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You are here: Home / Elections / Election 2008 / The Hostage Crisis Continues

The Hostage Crisis Continues

by John Cole|  May 7, 20085:12 pm| 141 Comments

This post is in: Election 2008

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MMmm. Clinton Kool-aid. Num num num num:

Clinton backers appeared on early morning television programs to stress that she was still in the race and to urge party leaders and elected officials known as superdelegates not to flee to Obama.

“This candidacy and this campaign continues on,” Clinton communications director Howard Wolfson said on CNN.

This race now is no longer a race, but a hostage crisis. Hillary is surrounded, and she can see the super-delegates through the windows of the bank lobby and she knows they are armed to the teeth, wearing their kevlar vests, weapons sighted, aimed, and with the safeties off. In her heart of hearts she knows it is over, but still she keeps the pistol cocked at the head of the party. Maybe, just maybe, something will happen and she can make it to the fueled plane she demanded be taken to the airport and then she can go away to her big payday. She has come this far, she can’t quit now. Miracles happen.

But it won’t happen. It never does. Not even in the movies, at least not the good ones.

The only thing left to be resolved is how many hostages she kills.

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141Comments

  1. 1.

    Wonk

    May 7, 2008 at 5:17 pm

    You know how this usually ends in the movies, right?

  2. 2.

    Blue Buddha

    May 7, 2008 at 5:19 pm

    . Maybe, just maybe, something will happen and she can make it to the fueled plane she demanded be taken to the airport and then she can go away to her big payday. She has come this far, she can’t quit now. Miracles happen.

    But it won’t happen. It never does. Not even in the movies, at least not the good ones.

    Somehow, this reminded me of Dog Day Afternoon

  3. 3.

    Genine

    May 7, 2008 at 5:19 pm

    Last night, the talking heads were saying she might leave in a high note. Perhaps after she wins Kentucky and Obama wins Oregon.

    Let’s hope so anyway. The poor woman is crazed at this point.

  4. 4.

    flyerhawk

    May 7, 2008 at 5:20 pm

    You thinking Killing Zoe kind of bloodshed, John?

  5. 5.

    Royston Vasey

    May 7, 2008 at 5:23 pm

    In the Die Hard hostage movies it was John McClane who came riding to the rescue…..

    Gulp!… let’s hope it’s not McCain this time round.

    “Yippee-ki-yay, motherfucker”

  6. 6.

    flyerhawk

    May 7, 2008 at 5:24 pm

    Genine,

    If you want to see crazed I suggest you saunter on over to TalkLeft or Corrente. Or if you want to see straight up bat shit insane, check out NoQuarter. They’re thinking about drinking the KoolAid, the Jim Jones kind.

  7. 7.

    Dreggas

    May 7, 2008 at 5:24 pm

    Blue Buddha Says:

    . Maybe, just maybe, something will happen and she can make it to the fueled plane she demanded be taken to the airport and then she can go away to her big payday. She has come this far, she can’t quit now. Miracles happen.

    But it won’t happen. It never does. Not even in the movies, at least not the good ones.

    Somehow, this reminded me of Dog Day Afternoon

    I was thinking the same thing

  8. 8.

    zack

    May 7, 2008 at 5:25 pm

    Overheard….. A brief chat among the last of the Hillary supporters:

    Thelma: But, umm, I don’t know, you know, something’s, like, crossed over in me and I can’t go back, I mean I just couldn’t live.
    Louise Sawyer: I know, I know what you mean. Anyway, don’t wanna end up on the damned Geraldo show.

    [last lines]

    Thelma Dickerson: [with a cliff in front of them and cops behind them]
    Thelma Dickerson: OK, then listen; let’s not get caught.
    Louise Sawyer: What’re you talkin’ about?
    Thelma Dickerson: Let’s keep goin’!
    Louise Sawyer: What d’you mean?
    Thelma Dickerson: …Go.
    Thelma Dickerson: [Thelma nods ahead of them]
    Louise Sawyer: You sure?
    Thelma Dickerson: Yeah.

  9. 9.

    Dennis - SGMM

    May 7, 2008 at 5:29 pm

    The question now is whether Clinton will so damage herself that she’ll lose her Senate seat. I don’t know about anyone else but at this point I would cheerfully contribute to any actual Democrat who ran against her.

  10. 10.

    t jasper parnell

    May 7, 2008 at 5:30 pm

    Off topic, but Brad De Long has now publicly and officially called for Berkley to investigate Yoo’s torture memos with the aim of ascertaining his fitness to teach at Berkley.

  11. 11.

    t4toby

    May 7, 2008 at 5:31 pm

    Great metaphor. But don’t we want a knock-down, drag-out fighter when we take on the Man of Steel?

    I heart the Onion.

  12. 12.

    Ted

    May 7, 2008 at 5:33 pm

    This race now is no longer a race, but a hostage crisis.

    Best metaphor in a long time. And it’s going to infuriate you know who.

  13. 13.

    Jay B.

    May 7, 2008 at 5:33 pm

    Come on. These kinds of stories often come out after what was basically the death knell of the campaign. Edwards didn’t drop out for 3 days after his defeat in South Carolina — and his campaign was saying pretty much the same thing Wolfson was — and then on Jan. 30th, he dropped out.

    The tenor has changed with the establishment too.

    Diane Feinstein is throwing out tepid statements of support and wanting to know ‘what her gameplan is’. McGovern is saying she should quit. Obama is circling Oregon as his “clinch” day. Reports have come out that she’s lending herself money to the campaign.

    The pressure is finally starting to mount and it’s just about over.

  14. 14.

    Genine

    May 7, 2008 at 5:33 pm

    flyerhawk Says:

    Genine,

    If you want to see crazed I suggest you saunter on over to TalkLeft or Corrente. Or if you want to see straight up bat shit insane, check out NoQuarter. They’re thinking about drinking the KoolAid, the Jim Jones kind.

    It’s a product of identity politics, I think. Some people just really want a woman president so badly. Don’t get me wrong, it would be very nice. But I am not going to support a person just because of their gender and race. I was talking with a co-worker today who is older and a Clinton supporter and she was nearly in tears saying she’s been waiting a long time to see a woman president and how much it meant to her. That’s when I had an epiphany that maybe I was kinda being a bitch about Hillary, though I still think its wrong.

    But a lot of people are emotional about this process and somehow think that if she got it, they got it, too. I can understand that in an intellectual way, but that’s about it. I’ve been weird my whole life and never fit in with anybody, so I don’t identify with any group. But that is not the case for all.

    So while I think they’re loony, I can understand it. Not condone, just understand.

  15. 15.

    merrinc

    May 7, 2008 at 5:35 pm

    The only problem with this scenario is that some of those superdelegates are sneaking around the back of that surrounded building, ready to help Hillary sneak through the superduper secret trapdoor so they can whisk her away to a fueled and waiting Air Force One. Or maybe I’m misinterpreting these remarks by Rep. Brad Miller (D-NC).

  16. 16.

    calipygian

    May 7, 2008 at 5:36 pm

    No hostages died in Dog Day Afternoon. I am wondering when Hillary will wade out into a crowd shouting, “Attica! Attica!”

    This post in no way implies that Hillary is running for President so she can afford Bill’s sex change operation.

  17. 17.

    jrg

    May 7, 2008 at 5:37 pm

    I think it’s more like Waco. A cult leader, with an extremely devoted following and great ambitions is surrounded… Hillary Koresh has decided never to give up. If she has to burn the compound and everyone in it, so be it.

    Or maybe this is some sort of semi-surreptitious voter registration drive. Either way, the game is up, and even her campaign knows it.

  18. 18.

    calipygian

    May 7, 2008 at 5:39 pm

    They’re thinking about drinking the KoolAid, the Jim Jones kind.

    Kool Aide gets such a bad rap. Jim actually made everyone drink Grape Flavor Aide.

    If I were the big red guy, I’d sue.

  19. 19.

    DFD

    May 7, 2008 at 5:39 pm

    An emergency like this calls for The Negotiator

  20. 20.

    Josh

    May 7, 2008 at 5:40 pm

    Ewwww…except David Koresh was spawning children with his endless teen brides, and it was her husband’s administration who was responsible for the inferno that killed them all.

  21. 21.

    Dreggas

    May 7, 2008 at 5:41 pm

    And we’ll be dealing with more victims of stockholm syndrome as a result.

  22. 22.

    Wilfred

    May 7, 2008 at 5:41 pm

    Wyoming. Oops, that went to Obama.

  23. 23.

    michael

    May 7, 2008 at 5:49 pm

    ATTICA !

  24. 24.

    rob!

    May 7, 2008 at 5:50 pm

    i don’t really understand Hillary’s argument to stay in basically just to see if something happens to Obama. wouldn’t the dems pick her ANYWAY if something so terrible happened between now and the convention?

    i mean, Mitt “Chucklehead” Romney dropped out, but if McCain imploded between now and the convention, the party would probably go to Romney, because he was the strongest 2nd place, right?

    so why can’t Hillary drop out now, save all that time, effort, money, and humiliation (when she loses the last few contests), but with the caveat that she’s ready if something happens to Obama? i mean, the Dems know that already.

    its not like if she drops out, she disappears off the face of the Earth, although that would be great.

  25. 25.

    Blue Buddha

    May 7, 2008 at 5:51 pm

    Genine Says:

    It’s a product of identity politics, I think. Some people just really want a woman president so badly. Don’t get me wrong, it would be very nice. But I am not going to support a person just because of their gender and race.

    Yeah, my thoughts were, “It would be nice to see a woman president, but Hillary ain’t it.” I heard quite a few Hillary supporters say that about the only reason why they’re voting for her is because she’s a woman. Oh really? What’s wrong with Condoleza Rice? or Lynne Chenney? Aren’t they women too? For that matter, how come you didn’t support Elizabeth Dole when she was trying for a GOP nominee spot in 2000?

  26. 26.

    DFD

    May 7, 2008 at 5:53 pm

    eh…maybe this is better
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvfUNsIexCk

  27. 27.

    Zifnab

    May 7, 2008 at 5:57 pm

    You know how this usually ends in the movies, right?

    Bullet time slow motion gun fight FTW!
    *grabs popcorn and comfy chair*

  28. 28.

    Wilfred

    May 7, 2008 at 5:57 pm

    Oh really? What’s wrong with Condoleza Rice? or Lynne Chenney? Aren’t they women too?

    Long, long theatrical pause. Punch lines forming in the distance.

  29. 29.

    Z

    May 7, 2008 at 5:58 pm

    It is identity politics, which miffs me off too. They don’t seem to get that it can’t be just ANY woman. It has to be THE best candidate. For crying out loud, would they support Phyllis Schlafly or Beverly LeHay for president? I mean I would love it if we had a woman president, too. Only, I want the kind of woman president that even the nastiest sexists have to grudgingly admit was excellent!

  30. 30.

    A Different JC

    May 7, 2008 at 6:02 pm

    calipygian Says:
    >They’re thinking about drinking the KoolAid,
    >the Jim Jones kind.
    Kool Aide gets such a bad rap. Jim actually made everyone drink Grape Flavor Aide.

    As far as I know, the idiom “drink the kool aid” is a direct reference to the Jim Jones Jonestown cultists. And until calipygian mentioned this, I never knew it was a false fact. I guess “drink the Flavor Aide” doesn’t sound as good.

  31. 31.

    BFR

    May 7, 2008 at 6:03 pm

    You thinking Killing Zoe kind of bloodshed, John?

    That didn’t end well for the lead hostage taker as I recall. Something about them not giving a shit about the hostages.

  32. 32.

    El Doh

    May 7, 2008 at 6:04 pm

    The identity politics are strong in some quarters.

    The rationalizations are rather fantastic in some quarters though — some insist they will never vote for Obama because of how he smearer “their candidate”.

    One even went so far as to say it was because of the ridicule she suffered over the gas tax pander — figure the logic of THAT one out if you can!

    Others have sworn to donate to and support McCain in the GE. Sure, that many be petty and vindictive, but it’s not like anything that matters is at stake.

    What?

    Oh.

  33. 33.

    calipygian

    May 7, 2008 at 6:07 pm

    You thinking Killing Zoe kind of bloodshed, John?

    I’m thinking Natural Born Killers level bloodshed. With Matt Drudge playing the Wayne Gale role, one would hope.

  34. 34.

    Barbara

    May 7, 2008 at 6:12 pm

    Genine et al. have it. My mother is positively wedded to the idea of the first female president. I remember her being almost giddy about Geraldien Ferraro’s nomination, which I thought was a complete travesty at the time.

    It’s almost like she will be personally validated for her career and personal sacrifices if a woman becomes president. So no, she won’t vote for ANY woman, but she would probably vote for any bona fide Democratic female candidate, and Hillary Clinton qualifies for that.

    Meanwhile, it just irks me that Clinton has gotten the loyalty of people like my mom because I don’t think she’s done much to deserve it. I just don’t talk about it with my mother, it’s too emotional for her.

  35. 35.

    demimondian

    May 7, 2008 at 6:12 pm

    A better analogy might be Huckabee’s last few days. He said the same things about staying in until the bitter end. Despite that, a week later, he quietly folded his tent and let go.

    Once the media decide that the race is over, the challenger quickly stops getting air time. Once he or she stops getting air time, the crowds stop showing up, and once the crowds stop showing up, the campaign really is over, even to the candidate. Give them time. Give them time.

  36. 36.

    Jeff

    May 7, 2008 at 6:15 pm

    Saw this on Wil Wheaton’s site who noted John’s switch:

    Reddit this morning: Hillary Clinton: The Psycho Ex-Girlfriend of the Democratic Party.

    It’s 2:31 AM. The Democratic Party is sleeping peacefully when it hears its phone buzz on the night stand. It rolls over and sees “Hillary” on the caller ID. It pauses briefly, considering pushing “END” and not dealing with this shit tonight. The thought is appealing but the Democratic Party knows that if it doesn’t take this call, another one is only minutes away.

    DEMS: …Hello?

    Hillary: Hey baby.

    DEMS: C’mon Hillary. Enough with this.

    Hillary: Don’t you get it? You NEED me.

    DEMS: No, I don’t. It was fun while it lasted but I’m with Barack now. I made my choice, it’s done.

    Hillary: You can’t really mean that. How can you say that after all the good times we had?

    DEMS: To be honest, I started hanging out with you because Bill’s pretty awesome.

    Hillary: But I’m just like Bill!

    DEMS: No, you’re not. Bill is charismatic, inspiring, and gets me really good weed.

    Hillary: Fuck you. You’re elitist!

    DEMS: I’m going back to sleep.

  37. 37.

    nightjar

    May 7, 2008 at 6:17 pm

    More like Inside Job, the Clinton’s are slippery as greased pigs.

  38. 38.

    Krista

    May 7, 2008 at 6:18 pm

    Some people just really want a woman president so badly. Don’t get me wrong, it would be very nice. But I am not going to support a person just because of their gender and race.

    Precisely. It’s sexism, plain and simple. We feminists cannot have it both ways. If we decry people voting against Clinton, solely because of her gender, we should equally decry those who are voting for her, solely because of her gender.

    Ideally, the first female President will be the individual who has run the best campaign and captured the most votes, and who just happens to be female.

    I’m really hoping that someday, our society can get to that point where a presidential candidate’s race and gender will be non-issues. And for that, I do think we owe both Clinton and Obama a large debt of gratitude.

    She is the first female who has made it this far in the race and he is the first non-Caucasian to do so. The seal has been broken, so to speak. The next woman or non-Caucasian to run for President likely won’t find their gender and/or race to be as much of an issue, because those two have already paved the way. And the people after that will find it even less of an issue, and so on and so forth.

    Here’s hoping, anyway.

  39. 39.

    merrinc

    May 7, 2008 at 6:18 pm

    It’s almost like she will be personally validated for her career and personal sacrifices if a woman becomes president.

    She’s not alone.

  40. 40.

    A Different JC

    May 7, 2008 at 6:19 pm

    Hey John, Tim, Michael, et al.

    Howzibout opening a thread to discuss the now very real issue of VP (and even cabinet) choices for Obaama? That’s fun and upbeat and doesn’t involve as many psycho girlfriends or hostage taking pre-op transvestites.

    Thanks

  41. 41.

    Xenos

    May 7, 2008 at 6:27 pm

    The first Federalist President was Washington; the first Democratic one was Jefferson; the first Republican one was Lincoln; the first disabled president was FDR; the first Catholic was JFK. Being the first is a revolutionary moment, and requires someone with revolutionary charisma. Obama has it and Clinton does not. This will hold true for the first Jewish President, the first openly atheist president, the first openly gay president.

    (let’s ignore the first Quaker presidents, shall we?)

    And keep in mind that black men were guaranteed a vote decades before women were – having a black president is, in our society, a less revolutionary moment than the first female.

    So it won’t be Clinton. I would have loved to have it be Mikulski, but there is no point in crying about it. Most assuredly, the first women president is alive today, and we probably know her name already.

  42. 42.

    MNPundit

    May 7, 2008 at 6:27 pm

    Whoa, sounds like the Kill Point there John.

  43. 43.

    Dennis - SGMM

    May 7, 2008 at 6:32 pm

    Toast:

    Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), one of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton’s (D-N.Y.) most prominent Senate supporters, said Wednesday that she will ask the former first lady to detail her plans for the rest of the Democratic primary.

    “I, as you know, have great fondness and great respect for Sen. Clinton and I’m very loyal to her,” Feinstein said. “Having said that, I’d like to talk with her and [get] her view on the rest of the race and what the strategy is.”

    Clinton, who eked out a win in Indiana Tuesday night but lost big to front-runner Sen. Barack Obama (Ill.) in North Carolina, has not responded to Feinstein’s phone call, the California senator said.

    “I think the race is reaching the point now where there are negative dividends from it, in terms of strife within the party,” Feinstein said. “I think we need to prevent that as much as we can.”

  44. 44.

    Krista

    May 7, 2008 at 6:33 pm

    the first openly atheist president, the first openly gay president.

    I hope I do get to see that happen in my lifetime. I really do.

  45. 45.

    The Grand Panjandrum

    May 7, 2008 at 6:33 pm

    It’s a product of identity politics, I think. Some people just really want a woman president so badly. Don’t get me wrong, it would be very nice. But I am not going to support a person just because of their gender and race. I was talking with a co-worker today who is older and a Clinton supporter and she was nearly in tears saying she’s been waiting a long time to see a woman president and how much it meant to her. That’s when I had an epiphany that maybe I was kinda being a bitch about Hillary, though I still think its wrong.

    I don’t blame older African-Americans and older women for voting based on race or gender. I remember hearing a radio interview of an 90+year old Black woman who was somewhat torn because she absolutely adored HRC, but decided to vote for Obama because she was afraid she wouldn’t live long enough to vote in 2012. What made her story so poignant was that the first time she vote she had to pay the Poll Tax. So, again, I fully understand why an older person might vote based on gender or race.

  46. 46.

    A Different JC

    May 7, 2008 at 6:34 pm

    Xenos Says: The first Federalist President was Washington; the first Democratic one was Jefferson; the first Republican one was Lincoln; the first disabled president was FDR; the first Catholic was JFK.

    Good list. I’d like to add that “firsts” applies also to nominees and to vice presidents. So first Catholic goes to Al Smith (Democrat 1928), first woman to Ferraro (Dem 1984), first non-Christian to Lieberman (Dem 2000), first non-White (Dem 2008).

    Note the pattern of who nominated these firsts. Yay, Democrats.

    Also, I would add Dukakis to the list (first Greek? first non-British Isles?) but I haven’t checked the record on the ethnic variation.

  47. 47.

    Dreggas

    May 7, 2008 at 6:41 pm

    WRT sexism and electing a woman. Isn’t that woman from Georgia, McKinney running as a green? If these people supporting Clinton were all about voting for someone based on gender then they all need to switch to the green party and vote for Cynthia. Then you get the first woman who is also black as president.

  48. 48.

    jnfr

    May 7, 2008 at 6:47 pm

    I trust the process, even though you don’t, John. Democrats don’t fall in line easily. Josh Marshall has a good report on the process.

  49. 49.

    empty

    May 7, 2008 at 6:56 pm

    flyerhawk Says:

    Genine,

    If you want to see crazed I suggest you saunter on over to TalkLeft or Corrente.

    So I sauntered over to TalkLeft and Corrente. And on neither of those blogs are people fantasizing of killing the candidate they do not like. Compared to TalkLeft and Corrente Balloon Juice and many of its residents are significantly more “crazed.” And this when their favorite is winning.

  50. 50.

    Who

    May 7, 2008 at 7:08 pm

    The woman is obsessed, no doubt about it. And in some circles, obsession is seen as a kind of insanity.

  51. 51.

    John Cole

    May 7, 2008 at 7:23 pm

    And on neither of those blogs are people fantasizing of killing the candidate they do not like. Compared to TalkLeft and Corrente Balloon Juice and many of its residents are significantly more “crazed.”

    Who the fuck is talking about killing Hillary? It is a metaphor, you retard.

    Cripes. Hillary supporters really are uneducated loons.

  52. 52.

    Hypatia

    May 7, 2008 at 7:27 pm

    Precisely. It’s sexism, plain and simple. We feminists cannot have it both ways. If we decry people voting against Clinton, solely because of her gender, we should equally decry those who are voting for her, solely because of her gender.

    You’re comparing apples and oranges. We decry those who would vote against a qualified female candidate on the basis of her sex. There’s nothing wrong with voting for her because she’s a good candidate, and, yes, because she is a woman and they’d kinda like to see a female president before they breathe their last. And there’s no reason to be apologetic about it.

    For that matter, how come you didn’t support Elizabeth Dole when she was trying for a GOP nominee spot in 2000?

    Dole actually started out with a lot of goodwill in surprising quarters, but she was a terrible candidate. There was no there there, and everybody could see it.

    Reddit this morning: Hillary Clinton: The Psycho Ex-Girlfriend of the Democratic Party.

    And the hits just keep on coming……

  53. 53.

    empty

    May 7, 2008 at 7:40 pm

    John Cole Says:

    Who the fuck is talking about killing Hillary? It is a metaphor, you retard.

    Cripes. Hillary supporters really are uneducated loons.

    Hey asshole

    she knows they are armed to the teeth, wearing their kevlar vests, weapons sighted, aimed, and with the safeties off.

    that’s called fantasizing. And, not everyone who sees your fucked up fantasies as sick is a Hillary supporter. If they were she would be winning.

  54. 54.

    Tlaloc

    May 7, 2008 at 7:43 pm

    “But a lot of people are emotional about this process and somehow think that if she got it, they got it, too.”

    Sure. But some people also just think Obama’s a bad candidate for one reason or another.

  55. 55.

    John Cole

    May 7, 2008 at 7:44 pm

    that’s called fantasizing.

    Yes, I am actually fantasizing of superdelegates like Dianne Feinstein “armed to the teeth, wearing their kevlar vests, weapons sighted, aimed, and with the safeties off.”

    I restate- you are a fucking retard. I suppose you are also asserting that I think Hillary is actually going to kill hostages somewhere.

  56. 56.

    empty

    May 7, 2008 at 7:48 pm

    John Cole Says:

    I restate- you are a fucking retard.

    And you are a sick fuck. Now that we have all that cleared up.

  57. 57.

    Hypatia

    May 7, 2008 at 7:51 pm

    Yes, I am actually fantasizing of superdelegates like Dianne Feinstein “armed to the teeth, wearing their kevlar vests, weapons sighted, aimed, and with the safeties off.”

    No, of course not, and I know you don’t mean it. But it’s like that Olbermann remark about the superdelegate taking her into a room and only one coming out. It would just be really pleasant if we could avoid these ‘metaphors’ implying physical violence. They aren’t the only ones related to Clinton I can think of, and they are creepy.

  58. 58.

    Genine

    May 7, 2008 at 7:55 pm

    Hypatia Says:

    Precisely. It’s sexism, plain and simple. We feminists cannot have it both ways. If we decry people voting against Clinton, solely because of her gender, we should equally decry those who are voting for her, solely because of her gender.

    You’re comparing apples and oranges. We decry those who would vote against a qualified female candidate on the basis of her sex. There’s nothing wrong with voting for her because she’s a good candidate, and, yes, because she is a woman and they’d kinda like to see a female president before they breathe their last. And there’s no reason to be apologetic about it.

    Krista is right, it IS sexist. And maybe you call it comparing apples and oranges because of the double-standard at play.

    If a man said he’d vote for someone because he’s a good candidate and male, you’d call him a sexist and a misogynist.

    Giving a promotion to, voting for, or giving something to someone because of gender IS sexist. Applying one standard to one sex and a different standard to another is sexist.

    For me, the rules are simple: if you don’t want it done to you, don’t do it to anybody else.

    Krista still calls herself a feminist, which is great. I’ve been SO disgusted with the behavior on some blogs and womens’ groups I’ve been involved in the last few months that I don’t call myself that anymore. There are still a number of feminists I admire and support, but I do not share that label anymore.

  59. 59.

    Krista

    May 7, 2008 at 7:57 pm

    Precisely. It’s sexism, plain and simple. We feminists cannot have it both ways. If we decry people voting against Clinton, solely because of her gender, we should equally decry those who are voting for her, solely because of her gender.

    You’re comparing apples and oranges. We decry those who would vote against a qualified female candidate on the basis of her sex. There’s nothing wrong with voting for her because she’s a good candidate, and, yes, because she is a woman and they’d kinda like to see a female president before they breathe their last. And there’s no reason to be apologetic about it.

    And you’re misreading what I wrote. I stated quite clearly that those who would vote FOR Hillary SOLELY on the basis of her gender are just as bad as those who would vote AGAINST her SOLELY on the basis of her gender.

    I do not think that the majority of Hillary supporters fall into that former category, but there are some who do. And it’s wrong.

    I do agree with you that there is absolutely nothing wrong with finding her an appealing candidate, and her gender being a part of that appeal. That’s totally fair. I also think it would be seriously awesome (and long past due) for your country to have a female president. But gender should not be the only reason why anybody votes for or against any candidate.

    Now that I think about this further, it’s a bit of an interesting quandary, though. If we claim that there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking gender/race/whatever into account as a factor when supporting someone, then are we possibly being hypocritical when we speak out against an individual who takes gender/race/whatever into account as a factor when not supporting someone? For example, if part of the reason I vote for Candidate X is that Candidate X is an atheist, then do I really have a leg to stand on if my neighbour votes against Candidate X, with part of his reason being that the candidate is an atheist?

    Something to think about as I drink my beer. :)

  60. 60.

    nightjar

    May 7, 2008 at 7:58 pm

    No, of course not, and I know you don’t mean it. But it’s like that Olbermann remark about the superdelegate taking her into a room and only one coming out. It would just be really pleasant if we could avoid these ‘metaphors’ implying physical violence. They aren’t the only ones related to Clinton I can think of, and they are creepy

    Sometimes metaphors with inferred violence go too far. This one clearly does not, imo. But there are numnuts like empty who will always misread to suit their own bias which is why I try and stay away from using them altogether.

  61. 61.

    nightjar

    May 7, 2008 at 8:01 pm

    And you’re misreading what I wrote. I stated quite clearly that those who would vote FOR Hillary SOLELY on the basis of her gender are just as bad as those who would vote AGAINST her SOLELY on the basis of her gende

    My VP choice Krista. To hell with the Constitution.

  62. 62.

    Krista

    May 7, 2008 at 8:01 pm

    Genine said it much more succinctly than I did. Thank you.

  63. 63.

    Genine

    May 7, 2008 at 8:03 pm

    Hypatia Says:

    Yes, I am actually fantasizing of superdelegates like Dianne Feinstein “armed to the teeth, wearing their kevlar vests, weapons sighted, aimed, and with the safeties off.”

    No, of course not, and I know you don’t mean it. But it’s like that Olbermann remark about the superdelegate taking her into a room and only one coming out. It would just be really pleasant if we could avoid these ‘metaphors’ implying physical violence. They aren’t the only ones related to Clinton I can think of, and they are creepy.

    It’s only creepy if you’re stupid.

  64. 64.

    Krista

    May 7, 2008 at 8:03 pm

    If a man said he’d vote for someone because he’s a good candidate and male, you’d call him a sexist and a misogynist.

    There you go. That’s what I was trying to say with my rambling last paragraph.

  65. 65.

    Krista

    May 7, 2008 at 8:05 pm

    My VP choice Krista. To hell with the Constitution.

    Oh no, darling. Too many scandalous deeds in my past for me to ever get into politics. ;)

  66. 66.

    Genine

    May 7, 2008 at 8:08 pm

    Krista Says:

    Genine said it much more succinctly than I did. Thank you.

    You’re welcome. But it’s only because I’ve been making the same arguments over and over for months. Which might make one say they’re idiots. But I’m the one that chooses to argue with them, so what does that make me? :)

  67. 67.

    Tlaloc

    May 7, 2008 at 8:12 pm

    For argument’s sake you could say that it is not sexist to vote for a woman, any woman, to be the first president for the reason that you are trying to break through the wall. To make the concept acceptable, at which point it behooves you to vote for the best candidate, regardless of sex.

  68. 68.

    Tlaloc

    May 7, 2008 at 8:13 pm

    whoops, should say “first *female* president”

  69. 69.

    Genine

    May 7, 2008 at 8:20 pm

    Tlaloc Says:

    For argument’s sake you could say that it is not sexist to vote for a woman, any woman, to be the first president for the reason that you are trying to break through the wall. To make the concept acceptable, at which point it behooves you to vote for the best candidate, regardless of sex.

    By definition, that is still sexism.

  70. 70.

    Ted

    May 7, 2008 at 8:40 pm

    that’s called fantasizing. And, not everyone who sees your fucked up fantasies as sick is a Hillary supporter.

    No metaphors, people! They scare the Hillbots.

    Are you really so retarded that you think using a metaphor to explain the nature of a situation equates to wanting that metaphor to actually BE that situation? Have you had high school freshman English yet?

  71. 71.

    Ted

    May 7, 2008 at 8:44 pm

    It would just be really pleasant if we could avoid these ‘metaphors’ implying physical violence.

    Oh good grief. Then I guess we need to sanitize your local library. We wouldn’t want any creative writing that uses interesting metaphors to scare you either.

    Look, Cole’s metaphor involved HILLARY doing the violence (you know, in the metaphorical sense) to her party. Not anyone doing violence to Hillary.

    And I’m sorry, it’s an excellent metaphor for what Hillary is doing to the Democratic party.

  72. 72.

    Delia

    May 7, 2008 at 9:14 pm

    I don’t think John should worry so much. I just watched Lawrence O’Donnell on Dan Abrams’ teevee show, the one that comes on right after Olbermann. His take is that it would be very bad for her to drop out right because it would leave all her supporters bitter. (See TalkLeft, No Quarter, etc.) He says a number of her supporters among the supers (like Feinstein, Schumer, etc.) are advising her; that she will/must tone down her campaign, cut out the nasty attacks on Obama. She should win in W. Virginia & Kentucky, so she should be able to go out on a high note, and be in a position to call for party unity with Obama as the nominee.

    And, um, everybody will live happily ever after.

  73. 73.

    empty

    May 7, 2008 at 9:21 pm

    Ted Says:

    It would just be really pleasant if we could avoid these ‘metaphors’ implying physical violence.

    Oh good grief. Then I guess we need to sanitize your local library. We wouldn’t want any creative writing that uses interesting metaphors to scare you either.

    Well, maybe many of the residents here are not crazed. It seems some like Ted are simply fatuous morons. My bad.

  74. 74.

    Tlaloc

    May 7, 2008 at 9:22 pm

    “And I’m sorry, it’s an excellent metaphor for what Hillary is doing to the Democratic party.”

    Care to explain how running for a nomination, and even refusing to drop out when your chances are slim, is really analogous to walking into a bank with guns and taking hostages? To my eye it doesn’t seem a really apt comparison.

    It’d be a better comparison if Hillary had threatened the Dem party, say with a list of demands they had to fill or she’d cause them harm. That’d be much more like a hostage situation, since there’d be, you know, a hostage.

  75. 75.

    John Cole

    May 7, 2008 at 9:24 pm

    It’d be a better comparison if Hillary had threatened the Dem party, say with a list of demands they had to fill or she’d cause them harm

    Michigan and Florida.

    And who knows what else is going on.

  76. 76.

    Tlaloc

    May 7, 2008 at 9:25 pm

    Shorter me: Hillary’s campaign is exactly like a hostage crisis, except there’s no hostage and not much of a crisis.

  77. 77.

    Tlaloc

    May 7, 2008 at 9:27 pm

    “Michigan and Florida.”

    And? What exactly is the threat?

  78. 78.

    Jon H

    May 7, 2008 at 9:28 pm

    Hillary’s only continuing her effort because Bill’s always dreamed of being able to campaign in KY.

  79. 79.

    Ted

    May 7, 2008 at 9:28 pm

    Well, maybe many of the residents here are not crazed. It seems some like Ted are simply fatuous morons. My bad.

    I’ve been assaulted!

    Oh dear, now I’ve done it. I’ve used a violent metaphor.

  80. 80.

    John Cole

    May 7, 2008 at 9:30 pm

    You know what tlaloc, the frustration is really with the never ending bullshit from her campaign. It would be one thing if she just wanted to gracefuly ride off into the sunset. she doesn’t.

    This morning and all day we are treated to the fight goes on, changed rules, bullshit about Michigan and Florida, rejiggered delegate totals (used to be 2025, now who knows what it is- I think 2200 according to them).

    Just stop. Stop doing damage to the party. You can’t win. Just go away.

    And if some miracle does happen and Obama does get found running guns and korans with little boys and Al Qaeda, we will know where to find you. You don’t need to stay in the race launching broadsides at Obama for the next month until you attempt a coup at the rules committee.

    The hostage metaphor is accurate, and she is the one who can stop this.

  81. 81.

    Ted

    May 7, 2008 at 9:32 pm

    That’d be much more like a hostage situation, since there’d be, you know, a hostage.

    His name is Obama. And Hillary’s “threat” is that if she goes down, she taking him with her.

  82. 82.

    empty

    May 7, 2008 at 9:33 pm

    Tlaloc Says:

    Shorter me: Hillary’s campaign is exactly like a hostage crisis, except there’s no hostage and not much of a crisis.

    Now now Tlaloc. You are trying to be rational. That is strictly verboten here when the primaries are the topic.

  83. 83.

    Genine

    May 7, 2008 at 9:34 pm

    Well, maybe many of the residents here are not crazed. It seems some like Ted are simply fatuous morons. My bad.

    Ted, wasn’t the one making stupid arguments.

  84. 84.

    Tlaloc

    May 7, 2008 at 9:37 pm

    “You know what tlaloc, the frustration is really with the never ending bullshit from her campaign.”

    I’ve gotten that vibe from you. And I’ve previously tried to explain why some of that “bullshit” seems perfectly reasonable to others. That’s usually when people start getting abusive.

    “It would be one thing if she just wanted to gracefuly ride off into the sunset. she doesn’t.”

    That’s her choice. It’s her campaign, not yours. She can run it anyway she likes, and you can choose whether or not to vote for her. Why should anyone but Hillary have the final say in if she ends her campaign early?

    “Just stop. Stop doing damage to the party. You can’t win. Just go away.”

    Again, her choice, not yours. I suspect she really can’t win now, but that’s not to say she has to withdraw unless she wants to. Do you have evidence that her staying in is harming the party? You claim it a lot but I’ve yet to see anything that supports the claim.

    “The hostage metaphor is accurate, and she is the one who can stop this.”

    So you claim, and yet when I ask you to explain it all you say is “michigan and florida.” Again, what is the threat? Who is the hostage?

  85. 85.

    Tlaloc

    May 7, 2008 at 9:39 pm

    “His name is Obama. And Hillary’s “threat” is that if she goes down, she taking him with her.”

    Except she has no power to do that.

  86. 86.

    Jon H

    May 7, 2008 at 9:41 pm

    John wrote: “This morning and all day we are treated to the fight goes on, changed rules, bullshit about Michigan and Florida, rejiggered delegate totals (used to be 2025, now who knows what it is- I think 2200 according to them).”

    It’s basically just a wimpy sore loser yelling “Best 5 out of 9!” after getting badly beaten 3 times in a row.

    (5 out of 9 probably isn’t realistic, but you get the point.)

    Come to think of it, I think George W. Bush has been described as pulling this sort of thing when he competes.

  87. 87.

    empty

    May 7, 2008 at 9:41 pm

    Genine Says:

    Well, maybe many of the residents here are not crazed. It seems some like Ted are simply fatuous morons. My bad.

    Ted, wasn’t the one making stupid arguments.

    Well, seeing as how John is kinda sweet on you I didn’t want to get him further “crazed.” But if you wish to join Ted don’t let me hold you back.

  88. 88.

    John Cole

    May 7, 2008 at 9:42 pm

    “Michigan and Florida.”

    And? What exactly is the threat?

    Michigan and Florida are not going to be seated until she is out of the race or Obama has the nomination. As it should be. They should have no impact on the race. Claiming she is staying in to resolve that situation while the major impediment to resolving that situation is her still being in the race is, well, Clintonian bullshit.

    Enough.

  89. 89.

    Tlaloc

    May 7, 2008 at 9:48 pm

    “Michigan and Florida are not going to be seated until she is out of the race or Obama has the nomination. As it should be. They should have no impact on the race. Claiming she is staying in to resolve that situation while the major impediment to resolving that situation is her still being in the race is, well, Clintonian bullshit.”

    So Hillary is holding the party hostage by threatening to help the voters of Florida and Michigan do something they want to do anyway (i.e. impact the nomination). Quite the nefarious scheme, that.

  90. 90.

    John Cole

    May 7, 2008 at 9:51 pm

    So Hillary is holding the party hostage by threatening to help the voters of Florida and Michigan do something they want to do anyway (i.e. impact the nomination). Quite the nefarious scheme, that.

    You are being intentionally obtuse.

  91. 91.

    nightjar

    May 7, 2008 at 9:51 pm

    Well, seeing as how John is kinda sweet on you I didn’t want to get him further “crazed.” But if you wish to join Ted don’t let me hold you back.

    You are an asshole empty. GFY.

  92. 92.

    Genine

    May 7, 2008 at 9:55 pm

    But if you wish to join Ted don’t let me hold you back.

    You won’t hold me back from not being a moron? Thanks for the support. I’ll do the same for you if you ever make that decision.

  93. 93.

    Svensker

    May 7, 2008 at 9:57 pm

    Also, I would add Dukakis to the list (first Greek? first non-British Isles?) but I haven’t checked the record on the ethnic variation.

    Nope. Spiro Agnew was the first Greek vp. All my husband’s elderly Greek relatives, who had been staunch Democrats for 50 years, voted for Nixon because of Agnew.

  94. 94.

    Hypatia

    May 7, 2008 at 9:59 pm

    Which might make one say they’re idiots. But I’m the one that chooses to argue with them, so what does that make me?

    Have no fear, Genine. You can always fall back on your nice rack.

  95. 95.

    Tlaloc

    May 7, 2008 at 10:00 pm

    “You are being intentionally obtuse.”

    No, I’m being _intentionally_ sarcastic because what you claim as a horrible hostage situation seems to be nothing of the kind.

    Here, it’s simple, a hostage situation has four elements:
    1) the criminal(s)
    2) the hostage(s)
    3) the threat, and
    4) the demand

    1 does 3 to 2 unless 4.

    Now you want to claim
    1) Hillary
    2) Dem party
    3) uh… something about Michigan and Florida delegates
    4) Presumably that they make Hilary the nominee

    In other words you imagine Hillary is saying “you have to make me the nominee or I’ll seat these delegates that I only want because they help me be the nominee.” Wait, what?

  96. 96.

    Tlaloc

    May 7, 2008 at 10:03 pm

    Not only that but seating the delegates does no actual harm to the party (except in a long term control of the local branches sense). Kind of makes it a weak threat, huh?

    So Hillary is apparently saying “you have to make me the nominee or I’ll force the party to help itself win in November!”

    What a bitch!

  97. 97.

    Soylent Green

    May 7, 2008 at 10:06 pm

    This is all much ado about nothing.
    Michigan and Florida are not going to be seated until she is out of the race or Obama has the nomination. As it should be. They should have no impact on the race. Claiming she is staying in to resolve that situation while the major impediment to resolving that situation is her still being in the race is, well, Clintonian bullshit.

    This is much ado about nothing.

    Hillary has to keep making the usual incoherent noises to her fans to keep their money flowing in. For one thing she wants her loans repaid. That awkward give-till-it-hurts plea in the middle of her Indiana victory speech is proof. She will keep making all the same idiotic pronouncements about how she is never giving up right up to the moment, most likely on May 20, that she gives up, in Kentucky, in front of her cheering crowd.

    She isn’t holding the party hostage; its leaders are in on the act and playing along for appearance’s sake. It’s better for Obama that she waits till the 20th; this will spare him the embarrassment of losing to her in WV and KY after her withdrawal. I won’t be surprised if we learn they are stage-managing these final weeks together.

  98. 98.

    Genine

    May 7, 2008 at 10:15 pm

    Hypatia Says:

    Which might make one say they’re idiots. But I’m the one that chooses to argue with them, so what does that make me?

    Have no fear, Genine. You can always fall back on your nice rack.

    And my brain, and my ability to use it, too! :)

    Try harder next time.

    Bye, kids!

  99. 99.

    mrmobi

    May 7, 2008 at 10:16 pm

    This is much ado about nothing.

    Hillary has to keep making the usual incoherent noises to her fans to keep their money flowing in. For one thing she wants her loans repaid. That awkward give-till-it-hurts plea in the middle of her Indiana victory speech is proof. She will keep making all the same idiotic pronouncements about how she is never giving up right up to the moment, most likely on May 20, that she gives up, in Kentucky, in front of her cheering crowd.

    Soylent Green, can I say this? You are people. That is a spot-on analysis. I wish everyone in the Democratic Party would just untwist their knickers and take a breath. Hillary has bills to pay. Let her finish her run so she can go out on a high note, will ya?

    The DNC is not going to allow the MI and FL results to change the dynamics of the race. Those elections were invalid, and everyone with active brain cells knows it.

    We just have to wait a few more days and everyone will start making nice.

  100. 100.

    John Cole

    May 7, 2008 at 10:17 pm

    Tlaloc- you are spending an awful lot of time telling me you think it is a shitty metaphor.

  101. 101.

    empty

    May 7, 2008 at 10:19 pm

    Genine Says:

    But if you wish to join Ted don’t let me hold you back.

    You won’t hold me back from not being a moron?

    So Genine, tell me which argument was it that I was making that you found stupid? Looking back on my comments I don’t really see an argument. I see statements and assertions. But maybe I missed something. Tlaloc is the one presenting arguments. And doing quite well.

  102. 102.

    Desmond

    May 7, 2008 at 10:20 pm

    She isn’t holding the party hostage; its leaders are in on the act and playing along for appearance’s sake. It’s better for Obama that she waits till the 20th; this will spare him the embarrassment of losing to her in WV and KY after her withdrawal. I won’t be surprised if we learn they are stage-managing these final weeks together.

    This could be true, but since it’s Clinton, I assume the worst.

  103. 103.

    John Cole

    May 7, 2008 at 10:25 pm

    This could be true, but since it’s Clinton, I assume the worst.

    Exactly, and she could start to prove me wrong but not having aides go out and make the case for their continued candidacy in explicitly racial terms. She could also stop her campaign from going out and flat out making shit up about the number of delegates required to win the nomination.

    Little stuff, you know.

  104. 104.

    Tlaloc

    May 7, 2008 at 10:32 pm

    “Tlaloc- you are spending an awful lot of time telling me you think it is a shitty metaphor.”

    Sure, but it’s my time to spend right? I’m not holding you hostage here. (Just trying to link this back to the conversation at hand)

    The point is that you take a fairly everyday situation and color it as if Hillary were committing some atrocity. Like filming someone the shutter speed screwed up so anything, no matter how trivial seems sinister.

  105. 105.

    Tlaloc

    May 7, 2008 at 10:35 pm

    “This could be true, but since it’s Clinton, I assume the worst.”

    You are aware that that statement invalidates anything you might have to say about the campaign, right? I mean you just admitted to being horrendously biased, and thus unfit to make judgments about the matter.

  106. 106.

    Desmond

    May 7, 2008 at 10:35 pm

    Yeah, if she’s only staying in it to spare Obama some embarassment, it doesn’t make sense for her to still have her campaign people out spreading bullshit and stirring the racial pot yet again. A graceful exit for Clinton would mean no more attacking Obama, and no more bullshit. Just talk about the issues, or attack McCain, or attack Bush, or whatever.

    Frankly, if she had done that back in January and February, she might have had a chance at winning this thing.

  107. 107.

    Desmond

    May 7, 2008 at 10:41 pm

    You are aware that that statement invalidates anything you might have to say about the campaign, right?

    ‘Fraid not.

    I mean you just admitted to being horrendously biased, and thus unfit to make judgments about the matter.

    Nope, I just admitted to being appropriately cynical about Hillary Clinton’s motives. Because if she really cared about the good of the party and the good of the country, and not just her own ambition and desire to be president, she would have dropped out weeks ago. It’s not bias; it’s a reasoned conclusion based on the evidence.

  108. 108.

    Genine

    May 7, 2008 at 10:44 pm

    So Genine, tell me which argument was it that I was making that you found stupid? Looking back on my comments I don’t really see an argument. I see statements and assertions. But maybe I missed something. Tlaloc is the one presenting arguments. And doing quite well.

    I am always willing to admit when I make a mistake. In the heat of the moment, I used the wrong word.

    You are correct. So let me rephrase:

    Ted is not the one making stupid ASSERTIONS.

    You wouldn’t begrudge me my misstatement, would you? I assume you don’t begrudge Hillary for her misstatement about being under sniper fire in Bosnia. Why my mistake is just like hers!

    Thanks, you’re a pal!

  109. 109.

    nightjar

    May 7, 2008 at 10:48 pm

    You are aware that that statement invalidates anything you might have to say about the campaign, right? I mean you just admitted to being horrendously biased, and thus unfit to make judgments about the matter

    Oh Jesus, this is the kind of twisted logic HC and her supporters have turned into an art form. Her campaign after the SC primary, makes a concious tactical decision to treat Obama like a GOP foe in the GE. EVerything but the kitchen sink and then some, all in an effort to drag Obama into a political gutter brawl the Clinton’s are famous for, against
    Repubs. Then when Obama fights back and his supporters call them on it, they point at how they are Clinton haters. It’s so tired as to be pathetic and you know what, the public gets it. All the exit polls say overwhelmingly that Clinton has unfairly attacked Obama. Please put a lid on this drivel tlalac.

  110. 110.

    Dan

    May 7, 2008 at 10:51 pm

    How’s this for an example?

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/185786.php

  111. 111.

    Tlaloc

    May 7, 2008 at 10:54 pm

    “Nope, I just admitted to being appropriately cynical about Hillary Clinton’s motives. Because if she really cared about the good of the party and the good of the country, and not just her own ambition and desire to be president, she would have dropped out weeks ago. It’s not bias; it’s a reasoned conclusion based on the evidence.”

    If you say so. Sounds an awful lot like unreasoned prejudice to me.

    “Oh Jesus, this is the kind of twisted logic HC and her supporters have turned into an art form.”

    So if someone said to you “Man, Obama is the worst fucking guy on the planet” you’d naturally treat them as an impartial judge.

    Or…

    Maybe you’d regard that as ridiculous exaggeration probably made by someone who is biased such that they have an utterly skewed view of reality.

    “Then when Obama fights back and his supporters call them on it, they point at how they are Clinton haters.”

    Since when is “I always expect the worst of Clinton” calling her, or anyone, on anything? It’s simply a statement of unreasoning bias.

  112. 112.

    empty

    May 7, 2008 at 10:56 pm

    Genine Says:

    I assume you don’t begrudge Hillary for her misstatement about being under sniper fire in Bosnia. Why my mistake is just like hers!

    Thanks, you’re a pal!

    Hey, not at all Genine. I thought her Bosnia statement was a stupid piece of self aggrandizing crap. I am glad you accept the equivalence.

  113. 113.

    Genine

    May 7, 2008 at 11:04 pm

    Hey, not at all Genine. I thought her Bosnia statement was a stupid piece of self aggrandizing crap. I am glad you accept the equivalence.

    Wow! Using the wrong word is self-aggrandizement!? Strange… I thought making a bunch of baseless, untrue ASSERTIONS about METAPHORS was self-aggrandizement. My bad.

    I really must go take a shower now.

    “Lay down with pigs, wake up in shit” as they say.

    I’ll leave you to rest comfortably with the rest of your relatives, Empty.

    Good Night!

  114. 114.

    nightjar

    May 7, 2008 at 11:07 pm

    Since when is “I always expect the worst of Clinton” calling her, or anyone, on anything? It’s simply a statement of unreasoning bias.

    No, it’s based on recent experience not in a fucking vacuum. I used to like Hillary and defended her ad nauseum against wingnut attacks. That was before her recent behavior changed my mind. Now I think she’s a a narcissistic uhg.. person. And I’m usually biased against such people.

    So if someone said to you “Man, Obama is the worst fucking guy on the planet” you’d naturally treat them as an impartial judge.

    Or…

    Maybe you’d regard that as ridiculous exaggeration probably made by someone who is biased such that they have an utterly skewed view of reality

    With that logic everything we have ever thought or done is biased. We’re talking about trust and we all get to decide if we have it or not based on our own judgment.

  115. 115.

    empty

    May 7, 2008 at 11:11 pm

    Genine Says:

    I really must go take a shower now.

    Well, if you must, you must.

  116. 116.

    Frank Jacobs

    May 7, 2008 at 11:12 pm

    John Cole Says:

    Tlaloc- you are spending an awful lot of time telling me you think it is a shitty metaphor.

    Hey, I admit, it wasn’t your best effort to date, John, but to your credit it didn’t involve sports or busses.

  117. 117.

    Rick Taylor

    May 7, 2008 at 11:13 pm

    Care to explain how running for a nomination, and even refusing to drop out when your chances are slim, is really analogous to walking into a bank with guns and taking hostages? To my eye it doesn’t seem a really apt comparison.

    It’d be a better comparison if Hillary had threatened the Dem party, say with a list of demands they had to fill or she’d cause them harm. That’d be much more like a hostage situation, since there’d be, you know, a hostage.

    *ahem*

    According to the Huffington Post’s Tom Edsall and a number of others, one of the possibilities in the offing if Hillary Clinton quickly ends her presidential campaign is that the Obama campaign will not only retire the $10 to $15 million in unpaid campaign related expenses the Clinton campaign owes but will also help the Clinton campaign pay back to the Clintons personally the $11.4 million they have loaned to the campaign during the last three months.

  118. 118.

    merrinc

    May 7, 2008 at 11:15 pm

    Exactly, and she could start to prove me wrong but not having aides go out and make the case for their continued candidacy in explicitly racial terms.

    I don’t suppose making them herself is what you had in mind:

    I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on,” she said in an interview with USA TODAY. As evidence, Clinton cited an Associated Press article “that found how Sen. Obama’s support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me.”

  119. 119.

    Rick Taylor

    May 7, 2008 at 11:20 pm

    And at any rate, it’s a weak point; looking at the original article, it doesn’t look like there’s any evidence she asked for anything or Obama offered anything. Meh, I wish hadn’t posted at all now.

  120. 120.

    nightjar

    May 7, 2008 at 11:21 pm

    Rick Taylor Says:

    Ack! Dang, an accidental double post, and someone else already posted the link. hangs head in shame

    Ah that’s nothin’, the other day I TRIPLE posted. I desperately wanted to reach into the innertubes and pull it back.

  121. 121.

    Tlaloc

    May 7, 2008 at 11:29 pm

    “No, it’s based on recent experience not in a fucking vacuum. I used to like Hillary and defended her ad nauseum against wingnut attacks. That was before her recent behavior changed my mind. Now I think she’s a a narcissistic uhg.. person. And I’m usually biased against such people.”

    SO quick question- those wingnuts you used to defend Clinton from, they were extremely biased right? No matter what happened they always portrayed it in the worst light, they ascribed evil motivations to the Clintons despite a lack of any evidence, and they assumed them guilty of crimes with no proof, right?

    Now you apparently spent some time defending her/them from these kinds of attacks, so why are you surprised that when you’re the one making baseless attacks that others do the same to you?

    Oh, right, they aren’t baseless when it’s you doing it. Of course.

    “With that logic everything we have ever thought or done is biased. We’re talking about trust and we all get to decide if we have it or not based on our own judgment.”

    You honestly don’t see the difference between “I don’t feel like I can trust Hillary” and “I always expect the worst from Clinton”?

    The first one is a “well duh” statement. She’s a politician, of course you can’t trust her. You can’t trust Obama or McCain either, it’s a given. The second statement is a function of unreasoning hatred/paranoia.

  122. 122.

    Cain

    May 7, 2008 at 11:47 pm

    It’s a product of identity politics, I think. Some people just really want a woman president so badly. Don’t get me wrong, it would be very nice. But I am not going to support a person just because of their gender and race. I was talking with a co-worker today who is older and a Clinton supporter and she was nearly in tears saying she’s been waiting a long time to see a woman president and how much it meant to her. That’s when I had an epiphany that maybe I was kinda being a bitch about Hillary, though I still think its wrong.

    That makes sense. A lot of women especially the older ones would like to see a woman president as validation and also they want to see one before they pass on to the next life. I’m not sure why they care, everybody knows God is female. It would explain so much.

    And Genine, there’s so much talk about your rack, I’m very interested in seeing your closet. You must be an awesome selection of clothes.

    cain

  123. 123.

    Onihanzo

    May 7, 2008 at 11:47 pm

    Attica! Attica!

  124. 124.

    Onihanzo

    May 7, 2008 at 11:49 pm

    Oh goddamit. That’ll teach me to respond before reading comments.

  125. 125.

    nightjar

    May 7, 2008 at 11:49 pm

    You honestly don’t see the difference between “I don’t feel like I can trust Hillary” and “I always expect the worst from Clinton”

    Expecting the worst and what actually happens are two different things. I no longer trust Clinton to do the best thing for the Dem party. If she surprises me and does the right thing then my opinion of her might change, if she does the right thing for a period of time, I might even start trusting her.

    Now you apparently spent some time defending her/them from these kinds of attacks, so why are you surprised that when you’re the one making baseless attacks that others do the same to you?

    Obviously, I no longer believe many of the attacks on her are baseless and in some cases as I’ve admitted on this blog , the wingnuts were right.

    Bias is a relative thing, One mans bias is another man’s lie
    and vice-versa. So there you have it.

  126. 126.

    Tlaloc

    May 8, 2008 at 12:01 am

    “Obviously, I no longer believe many of the attacks on her are baseless and in some cases as I’ve admitted on this blog , the wingnuts were right.”

    SO we have two possibilities here:
    1) the wingnuts were right, you failed to see the evil made flesh that is Billary until coincidentally your eyes happened to open just at the same time as she ran against a candidate you favor, OR
    2) The wingnuts operated out of prejudice, and in the course of supporting a rival you’ve internalized some of that prejudice such that, like the wingnuts, you are now filtering events through an anti-Clinton prism.

    Occam’s razor time.

    You see I remember the 90s quite well, all the insanity that revolved around the Clintons. And the thing is I see so much of that now resurgent amongst the hardcore Obama supporters.

    I findit ironic, because now I’m in the position of defending Hillary against her own party.

    *And I’m no even a Clinton fan!* I thought Bill’s presidency was mediocre. I expect nothing better from her. She’s nowhere near the list of people I’d like to have on the ticket. Honestly I’m not even sure I’d vote for her in the fall. That said I know it’s vastly less likely I’d vote for Obama. Clinton is simply the best of bad choices as I see it.

    Naturally you disagree, that’s fine, it’s a subjective judgment call based on personal evaluations of what’s important for the office. But all this talk about Hillary being wrong for not dropping out, all this ascribing of racism to every statement no matter how banal, all this *WINGNUT* behavior is bullshit.

    It isn’t any better when it’s the left being the prejudiced assholes.

    Cole talks about Hillary hurting the party and ignores how he’s helping to turn the dems into the same fucking thing he left on the right. That’s what is hurting the party.

    Everyone needs to get a little perspective.

  127. 127.

    nightjar

    May 8, 2008 at 12:17 am

    SO we have two possibilities here:
    1) the wingnuts were right, you failed to see the evil made flesh that is Billary until coincidentally your eyes happened to open just at the same time as she ran against a candidate you favor, OR
    2) The wingnuts operated out of prejudice, and in the course of supporting a rival you’ve internalized some of that prejudice such that, like the wingnuts, you are now filtering events through an anti-Clinton prism.

    False on both possibilities.

    But all this talk about Hillary being wrong for not dropping out, all this ascribing of racism to every statement no matter how banal, all this WINGNUT behavior is bullshit.

    Personally, I’ve never called for her to drop out. It’s her “WINGNUT behavior” as you state, that I object to. It’s just amazing that people like you are in such denial about it. When we see the first GOP ad saying Obama is unqualified to be Commander in Chief while referencing Hillary’s declaration that only she and MCcain are suitable, please take note and explain again to us about our baseless claims of her pathetic campaign tactics undermining Obama for the GE.

  128. 128.

    KRK

    May 8, 2008 at 2:35 am

    Xenos Says:

    And keep in mind that black men were guaranteed a vote decades before women were – having a black president is, in our society, a less revolutionary moment than the first female.

    As a white woman, please allow me to call BULLSHIT on this trope. Black men were still being arrested, beaten, murdered, fired from their jobs, and evicted from their homes for trying to exercise their “guarantee” of a right to vote (and help others achieve the same) when Barack Obama was a toddler in Hawaii and teenager Hillary Clinton was campaigning for Goldwater.

    Clinton didn’t lose because she’s too revolutionary (!!), nor because she was held down by the all-powerful black male patriarchy. She lost because she ran a horrible campaign and more people like the other candidate.

  129. 129.

    DFD

    May 8, 2008 at 2:37 am

    For 2 months the primary campaign has been effectively over. The only reason it has continued to this point is because the media has chosen to make it so. They have continued the narrative. Last night they said that this is the end and so it is. Is that democratic? Is it fair? No but that is the way it is. Hillary supporters, she lasted this long because of the life support provided by MSNBC, CNN, Fox, etc. Last night they pulled the plug. It’s time to face that reality.

  130. 130.

    KRK

    May 8, 2008 at 2:49 am

    Tlaloc Says:

    SO quick question- those wingnuts you used to defend Clinton from, they were extremely biased right?

    Right. And now she’s best friends with those wingnuts. It’s not her former defenders who’ve changed sides, it’s Clinton.

  131. 131.

    Wilfred

    May 8, 2008 at 4:48 am

    According to the Huffington Post’s Tom Edsall and a number of others, one of the possibilities in the offing if Hillary Clinton quickly ends her presidential campaign is that the Obama campaign will not only retire the $10 to $15 million in unpaid campaign related expenses the Clinton campaign owes but will also help the Clinton campaign pay back to the Clintons personally the $11.4 million they have loaned to the campaign during the last three months.

    Didn’t they used to call that blackmail?

  132. 132.

    Ted

    May 8, 2008 at 5:00 am

    You are aware that that statement invalidates anything you might have to say about the campaign, right? I mean you just admitted to being horrendously biased, and thus unfit to make judgments about the matter.

    Huh. Well, would you say you’re “biased” against George Bush? Or do you have objective and logical reasons why you think he sucks?

    I think Bill Clinton’s presidency was a rather good one for the country. I still think he and his wife will do and say absolutely anything for more power.

    Sorry, that’s not biased. Just observant.

  133. 133.

    Ted

    May 8, 2008 at 5:20 am

    Honestly I’m not even sure I’d vote for her in the fall. That said I know it’s vastly less likely I’d vote for Obama. Clinton is simply the best of bad choices as I see it.

    Then you’re not a Democrat, and don’t give a damn about the objectives of the Democratic party. So take your indignant ass to the polls in November, vote for McCain or whatever unknown or write-in candidate, and enjoy the third Bush term. Just don’t ever come around here again bitching about McCain’s policies, judicial picks, Iraq, etc, because Obama will be the nominee, and you won’t have room to complain.

  134. 134.

    Krista

    May 8, 2008 at 6:36 am

    Genine Says:

    But if you wish to join Ted don’t let me hold you back

    .
    You won’t hold me back from not being a moron? Thanks for the support. I’ll do the same for you if you ever make that decision.

    It’s official: I have a total girl-crush on Genine.

  135. 135.

    over_educated

    May 8, 2008 at 7:06 am

    Cole talks about Hillary hurting the party and ignores how he’s helping to turn the dems into the same fucking thing he left on the right. That’s what is hurting the party.

    Yeah…. right… Seriously, put down the Kool-aid. I started this campaign with very positive feelings toward both candidates and I have ended it feeling very positive toward one (Obama) and very negative toward another (Hillary). (Disclosure: My first vote for in a Presidential election was for Bill Clinton, and I thought he had a great presidency). I would have still voted for Hillary had she won, but through gritted teeth.

    The analogy is apt, she is holding th party hostage to her ambition. Every day she stays in the race and continues to broadside him with negative attacks is a loss of time and resources he and the rest of the Democratic party can devote to winning the general. The only logical reason to stay in at this point is to:

    1. Try to weaken Obama in the general so she could mount another bid in 4 years.

    2. Use her position to get something out of the campaign (money for campaign debt, a VP slot).

    She is damaging the overall chances of the Democratic party to use as a bargaining position, the hostage analogy is apt.

    P.S. I wouldn’t have half the animosity toward hillary that I do now if it wasn’t for supporters such as yourself, who think making too cute argument somehow bolsters your case.

  136. 136.

    gypsy howell

    May 8, 2008 at 7:15 am

    God, I hope the next thread is better than this one. Or does the Tlaloc Hostage Crisis continue upstairs?

  137. 137.

    Gregory

    May 8, 2008 at 7:42 am

    Attica! Attica!

  138. 138.

    MBunge

    May 8, 2008 at 9:27 am

    At what point in the real world do you walk away from someone like Tlaloc or just pop’em in the puss? Do people like Tlaloc even exist in the real world? I’m trying to imagine someone sitting in a room, face to face with other human beings, spending this much time and energy making such a comprehensive and relentless defense of someone they claim not to even like that much.

    Mike

  139. 139.

    Gregory

    May 8, 2008 at 10:08 am

    this is the kind of twisted logic HC and her supporters have turned into an art form. Her campaign after the SC primary, makes a concious tactical decision to treat Obama like the Democratic opponent of Hillary as the GOP foe in the GE.

    Fixed.

    Hillary’s use — and, therefore, validation of — GOP frames in the Democratic primary is nigh-unforgivable.

  140. 140.

    chopper

    May 8, 2008 at 10:12 am

    oh noes! metaphors!

Comments are closed.

Trackbacks

  1. Balloon Juice says:
    May 21, 2008 at 3:23 pm

    […] Once again, the hostage crisis metaphor is appropriate. A roll down memory lane, when Hillary discussed the Michigan election last October: […]

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