Libby has the right take on this “POWERFUL” youtube video that Blake Fleetwood is begging us all to watch- it is nothing more than a hit piece on Obama. Otherwise, I am not sure why anyone thinks it is fair or appropriate to seem to beg Obama to apologize for a bunch of jackasses holding up an “Iron my shirt” sign at a Hillary event. Same for the rest of the crap attributed unfairly to Obama in the “powerful” youtube video.
Maybe this is just the more rabid wing of the Clinton supporters moving into the anger phase.
Starscream
I have a video of the Holocaust mixed with clips of Hillary Clinton saying “that’s not such a big deal”.
LEARN THE SHOCKING TRUTH NOW!!!!
El Doh
I guess I just wasn’t paying attention before. This has been the first primary where I’ve noticed such a high level of intellectual dishonesty in order to support a particular candidate over another from rank-and-file Democrats.
I expect it from the talking heads but in the past I’d generally found most people able to “disagree agreeably”.
4tehlulz
Yes, Obama should definitely apologize for a radio station stunt.
Notorious P.A.T.
This is just standard hard-core Hillary backer shtick: air a long list of grievances, almost none of which were even committed by Democrats, let alone the Obama campaign, and condemn Obama for. . . I don’t know, not spending most of his time helping someone he’s campaigning against rather than try to help his own campaign.
And then they use that list as basis for a threat to vote for Republicans–the same people that ARE responsible for most of them! How moronic is that?
I just did a couple Google searches and can’t find any instances of Clinton condemning racism directed against Obama. So I guess they’re even.
jake
I demand that everyone apologize to me for anything anyone has ever done or will do that offended or might offend me.
I wish I could believe these asshats are just Republican provocateurs.
zack
Google : “Michelle Obama – bitch.”
You get all the same sexism that’s directed at Hillary and all the racism that’s not.
Of course it would be absurd to blame Hillary for all these comments and hold her personally responsible for them.
Yet, that absurdity – blaming Obama holding him personally responsible for other people’s comments — is exactly what Hillary’s hardcore supporters are attempting to do to Obama.
I don’t think this is the “anger” phase, they’ve been there a long time. They’re now entering the “desperate” and “just plain pathetic” phase. Sad.
Andrew
Obama needs to apologize for being a male, which is as inherently anti-woman as you can get.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
I’m guessing you’re not old enough to remember the 1972 campaign then.
Go read Rick Perlstein’s “Nixonland” (I’m reading it now, and for me boy does it bring back memories, e.g. of the days when the N-word was used in polite middle class conversation without anybody noticing, even in a “liberal” part of the country) or read some other work regarding that era to get a feel for what US politics used to be like. With benefit of hindsight, and compared to present day conversation, the ugliness is shocking.
At least now the mudslinging can’t easily be localized to pander to the raw prejudices of each congressional district one by one, instead everybody all over the country gets a good look, like it or not. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. This year, look forward to a lot of disinfecting.
We really do have it better now, as bad as it seems at times. Howard Fineman’s new book “The 13 American Arguments” is another excellent read that gives you a good sense of how much cultural distance we’ve travelled over the last two generations, and makes for a hell of a contrast with Perlstein’s Nixonland. It is amazing how much more culturally progressive this country has become over the last several decades. In the long view, I think all the political victories the GOP has been winning with culture war wedge issues look more like a series of tactical victories covering the course of a strategic retreat than anything else. This really is a different country today than the one I grew up in.
KRK
I really think it would be simpler if Obama held off on apologizing for white people until he has made it through his apologies for every single black person who ever said or did anything.
He should pick up the pace, though, or he’ll never get through his apologies for Asians and Pacific Islanders by the convention.
Lynne
I don’t think Obama needs to apologize for sexists comments that his supporters may have made. I also do not think that Hillary needs to apologize for racists comments that her supporters may have made. The candidates are only responsible for what they have actually said, not implied.
However, the sexism documented on the video is disheartening, as would be a racist video about Obama. Over the months, I have read as commenters repeatedly railed over different things they saw as racist attacks on him, while celebrating and then adding to those attacks on her that can be seen as nothing as sexist.
Watch the video, disregard any reference to Obama in it and substitute Hillary with your favorite female politian, in order to overcome what might be a natural bias, and then see how you feel. Baby, we might have come a long way, but we’ve got a lot further to go.
MM
Yes Obama should clearly apologize for the Militaria Press urinal targets. A site with “Federal Democrat Hunting Permits” and “Angry White Males Will Decide This Election” bumper stickers is obviously going to be pro-Obama.
In the same vein, Adobe should also apologize for creating a tool like Photoshop which can be used to create such misogyny.
God, it’s like the Clinton supporters have channeled Sean Hannity.
John Cole
The whole thing is absurd. Tom Watson is playing concern troll over at his joint and Obama MUST SPEAK TO THE SEXISM.
Why, Obama, Why? Why did you secretly market an anti-Hillary urinal freshener? Why did you play a JayZ song with the word bitch in it? Why?
Dan
A sign of “Clinton supporters moving into the anger phase.” Moving into? They’ve been living in the anger phase since February. Their Kübler-Ross Grief Cycle is not going in the typical order. Since April, when the writing was on the wall, they’ve been in denial. And now they are bargaining, wanting Hillary on the ticket. Or else. Get a lot of or else from those people.
Libby Spencer
Lynne, I also find this stuff appalling and I have seen commenters on both sides of the fence use horribly offensive rhetoric. But I’ve never held either candidate responsible for what others say and have defended both for their own awkward lapses of language.
This particular video I thought was particularly counterproductive in so overtly using the same tactics it decries. I don’t think it helps Hillary or the feminist cause. It certainly does nothing to build unity, as the closing words of Hillary’s speech suggests we should be striving for.
I’d ask you to imagine how you would view it if this was Obama friendly video saying Hillary wasn’t fit for office because she didn’t speak out strongly enough about racism and used one of the more unflattering and suggestive images of her to make their point?
I don’t know. I ultimately voted for Obama but I never became emotionally invested in his candidacy and have been trying to maintain my equanimity about the process but this just raised such a surprisingly negative reaction in me that I blogged it. I just think at this point if you can’t make the case for your candidate without assigning blame to the other one, it’s really time to stop fighting.
AkaDad
I’ve been asking Hillary supporters to go out with me on dates, but they keep rejecting my offers. They clearly hate men.
PeterJ
NoQuarter is a republican psyop. I’ve heard that there’s a video out there of Larry Johnson setting up plans with Dick Cheney.
cleek
1. dislike someone
2. make an unreasonable and unjustified demand of that person
3. when that person fails to satisfy your demand, take take that as justification for 1
in other words: Hack!
tbogg
I made the same “anger” reference. Fleetwood is a nitwit.
El Doh
You’re right, I’m not :) The first campaign I paid any attention to (as opposed to being old enough to vote in — to my shame, I was one of the apathetic youth) was the ’96 campaign. Even then, I only really stayed on top of events from 2000 onwards.
My partner’s mother was very middle class in sensibilities, and yet was happy to use terms like “jungle bunnies” til the day she died. I found that pretty shocking at first, but over time you grow resigned that some people just aren’t going to change. As she died, so died that behavior.
Nixonland’s already on my long, long list of stuff I need to get around to reading.
I’ve spoken out against sexist commentary, because despite Hillary being the candidate I liked least of those with a decent shot, some things are just wrong. I’d be fine with her as the nominee though, she just wasn’t my preferred choice for reasons unrelated to her gender.
That said, there’s a lot of what looks like misdirected, misplaced or manufactured outrage right now claiming that “it’s all Obama’s fault!” even though the majority of the most egregious attacks outside of perhaps blogs have been from the media (cleavage, ankles, Matthew’s garbage, etc.) or from the right-wing (“how do we beat…”, “Citizens United ..”).
Of course, quite a few of those ranting about the blatant sexism being Obama’s fault are the same ones that claim Obama “gave Hillary the finger”, and having seen that video, I deduce those people are living in a different reality to me anyway.
Rome Again
I disagree. The candidates should be held accountable for what they have both said and implied, but they should not be held responsible for what their supporters have said or implied. We are only responsible for our own actions, but we are responsible for ALL of our own actions.
nightjar
I hereby declare myself Switzerland and neutral in all matters of silly and gratuitous mudslinging. Please excuse, I’m late for my yodeling lesson.
jake
I demand that you apologize for not providing free Swiss Army knives to every person over the age of 12.
nightjar
Neutral is never having to say your sorry. sorry.
Brachiator
The phony idea that Obama and Obama supporters have a special obligation to reject and denounce sexism has been floating around for some time. It has been a theme of email conversations that I’ve been having with friends who are Hillary supporters, and it has popped up now and again here in messages from Soujourner and others.
But this latest youtube video seems to strongly resemble a recent WAPO column by Marie Cocco, which also includes an odd charge that Howard Dean and Democratic Party leaders are responsible for stamping out sexism everywhere (Misogyny I Won’t Miss):
At least Cocco is honest enough to note that Penn Jillette was rebuked for his remarks. And Randi Rhodes was suspended for her remarks, although here I find it deplorable that some so-called progressives appear to have no problem with censoring people for political speech just because it is ugly.
Similarly, I find it interesting that some of her supporters want to treat Senator Clinton as a kind of aristocrat, with Cocco being shocked that a former first lady and senator is treated with such disrespect. And it is disrespect, as much as sexism, at play here, since this supposedly SHOCKING video mixes non-sexist attacks with stuff that is clearly nasty and anti-woman. How is journalist Samantha Power’s accusation that Senator Clinton was “a monster” sexist? Would images of Senator Clinton coming back after she was supposedly defeated still be sexist if they used Freddy Krueger or Friday the 13th’s Jason as a metaphor instead of the character from Fatal Attraction?
But the bottom line is that it is unfair and irrational to hold Obama uniquely responsible for any of the excessive dreck that is surfacing during the course of this primary campaign.
ThymeZone
I totally agree. This is presidential politics, and the office being sought is one in which every facial expression and ever word is parsed and dissected around the world. People who operate at this level must take responsibility for the various ways their words can be interpreted, or else they are not fit to walk on that stage.
As for the actions of rabid supporters, the candidates might be seen as responsible if something reaches the point where the candidate is being asked to speak to supporters about their behavior, but in general I don’t see how they can be held accountable for supporters’ actions. If that were the case, the the ratfuck brigades would be out in force every day. Hillarites posting as Obmamites could act up at Hillary rallies and try to get Obama blamed for it.
Now, something like that would never happen, would it?
Aw, come on. Would it?
Rome Again
hehe!
Just Some Fuckhead
Song for Clinton Supporters
PeterJ
Also, there’s people high up in their campaigns and prominent surrogates.
While they shouldn’t be held responsible for them, they should be held responsible if they don’t do anything about it.
This six degrees crap would in the end mean that only people locked up in a cellar for 35 years would be able to run for president.
And Clinton shouldn’t be held responsible for Larry Johnson and his site, especially since NoQuarter is a republican psyop.
libarbarian
more than half of that isn’t even sexist. Do they have any idea how pathetic they sound citing his use of the word “periodically” as sexist? Fuck them.
kwAwk
I would bet a weeks pay we would be seeing similar types of stories written by Obama supporters if those jackasses had shown up at an Obama rally with a sign that said ‘Pick My Cotton’ as opposed to ‘Iron My Shirt’. I would bet we would be hearing a lot more from Obama supporters if at the McCain townhall someone had come up to him and asked him “How do we beat the coon?”. I would bet we would be hearing quite a bit from the Obama supporter is a popular left wing talk show host had said Obama and Michelle were just a couple of jiggerboos.
This campaign has shown how much more acceptable sexism is in today’s culture as opposed to racism. Why not just accept that and move on? Why the need for the ‘oh Clinton supporters are just moving into the ‘anger phase’ bullshit? Hell, if we are angry at anything it is the fact that we pretty much have an empty suit with no history of accomplishing anything as the Democratic nominee. In response to George W. Bush we’ve nominated the left wing equivilent of George W. Bush to replace him.
Rome Again
I think you missed your meds.
ThymeZone
Sorry, you need to put up at least $50 to get me interested in a bet.
ksmiami
Dear KwAwk: I am not sure where you’ve been for the past year, but to think that someone as intelligent and as managerially superior as Barack Obama is anyway a “left wing equivalent of GW Bush” is just bull-crap. Also, I am a woman and Hillary and her supporters’ constant whining about sexism when their candidate got to her position by marriage and victimology is just hysterical ranting and does nothing for the women’s movement at all. Obama won’t be perfect, but right now I want normal and thoughtful. Please get over the fact that half the country hated hillary already and she was a poor candidate choice for the Democrats this year. I have been a loyal contributing dem since Bill ran in 1992, but I wanted new blood and for what it is worth, the democrats need to run an especially charismatic star to have a shot at winning the presidency in this nation even in a recession year.
kwAwk
Yeah. All the Bushies do is toss around personal attacks too.
I wonder if John has started to notice that the reason he feels so comfortable around you guys as a Democrat is that you have the same mentality as the sheep who elected George W. Bush.
Lynne
Libby, I also suffered a negative reaction, not against Obama, but against the pure misogyny that has been exhibited so many times in this election, which is why I suggested looking at the video and ignoring the references to Obama and imagining the venom directed towards a woman other than Hillary. I would be just as offended if the blatent sexism directed towards Hillary in so many instances were directed at Kay Bailey Hutchinson, Libby Dole or any other woman whose policies I disagreed with.
It just depresses me that so many feel it is acceptable to compare Hillary or any other woman with the Wicked Witch of the West or the psychopath Glenn Close played, or to call a woman a bitch, or to distribute urinal targets with any woman’s face on them. Whether or not someone cares for Hillary as a candidate, to laugh at it or find it acceptable in any form or fashion is just plain wrong.
I myself haven’t been in the workplace since the late 1980’s, and worked in the securities industry – a field dominated by men at that time. I had to put up with an unbelievable amount of crap, including literally having to jump out of a chair once to keep some idiot from trying to plant a kiss on me. I don’t imagine things like that happen too often any more, but at some point I hope that making derogatory comments about women is found to be as generally offensive as racist comments are.
Napoleon
While you are at it also the book that came out last fall about McGovern’s campaign called “The Liberal’s Moment”
At least Obama has more elected experience the HRC, who if she has proven anything in this election is that she would be an incompetent disaster as President.
KRK
Haven’t folks here noted that Clinton’s website has linked to posts at NoQ from time to time? If true, then they’ve embraced a psyop and ought to undo their imprimatur of agreement. None of that Glenn Reynolds “A link isn’t an endorsement” crap.
Yeah, I’m sure that’s the lesson everyone will take away from this campaign. Good catch.
Napoleon
Bingo
kwAwk
ksmiami – What has Barack Obama ever managed? A few pep rallies maybe? And seriously, if Hillary Clinton only managed to get her position because of marriage to Bill Clinton, then why is it that she is the first and only first lady to have served in the Senate and made a convincing run towards the White House? Could it possibly be because people know her to be extremely intelligent and extremely hard working?
But thank you for illustrating to us the sexism that is applied to her, even by some women.
nightjar
kwakk
Oh just bullshit on your straw man (woman). Few if any people here believe HC is not a capable and hard working person. Now your slinging feces about in pointless desperation. Sad to see, but we’re used to it here.
Doug H. (Fausto no more)
A winning Democratic nomination?
Rome Again
Really, lying about having to run from bullets in Bosnia was intelligent? I never knew. And the idea that because she has previously slept in the White House means she knows how to answer the phone at 3 am…. ummm, is that intelligent? It falls into the bin of complete and sheer idiocy to me. Sorry.
I am female, and I have to say that it is not so much the tact that sexism is being used that is pissing me off so much as the idea that because I’m female I have to vote for her. I won’t, so just STFU already.
Napoleon
What has HRC managed – nothing. Your candidate lost because she is an incompetent pathological liar who bought her senate seat against non-existent opposition and when faced with real opposition proved how terrible her management skills were. Of course it was already apparent that she was an opportunistic scumbag willing to send thousands of Americans to their deaths in a war for her own personal political career.
Rome Again
Home Run with bases loaded! Oh yeah!
kwAwk
nightjar Says:
Oh okay, so she is a capable and hardworking person who has a tremendous grasp of the issues who only got where she is through he marriage and victimology.
I get it now, thank you for schooling me on that. lmao
kwAwk
Rome Again Says:
Great. Now that ties him with Adalai Stevenson, Walter Mondale, Michael Dukakis and John Kerry.
A grand slam just ain’t what it used to be I guess.
Llelldorin
kwAwk, comparing experiences seems to be a wash to me–8 years in the Senate doesn’t strike me as anything better than comparable to 4 in the Senate and 8 in the Illinois State Senate.
Clinton supporters constantly post as though Clinton were Pelosi, with decades of experience in the Congress. She’s at best comparable to Obama, if you’re generous and assume that 4 extra years in the Senate is worth 8 in a state legislature.
And really, comparable to Bush? If you want to play childish games, I’d point out that it wasn’t Obama who hired wildly incompetent yes men at great expense, with disastrous results. That’s stretching a point, though. NO Democrat in this race, from the very beginning, has been even slightly comparable to George W. Bush. The weakest of our also-rans, Kucinich and Gravel, dwarf Bush in any possible comparison.
El Doh
… which is still more than Hillary managed.
Seriously, straw man much?
Rome Again
Methinks you need to wipe the handsweat and dust off that crystal ball you’re using. It’s giving you bad info.
Doug H. (Fausto no more)
And Franklin D. Roosevelt, and John F. Kennedy, and Bill Clinton. But your quick change of topic is duly noted. Don’t you have a Chronic Hillary Whiners For McCain meeting to attend?
Rome Again
Thanks El Doh, you made me fall off my chair! :)
nightjar
Nope. She got to where she is, which is second place in the dem primary, because she ran poor campaign and got fewer votes.
vwcat
Why does Obama have to speak for people who have razzed Hillary?
This is just more crap by Hillbots. They are now holding Obama responsible for Hillary running a lousy campaign and use gender as an excuse. and a weapon.
Rome Again
Really kwAwk, if you want to obfuscate on something, why not take a second look at this, I’d really like your take on it:
How can you support such a person who has to resort to these tactics?
Rome Again
The Hilbots used gender as an excuse and a weapon. When it didn’t work they had to find someone to blame.
kwAwk
Rome Again Says:
I guess that would be pretty funny if I didn’t know what a straw man arguement was like you.
Starscream
The calculus of many Clinton supporters seems to be this:
Misogyny is a bad thing happening to Hillary Clinton.
Losing the Democratic nomination is a bad thing happening to Hillary Clinton.
Ergo, losing the Democratic nomination is an inherently misogynistic thing.
The odd thing is just how much it undercuts the primary justification for supporting Hillary Clinton, which is that she’s the fighter who can stand up to anything, who knows everything that comes her way and can deftly turn it aside.
They’re left attempting to create the boogeyman she’s fighting against while simultaneously ignoring her wholehearted failure to effectively fight back against the superior organization and message of her opponent. She’s faced an incredibly amount of sexism in her run…but that doesn’t excuse the actual and numerous failures of her campaign or somehow exempt her from the brass tacks world of politics she’s supposed to be in such great command of.
Doug H. (Fausto no more)
Oh, I’m sorry, that was the Whiny Elementary School Clinton Supporters For McCain meeting I should’ve referred to. Tonight’s topic is right up your alley: “I Know You Are, But What Am I?”
AkaDad
A gathering of misogynists.
PeterJ
Please, can someone tell me a major democratic blogger that has been posting sexist attacks on Clinton?
Rome Again
You’ve certainly never heard of Ad Hominem attacks. Argue the message kwAwk, not the messenger.
Rome Again
She chose her own poison by running “as a woman” and not as a just another candidate.
flyerhawk
Honestly why waste time with kwawk? Clearly she/he are only interested in doing drive bys.
There are arguments that can be made that Hillary is the better choice. I don’t agree with them but they do exist. Arguing that she is a better manager than Obama based on her past experience is inane.
ThymeZone
My hunch would be, listmember, possibly DougJ.
Without doubt, spoof.
kwAwk
Llelldorin Says:
You forgot 8 years of being actively involved in the White House and 12 years in the Governor’s mansion in Arkansas.
Can you name for me one great legislative accomplishment he’s had in those 12 years you speak of?
You are correct, it wasn’t Obama who hired wildly incompetent yes men. Ofcourse he hasn’t hired much of anybody though. Aside from that Bush didn’t hire a bunch of yes men either. In fact he hired a bunch of people who walked all over him because they were simply more experienced than he was. Who would call Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld yes men?
ThymeZone
Glass ceilings and all. Or maybe she meant “mirrored ceiling?”
Hmmm.
ThymeZone
Really? In what capacity? She had the same security clearance as the housekeeping staff.
Rome Again
Thank you for posting that AkaDad, that is certainly impressive… and WOW, I see quite a few women in that crowd! :)
kwAwk
Rome Again Says:
My take on that? Hillary is a politician, just like Barack Obama. Is it any different that Obama claiming that after attending Jeremiah Wright’s church for 20 years that he didn’t know that Dr. Wright had some pretty outlandish beliefs about how the US was responsible for 9/11 or about how white people clap?
Hell, if a man’s pastor for 20 years calls him a politician then who are we to argue?
Rome Again
Wow, he ran a winning campaign with almost no help from anyone, sounds like he knows how to downsize really well. I think that’s necessary in these trying economic times.
flyerhawk
Akadad,
Holy cow! That is an insane amount of people to attend a rally. There are only 4 million people in the entire state!
Rome Again
You’re not going to win me on that argument, my beliefs are much more wild than Jeremiah Wrights. What’s more, I believe that commonly held beliefs of patriotism and religion are absolutely downright evil. You go along with the evil that men do, I abhor the very idea. Jeremiah Wright was right to say the things he did, and you can’t take a stand on that, you’re either deluded into thinking America is always right and good or you’re just a follower who can’t take a stand for something real that’s staring you in the face.
Doug H. (Fausto no more)
Name us one of Hillary’s. Or McCain’s.
ThymeZone
Holy shit, that Oregon rally video is …. pretty much the end of any horse manure about who can and who cannot win this November.
As somebody said at DKos …. we’ve never seen anything like this before.
Now I’m sorry I only bet DougJ a few bucks on the election outcome.
El Doh
… and this from someone who can’t actually *spell* “argument”.
Sheer genius.
Rome Again
Actually, I think the housekeeping staff has more clearance. They could take drinks and snacks into meetings she wasn’t allowed to attend.
kwAwk
Doug H. (Fausto no more) Says:
Apparently Doug H. doesn’t know what a straw man is either. Perhaps John could do a thread explaining that a straw man is setting up a phoney argument against a position that nobody has taken and is not simply an assertion that candidate A is more qualified than candidate B.
Bey
My god. 75K people to hear a stump speech out in the open. I’ll bet the Secret Service is losing their collective minds.
This is what the Hillary supporters, the angry ones anyway, can’t understand.
She just doesn’t have that kind of inspiring presence. She’s capable, she’s brilliant, but she seems unable to make people want to be better than they are. She doen’t seem able to inspire people to pull themselves out of the mire we’ve been stuck in since 2000.
Obama makes us realize that we have a good shot at turning this country around. And Hillary, for all her brilliance, just doesn’t.
Rome Again
You couldda made a mint! :)
Conservatively Liberal
I see the shill known as
kwAwkkrOck has crawled out from under his cowchip and is tracking his crap in here. Cleek’s pie filter is the perfect place to consign this ‘moran’.How about having Hillary apologize for the Reverend Wright/planes crashing in to the twin towers video that a supporter of hers was so kind to produce and post at YouTube? Supporters of both candidates have gone overboard at times, but at least Obama’s supporters are not aligned with the Operation Chaos and Republican ratfuckers who want her to win because she is the weaker candidate.
Hillary is not responsible for Obama’s supporters words and actions, and the same applies to Obama not being responsible for this latest crap that Libby and John have written about. Neither have to apologize for anything that the others supporters have provoked. But it sure makes a nice straw man argument for the Clinton supporters. I guess they like munching on straw.
I know Hillary supporters are supposed to be ‘low information voters’, but can’t they stop for a second and think why the Republicans want her to win the primary so McCain gets to run against her? Do they really think that the Republicans are trying to get the strongest candidate that the Democrats can put forth to run against McCain?! The Republicans know that Obama will draw votes away from McCain, and that some of their people are already saying that they will not vote for McCain and four more years of Bush.
The Republicans know that their only hope is to get Hillary in for the win, and that is why Rush and the rest of the ratfuckers are out there helping her in any way they can. Obama will peel off voters from the right and other Republicans will be less than enthusiastic about McCain and just sit it out, costing them dearly in the fall. If Hillary is given the primary win then this will depress Democratic turnout plus drive Republican turnout.
No doubt about it, the Republicans want Hillary in and her supporters can’t even be sure that the ‘Hillary supporter’ they are talking to is a real one or a ratfucker. So all the right has to do is nudge her supporters in to doing something extreme that will benefit them. Push Hillary supporters to back a third party run by her if she is not given the win, move them to McCain or get them disgusted enough to quit the party and sit it out.
I can understand a Hillary supporter saying that they refuse to vote for Obama, and so they will write Hillary in or sit the election out. Those sound like things a real Democratic supporter would consider. At Hillary sites, I read those who are pushing for McCain or a third party run and I see quite a few real Hillary supporters saying no way, or asking for some reasoning to explain why they should go that route.
Hillary is creating a possible disaster for this fall by pushing past the point of reasonableness in her primary run. She has given the right campaign material, and she is giving the right the chance to screw things up for us this fall. The only way the right can win this fall is to cause division and dissent in the Democratic ranks, and the only way they will boost their base enough to get out and vote is to have Hillary run against McCain.
Obama is a winner this fall but, intentionally or not, Hillary and the rats are doing everything they can to trash it for him.
kwAwk
Rome Again Says:
I can say that I disagreed with Dr. Wright about the chickens coming home to roost with 9/11 either. But Barack Obama didn’t own up to it if he does agree with it and acted like the notion of anybody saying it was a total shock to him. He did and said what he needed to do to get elected.
Rome Again
But, according to kwAwk, Obama doesn’t have what it takes, hmmmmm! He can’t find any support, certainly that 75k who went to see him in Portland means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
Pug
…we pretty much have an empty suit with no history of accomplishing anything as the Democratic nominee.
Very tiresome argument. Hillary had a more than fair shot at the nomination as she entered with universal name recognition, more than enough money, the vaunted Clinton Machine, Bill Clinton and every other advantage.
She gave it the best shot she had and she lost. There’s no shame in that. She made some serious errors in judgement, especially regarding the caucus states and assuming she would have it locked up by February 5th. We all pay for our mistakes and Hillary is no exception.
Just Some Fuckhead
All Republicans, trying to stop HRC from getting the Democratic nomination.
Rome Again
Really, you watched a different response then I saw. I saw him stating that people in black churches talk a bit differently than their white counterparts (and I believe they talk more about what’s real, personally).
KRK
From AkaDad’s link:
There he goes again, uniting away.
Rome Again
Well, to be fair, Hillary is uniting Dems with McCain.
KRK
Exactly. Which is why I find it really offensive and damaging for her (and her supporters) to now pretend that she’s somehow being cheated. Great messaage for girls and other women: if you can’t win, complain that it’s so unfair and everyone is picking on you. What great strides we’ve made.
Bey
That attitude boggles me. I can only attribute it to willful denial. Who ya gonna believe – KwAwk et al, or your own lyin’ eyes?
She did indeed. Or her advisors did, and by the time it became apparent they had seriously underestimated Obama, it was much too late.
Those kinds of lessons hurt, but if she wants to learn from it, she’ll end up even more formidible than she is now. I’d really like to see her in a prominent position in Obama’s administration.
AkaDad
You’re welcome.
That was my first thought too.
In the comments, someone said that 75k is 1/8 of Portland’s population.
I lol’d.
Rome Again
Should I have used my snark tag? LMAO!
cleek
now wait just a minute. Hillary hasn’t won the nomination, yet.
Bey
Bad construction on my part – it’s the KwAwk attitude that boggles.
Rome Again
One out of every eight people in Portland was at that rally… but, Obama can’t bring out people to vote for him. Whoddathunkit?
Rome Again
Here in Phoenix we have a radio station that is giving away free gas, I think McCain was one of the first in line.
Rome Again
Understood, I was just joking with you.
kwAwk (or as I’m coming to call him kwAwkward) is a Repub shill, obviously.
flyerhawk
Wow. So the crazy Hillary supporters aren’t just an Internet phenomenon.
I don’t know what to say about this
Dennis - SGMM
When was the last time that 75,000 people showed up to hear an American politician speak? I can’t really remember any politician drawing a larger crowd.
Llelldorin
How are those periods relevant? I’m not a Web designer by osmosis just because I’m married to one!
This is a classic debater’s trick–as asked, “great” is entirely at your discretion, so your response to absolutely anything I might say is likely to be along the lines of, “is that ALL???” Nonetheless, I consider the Lugar-Obama initiative quite important.
Really? So Obama’s running his campaign personally, and without a staff? And he has not staff working for him in the Senate either? I consider that quite unlikely.
Your characterization of Bush is a bit wrong–his appointees didn’t walk all over him “because they were simply more experienced than he was.” Appointees are supposed to be more experienced in their fields than their boss–that’s the point! Most Presidents aren’t incurious idiots who go out of their way to encourage groupthink to avoid hard decisions. Bill Clinton’s appointees didn’t lack oversight. Hillary Clinton’s won’t, should she somehow manage to be nominated and then win. Neither would Obama’s.
All that is beside the point. I don’t seriously believe that Clinton is in any way like Bush. The suggestion is actually offensive, I don’t believe it in any way, and I’m hardly going to defend it. Frankly, your suggestion that Obama is somehow similar to Bush is equally offensive, and I’d suggest that you withdraw it.
What, after all, is the point to needlessly antagonizing Obama supporters? I’ll assume that you’re not just a Republican provocateur–that you genuinely believe that Clinton can and will win the nomination. Presumably you’ll want our enthusiastic support at that point, right?
cleek
for the Hillary supporters: Can you name for me one great legislative accomplishment she’s had in those 35 years of experience she’s running on ?
kwAwk
I know you guys get your jollies talking about how bad of a campaign Hillary Clinton has run, but to be honest, there isn’t any Democrat who could come up for any plan to win a nomination while losing 85% of the black vote across the board. And don’t give me any bullshit about how national polls showed Hillary getting a certain percentage of the black vote, it didn’t materialize in one single state. It was a political mirage that existed only up until the point it became apparent that Obama could get enough votes from the other races to be competitive. It was closer to being like New Jersey which flirts with giving the Repubs a chance to win in polls before elections but always swings to the Democrats as the last minute.
Saying Barack Obama has unified the Democratic party in spite of Hillary is simply absurd. What has really split the Democratic party is having one candidate who isn’t allowed to be criticized on any issue. Any fault he has, like the Wright issue, somehow magically becomes in the minds of Obots the fault of somebody else. It is Hillary’s fault for bringing it up, not the fault of the Obamas themselves. Just like Obama’s rhetoric had its surge in popularity before becoming tiring among many democrats, so too will in the general election many people will tire of the constant empty rhetoric and the sly playing of the race card whenever he needs a boost.
Simply having a rally in one city of 75,000, well whooptie shit really. He’s the presumptive democratic nominee and he just got pounded last week by 40% in the last primary and stands to get pounded again next week by 30%. He has tremendous support among pockets of the population certainly, and he has ‘rock star’ appeal among those pockets as you suggest, but to a large part of even the democratic party he comes off as a typical ivy league educated snob.
Dennis - SGMM
What about the wildly successful Clinton Health Care Plan of 1994?
cleek
nut up, kwAwk. she lost. it’s over.
jake
You know who else drew large crowds?
Hitler.
ThymeZone
That’s right Mister Krockass Spoof, from the looks of it, they all went home disappointed. They were booing there at the end, right?
Hey, do you have that list handy of former appearances by politicians that drew 75k people?
Thanks in advance.
AkaDad
Awesome. This is my first threadjack and I got someone to Godwin it. Jen would be proud.
Conservatively Liberal
75k in Oregon to hear Obama? Big deal. If Hillary’s supporters could get off work or out of their nursing home to vote, she would have millions at her rallies!
/hillarysupporter
myiq2xu
kwAwk:
You’re wasting your time trying to be reasonable. This place is CDS central.
They even ignored instructions from the Precious to be nice.
BTW – I see TZ dusted off one of his old sockpuppets.
Bey
Oh my.
I think I’ll believe my own lyin’ eyes, but thanks for the laugh. The pocket here in Colorado Springs is known for it’s wild support of “ivy league educated snobs”. Haggard and Dobson were always after us about it. Really :D
Doug H. (Fausto no more)
Right, it wasn’t the Clinton campaign’s fault they lost the African-American vote, them darkies they just vote for their own, don’t they?
Dennis - SGMM
kwAwk is right. Despite being educated at Wellesley College and Yale, Clinton does not come across as an Ivy Leaguer. She comes across as the most boring Economics teacher I ever had.
Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
Doug H. (Fausto no more)
Yeah, I’m insulting you and your candidate, but I’m trying to be reasonable!
Yup, ‘reasonable’.
Dennis - SGMM
I’d guess that not believing that you’re entitled to the nomination would be a good starting point.
Davis X. Machina
…we pretty much have an empty suit with no history of accomplishing anything as the Democratic nominee.
The guy on your five dollar bill spent a lot of time in the Illinois legislature, but served a total of one (1) term in the U.S. House.
Ran for US Senate for Illinois, and lost.
And was mostly famous for giving speeches.
nightjar
Alright I won’t. What I’ll give you is HIllary got 60-70% of the White Woman vote in several of the biggest states. It more than made up for the black vote. Did I say she lost because she ran a Coronation campaign, instead of a political one.
Rome Again
Funny NoIQ, I simply wanted to be back in my original skin.
Regards,
Asti
cleek
the guy on the dime did 2 years as a state Senator and them a single term as governor before becoming a four-term President.
and note that McCain wins the length-of-elected-service argument, hands down. (not that a Clinton supporter would ever argue in favor of a Republican, of course).
Rome Again
That’s awesome!
Llelldorin
And yet somehow Dukakis managed quite nicely whilst losing 92% of the black vote, and starting from a far weaker position.
The Clinton campaign’s greatest error in this primary season has been to simply “write off” states and demographics that she didn’t think she’d need. (This mistake isn’t hers alone–the Obama campaign, IMHO, made a similar mistake in WV and is getting disastrously bad advice to do the same with the entire Appalachian region. I’m hoping that they’ll remember that they won because their primary opponent followed similarly idiotic advice.) In the end, she sliced her portion of the electorate a bit too thin, and has now all-but-lost the nomination because of it.
Rome Again
Yup, just like I predicted, kwAwkward thinks it means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
Dave_Violence
Hi there!
I’m voting for McCain – but… I’ve always voted for Republicans… …and I’d vote for a woman Republican… …and I have voted for black republicans. Why, I even voted for Karl Malone for the NRA board.
Anyway, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! Is Hillary! really under this level of attack because she’s a woman? Shirley Chisholm, Geraldine Ferraro, Anne Richards, lots and lots of females have run for office and have been successful… Why, all of a sudden, is Hillary! unable to deflect “sexist” attacks? …and it sure looks like the attacks are coming from within her own party, that is, the BO campaign.
…Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot! why are you doing this to each other? Is it necessary to go to this level of ugliness? I don’t like BO’s and Hillary!’s politics, not their physical make-up. You people need to behave.
..on the other hand, keep it up! Less work for McCain.
Conservatively Liberal
My econ professor in college made Ben Stein sound lively. I was really interested in the classes, but he droned like a small airplane and had the charisma of a rock. By the mid-point of the class, my eyes would be drooping and head nodding. And I had plenty of sleep the night before.
Must be something about economics that does it to them. Stats, numbers and specifics are the perfect subject to drone on about. My chem professor was a woman, and she was a great teacher. She involved the class in every discussion, so you had to pay attention or else. Same with the labs, she was right there working with the students and helping them understand what they were trying to accomplish. That keeps you awake and involved.
Economics is a pretty dry subject for most people.
Dennis - SGMM
Hillary draws much smaller crowds, to be sure, but the people in them count.
Sirkowski
If Obama had campaigned for Hillary, she would have won. Ya, that’s it.
ThymeZone
Sockpuppet. That’s right, shit for brains.
Good one. Really. You never fail to live up to our expectations.
Rome Again
Sorry Dave, you’re late to the party. Your WTF obviously proves you weren’t around to notice the feminist “Hillary must win because she’s a girl” crap coming from the Hillary campaign. So, instead of acting all surprised, why don’t you sit down and STFU unless you know what you’re talking about. This isn’t Obama supporters doing, this is reaction from Obama supporters from the crap coming from the Hilbots. You want to victimize the Hilbots, I guess that’s your prerogative, personally I think they should just shut up about the sexist crap and get over the fact that their candidate lost.
Oh, and you openly admit you support McCain on a thread where he is completely and embarrassingly proven to be a liar? Did you even WATCH the video?
Better spoof, please.
Rome Again
Well, I do admit, I stated the video was on this thread, and I was wrong. Dave, go check out your swell candidate making a fool of himself here.
Rome Again
I’m amazed that anyone would compare me to TZ, WOW, just wow, thanks! :) I take that as a compliment.
I have to go now, but, before I do, I’d like to ask kwAwkward, where is your candidate going to get the money to continue on her campaign? How can she secure the nomination when she can’t even bring in the money to run for the presidency? Why does she have to keep giving herself the funding? Why does Barack NOT have to do that? Hmmmm?
I look forward to your answers with bated breath.
Rome Again
Only sometimes… moreover, Hillary doesn’t know how to count dollars, apparently.
Dennis - SGMM
Because the black people sent him all of their crack money?
Dave_Violence
… I’m from New York…
Folks, all you have to do is look at Hillary!’s website, she has a lot of legislative accomplishments… and she looks heavily pro-military: http://clinton.senate.gov/senate/legislation/
ThymeZone
Me too. I don’t look anything like a pinup girl.
Soylent Green
I had hoped to go to the Portland rally today. My bike club ride crossed downtown at about noon, weaving through the huge masses of people streaming toward the riverfront park from all directions three hours before Obama was to appear. Beautiful sunny day and all the tens of thousands smiling as though they were heading for the world’s biggest fireworks display. I figured I would be too late to make it thru the gate.
Portland’s in the tank. Statewide too but not by a crazy margin, I’d guess eight or ten points.
Plus John Edwards on his jet ski.
Rome Again
Neither do I, sir. You are far too kind. ;)
Dave_Violence
Why don’t you go fuck yourself. I’m not late to anything, retard, particularly not this blog, back when it was on the Right, bitch. NO ONE takes Hillary! seriously with the “I’m a girl” (they actually used that word?) stuff that, gee, I don’t remember hearing about at all.
Knock off the hyper-pro-BO shit and maybe you’ll be taken seriously. Both sides are making lots of the attacks up, it’s pretty obvious.
Rome Again
But I still think you remind me of Gary Cooper, TZ. :)
Okay, I’m leaving now.
TZ, email me at AS please.
Conservatively Liberal
Compare this reality:
What about when Hillary complained about always getting the first question in the debates? That the ‘boys’ were ganging up on her, the ‘girl’ in the race. What about her direct appeals to her female supporters that the girls have to back each other up?
to this:
What about when Obama complained about never getting the first question in the debates, that he was passed up first because of his race? That the ‘whites’ were ganging up on him, the ‘black’ in the race. What about his direct appeals to black supporters that the blacks have to back each other up?
Which statement above is true, and which never happened? Now tell me this; which candidate played what first?
She played the sexism card card in a bid to build her support, plain and simple. If Obama had played his ‘disadvantage’ to the same level she did, he would rightfully be called a racist. Well, if anyone is carrying around the ‘-ist’ baggage, it is Hillary and her more rabid supporters.
Rome Again
Funny, I was here for the Schiavo stuff, but, you seem to have conveniently forgot that.
You also seem to have forgotten the feminist threads that Krista and I were on (I was Asti) back about two or three months ago when we felt like we were being admonished and pushed to support Hillary simply because we were women.
Oh, and your “bitch” comment was classic, for someone making an argument against mysogynistic Obama supporters.
ThymeZone
Shucks.
Rome Again
Absolutely, and now I bid you all adieu for a while.
Dennis - SGMM
You remind me of Gary Busey.
Libby Spencer
Lynne, Maha Barb has a good post on that point. To a significant extent, the attacks on Hilary don’t arise from pure misogyny but are rather Clinton specific and both she and Bill have been targets of that for the last 15 years. What you’re seeing within the context of the campaign is CDS writ large. Digby also has a great post pointing out this has been standard media MO in their role as mouthpieces for the conservative agenda for many years. All strong liberal women are emasculating bitches or crazy broads and all liberal men are wussy Latte drinkers. The place to push back is against them, not Obama.
Meanwhile, Obama gave an off the cuff interview to Blogher, who came up with the novel approach of asking him to answer questions on women’s issues in a taped segment. It was really well conducted and IMO he came across as informed and genuine.
They’ve invited McCain, who has I believe declined and Hillary who hasn’t responded yet. She would do well to accept the invite. Much better way to make her case.
ThymeZone
Shucks.
Can you send me a picture?
Dennis - SGMM
:)
ThymeZone
Psssh. They don’t arise from any form or degree of misogyny, they arise from her repellent behavior, attitude, and conduct.
Cut the crap please.
Lynne
We now interrupt our regularly scheduled programming of fighting and snark between the pro-Hillary and pro-Obama segments of this blog’s commentariat.
Karen Tumulty at Time’s Swampland has a post up regarding the sexism so prevalent in this campaign and links to an opinion piece written by Connie Schultz (Sherrod Brown’s wife) in the May 14 edition of the Cleveland Plain Dealer.
Both Karen’s and Connie’s pieces are worth a read. And no, neither has anything to do with Barack.
cbear
Gary Cooper as TZ—–and Walter Brennan as myiq. I like it.
Llelldorin
That strikes me as much too strong. Our attacks don’t arise from misogyny, but many of the attacks on Clinton (particularly those from the media and from conservatives) very much do. There are plenty of Obama supporters who I wish we could lock in a closet until election day. That’s not a slam on Obama–it’s been true of every political movement I’ve ever seen. It would be nice if idiots uniformly sorted themselves away from our side, but generally speaking they don’t.
ThymeZone
Adjusted.
jake
McCane talking about women’s issues.
The mind boggles:
“By the year 2013, American women have accepted their role as subservient helpmates to American men. Unemployment among men is almost non-existent because they no longer have to compete with women for jobs…”
flyerhawk
Stay classy, Dave.
cbear
“My friends, I did not have sexual relations with that trollop.”
ThymeZone
Bullshit.
And from conservatives? The people who think that the earth was created 6000 years ago?
The bottom line on this horsemanure argument is, if “electing a woman” is on the table, is supposed to be a valid consideration, then “not electing a woman” is also on the table, and there is nothing misogynistic about it.
I can’t decide which is stupider, electing somebody president because she is a woman, or not electing somebody president because she is a woman. Either way, either they are both on the table, or else neither is on the table.
In my opinion, they are both on the table, and all the rest of this churn is just two-bit namecalling.
Dave_Violence
OK… It’s just that I’ve always wanted to say “go…yourself…” Tee-hee!
myiq2xu
With cbear as Ned Beatty
“I’m gonna make you squeal like a pig. Weeeeeeee!”
zoe from pittsburgh
Actually one of the red flags that started to nudge me out of Hillary’s camp is her habit of referring to herself as a “girl.” It’s not a big deal in itself, however, maybe some here are too young to remember that Hillary has long been a feminist who is afraid of appearing “too feminist.” (Hence all the “girl” talk and dropping her maiden name.) So her “I’m your girl” nonsense reminded me of how she has a habit of rejecting parts of herself that are criticized rather than just proudly be who she is.
My biggest problem with Hillary has been how quickly she distances herself from who she really is if she thinks it will earn her votes. She’s not a blue-collar, gun-toting populist. She looks ridiculous when she does this and isn’t helping herself or the standing of women in politics in general. Also, when a 60-year old woman who has been in the limelight as long as she has suddenly says “I’ve found my voice” a year into her campaign one has to raise an eyebrow. Hillary is a phony and pretty bad at it, frankly.
cbear
I know it’s tough, but try and stay on era with the insults, bro.
ThymeZone
Bingo. Maybe the most succinct description of her chameleon behavior I’ve seen so far, anywhere.
Kudos.
Llelldorin
Of course they’re both on the table, but when the media jumped all over Clinton sounding a bit tired in the runup to New Hampshire as though she’d begun sobbing, it’s hard not to see outrageous sexism.
The fact that most of the arguments that we’ve made against Clinton have been substantive doesn’t make it impossible to construct sexist arguments against her, or to attack her on the basis of rank misogyny. The media (particularly early on) provided splendid examples of this early in the campaign.
Don’t get me wrong: I think Clinton has run a disastrously poor campaign. She’s fully earned her loss. (In fact, the rankest misogyny in the campaign–the media pile-on in the runup to New Hampshire–led to a huge and unexpected win for her campaign.)
We also tend not to see the worst of the sexism by morons on our side. They don’t usually hang out here–that wouldn’t be any fun. Instead, they act like anti-myiqs and troll talkleft and Taylor Marsh.
nightjar
So very true, I think.
zoe from pittsburgh
Additionally, where the hell does any feminist get off questioning other feminist’s feminist crudentials? I pretty much assume anyone who would do that is GOPer pretending to be a Hillary supporter or a complete and total moron. Take your pick. (I’m looking in your direction kwack.)
I’m an Obama supporter. I also happen to be a lesbian feminist– we’re the ones that your mother warned you about. (wink) One of my best friends is a black lesbian feminist– she can say hands down that she faces more discrimination as a black person than she does as a woman. That being said, I hate it when people play the victim card– it only gives the bigots more power.
myiq2xu
You’re just jealous cuz Hillary looks better in a dress than you do.
Notorious P.A.T.
Well of COURSE Hillary’s supporters count. Each of them counts as much as an Obama supporter. Unfortunately for her, Obama has MORE supporters than Hillary, which means he gets more votes, which means HE WINS. That is how democracy works. Why is this so hard for hard-core Hillaryites to comprehend?
If Walter Mondale was such a horrible, horrible candidate, *why* does Hillary Clinton have his vice president pick working for her campaign?
And John Kerry? Hmm, what does he have in common with anyone? Let’s see, a wonky, uninspiring centrist who voted to authorize invading Iraq for naked personal ambition and came to regret it, while running a clumsy, slow-to-adjust campaign. Gosh, that reminds me of someone, who could it be???
ThymeZone
Uh huh. Nothing sells the faux “sexism” charge better than a dose of hysterical bullshit.
Seriously. Great job. You just struck a big blow for sisters everywhere. Hear you roar. Etc.
{ rolls eyes until only whites are showing }
ThymeZone
Sez you. Some people will strongly disagree with you.
zoe from pittsburgh
When was the last time anyone saw Hillary wearing a dress? Nothing in her closet by pantsuits, not that there’s anything wrong with that.
On a more serious note, did you just try and slight someone you presume to be a man by saying that he wants to look good in a dress? (nice little anti-gay smear) Or did you presume that Thymezone is a woman and assert that she’s jealous and/or ugly?
You’re an AWESOME feminist, myiqis0. Way to go.
Notorious P.A.T.
If by “our side” you mean “Democrats”, there’s a good reason why we don’t see much sexism from them. The invisible and the nonexistant look a lot alike.
Let’s see, Randi Rhodes on one hand, hundreds of Republicans, pro-Republican pundits, and nonaffiliated jackasses on the other. Yup, both sides are equally responsible!
Conservatively Liberal
Holee sheet! These pics of Obama’s rally in Portland are unbelievable!
This is ‘rock star’ appeal. People don’t come out for politicians like this unless they have the desire to do so. This has to be depressing for the wingnuts to see what they are up against. This is why they want to knock him out of the primary and help Hillary take it.
Obama and the Democratic party are going to clean up shop this fall, and these supporters are going to remind them that they are obliged to do so. Politics as usual are turning off most voters. People are tired of the divisiveness in this country and want it to end. Hillary Clinton and John McCain represent the past and with them, the past is our future.
Obama represents change, and end to the politics of the past. These people know it, and they are there to say that they like it.
ThymeZone
Oh dear, this laughter has caused me to spit my iced coffee onto the calico cat.
Honey, Thymezone is a persona, a fictional character. A male character, actually, written by one or more persons who must remain nameless and faceless to you.
Thymezone has no actual physical appearance, but if you must have a visual image, try to imagine the Burger King, in a tuxedo, sitting on a chaise lounge at the Cà d’Zan.
KRK
Does that mean the “Dean scream” that wasn’t really a scream was all about man-hating?
The media see a weakness, or even an odd moment, and they pounce. It’s what they do. Claiming that no male candidate has ever been labeled over-wrought is bunk.
Llelldorin
Absurdly sexist Obama supporters are neither invisible nor nonexistent. I’ve seen them myself. They have about as much to do with the Obama campaign as myiq and kwAwk have to do with the Clinton campaign–not a dammned thing (however much many Clinton supporters would LOVE to believe otherwise, since it would make her continued campaign a bold stand against misogyny instead of a pointless waste of time and resources).
Dude, who said anything about equally responsible? The Republicans are vastly worse. That doesn’t mean that every Democrat is a saint whose every utterance comes from a deep font of wisdom and tolerance.
zoe from pittsburgh
I just spit wine on the dog– thankfully it was white and not red. (grin)
Cain
Ain’t oregon great? So, I handled crowd control as a volunteer for the portland event. It was one hell of a trip. When that line started queuing up we were snaking them through the city trying to get a handle on it, it was insane how fast things got blocked out. I would estimate it was moving a block every 5 minutes. As I understand it, the line got as far as 32 blocks until they finally let the gates open.
I couldn’t see the end of the damn line. I was waving people through continously from 12:30 – 2:30 and people were coming from EVERYWHERE. Crowds of people coming from over the bridge, from every which way.. it was fantastic.
But that wasn’t what was fucking awesome. It’s the people. They were fired up, they were patient, they took direction when I asked them to stop to let traffic go and I didn’t hear single curse word, complaint or rude comment, everybody was really happy and joking with me and I was joking back. I’ve had people come up thanking me for volunteering and telling me that I was doing a great job with pats on the back. It was just such a positive experience. No whining or anything.
When we started our preparations the day before, it was the same thing. The volunteers just did stuff, no whining nothing. Someone from the national team even commented that nobody whined or complained. Oregonians are classiest bunch of people you’ll ever meet. When Barack appreciated how much Clinton ran a good campaign, there were no boos, but polite applause. That’s total class, man.
I’m fired up about the MUP, and I wanted to help. But in helping I discovered something about my fellow americans in this state and I’m proud. DAMN proud. We KICK ASS.
Sorry, if my message is a bit garbled, I’ve been standing since 7 this morning and I’ve had no break or anything to eat till 6:00pm. But I got a big ol’ smile on my face, you can believe that.
GO MUP and Go Oregon!
cain
Conservatively Liberal
You ought to write a book about your experiences. Be sure to send Bush a copy, because I head that he likes goats too.
nightjar
Well, nightjar is real I tell you, reaaaaaaaaaal. I’m Melting, meltiiiii…….
KRK
Pssst, Cain. Think of something bad about Oregon to mention or your population density may sky-rocket.
ThymeZone
Yes, please save the Merlot for the Irish Setter.
Lynne
Libby,
I read both posts you referred to. While a “Hillary specific” claim might be an appropriate spin for comments coming from the right, what about some of the most offensive, which have come from media talking heads most closely associated with the left. Can you imagine their reaction if someone wondered whether Barack Obama liked Ripple or Colt 44 better? Or when Michelle Obama would share her recipe for fried chitlins, like Hillary gave out her cookie recipe? Outrage would abound all around.
Steve Cohen, my own Congressman, when asked by a local reporter about Hillary’s fight for the nomination, said “Glenn Close should have stayed in that tub.” Wow. Of course, given that his main opponent in the Democratic Primary is a woman, he started backtracking immediately after the comment came out and has since apologized, for reasons of obvious political expediency. This is the same man that was affronted when Harold Ford, Jr.’s crazy brothers said a Jew and a white man couldn’t represent the 9th Congressional district – that only a black could.
Congressman Cohen had a townhall meeting in Memphis this week. Unfortunately, I was out of town and could not attend. I really wanted to go, just so I could ask him in what political sphere was that comment in any way appropriate. I think Nikki Tinker may have picked up a few votes from that one, from the reactions of some of the women I’ve talked to.
While racism is simply wrong on its face, sexism should be equally anathema to all. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be, and that makes me very sad for my very bright and capable daughter and others like her.
Davis X. Machina
Gotta go up a diopter on the reading glasses, or two points on the font. I looked quickly and saw “My friends, I did not have sexual relations with that rolltop.”
I’m open-minded, but sex with office furniture. Eeech.
(Sex on office furniture, now….)
Cain
Well, you know these guys don’t wear deoderant.. so 75K was well.. that haze you saw? Yeah.. ugh.
cain
Ninerdave
I do, too bad I’m the wrong gender.
Llelldorin
Of course it is. That doesn’t mean the particular way they pounced on Clinton wasn’t sexist as all hell.
The media plays into easy narratives. It was easy to portray Dean as demented, because he was running an insurgent campaign that had attracted a lot of support from younger voters (“he’s a demented cult leader” is a very easy trope). It was easy to portray Clinton as “weeping,” because that’s an easy trope to throw at a woman. The fact that they used that trope is sexism, even though they’d do something equally obnoxious to a male candidate.
ThymeZone
We’re progressives. There is no wrong gender.
There are only ill-fitting man-bras.
ThymeZone
Exactlamenteee.
Male candidates tear up all the time, get verklempt … and nobody says anything. The media just look the other way.
But let a woman do it just once, and Whoopee-Ti-Yi-Oh, Get Along Little Dogie! They are on it like a fly on a liverwurst cracker.
It just isn’t fair.
jake
Most days I think my chances of living to see a U.S. President who isn’t a Caucasian male range from zero to absolute zero.
Then I see pictures like that and I think I need to adopt STAT so I can bore my grandkids with stories about the days when all presidents were Caucasian males.
They won’t believe me of course, and they’ll roll their eyes at senile old gramps and go back to listening to their iMPlants but that will be just fine by me.
Thanks for the report cain.
Davis X. Machina
Tell that to President Ed Muskie.
zoe from pittsburgh
I was still a Hillary supporter during her “weeping” moment and even at the time I thought it was odd and uncomfortable. Not because she’s a woman or because there is anything wrong with being emotional, but because Hillary has been through ENORMOUSLY HUMILIATING SHIT and has never shed a tear in public before.
I think the reason the MSM was so obsessed with Hillary’s “weeping” was that it completely defied her public persona as a tough-as-nails, iron-willed person. Also, I don’t remember much criticism of her for it, if anything the MSM’s spin on it was that she was showing her “womanly” side and it helped voters relate to her because her image has always been so tough and self-possessed. That’s just my 2 cents.
cbear
Good work, cain.
Conservatively Liberal
This:
is from Hillaryis44, and it is a members response to a guy known as ‘Universal’. Universal is one of two brothers who are pushing the ‘vote McCain’ meme if Obama wins the primary. Universal is not just a commenter, but is trying to lead opinion with his exhortations about how Hillary is being victimized, and that Obama and his supporters have to be made to pay for it this fall by their voting for McCain.
What is interesting about the two brothers Villarreal is that Universal’s brother is an ardent Ron Paul supporter. He has his own Ron Paul for President video clips up at AsterPix, under the user name “asterbot88”. Now this brother loves his ‘real’ name so much he uses it everywhere he posts, except at AsterPix. I wonder why. Both brothers names are on a video series they did on the “Housing Bubble – (#2 of 4)” credits that they have posted there. In looking in to these brothers, I have found that they tend to exaggerate things a bit (in their favor), to put it lightly, and that the two of them are like peas in a pod. Ron Paul Pod People, so to say.
Now why would a Ron Paul supporter be for Hillary? Ask yourself that question.
Now why did I look into Universal? Ever heard of him? He was the guy who made the Rev. Wright/planes crashing in to the twin towers video that looped over and over endlessly. But that in itself was not enough to interest me, but his god-awful endless screeds against Obama at NQ, MyDD, Hillaryis44 and just about everywhere he could post them is what caught my eye. There was more than met the eye with this guy, and I decided to see what I could find. It was easy, because these two post online like posting sluts. They love the sound of their voices so much that they can’t shut up for two seconds.
Universal is a ratfucker, of that I have little doubt. Same with his brother, who also happens to be proud of the work that Rush’s Operation Chaos is doing to support Hillary. But these ratfuckers are Ron Paul models.
Look for yourself if you want, they made it easy to learn about them as they like to tell the world how great they are…lol.
Paul F. Villarreal AKA “RokSki” AKA “Universal”
John D. Villarreal AKA “John D. Villarreal, Esq” AKA “asterbot88”
They are quite the pair, and they have quite the following of people that can’t stand them one bit.
For a laugh, read up on a posting about John’s bio at DealBreaker, and be sure to read the comments, especially the next to the last one. It is a frank assessment of John by someone I think is the DealBreaker site admin, “Deal Breaker”.
ThymeZone
Oh, Davis, see, now you are going to burst Lledbelly’s bubble.
See, the faux victim thing is comforting at times like these.
It has never ocurred to any of these hand-wringers that the media “jumped on” Hillary’s choked-up-moment just because it was so patently, obviously, horrifyingly planned and phony. I need an airsick bag just to imagine it.
Luckily I keep one right here by the computer, in case I accidentally come across a Wire(c) rerun while websurfing.
TenguPhule
Is it fucking September yet?
Can we start the Republican firing squad instead of the circular Democratic one?
ThymeZone
No, but it is May, and not March, as one might thing from your post.
Circular Dem firing squad? Did you see the Portland rally thing? Have you listened to Mister Magoo’s speeches this week? He is going to announce in 2013 that The Surge Is Working. And he won’t be talking about his reaction to the Milk of Magnesia diet that the White House physicians will have him on.
Try to strong up, my brother.
Cathy in Portland
I didn’t make it to today’s rally in Portland, but I went to the March rally, showing up at 6:30 a.m. And damn, these are amazing events. The energy is palpable. I saw Bobby Kennedy in ’68 when he was running, when I was in college. HUGELY memorable events. My sister volunteered for Obama, house party, so we could monitor their organizational skills. I’ve worked on campaigns at the gubernatorial, congressional, senate and mayorial levels, primarily in issues and communications. (no experience with presidential campaigns), and I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THEIR ORGANIZATIONAL SKILLS. They have built a powerful and effective organization EXTERNAL to the existing Democratic party apparatus, which has been largely controlled by the Clintons… that’s an audacious concept. The Obama campaign is demonstrably smart, energetic and strategic. It’s a huge mistake to underestimate them, as the Clinton’s have learned. I literally cried when I decided that I couldn’t vote for Hillary, I still tear up about it… but look at the choice… I want the BEST CHANCE for America… and he and his team are our best chance… no guarantees… but he is our best shot at a better America… Si se puede.
Llelldorin
It didn’t strike me as fake, or even hugely remarkable. Both candidates were running on empty at the time–the schedule leading up to Super Tuesday was brutal. Obama could barely speak–he’d lost his voice running a completely insane schedule of speaking engagements. Clinton looked like she was on her feet through a combination of strong coffee and necromancy.
She didn’t even really “choke up”–she just sounded exhausted, to my ear. That the media pounced on that as though she’d broken down in tears was outrageous. (Yes, they’d attack any candidate who actually started sobbing on the campaign trail. It’s the fact that she did no such thing that struck me as outrageous.)
Why exactly am I coming in for attacks here? I’m not claiming that Clinton lost due to misogyny (indeed, the reaction to it actually helped her win NH!), but that to claim that she never, ever, ever encountered any is simply silly.
zoe from pittsburgh
Speaking of McCain’s health– did he ever get around to releasing his medical records? I know he kept pushing back the date, last time I heard he was supposed to release them in mid-April but I never heard any follow up about it. He’s been oddly dragging his feet this time around (unlike in 2000 when he gave them to people before they even asked) and he has had cancer since 2000.
The only reason I think it matters is I have a tin-hat theory about how they’re the key to the GOP’s “Plan B”– if his candidacy becomes too much of a joke he can say he has to drop out for “medical reasons” and then they can put a ringer in, like Mitt.
Llelldorin
And there’s really no need to worry–the circular firing squad will straighten out right quick.
Obama is a remarkable candidate, and McCain’s running on the worst record imaginable. The “lost his bearings” quip was pitch-perfect, and presents a narrative that doesn’t force the media to actually renounce their former McCain-worship–they can turn it into a sad tale of a once-good man whose ambition (and, unstated by made quite clear, advancing age) finally drove him to the dark side. It’s nonsense, of course–McCain and the dark side have a relationship of long standing–but it doesn’t force the media to admit that they were wrong, and it’s such a good story that it’ll play very well indeed.
Dennis - SGMM
They chose a receptive audience. You notive they aren’t peddling that stuff here.
“You can’t cheat an honest man.”
Dennis - SGMM
“notive”? Clearly I need another beer.
soybean eater
I can’t wait for June to get here and end this thing. I’ve never seen a more hardheaded person than HRC. I did support Obama. Now it seems all kinds of nasty bugs are crawling out of the woodwork at every turn to try to poison the man and his message. And I don’t mean sexist bugs (although they seem to have also joined the fray). These bugs keep finding “facts” that I can’t seem to find anywhere except on HRC websites, and yet they are still screaming bloody murder. Today HRC says she has the most popular votes (if you throw out the caucus states she lost and added Mich and Fla) but she agreed to the Mich.-Fla. deal before it was ever an issue when she thought she had the nomination sewn up. Now all hell breaks loose about voters not being treated fairly. And no one calls this sneaky ass woman out on it. I know in a marriage women make the rules and change them once us guys figure them out (old joke, I know) but this is for POTUS, not some freaking joke. How can she get away with this kind of shit. If Obama tried this she would be kicking his ass about it.
Please June, get here soon before this turns into a shit storm. All the Clintons know how to do is run for office. And you can bet your ass they will never stop. Win, lose or draw. What a bunch of ass****. I heard Clinton’s daughter will be running in 2030, damn. just kidding.
One more really pissed off American citizen here. These people are ruining my birthday month, damnit.
ThymeZone
Well, where do you normally go for them?
empty
I think what Lynne was saying and what what Marie Cocco was lamenting was the lack of pushback from the democrats on the sexist shit that was slung at Clinton (Prophylactic: And no that does not mean Clinton should win and No it does not mean that Obama is a bad person). The lack of such pushback apart from what it says about the state of “progressives” in the Democratic party was also a strategic mistake. By giving up on media critique the Democrats are now more vulnerable to shit like this: (from Digby)
ThymeZone
David Broder couldn’t have written it better.
Misogyny has had zero effect on this primary. Any evidence you have to the contrary should be submitted forthwith.
Evidence, not proof by assertion.
Lynne
Seeing the Hillary “weeping” meme repeated here is sad. I’ve seen the tape numerous times and the only thing I saw was an exhausted candidate whose voice broke slightly when asked by a supporter how she did it day in and day out. I guess the media narrative now drives what is or is not true.
What is even sadder is the facebook “bumpersticker” my seventeen year old son just received from one of his friends. It was a photo of Hillary with the word CUNT emblazoned in huge letters across the background. Sadder than that, he didn’t understand why I found it so offensive. Adding to the misery is that the friend sending it was a girl! Do young women today really find that word acceptable? At 50, am I really that old and out of it? To me, it’s one of the most offensive and derogatory words in the English language and I recoil when I hear it.
When I asked him how he would react if someone called his sister that, he said he’d beat the crap out of them. When asked why, his response was that no one could say that about his sister. I told him that it’s not acceptable to say that about ANY woman. He removed the bumpersticker from his profile and marked it as offensive, but I suspect he may have done it only to please me. Sigh.
Cain
There were plenty of Ron Paul supporters at the event though. Most of us was like “wtf, these people can’t vote for your candidate dude.. it’s over.”
Actually, I’ve seen more ron Paul banners and stuff than Obama or Hillary and I’ve seen more Hillary banners than Obama at least in my part of town. I’m probably the only person who has any political sign up in my neighborhood.
(thanks guys.. it was a great event and it felt good to be part of something historic.. I thank you guys for putting the spirit of volunteering in me. I’ll be doing this for the GE too)
cain
ThymeZone
Sorry, but “shit like this” means, to me, that someone is seriously asserting that Monica Fucking Crowley actually has any effect on anyone anywhere. That what she says or thinks is important to anyone, including her.
Give me a fucking break. The Dems’ fortunes in 2008 are not “vulnerable” to Monica Crowley.
Llelldorin
Hmmm… let me think! Usually if I’m in the mood to be denounced, I head over to a Republican site, where I politely point out that they’re factually wrong until I get banned or ignored.
That can be oddly entertaining, particularly when I’m midway through a particularly good bottle of wine. (Californian, here, and willing to sacrifice my liver for the good of our state industries as needed.)
Conservatively Liberal
So somewhere in all of the Portland event pictures and videos is our guy cain, eh? Time to play “Where’s Waldo’? ;)
Awesome work cain, and I bet it was a blast to be there at a history making political rally. If it wasn’t a 600mile round trip, we would have been there too.
/jealous
Thanks for the great job! :D
ThymeZone
Oh lord, here we go with the c-word stories.
And on the same day, we have 75k people show up to hear Barack at a rally, and a poster in here wringing his hands that Monica Crowley called him a name.
This is a place where you can say pretty much anything. Why waste that opportunity with this kind of crap material?
Lynne
Empty has it exactly right.
It doesn’t matter whether you care for the candidate or not. It’s simply a case of right or wrong. The talking heads are afraid to say something that could possibly be construed as racially derogatory, but if it is something denigrating to women, well, what’s the problem? You gals are just being too sensitive. It must be that time of the month or something. Now get back inside and fix my breakfast, bitch. And while your at it, iron my shirt.
Cain
BTW it was telling that our DEMOCRATIC governor didn’t show up to the rally. He was too busy showing the Clintons around. Our two democratic past governors including my favorite Kitzhaber showed up.
I do like Kulongoski, but if 75K people are going to show up for a rally, and you’re not there, that doesn’t seem particularly smart. Especially, when the alternative is he’s probably visiting libraries with Bill and Chelsea. (I wouldn’t mind meeting Chelsea, I think she’s cool)
That said, I admire that he sticks to his convictions. But I’m still going to kick his ass.
cain
Lynne
ThymeZone – If I saw your picture with the word PRICK across the background, I would be just as offended.
ThymeZone
Uh, the guy declared for Clinton in December, why would he show up at an Obama rally?
In politics, when you endorse a candidate, you don’t appear at her opponent’s rallies.
Okay, it’s Oregon … maybe you do?
Still, I do buy Tillamook cheese.
ThymeZone
Not me. It would indicate that people are finally starting to like me.
Lynne
As warm and fuzzy as you are, I find that difficult to believe!
ThymeZone
:)
nightjar
IN 2006, the goopers tried all the same nasty little tricks in congressional races that have worked in the past for them and the voters handed it back to them along with their asses. Unless wingnuts begin addressing real issues this time it will be a slaughter in November. When Obama no longer has to walk on eggshells in dealing with Clinton and her hysterical supporters, he will begin to systematically dismantle MCcain and the wingnut smear machine. And he’ll do it with smarts and organization and there will be nothing left of the conservative movement but a puddle of piss on the floor.
ThymeZone
nightjar = right on
(Having said that, might I say, your handle is mildly disturbing).
Cain
Yep. If you had come, I was a fairly public. I was the guy shouting on 2nd and Main St telling people where the beginning of the line was and moving people down 2nd towards the event. You wouldn’t have found me in the crowd though :-)
yeah, too bad.. we could have hooked up.. there is always the general election! He’ll be back.
cain
Conservatively Liberal
Improved for clarity.
ThymeZone
And hygiene!
Cain
Nah, you’re right. He probably wouldn’t have shown up. I was hoping he would have changed his mind after seeing what the hell he missed. But we aren’t that wacked…
I go to Tillamook at least a couple times a year, and in the 12 years I’ve lived here I have never visited the factory. I like their ice cream and yoghurt. Their cheese is alright.
cain
nightjar
LOL. Yes, and it keeps people guessing, which is how it should be.
empty
Yeah and the Dem’s fortunes in 2000 were not “vulnerable” to Ceci Connolly and Kit Seelye. Grow the fuck up TZ.
empty
Is it because of this? (from Wikipedia)
ThymeZone
Their sharp and extra sharp cheddars are my favorite cheddars as far as major brands go. I went to Tillamook and visited the factory, it was pretty interesting.
That Oregon coast is about as good as it gets in August when you are escaping the desert and on vacation.
If I could pick anywhere in the US to live, I think it would be Vancouver, WA. It’s near Portland but seems a little cheaper. And I am nothing, if not cheap.
ThymeZone
Oh christ in a mayonnaise jar, you idiot. This is not 2000, and Barack Obama is not Al Gore or John Kerry.
Show a spine for crissakes. Monica Fucking Crowley? You are afraid of Monica Fucking Crowley, and you are telling me to grow up?
Why don’t you shut up with your whiny bullshit?
empty
TZ. You need to work a bit on this persona. It is turning into a complete asshole.
Conservatively Liberal
Fixed.
nightjar
Once they were, But now we call Clinton supporters goatsuckers from their mistaken belief they won.
ThymeZone
Hey, it’s a work in progress.
Come on, man. Monica FUCKING CROWLEY?
Just admit that you are full of shit, and move on.
Don’t start with me. You aren’t up to it, and even if you were, this isn’t the topic you want to do argue with me about. Trust me.
Monica FUCKING CROWLEY?
This is a realignment year in politics and you are writing about Monica FUCKING CROWLEY?
HAVE.YOU.LOST.YOUR.MIND?
Conservatively Liberal
Y.E.S.
cbear
Good Lord, lady. I know you urgently, urgently want to have a meaningful and heartfelt conversation with everybody here concerning the horribly unfair state of gender relations in this country and how rampant sexism has almost certainly influenced this election cycle, and your poor son, and your earlier life as an aspiring young female executive, and on and on and on….
And please forgive me because I’m sure you’re a very earnest and caring and sincere person, but would you PLEASE JUST STOP.
We get it, you made your point, you may even be right, but how many more freaking times are you going to keep incessantly hammering at the same freaking subject???
Fer Chrissakes, try something different—tell a story, post a link to a funny video, make a joke, ANYTHING!
Here, try this—learn a funny dick joke and tell it to all your friends. You’ll laugh, they’ll laugh, everybody will enjoy a moments respite from the daily horror that they’re lives have become in this shitty, unfair world.
I’ll even start you off:
Q: Why do guys name their dicks?
A: Because they don’t want a total stranger making 90% of their decisions for them.
There, isn’t that funny. Go ahead, laugh at it—none of us guys will be offended and you can use it with your friends down at the coffee shop, or wherever it is you hang out, and you don’t even have to give me credit for it. Pretend its your own. Just please, please move on to something else.
OK?
nightjar
His mind is EMPTY.
ThymeZone
Call me when Time Magazine’s cover says
Until then, I must leave this discussion to others.
Call me lobotomized, but I refuse to cower in the basement for fear that Monica FUCKING CROWLEY has called Barack a Girly Man.
We don’t wither under schoolyard taunts. We just keep plugging away at our rallies and our little 75k turnouts and we stay strong.
Good night all. Enjoyed the repartee.
ThymeZone
LOL
Lynne
OK cbear, here’s the one my lovely mother-in-law emailed me the other day:
Why has Washington, D.C. seen a huge increase in hunting license applications? Because a coon and a beaver are running for President.
You don’t even have to give me credit for it. Pretend it’s your own.
cbear
Does anyone in your family have an actual sense of humor? If so, please let them take over commenting duties for a day or so.
Everyone here will thank you for it.
Conservatively Liberal
That you consider your mother in law to be ‘lovely’ after receiving that so-called joke from her tells me that your mother in law and you both have a twisted kind of outlook on life.
Now what would be the appropriate words to describe that twisted view? Hmm…
Lynne
My mother-in-law doesn’t have a sense of humor – she’s just an out and out racist. I generally have a pretty good sense of humor, just not when women are being belittled. Maybe it’s because I want my daughter to have the same opportunities as my son. Heck, maybe it’s just because I have ovaries.
ThymeZone’s snark is funny and makes me laugh. Yours doesn’t. I guess it’s my lack of humor that colors my opinion.
Lynne
The “lovely” was sarcasm, which obviously did not translate.
Conservatively Liberal
And your disconnect with her using the term ‘beaver’ to describe (I am guessing here) Hillary? If this is what she meant, doesn’t her apparent misogyny bother you? Or is it ok because she is a woman?
Conservatively Liberal
Oh, and regarding this:
We have a daughter and son too, and we want both of them to have the same opportunities in life, whatever their goals are. Our daughter is voting for her first president this year, and she has chosen Obama too. She already knows that Hillary is the past, and she wants nothing to do with it.
Smart kid. Of course, I am a bit biased, but I can live with that.
Rome Again
She obviously doesn’t get it.
I also notice that while she says the c word is abhorrent, she had no trouble posting it here. I found that particularly offensive. Who is the one creating the mysogyny here?
Yes, it is funny. Learn from it. If you think he’s funny here, you should see how much better he is in person, but unless you improve that humor thing you’re struggling with, I doubt you’ll ever get to experience it. That’s okay, I’ll keep that wonderful privelege for myself.
Rome Again
I’m still waiting for kwAwkward to tell me how Hillary is going to keep herself financially afloat. I gave the question several hours to be answered, I don’t see one. The question must have created a bit of a panic, I guess.
cbear
Lynne–
Do you actually not realize that virtually everthing you have ever posted at BJ, at least everything I have ever read by you, is on the exact same subject? Doesn’t it ever get tiresome, even for you?
You’re obviously an intelligent and well-read person—don’t you have anything else to talk about, other than your perceptions of sexism and misogyny in America?
I’m honestly trying not to be too harsh, but it’s like listening to someone trying to tell you, endlessly, about their faith in Jesus.
cbear
Hey Asti, I didn’t realize, until today, that Rome was your old nic and that you had gone back to it. Nice to see you.
Conservatively Liberal
kwAwkkrOck is just that, a crock of crap. krOck’s hangup is race; in their opinion, Hillary and Obama are about equal, and since that is the case then it is easy to see that the reason AA’s have voted for Obama in the numbers they have is because they are racist. Of course, the white voters who are voting for Hillary are not racist, umm, because they’re white!That’s supposed to make sense, but that is just a krOck of it.
Rome Again
ty cbear. It’s nice to be back in my old skin :)
Conservatively Liberal
Time to go watch the Squidbillies. Gotta get my inner redneck on. ;)
Conservatively Liberal
Oops, the Squidbillies aren’t on until 12:15, and though I am a guitar player, I can’t stand Metalocalypse. Guess I can go to Adult Swim and watch the Shin Chan clip I missed last night.
I never knew you were Asti RA, you devil you…lol!
cain
Asti is Rome Again? And here I thought she lit out of here due to being sick of the primaries. :-)
What CL said!
cain
Rome Again
I kept the same theme (cities in Italy), it was easy to guess if you really cared to. ;)
But, being that John and so many others keep comparing our current world politics to that of Rome, I just couldn’t keep the old name away any longer.
cbear
What a curious election this has become.
I’m a 49-yr-old white guy from the South (Florida) who has liked, admired, and supported Hillary Clinton since 1991. I was proud to have a strong, independent woman in the White House as an, in my view, equal partner to her husband.
Now, I’m supporting the black guy.
I can’t figure out whether I was a rascist before, or a sexist now. In other words—I’m not sure whether to shit or go blind.
Rome Again
cain, I did light out of here due to being sick of the Clinton trainwreck. I’ve been spending a lot of time playing on a game site I used to go to quite often, and TZ spends a lot of time with me there too. He’s been kinda sparse lately too, huh? He never liked to play games before, I got him hooked. :)
cbear
Is the Church Lady gone? Cn we tell some really dirty jokes now?
Conservatively Liberal
Do both, and then you don’t have to see the mess you made. ;)
Slow loading of Shin Chan from AS tonight, they must be busy. I love the remake of it because it is full of adult themed humor and innuendo. Georgie is a Reagan type, Shin is an exhibitionist, their parents are crazy (along with the rest of the adults), there is a rich spoiled girl with her own body guard.
Well, off to see the Squidbillies. No need to buffer that…lol!
RA, the only Italian things I know are pizza, spaghetti and the like. Oh, and Asti Spumante! ;)
Rome Again
Well, I never liked Hillary all that much (I always saw her as too close to the corporations), and after Bill started hanging out with Bush 41, I got a bad taste in my mouth, so going into this election I knew I didn’t want her to be the nominee. I’m so glad she’s screwed up her campaign so tremendously, and without any help from me at all ;).
I used to be in South FL (Naples), now in Phoenix and I’m a white woman supporting a black man and feeling very satisfied in my decision.
cbear
The question has to be asked: Is there anyone funnier than Tbogg on the intertubes?
I say no.
Rome Again
You know, it just occurred to me the reason why I could support Bill and not HIllary. After Bill left the White House, the two of them go too rich, and I just had a really hard time telling myself she was really for the people (AUMF was a big part of that decision to me, she kept biting into the GOP cookie AFAIC)and I never saw her as the down to earth populist in her campaign that I saw in Bill’s townhall meetings. Bill spoke to the people (whether he lead that way is up for debate, but he sold me in his campaign) and Hillary just doesn’t sell me the way her husband did. Barack sells me… he sells me hope, the same thing I was trying to buy from Clinton. I don’t see hope in Hillary’s campaign, I see equivocation, tricks and lots of corporate sympathy.
cbear
and Kyl-Lieberman, and CinC threshold, and “obliterate Iran”, etc.
see above.
Brachiator
Very well said.
But so what?
The issue isn’t sexism in the campaign, but the entirely phony issue that seeks to hold Obama and his supporters, or the Democratic Party, or somebody, especially responsible for rejecting and denouncing expressions of sexism by talking heads, people totally unconnected with either candidate’s campaign and the general public.
Nobody is going to halt the primary campaign or the general election to hold a consciousness raising session to purge the nation of bad thoughts.
Richard Scaife was responsible for some of the most reprehensible, vicious and sexist attacks on Hillary Clinton and equally repellent attacks on her husband. Did Senator Clinton shame him or declare that he and his newspapers should be shunned? No. She cozied up to him and her supporters cooed with delight that she so disarmed a former enemy. Did this magically negate all the vicious crap that went on before, crap that is still spewed out by Clinton haters?
Both Senator Clinton and Senator Obama have largely taken the more practical approach of trying to win over voters rather than trying to play the pointless activist game of shaming “bad” media people and others who say mean things about the candidates.
Shaming the media or voters because they fail some racial or gender ideological purity test is not going to change a single vote.
And much of this stuff is a tiresome distraction. The worst conservative pundits regularly spew racist and sexist filth against Obama and Clinton equally, and with impunity. It is sad, but typical, that people filter out the slurs that they don’t care about, and then pretend to be shocked, outraged and discouraged over the remainder.
And unfortunately, perhaps because they are still behind and trying to make a case for their candidates, some (obviously not all) Senator Clinton supporters are still playing a sad game in which any dig against their candidate is sexist, but any attacks that come from the Clinton camp are either misunderstood or another demonstration that Obama is just too thin-skinned to be able to withstand the GOP Attack Machine (patent pending).
You can’t trot out Bill Clinton to tell everyone to “chill out” and to remind everyone how rough and tumble political campaigning by definition has to be, and then complain that you don’t like the tone of attacks against Senator Clinton., especially when those attacks have absolutely nothing to do with the Obama campaign.
Well, you can, but no one should take you seriously.
Conservatively Liberal
With her AUMF vote, it became clear to me that Hillary was trying to look as tough as she could, knowing that she would be running for president in the future. Plus she could not risk coming out on the wrong side of history, and she probably thought that Bush would easily win the war and all would be well for her future.
I remember screaming at the TV that October in 2002, calling the ‘yea’ votes from the Democrats ‘chickenshit’. Bush and the neo-cons boxed them in with the vote right before the election, and with all of the heat over 9-11, some Democrats were too chicken to vote their conviction and instead took the easy way out.
When this primary season was getting started, I could see that there was a possibility that Hillary would get stopped by Obama on Super Tuesday. If that happened, I knew all hell would break loose. Hillary was expecting a cake walk, and it was anything but one.
Her campaign was based on the premise that the voters would crown her the winner, and there was no Plan B. They blew their bankroll on themselves and wasted it many other ways (half a million in a month for parking?!), and when the major wins for her did not materialize on Super Tuesday, her campaign went in to panic mode.
Hillary was poorly served by those she surrounded herself with, and all she can do is point her finger at Obama and his supporters and blame them for winning.
Sad.
Koz
Let’s stipulate that “Iron my Shirt” isn’t that big a deal, along with lapel pins or whatever.
But at this point, Obama needs to come up with some justification for his candidacy beyond indulging the narcissism of his supporters. This will be probably be extreme for most of you, but I really can’t see any reason why we should suppose that he’d be any better as President than George W. Bush.
Conservatively Liberal
Nope. Try again.
/yawn
Conservatively Liberal
Meltdown at Taylor Marsh noted over at Meet the Hill Hags; hard core Clintonistas are looking for new homes.
Time to put out the “No Vacancy” sign here. ;)
Brachiator
This is just too damned easy. So far, every policy position put forth by Obama has been more nuanced and more reasonable than anything ever uttered by Bush.
On the other hand, McCain has already admitted that he doesn’t know much about economic matters. So what the hell has he been doing in all those years in the Senate? His gas tax holiday plan, appropriated by Blue Collar Momma Hillary Clinton, has been blasted by everyone with half a brain.
McCain has decided to wear as an anchor, both the Bush Iraq military policy and Bush tax policy. Unless the Democrats are totally inept, this alone should sink the McCain candidacy.
Senator Clinton decided to base her “Day One” campaign on the lie that she had been both co-governor of Arkansas and co-president of the United States. Just as Bush claimed that he absorbed how to be president by sitting on his daddy’s knee, Senator Clinton claimed that she was somehow the Apprentice-in-Chief just because she was living in the White House.
On top of this, Bush supporters floated the nonsense that even if Bush was not quite up to speed on some matters, he had Condi to tutor him, and old hands like Rumsfeld and Cheney to provide guidance. Instead, all these supposedly seasoned hands have been disasters.
Both Bush’s claim and Senator Clinton’s claim are ridiculous.
On top of this, Senator Clinton’s primary campaign was inept, cynical, and duplicitous, and never proved that she was the best candidate for the nomination.
By any reasonable measure, it’s game, set, and match for Obama.
Feel free to continue underestimating him.
Chuck Butcher
There is Portland and then there are places like Pendleton, OR. A funny thing happened out in E OR, cowboy country – seriously home of the world famous Pendleton Roundup rodeo – a couple thousand almost all white people went crazy for Obama. Since I was seated 4th row center, about 12 feet from him I’m pretty sure it was actually Obama. yep, this is Rep Greg Walden (R) OR 2CD country.
anyhow I posted about it with some pictures, this was shortly after the Portland blow out.
2 thousand people left through 2 doors, politely, no pushing, no cars honking from exits, no attitudes, just friendly polite behavior – all the city cops, sheriffs, state troopers were smiling, hell even the Secret Service looked calm.
No, please don’t move here unless you’re prepared to act like that.
Conservatively Liberal
Now if he would only come to Brookings!!! Please! :)
Conservatively Liberal
Hmm, WP swallowed my exclamation points after Brookings.
Damn you Scott Beauchamp!
Xenos
Comes down to facts. Clinton hired Mark Penn, and kept on relying on hime after Feb. 5, even though it was the strategist who screwed up, not the managers who she did fire.
Fail.
For extra points, Penn was an odious, amoral cretin who had no loyalty to the guiding ethics and principles of the political party that Clinton aspired to lead. The theory that the poltical gamesmanship is a proxy for demonstrating leadership is generally bogus, but it has been true in this case. I do not want the person responsible for Clinton’s campaign in the office of the President.
bago
Yeah, the NW is pretty chill. Like we had a WTO riot and only managed to bbreak some windows and burn a dumpster.
Suddenlt makes the MJ policy make sense.
Notorious P.A.T.
High Standards at the Washington Post Op-Ed page
* * *
As opposed to all the pushback from Clinton against the racist crap that has been slung at Obama.
Napoleon
Breaking news!, Hillary is a hypocrite and really hasn’t been fully vetted. Who would have thunk it?
rachel
Well…
Once there was a man who was dead set on marrying a virgin, but he wasn’t sure how to tell whether the women he dated were experienced or not. Finally, he hit on the perfect idea for a test: When he persuaded a lady to do the deed with him, he’d ask her “What’s this?” after he undressed. If she answered, “It’s a cock!” then he’d know she was too experienced to meet his high standards. It was not easy to find a virgin. In fact this situation went on for some time until one day he met a beautiful young woman who giggled and said, “It’s a peepee!” That was it. He’d proposed the next day, and she accepted. It seemed to take forever until the wedding night, but at last our hero took his bride to bed, eager to teach her everything about sex.
“What’s this?” he asked her again.
“I told you, it’s a peepee!”
“No, this is a cock!”
“Tee-hee! No, silly! A cock is all thick and thi-i-i-s long!”
So tired of Obama v. Hillary squabbles.
cleek
so, to answer my question: no
John S.
I figured as much a few months back when she started going head-to-head with Sojourner in the Sexist Wars of ’08.
dslak
I once drove Sojourner from the field of battle, but the war was not won that day.
ksmiami
The thought also occured to me that Obama represents the American dream and McLame and Hillary both stifle it with cynicism and corruption. I could care less how many pieces of legislation have gotten through under Obama, but that he takes a nuanced and yet tough approach the the major geopolitical issues we are going to face in the next years. (Oil, labor competition, new industry dev, etc). Additionally, I think that Barack will tell the truth as opposed to poll testing everything (Hillary), or just pandering to the lowest common denominator and launching wars (McCain).
Richard Bottoms
Me too.
“Tee-hee! No, silly! A cock is black, all thick and thi-i-i-s long!”
Fixed.
dslak
Don’t buy into the “Obama hasn’t accomplished anything” schtick. It’s demonstrably false.
dslak
Richard Bottoms, you are clearly either a misogynist or a racist.
cleek
let’s go nutpicking on The Big Pink Stink!
awesome! BHO = 9/11 !
!
that’s right, Obama supporters are gonna KILL EVERYONE!
now that’s just pathetic
Libby Spencer
Sorry only have time for quick hit and run here and don’t know if someone answered this but Lynne, WHAT talking heads of the left? They’re aren’t any real lefties in the MSM, only a handful of fake ones like Joe Klein.
And spare me the KO remark on going into a closed room. I watched the vid and he just made an off the cuff, unfortunate reference. I saw no intended sexism there, just foot in mouth, slap yourself on the side of the head and think why the hell did I say that moment. If you’ve never blurted out anything that you realized afterward was lame and could be miscontrued, then more power to you. I have. And besides KO apologized immediately. And btw, I’m not a big fan of is or anything. I find him generally grating.
dslak
Whew! That’s a relief.
Dennis - SGMM
I only kill Clinton supporters for food – it’s not about politics.
Wilfred
hey who’s a fascist?
Punchy
This is great spoof. Faux ranting, use of real people’s names that no one actually knows, hyperbolic hysteria….it’s got it all.
Excellent work to whomever penned this.
Dennis - SGMM
Nuh uh! I hear that the Republicans have a tape of Obama promising to collectivize the workers once the dictatorship of the proletariat is established.
Conservatively Liberal
Yeah, that Ron Paul rat Universal (Villarreal) is a real piece of shit. He loves to bait the Hillary supporters with his anti-Obama rants, and some of them lap it up like kittens do milk. It doesn’t help that they have been primed for revolt by Hillary’s words against Obama and her party. They are wide open to being misled thanks to Hillary.
Good catch Napoleon. So Hillary excoriates Obama about lame ties to Ayers, Hillary actually defended Communists, draft dodgers and the Black Panthers? I think it is all fine and good, but if her argument against Obama is that the right will come after him for just knowing Ayers, what makes her think that the right won’t use these real associations in the fall against her?
Stones, meet glass house.
empty
I agree with most of what you say. But I don’t recall seeing anywhere where she “point[ed] her finger at Obama and his supporters and blame[d] them for winning.”
empty
if only.
Lynne
Referring to me as “church lady” is probably the most inappropriate moniker one could use. I’ve been in a church twice in the past three years, both times at Christmas, in deference to my mother, a very devout Catholic.
I know cbear is tired of my harping on it, but I think it was interesting that today’s issues of both the Times and the Post had articles dealing with perceived gender bias in this election. Making what is admittedly a sweeping generalization, I think that for most men, what might be a small, low buzz is more of a loud, honking horn for women. Again, I generalize only from my own perspective.
dslak
When they call you The Church Lady, this is what they’re referring to.
John Cole
I don’t think there is any question there has been a good bit of sexism this campaign. You would have to be willfully blind to miss it.
What I think is total bullshit, though, is trying to pin it on the Obama campaign. The Hillary nutcracker has been around since before Obama was a Senator, I would bet. Obama had nothing to do with the urinal cakes named for Hillary, he didn’t play JAY-Z at his rally, and on and on. Not to mention, Hillary PLAYED to the gender, repeatedly calling on the sisterhood to vote for her.
And that is what this video does- makes it look like all the attacks on Hillary are somehow Obama’s fault. Meanwhile, is Hillary required to apologize for racism? Why not? She is the one running around parroting the virtues of white voters? It was her supporter running around, every damned chance she got, yammering about Obama only being where he is because he is black.
In short, did Hillary get treated unfairly by some people- absolutely. Is that Obama’s fault? Of course not.
Lynne
John – Agreed.
ThymeZone
No, no sale.
First of all, I am not blind, so that’s just for the record. And I haven’t seen it. I have seen all sorts of snarky bullshit on the fringes and in Greater Bloggovia, but in the campaign? Whatever that is taken to mean by whoever is saying to to whomever is listening …. I haven’t seen it and whatever of it there is has not been significant.
However more to the point … the “charge” here has been Rampant Sexism and Misogyny. This charge is complete bullshit. When asked to produce evidence to support this idiotic claim, we get snippets of crazy from those fringes where crazy shit is always around, and is flung to an fro like mashed potatoes at a food fight. Means nothing.
The question of whether this crazy crap is “Obama’s fault” or for that matter anyone’s “fault” is just strawman nonsense.
Hillary isn’t losing because she is a woman, and Obama isn’t winning because he is black. This simple statement by itself makes about 2/3 of the posts on the topic of this campaign since February null, void, and moot. At least here at BJ. I haven’t visited the other oft-referenced crazy sites out there and have no plans to do so. If I want crazy shit, I can always call my relatives and ask them how they are doing, it’s quicker and crazier. And I don’t have to wait for WordPress to get rebooted six times a day.
Sexism? Yeah, practiced by women, who would vote for Hillary just because she is a woman, which is about the stupidest reason for choosing a candidate for president I ever heard.
John Cole
I am referring to a time period when I say “this campaign.”
There is no doubt Hillary has received a number of sexist barbs- hell from Chris Matthews alone.
empty
True.
Also true. Just like Clinton benefited from the Wright fiasco to some extent without in any way being responsible for it, Obama has benefited without in any way being responsible for all the sexist bullshit. Where the problem lies is in the lack of pushback in both these cases from the supposed leaders of the democratic party. But, I suppose that is about par for the course.
ThymeZone
A “sexist barb” from Matthews has an effect on a campaign?
Are you fucking kidding me?
Prove it. Show me the effects, show me the data, show me the correlation to any political outcome.
If I had to guess, or bet my own money, I’d wager that the measurable effect, if it exists, which I absolutely do not believe until I see the evidence, is that if would piss off some women, and thereby increase her vote count.
The converse requires me to believe that a snide remark by Chris Matthews takes votes away from Hillary Clinton to an extemt that matters, or can be measured. That’s just about the most asinine idea I’ve ever seen seriously advanced on these pages.
Prove me wrong. All the shrieking women, spoof women, empties and myiqs and lukasiaks in here … prove me wrong. Show me any evidence of any measurable effect of this kind thing.
empty
TZ, I think you are conflating two things: sexist attacks on Clinton, and their effect on the campaign. The first is so evident that as John says you have to be willfully blind to miss it. The second is an arguable point.
Wilfred
It’s hardly TZ that’s making the conflation, if anything he’s challenging what has become the latest meme emanating from the Clintonjugend.
Merely observing that sexist comments were made is the same as saying that Florida is humid or that Bush is an idiot. Of course sexism played some role in some people voting against Clinton. So fucking what? The only validity it has other an a statement of the obvious is in its potential conflationary value – that’s why it is being made. Clinton and her supporters still haven’t accepted the fact that they lost fair and fucking square. Tough shit.
Already McCain has been referred to here as a decrepit old gas bag – that does make John an ageist?
ThymeZone
The first is a blatant Proof By Assertion argument. There is no evidence that the thing exists anywhere other than in somebody’s imagination.
It’s a blatant lie and cannot be intellectually supported, cannot be supported with evidence. For every instance of “dont vote for her because she is a woman” we can produce an offsetting “vote for her because she is a woman.”
Are you going to suggest that one can argue that “we’ve had enough man presidents” is not a sexist argument? ARe you going to suggest that the gender of a candidate now trumps other considerations? That we can promote a woman candidate but cannot promote a male candidate on the basis of gender?
If you guys think you are going to sit here and gin up a proof by assertion argument of complete bullshit and get away with it, you are mistaken. I am not going to sit still for it.
But even more to the complete dishonesty of your argument, is the fact that we are operating against a set of charges of something called Misogyny and Rampant Sexism. As if poor Hillary has been battling this big voodoo monster from the get go, and has finally succumbed to it. This would require us to think that the presumptive nominee as of six months ago had escaped detection as a stealth woman candidate and had just been exposed when a popular Obama arrived on the scene after the first of the year. At that point, all the misogynists out there suddenly discovered that she was a WOMAN and she had to be stopped?
What the fuck nonsense argument are you making, first, and second, can you make it with facts and proof? This is complete and utter bullshit.
Show me how the lie that Hillary is being injured by sexism is any more supportable than the lie called the War on Christmas (a placeholder for War on Christians).
nightjar
empty, I think your conflating sexist attacks with the stupid pool hall remarks of the Matthews of the world. And even those were far less in number than I expected. I can honestly say, I didn’t see a single instance of what I consider a true “sexist attack” on Clinton in the media. Admittedly, I don’t watch every media outlet. A sexist attack is something that seriously makes the statement a woman can’t be President for a variety of pre-conceived notions. I’ll give you an example of when there was an opening for real serious sexism and that was when Hillary first shed a tear on the trail. It would have given cover to all out sexist attacks. But what happened? The MSM couldn’t quit gushing how it made her seem human, and the wingnuts just dismissed it as pandering by a shrewd politician.
Lynne
Empty, TZ is willfully blind and nothing anyone says is going to change his mind. He’s got his story and he’s sticking to it.
And of course, we all know that not one single African American in this entire country voted for Barack based on the color of his skin. Please. I live in a city that is majority black, and I think that Edwin Edwards old saying applies in this town – you can be re-elected unless you’re caught in bed with either a dead woman or a young boy. Actually, I’m not sure even that would spell disaster at the polls. Ricky Peete, one of our city councilmen, was convicted of bribery while serving on the city council and was sentenced to prison. After his release, he ran again for his old council seat and won. He is now awaiting trial for once again accepting bribes. I have no doubt that, if convicted again and again sentenced to prison, he could win that seat again after his release. That’s just politics here.
ThymeZone
Let’s put an end to this horseshit right now.
Let’s get an answer from the sexism-mongers:
If I declare that I prefer not to vote for Hillary Clinton because she is a woman, does that make me a sexist, and thereby make my declaration an act of sexism?
If a woman declares that she will vote for Hillary because she is a woman, and not for her male opponent for that same reason, is she a sexist, and is her declaration therefore an act of sexism?
And if you are foolish enough to answer Yes to either of those, which requires an answer of Yes to both, then explain to me how gender is NOT a valid matter for consideration at the voting booth? Why is it not rational, not legitimate, not fully acceptable, not desirable to take all known characteristics of a candidate into account when getting ready to mark the ballot? And who gets to decide that any such rational consideration is made illegitimate when it contains consideration of gender?
Don’t confuse voting with hiring an employee. This is not about equal job opportunity. It’s about what is and what is not on the table at voting time.
This is not about rights. Nobody has a right to be president.
ThymeZone
That’s a lie. You are making a purely ad hominem and proof by assertion argument. YOu’re a liar.
This is not a civil rights issue. Nobody, man or woman, white or black, christian or muslim or atheist, has a right to be president. No voter is under any obligation to make a voting choice on the basis of gender, or alternatively, while ignoring gender.
This argument you are making is a lie on every level. YOu can’t explain why a choice for a woman candidate is not just as sexist as a choice for a male candidate. YOu can’t show that any actual unwarranted sexism has been used against your candidate, or that if it has, that it has had any particular affect … for or against.
ThymeZone
Aside from the fact that this anecdote has nothing whatever to do with the sexism argument WRT Hillary Clinton, so what?
If the candidate is legally able to take the office then the voters are entitled to vote for him or against him as they see fit.
What does that have to do with Clinton? What does Obama’s race have to do with Clinton’s gender? If your gender argument is so strong, why do you need the foil of a black opponent to use as a strawman? Your argument should work even if your opponent was so white you’d need a piece of smoked glass to look at him lest you injure your eyes. Right?
What is the difference between the argument you are advancing, and the one advanced by the repellent Geraldine Ferraro a couple months ago?
Genine
There have definitely been sexist attacks on Clinton. Chris Matthews is an easy example and you have your various idiots in the blogsphere (mostly commenters, no popular left-wing bloggers, that I know of) who have made sexist comments.
The question for me is, has this affected Clinton’s campaign? Honestly, the answer for me is yes/ I don’t know. I think sexist attacks increase the chances of women voting for her. In my personal experience alone, I’ve known women that don’t particularly like her, but once there is a real or perceived sexist attack they rally around her and a few of my friends changed their votes on that basis. (I think its stupid to change one’s vote because of something like that, but that’s their prerogative.) As for Clinton losing votes because of sexist attacks- well that’s not so simple. My thinking on it is that someone who will vote against her because she is a woman will do so anyway, sexist attacks or no. These people made up their mind before Chris Matthews made one utterance, and likely they made up their minds about her 15 years ago when she was First Lady.
I think the sexism leveled at Clinton hurts us all in that it lowers the discourse and lowers all of us as people. It’s divisive and keeps us off track as people and as a nation.
empty
Yes!
The Other Steve
Agreed. I was rather disappointed with many of my fellow Democrats this cycle as they grasped hold of sexist and racist attacks on our candidates.
Not only are they divisive, and lower the discourse… they are contrary to everything the party stands for.