Yes, she was:
Donate here. I just sent another $25.00.
And, in memory of George:
There goes another $25.00. Give till the Hillbots squeal.
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[…] RIP: George Stephanopoulos Buck 04/17/2008 – 6:42 pm Via Balloon-Juice: “In memory of George” […]
Keith
Lead?
Krista
Oh, snap!
Dennis - SGMM
Why stare into the abyss when you can focus on lapel pins?
cleek
arsenic
KCinDC
Well, she did say this was the “fun part”. I hope the fun comforts her as she sinks into Liebermanism.
cleek
heh. the footage is so much better than the transcript.
the shoulder brush is classic.
Notorious P.A.T.
I think what I like most about Barack is the way he responds to those BS negative attacks. And just think: Clinton would be denying him the chance to show this strength if she were to lay off the slime.
Andrew
If you could fight anyone… one on one, whoever you wanted, who would you fight?
I’d fight George Stephanopoulos.
afferent input
I just gave $50. I’m a fucking graduate student who makes peanuts. My wife is a high school science teacher that makes little more than I do. In fact, $50 would buy an awful lot of diapers for my two-year old son. But guess what, this is important. I’m willing to dig deep into the little that I have to get Obama into the nomination. Money is what it takes.
If I can do $50, I bet most of you can too.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
You do realize that you’re just giving pluk another reason to thread-bomb this blog with 50 identical comments and do his Gollum-at-the-cracks-of-doom “Precious! Precious! Yes! We found our Precious!” dance, don’t you?
Harley
Just tossed in some cash. If only to acknowledge my favorite part of the Obama clip. Check out the move at 2:27. When he brushes Hillary and the Wingtards right off his suit. Like dandruff.
Shoulder brush!
John Cole
I kinda like watching the freak show. Not to mention, this is kind of shallow, but watching P. Lukasiak flail around spewing bullshit talking points and trying to justify outrageous crap makes me feel kind of good about myself.
I snapped out of the bullshit. He hasn’t. I guess I should have some sympathy for him, since I was where he was once, but I really don’t. I am just glad I am thinking clearly.
Brachiator
That’s a scurrilous slur! Hillary is not a Liebermanist, as far as I know. She is heterosexual.
What?
Oh..
Never mind.
buford puser
I made it til when he got to the part where he sort of brushed off the attacks from his shoulders & the crowd rose screaming & cheering to their feet before I hit pause & clicked on your “donate here” to make the first political contribution of my life.
Finally, a Democrat with a pair of balls (with all respect to Hillary’s masculinity).
merrinc
A pragmatic use for lapel pins.
Ninerdave
Obama speech, awesome.
George piece, ok, but the text moves way too fast.
Jen
Just switch on over to big boy pants and underpants early. That’s what we’ve done with our little girl. She keeps peeing in them anyway, but it’s cheaper, and she’s beginning to dislike the uncomfortable feeling enough to make her aware.
Mail the underpants to Charlie Gibson, and you’ve got win-win-win, as they say on the Office.
D-Chance.
Obama delivers such a good speech when he has his teleprompter and no one asking tough questions of him…
Billy K
I gave this morning. Not as much as John, of course. I’m not an elite professor in a university ivory tower, gorging myself on caviar and burning flags to keep warm.
Speaking of, does anyone REALLY consider a family that takes in $250K/yr. “Middle Class?”
D-Chance.
but, then… “he was in his element”.
Billy K
What we need is a President you has no core values, can’t think on the spot, and just regurgitates pre-packaged ideas. Yeah….8 more of THAT, please!
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
It depends very much on what part of the country you live in.
Brachiator
Sounds downright Reagan-like, I must say.
eglenn
With girls, works like a charm. Boys? Not a guarantee. Filth doesn’t bother some of them (see Gibson, Charles).
crw
Actually, mainly I want a president who will pick good advisers to be his experts, while having enough intellect and judgment to sort out conflicting advice when it occurs, and to not be swayed by ideology over evidence. I think the last 8 years have adequately demonstrated the GIGO principle.
John S.
No, it doesn’t.
Only a little over 3.5% of Americans make that kind of money, so unless you seriosuly redefine where the ‘middle’ lies, there is no way in hell $250k/yr. can be accurately described as thus.
Svensker
That’s why you gotta love the guy. Wish he’d had some of that sense of humor last night, but I guess we all have our off days.
TR
Another $50 here.
Ninerdave
Depends on where you live. In the San Francisco Bay Area? Absolutely. In fact that’s one of my pet peeves about tax policy. In some areas $250k a year is a kings ransom, in others it’s enough to live modestly, yet cost of living never figures into how much you are taxed.
Ninerdave
Sure it does.
Again as I said above you’re not factoring in cost of living. You’re just looking at raw take home.
Rick Taylor
I think the video about George Stephanopoulos misses the point. I don’t think he asked the questions he did because he was in the tank for Clinton. After all, he asked her the Tuzla question (and Obama refused to pile on which was nice). Obama got more questions, but he’s the front runner. The thing is the questions towards both candidates were shoddy and pointless, the press indulging in their worst habits. Looking at Talk Left a fair portion of posters there were disgusted as well.
Cris
The shoulder brush was pretty good, but I like the part at 2:52 where he seems to be scraping crap off his shoes.
TR
It’s not that George S. is biased against Obama. It’s that he’s an idiot.
p.lukasiak
now that is funny.
at least when i toss around bullshit, I know I’m doing it.
odd, isn’t it, that after all those debates when Hillary was on the hotseat for nothing having to do with issues for a very long time (IIRC, the first segment of the previous debate was just like this one — except that it was all about hatin’ on Hillary) poor widdle bawwy never once complained about how long it took to get to “issues”.
Oh, yeah, Obama rules. You don’t have to talk about issues, as long as you are attacking Hillary Clinton.
Billy K
I understand cost of living and all, but damn…a quarter of a million is middle class? I live in Dallas – it’s not NY, LA or SF, but it ain’t cheap – and $250K is still a LOT of monies. I work in corporate playland with lots of people taking home this kinda dough, and I just can’t see them fitting in the “middle class” category.
Anyway…just curious what others thought.
buford puser
This whole “$250K is so middle class if you live in a big city” thing is pretty entertaining.
As those who can type “san francisco median income” into google know, SF median household income is $57833. How can you believe that five times median income is only “enough to live modestly”?
Andrei
I was going to tell to p.luk and myIQ to go fuck themselves, then I thought better of it and went and donated $100 to Barack Obama.
I feel so much better now.
Billy K
I’d LOVE to keep ignoring you, p.uke, but I have to call BULLSHIT on this. Consider me trolled.
Many of us have been complaining about this for year – all the while sticking up for Hillary when they pulled this shit on her. But when she pulls the same tricks on one of our own, then we get pissed.
But you know all this. You’re just trolling. Good job.
Desmond
Is it really the media’s place to try and even things up though? Like, “okay, this guy’s the frontrunner, so let’s hit him hard and bring him down to Earth”.
What’s wrong with treating both candidates fairly and letting the best man (or woman) win?
Cris
I agree. I think Stephanopoulis’ preoccupation with media image over actual policy that was on display last night was a cause, not a symptom, of his association with the Clinton administration. Hillary wasn’t the only one in her element.
Paul L.
Maybe William Ayers will donate another $200.00.
I have not seen so much enjoyable outrage from progressives since the Swiftvets.
Obama should have did what he normally does.
Other than getting some hacks to unseal his opponent’s divorce records.
Walked out on the eighth question saying he was tired.
Hope and Change. Hope and Change.
Cain
BTW anybody see the big “fuck you, hillary” gesture he did when he said “Hillary looked like she was in her element” and then scratches his face with his middle finger. :-) Check it out at 1:19. hahaha.. NICE!
cain
ntr Fausto Carmona
Which debates? You mean the one where Russert hammered her on policy?
Martin
Damn. I love my Element. Gotta give her props for good taste.
Cap and Gown
Here is another part of the same event. This time a response from a question from the audience. I especialy like the the part where he says he will not show as much restraint in dealing with John McCain.
Ninerdave
I so want to believe that was intentional.
Rick Taylor
While piling on the first half of the debate, let’s not forget the more issue oriented second part of the debate also sucked. In particular, there was the question why did Obama want to raise the capital gains tax when every time we’d done it, revenues from it were reduced. The moderator hammered away at it. I only found out later the answer is when you increase the capital gains tax, people take their gains early in anticipation of the tax increase, but of course it has nothing to do with the effects of increasing rates have in the long run.
The notion we can, in given current tax rates, increase government revenues by lowering taxes is a fairy tale, only slightly more respectable than asserting the earth is a few thousand years old. Yet I think all the Republican candidates for the nomination at least gave lip service to it. We don’t need debate moderators pressing specious Republican talking points.
cleek
yeah, i did a double take there. i wonder if that was for reals or just a happy accident. either way, it made me smile.
and the median of my little NC town is $73K. take that, ratty ol San Francisco! my little suburb is like 20% more elite than you! haha.
Ninerdave
I make less than that not by much, but less than that. I’m not saying I’m poor by any stretch of the imagination, but I sure as heck ain’t rich. I own a nice house, have a decent car, as does my wife. Solidly middle class I’d say, but the rising energy costs, food costs, etc: We’re feeling it just as much as the rest of the middle class around the country.
Rick Taylor
Do you suppose they might be covert Obama fund raisers? I’ve been wondering how he’s managed to raise so much money.
Cap and Gown
Rats. I tried to embed the video, but I must have done something wrong. So I will try a link instead.
You Tube link
Martin
Since p.luk ducked it in the other thread and brought the same lie back up here, I’ll copy/paste my response to him here.
(added from this thread)
You guys are retards, you know that. Once again, the outrage isn’t over how Obama was treated, it’s over how we were – just as we’re not pissed at Hillary for attacking Obama, we’re pissed at her treating us with contempt.
From Obama’s book:
That’s what we are pissed about. I’m just as pissed about the Tuzla question as I am about the flag pin question. And since you fuckers can’t seem to think straight, here’s what Hillary got beat up on what is considered her worst debate (courtesy of the Kossacks):
(This was the previous debate that p.luk is referring to)
From last night’s:
It’s clear that Russert pushed Clinton harder than Obama in that debate, but nearly every question is a policy question. No bullshit on her comments on MLK or any crap like that. The one that probably didn’t need to be asked is:
“Would you allow the National Archives to release the documents about your communications with the president, the advice you gave?”
I’m not quite sure that’s relevant. It’s asking for transparency, but it’s totally one-sided. There’s no equivalent request to Obama. That’s not necessary, but it’s an odd question in my view. The other:
“Do you oppose the war in Iraq?”
is a softball to allow her for the zillionth time to clarify her position there. Didn’t need to be asked, but should help her.
The rest were clearly positions that Clinton has put forward as positive reasons why we should vote for her and would have an actual impact on people. There were too many at Clinton, but strong responses should be positives for her because they allow her to clarify and expand on her stated positions.
Last night was meta-character questions to both candidates that have no bearing on the lives of voters. It was also one-sided, but that’s not the outrage. The outrage is that ABC doesn’t think we care about the important stuff. Now, the GOP actually doesn’t care about the other stuff. They vote primarily on character as Jonas noted. But Dems don’t and we don’t want that shit in our debates.
Now, if Gibson had tossed policy question after policy question at Obama – meeting with foreign leaders, Carter/Hamas, economic recovery plans, and so on, and hammered Obama over it, there would be some complaining, but not like this.
You guys are desperate to be victims by proxy here. I don’t really give a shit if Clinton attacks Obama, so long as she doesn’t lie to me in the process, or treat me like an idiot.
p.luk – you want to try not ducking this time?
Laertes
I just sent $50. Eat it, Hillbots.
ThymeZone
There are two things evident here. One is that Obama is about a hundred times better at this stuff, in front of voters, than Clinton is.
The other is that lukasiak is without doubt the biggest ass that ever posted here, and that includes some serious, serious asses. I mean, recognized, certified asses, asses who set the ass standard. Lukasiak just has them all beat.
Evinfuilt
I can’t wait to let my cousin in San Francisco know he’s middle class now. Yes, he only makes about 200k a year, its enough to pay the 500k mortgage on that “small” house (okay, it really is tiny, but its location makes up for it.)
He speaks of one day moving back to Austin, and actually getting a big house, but I doubt it will be in a “middle-class” neighbourhood.
ntr Fausto Carmona
Of course he’s going to duck it. What do you take him for, a rational debater?
ThymeZone
I think Louis Rukeyser said it best, after showing some footage of H.L. Hunt, the oil mganate, feeding deer on his private game reserve: There you have it folks, America’s greatest advocate of lowering the capital gains tax, in a very convincing setting!
The point was, and is, it’s symbolic. You can’t expect people who struggle to pay their $3k a year in taxes to respect a system that provides breaks to the H.L. Hunts of the world so that they can add more acreage to their game reserves. If we are going to have a progressive tax system, then you have to have an aggressive capital gains tax for appearances’ sake. It’s politics, and in our system, where taxation is often a third rail, it’s smart politics to talk about raising capital gains taxes. Especially when you are about to run against a guy who can only say one thing about a sagging economy, which is “keep the tax cuts for the rich permanent.”
John S.
Ok, so let’s say you live in San Francisco or some other place where the cost of living is fairly high. How many people that live in those areas actually make $250k/yr.? Well, let’s look at San Francisco. Median wages still don’t come close to that level. While I understand that cost of living diminishes a person’s buying power, you’re still way off if you claim that $250k/yr. is ‘middle’ class – even in San Francisco.
Billy K
Hey – it got us this far. Let’s not switch horses midstream!
Martin
Whoa.
I make ~60K as household income of 4 and live in SoCal in one of the most expensive markets in the country (>$900K median home price in my city of almost 200,000) and we’re middle class. Even here with $150K we’d be living easy and I’d be retiring early. I’m not suggesting you are rich, but that ain’t the same as not-middle class.
Sorry, but unless there are extenuating circumstances – supporting other family member, long-term medical expenses, etc. you should be easily at the bottom of upper class. $150K would let me pay off the remaining 25 years of my mortgage in 3 years and be debt free and be a cash-on-hand millionaire inside of 7 years after that. I’d be retiring before 50 easily.
As it is, the Gov says I’m barely upper-middle and while we struggle due to where we live, I’d accept that. We swing family vacations every other year and there are no hardships at the holidays. Pay cash for cars every decade or so. We’re poor for the neighborhood and we buy Hondas instead of Mercedes (we’ve got a Bentley, a Ferrari, and a shitload of Porsches and Mercs – Prius+Hummer is the status car pairing where I live), but it’s a 5 minute drive to people I wouldn’t trade places with.
PaulB
No, I don’t think you do.
Q.E.D.
John S.
I think anyone who claims that $250k/yr. is middle class in any city is misinformed. Even when you factor in cost of living, it still doesn’t even come close to upholding the argument.
I don’t know much about San Francisco, but I do know New York. There are a lot of people that live in the city that don’t make that much money. Most of them prefer to live in Brooklyn or one of the outer burroughs, but there are some people that have good rent-controlled properties can afford to live in Manhattan on less than $250k/yr.
My roommate from college makes about $150k/yr. and lives on the upper West side (a pretty nice area) in a one bedroom loft. Judging from his lifestyle, despite the fact that he lives in Manhattan and makes considerably less than $250k/yr. it would be extremely hard to argue that he falls into the typical middle class profile.
The people that do make that much (or more) and live in Manhattan are simply not middle class.
Dug Jay
You are all wasting your money, which I expect is something you can all probably ill afford to do. Paraphrasing Pete Wehner, Wednesday night’s debate was a bad one for Senator Obama, both substantively and in style. He was on the defensive because of associations he’s had, things he’s said, and positions he’s embraced. Indeed, the last six weeks have been damaging ones for him. People who were once impressed with Obama [obviously not including his brain dead supporters here] are beginning to wonder if the image he projects — post-partisan, post-ideological, post-racial, a uniquely unifying and hopeful figure for America — is deeply at odds with the man himself. It’s fair to say that for Barack Obama, the magic is gone. The videos which were so fashionable just a few weeks ago, featuring people chanting “O-ba-ma,” now seem even more weirdly cult-like, empty, and out of touch. And Democrats now find themselves on the cusp of nominating one of the most liberal and untested nominees in history — a man of obvious talents but also a man of obvious flaws.
Democrats have good reasons to be nervous.
John S.
Nor should it.
You have a choice of where to live. Nobody is forcing you to live in a city with a ridiculously high cost of living – that is your choice. If you can’t afford to live there, then move. Don’t expect a tax credit based on your choice.
buford puser
Are you familiar with the term “concern troll”, Dug Jay?
Andrei
Keep it up Dug Jay… I might have to go donate another $100.
ThymeZone
Really. His polling lead over Clinton has increased nationally, and her favorable numbers have plummeted while his have stayed pretty steady. The more she attacks him, the better she looks.
Also, your second rate spoof routine has worn pretty thin. Don’t you think it’s time to get some new material, and maybe retire this failed handle?
Just a suggestion. You are becoming the Mike Huckabee of Balloon-Juice.
ThymeZone
The better he looks.
Someday, when Republicans are finally driven from our land like the locusts that they are, we’ll have editable posts.
BP in MN
I think one of the problems is that many people seem to have a conceptual view that middle class means “having to worry about money”. Under this viewpoint, only those who are outrageously wealthy, enough to support pretty much any lifestyle, are not middle-class.
Many people who consider themselves middle-class by virtue of the “having to worry about money” clause are only pressed up against their bills because they have a lifestyle that is noticeably better than those who in a more realistic view make up the middle class.
The key to maintaining this viewpoint is that in most ways, their lifestyle is similar to most other people, albeit at a higher level. A household making $250,000 probably doesn’t rise to the level of conspicuous consumption. They may have a small vacation home or cabin, but don’t maintain residences in multiple cities. They drive better cars, but don’t have two add-on garages full of their auto-collection. They might even struggle to meet their mortgage payments, and though their house is likely to be bigger and in a better neighborhood, it’s not outlandishly so.
Their lifestyle is much better, but still analogous to that of the true middle-class, and a far shout from what we see on Cribs or in magazine profiles of the truly wealthy. It’s that awareness of a much higher standard of living that makes people think that they are still part of the middle class.
Grand Moff Texan
It’s fair to say that for Barack Obama, the magic is gone.
“Fair to say,” in the parlance of our political press, which means nothing.
POLLS, BITCH!!!
.
ThymeZone
Unlike the perfect 72-year old corpse who hasn’t had an original idea since the last time somebody in the White House gave it to him, that we’ll be running against.
The guy who financed his first campaign with his wife’s beer earnings, got his feet wet in the Senate by flying around in Charlie Keating’s jet to go swimming in the Bahamas, can’t tell Sunni from Shia and doesn’t know what role Iran plays in Iraq exactly but wants permanent war there, you know, just in case, thinks the solution to the economic bust is to preserve Bush’s tax cuts in amber, thinks he is still the PR guy for the Vitenam war, and looks like a badly carved pumpkin.
Yeah, we are shaking in our boots over here. Honest.
myiq2xu
Was that mean old lady thumping the Precious last night?
What’s the matter, Bawack can’t take a punch?
What a bunch of WATB’s
Grand Moff Texan
You mean the one that got her head handed to her for bringing up Ayers?
I dunno, some dumb bitch.
He openly mocked the two “journalists” for asking stupid questions. Looks like the answer is “yes,” not that you were looking for one.
.
Cris
I thought he said “humping the Precious.”
Dave Hunter
“Democrats have good reasons to be nervous.”
Maybe, but it’s a good kind of nervous.
AkaDad
Knowing my fellow BJers, I do believe you all will appreciate this.
Dreggas
Even worse than Darell?
PaulB
ROFL…. Oh, the irony….
ThymeZone
Who?
PaulB
Yeah, that’s why he’s doing so badly in the polls. Oh, wait….
You know, you really should join us here in the real world someday.
Jake
I just posted this over at Yglesias’ blog:
When we look at Obama, we see who we want to be.
When we look at Clinton, we see who we are. And we’re douchebags.
Grand Moff Texan
Hillary’s continual excuse for taking the low road is that it’s been paved by Republicans. “The Republicans will do it too,” we’re told.
This just tells me that Hillary doesn’t have the guts to frame her own debate. She’ll let the Republicans do that for her, which is why she’s the inevitable loser.
.
ntr Fausto Carmona
Damaging to the tune of six to seven point leads in Rasmussen and Gallup, and this is on the Hillary-favored end of the week.
Clinton-based reality: Isn’t it cute?
PeterJ
They allow voters who don’t count to influence these polls.
If only voters that count answered these questions, Clinton would lead.
The polls are clearly biased against Clinton.
Dreggas
Darrell, bad spelling but wow…someone has taken his place as douchebag of the blog.
theturtlemoves
Off topic somewhat, but I would like to thank cleek for giving me the ability to read so much about pie now in this thread and for giving me a small project to bone up on my rusty JS skills by figuring out exactly how the Disemvoweller works. Sir, I salute you.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Martin,
Congrats – you have good taste in cars, IMHO (we also drive an Element, it’s great for hauling kids with muddy shoes).
To everybody else who replied:
On the larger point, I’m not going to haggle over the 200-250k figure. The point at which you say the Middle Class ends and Wealthy begins is very fuzzy, that was the point I was making. You can’t draw a bright line and say: Middle Class to the left and Wealthy to the right. It doesn’t work like that.
Whether you are comfortable or treading water at a given income level depends on a lot of other circumstances – how many kids or elderly parents are dependents, medical expenses, if your profession is subject to wild booms and busts (oil field workers for example) and thus you need to sock away heavy savings during good times to ride out the bad times more so than most people, etc.
Regional cost of living is one of those variables, with the cost of housing being a major component. I know this from personal experience because a while back I moved from a high income/high COL area to a low income/low COL area. I took a 50 percent hit in income (for the same job) to do it. Was it worth it? Yes, I have no regrets and would do it again. But it gave me an understanding that abstract things like a formula of income X = class Y don’t do a very good job of capturing the messiness of real life in a very large and diverse country.
This is another macro level reason why a federated structure of govt. is a good idea in principle. Lets cities, counties and states handle issues that are best dealt with taking local peculiarities into account, and let the feds handle the stuff that can’t be dealt with at the local level.
There was a moment in the debate where both Obama and Hillary in particular flirted with this as the solution to our 2nd Amend. debates that I thought showed some real intelligence. Guns are a very different sort of issue in rural and urban areas, and we probably need two different gun control policies in order to serve both groups best.
Josh E.
Dirt off Your Shoulder indeed. Obama is Jay-Z to Hil-dog’s Nas.
leinie
Snuffuluphogus defends his performance at TPM Election Central:
Can’t make the damned link work.
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/04/in_interview_george_stephanopo.php
Claims he had to bring up flag lapel pins cuz they weren’t discussed in the last debate.
What a wanking prat.
Cris
^_^
John Cole
Hey Paul- quick question?
How many supers did Hillary pick up in the past 48 hours.
Grand Moff Texan
Cost of living varies tremendously across the country.
You cannot say that X dollar figure divides one class from another. If I lived in Oklahoma, I’d be well off. If I lived in Seattle, I’d be fucked.
.
Krista
Yep. It’s all perspective. I make just a little over one-tenth of that, and am building a three-bedroom, 2.5-bath Cape Cod on 3.5 acres of riverfrontage. Here, I’m definitely middle class. In a city, I’d be living in a box on the sidewalk, trying to keep the pimps away from my sweet self.
There are benefits to living in the sticks.
Brachiator
When you miss the point, you miss it by several large astronomical units.
The debate was a lame waste of time because it did a disservice to both the voters and the candidates. There are foolish pundits who insist that the debates must be some kind of rhetorical slug fest in which one or another candidate delivers a political knockout punch, largely because these jaded reporters just want a thrill, or an easy narrative that they can sell to bored readers who spend more time contemplating who should be the next American Idol than in thinking about who should be the next American president.
The moderators knew most of the gotcha questions that consumed the first part of the debate was nonsense. For example, I don’t know whether Senator Clinton wears a flag on the label of her suits or blouses, nor would I care in a million years. I don’t think for a second that whether she does or not might be a reflection of her patriotism. Similarly, someone would have to be a total fool to think that Obama’s not wearing a flag pin is significant in any way. And presidential debates should not indulge fools.
The moderators would have done better to pick up the day’s newspaper and have the candidates deal with the front page stories. Or … gasp … they might have asked PA voters what substantive issues were most important to them, and framed the bulk of the questions based on that.
The responses in this thread indicate why the idea of opposing tax cuts or “eliminating the tax cuts for the rich” is often a non-starter for Democrats, and an easy play for Republicans. People argue over who’s middle class, and people argue who’s rich, and the GOP can easily play on the fear that a stupid and inflexible government bureaucracy will arbitrarily label their family as “rich” and then tax their ass off.
And discussions about capital gains tax can easily drizzle off into abstraction. Obama (or Hillary) or anyone else has got to keep this stuff simple (hopefully, without lies or distortions) when coming up with reasonable proposals for any change to the current system.
The only problem, of course, is that many Democrats and Republicans have been complicit in caving in to big money interests, and will fight tooth and nail against anything that uproots the money tree that keeps them flush in political contributions and other goodies.
PeterJ
Consider that the Senator was mental from the his first post, and that we have all been witnesses to P. Lukasiak’s journey into lunacy.
P. Lukasiak wins by unanimous decision.
Krista
That was funny as fuck. Probably not intentional, but goodness knows, really. He’s just enough of a sly dog (and I mean that admiringly) that I have to wonder.
Fledermaus
Oh jesus christ people, get out a calculator! 250K a year is $20,800 a month pre-tax, don’t forget FICA goes away for everything above $86K. I don’t care if you live on the moon, that is not middle class.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
There’s a short and simple term for this:
ZERO-SUM GAME
The problem with treating the campaign as a zero sum game is that it leads to zero-sum governance. This country can tolerate that style of governance when times are good, but it is a liability we cannot afford in our present circumstances. That is what I’m reading to be the central theme of Obama’s campaign. Cut the crap already, because we are all in the same lifeboat and the stock of rations isn’t so large that we can afford to be wasting them on food fights.
AkaDad
FTFY
w vincentz
Did you notice that Hillary WASN’T wearing an American flag lapel pin? What’s up with that?
Martin
There are few places higher than where I live and $200K is doing very well indeed. Sorry, Manhattan isn’t that much more expensive (I’ve lived in NYC, I know of what I speak, and rent in my area is higher than SF) and just because you are rolling in cash in OK with that kind of income doesn’t mean you aren’t still able to do really damn well in the most expensive cities.
Seattle is high, but $200K will get you along very, very well. Extremely far from fucked. I’ll agree that working down at $100K you can start to make that argument but anywhere much above that forget it – you’ve got discretionary spending that you can either augment your lifestyle or roll into additional income – and if you can do that, you escape middle class very quickly. As I noted above, there are exceptional circumstances, but they aren’t the norm.
In my view, middle class ends where discretionary spending can generate income above reasonable investments for retirement, college, and normal spending for housing, necessities and luxuries etc. Once you have that, you should just fall upward with whatever is left over. Some people may choose to go beyond normal spending, but that’s their choice and it doesn’t make them middle-class to choose to not increase their income without pain. Celebrities do that shit all the time, and Britney is still rich even though she pisses all her money away.
Martin
Ouch.
Mydd won’t like that…
Dug Jay
Face it, folks….Obama is nothing more than one great big pussy. He has demonstrated time and again in these debates that he’s just not all that bright and cannot stand up to scrutiny when confronted by a diligent press, something that his aides work fulltime to avoid ever happening.
On those relatively rare occasions when the media can get access to him, he fails miserably and changes his story; as one case in point, last night he stated on the Wright controversy that he had “disowned” the minister while in his famous speech just several weeks ago he made a big deal of the fact that he could no more disown Wright than his own grandmother, etc., etc.
Bottom line: In all your actions designed to “cover” for his own great inadequacies, you all are also a bunch of pussy wusses.
A.Political
Dug Jay Says:
Bottom line: In all your actions designed to “cover” for his own great inadequacies, you all are also a bunch of pussy wusses.
—
Excellent debate on the issues! Your pantsuit overlord must be so proud!
Ted
What respectability you have, Myiqisshit. Sounding like an 8 year old. Bravo.
Well, I guess we’ll have to start calling her Illery around here.
Cain
Then you should be happy to vote for him since you’re a big dick and all.
Hope you’re lovin that MUPussy
cain
jh
Bottom line: In all your actions designed to “cover” for his own great inadequacies, you all are also a bunch of pussy wusses. I’m a balding, overweight pussy wuss who lives in my mom’s basement and like to beat off into her soiled panties when she’s not home.
Fixed.
ThymeZone
Dude, your spoof is showing.
Bubblegum Tate
If you feelin’ like a president, go on brush ya shoulders off!
PS: I live in Oakland, my salary is
Bubblegum Tate
Weird, I guess the ol’ less-than sign is a no-can-do on this board cuz of the HTML.
Anyway, to complete my PS from above, my salary is less than $50K a year, and I get by fine. If my salary jumped to $250K a year, I would be living incredibly comfortable and then some. But I’ve always been a rather low-consumption guy…except for collecting records. I agree that the Bay Area is a pricey place to live, but $250K a year isn’t middle class, it’s what we call “makin’ it.”
tBone
Except, of course, he didn’t say that, as you know. Step up your game or give up the trolling, please. You’re just embarrassing yourself.
Please. You and your wingnut buddies are the ones shitting your Depends over the thought of Obama getting the nomination. If you weren’t scared of him, you wouldn’t be constantly dropping your turds of wisdom into these threads.
Dreggas
nah he’s a dick but I bet he’s queer as hell so he only votes for assholes.
Ted
I for one would gladly trade Myiq and Fugly Jay for Darrell any day. Darrell was much more entertaining. For one thing, though he was/is a raging asshole/piece of shit, he could argue a point when he wanted to. Like, using logic and stuff.
These two macaques, along with plucky, remind me more of paid netvocates.
Pooh
Wait, is dug, while hiding behind a pseudonym (and not just any pseudonym, but one based on the pseudonym of like the most famous spoofer of recent intertron history) calling other people pussies?
Check out the tough guy. Wouldn’t want to get between him and a bag of cheetohs.
Krista
That’s always kind of bugged me too. It would be like calling myself “Mykalangeloh” and painting with my own feces. It’s a slap in the face to a true artist.
MDee
Watch the video, Sparky. I see no whining.
Now, let’s imagine that Clinton was on the receiving end of Gibiot’s and Stepinbunchofshit’s grilling and Obama was the one twisting the knife.
Heh. Somehow I doubt it would be anything like: “That’s alright. That’s her right to kinda twist the knife.”
No instead we’d be subjected to wails of overly-dramatic outrage from Clinton and her supporters. Cries of sexism, and “shame on you”! And why? Because she and some of her faithful just looooove to play victim. Some Obama supporters like playing the role too, but most of them aren’t sent out with talking points to parrot incessantly.
So while she went there, the bigger bone to pick seems to be with the fact the media went there–even the Tuzla thing was petty on their part. Notice Obama didn’t feel the same need to return the knife twisting on that one. Obama Class vs. Clinton Crass.
I’d love to see her unfavorables in the coming days–she was gleefully smug and spiteful when twisting the knife, even though she did excel in displaying her admirable skills on discussing policy and deserves the points she always get on that score. It’s a shame for her we have such an emotionally-based electorate, and the emotions roughly half of the country feel for her is dislike. She didn’t win any friends on that score last night.
It would be deliciously ironic if she paid the price for it in PA. NH with a twist. But I’m not counting on it. PA is hers to lose.
Sojourner
Is Obama patriotic enough?
Wrong question.
Are the American people smart enough to elect a thoughtful and component president?
Doesn’t look promising.
Dug Jay
Obviously you didn’t watch the debate or you wouldn’t embarrass yourself with such a boldfaced lie. Go watch the replay available on the ABCnews.com website, or go look at an excerpt available at FOXNews.com from the debate that includes the relevant comment in which Obama states that he “disowns” the Reverand Wright. The applicable excerpt appears approximately one minute into the clip.
Conservatively Liberal
Fucking rAmen! That is succinct and to the point.
Fixed.
I have to wonder if the ‘finger’ was a conscious or subconscious move on his part. I have used the same gesture just as subtly when trying to deal politely with an asshole face to face and got away with it. Or in a more deliberate manner towards a friend just to flip them some shit in a good natured way when they say something that is BS.
I hope it was deliberate, and I would not blame him for a second for using a subtle gesture like that. If attention is drawn to it by Hillary or her supporters, it will only hearten Obama supporters that they ‘got it’. Either way, if he did it deliberately, she earned it. If not, it sure was a great coincidence! Win-win, and that is just fine with me!
Score 2 points for the MUP! :D
Cain
So he likes McCain then? Although I’m not sure old assholes are his style. Maybe he wants two old assholes going at it. I know bad visual. :-)
cain
TR
No, he disowned the comments, not the man.
As the follow-up made clear, “comments” was the object of the sentence, modified by two consecutive phrases, as in “comments not made by me…” and “comments that I have disowned.”
If he’d said “who I have disowned,” then maybe the clause would’ve applied to Wright, a person. But “that” refers to “comments.”
I’m sure they have some excellent ESL classes in your area if you’d like some help.
Dreggas
Ya know, that is what I thought AFTER posting the original comment…
Dreggas
well gauging by McCain’s wife, McCain is the chickenhawk type, perhaps Duggie is just his style.
tjproudamerican
Balloon Juice is one of my saving graces.
Thanks for the video.
It is time for The Clinton’s to go.
Actually, it would have been better for America and the Democratic Party if The Clinton’s had stayed Hillbilly schemers, and Bill was punished for the way his typical Sex Addict behavior took advantage of so many women who he exploited like Paula Jones.
Liberals like me owe Bill’s victims an apology. The Democratic Party and my home state of New York owe America an apology. We elect corrupt self serving people like Hillary and Al D’Amato. At least D’Amato didn’t pretend he was a victim and run for President. D’Amato knew he was a liar and a fake in the game for all he could get.
The Clinton’s are not only liars, they think they are statesmen.
They and their supporters are aging, pathetic fakes.
John S.
Well said. I couldn’t agree more.
Cain
I thought Hillary was doing a fairly good job for the state of new york? I don’t really consider her “corrupt” per se. She definitely has a myopic drive towards power and will play dirty to get it. OK, never mind, she’s corrupt ;)
cain