote issue again HERE. I will not waste my time correcting all of your misstatements on the matter Do not comment on it further please..

    I’m putting his name in quotes from now on, because he doesn’t have much to do with a Big Tent. This seems to be consistent, anyone who asks questions about why such and such is true are told, we’ve already hashed this out, it’s well established. It would be too much trouble to have to repeat ourselves. Go read through all our archives, it’s all conclusively established there.

  282. 282.

    cleek

    For the record, I disagree with every particular of your comment but we will not discuss the history of the FL/MI revote issue again HERE

    he really does sound like a RedStater: the bluster, the authoritarianism, the intolerance of dissent, the ignorance, deleting comments, banning people for not agreeing with his prescribed orthodoxy.

    sadly, by showing that a Democrat can be an authoritarian asshole, he’s wrecking the utility of the authoritarian Republican stereotype for every one else.

  283. 283.

    Rick Taylor

    Oh my God, I was still too nice to “Big Tent” in my last post. Prick is insufficient. As I don’t like using profanity, I’m at a loss.

    The original poster wrote:

    Fine. I am gone.

    “Big Tent” replied:

    As you wish.

    But leaving in a huff is rather ridiculous.

    At least you can acknowledge that you were not the only voter in Florida.

    Oh my God, the condescending arrogance is off the scale. And this on a blog that prides itself on deleting comments that are personal attacks.

  284. 284.

    Rick Taylor

    John, any chance that Talk Left might eventually be moved from “blogs we read” to “blogs we mock and monitor as needed”? Maybe after the nomination, assuming they don’t return to sanity then? It hardly seems fair to put only conservative blogs under that heading when one like this is so deserving.

  285. 285.

    MNPundit

    Oh my God, the condescending arrogance is off the scale. And this on a blog that prides itself on deleting comments that are personal attacks.

    Armando has always responded like that. Always. Go back to the earliest stuff on DKos. He looks so normal in his firm’s picture/bio too… even nice!

  286. 286.

    Rick Taylor

    Whew! Hallellujah! The “Big Tent” finally deigns to tell us mere mortals how Obama blocked the revote in Florida. Oh, that a scholar like him would waste his valuable time explaining simple things to peons like me, rather than sending us to read through the archives as he might reasonably do. I feel I have been touched by the divine! Alright, bear with me here, I’m feeling a little giddy after that.

    “Big Tent” writes:

    But Obama did not argue for revotes and despite the misgivings of the House Dems, the FLA Dem Party proposed a mail in revote. Obama IMMEDIATELY said he would not agree to it, thus ending its chances. He was the KEY, but not the only reason, the revote in FL died.

    Anyone know if there’s anything to this?

    Also, do Obama and Hillary both have veto power over revotes in any state? I certainly don’t think they should; it’s the DNC’s job to oversee the primaries, and if a state proposes a method in accordance with the rules to do one, I don’t see why either Obama or Hillary should be able to stop it.

  287. 287.

    Rick Taylor

    Speaking as a Michigan Democrat who voted in the Republican primary, I disagree. There is no feasible way to have the pledged delegate allocation match the fair apportionment of preferences among the two candidates. . . I will be extremely annoyed if they DO seat the Michigan delegation.

    “Big Tent”:
    Whether you are right or wrong, And I think you are wrong, to me is immaterial. Michgan voters, most of them will certainly disagree with you. What is CLEARLY in the best interests of the Democratic Party is a revote – in MI AND FL.

    Yes, how arrogant of that other poster, to talk like she speaks for the voters of a state just because she happens to live in it. It’s “Big Tent” who CLEARLY speaks for the Michigan Voters, AND the Florida voters, AND the Democratic party.

  288. 288.

    PaulB

    Hillary Clinton, regarding the Michigan vote:

    I personally did not think it made any difference whether or not my name was on the ballot. You know, it’s clear this election they’re having is not going to count for anything.

  289. 289.

    PaulB

    Anyone know if there’s anything to this?

    There isn’t. See this article. The real stumbling block was the state Congressional delegation, not Obama (although it is true that the Obama campaign expressed some concern). Money quote:

    But after a three-hour meeting with Nelson on Tuesday night, all nine Florida House Democrats — including Clinton supporters, Obama supporters and unaligned members — declared the plan unworkable, especially if the ballots are sent out in June. That month, many Florida senior citizens will be traveling. Students will be out of state. And African American members worry that a vote-by-mail effort will penalize low-income voters, who may not receive ballots sent to outdated addresses.

    The official reason given for cancelling the mail-in primary plan was provided by the state party chair on their website.

    Last week, the Florida Democratic Party laid out the only existing way that we can comply with DNC Rules – a statewide revote run by the Party – and asked for input.

    Thousands of people responded. We spent the weekend reviewing your messages, and while your reasons vary widely, the consensus is clear: Florida doesn’t want to vote again. [Emphasis added]

    So we won’t.

    A party-run primary or caucus has been ruled out, and it’s simply not possible for the state to hold another election, even if the Party were to pay for it. Republican Speaker of the Florida House Marco Rubio refuses to even consider that option. Florida is finally moving to paper ballots, which is a good thing, but it means that at least 15 counties do not have the capacity to handle a major election before the June 10th DNC primary deadline.

  290. 290.

    PaulB

    Also, do Obama and Hillary both have veto power over revotes in any state?

    No, which is why the claim that Obama “blocked” the revotes in Michigan and Florida just doesn’t hold water. If the national party, the state party, the Clinton campaign, etc., all agreed to a solution, the Obama party would have only one recourse: a lawsuit. If they simply expressed concerns or expressed their dislike for a solution, they could be, and likely would be, ignored.

    You could just as easily, and just as legitimately, claim that Clinton “blocked” the revotes by claiming that a caucus solution was unacceptable.

  292. 292.

    Tony J

    While you’re at it, grab some comics and let me know if Kryptonite makes Superman stronger over there.

    No, for that you’d have to go to the alternate Earth where superheroes who make up the regular DC universe ‘Justice League of America’ are all supervillains called either the ‘Crime Syndicate’ or the ‘Crime Society’.

    Ultraman, the Superman analogue, does indeed love him some kryptonite.

    Geek moment over with. Please go about your business better informed. click!

  293. 293.

    Rick Taylor

    The youtube clip of Hillary saying “”Well, you know, It’s clear, this election they’re having is not going to count for anything,” wasn’t good enough for one talkleft poster, who said if you listened to the whole piece and the inflection in her voice, you could tell she was being sarcastic and didn’t mean it. O.O

    Bulletproof indeed. So I found a link to the whole radio interview, and unsurprisingly there’s nothing indicating she was being sarcastic, she was defending herself from the implication staying on the ballot in Michigan somehow violated her pledge. Here’s the link The relevant part is about 20-26 minutes in.

    She further defends her staying on the ballot with the need to not totally write them off as we’d need them in the general. The way she was speaking, I wondered if she was anticipating she might need to do what she eventually did even then.

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