So what do you do after a weekend of trashing your opponent for being elitist, divisive, and out of touch? You go play the victim:
I am well aware that I am beyond the point where I can discuss Hillary rationally, but I really can not stress enough how much I have grown to hate her. I really, really tried to give her a chance. I was a Clinton hater through the 90’s, although after she was elected to the Senate and was a non-factor in my daily life, much of that hatred waned (and it did not hurt Hillary that the disastrous Bush administration helped me to re-evaluate the Clinton Presidency). Throughout the Bush administration, I frequently warned Republicans to consider the Bush executive power grabs by asking them how they would feel with President Hillary Clinton having those powers. In short, I was always skeptical of her, but my anger towards her faded. On more than one occasion, I remarked that she has actually a pretty middle of the road Senator and hawkish on national security issues.
And I came to the Democratic party prepared to vote for her. When I left the GOP and registered as a Democrat, Hillary was the inevitable nominee. It was the number one question I was asked- “Are you going to vote for Hillary?” I always said yes.
When people say that this is nothing more than my old Clinton hatred bubbling up, and this is nothing more than my pathologies rising up, there is something to it. But I really did try to give this candidate a shot. I defended her when she was getting the shaft, I was skeptical of Obama and I mocked his supporters and thought Hillary was not getting a fair break with the media elites, and I really tried. But the past few months have shown me that while I may have a number of issues with Hillary, they are not because I was brainwashed by dipshits like Bill Kristol and Richard Mellon Scaife and the rest of the vast right-wing conspiracy who Hillary is now courting while parroting their rhetoric. I don’t like Hillary because of who she is. Hell, I spent months trying to blame everything on her advisors. But this isn’t just the putrid Mark Penn or execrable Howard Wolfson. This is just who she is.
She and her low-brow coterie of lackeys have left a trail of slime and unpaid vendor bills everywhere they have gone the past few months. They have lied, distorted, polled, and then lied some more. They attack viciously, then play the victim when punched back. There is literally NOTHING they will not do to win this nomination. They have convinced themselves and their rabid but diminishing band of followers that she somehow got screwed in Florida and Michigan. They have shit all over every caucus state. They have dismissed every state they have not won as unimportant. They have come up with new names for delegates depending on how useful they are today, and tomorrow they will change their name and corresponding level of importance. Some days they are super delegates. Other days they are automatic delegates. Pledged delegates don’t have to stick with their candidate, we are told, except for Hillary’s who have to stick with her. The only consistent principle is that the only people who matter are the ones who have voted for Hillary. They have threatened, hell, they have promised, a bitter convention fight if the super-delegates do not crown her as the nominee. They bring out the worst in everyone around them, me included.
And I am sick of it, and I am sick of her. This past week-end was just the final boiling point for me, as I watched her run to every microphone with a zeal that would impress Chuck Schumer to claim that America’s blue collar workers are under assault from a San Francisco effite liberal latte-sipping out-of-touch Obama:
But I think his comments were elitist and divisive. And the Democratic party has been unfortunately viewed by many people over the last decades as being elitist and out of touch,” Clinton said. “I mean we have waged elections over that and you don’t have to think back too far to remember that good men running for president were viewed as elitist and out of touch with the values and the lives of millions of Americans. So I think this is a very significant concern that people have expressed.”
Not only are average Americans under assault from that LIEBERAL Obama, but from the passive voice, as well. This would merely be stupid and offensive if she actually believed that Obama doesn’t like or looks down on average Americans, but she knows that isn’t true. As it is, though, it is far more than offensive and stupid, as she just thinks she has an angle where she can score some political points. Dutifully and methodically, in an effort to save us from ourselves, she seeks out the nearest microphone and with robotic and unemotional precision invokes San Francisco and gets in on some of that class warfare loving the Republicans have used so well in the past few elections. Make sure you wear gloves when you stick the knife in, and do it firmly and dispassionately. Otherwise you might get some blood on yourself.
The woman is a moral black hole- soulless, empty, calculating and nasty all the way to her core (I know, I know- I just don’t know the “real” Hillary, who is charming and friendly and down to earth and likes pizza and beer). While her super-human ambition is admirable, it is not grounded in a sense of decency, and she knows no boundaries. Watching her the past few days has been a real eye opener, and watching her campaign the past few months should be a clear enough indication what America has to look forward to if she should win the election (although, I simply can not conceive how that happens). While she runs around lying about Obama, allowing her surrogates to portray him as unelectable, she fails to mention how she is going to win the general election when she can not even convince a majority of her own party to choose her.
Enough is enough. Go ahead and call me “Sullivanesque” in my rants about this awful person. Sullivan was right about her essential character and who she really is, and we all know what we will get if she is elected. Four years of bullshit, division, victimhood, and failed policies that would have been great, but those mean old Republicans just didn’t let it pass or people just were not smart enough to do what she wanted. It won’t be her fault, it will be the opposition party for opposing her, or it will be our fault because we didn’t support her enough, or, well, you know how it is with her.
Count me out.
BTW- I promise I am going to do my best to avoid talking about this tedious woman for a while. We all need a break.
Andrew
The worst thing about Hillary is that she is actually justifying Sullivan’s CDS.
Harley
Amen. If possible, I’d like to not think about her or talk about her until the day she leaves the race. And there are signs that this bullshit may have reached it’s sell-by date. Today’s Gallup shows Obama holding at ten points. Hillary actually got heckled when she trotted out the bitter bullshit in front of a union audience.
It’s one thing to be willing to do anything in the service of your own ambition. It’s another to be so fracking obvious about it. And at this point, that’s pretty much all she has left.
Mr. Warmth
Wow. You didn’t just hit that one over the fence, it was out of the park and is still in flight. Bravo!
joe
I saw some footage from a Hillary Q and A. Somebody asked her about the polls, I think the national polls.
So she sez:
Oh, by the way, did I mention I’m pissed off about China?
Thepanzer
Hillary is looking more and more like the Republican candidate in the Democratic field. She’s using their talking points, political memes, and tactics while simultaneously acting out the same arrogance, entitlement, and “I’m all that matters” that I’ve come to know and detest from Bushco.
She has brought this on herself. My growing disgust with both her and her husband comes ENTIRELY through her tactics and actions. I actually felt sorry for her from the non-stop punching bag routine she gets from MSNBC but feeling empathy for her does no translate to wanting to vote her into power when she’s embodying the worst traits of BOTH political parties.
I’ll stick with the MUP in November. If she somehow gets a coup by delegate at the convention I have no idea what I’ll do. Mcsame is fucking crazy, Hillary’s actions disgust me. I don’t think I can stomach pulling the lever for her to keep Mcditto out of the white house. At some point you have to decide in realpolitik when the lesser evil isn’t that much less than the greater evil.
jake
[Extinguishes flames shooting from monitor]
What the hell else could you find to say, man? If you want to implode her bid to go from FLotUS to PotUS, print this bad boy out and send it to her campaign HQ. Everyone there will be too busy picking up the scattered shards of their egos to continue Hillary’s McCain Wreck.
Well, I suppose heaping a few ounces of scorn on that fugly ass outfit wouldn’t be out of place…
And no, I’m not watching the clip. Even in the still it looks like she’s whining and my new and sole requirement for any political candidate is that they not whine.
Or wear magenta.
georgia pig
She appears to be a truly nasty piece of work. Maybe this is partly the result of years of frustrations and Bill’s transgressions, but who cares? Her insinuations about Al Gore “elitism” causing the loss in 2000 last night took the cake. Perhaps she should look closer to home?
Maybe this had to happen to give the Dems any hope of prevailing in 2008 and the coming years. The Clintons have essentially taken up all the oxygen in the room over the last several years, leaving the rest of the party gasping for air. The current self-immolation may kill off the Clinton mystique, and all the has-beens who go with it — Carville, etc.
4tehlulz
>>This past week-end was just the final boiling point for me, as I watched her run to every microphone with a zeal that would impress Chuck Schumer
This line is made of win and god.
Oh and the rest of the post wasn’t so bad either.
rawshark
All politicians are elitist. Some just wear it better.
Anonymouse
The worst thing about Hillary is that she is actually justifying Sullivan’s CDS.
I had removed Sullivan from my daily reading list because of his CDS. I had gotten tired of the shtick, mainly because there was no rationale to back up his hatred.
In his place, I added Balloon Juice to my reading list. But, thing is that unlike Sullivan, I believe that JC’s outrage/hatred is justified….Unlike what I thought about Sullivan.
I would like to have the Clinton campaign see that their tactics have no traction and would just give it up, but I don’t think that will be forthcoming. I think an intervention is needed with her, but unfortunately, I dont think anyone has enough balls to do it.
Fledermaus
The most annoying part is, is just how bad her campeign has been. Throughout we’ve heard about the Clinton machine, steamrolling everything in the path. But really – “elitist” is the best she can do. And she was the wife of the president for 8 years. Who’s the fucking elitists here? Then the same person who led the ‘million mom march’ for gun control and ran on federal gun control in 2000 is now all “who amongst us does not enjoy a pate from a fresh killed duck?” But then she doesn’t say when she last hunted.
Long and short of this not only is she using a bunch of GOP attacks but really really badly. It’s just kind of pathetic at this point. From his responses the Unity Pony shows that he can tackle these straight on – what will HRC do in the general, whine about unfair attacks? Call McCain ‘elitist’?
jack fate
HAH! Considering she is the Junior Senator from New York I’m not surprised she’s got Teh Schume™ down to a “T”.
Bob In Pacifica
I’ve always said I wasn’t going to vote for the Republican. Luckily, Hillary isn’t going to win the nomination.
bILL b
It’s pretty obvious that Cole, like Sullivan, is still a Republican, and that his pro Obama /anti Clinton obsession is rooted in setting up a democratic candidate that even McCain can beat. If you guys think the Clintons play hardball (actually this primary has been pretty tame) wait until you see what the Republicans have in store for your guy.
Meanwhile, if Hillary is so terrible and your man has got the likes of Howard Dean, Teddy, Nancy Pelosi, the entire mainstream media and 90% of the liberal blogosphere pulling for him, why can’t you put her away?
Jeff
Aocording to MSNBC, the crowds at her events don’t like this shtick as well.
srv
You know, I’m sorta torn. I really can’t stand the Sully Jr. schtick (I’ll never read him again, evah), but her as president would be a pretty good torture for supporting GW for so long. Imagine the dichotomy of four years of Hillary vs. Wingnutland. It would either be the best blogging you’ve ever done, or you’d become a wingnut again and we’d all have fun with that.
Nim, ham hock of liberty
Welcome to the party!
Since about 1994, it’s been very entertaining to hear wingnuts rage about Hillary and her hyper-liberal socialism/marxism/communism/militant feminism/etc etc.
None of the Republicans I know ever believed or understood that Hillary was not, in fact, the wet dream of every progressive.
Not that I ever really disliked her, but she always elicited little more than a shrug and some regret for what could have been, had she been as fearless and progressive as the Limbaughs of the world imagined her to be.
Now you’ve come full circle! Welcome to the party.
JoshA
Sadly, I completely agree. And I was someone who viewed Bill Clinton as the guy who held the pass between the mountains against the barbarians in the form of Gingrich, et al. I used to say, half-seriously, that it was one of the great regrets of my life that I never had the opportunity to vote for that man.
Several other reactions:
1. I understand how Republicans viewed the Clintons.
2. I understand how Republicans felt when Bush turned his fire on them during the immigration fight.
Also, agree with Andrew at 12:33 about Hillary justifying Sullivan’s stance. When I used to read him on her, I’d think “what a loon.” But she seems determined to prove him right.
Also, John, I’m sorry the Democratic party has given you such a poor welcome.
El Cruzado
A while back I figured that the Clintons learnt a lot from the siege they were submitted to by the VRWC.
What I didn’t realize is that they might have learnt many (all?) the wrong ones. I doubt the ’92 version of Bill and Hillary were anything like today’s. Somewhat equivocating etc. etc. probably, but not the wholesale launch of an attack machine nearly indistinguishable from the Republican one.
Insert quote about looking into an Abyss, becoming what you fight etc.
Randall
You have to have a bit of ego to do what she is trying to, but her own self-importance is wearing thin. I let my wife, who is a black woman decide the tossup between her and Obama in the primaries (VA) and she said Hillary all the way. Within two weeks we were both Obama supporters and the disillusionment with Hillary keeps growing. Bill Clinton was the first democrat I ever voted for and I always thought the rabid hatred of him proved how far gone the republican party was (little did I know). Now it seems they are proving their detractors correct and I might have more angst for them if I didn’t have the current administration to look at everyday.
I also believe that this is another one of Obama strengths,
he makes people who attack him just look plain bad. It is like he is magical.
PigInZen
I think you’ll find many of us outside of Blogoland that entirely agree with you, John.
t4toby
I’m with you, John, but from the other angle.
I’m a straight-up DFH, and I have been trying to give Hill a chance.
But every time I turn around, I see her and McCain completely simpatico. I’ve given up.
I will most likely vote for her if she somehow gets the election as McCain is a total horror show, but damn…
borehole
Y’know, I like Obama, and for once I feel like I might actually get a chance to vote for the pretty good instead of the lesser evil, but I woke up today ready to get my Hill-hate on, and what’s the first thing I hear? Obama talking about how abortion has a “moral dimension” that pro-choicers try to sweep under the rug.
Dude, fuck you. Everything has a moral dimension, even to those of us who don’t believe in ghosts. Either it’s legal or it’s not; there’s no “except if you’re a slut” clause.
Of course, then I heard Hillary’s line about Gore that Georgia Pig mentioned, so by the time the coffee kicked in I was back in the tank.
NR
I’ve been saying it for a while now – Hillary knows by now that she has no chance of winning the nomination, so she’s doing everything she can to destroy Obama and make sure he loses to McCain in November so she can run again in 2012.
From Hillary’s point of view, the worst thing that could happen would be for Obama to be elected president in November. Then she couldn’t run again until 2016, when she’ll be 68 (not that much younger than McCain is now) and there’ll be a new class of Democratic rising stars to compete with.
Or, to put it another way – she is willing to hand the Supreme Court to the religious right for a generation for the sake of her own ambition. It’s truly despicable.
I will never vote for Hillary for anything. If she does somehow manage to get the superdelegates to overturn the pledged delegate results and hand her the nomination, I will not vote for her in November. We have to purge the party of the poisonous influence of the Clintons; we’ll never be able to function as a true alternative to the Republicans until we do. (And it doesn’t matter anyway, since only Obama can make my state competitive – if Hillary is the nominee, my state will go for McCain by 20+ points).
daily_dreamer
I am with you 100%. I, like you, was completely prepared to vote for Hillary even though I have never been what you might call a huge Clinton supporter. Watching her and her tactics over the past 2-3 months though has been a real eye opener. I was done with her at the “He wouldn’t have been my Pastor” remark and then the whole sniper fire fiasco just reinforced my poor opinion of her. How can anyone vote for a person who blatantly lied not once, not twice not even three times but a whopping four times in order to further the utter nonsense that she and not Obama had crossed the C-I-C threshold??? Unfortunately lying over and over again to further your image and getting caught out in that lie with videotape isn’t enough to disqualify someone from running for the highest office in the land but I mean sheesh…shouldn’t it be?
NR
Newsflash, troll: McCain wants to run against Hillary. He knows she’ll be easier to beat.
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash1jm.htm
jake
It’s a trap! Dems shouldn’t support Obama because former Repubs do support Obama. Dems should instead should vote for someone who is indistinguishable from current Republicans. Because. Um … well look over there, another reason we shouldn’t support Obama!
No, you mean the Republicans won’t play nice? Shocking.
I wish the Hills would play hardball. Or softball, or anything but the never-ending game of Calvinball they’ve been running. “It’s Tuesday, shooting ducks and downing shots is in!”
Seriously, it’s like Obama memorized The Art of War before he went to battle buy Hillary studied My Pet Goat.
KCinDC
The only one of those with the power to start putting Hillary away is the media. I’m not sure what mainstream media you’ve been seeing, but the media I’m aware of has been treating this contest as a “neck-and-neck” race with a “see-sawing” exchange of leads, even though Obama is ahead by a large margin and has been for some time. If any candidate other than Her Inevitability were in this position, the media would have been giving them the Huckabee treatment for many weeks now. And the idiocy of “bitter”-gate is all over this same supposedly Obama-infatuated media.
Look, I’ll agree that the media like Obama more than Clinton. But they like the excitement of a close race even more, so much so that they’ll continue to pretend one exists long after it’s over. Also, they like St. McCain even more than they like Obama, so Obama doesn’t get a free ride.
Davebo
You’ll love this John.
Bernstein
Jen
Not to fetusjack this thread, but I don’t think “being a slut” is the moral dimension he’s talking about. I think it’s more along the lines of, this should be a bigger deal than some pro-choicers make it sound like it is. I’m pro-choice, but I have a friend who literally says “it’s cells. It’s exactly like getting your hair cut or your toenails trimmed.” Well, if your hair or toenails grew into a baby, maybe it would be, but clearly it isn’t exactly the same. NARAL once published an ad with all these smiling happy women wearing t-shirts saying they’d had an abortion. I found that deeply disturbing, too. Sure, don’t feel ashamed if you’re not, but it’s not exactly an accomplishment.
Obama just sounds to me like trying to walk the fine line that is American public opinion on abortion, which is pro-choice, but conflicted. You can sense the conflict in that most Americans support different restrictions on it, such as parental notification and waiting periods.
A Different JC
Great post JC, it really hits the spot. And I don’t think you are over the top in your hatred for Hillary. She is bad bad news, and it’s become clearer and clearer. This blog is part of the reality based community and the facts are getting more manifest every day.
The ‘hillary hatred’ is just another way of describing what some people have called ‘bitter.’
Ninerdave
Sums it up for me nicely. I can not vote for her in November. I’ll write in Obama. Fuck her.
Davis X. Machina
A year ago, who was the prohibitive favorite? Who had numbers as great as Obama and Edwards combined? Why can’t you put him away?
b. hussein canuckistani
Last week I turned on CNN for the first time in weeks and some odious waterhead was talking about the utterly pathetic OJ-coffee scandal. If the press would pay attention to things that matter, like maybe torture, instead of bogus hit pieces like this, Obama would have shut down Sheberman months ago.
But what do I know, I drink orange juice too.
Cain
Why can’t you quit her? :D
cain
cleek
the primary schedule has a lot do with it. there just hasn’t been any opportunity for anyone to win or lose anything, for a long long long long time.
ntr Fausto Carmona
I’ve noticed the distinct ability of Clinton supporters in the blogosphere busily rattling off reasons on how Obama can’t win. Yet the moment you turn it back on them, they suddenly turn into Chris Crocker. “LEAVE HILLARY ALONE! YOU’LL NEED US IN NOVEMBER!”
rawshark
According to who? The same group that says she’s still viable? The same group that wants to tell me how the bitter remark is suppoed to make me feel? The group that wants McCain to win?
crw
Just remember, if Hillary wins by fiat you still need to go out and vote for all the down ticket races. That’ll be the real key between a completely disastrous McCain administration and a merely incompetent McCain administration. What people keep forgetting is McCain wont be able to stack the SCOTUS unless enough Democratic Senators turncoat to sink a filibuster.
If Hillary wins, screw her and focus on more and better Dems in the Senate.
dlw32
I actually liked the Clintons in the 90’s. I can’t stand either of them anymore. Bill especially needs to StFU.
Still, I WILL NOT be a party to another term of GOP shenanigans. Even if we get stuck with Hillary.
A Different JC
Ya know, just for the sake of poetry, I want this to be an Obama-McCain race because only a few months ago, we were supposed to be staring down a subway series of Giuliani vs. Hillary (with a Bloomberg chaser).
Martin
Yeah, that bothered me as well. I don’t know any pro-choice people that don’t recognize the moral dimension, but the battle lines were set by the anti-choice people very far from that mark. The heart of their rallying cry is that the pro-choice folks are amoral and we don’t need Obama feeding into that misconception. I know he’s on the right side of this issue, but that could have been stated much differently.
Conservatively Liberal
John, you are not over the top. You are ON top of it with that post. You put most of my thoughts and opinions in to that post, and like someone above said:
I would keep an eye on your six as I think that ball is going to go all the way around and back over your head again. That, and you may see the enemy sneaking up on you with a K-Bar clenched between her teeth.
tim
Wow, John. So much projection in this post. What’s telling is the obsessive hysteria with which you HATE her and LOATHE her and will undoubtedly someday SPIT ON HER GRAVE.
She’s a ballsy woman trying to win a nomination in a really fucked up political system that is deeply corrupt and unfair. So what? How else would someone win in such a system?
Your current, alleged desire to see the Democratic nomination decided in a nicey-nice, sweet as pie primary contest in which Hills hands over the nomination to Barry because, well, it’s the nice thing to do, is either over compensation for your years on the Dark Side (now allegedly in the past) or an attempt to subvert the process and hand victory to your evil Republican overlords.
Either way, get over it. Get away from the computer and get a life, buddy.
rob
OK you don’t like her. Well I don’t either, but if by some miracle she got the nomination I am going to vote for her, because a McCain pres. would be a nightmare; four more years of bush and torture.
So bottom line, are you going to vote for McCain? Do you think he will do a better job of governing the country for the next four years?
Rick Taylor
At this point I’m not even surprised. No holds barred attacks together with free use of the victim card has been a hallmark of this campaign.
That’s a nice summary of how we got to this point. I didn’t start out with a case of CDS. At the beginning of the election the only thing I had against her was her vote on the AUMF, and I’ve been stunned to see so many of the stereotypes about her confirmed as the election has moved on. There’ve been a number of liberal sites who’ve followed your trajectory, even if they haven’t gone quite as far or been quite as outspoken. Clinton’s supporters put it down to sexism or inexplicable CDS, but I think it’s just a response to what she’s done. I remember when she first talked openly about counting the delegates from the Florida and Michigan primaries, there was a collective response of “No way!” from a number of left wing sites, and it’s been downhill ever since.
There’s an aspect of her I’m not sure you capture. If she were really as calculating and power hungry as people think, I don’t think she’d be doing what she is. If power were her only goal, I think she’d have tempered her attacks, putting herself in position to be the nominee in 2012 who could say “i told you so,” if Obama didn’t win. Fighting tooth and nail, and threatening to pull out every stop, even musing that pledged delegates can change their votes, by now what she’s doing is self-destructive. She’s obviously unashamed of what she’s doing, and doesn’t expect other people to be either.
Someone like Nixon was ruthless, but he was also calculating; he red baited his opponents when it helped him, but quickly stopped when he saw it wouldn’t help him anymore. He made sure the public didn’t see the seamier side of his administration (until it came out on the audio tapes)
borehole
Jen, I get that, but that’s kinda my point (I’m not big on coherence, which is why you might’ve missed it). Everyone’s conflicted about abortion. But women who get them are a whole fuck of a lot more conflicted than us chin-scratchers, which is why I want to punch a hole in the wall when I hear that Will Saletan shit.
I don’t remember the NARAL thing, but yeah, that sounds a little tone-deaf. And your friend’s take on fetuses more or less mirrors my own, but I know a lot of women who’ve had abortions and every single one of them would punch me in the mouth if I tried to comfort them with the “just cells” spiel, so I don’t worry about people downplaying the “moral dimension.” It’s a big fucking deal when it’s not abstract. Still, reproductive rights are so precarious in this country, I don’t get why I’m supposed to make both sides of the argument.
Oh, that’s right, because I’m a Democrat now.
Mutaman
“Why can’t you put him away?”
For the same reason Gore didn’t beat Bush: Because the clueless “creative class”, many of whom post here, just don’t get it. The whole point is to win.
PeakVT
I just want to point out that voting is not a form of self-expression; it is about electing the best person to office. And between McCain and Clinton it is pretty clear to me that Clinton is the better one – not by as much as I would like, but still better on things like healthcare and choice and Iraq. The last 7 years have convinced me that the presidency is just too important of an office to ever indulge myself with a protest vote or abstention (I’ve done so for lesser offices, but no more).
But hopefully Obama will win the nomination and the issue will be moot.
Shade Tail
On a somewhat related note, I am sick and tired of watching Clinton and her supporters claim that Obama’s “bitter” comment was elitist arrogance. It was no such thing; the people claiming it was are the real arrogant, ignorant elitists. They’re nothing but a bunch of keyboard commandos pretending to understand the working poor so they can use them as political props.
Half my family comes from the economic sinkhole of south-eastern Washington state. I know how they feel and think, because they’re my kin. They tell me themselves. Damn right they’re bitter about watching our “wonderful” economy flush their jobs and opportunities down the toilet. Damn right they’re clinging to their religion and their guns and their cultural identity, because they have nothing left. And they’re not the least bit offended by Obama’s comments. They don’t think he was being elitist, **because they know he’s right**.
Obama is absolutely correct about everything he said in that San Fransisco talk. I don’t think his wording was clumsy at all. He was completely right, and he shouldn’t even be admitting to the clumsy epithet. He should be charging full speed ahead, beating Clinton and McCain about the head and shoulders with how *they* are the arrogant elitists who are looking down their noses at the people Obama understands and wants to help. And he shouldn’t be taking a single word of it back, not even those not-really-clumsy parts.
Even Faux “News” has broadcast a report proving that he’s in the clear with this. Don’t worry, that link goes to Crooks and Liars, not to Faux.
…
Why yes, I *am* really pissed off about how the Clinton campaign (and McCain, for that matter) is treating people like my Washington relatives. What was your first clue?
Angela B
“She’s a ballsy woman”
Which may be why people like Sullivan and Cole hate her so much.
Rick Taylor
borehill wrote:
Yes, there are a number of things about Obama that have made me uneasy, and that attempt to take the middle road on everything is one of them, though I have no complaints about his voting record. I even voted for Hillary largely because of that. But events since then have swamped the reasons I had for supporting her.
Davebo
Corrupt and unfair? How so.
Xanthippas
John, I know I’ve ragged on you a few times before on the over-the-top Hillary posts, and accused you of letting your CDS get the better of you. For what it’s worth, I apologize. Back when I said those things there was still a part of me that wanted to give Hillary the respect she deserves and I’d rush out to defend her from what I found to be baseless attacks, but having listened to her talk about first Wright and now this I now agree that there is probably very little she would not do to win the Presidency. She still doesn’t drive me into a red-haze of rage (that I save for her moronic supporters like the clowns at TalkLeft) but I can understand why she’d do that to someone who already doesn’t like her.
That being said, even if she pulls off the coup of all coups to win the nomination, I’m still going to hold my nose and vote for her. She may piss me off, but I’m not crazy and I’ll take a centrist and Clinton-infected Democratic Party over a hundred years in Iraq and a nuked Tehran anyday.
w vincentz
Actually, a tactic that I’ve used for many years in dealing with 3rd grade girls that play that game (victimhood) and continually whine, is to simply hit the IGNORE button.
Even responding to their “self-invented” outrage gives reason for their continuance.
After a while, they sometimes get a clue.
I hope Hillary does when despite her best tantrums, there is no response, just silence.
Perhaps she will run as a 3rd party candidate with Joey Liberman as her VP and suck off the FL vote from Johnny McSame.
Barack wins either way. Just blow her off (oops, sounds like a replay of Bill and Monica…sorry).
Billy K
You sound pretty rational to me. I’ve never voted for anyone who wasn’t a Democrat my entire life. I came into this election with nothing but good feelings for Hillary Clinton. And I can’t stand the sight of her now.
.02
borehole
Amazing how Martin can say so much less than me, and yet so much more!
reid
She’s nearly reached Romney-level pandering. Religion, guns…. At least he’s a Republican.
Randall
I feel bad for her, really. Obama is the light at the end of the dark tunnel. Hillary is telling us it is safe and warm in
the tunnel and if we pick her she will make the tunnel even better. But we have seen the light and no matter what she says we want to find out what the light is, mostly because we know what the tunnel is.
borehole
Somebody should really respond to Angela B @ 1:46. If past performance is any indication, Jen or Krista would be ideal for this task.
John Cole
I gave a hundred reasons why I can not stand her, and you charge in here and claim it is all because I am a woman-hater.
You suck. Seriously, stick your lame identity politics and victimhood up your ass. I spend every day surrounded by strong, independent, educated women with whom I work and have a great deal of respect. Hell, I choose to be around smart and tough women. My mother is one, as are both my sisters and every woman I have ever dated (and even though I am a West Virginian, those are not the same). My academic advisor in undergrad, who I chose, was a woman. My first boss after college and best friend was a strong woman. And I could go on and on and on, but why bother? If I wanted to play this game, I would simply assert that you must be racist because you don’t support Obama.
I don’t have a problem with women. I have a problem with assholes.
Hypatia
Me, three. The ‘abortion should be legal, but it sure is icky, isn’t it?’ path is ultimately self-defeating for pro-choicers. (It is possible to argue, without taking that particular line, that the state has an increasing interest in the fetus as it approaches viability.) This is not personal to Obama, he’s not the only Democrat to pull this number, and I don’t see how it will work. The opposition isn’t interested in keeping abortion safe, legal, and rare. They’re out to ban it – without necessarily going for an open ban, mind you, just hollowing out Roe with restriction after restriction after restriction until in many areas of the country it’s essentially meaningless.
Roket
Have you seen this great comeback from Obama? If she can’t stand the heat, she might as well exit across that kitchen threshold. Cue tears.
Stemler
What is this whole elitism deal anyway? We just tried 8 years of the “everyone’s special and we all get an A for effort” president and it didn’t fucking work. The Presidency is an elite position that should be occupied by someone who is, in fact, smarter and more perceptive than the general population, including blue collar workers.
The Moar You Know
I gotta weigh in here about one thing; I’m a former (long term) resident of the most beautiful city in the United States, San Francisco, and I’m long since done with any jerkoff of a politician or pundit who seeks to score cheap points by invoking it as the Ground Zero of liberalism.
I’ve lived plenty of places more liberal than SF. Accepting teh ghey and being liberal are two entirely different things.
That Shrillery should take the shot at my fair former residence, after having hit the region up for (literally) hundreds of millions of dollars over the last fifteen years is beyond the pale. Fuck her and the ungrateful shit horse she rode in on.
And fuck her ungrateful husband too. Fuck ’em both.
A Different JC
Gender, meet your card.
Has someone worked out a formula to convince Hillary supporters that our disgust with her has nothing to do with her gender?
I mean, I can see supporting her out of gender loyalty; I can see hating her for the damage she’s causing to feminism (FLOTUS does not a resume make); but there are many solid reasons to hate a candidate for what he/she does and says.
This is one of those times. Hillary has earned the hatred of many people who would have been glad to support her. For you HRC die-hards, please understand that.
I’m still a liberal, which means I still want you to understand why I do what I do. This post is proof of that. Please understand that a good, yellow-dog Democrat left-wing liberal can hate Hillary for reasons that have nothing to do with gender.
Geoduck
As others have said, I don’t like either of ’em. Clinton’s run a lousy campaign hardwired into the worse of the national Democratic structure, and Obama’s waaay to eager to adapt GOP talking points in his bizarre attempt to “reach across the aisle”. Dude, you reach out to the current GOP, you pull back a bloody stump.
Still, either will be better than McCain, so I’ll vote for whichever one of them wins.
jake
First there was the Chunnel. Now there’s the Clunnel:
Must. Bathe. Now.
Jen
Misogynist!
It had to be said, it’s sort of a call and response around here.
Okay, borehole & Martin, familiarize yourselves with my notorious not-letting-anything-go-ed-ness.
Okay, at the risk of sounding like “concerned troll is concerned” — I promise my feelings here are sincere — I think the majority of people, who are after all, pro-choice, are not amoral, or immoral either, on the matter. But I think there is a tendency of those organizations which are vocal on the matter, like NARAL, to sound very strident and intolerant. Hell, I took the women’s studies class where you read Our Bodies, Ourselves, and they tell you that if you feel guilt after an abortion that is because society has ingrained in you that you should feel guilty. And there is a very strong dogma to this in liberal quarters. People who are sincere, committed Catholics like my mom, for example, who has worked half of her life as a volunteer guardian ad litem in court for abused and neglected children , get called misogynistic, are told that they don’t care about children after they’re born, only before. Since I know my mother and many others like her, and also because I react pretty naturally against dogma and conclusions about women’s psychology, here I go spouting off interminably again.
And Barack Obama, like every other politician before him, has to acknowledge the conflict, and the sadness, and the genuine feelings which surround this. This is the same sentiment that inspires “safe, legal, and rare” and the redirecting of the response to, “well, what is really important is reducing unwanted pregnancies.” — it’s the impulse to bring us all to what for most of us is common ground. You don’t have to see both sides of the issue because you’re a Democrat, and Barack Obama doesn’t either. But I think, because he’s a politician and because he has a particular message and a particular appeal which he has capitalized on so well, he needs to remain consistent in his pro-life philosophy, while acknowledging that people like my mom are not evil. I may be the only person in the liberal blogosphere who appreciates it, but I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one in the real world.
hmmm
don’t worry about it: i was 100% on team clinton, volunteering, defending, calling, writing- all the way. until this year. i don’t drink lattes, i don’t sip chardonnay, i don’t drive a volvo (or prius, or whatever is this year’s model of pundit contempt car), i’m from the rust belt, and i’ve come to hate hillary for all the same reasons. until recently, i was able to have civil conversations with all the hillary supporters i knew. what changed? they (men and women) stopped being hillary supporters. she’s fucked.
cleek
“She knows better than that. Shame on her!”
awesome.
DragonScholar
My wife and I were discussing this, and frankly here’s my take. It’s NOT an election about Democrats versus Republicans per se. It’s an election about insiders versus outsiders.
The Republicans have been insiders for years. They’ve been happy to manipulate people’s fears, frustrations, homophiobia, and more in a blatantly controlling and elitist manner. But at the same time, in or out, the Democrats have had their insiders too, and Hillary, who is good at working systems, has “insidered” herself. And she appears to want to be even more of an insider to judge by her kissup to Scafie. The media, of course, are a bunch of insiders now anyway.
Obama is a random factor, he’s not like “them”, he’s the wrong color and the wrong age and the wrong politics, and he’s getting people rallied and worked up. The system isn’t working too well and the insiders know it, but hell if they’re going to change things – even if they could figure out how.
Obama could be the slickest salesman on the planet (maybe he is for all I know and he even fooled me), and he’d still be playing a different game than them just based on the fact his approach is different – and that is scary to the insiders. He’s doing things that are unheard of like talking about tough issues and treating people like adults.
The insiders got their power, and they’ve wiffed it. The economy isn’t going hot, oil is high, the army is overextended, the constitution is in tatters, and health care is insanely expensive. And there’s this new guy who has a lot of people rallied and motivated knocking on the door.
Dennis - SGMM
I have voted for:
George McGovern
Jimmy Carter
Jimmy Carter
Walter Mondale
Mike Dukakis
Bill Clinton
Bill Clinton
Al Gore
John Kerry
I won’t vote for Hillary Clinton. In my state you can not-vote for anyone or anything on the ballot and vote for the rest and your other choices will be counted.
I sympathized with the Clintons throughout the Republican attacks. When Hillary made a complete fiasco of the health care plan I was disappointed. By the time ol’ Bill signed into law NAFTA, DOMA, the repeal of Glass-Steagal and then asked us to consider what the meaning of “is” is I was thoroughly disgusted. The Clintons approach the Democratic party the same way every time; a handful of “gimme” and a mouthful of “much obliged.”
fat sam
thanks John.
My blood pressure really needed that spike following a long Monday of office BS.
honest.
w vincentz
http://baldwinparkdemocrat.blogspot.com/2008/04/whos-elitist-and-out-of-touch.html
Dork
John, just accept that McCane will be our next pres, but with stronger Dem majorities in the House and Senate. Stalemate City. Aside from the disasters he’ll nommy for the Supremely Conservative Court, it’ll be 4 more years of back and forth sniping and blaming.
Fun!
cleek
you’re not.
it takes balls (sexist!) to use the language of morality in front of pro-choicers, but that’s Obama’s thing: he did it when he put gay rights issues in front of conservative religious black audiences; and he did it to the whole country with his speech on race. part of his approach is finding common ground between two sides of an issue by not being eager to demonize and patronize. he speaks to people as adults.
shera
At the very minimum, every Clinton supporter who wants to plead her case should explain: (1) how Clinton will get the nomination; (2) why the superdelegates will overturn the primary results and award Clinton the nomination; (3) how Clinton will help downticket candidates and (4) how Clinton will beat McCain in the general election.
Martin
And they go one further – many are out to ban contraception as well if they can get that far. The reality is that the core of the anti-choice group is that they aren’t anti-abortion any more than they are after exclusively procreative sex.
If they cared about reducing abortions, they wouldn’t be advocating abstinence only programs, denying sex education, pushing for an end to condom use in Africa (and many of these people seem to actively deny that AIDS is transmitted by means other than Gods will), and backing the ability of pharmacists to deny filling prescriptions.
And the ‘just cells’ statements are rationalizations and self-defense against the ‘baby killers’ accusations. When one statement goes away, my guess is the other will as well. Extreme attacks often result in extreme defenses.
Jen
Yeah, this is what I was inartfully getting at. And just like you sometimes hear that what makes people charming and appealing is not so much that they themselves are funny, but that they laugh at your jokes and listen to you so that you feel charming and appealing — what makes people like and respect you sometimes is not so much that they agree with your opinions, but that they feel like you have been listened to, and respected. He has a particular gift for this.
This episode of not very eloquent pop psychology has been brought to you by the letter O.
jrg
By being less of a Republican than him, and therefore showing people the real meaning of leadership. Next question.
theturtlemoves
Thank you, Jen, for an actual nuanced approach to the abortion issue that likely reflects the views of the candidate that we both support. Here’s a clue to the folks on both extremes of the issue. Not everyone who opposes abortion is trying to “oppress women”. Some of them believe deeply that a person is being killed and killing people is bad. Not everyone who supports reproductive rights is out there getting knocked up and having abortions at a whim every few months, either. See, if you caricature your opponent, you don’t actually have listen to what they say or examine your own beliefs in any way.
That’s why I really like Obama. He can actually examine his own beliefs and those of his opponents and come to a mutual understanding, which doesn’t play well in the right and left wing echo chambers, but certainly appeals to people like me. I realized a couple years ago reading left-leaning blogs that while I may be a Democrat, I’m a Midwestern Democrat and that means I’m left of my Republican neighbors, but would likely be considered a right-wing nutjob by the folks at DU or MyDD.
area man
Well said. As a current long term resident of the “cool, grey city of love” I agree completely. I laugh when the conservatives use SF as as the latter day Sodom of their nightmares (or fevered, hopeful dreams, perhaps?). To see Clinton do it flipped my switch completely. The absolute gall of doing that while, as you so correctly point out, milking us for money is appalling. There is apparently no depth to which she will not sink in her quest for the nomination.
Disgusting. I had been one of those who would pull the lever for her if she gets the nom, albeit unhappily. I’ve finally hit my own point of utter disgust with her, her campaign and, yes, the more rabid of her supporters.
That Truman quote about how, given the choice between a republican and a democrat who acts like a republican, voters will always choose the republican was mentioned on Tom Hartmann’s show today. Very apt and I would encourage Clinton’s supporters to contemplate that in light of her tactics and statements.
NR
Rob – Hillary may be marginally better than McCain on a number of issues, but the fact is that four more years of Clinton triangulation will be the death of the Democratic party. If Hillary manages to overturn the will of the voters and get the nomination via coup by superdelegate, and then somehow gets elected and spends the next four years selling out the Democratic base again and again like her husband did, the Democratic party is going to go the way of the Whigs. The Republicans will sweep into power in the next election, probably with a candidate far crazier than McCain, and with overwhelming majorities in the House and Senate to boot. And I don’t think the country could survive that – I just don’t.
But anyway, it’s a moot issue since Hillary has no chance of beating McCain. She’s told us over and over again how she’d campaign in the general election – the 50%+1 strategy, focus on a single swing state and hope like hell you win Ohio. I’d much rather have a candidate with the guts – and the ability – to actually run a 50 state campaign, instead of one who will keep dumping advertising dollars into Ohio long past the point of saturation and then stare cluelessly at the TV on election night when McCain still wins it 51-49.
Jen
There are certainly a lot of slimy people, in the limelight and in Congress, who fit this to a T. I’m just going to point out, again, that there are many abortion opponents for whom none of this applies, and that they really are troubled by just abortion. Most liberal Catholics, if Mama is any indication, are committed to many issues, they vote on those issues and accept their minority status on abortion. Many of them even accept that Roe is pretty established, that public opinion is against them, and that abortion isn’t going to change, so there is very little point in having that issue affect their vote. They focus their efforts on helping those children who are here with us, which is about the most productive thing you can do with an abiding belief in life.
cleek
FAIL
Shygetz
Is anyone running on a platform of “Hey, I can’t do this job any better than the next shmoe, but vote for me because you just don’t have time to be Preznit”? No? Then Hillary should can it with the “elitist” crap–I would hope that the least of the qualifications of being President is that you think you are better for the job than the average person.
Also, I think PeakVT’s 1:43 comment should be required reading. Voting is not performance art; if you refuse to vote for the lesser of two evils, then you are voting for the average of two evils. I will hold my nose and vote for Hillary if she should pull this off (but I reserve the right to lie and say I couldn’t bear to vote for the asshole). A Hillary win would galvanize my endorsement of instant runoff voting however…
Ha Nguyen
I am an Obama supporter all the way. I will never vote for Hillery Clinton, even if McCain is the alternative.
However, I just watched the video. And, I just don’t see why all the hostility. I think people need to stand back and let go their anger. I used to hate Hillery until I realized that I’m never voting for her and, poof, just like that all my anger and hatred was gone.
So, when I viewed the video, I just don’t see why people are so upset? If, as she says, Obama made a lot of critical remarks about her, isn’t that a fair representation of the facts? Did she, like she usually does, lie about what Obama actually said? I thought I had read news stories about how Obama came out, swinging at her?
leinie
Yep. It’s one of the things I like about him. He doesn’t just assume that too stupid to get it. I might want a firmer stance about keeping the govt out of my womb, but I can appreciate what he is doing here.
Chuck Butcher
Goddamit John,
I don’t like Hillary Clinton one bit and mostly for the reasons you’ve listed and some others you’ve ignored. I went to Obama as a default position, I warmed to him since, but it is still a default position. But there is something you’re ignoring here and getting into a complete lather about and that is that any person who can credibly come close to running for President has thrived in a deeply flawed system – there are no GOOD GUYS, only at best pretty good guys. They have to try to win within a flawed system that has some pretty hardwired techniques. Hillary is playing fairly rough and loose for a Democratic Primary race, but not exceptionally so. This is the REASON primaries are such a big deal, you get to choose the direction of your Party.
I like none of the results of Hillary as nominee. I have more reasons than you do to be concerned, I am an active and dedicated member of the Democratic Party of Oregon and by extension the DNC and I am a Chairman Howard Dean proponent. I care very much about downticket results. I have run in a Democratic Primary for US House in a very red district (and very large land area one, I believe larger than W VA). But there is something else. Hillary is not Satan. She’s damn poor choice, but in comparison to more of GWB at this juncture, that is measurably better.
No, I do not trust or like Hillary, but I not only don’t trust or like John McCain, I know what a disaster his policies are if he sticks anywhere near them. For pete’s sake, Hillary could veer wildly from her stated policies and still be better. I don’t want that choice and I’ll do what I can to avoid making it, but I will fall on the side of my fellow citizens, not a temper tantrum.
It is a temper tantrum. GWB was not what you thought he would be, but when you supported him you made him the incarnation of an impossible standard and supported that, not him. You’re doing the same with Hillary, I haven’t noted it with Obama clearly yet, but I have suspicions. These people are not only as fallible as you and I, they are that within a system that has serious problems and has used poor methods to address them.
I am a left wing gun totin’ construction contractor Democrat; do you think I really believe I’m going to be seriously addressed politically in my lifetime? I and the guys who work for me deserve to be regarded as valuable contributors to society and to be remunerated sufficiently to not have to worry constantly about sliding into poverty if we act at all rationally. We’re fucked. I don’t care what political faction you belong to, I’m less addressed politically than any minority group, and less likely to see it. I’ll still vote for the Democratic candidate, because even incremental improvement trumps an active screwing. Your proposal is that I should just go fucking die because you and I don’t like Hillary. Thanks a whole damn lot.
At best, my guys and I will get a few scraps off the economic table, at status quo we will be driven into poverty. Why would I want anything to do with McCain? He actually could win. You somehow propose that McCain is more truthful and less corrupt than Hillary? That he is a man of more principles than Hillary? I don’t think the record says any such thing and his politics definitely blow.
You’re a new found Democrat, I’ve been an engaged left wing Democrat for over 40 years and if you think that in this atmosphere and at this time I’d be happy or even complacent about voting for the lesser evil you’re crazy. I’ll be so goddamned pissed I’ll go to absolute war within the Party to see it never happens again. I honestly don’t think it will and this may be the death knell of the “Clintonian” model. If it isn’t, we still have current reality to deal with.
I came over here awhile back because you seemed to have gained some perspective in the process of disillusionment and your always good writing had gained that. I think you’re losing that perspective, I think you’re falling back into that “hero” model – which necessarily has a “satan” counterpart. I’ll admit a big part of my reading pleasure is your comment section…
Scandi
Don’t feel bad, I’m pretty much with you.
I actually voted for Hillary in NYC. I kind of liked Obama, but I figured that Hillary was going to win NYC anyway and if push came to shove, I was worried about him going into a general election.
I also made myself believe that what we needed was her ruthless ambition and fighting spirit. I’m so tired of losing elections for no other reason than the other side has a better attack machine. I figured it was time for us to have an attack dog of our own, even if we had to get a little dirty to win.
But I’m finding more and more that she’s crossing a line. She’s completely putting her ambition over the party. We need a Democratic president, not a faux Republican who spouts every line out of the patended Karl Rove playbook.
And the more they hurl at Obama, the more I’m impressed by him. He doesn’t need to dissemble and equivocate every time someone takes his comments out context. I think he’ll do just fine in the general and I’d be happy to pull the handle for him.
Jen
Well, thanks. You’re just encouraging me, and I expect everyone else will not appreciate that, but John did say he was trying not to talk about Hillary so much, and I think the sports world is pretty dull right now, so someone’s going to have to start a new topic.
Let’s see. Um. I kind of liked that new show Pushing Daisies and I wonder why it’s been off for so long and isn’t coming back until the fall. Um. I’ve been getting a lot of annoying telemarketing calls on my cell phone lately and I don’t know where they have come from all of a sudden. Hm. I’m going to put my tomatoes out soon and am accepting all manner of suggestions as to stopping the blight they inevitably get. That’s about all I’ve got right now.
leinie
Exhibiting my ignorance for all to see – are there tomatoes that will grow in shade? I have almost NO sunny spots in the yard, but think growing tomatoes (without blight) would be a good thing.
Jen
I don’t really think so, I just think it’s the old hotheadedness. He settles down. I guess someone should figure out if Tunch survived the aftermath of the Mattress Hosing of 2008, to be on the safe side, though.
Grand Moff Texan
I am well aware that I am beyond the point where I can discuss Hillary rationally, but I really can not stress enough how much I have grown to hate her.
Beyond rust-belt rejects and the menopause caucus, you’re in good company.
.
Jen
Not to my knowledge. Tomatoes need their sun. But you can grow them in containers and chase the sun around if you’ve got the time, I guess.
John Cole
I may just stop talking about politics and start a gaming blog. Or maybe start translating greek poetry.
I do not know what has happened, but tomatoes here in WV have been a disaster the past few years. Odd rain cycles, or maybe some sort of fungus, but they keep growing waxy yellowish spots and rotting on the vine. I really do not know what to do, and it is tragic because tomatoes are one of my favorite foods. I eat them in so many things- onions and tomatoes and oil and vinegar, sliced tomatoes with buffalo mozzerella, hell, I eat them like apples with a little salt and pepper.
theturtlemoves
Jen, I’m encouraging you because your description of your mother describes my whole family. They are opposed to abortion but they also oppose the death penalty and wars and are advocates of social justice and volunteer and are generally really nice people. I just get really pissed off every time I hear the argument that everyone who opposes abortion also wants to mandate that everyone in the world use the rhythm method or, as my Catholic aunt with eight kids described it, Catholic Roulette. That may be official doctrine, but good luck finding a layperson who actually buys it. To caricature decent people who are just as committed to social justice as their opponents strikes me as being awfully, well, elitist. And that makes me kind of bitter…
Blue Raven
I heard one person on the radio this morning claim to be offended by Barack Obama’s comments that had some small-town background. He spoke of growing up in a mountain town in Pennsylvania. But he ruined his credibility as soon as he noted he was one of the people who left to find better work. Sorry, dude, but if you don’t *live there*, you are NOT who Obama was referring to and you don’t have half as much credibility to be pissy. For pity’s sake, my own mother, who is as staunch a Democrat as you can get, lives in a small town in Massachusetts that lost its two largest employers to the vagaries of the economy and haven’t gotten them replaced, and what does she do? Bellyache about what she calls “Puerto Rican welfare queens.” The woman’s anti-gun and she still blames the Other.
Svensker
What Jen said, and that makes 3 (or 4) of us, so far. While I am pro-choice, characterizing all anti-abortion people as devils who want to rule over women is silly, and does the argument no good. Unsurprisingly, as in most of life, there are lots of nuances out there. Another reason I like Obama — he listens and is willing to actually talk about stuff, including abortion, rather than simply labeling his opponent as “not like me = dumb/evil” .
The Other Steve
In other words…. Just like GW Bush.
There was an article in Newsweek like back in December or January that talked about her, and her time in the whitehouse and the closeness of her advisors and such.
I really came away reading that and thinking “Wow, she’s just like Bush. Only more competent”
I’m no longer convinced on the competency. Seriously the problem I have with any candidate for President is if they can’t admit when they fucked up. She can’t. She has not yet once admitted to any faults. She views this as a sign of weakness, when it’s not.
sean
man, if jen wasn’t married and i wasnt opposed to the whole idea of being married, i’d marry that girl
PaulB
No. And that’s what has people pissed off. She attacked Obama and has been doing so for months. Obama’s remarks were in response to Hillary’s attack and were only a small part of what he had to say. And she delivered another attack in this little speech, all the while hypocritically decrying campaign attacks! It was the hypocrisy that’s irritating people — that, and buying into Republican frames and teaming up with Republican pundits, and misstating Obama’s remarks. It’s the sheer unmitigated gall of it that has our dander up.
jake
1. Have you been growing tomatoes in the same spot for a few years? If so, you have to stop and move them to an entirely new spot or put them in a pot or something. Apparently the plants evenutally give the ground some sort of cooties that last for several years.
2. If that isn’t the case, try putting some Epsom salts (yep, that stuff your granny soaks her feet in) in the hole before you stick the plant in. I don’t know how much because we have a 1/2 gallon carton of the stuff but we always forget to put use it. It may say on the carton though.
3. If neither of those things are an issue check your neighborhood for any Hillary signs or bumper stickers. The toxins may be affecting your garden.
-jake, Assistant Garden Geek
mightygodking
Others have already said their piece on this, but I think it’s important to note that not twenty seconds after he said that, he reaffirmed that he was firmly pro-choice and that people were going to have to understand that although he thought the decision was a hard one, it ultimately rests with the pregnant woman.
The Other Steve
Obama and Hillary have similar positions on abortion. I find it interesting that someone would be outraged by Obama noting their is a moral component, when just two years ago Hillary was calling it a tragedy.
People generally do talk about it all wrong though. There are people who fail to acknowledge the moral component. I think in the past 4-5 years, this has changed. John Kerry and many others have noted that while they are pro-choice, they’re personally opposed.
What we need to do is attack the statist attitude that just because you don’t like something means you got to legislate against it. Sadly, this is at the heart of modern liberalism and as such it’s hard for them to admit it.
But you’d think after seeig 8 years of Bush, Liberals would understand that maybe we don’t want the government involved. Bush has sure taught liberals to appreciate being able to own guns.
Jen
I have grown tomatoes in the same spot for only one year, that being how long we’ve lived there minus the first summer where it was just way too hectic what with painting over the traffic-cone orange in the kitchen and egads, yes, Duke blue in the den, but I never had that problem growing them in the same spot in the prior house. Hm. Something to think about. I do grow them with basil since they’re supposed to get along and be friendly and whatnot. Have not tried Epsom salts but will do so. Thanks! I did get a soil test kit where you put the colored capsules in with the dirt and water and then you’re supposed to match the color, but the card all makes it look like they turn baby pink and blue and mine were still really dirt-colored so I don’t think it was a very effective test result overall.
I bet sean doesn’t want to marry me any more, I can see the earplugs from here. :)
Soylent Green
Are there still any of them left?
Shinobi
These are the remarks from this morning that she was apparently responding to. Nothing really new.
I really REALLY wish that people would quit saying “you hate hillary because she’s a woman.”
Frankly, I do think there are some people who hate Hillary because she’s a woman. But these are the people who complain about her “shrill” “nagging” voice, and how she looks like a man and other stuff that no one who really cares about politics should mention as a valid point.
People complaining about Hillary’s lies, questionable character, and poor management of her campaign are bringing up valid political points. This is not misogynist. STOP TRYING TO MAKE IT MISOGYNIST.
Every time you complain that Hillary is a woman and therefore it’s not fair to ever criticize her for anything ever you are setting feminism back 5 years. JUST STOP IT.
/angry feminist rant
Adam
How about this: I will choose her on the ballot over McCain, but I won’t vote for her. I’ll vote against McCain. If I choose her, I’ll be voting for the Democratic Candidate for President. Not her.
sean
nah…no earplugs. i smoke a lot of weed so i’m quite good at zoning out. so yap away to your heart’s content ;)
mainly, i dig your sense of humor. you are the jen that mentioned liking The Office, right?
dslak
Jen’s not even a woman, you know.
sean
or was it 30 Rock?
w vincentz
Tomatoes…
Yellow on leaves indicate lack of nitrogen. Did you put saw dust or wood shavings in your soil? That will deplete the nitrogen in a hurry.
Tomatoes can do just fine in partial shade.
Six hours of direct sun is needed.
Here’s a tip. Get a gallon plastic milk jug. Cut off the top saving the handle. Put in your vegetable peelings (potato skinns, celery tops, carrot peels, banana skins…), then put in a compost bin (10 cinder blocks are a good start) and you’ll get the best natural ferilizer for all of your veggies. Toss in your lawn clippings, weeds, and other yard wastes. Just let it rot down.
Oh…to restore nitrogen, put on rotted horse manure. Just work it into your soil but make sure it’s rotted or you’ll have a bumper crop of timothy.
RareSanity
Oh yeah…and if I wasn’t already married.
But you’re right, a keen intellect and a quick wit does it for me too!
Mutaman
“I don’t have a problem with women.”
The gentleman doth protest too much. I seem to recall a few years ago you didn’t have a problem with Bush either. Whatever the reason, there is something really irrational about your anti-Clinton obsession. Like the guy said, maybe you just need to get away from t6he computer.
Rick Taylor
Andrew wrote:
Actually, Sullivan is sounding downright restrained.
tballou
John –
” BTW- I promise I am going to do my best to avoid talking about this tedious woman for a while. We all need a break.”
Thank you. You were a lot more interesting when you were attacking Bush and his cronies.
I think perhaps your experience as a Republican true believer has made it hard for you to not take all this campaign stuff so seriously. You really need to accept that neither Obama or Clinton are angels or devils. We will have one (or maybe both) come January, and that will be so much better than the past 8 years all this silly stuff that freaks you out so badly will fade to insignificance.
bILL b
“The gentleman doth protest too much”
No question about it. Cole needs to calm down and find somebody to talk to. Like Sullivan, his anti-Clinton rantings are really wierd. Possibilities:
1. He does have a real problem with strong women.
2. He’s still a McCain supporter.
3. He has a real closeted man crush on Obama.
4. He has a real closeted man crush on Hillary (Sort of like Larry Craig badmouthing homosexuals).
The bottom line is both Obama and Clinton are strong candidates and would make a good president, particularly considering the alternative. But lunatics like Cole and his followers with their irrational need to badmouth one candidate or the other are just pissing off good people and dividing progressives. Its assholes like Cole who got Gore beat 8 years ago and they’re going to do again.
tbock
I haven’t the heart to go through this entire thread. Six months ago I was sure that the country was so disgusted with the GOP on Iraq, torture, national security, Katrina, and excessive God-bothering that it did not matter who was selected–he or she would win in a walk. Now by some miracle the Democrats (my party) have selected their two weakest candidates, who then proceed to tear each other apart. I distrust Obama–I think he is an unthinking triangulater who will cave to the GOP less than no time as president. His waffling on abortion is just the latest example. If he is elected, there will be no health care reform, no Iraq withdrawal, no prosecution of the Bush criminals, no action on global warming. Ditto for Hillary. The candidate I wanted (Al Gore) took himself out early,
I have lurked at your blog for some time, John, and I have to commend your willingness to change your political point of view. That said, I believe both you and your commentors are overreacting to ordinary political tactics. Naturally, Hillary being behind, she has to go “lower” than Obama, who can afford to keep himself aloof (now that he has a solid lead). Of course she will play the victim if she thinks it might get her that one extra vote she needs. In other words, she’s got to fight all the way.
If Hillary hardball is so distressing to you, I shudder to think what you will think of Republican tactics in the coming general election. If Obama is nominated, expect a full court press on the “stealth Muslim” issue, submarine racism (they’ll make Wright his running mate if they can), every national security button pushed, you name it, all abetted by our kept press. I expect that all of our country’s racial divisions will be ripped wide open, and Obama will come out looking like Dukakis. McCain may win this fight, and even if he loses, Obama will be profoundly weakened as far as making any of his vaunted “changes” in terms of Iraq, healthcare, etc.
In looking through your archives, I note that you seem to be prone to overinvestment in one stand or another, driven either by dislike (Juan Cole, Al Gore, the Clintons, Cindy Sheehan) or by feelings of loyalty (you stood by Ben Domenesch and Jeff Goldstein far longer than might have been wise). Take care that this is not happening with your new-found affection for Obama.
John Cole
Is that really all you have? Seriously? The only response you can muster is some limp charge of a problem with women?
Pathetic, although a fitting end to Clinton’s disastrous campaign.
dslak
I didn’t have the heart to read all of tbock’s post. Was there anything worthwhile in it?
les
Can I have a denunciation!!
Genine
I don’t think its so much about affection for Obama as anger at hypocrisy. One can’t lament about the slimey, evil right-wing smear machine and then turn around and act just like them.
Well, I take that back. One, obviously, CAN do that, but they have to expect to get smacked down for it.
I actually do have an affection for Obama. I could be wrong and he could be the greatest con men ever, but I believe him. But, more than that, I do not like Hillary’s tactics. I don’t like them when republicans do it and I am not going to like it when a democrat does it.
Keith
Note to Hillary: Rip Taylor wants his toupee back.
Shade Tail
Not really. It was just a load of concern trolling about political hardball. As if our problem were merely that Hillary is playing politics, rather than the fact that she’s acting like an elitist, hypocritical liar.
cleek
false
right. that’s why a third of Clinton voters say they will never vote for Obama.
your concern has been duly noted.
zoe kentucky
I am ashamed to admit that I was a Hillary supporter at one time. Now I can barely stand to look at her, let alone listen to her speak. She has managed to live up to nearly every anti-Clinton GOP stereotype ever spun. If anything I feel like I’ve been had by the Clintons– that they *are* everything that the GOP said that they are during the 90s. They have no scruples, no limits on what they’ll do or say to win– that it’s all about THEM and not US or the Democratic Party. Their only loyalty is to their own power.
Why the outrage? While I expect stupid crap thrown at Obama from the GOP, I don’t expect her to be reading from their freaking talking points– she is betraying the party when she treats Obama like he’s her GOP opponent. Actually, she’s harder on Obama than she is on McCain. She truly disgusts me. I think it’s great Obama is actually hitting back at her for a change, making fun of her for trying to pretend she’s some kind of beer-swilling small-town “girl.” She’s nothing more than a slimy chameleon and that is exactly how the GOP would defeat her– the many faces of Hillary don’t add up to a real person.
Oh, by the way, I’m a freaking lesbian– so don’t anyone dare throw any then-you-must-be-a-misogynist shit at me. Being a Obama supporter doesn’t make me a misogynist any more than supporting Hillary makes all of her supporters racists.
Mary
So: tomatoes. Because I am sick unto death of the other subject.
I live in Toronto and have a tiny, fenced 10 x 10 foot back yard. I’ve been growing various beefsteak tomatoes successfully for 2 summers even though any spot there gets, at best 4-5 hours of sun, and some areas get only 3-4 hours.
The first year, I put my tomatoes out late (July 1) and crowded, and moved them around to sunny spots, extending the sun to maybe 6 hours a day. I still got a few decent tomatoes. Year 2 I put them out in late May, said the hell with moving the pots, and got a glorious crop. I was actually giving away tomatoes to my neighbours and friends because I couldn’t eat them all. I picked my last luscious vine-ripened red tomato at Halloween.
I’ll refresh the soil this year, but otherwise, I’ll plant ’em, feed ’em, water ’em, and eat ’em.
Oh, and if you get blossom end rot, your tomatoes need calcium. Put half a crushed eggshell in with each seedling when you plant them to forestall this.
Rick Taylor
Adam
I didn’t know John supported Nader!
John, you asshole!
Soylent Green
Yeah, that’s right. And if we fear the troglodytes on the right and cave to them, then the terrorists have already won. It’s time to take a stand for ethical standards, for our core principles, and for authentic leadership in place of demagoguery, fear, and fakery. It’s time to hope and work for the best. If we don’t get there this time, then we must try harder the next. Your concern is duly noted, the same old bullshit about the hardball, full court press, sports metaphor of your choice the bad guys will apply. I don’t care what they do. They are small-minded, selfish, hateful people; let them do their worst.
I’m not afraid of them, and neither is Barack Obama.
Adam
You know, all things considered, that clip John posted makes me feel a bit sympathetic for Hillary, even though I didn’t feel that way when I was last night watching her on CNN. She looks tired.
Like John, my opinion of her improved in the years after her husband’s Presidency. I thought her patronizing when I first saw her promoting It Takes a Village many, many years ago; she had that hectoring tone of someone running for high school President — it’s inartful and atonal, like a pale reflection of what someone *thinks* a Politician’s Speech should be. Kerry and Gore sounded the same way.
But like those people we probably all knew high school, she’s not an awful person, she’s just not a great politician. When she had that famously emotional moment in New Hampshire, I thought she at last sounded like a real person, and it was refreshing, and at that moment I was (somewhat foolishly) looking forward to the primary campaign.
Sadly, I think that her response in that moment was involuntary, probably born of frustration at the post-Iowa media narrative and her inability to do derail it. It was an authentic moment, but as soon as the cloud lifted, she retreated into her political persona, which — unlike Obama’s political persona — comes across as fundamentally disingenuous to me.
In case no one recalls, Gore was the exact same way — despite the way we see him in hindsight, his political persona was really nothing to get excited about, and it did him no favors in 2000. He was clearly personally hamstrung by the historical weight of the election — he of all people surely knew what was on the line — and it seemed to paralyze him. I’m sure everyone remembers the story about his consultants telling him to wear sweaters; if that doesn’t sound like what we’ve come to expect from Mark Penn, I don’t know what else does.
But Gore was and is always a fundamentally good guy; anyone who’s seen the Spike Jonze video of Gore right before the election could tell that he was always a kind, warm, genuine person, though at the time he really wasn’t able to show his true self when under the klieg lights. Since that time, he’s had the chance to find his own voice, and he’s become an adept public speaker in his own right. (Though it’s no surprise that he doesn’t want to run for office again.)
At this point, I don’t think Hillary is necessarily being malicious (though I’m sure she’s frustrated) so much as she’s just going through the motions and refusing to back down. That’s always been her strategy — and her husband’s as well — and it’s actually not a bad option when you’re on the defensive. Whereas Obama’s strategy when he missteps is usually to pivot and try a new approach, Clinton’s strategy is almost always to double down; she seems to bank on the fact that if she can just break through a momentary setback, the momentum will carry her forward.
Based on her and her husband’s history, I don’t think that strategy is fundamentally unsound, but it has the disadvantage of not being particularly adaptive — no matter what happens, the response is always to buckle down and redouble your efforts, even when cutting your losses might be the smarter move. It probably would’ve worked against Edwards, I think. But she was never able to get enough traction against Obama to trigger the landslide, and he’s just performed too well for her to get in a solid blow in time.
My feeling is that all the current intra-Party tension will let down once she drops out of the race. I think the flat reaction to her recent elitism charge has let some of the wind out of her sails — people are tiring of the horse race, and as a result the self-perpetuating media cycle is waning. I could be wrong, but it seemed to me last night that even if she’s not yet ready to give up, her heart isn’t really in it anymore.
jake
Mmmm, mmm! I just can’t get enough of the liberals who shout “Hey shut up you bigotted f^ggot!” to settle disputes. The cog dis gives me quite a buzz.
Please, go fuck yourself with something sharp.
w vincentz
Mary,
Give this a try for a bumper crop. Take a post hole digger and dig a hole about twelve inches deep. Then take your tomato seedling and pinch off all the side leaves except the top two. Put the seedling in the hole and backfill with rotted compost (see above for how to make compost from kitchen scraps). Be sure to leave the top two leaves above the ground. The buried stem will shoot out roots into the compost and your harvest will be terrific.
My favorite varieties: golden 100s (cherry), roma vf (plum), jersey girl and golden acid free.
Be sure not to plant them too close together. They need air circulation or you’ll get fungus problems.
Shade Tail
zoe kentucky: Personally, I’ve been waiting with baited breath for some Clinton troll to accuse me of misogyny, just to see their reaction when I inform them that my husband and two sons are all pretty convinced that I’m a woman. ^_^
My bet is that, at that point, they’ll sputter out a claim that I’m still misogynist because of some “brainwashing” or something.
bILL b
What’s a “f^ggot!”?
“Please, go fuck yourself with something sharp”.
Wow, I guess you told me. Speaking of the “creative class”.
josefina
Tomatoes need lots of calcium; lack of it shows up as yellowish leaves and blossom-end rot (gray squashy spots) on the ‘maters themselves. When you cook eggs, crunch up the shells and save them in an old jar or something. Every couple of weeks, scratch a handful or two into the dirt around each plant.
Another thing that freaks out tomatoes is being dry, then wet, then dry, etc. One way to keep consistent watering levels during dry spells: take a gallon jug, punch a few holes in the bottom with a framing nail, set it next to the plant and fill it full of water. Keep filling it whenever you think about it, unless the soil seems too soggy.
If you have roses, chop up banana peels and bury them near the roots. Roses luuurv the potassium.
And, yeah, Hillary stinks. Three months ago, I preferred Obama but would’ve been totally fine voting for her in the general. Now, I’ll have to take anti-nausea drugs to manage it. Pot’s good for that, right?
Conservatively Liberal
Hmmm, Ed Rendell says that Obama’s ‘gaffe’ is not a deal ender. He thinks that Obama can still carry PA, just that Hillary can carry it better.
Now that is an interesting statement considering the Clinton meme that Obama is flat out unelectable (in their humble opinion, mind you). It will be interesting to see if Rendell ‘refines’ his remarks or stands by them. If he ‘refines’ them, Hillary nailed him on it. If he stands, she probably nailed him on it, but he refuses to shoot another Democrat in the foot for her.
Either way, this is an interesting development.
borehole
Jen, I’m sure you’ve moved on to other threads, but thanks for fleshing out my earlier outburst into something thoughtful. Just to clarify–not that I’ve ever managed to clear anything up by talking more–my problem with what he said isn’t that people shouldn’t be ambivalent about abortion, it’s that EVERYBODY IS and he made it sound like there’s a sizeable chunk of the electorate that isn’t.
I think I just used a series of triple-negatives. Such are my clarification skills.
Conservatively Liberal
It seems that Hillary’s neighbors in Chappaqua have decided to go to PA to campaign. For Obama.
Now that is just funny! Nothing like having your neighbors turn up in another state to support your opponent.
w vincentz
Josefina,
Those are good tips. Thanks.
If you’re a forager, the watercress is perfect now. Just find a good clean stream and follow it up to its starting springs. Also, dendelions are at their best this time of year. And if you’re in a place where there are cattails, get them as soon as they come above the water. Peel off the outer leaves and the inner white core, steamed for a couple of minutes is a lot like asparagus.
Hypatia
If you’re ‘pro-life’, the people opposing you must perforce be pro-death. (I’ve never been able to understand the “abortion is murder or something close to it, but women should be able to choose to kill their babies” folks, although I’m glad they’re around.)
The decision to have an abortion isn’t always that agonizing. There are times when there is simply nothing else to do and the reaction is one more of relief than anything else. You can’t find many who’ll cop to that these days, but it’s so. (I’m not talking about myself, as fortunately I’ve never had to make that particular decision. But I know of others.)
vwcat
Hillary is bitter herself. She not only feels entitled but, that she is the only one who can win and save the party.
Problem is, if she cannot beat Obama, how can she beat the republicans.
Obama has outsmarted her at every turn. His camp know her weakness is her over reaching and over reacting. And he mocks her for it.
Hillary had the best machine around. And he derailed it. And if she thinks she can beat the republicans, yet obama can beat her, then this should say he is the better candidate and can do even better against the republicans.
Kenneth Almquist
After reading Cole’s entry fairly carefully I still don’t understand why he hates Hillary Clinton. He gives reasons, but that doesn’t explain why he the things he lists cause him to hate Clinton. In any case, the chances of Clinton winning the nomination are pretty close to nil at this point, so I don’t suppose it really matters.
Bellicausi
I heard on NPR this morning (Morning Edition) that Hillary Clinton said during the faith debate that she believed that birth begins at conception. The commentator made the assertion that in contrast Obama supports a woman’s right to choose. (I’m paraphrasing here, but that’s what I understood.)
That seems to contradict the impression that Obama and Hillary have similar positions on abortion. Did anyone who heard the debate hear this.
I haven’t heard that point made by anyone yet today.
Patrick
On the bright side, CDS brings out some truly incandescent and bitterly funny prose from you, John. That “trail of slime and unpaid vendors’ bills” line, for instance, is going to stay with me for a long time.
My own path to CDS has been shorter than yours. I never disliked her, and always thought she was a basically good person, someone I’d enjoy knowing. I greatly admired the speech she gave in Beijing, for instance, and was glad when she was elected to the Senate. But once she got there, her support of things like flag-burning and “defense of marriage” turned to real anger when she voted for that truly disgraceful bankruptcy bill, and finally to bitter disagreement with her full-throated support for the Iraq invasion and subsequent occupation. Yet none of this affected my basic respect for her, despite those disagreements, even despite the conviction that many of her positions were merely tactical — trying to “look tough” on defense, for instance — rather than principled.
But the kind of campaign she has waged against Obama, and her obvious willingness to destroy the party and turn the country over to the Bush’s heirs in the process, has at last brought me to the same volcanic level of loathing at which you’ve arrived. For me, the tipping-point was the first time she stood on a stage with Obama and told what she clearly knew to be a lie about something he’d said (the “Reagan was a transformative figure” remark) in order to try to score a cheap debating point. The cynicism of this tactic appalled me. Call me naive, but I genuinely had not thought her capable of that. Aggressive argument, of course, but not bald-faced lies and smears, intended to mislead just long enough to gain an advantage during a primary. She’s done the same thing many times since, of course–it’s her signature move, I now realize–and this current posturing about Obama’s “elitism,” etc., is only the latest example of her transparent dishonesty.
I believe more firmly than ever that Obama can win this election against John McCain, despite the vaunted Republican “attack machine,” and despite Clinton’s increasingly desperate and vicious attempts to damage Obama enough to make him unelectable. But first, for his own sake and for all of ours, he has to decisively defeat the twisted, destructive political monster that Hillary Clinton has become.
Phoebe
Ahem, I believe the term “CDS” is being misused.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure that – historically – CDS is a disease that affects Republicans who actually might be mysoginist, and who think HRC is a communist lesbian blah blah blah – people who are just projecting onto her because they need an effigy to burn and she’s handy. So the derangement comes from a partisan source – these are Republicans consumed in their gang mentality whose objectivity can’t be trusted. That’s what makes it “derangement”. Likewise, Bush Derangement Syndrome was coined by Republicans who see frothy-mouthed Michael Moore spinning all these 9-11 conspiracy theories out of personal, partisan hatred, and discount whatever it is he says because he’s got the Derangement.
But if you’re against the Iraq war, the Bush tax cuts, & torture, and you’re for stem cell research, commie health care plans, and you’re not a sexist, that is, if you’re me, then it’s not partisan-driven derangement. It’s clear-eyed, rational disgust. She deserves it. Don’t apologize. Except maybe to Sullivan, who is completely and totally right, and also not a sexist.
Mutaman
“Please, go fuck yourself with something sharp”
Vicious
You hit me with a flower
You do it every hour
Ohh, baby youre so vicious
Mike B.
This is just a very small note of thanks, John.
Yours has been my go-to blog of choice over the last few days precisely because you have expressed so uninhibitedly the unpleasant emotions Hillary Clinton has provoked in a lot of us. She has gone from the merely delusional Tuzla Tessie or Annie Oakley (I picture her dreamily trading hallucinations with Ronald Reagan, Liberator of Buchenwald) to a model of all that is despicable in American politics. Randi Rhodes obviously misspoke when she called Hillary a “fucking whore.” Clearly, she meant to say “lying sack of shit.” But I digress. The point is that most of us wouldn’t normally say these things in a public forum — I wouldn’t — but you do, with genuine passion against the evil being wrought, and thereby do us all an immense service. I only regret that none of this can really be any fun for you. Being driven mad by the Clintons isn’t proving fun for any of us.
Thank you.
Fledermaus
If that were the case, I might actually support her. No the sole remaining, sane, reason to support HRC would be the opportunity to see Andrew Sullivan’s reaction if she were elected. I think he’s convinced himself that her first act as president would be to castrate him on national tv.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Adam,
This was a very good comment, much more careful and measured than most, and while I was reading it I kept thinking to myself:
Ali vs. Frazier
What we are seeing if the political equivalent of a puncher vs. a boxer. The boxer is very tired but ahead on points, the puncher is beat up and almost blind, and time is almost up. 1-2 more rounds max.
Who will play Eddie Futch in this drama? Ed Rendell? Paul Bergala?
Everybody take a little timeout to just take it all in, because some of you will be telling your grandkids about this election.
John Petty
Mr. Cole, I believe you were recently a Republican. Is that true?
John Cole
Did you even read this post?
Ken
Great Post and the comments were also insightful.
My Two Cents.
I would love a woman President. But no way will I ever vote for Hillary.
And if it means President McLame. Don;’t care. I will not legitmize her sleaze.
She is kissing every Republicans ass. There will be no difference. She is more pyschotic and power hungry then Cheney.
Lynne
Wow, I’m simply blown away by some of the comments concerning CDS.
Yes, Hillary sometimes sounds like your mother lecturing you, but my past experience is that Mama’s usually right. Yes, Hillary is thowing the kitchen sink at the Obama campaign, looking for an in, but compared to what the Republicans will hurl in the general campaign, I think both Obama and your readers need to develop thicker skin. What her fight for the nomination shows me is that she will fight for what she wants, which will come in handy when dealing with Republican legislators.
My concerns about Obama as the Democratic candidate are numerous. While we know just about everything there is to know about her, he truly is an unknown. He hasn’t even completed a full term in the Senate yet. While his rhetorical skills are clearly superior to hers, I don’t hear the substance in his speechs that I hear in hers. I felt the same way watching the debates.
What I do see from him, on occasion, is an arrogant attitude that I do find off-putting. During one of the debates, when he told her she was “likable enough”, while looking down at his notes, I wanted to slap him right out of his chair. He also tends to raise his chin up in a superior manner when questioned about things he has said. Yes, after Bush, I want a President that I think is smarter than me – I just don’t want him to rub my nose in in. I sometimes feel like he is the Tracy Flick of the Democratic Party, channeling Al Gore’s eye rolling. As all of us know, that worked well, didn’t it?
Tax Analyst
Hey, wait a minute! Let me get this straight, with all the shit that Hillary has tossed down the pike you’re put off because Obama didn’t what? Genuflect for Hillary? Oh…and then he “raised his chin in a superior manner”…and somehow you automatically take that to signify arrogance? Look, people have various personal mannerisms…at least all the people I know. You pick them up as you work your way through life. I know I have a lot of mannerisms that my father had and also many of my late older brother. There are mannerisms that have a specific purpose and I suspect raising ones chin while listening to a question is a way of showing you are either paying attention or at least following the questioner’s thought…or it could signify absolutely nothing.
Question: How do YOU pose when someone is asking YOU an important question in front of a lot of people? Do you stand there blankly? Try to look attentive? Scratch your nose? Lick your lips? Scratch your head and look bewildered? Or might you possibly raise your chin?
It seems to me that all you’re doing is PROJECTING an assumption you’ve already made about Obama onto his gestures and mannerisms.
But hey, what do I know…maybe I’m projecting a foolish trait on someone who really has incredibly superior insight and is able to divine a person’s true nature by the angle of their chin during a televised debate.
But I don’t think so.
Phoebe
Yeah, she’s a fighter, a fighter for her own vanity, and screw the people who died/suffered from her war vote and bankruptcy vote and cluster bomb vote and I could go on. And maybe Elton John thinks that’s noble or profound, but I find it repulsive in a civil servant. I have more respect for Britney Spears – at least her job is to be vain.
Jen
Seriously, you didn’t see this?
WMass
I appreciate that John Cole decided to change from right wing dipshit to a decent human being, but he still has a long way to go. Like Sullivan, he seems to hate Hillary far more than Bush. When you look at the actions of Bush and Hillary, just imagine how dumb you have to be to focus on Hillary as the great evil.
John Petty
OK, I read it. (I figured it was your usual screed.) So, you were a Republican.
Now, you come into our party–welcome!–and you tell us that if you don’t get your way you’re going to bolt.
Jen
Possibly you should spend some more time familiarizing yourself with this blog and with John’s personality.
PeterJ
I’m so fucking tired of this defense:
When you throw shit, some of it will end up on you too. When the republicans will throw shit on Obama some of it will end up on them too, but right now Clinton is throwing shit at Obama and the republicans are standing in the corner, enjoying the show, watching Clinton getting covered too.
Original Lee
Jen, I’m late to the game with this, but thanks again for stepping up to the plate on explaining the conflictedness of the abortion issue so well. This is just not something that is normally discussed in a considerate and reflective manner, which is sad. Abortion has become such a polarized and polarizing issue that the vast majority of us tend to pull into our shells when the topic comes up, and it is really something that we need rational adult conversation about.
I think it’s indicative of how seldom most people talk about abortion among themselves that I have only read one novel in the last 10 years where two women characters have a conversation about it.
John Cole
I don’t know what I will do. The Republicans are not an option. However, I don’t think Hillary is much better, to be honest. I may just write in Obama or Dodd, or I may calm down, hold my nose, and vote for Hillary.
charlotte
“She’s a ballsy woman.”
She ain’t no ballsy woman. I’m a ballsy woman.
She’s an addict behaving the way addicts do when things aren’t going their way. Punch below the belt. Whine; lie; cue weird laughter. Back stab; defy reality; burn the house down. Steal — repeat. Knock em back in your custom made raw silk pantsuit and act like you’re ready to throw it down on Day One.
She needs a 12-Step Program and the DNC needs to grow a pair pronto and get the intervention started.
Mark Gisleson
After New Hampshire, I knew I was going to have to shut down my blog because otherwise I knew I’d go 24/7 on the Hillary hate. Nixonian is the only description I can come up with: the woman has no scruples or discernable morals.
And I’ll never forgive her for calling herself a progressive. I switched from liberal to progressive labeling solely for the purpose of distancing myself from HRC and her corporatist ways.
SpaceCat
Amen!
As much as I agree with this post, I will still hold my nose and vote for her. As painful as Clinton II might be, it would be 10x better than Bush III. Personally I think there are enough Scalias on the Supreme Court and a war with Iran is not in our best interest.
I hope Clinton’s supporters will do the same for Obama should he be the nominee.
WhatCamillePagliasaid
Reader asks:
The men you always see under her are to a person passive-aggressive, sadistic, mean, little, petty beta-male pieces of work who would not naturally succeed in a common male-type hierarchy. By that I mean an environment that values straightforward achievement rather than the darker political arts.
Paglia answers:
I agree that the male staff who Hillary attracts are slick, geeky weasels or rancid, asexual cream puffs. (One of the latter, the insufferable Mark Penn, just got the heave-ho after he played Hillary for a patsy with the Colombian government.) If I were to hazard a guess, I’d say Hillary is reconstituting the toxic hierarchy of her childhood household, with her on top instead of her drill-sergeant father. All those seething beta males (as you so aptly describe them) are versions of her sad-sack brothers, who got the short end of the Rodham DNA stick.
Phoebe
Thank you for reminding me of “rancid, asexual cream puffs”. Shudder. She can really bring it.
Yellow Dog
Thank you, Charlotte. That sums up my feelings exactly. Every time I see HRC it’s like a phone call from my crazy ex-wife. And yes, I am bitter.
John Petty
Thanks for taking me seriously. We’re about on the same page. If Obama gets the nomination, as seems likely, I will vote for him, and gladly.
What worries me is that some of his current erstwhile supporters will flake on him when he doesn’t get out of Iraq immediately. When that happens, it will be people like me–traditional Democrats–who will be left supporting him.
(Incidentally, NONE of the candidates will get us out of Iraq. We have permanent bases where the oil fields are. Does anyone seriously think that we will just walk away from over 22% of the world’s known petroleum reserves?)
Herschel Smith
Can not is one word, ‘cannot’, dumbass (or should it be dumb ass?).
George J.
I agree John…IMO some excellent writing that to me conveys the spirit and character of present day Hillary.
I used to think she was so much more…but alas she has been a big dissapointment to me this primary season. I really can’t see myself voting for someone like her. If she somehow wins the nomination I probably will just sit this one(election)out. If she has to become this to win…then she has lost my vote in the process.