According to this ABC news piece, many choose Obama:
ABC’s Martha Raddatz asked American soldiers in Iraq what issues are most important to them when looking at the presidential candidates.
A look at the key political issues for U.S. soldiers in Iraq.Though the military is not supposed to engage in partisan political activity, these soldiers spoke out about their personal endorsements, and their opinions are likely to matter. In 2004, 73 percent of the U.S. military voted for a presidential candidate, and officials believe it may be even higher this time around.
PFC Jeremy Slate said he supported Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., because of his stated intention to pull out of Iraq right away.
“That would be nice,” Slate said, “I’d like to be home, yea.”
SFC Patricia Keller also expressed support for Obama, citing his representation for change.
While I am glad many choose Obama, I generally think this sort of journalism is stupid and pointless, and watching liberals rush to promote it will be just as irritating as it is when right-wing blogs try to claim that the troops are overwhelmingly Republican. I understand the desire to pushback against the popular meme that the troops are all right-wing, but it is just that- a meme. As such, pushback against stupidity generally leads to more stupidity (as a reference, see the vast majority of the posts on this blog written by some idiot named John Cole).
Regardless, since we are dealing with unprovable generalities and anecdotes, let me offer my own. When I was active, I found that most of the troops were apolitical. When political influences were obvious, officers tended to trend more Republican, the enlisted tended to be more Democratic, but all of them were more “conservative” than the country at large. And when I say conservative, I don’t mean what conservative seems to mean today (a fetish for the fetus, tax cuts at all costs, and getting wood when discussing the prospect of permanent war.). I mean conservative in the sense that they were resistant to change. This isn’t very shocking, because every time there was a change of any type in the Army (at least while I was in), more ofthen than not we were getting screwed. There is a reason every one in the service knows what BOHICA means, and you get used to it after a while and develop a healthy aversion to change.
At any rate, back to the point at hand- I really don’t place much stock in the ABC piece. It is parsimonious in the sense that it would seem logical that troops on their third, fourth, and fifth tour of getting shot at and dodging IED’s might prefer the candidate who promises to bring them home, but this neglects the data that show that in-theater re-enlistments are quite solid.
Finally, no good will come from this piece, as it is unscientific, yet will be used by the usual suspects to discredit legitimate survey data presented by the media. Additionally, we will no doubt be treated to weeks of “HERE ARE SOLDIERS WHO WANT MCCAIN” pieces by the various idiots in the right-wing blogosphere, much like in the wake of Cindy Sheehan’s rise to notoriety we were treated to the grotesque spectacle of grieving parents who still supported the war being foisted into the media spotlight to share their grief and enthusiasm for our excellent adventure in Iraq. If I had to place bets, I would wager the Confederate Yankee and Weekly Standard are already on the case.
*** Update ***
Somewhat related from the Petraeus proceedings:
My favorite line of the day just came from Sen. James Webb (D.-Va.): “Combat was the most apolitical environment I’ve ever been in.”
Dork
Those are just the phony ones. Real soliders favor McCain, and being in Iraq 15 months continuously at a time, away from their family and facing possible death on a daily basis.
Duh.
ThymeZone
The Dems would be wise not to make too much of this.
The Republicans, as pointed out just a while ago by Tweetie during the Petraeus hearings, seem to want to appear to be the Military Party.
I say, let them be that. I think Americans are truly ready for change, and don’t want a government by the miltary. I think that the fear premium given to the GOP by 911 has expired, and is now working against them.
Let it work. Leave this story alone.
Zifnab
I’d like to say that this wouldn’t even be an issue if Republicans weren’t constantly beating the “Support the Troops” drum. But knowing our Gossip Girl media, that’s probably not true.
Regardless, these sorts of polls would be much better if they were scientific and could reliably be used to bash the “Soldiers Love the War” myth. But, again, that would mean you’re deluded enough to believe that every enlisted troop harbors an inner Rambo who wants nothing more than to return for another sequel.
I would love to have intelligent, meaningful polling from a media organization with a shred of integrity but that’s just not the world we live in. Given the alternative – another McCain BBQ Blowjob – this is at least an intriguing change of pace.
ploeg
Would soldiers (or anybody, really) rather not quit their jobs and leave their buddies if they had any choice in the matter? No.
Would soldiers (or anybody) prefer that their jobs were easier (for example, would they rather be somewhere where they weren’t shot at)? Yes.
Would soldiers (or anybody) prefer to think that they were doing some good, and do whatever they could within reason to maximize the chance of good things happening? Yes.
It’s not hard to suss out the motivation here, and to reconcile the continued re-enlistments and the desire to try something different.
jrg
I’ll believe that this kind of journalism will be “stupid and pointless” just as soon as the jingoists on the right stop putting words into everyone’s mouth. Until then, it seems legitimate to let the soldiers speak for themselves.
I’m sick of the strawmen: “Liberals just say X because they want America to lose” or “liberals do not support the troops”…
Until the GOP learns to speak for itself instead of everyone else on the planet, this kind of journalism is welcome, in my book.
Yes, the soldiers have a job to do. No, that job is not political. Yes, the soldiers must do what the Commander in Chief decides, regardless of their personal views. This would not be an issue if the GOP was not incessantly speaking “for the troops”, and accusing those against the war of “failing to support the troops”.
rob!
it took me a long while (i’m stupid, i know) to come to the conclusion that the MSM is, in fact, almost totally useless. (how MSNBC could replace Tucker Carlson with David Gregory–barely a “push” if there ever was one in terms of actual journalmism–instead of with Rachel Maddow escapes me)
with occasional exception of a few (Olbermann at least tries to provide some sense of “ok, let’s slow down, take a deep breath” some of the time, as do some of his regular guests), all they are concerned about is Talking Points, phony fights, schoolyard taunting, etc etc.
i hope for his sake McCain isn’t relying too much on the press being on his side during the general, because they’ll turn on him in a heartbeat if it suits them.
DougJ
They volunteered for this. Who cares what they think?
DougJ
Except the ones who want to be there, who don’t want to cut and run. We should definitely listen to those guys.
NickM
Making too much of this would be a mistake, but unfortunately the notion of people in the military supporting Democrats is a bit of a man bites dog story right now. The military has always had Democrats and Republicans, but not to hear the usual media take on it. Dems are the hippie party, remember? If the media confuses its usual dopey narrative with a little subtlety why complain?
flavortext
If anything, it’s nice to know that there are soldiers in Iraq that don’t buy the “supporting the troops” b.s. that was thrown around the past several years.
I think TZ is right though. If the GOP wants to be the party of militarism, let them. Civilian control of the military is a cornerstone of liberal democracy, and though the President is Commander-in-Chief that is not his or her only job, and certainly not the primary one.
On the other hand, I’m not sure how widespread that feeling is. Although Kerry tried running on his military service in 2004 and failed, glorification of the armed forces has a long history in this country. I’m just hoping that not only are Americans sick of the Iraq War, but all self-interested military adventures as well.
DougJ
I forgot to mention that this is bad news for Democrats.
jake
Goodness John. Are you suggesting people tend to view soldiers in much the same way they view any minority you care to name? Are you saying that people tend to think that if one member of the group says or does X, then every single other member of the group must also think the same and that it’s bloody stupid?
Prepare for a counter inspection.
Dork
I think we have a new unit, a Petraeus.
1 Petraeus = 0.25 F.U.
Jen
Still and all, back when it was reported that Ron Paul and Barack Obama were getting the most support from the troops and were also the most anti-war of the candidates, and we could say “Why do the troops hate the troops?” — that was fun, I thought.
Psycheout
Why am I not surprised that ABC (the All Barack Channel) would release such transparent pro-Obama propaganda? And Balloon Juice just gobbles it up. How predictable.
Come on, John. You’re better than this. Did Obama serve in the military?
John Cole used to be fair and balanced. Whatever happened to that guy?
John Cole
And it still is fun.
I warned you, I am crabby today.
Josh E.
Snipers favor Hillary. They know she understands them like nobody else.
Krista
Being crabby is part of your charm. You’ve done some of your best writing when your boxers are in a twist.
The Other Steve
Shortly after Webb spoke, there was this exchange between Evan Bayh and Crocker. I don’t have a transcript, so I’ll paraphrase.
Bayh: Why are we in Iraq instead of Afghanistan, when bin Laden is over there?
Crocker: Bin Laden has said he thinks Iraq would be the perfect country for Al Qaeda, and we don’t want that.
Bayh: I’m pretty confident that we shouldn’t be taking our marching orders from Osama Bin Laden. Sometimes it appears Bin Laden makes a statement, because he knows by doing so the US will react to it in a predictable manner.
That made me a bit confident, that not everybody in Washington is a total dumbshit.
Billy K
And by that, she means drunk.
If ABC (or any news media) came out with a story that sampled a dozen unknown servicepersons and said they favored the GOP candidate, I would – correctly – cry foul. The fact that in this story they support “my guy” doesn’t make it any more meaningful. In fact, it’s pap.
Xanthippas
I wish people on the right and the left would remember that “the troops” are just another group of people, and there’s nothing inherently special about their political opinions except for what meaning bloggers and pundits (incorrectly) attribute to them. Usually this sort of thing comes in discussions about the appropriateness of the war in Iraq, but as this example makes clear, not always. Truth is, the troops have their own perspective, and they’re opinions aren’t automatically righter just because they happen to be in uniform or getting shot at. But those latter attributes make them easy cover for pundits and bloggers who want to cite to their opinions to support their own positions, as expressed in surveys or quotes in the papers. And yes, it’s just as annoying when people on the left do it.
Xanthippas
Did you come up with that all by yourself?
Psycheout
Yeah, screw the troops! The left’s unquenchable hatred of our fighting men and women is never too far from the surface, is it?
Rick Taylor
Psychout wrote:
Calling it “stupid and pointless” and ridiculing liberals rushing to promote it sure is a weird way to gobble it up. Did you actually read what he said?
cbear
Here you go:
Poll: More troops unhappy with Bush’s course in Iraq
Xanthippas
Somebody’s cranked up the cliche-o-rameter again.
Jamey
McCain’s wife (bka, his former mistress): Still a c#nt and trollop. More at eleven.
Lee
I would concur with the assesment of enlisted/officer Democratic/Republican breakdown.
The one thing service members remember is who ends up giving them the BOHICA stick. Currently McCain is against the new GI Bill that Webb wants to pass. Republicans have also fought against any sort of increase in benefits for our service members.
McCain and the Republicans REALLY need to support the troops if they plan staying the ‘military party’.
I knew of a lot of disguntled service members after the Gramm-Rudman(sp?) bill passed.
cbear
Shove that keyboard up your ass you cowardly little shit stain.
I’ve got $20 that says the closest you ever came to any action was that time you burned your fingers lighting your buddy’s farts on fire.
Poor Pyscheout, it must have been embarrasing to constantly have the other guys screaming at you, “Goodammit Pyscho, how many fucking times do we have to tell you to stand UPWIND of the fart, you dumb fuck.”
Is that why you’re so eager to see your countrymen fighting and dying in some misbegotten war that only profits the cowards who started it? Is it because you were never anything more than a cowardly fucking geek and it bothers you? Or is it because you were the stupid fuck that got tricked into being the first, last, and ONLY guy in the barrel when your buddies got horny back at the frat house?
Now, why don’t you insert that dildo; slip into a wetsuit, or two; and wait for your gooper buddies to come over with the body oil and the rope.
The Other Steve
The Army Times has a clear left-wing bias. Everybody knows that.
ThymeZone
Dude. Half of the posts here are spoof.
Pay attention.
dbrown
All these civilian republicians that support the war in Iraq are cowards since if they believed half the shit leaving their mouths, they’d join the military and prove that they support dying in Iraq to save it for Iran
Delia
When I turned on NPR at 7 a.m. PDT there was Petraeus babbling on about the “nefarious Iranians” causing trouble in Iraq. Now I know I used the phrase “nefarious Iranians” in a thread on this very website a couple of weeks ago when considering the Basra that was not going very well except for Sadr’s forces (for whom it was going very well, indeed.)
So my question is this? Is General Petraeus getting his vocabulary words from Balloon Juice? Or is he watching too many summer stock melodramas? Because I swear, that’s about the only place you hear the word “nefarious” used anymore.
How on earth are we expected to take this shit seriously?
Jen
As Dave Barry says, this would be a good name for a band.
Lee
Petraeus is a spoof :)
ThymeZone
Yes, if only. But I take him about as seriously.
He’s a fine example of how the GOP would love to have us be a military government. The user-friendly general. Great idea.
The Compassionate Junta. It sounds inviting, even. Simple. Direct. Profitable.
Face
The way Jamey just keeps popping into threads at all random times, with only this to report, over and over, is really fucking funny.
Billy K
TZ, you are obsessed and preoccupied with “spoofs.”
NickM
Spencer Ackerman reports Biden asking Crocker whether it would have been better to attack Al Qaeda in Iraq or Pakistan and his response:
Crocker, in an impossible political position — give the correct answer and humiliate the Bush administration; give the administration’s answer and look like a fool — dodged as much as he could. Then Biden forced him down. Crocker: “I would therefore pick Al Qaeda on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border.”
ThymeZone
Oh, not at all. First of all, I’m a persona, I am not a real person, nor obsessed with anything. I am entirely theatrical. I’m fictional. But not spoof, there is a big difference.
Second, I’d bet around $1k without blinking an eye, since I know a lot of the backstory, that on any given week here 30-50% of posts and handles are spoof. On some threads, the percentage is probably higher than that.
You can think whatever you want, but if you don’t either pay attention, or know the facts, you should think before you speak. I both pay attention and know the facts. So keep that in mind.
Are you on the mailing list? If you are, you know I’m right. If you aren’t, well, there is a lot going on here that you don’t see.
Don’t make any more stupid posts like this, alright?
Xenos
Is there a site like Scrutinizer where I can go and figure out who is spoofing whom? I learned to read certain posts without risking a stroke by doing that, and it might be helpful for others.
Lee
I would NOT take TZ’s bet. I’m not on the mailing list just been around long enough and burned enough by the spoofs.
(and I’m not a spoof ;)
ThymeZone
I think it might be time to do some list recruiting. I’ll confer with the Borderline-Compassionate Ballbusters(tm) and see if we can entertain some new membership.
cbear
Fair enough, I got spoofed…I guess I was paying a little too much attention today to a number of United States Senators who are essentially saying the same thing as the spoofer—-i.e. libruls are traitors.
Sometimes it just gets to be a little too much to take.
(back to your regularly scheduled programming)
ThymeZone
Speaking of ballbusters …. gotta love Sen Boxer today, let me paraphrase her question in the last few mins:
After all this time in Iraq, after all these sacrifices, the Iranian leader comes to Iraq and holds hands and kisses Iraqi leaders, but our (US) president has to sneak into Iraq to be safe.
What’s going on? Why is Iran stronger than ever in Iraq?
wobbly
I have no problem with Martha’s piece.
It is a sound bite.
Doesn’t tell the whole story.
It is television, the camera, the snapshot. Same as we got in the Vietnam days….
I think Ms. Martha has been going to Iraq for many long years now…at the risk of her life.
I respect what she reported.
You should also.
tBone
Good question. Did the subject of kitten skull-fucking come up?
ThymeZone
Sonofabitch! Where has Sen. George Voinovich been all my life?
This guy just made one of the most emotional and strong questions to these warheads that I have ever heard. Wow.
ThymeZone
No points off. I myself have been taken in so many times, in some cases by the same damned guy, that I used to brag that I wore a band around my leg because I have been bagged so often. I am surprised they didn’t put a transmitter on me to track me.
But anyway, we all could profit from standing back once in a while and taking note of the spoofs. They’re here, they’re near, and they’re more numerous than they appear.
Mona
F*ck you, John Cole. I’m desperately tired from working doing a compilation of literary awards at my local library today, but decided I should post so that my co-bloggers won’t think me a slacker. Thought I’d fone it in by just seeing what was hot at memorandum, saw the ABC/Raddatz piece, and was going to write essentially what you did — except leaving out my military experience, since such as I have involves separating toddler and teenage fruit of my womb from killing each other.
But you said it all, and well. F*ck you, again.
borehole
TZ, that’s all fine, but Psycheout’s a scumbag. If he actually believed the crap he writes, that’d be one thing, but he ain’t even a real wingnut.
Far as I can tell, he’s a garden-variety center-lefty who started out with a Jesus’s General schtick but got addicted to negative reinforcement.
I’ll take an actual right-wing asshole over some douchebag provocateur any day. When there’s a right-wing asshole shortage maybe I’ll have a use for jagoffs like Psycheout.
flavortext
Oh, I caught myself a troll! I’m a real commenter now!
Xenos
Sometimes you get the troll, sometimes the troll gets you.
ThymeZone
Yes, well, be that as it may, you may be at the wrong place.
Not that many real RW assholes hang here. However almost everyone here is a certified and bonded douchebag provocateur(c). I’ve held the license since 1994, myself.
I am a member of Who’s Who In Douchebag Provocateurism since long before BJ.
We meet annually at a secluded retreat on the Russian River in California.
Psycheout
Hmmm, your intolerance is showing. But lefties can’t help themselves, it’s who they are. It’s all seething rage just under the surface. Try switching to decaf.
Just keep attacking the messenger rather than addressing the substance. It’s probably what you’re best at.
That you go into a barking mad foaming at the mouth tirade over a couple of sentences that you happen to disagree with says more about you than it does me. I wonder if you can figure out what that means. Probably not. Poor baby.
Sorry to disrupt your echo chamber. It was very rude of me.
Brachiator
The sad thing is that phony notions of what “patriotism” and “support the troops” really mean fogs the central reality that soldiers’ opinions should be respected no more and no less than any other citizen’s views.
However, soldiers don’t get any special voice, or any special advise and consent role with respect to who they might want as president. We are not (yet) a kind of Roman Republic in which a Praetorian Guard chooses the emperor.
Similarly, we do not fight wars for the pleasure or convenience of the troops. We should deploy and remove troops because it serves a coherent vision of our national interest, not because it feeds a president’s ego.
dbrown
To quote cheney-bloody-hand: “So?”
ThymeZone
Oh, you have no idea. A monster, really. Just a monster.
BFR
We’ve somehow gotten to the point where we regard the opinion of the uniformed military as the trump card – basically each side using it to justify their policy positions, which is a pretty f’d up place to be in. I don’t see it getting better anytime soon – BushCo has made this 100x worse by implying that their field commanders are making policy decisions for them – today I saw this headline that made me cringe:
Now, maybe I’m wrong here, but I was of the opinion that Petraeus can no more halt troop withdrawals than I can – he can make requests and argue for continued deployments, but it’s not his decision – it’s not his boss’ decision (Fallon) for that matter – it’s the decision of the policy makers but we’ve reached the point where it’s no longer reported as such.
It seems like this is going to be the trend though, where policy makers continue to hide behind the troops until we get to the point where one of the Generals or Admirals formally takes the reigns of government. I wonder how long that will take.
Rarely Posts
IIRC, many chose Bush in 2004.
Makes you wonder.
maxbaer (not the original)
If the left really hates the troops, then shouldn’t they support McQueeg. He’s the one that’s going to keep them in Iraq for 100 years.
Phoebe
Not that I have a link, but I read in several places last year that military donations – when there many more candidates to choose from – were to Obama way more than anyone else, with second place going to Ron Paul. I thought that was pretty significant, assuming it’s as verifiable as I assume it is.
Cain
Anybody catch Hillary’s interview on NPR.? I thought she did okay until she started talking about double standards and the whole seating of michigan and what not. The reason people are asking YOU, Hillary instead of Obama, is because you’re the one in the dog house. Obama is still gaining super delegates while you’re either losing them or remaining stagnant.
I also thought her questions on the whole Iraq thing was okay, but her statement was atrociously boring. I was listening it on NPR and it was just her reading a statement in a monotone voice. Bleah. Add some tones, girl. Good grief, you’ve been up in front of congress and done a shitload of speeches, you’d think you’d have learn the gift of oratory like your husband, Bill. Take a class.
Word.
cain
Wisdom
Yes, it should make someone wonder. Not an election year goes by where the liberals jump up and shout how The Military has been abused and will turn against the evil Chimpy McHalliburton. But when the time comes, those that have actually sacrificed something in life for this country keep voting a certain way. This year will always be different, just like the last one, not so much.
People in uniform don’t have time to follow campaigns right now and play the petty political games. That a small subset of outliers has time to contribute to Obama or Paul is not indicative of the millions in uniform. It is indicative that even The Military has a few political fanatics like any other organization.
Wisdom
Goodness, letting generals make decisions on how to win wars. What will they think of next.
Clinton and Obama have already signalled their pliability on withdrawals. They have accepted Patreaus’ terms but will display an appropriate amount of constipation about it. Strong, smart, uncourageous.
John Cole
Could you douchebags put down the crack pipe long enough to quit pretending that it takes “courage” to send other people off to die.
Seriously, just STFU.
Just Some Fuckhead
There’s a douchebag-crack pipe joke here somewhere.
Dennis - SGMM
Wisdom. Wisdom? Bwahaha!
Why don’t you just change your nick to “Cheetos”?
ThymeZone
Please don’t insult a good snack like Cheetos.
DougJ
I love the smell of Cheetohs in the morning. Smells like….victory.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
“Douchebag-crack pipe.”
McCain was about to call Cindy that, after the c#nt and trollop stuff, but he was interrupted by her throwing a cast-iron pan at his head.
Philip the Equal Opportunity Cynic
Mailing list? This site has a mailing list?
No, I’m serious. Mailing list?
ThymeZone
The site does not, some of the commenters do.
John Cole
If so, I am not on it.
Philip the Equal Opportunity Cynic
That makes me feel better, that I’m no more ignorant about para-Balloon Juice conversation than John Cole himself.
ThymeZone
I’d be glad to proffer your name for consideration to the list John. Just say the word.
sarah
I’m not sure how much we liberals are going to “gobble this up” (and I don’t think linking to it is the same as gobbling it up). I read this, and my thought was, well, its nice to show the military isn’t a singular monlithic entity that all thinks the same, but 5 people does not a survey make. My hope and expectation is that we liberals will be a little more balanced in our assessment of an article like this.
TenguPhule
Shorter Wisdom: Oxymoron, I am.
TenguPhule
Of course not, they’re just fed Rush bullshit and denied access to reality based sites by a Pentagon stuffed full of people only good for turning food into shit.
Psycheout
Please accept my application for inclusion on this fine mailing list of kool kidz, ThymeZone. I’m a left wing wackjob, I promise. No, really. I hate America as much as the next Code Pinko.
I’ll include a self-addressed stamped envelope. I really will. Seriously.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Morons.
ThymeZone
I think you would scare away the current members.