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You are here: Home / Politics / Media / The Debate

The Debate

by Tim F|  April 17, 200810:25 pm| 56 Comments

This post is in: Media, General Stupidity

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It sure seemed weird that the moderators of a Democratic primary debate picked up interrogation tips from Sean Hannity. Is this some sort of aberration for ABC? A self-described industry insider at Kos says no.

I have had, over the years, some interactions with top ABC executives. At a funeral, the then-president of the network stormed off after we got into a discussion of the Iran/Contra scandal. He declared that Bill Casey was “the greatest patriot this country has ever known” (George Washington, Abe Lincoln, FDR, MLK… chopped liver compared to Casey), who apparently did the country a great service by undermining the constitution.

In short, last night’s debate was not so much a change in the media’s outlook, but rather a change in that ABC no longer feels the need to maintain any pretense of objectivity and wisdom.

Is the guy right that ABC is run by right wing nuts who describe selling arms to Iran as the height of patriotism? How the hell should I know. But I think it is a funny coincidence that ABC is the same network that paid an acknowledged rightwing activist to direct a comically slanted “documentary” that blamed Clinton’s penis for 9/11. The handling of that episode by ABC News (advance screenings for conservative pundits only, fabrications and known myths all knocking Democrats, no pet goat, etc etc) demonstrated as well as any story could that the network’s executives have a personal slant only a few degrees removed from horizontal.

The partisan disease doesn’t permeate ABC News like it does over at FOX; nonetheless whatever recessed boil produced Path to 9/11 clearly hasn’t gone away. It won’t shock me if the stakes/pressure of this election kick out a few more embarrassments on the same level as yesterday’s “debate.”

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Reader Interactions

56Comments

  1. 1.

    calipygian

    April 17, 2008 at 10:47 pm

    Gibson thinks 200k/year is solidly middle class. Thats who their target audience is – an audience that makes a median income of 200k/year, i.e. the top 3 percent of the population.

    I bet among them, the debate was a wild success.

  2. 2.

    ThymeZone

    April 17, 2008 at 10:53 pm

    So, they’ll take their universal condemnation of the debate as a badge of honor, a trophy for their wingnut audience?

  3. 3.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    April 17, 2008 at 10:56 pm

    Comedy gold, courtesy of publius at ObsidianWings:

    The Lincoln-Douglas Debate of 1858, as moderated by Charlie Gibson and George Stephanopoulos

  4. 4.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    April 17, 2008 at 11:09 pm

    The partisan disease doesn’t permeate ABC News like it does over at FOX; nonetheless whatever recessed boil produced Path to 9/11 clearly hasn’t gone away.

    In some ways ABC News is getting to be worse than Fox now that the latter’s agenda has been so exposed, because ABC is using their reputation built up by Ted Koppel and Peter Jennings as camouflage for their current partisan agenda. Fox is like a B-52, ABC is more like a Stealth bomber.

    I’m not sure I understand the thinking behind their business model, since ABC’s hard turn to the right seems to roughly coincide in time with the mood of the country shifting left. I can think of two explanations, either:

    (1) Like a large oil tanker, it takes a long time to turn the ideological direction of a network news division around, so we are seeing the results of a change which occurred circa 2002-2003 and which has been slowly emerging over a period of years since.

    or

    (2) They may think that conventional broadcast TV is going to have a shrinking audience increasingly concentrated on the political right, as progressives move in largernumber to alternative media for news, leaving them in competition with Fox for what’s left.

  5. 5.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    April 17, 2008 at 11:12 pm

    as progressives move in larger numbers

    fixed

  6. 6.

    The Grand Panjandrum

    April 17, 2008 at 11:13 pm

    Not exactly OT but Howard Dean weighed in tonight, and it sounds like he’s seen enough of this shit.(My emphasis added)

    An increasingly firm Howard Dean told CNN again Thursday that he needs superdelegates to say who they’re for – and “I need them to say who they’re for starting now.”

    “We cannot give up two or three months of active campaigning and healing time,” the Democratic National Committee Chairman told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer. “We’ve got to know who our nominee is.”

    It sounds like he’s ready for the GE campaign to start.

  7. 7.

    Incertus

    April 17, 2008 at 11:17 pm

    Is it just me, or does it seem like ABC started slipping when Peter Jennings died, and has gone completely off its rockers since Koppel left?

  8. 8.

    Cain

    April 17, 2008 at 11:19 pm

    Go Dean!!

    I love that guy.

    Before I was an Obamaiac, i was a Deaniac. I scream for Dean!

    cain

  9. 9.

    Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop

    April 17, 2008 at 11:20 pm

    If anything, any perceived bias at last night’s debate would have to be adjudged to be pro-Hillary, not pro-Republican. If ABC wanted to get a Republican elected, they’d have let Obama slide until a McCain-Obama debate. As it is, this will be old news by then. But gosh, why would George Snuffleuffagus be pro-Hillary? Hmmmmm, I just can’t figure it out.

    Second, this diarist must’ve never heard of the famous Halperin Memo from 2004, in which ABC news political director told its employees to hold George Bush to a higher standard of truth than they held John Kerry.

    Kerry distorts, takes out of context, and mistakes all the time, but these are not central to his efforts to win.

    We have a responsibility to hold both sides accountable to the public interest, but that doesn’t mean we reflexively and artificially hold both sides “equally” accountable when the facts don’t warrant that.

    Yeah, the ABC news department sound like GOP shills, except for that one part where they tried to get Kerry elected! So I hate to say that I know more about ABC’s bias than a guy on the internet who claims have once been on the inside, but, well, apparently I do.

  10. 10.

    Tattoosydney

    April 17, 2008 at 11:25 pm

    It may be a coincidence, but ABC’s web site appears to be down… maybe their servers exploded from too much bile being poured on them …

  11. 11.

    firebrand

    April 17, 2008 at 11:30 pm

    I wonder if all those media elites and Clinton/Republican operatives realize the tectonic earthquake that will come in the electorate in the years to come. We’ve all been forged in the fire of all of this B.S., and we’re solidly against all the nonsense of the Bush/Clinton years. The Obama campaign is our generation’s first, and look at what we’ve been able to do so far! Within a decade or two, we are going to own the Democratic party, BURY the Republican party, and start changing this country for the better. After we’re done with conservatives, they’ll still be reeling from our knockout blows well into the latter part of this century. The future belongs to us, and we’re taking it starting right now.

  12. 12.

    Cain

    April 17, 2008 at 11:31 pm

    BTW here is a decent article on Hillary vs Obama. The one point I haven’t seen discussed here w.r.t superdelegates is the fact that a lot of super delegates (1/3) are going to be up for re-election and going against the popular vote might put their positions in jeapordy.

    cain

  13. 13.

    Fwiffo

    April 17, 2008 at 11:32 pm

    I bet you thought Hillary supporters couldn’t get any crazier than orange-juice-gate, bowling-gate or bitter-gate.

    You’d be wrong.

  14. 14.

    Martin

    April 17, 2008 at 11:37 pm

    If anything, any perceived bias at last night’s debate would have to be adjudged to be pro-Hillary, not pro-Republican. If ABC wanted to get a Republican elected, they’d have let Obama slide until a McCain-Obama debate.

    I don’t think it was a hit job against one candidate or another. Rather, I think they approached this debate as they would have approached a GOP debate. Republican voters tend to go for character over policy and Dems the reverse. Thats one reason why guys like Kerry and Gore do extra poorly when the nation leans right.

    The debate last night put character over policy. It was set up like a GOP debate, not a Democratic one – and Democrats reacted angrily to the format. I know everyone assumes the outrage is along Obama/Clinton lines, but it doesn’t look that way if you really look. Sure, among the hardcore, but most non-hardcore Dems are pissed at ABC – many who are Clinton supporters. The debate was insulting to the audience. Nobody was terribly happy with the CNN religion thing this week either and the candidates both did fine – same problem. Character over policy.

    When Clinton didn’t wave any of it off, even the stuff against her, the kneejerk reaction is to call her a Republican because she was accepting of the nature of the debate – and a Democrat shouldn’t. I think it’s an unfair attribution to her, but that’s the basis of it. If the GOP wants to fight over who is more Reaganesque, that’s fine – that’s their game, it’s not ours. ABC needs to pay attention to who the audience is.

  15. 15.

    The Other Steve

    April 17, 2008 at 11:41 pm

    If anything, any perceived bias at last night’s debate would have to be adjudged to be pro-Hillary, not pro-Republican. If ABC wanted to get a Republican elected, they’d have let Obama slide until a McCain-Obama debate. As it is, this will be old news by then. But gosh, why would George Snuffleuffagus be pro-Hillary? Hmmmmm, I just can’t figure it out.

    Agreed, well, about the pro-Clinton part.

    Yeah, the ABC news department sound like GOP shills, except for that one part where they tried to get Kerry elected! So I hate to say that I know more about ABC’s bias than a guy on the internet who claims have once been on the inside, but, well, apparently I do.

    However, what you quoted does not support this statement.

    I realize that you whiny babies like to play the perpetual victim, but I mean jesus christ, don’t you yourself get tired of all the crying and whining?

  16. 16.

    The Other Steve

    April 17, 2008 at 11:45 pm

    When Clinton didn’t wave any of it off, even the stuff against her, the kneejerk reaction is to call her a Republican because she was accepting of the nature of the debate – and a Democrat shouldn’t. I think it’s an unfair attribution to her, but that’s the basis of it. If the GOP wants to fight over who is more Reaganesque, that’s fine – that’s their game, it’s not ours. ABC needs to pay attention to who the audience is.

    I do understand what you are saying, but Snufflelupagus worked for the Clinton’s and has shown a clear pro-Clinton position in the past on This Week. This may certainly explain Gibson’s bizarre behavior.

    I do think you are right though, about the expectations of the different groups.

  17. 17.

    MobiusKlein

    April 17, 2008 at 11:47 pm

    there are a few at myDD who don’t go so far wacked

  18. 18.

    Cain

    April 17, 2008 at 11:52 pm

    Heh. I figured someone was going to blog about middle-finger-gate. I don’t think he did anything wrong. Showing a little attitude is always good.

    That said, I’ll be honest, if Hillary did that I’d probably be outraged but then we all react to things we don’t like in much the same way don’t we? Now.. who wants to group hug with Hillary supporters? myiq>u?

    cain

  19. 19.

    myiq2xu

    April 17, 2008 at 11:57 pm

    The only thing unusual about last night’s debate was that Obama got treated like a Democrat.

    Where was the outrage and the cries for party unity against the media when Hillary was the only target?

    I don’t remember Tim F. doing a post with MSNBC’s number urging people to call and complain when Hillary was getting ganged up on by Gregory and Russert.

    H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y

  20. 20.

    Martin

    April 17, 2008 at 11:58 pm

    I bet you thought Hillary supporters couldn’t get any crazier than orange-juice-gate, bowling-gate or bitter-gate.

    I expect that p.luk is carefully examining video footage of Obama over the last few days. I have it on good authority that Obama is now loose hanging to the right, which obviously means that he thinks Hillary is a right-wing dick. Previously he was consistently a left-hanger, neatly packed.

  21. 21.

    Martin

    April 18, 2008 at 12:03 am

    Miq-

    I’ve posted the questions from both debates twice now. Reply to them and stop making shit up please. I know you’ve seen them.

  22. 22.

    myiq2xu

    April 18, 2008 at 12:09 am

    Reply to them and stop making shit up please.

    That would be BeLOW ME.

  23. 23.

    Pooh

    April 18, 2008 at 12:13 am

    Where was the outrage and the cries for party unity against the media when Hillary was the only target?

    Why are you still peddling this shit when it was demonstrated to be, well, SHIT, last thread?

    You somehow thread the needle of being both completely, drearily dull yet totally maddeningly nettlesome. Congrats on that I guess.

  24. 24.

    jnfr

    April 18, 2008 at 12:31 am

    Seen this yet? That’s not a debate, that’s a hit job.

  25. 25.

    Beej

    April 18, 2008 at 12:31 am

    Martin,

    Repub voters go for character over issues because that is all the repubs have going for them and most of that is a Rovian lie. Go read Glenn Greenwald’s post at salon.com today. Highly illuminating.

  26. 26.

    Beej

    April 18, 2008 at 12:37 am

    By the way, there’s a commentor of Greenwald’s who has posted an extensive list of who to contact at ABC News. That’s in case anyone would like to shoot off an email.

  27. 27.

    Cain

    April 18, 2008 at 12:42 am

    Where was the outrage and the cries for party unity against the media when Hillary was the only target?

    Actually John was supporting back around Super Tuesday. Don’t you remember the whole Tweety doing the Hillary hate that whole meme. I know John was totally against all that. So at least on this blog she wasn’t demonized.

    There will always be party unity against the media. Now, don’t you want to hug me? just a little?

    cain

  28. 28.

    Martin

    April 18, 2008 at 12:43 am

    Actually, I just realized I grabbed the wrong debate. Here’s the one where ‘Hillary is the only target’:

    MR. WILLIAMS: Senator Clinton, we’re here in Ohio. Senator Obama is here. This is the debate. You would agree the difference in tone over just those 48 hours was striking.MR. WILLIAMS: On the topic of accurate information, and to that end, one of the things that has happened over the past 36 hours — a photo went out the website The Drudge Report, showing Senator Obama in the native garb of a nation he was visiting, as you have done in a host country on a trip overseas.
    Matt Drudge on his website said it came from a source inside the Clinton campaign. Can you say unequivocally here tonight it did not?
    MR. WILLIAMS: Well, a 16-minute discussion on health care is certainly a start. (Laughter.) I’d like to change up —
    MR. WILLIAMS: I — well, here’s another important topic, and that’s NAFTA, especially where we’re sitting here tonight. And this is a tough one depending on who you ask. The Houston Chronicle has called it a big win for Texas, but Ohio Democratic Senator Brown, your colleague in the Senate, has called it a job-killing trade agreement. Senator Clinton, you’ve campaigned in south Texas. You’ve campaigned here in Ohio. Who’s right?
    MR. RUSSERT: I want to ask you both about NAFTA because the record, I think, is clear. And I want to — Senator Clinton. Senator Obama said that you did say in 2004 that on balance NAFTA has been good for New York and America. You did say that. When President Clinton signed this bill — and this was after he negotiated two new side agreements, for labor and environment — President Clinton said it would be a force for economic growth and social progress. You said in ’96 it was proving its worth as free and fair trade. You said that — in 2000 — it was a good idea that took political courage. So your record is pretty clear.
    Based on that, and which you’re now expressing your discomfort with it, in the debate that Al Gore had with Ross Perot, Al Gore said the following: “If you don’t like NAFTA and what it’s done, we can get out of it in six months.
    The president can say to Canada and Mexico, we are out. This has not been a good agreement.” Will U.S. president say we are out of NAFTA in six months?
    MR. RUSSERT: You will get out. You will notify Mexico and Canada, NAFTA is gone in six months.
    MR. RUSSERT: We’re going to get — we’re going to get to Senator Obama, but I want to stay on your terms —
    MR. RUSSERT: — because this was something that you wrote about as a real success for your husband. You said it was good on balance for New York and America in 2004, and now you’re in Ohio and your words are much different, Senator. The record is very clear.
    MR. RUSSERT: But let me button this up. Absent the change that you’re suggesting, you are willing to opt out of NAFTA in six months?
    MR. RUSSERT: Senator Obama, you did in 2004 talk to farmers and suggest that NAFTA had been helpful. The Associated Press today ran a story about NAFTA, saying that you have been consistently ambivalent towards the issue. Simple question: Will you, as president, say to Canada and Mexico, “This has not worked for us; we are out”?
    MR. RUSSERT: Senator, two journalists here in Ohio wrote a piece called “Business as Usual,” which is very well known, suggesting it wasn’t trade or manufacturing jobs that were being lost because of it, but rather business as usual: lack of patents, lack of innovation, lack of investment, 70 percent of the Ph.D.s in biology, chemistry, engineering leaving the state.
    The fact is, exports now have the highest share of our national income ever. Ohio ranks fourth in terms of exports to Canada and Mexico. Are you sure this has not been better for Ohio than you’re suggesting?
    MR. RUSSERT: Senator Clinton, on the issue of jobs, I watched you the other day with your economic blueprint in Wisconsin saying, this is my plan; hold me accountable. And I’ve had a chance to read it very carefully. It does say that you pledge to create 5 million new jobs over 10 years.
    And I was reminded of your campaign in 2000 in Buffalo, my hometown, just three hours down Route 90, where you pledged 200,000 new jobs for upstate New York. There’s been a net loss of 30,000 jobs. And when you were asked about your pledge, your commitment, you told The Buffalo News, “I might have been a little exuberant.” Tonight will you say that the pledge of 5 million jobs might be a little exuberant?
    MR. WILLIAMS: Senator Obama, yesterday Senator Clinton gave a speech on foreign policy and I’m going to read you a quote from it. Quote, “We’ve seen the tragic result of having a president who had neither the experience nor the wisdom to manage our foreign policy and safeguard our national security. We cannot let that happen again. America has already taken that chance one time too many.” Some of the comments in the speech were more pointed. The senator has compared your foreign policy expertise to that of George W. Bush at the same period. Provided you could be going into a general election against a Republican with vast foreign policy expertise and credibility on national security, how were her comments about you unfair?
    MR. WILLIAMS: Well, Senator Clinton, in the last debate you seemed to take a pass on the question of whether or not Senator Obama was qualified to be commander in chief. Is your contention in this latest speech that America would somehow be taking a chance on Senator Obama as commander in chief?
    MR. RUSSERT: Let me talk about the future — let me talk the future about Iraq, because this is important, I think, to Democratic voters particularly. You both have pledged the withdrawal of troops from Iraq. You both have said you’d keep a residual force there to protect our embassy, to seek out al Qaeda, to neutralize Iran. If the Iraqi government said, President Clinton or President Obama, you’re pulling out your troops this quickly?
    You’re going to be gone in a year, but you’re going to leave a residual force behind? No. Get out. Get out now. If you don’t want to stay and protect us, we’re a sovereign nation. Go home now.” Will you leave?
    MR. RUSSERT: Senator Clinton, if the Iraqis said I’m sorry, we’re not happy with this arrangement; if you’re not going to stay in total and defend us, get out completely; they are a sovereign nation, you would listen?
    MR. RUSSERT: I want to ask both of you this question, then. If we — if this scenario plays out and the Americans get out in total and al Qaeda resurges and Iraq goes to hell, do you hold the right, in your mind as American president, to re-invade, to go back into Iraq to stabilize it?
    MR. WILLIAMS: — we are just now welcoming back both of our candidates to the stage and asking our cooperation of the audience.
    We’re back live tonight in Cleveland, Ohio.
    Senator Obama, we started tonight talking about what could be construed as a little hyperbole. Happens from time to time on the campaign trail. You have recently been called out on some yourself. I urge you to look at your monitor and we’ll take a look.
    MR. WILLIAMS: Of all the charges — (laughter, applause) — of all the charges and countercharges made tonight, we can confirm that is not you, Senator Obama.
    MR. WILLIAMS: That was Senator Clinton. But since we played that tape, albeit in error, for this segment, how did you take that?
    MR. WILLIAMS: How did you take those remarks when you heard them?
    MR. WILLIAMS: Well, let me ask you, Senator Clinton: What did you mean by that piece of videotape we saw from the campaign?
    MR. WILLIAMS: What I was attempting to do here is to show something Senator Obama said about you, and I’m told it’s ready.
    MR. WILLIAMS: Now, Senator Obama, you can react to it and whatever you wanted to react to from earlier, but I’ve been wanting to ask you about this assertion that Senator Clinton has somehow cast herself as co-president.
    MR. RUSSERT: Senator Obama, let me ask you about motivating, inspiring, keeping your word. Nothing more important. Last year you said if you were the nominee you would opt for public financing in the general election of the campaign; try to get some of the money out. You checked “Yes” on a questionnaire. And now Senator McCain has said, calling your bluff, let’s do it. You seem to be waffling, saying, well, if we can work on an arrangement here.
    Why won’t you keep your word in writing that you made to abide by public financing of the fall election?
    MR. RUSSERT: So you may opt out of public financing. You may break your word.
    MR. RUSSERT: Senator Clinton, an issue of accountability and credibility. You have loaned your campaign $5 million. You and your husband file a joint return. You refuse to release that joint return, even though former President Clinton has had significant overseas business dealings.
    Your chief supporter here in Ohio, Governor Strickland, made releasing his opponent’s tax return one of the primary issues of the campaign, saying repeatedly, “Accountability, transparency.” If he’s not releasing, his campaign said, his tax return, what is he hiding? We should question what’s going on.
    Why won’t you release your tax return, so the voters of Ohio, Texas, Vermont, Rhode Island know exactly where you and your husband got your money, who might be in part bankrolling your campaign?
    MR. RUSSERT: Why not now?
    MR. RUSSERT: So, before next Tuesday’s primary?
    MR. RUSSERT: One other issue. You talked about releasing documents. On January 30th, the National Archives released 10,000 pages of your public schedule as first lady. It’s now in the custody of former President Clinton. Will you release that — again, during this primary season that you claim that eight years of experience, let the public know what you did, who you met with those eight years?
    MR. RUSSERT: But you’ve had it for more than a month. Will you get to him — will you get it to the White House immediately?
    MR. RUSSERT: Senator Obama, one of the things in a campaign is that you have to react to unexpected developments.
    On Sunday, the headline in your hometown paper, Chicago Tribune: “Louis Farrakhan Backs Obama for President at Nation of Islam Convention in Chicago.” Do you accept the support of Louis Farrakhan?
    MR. RUSSERT: Do you reject his support?
    MR. RUSSERT: The problem some voters may have is, as you know, Reverend Farrakhan called Judaism “gutter religion.”
    RUSSERT: The title of one of your books, “Audacity of Hope,” you acknowledge you got from a sermon from Reverend Jeremiah Wright, the head of the Trinity United Church. He said that Louis Farrakhan “epitomizes greatness.”
    He said that he went to Libya in 1984 with Louis Farrakhan to visit with Moammar Gadhafi and that, when your political opponents found out about that, quote, “your Jewish support would dry up quicker than a snowball in Hell.”
    RUSSERT: What do you do to assure Jewish-Americans that, whether it’s Farrakhan’s support or the activities of Reverend Jeremiah Wright, your pastor, you are consistent with issues regarding Israel and not in any way suggesting that Farrakhan epitomizes greatness?
    WILLIAMS: Rare audience outburst on the agreement over rejecting and renouncing.
    WILLIAMS: We are back from Cleveland State University. We continue with our debate.
    The question beginning this segment is for you, Senator Obama.
    The National Journal rates your voting record as more liberal than that of Ted Kennedy.
    In a general election, going up against a Republican Party, looking for converts, Republicans, independents, how can you run with a more liberal voting record than Ted Kennedy?
    WILLIAMS: Let’s go from domestic to foreign affairs and Tim Russert.
    RUSSERT: Before the primary on Tuesday, on Sunday, March 2, there’s an election in Russia for the successor to President Putin. What can you tell me about the man who’s going to be Mr. Putin’s successor?
    RUSSERT: Who will it be? Do you know his name?
    RUSSERT: Senator Obama, do you know anything about him?
    RUSSERT: He’s 42 years old, he’s a former law professor. He is Mr. Putin’s campaign manager. He is going to be the new president of Russia. And if he says to the Russian troops, you know what, why don’t you go help Serbia retake Kosovo, what does President Obama do?
    RUSSERT: Before you go, each of you have talked about your careers in public service. Looking back through them, is there any words or vote that you’d like to take back?
    Senator Clinton?
    RUSSERT: But to be clear, you’d like to have your vote back?
    RUSSERT: Senator Obama, any statements or vote you’d like to take back?
    RUSSERT: This is the young woman with the feeding tube…
    RUSSERT: … and the family disagreed as to whether it should be removed or not.
    RUSSERT: But the voters can only choose one, Brian.
    WILLIAMS: Well, we don’t have such thing in our format as a closing statement, but I am going to ask a closing and fundamental question of you both. And I’ll ask it of you fist, Senator Obama.
    What is the fundamental question you believe Senator Clinton must answer along the way to the voters here in Ohio and in Texas, and for that matter across the country, in order to prove her worthiness as the nominee? And then we will ask the same question of Senator Clinton.
    WILLIAMS: Senator Clinton, same question, and that is again — is there a fundamental question Senator Obama must answer to the voters in this state and others as to his worthiness?

    I took out all the interjections and whatnot.

    Heathcare
    NAFTA
    Jobs (some meta on keeping word)
    Clinton Meta (natl security hit from Clinton)
    Iraq
    Clinton Meta (Clinton swipe at Obama)
    Obama Meta (Obama swipe at Clinton)
    Obama Finance pledge (some meta on keeping word)
    Clinton tax returns (Ohio gov race tie-in)
    Clinton National Archives
    Farrakhan
    Obama liberal voting
    Putin
    Take back vote (both)
    Question must answer (both)

    Now, Russert is harder on Clinton on NAFTA and jobs but she had a huge lead off on healthcare. While there are some meta questions, the debate didn’t dwell on them like the last debate and each had the same number of topics.

  29. 29.

    Martin

    April 18, 2008 at 12:46 am

    That would be BeLOW ME.

    Nice. So you want to come in here and tell us to all fuck off and then when we challenge you on your shit you want to tell us to all fuck off.

    Well, fuck off.

  30. 30.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    April 18, 2008 at 12:49 am

    The only thing unusual about last night’s debate was that Obama got treated like a Democrat.

    Right there, myiq.

    THAT’S where us Obamabots diverge from you and start looking at you weird.

    The *first and only step* to stopping the pattern of victimhood is to stop being open to being a victim. Only after the Republicans see that the Dems have a nice, jagged, stabby shank in their hand will they stop playing to dominate (“Hussein Osama”) and start playing defense (the actual issues).

    We get some of your attachment. Hillary is an old battle-axe geared to claw her way to the finish-line. But there are arrangements in life where a person’s only chance to win is also going to guarantee their loss. If Hillary goes into the arena, Republicans will stick to their methods of perversion, and Hillary will lose because the argument won’t be about the Democrats having a more-sane policy.

    If Obama goes in… well, maybe they’ll keep their dickish methods. But maybe they won’t. And, man, does that “maybe” look awful delicious to us.

  31. 31.

    Cain

    April 18, 2008 at 12:51 am

    jnfr Says:

    Seen this yet? That’s not a debate, that’s a hit job.

    Yeah, and I saw another article that went into more detail about the woman’s life. I feel bad for her and especially for her husband. I can understand why she might feel a bit miffed at the meteoric rise of Obama compared to Hillary in her own mind. But damn, her husband had like 3 by-passes, back problems, and now he’s having brain surgery. WTF?

    Maybe she can use her new rockstar status to go and raise some cash for her and her husband.

    cain

  32. 32.

    Rick Taylor

    April 18, 2008 at 12:55 am

    It sure seemed a bit weird that the moderators of a Democratic primary debate picked up interrogation tips from Sean Hannity.

    At the hardball college tour, Peter Doocy, Steve Doocy’s son (a co-anchor at Fox news) got to ask McCain a question. He chose, “Hi Senator McCain, my name is Peter Doocy, I’m a Junior here and I’m sure you saw one of your Democratic opponents, Hillary Clinton, recently drinking whiskey shots with some potential voters. Now, I was wondering if you think she has finally resorted to hitting the sauce just because of some unfavorable polling and I was wondering if you’d care to join me for a shot?”

  33. 33.

    Martin

    April 18, 2008 at 12:59 am

    But damn, her husband had like 3 by-passes, back problems, and now he’s having brain surgery. WTF?

    But in spite of all of that, Obama’s flag pin is still her key voting issue.

    What was Obama saying about bitter voters clinging to shit instead of voting their economic interests again?

  34. 34.

    John B.

    April 18, 2008 at 1:06 am

    Something I have not seen mentioned, which may or may not have any weight.

    Sean Hannity’s contract through ABC Radio. ABC and Hannity are not two incongruous elements, even if I’m remembering correctly and ABC Radio was bought out.

  35. 35.

    Martin

    April 18, 2008 at 1:08 am

    Whoa. Didn’t see that coming:

    Deputy Prime Minister Eli Yishai asked former U.S. President Jimmy Carter to tell Hamas leaders, including Khaled Meshal, that he would like to meet in order to expedite a prisoner exchange that would bring home kidnapped soldier Gilad Shalit.

    A lot of people gotta eat crow now. Obama included. He didn’t agree with Carter going.

  36. 36.

    Martin

    April 18, 2008 at 1:19 am

    And Hillary’s old boyfriend endorses Obama:

    But Reich insists that the endorsement does indeed come as a surprise — to him. As we chatted in Washington, where Reich had come from Berkeley, where he teaches, to give a speech and meet with some Democrats on Capitol Hill, he explained that, despite the criticisms he’s made of the Clintons (“I call it as I see it”), he had planned to refrain from offering an official backing for Obama out of respect for Hillary. “She’s an old friend,” Reich said, “I’ve known her 40 years. I was absolutely dead set against getting into the whole endorsement thing. I’ve struggled with it. I’ve not wanted to do it. Out of loyalty to her, I just felt it would be inappropriate.”

    So what’s changed? I asked Reich.

    “I saw the ads” — the negative man-on-street commercials that the Clinton campaign put up in Pennsylvania in the wake of Obama’s bitter/cling comments a week ago — “and I was appalled, frankly. I thought it represented the nadir of mean-spirited, negative politics. And also of the politics of distraction, of gotcha politics. It’s the worst of all worlds. We have three terrible traditions that we’ve developed in American campaigns. One is outright meanness and negativity. The second is taking out of context something your opponent said, maybe inartfully, and blowing it up into something your opponent doesn’t possibly believe and doesn’t possibly represent. And third is a kind of tradition of distraction, of getting off the big subject with sideshows that have nothing to do with what matters. And these three aspects of the old politics I’ve seen growing in Hillary’s campaign. And I’ve come to the point, after seeing those ads, where I can’t in good conscience not say out loud what I believe about who should be president. Those ads are nothing but Republicanism. They’re lending legitimacy to a Republican message that’s wrong to begin with, and they harken back to the past 20 years of demagoguery on guns and religion. It’s old politics at its worst — and old Republican politics, not even old Democratic politics. It’s just so deeply cynical.”

    Oh, yeah, he was Bill’s Sec of Labor too. Damn his misogynism. He’s always had it out for Hillary. Piled on through the 90s. [insert trollisms as appropriate]

  37. 37.

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    April 18, 2008 at 1:25 am

    Gibson thinks 200k/year is solidly middle class. Thats who their target audience is – an audience that makes a median income of 200k/year, i.e. the top 3 percent of the population.

    Oh, BTW: Sociologically speaking, 200K is still “Middle Class” or “Upper Middle Class”. “Upper Class” is reserved for that super-extreme end where they have so much in assets that a yearly salary is inconsequential to them. Jet Setters and old money, and such.

  38. 38.

    Fledermaus

    April 18, 2008 at 1:34 am

    That would be BLOW ME.

    Clever. You’re a clever guy. Hope that’s working out for you.

  39. 39.

    Cain

    April 18, 2008 at 2:06 am

    But in spite of all of that, Obama’s flag pin is still her key voting issue.

    What was Obama saying about bitter voters clinging to shit instead of voting their economic interests again?

    That would be true if she voted Republican. People with a lot of issues/stress in their lives tend to go out of whack on stupid stuff. Hillary’s health plan and Obama’s are relatively the same so at least her medical benefits would hopefully be covered. As for the jobs, dunno.

    cain

  40. 40.

    Martin

    April 18, 2008 at 2:10 am

    Hillary’s health plan and Obama’s are relatively the same so at least her medical benefits would hopefully be covered. As for the jobs, dunno.

    But she’s not even open minded to Obama’s health plan or jobs. He might offer her the best economic opportunity, but she’s still stuck on the pin. Clinton very well may offer her the best economic opportunity, so why care about the pin? That’s the problem. Even if she’s picking the right candidate but for totally the wrong reason, his point still stands.

  41. 41.

    Ninerdave

    April 18, 2008 at 2:19 am

    Incertus Says:

    Is it just me, or does it seem like ABC started slipping when Peter Jennings died, and has gone completely off its rockers since Koppel left?

    Yes. I used to live by ABC News, now I can’t watch it period. Have you seen how they shit all over Nightline?

    While I love KGO (what real talk radio should sound like). They are an ABC affiliate and even their Radio news sucks anymore. I flip to the CBS affiliate at the top of the hour for news.

  42. 42.

    Phoebe

    April 18, 2008 at 2:20 am

    Yeah I got all excited about Dean saying the superdelegates needed to decide NOW, but then he wound up saying they need to all have voted by June 3rd, the last primary.

    F that. I had to make my decision by Febuary 9th, why should the superdelegates get until the very last minute if we want to wrap this up? If they are nervous about going against their constituents, then that still doesn’t explain the bunch of supers whose constituents have already voted.

    Unless they’re just waiting for Obama to make himself unelectable with some huge gaffe. Like lying repeatedly about being under sniper fire until caught by a youtube. It might happen!

  43. 43.

    Johnny Pez

    April 18, 2008 at 2:22 am

    I’d just like to take this opportunity to note that Melissa McEwan seems to be going a little nuts.

  44. 44.

    Johnny Pez

    April 18, 2008 at 2:25 am

    Is it just me, or does it seem like ABC started slipping when Peter Jennings died, and has gone completely off its rockers since Koppel left?

    It’s not just you.

    Mind you, given how long Mark Halperin was running things over there, you have to figure the rot started to set in early.

  45. 45.

    Conservatively Liberal

    April 18, 2008 at 2:31 am

    I got a whiff of hot goat sex again. myiq3.14159 must have been here recently. He really needs to bathe, but he luvs him that hot goat sex stench. Wraps himself up in it like a security blanket.

    I am sure it keeps everyone else at a distance though. ;)

  46. 46.

    Martin

    April 18, 2008 at 2:33 am

    I’d just like to take this opportunity to note that Melissa McEwan seems to be going a little nuts.

    No, actually she’s right. Kos really shouldn’t be calling her out as a Republican – it really is a damaging thing to say toward Obama. Kos carries some weight – especially with the netroots and there are a lot of Clinton supporters that will need to be brought back into the fold should Obama win the nom.

    Granted, Armando and Jerome haven’t exactly carried their weight toward party unity either. But I have to say, mydd is getting wicked ugly again. There’s just no common ground there. Middle-finger-gate might be the last straw, I think.

  47. 47.

    Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop

    April 18, 2008 at 2:35 am

    Rather, I think they approached this debate as they would have approached a GOP debate. Republican voters tend to go for character over policy and Dems the reverse.

    You might assert that, but the reverse seems to be true…

    The survey by The Associated Press and Yahoo! News…finds, Democrats are weighing personal traits more heavily than policy positions this election season; Republicans are putting greater emphasis on policy.

    Logically, this also bears out. Rudy, the most likable GOP candidate in the survey, lasted about ten minutes because of his issue stances. The two Democratic candidates have short policy track records (less true with Hillary) and are where they are, let’s face it, because they are The Black Candidate and The Woman/Married to Bill Candidate.

  48. 48.

    Conservatively Liberal

    April 18, 2008 at 2:49 am

    The survey by The Associated Press and Yahoo! News…finds, Democrats are weighing being force-fed personal traits by the pundits more heavily than policy positions this election season; Republicans are putting greater emphasis on policy divisive distractions like guns, God and zygotes.

    Fixed.

  49. 49.

    Conservatively Liberal

    April 18, 2008 at 3:35 am

    Ok, this is funny! Colbert had Hillary on doing a skit about helping him with problems on the set. Now read this.

    Seems this has miffed the harpies over at Hillaryis44 so much that they don’t even want to watch it…lol!

  50. 50.

    El Cid

    April 18, 2008 at 4:29 am

    Anyone who’s feeling too much of the “gosh journalism has declined so much”, just go to a library or internet site which has archives over the past 40 or 50 years and read the regular coverage, particularly with regard to U.S. foreign policy in any 3rd world nation.

    Pay particular attention to the ravings of the editorial and columnist pages, which often directly contradict the reporting in the same publication’s pages.

    Everything which is done, no matter how horrific, is a maybe justified, maybe controversial counter-move against the Russkies or the ChiComs.

    Just like how in the 1980s, everyone who was at all serious agreed that the U.S. needed to overthrow the Sandinista government of Nicaragua, and they spent lots of time debating exactly how it should or should not go about it.

    Right wingers can moan all they want about how the traitorous liberal media are full of dudes who were one time on some board which had a Komnist on it and how it simply refuses to demand that homosexuals be immediately executed and how dare they keep teaching evolution in the school, etc., but what the major news media really, really, really, really, really, really hate is anything that is genuinely liberal or, my god, leftist.

  51. 51.

    Xenos

    April 18, 2008 at 4:35 am

    The debate last night put character over policy. It was set up like a GOP debate, not a Democratic one

    The more critical point is that the questions were framed as GOP character issues, in which formal rituals of religious, cultural, and nationalistic dogma are the measure of character. That is, utterly superficial, phony & fake measures of character, at least from a Democratic partisan POV.

    When Gibson stops posing and following up on questions and starts debating Obama from within the GOP framing of what to Democrats are false issues, then ABC has really tipped its hand regarding its agenda.

    And finally, EEEL, Halperin never steps outside the GOP frame (ie the the basic terms of the propagandists running this unfortunate country), and is considered and inside man for the RNC. That memo surely was written to be leaked and to discredit those people who he works for and who work under him who try to be honest journalists. It, and Halperin, are contemptible.

  52. 52.

    Librarian

    April 18, 2008 at 8:55 am

    Of course. We all remember when Mark Halperin went hat in hand to the far right begging for their forgiveness for ABC for being so liberal and asking how ABC can be less liberal in the future. We are seeing the result.

  53. 53.

    The Other Steve

    April 18, 2008 at 9:14 am

    You might assert that, but the reverse seems to be true…

    This article from November 2007 says Obama and Giuliani are the most likeable candidates, but Democrats still prefer Clinton over Obama?

    Now let’s think about that again. What did the guy say?

    Democrats choose policy, Republicans choose personality.

    Hmm… Once again the article doesn’t support your claim. This seems to be a recurring pattern.

  54. 54.

    The Other Steve

    April 18, 2008 at 9:18 am

    Of course. We all remember when Mark Halperin went hat in hand to the far right begging for their forgiveness for ABC for being so liberal and asking how ABC can be less liberal in the future. We are seeing the result.

    EEEL would prefer we all forgot that.

    ABC is a Republican channel, has been for quite some time. I think it would be wise for Democrats to no longer accept debates on their network, just like Fox. If they can’t be fair and balanced, they don’t get the goods.

  55. 55.

    Dreggas

    April 18, 2008 at 9:41 am

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The house of Mouse is nothing but a smiley face put on totalitarianism and fascism.

  56. 56.

    Phoebe

    April 18, 2008 at 4:33 pm

    Conservatively liberal – the link sent me to something about Benedict Arnold. Was it supposed to?

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