Tons of stuff to blog about, but very little interest in blogging, so some quick links instead.
1.) Obama tells folks to back off his wife, internet tough guy right-wing bloggers say “Hell, no!” No mention what the trollop thinks of all this.
2.) Big money Clinton backers allegedly try to buy some votes.
3.) Apparently McCain went on SNL to tell us how old he is. Duly noted.
4.) Pens are headed to the Stanley Cup.
5.) Bill Kristol, still dumb as a sack of hammers. I am noticing a trend here. Kristol claims government is inefficient, ineffective, and bad, gets a bunch of his buddies elected, and proves it. He also rails against the MSM, claims they can’t get their facts straight, gets a job at the NY Times, and proves it.
6.) Clinton campaign distributes a memo using language that creates an image of violence against women. Presumably, we are all misogynists for reading it.
I read somewhere that Geraldine Ferraro is now threatening to vote against Obama in the fall. Can we start ignoring her now?
Gus
I started ignoring Geraldine Ferraro the day after the 1984 presidential election (despite voting for her ticket).
flyerhawk
What amazes me is how many Hillary supporters who support her because of her gender and complain about sexism, feel comfortable blasting Michelle Obama.
In happier news 5 more SDs endorsed Obama today.
CFisher
Way ahead of you, John. Haven’t paid attention to her since ’84.
After June, I plan on going back to ignoring Hillary as well.
ThymeZone
Hell, you have Geraldine Ferraro writing posts right here at BJ under the pen names of Genine, Lynne, myiq, lukasiak, and empty. At least two of them could be spoofs, and the other three are just full of shit. Of course, when you can’t tell the spoofs from the fullashits, we all win.
In any case, the faux outrage of women scorned is going to be the new chant amongst the chattering classes here for a while, apparently. And lucky us, we have you, John, cheering them on, unless I misread you on another thread.
What a total crock it all is.
Meanwhile, here’s a reasonable assessment of how why and how Clinton snatched — that’s right, snatched — defeat from the jaws of victory. See if you can the sexism between the lines in this fine article.
Tax Analyst
Not yet, John. First I have to get through despising her.
Billy K
Who?
ThymeZone
arrggh, “see if you can find” …..
nightjar
Well they hate their own wingnut candidate as not being wingnutty enough to suit them. BArrack has thus far shown himself to be coated with industrial strength layers of teflon, so what’s a wingnut to attack. How do you say blowback? Every day RWB sound more and more like wacko carnival barkers still hanging around long after the circus left town.
Patrick
Maybe Geraldine and Larry can get a new “liberal” show on FOX News after their candidate concedes.
Punchy
I’ve stopped caring what little red sports cars from Italy think….
KC
Is Cindy McCain fairgame too then? I’ve heard she hasn’t made some very patriotic investments. Could be wrong though.
Genine
WTF? I’m full of shit just because I point out there has been some sexism during this election cycle? Just for the record, I think about 85% of what’s been called “sexist” isn’t. But just because 85% is bullshit doesn’t mean it all is. There has also been a lot of racism and other types of “isms” I don’t think is conducive to good political discourse.
Kiss my ass, TZ!
Dork
I’m praying Obama picks Cindy Sheehan as a VP, just to see Cole’s head literally explode in anger.
BTW, who gets Obama’s Senate seat if he’s elected? Is there some special election, or does the gov. get to choose?
ScheundenfreudeMonster
Might want to add an item to your list, John. I hear there are heads asploding all over the bloggiverse because Obama said Iran wasn’t a big threat to the United States, when, clearly, the Horde of Brown Peopl with Funny Names is coming to your home to kill you and rape your women TONIGHT!
Frankly, I’d give my left testicle and all my womenz for a President who tries to call it like it is instead of screaming, “FEAR, FEAR, YOU IDIOTS!” all the time.
Billy K
Believe it or not, I get to choose.
Weird, huh?
ThymeZone
Kiss my ass. Prove the sexism, and prove that it has any effect, or STFU. Take your dishonest proof-by-assertion bullshit and stuff it.
85%? 15%? I am kissing no ass from which so much horsecrap is being pulled at this alarming rate. If you are going to make things up, it’s best not to assign numbers to them.
Go back to your Geraldine Ferraro hen party.
Zifnab
Hey, the less press time for McCain the better. I honestly don’t mind wingnuts launching their next round of verbal crusades against Obama. Anyone who is going to change votes because someone pointed out Obama has big ears or still may be a secret Muslim or once looked at a white guy funny probably wasn’t going to vote for him to begin with.
In the mean time, people develop a renewed disgust at the gossip-rag media in the middle of economic slumps and mortgage crises and natural disasters that no talking heads seem to give a crap about.
We played through this smear campaign in ’00, and Gore still basically won. We played through it in ’04, and the incumbent won in a squeaker (that was, itself, highly suspect of voter disenfranchisement). Obama will continue showing up at venues that attract tens of thousands of fans. McCain will continue to suffer from anemic fund raising and “Anyone-But-A-Democrat” die-hard popular support.
All the smears in the world just serve to run out the clock. They’re not going to sell McCain just by cheapening the discourse.
John S.
You have now been inducted as a BJ regular.
Zifnab
*takes away the kickball*
Ok, I’ve had enough of your potty mouth talk, the both of you. Nose in the corner for five minutes, and then I want you to tell me what you did wrong.
Don’t make me write a note to your parents.
ThymeZone
Any other year, I’d agree with this. But this year, our opponent is his own worst enemy. The more he spouts and the more the talking headcheeses bloviate about what he says, the better for us, I think.
Mister Magoo is our secret weapon. Let him have the stage. When the laughter dies down, Barack can come on and explain reality.
Dork
I’m waiting for the 1st crazed righty to take Huckabee’s assasination comments and run with ’em. I’m guessing it’ll be Ann Coulter, since she’s running low on media-friendly ascerbic vitriol and clear-cut racism. She’ll need to REALLY up the ante to get TV face time, so I’m guessing she’ pen some screed about whether or not “offing Obama is really a crime” or “would Obama’s killer be considered a hero or a really big hero” or some such simply insane bullshit. And BLAM! 5 prime-time news bookings instantly.
nightjar
Tru Love?
ThymeZone
The stench of Rampant Sexism(c)!
Dripping with words like “calculating,” obviously a dog whistle to misogynists everywhere. Okay, not everywhere, but certainly in several areas. Okay, one or two areas.
Okay, not really “dripping,” but containing. Having. Displaying.
Did I say “stench?” I apologize, I meant “stain.”
Can we get Chris Matthews to vet my posts?
johninpt
God, I remember how much shit I took back in ’84 when arguing to my lib/Dem cohorts that Ferraro was a mediocrity and a hack. All they could see was the “historic” implications of what was a craven and doomed gambit by Fritz Mondale — another mediocrity and hack.
kwAwk
Who would the trollop be in John’s post? That wouldn’t be another veiled sexist insult against Clinton would it? Or is he calling Michelle Obama a trollop? Perhaps there is another trollop out there we are unaware of?
To answer the charge about how Clinton supporters don’t mind attacking Michelle Obama, the reason for this is most of the attacks I’ve seen on the Obamas are attacks on their positions, qualifications, or on things that have happened in the campaign. They aren’t the the type of personal bitch/whore types that come at Clinton.
Stemler
McCain is really old, so what? If the plan is to harp on that till November I’d like to remind you all that the last time age was an issue in a presidential election the really old republican won 97.6% of the electoral votes.
John Cole
The stupid, it burns.
Face
Via S,N:
Folks, I give you Dan Riehl:
So, the liberals aren’t really liberal, especially Obama, even though he’s been labeled The Mostest Libeal(TM) and Americans hate the left, which is why they own the House and Senate. And will soon have just a ridiculous majority in the House.
How do these guys like Danny even feed and dress themselves?
John D.
Well, *you* may be unaware of her, but pretty much everybody else recognizes the Cindy McCain reference.
KRK
Wait, Bob Dole won? OMG!!! The Clinton perfidy never ends!!
kwAwk
John Cole Says:
C’mon. You happily voted for Bush/Cheney twice and you have the ‘audacity’ to call me stupid?
nightjar
NOw the wingers are in a froth because Obama said Iran was not a serious threat in the way the Soviet Union was. Of course they skip over the soviet Union part and go with, Obama say’s Iran is not a serious threat.
10,000 Nuclear weapons aimed on a hair trigger at every “burg” on American soil VS. Loudmouth Mullahs who MIGHT get one nuke in 10 years.
The stupid, it lives in every cell of the body politic.
Punchy
I just went to his site, and is it just me, or do none of the comments line up at all with any of his posts? He posts about Edwards, and the comments are arguments about the Big Dig. He trashes liberals, and the comments blast someone named “Fred”.
Riehl’s website must ride the short bus to the Intertubes each day. Jesus.
cleek
McCain = Jesus
Genine
Seriously, TZ, are you smoking something? I am NOT an “outraged” woman. I am NOT a Hillary supporter. I thought she was OK, until she proved herself to be an underhanded scumbag (imo). And, as far as I’m concerned, Geraldine Ferraro can join you in kissing my ass!
Just because I can (calmly) note that there has been sexism (the Hillary “Nutcracker”, “Iron my shirts”, and quite a few things Chris Matthews has said) does not make me have faux-outrage. In fact, I have no outrage, except being extremely annoyed with you for lumping me into some category.
As far as the numbers go, that’s how *I* see it. I read and listen to a lot of my friends and “allies” bitch about sexism and I disagree with them most of the time. Sometimes, I think they have a point, but 85% of the time I think they’re full of shit.
PeterJ
Trollop
nightjar
kwakk is throwing a tantrum again. Poor thing.
cleek
kwAwk = idiot
D-Chance.
Old Sheets (D-WV) endorsed Obama today, so the
racist, er,KKK, er, “working class white” Democrats are falling in line.BethanyAnne
kwAwk
“You” may be unaware of who the “trollop” is, but we aren’t. “Trollop” is what McSame called his wife in front of the press a few years back. He also called her a “c**t”, theoretically. Prolly a debunked thing, and pretty irrelevant thing to me, but that’s the reference.
I’ve personally seen a ton of BS posters at TalkHillary that hate on Michelle Obama. They stop just a hair shy of calling her uppity, but that’s clearly the tone.
Wilfred
I think KwAwk is the second coming of P.Lukasiak;Myiq et al.
The Axis of Drivel is back.
The Other Steve
If you think Fritz is mediocrity and a hack, then you should meet his son Ted. Not only is he a mediocrity and a hack, he’s an asshole.
Ninerdave
Well you did quote the entire thread.
PeterJ
Not sure what your ability of copying and posting everything written in this thread is a sign of.
One thing is certain though, it is not a sign of you not being stupid…
John S.
Who the fuck blockquotes the entire thread??
Stemler
Yeah, but the question is: is it not a sign of someone not being stupid more than voting for Bush is not a sign of someone not being stupid?
Genine
That is the stupidest thing I’ve read in the last 17 hours. And the last stupid thing I read was from you as well.
So you’re on a roll.
ThymeZone
Oooh, I wew get yew, you wascawy sexist wabbits!
Dwipping with misogyny.
Rampant Sexism(c).
I’m Gewaldine Fewawo Fudd, and I apwove this message.
jake
Shit is that tonight? Can we reschedule, I was going to indoctrinate a bunch of happily married couples into the homosectyouall lifestyle.
Damn, I guess I can do both at once.
Busy, busy, busy.
An utter moron. SA2SQ.
The Moar You Know
I was impressed. He/she/tard/it didn’t even look at what it was posting, just threw some shit at the wall and prayed it would stick this time.
Stupid is as stupid does. kwAwk is the cancer that is killing the internet, one idiot post at a time.
w vincentz
ok…fuck Geraldine (she needs it badly!).
Yup, tough to become motivated. It’s the lull before the storm.
All the whining, all the pissing in the undies while lookin’ a the panties in a knot thinkin’…look at what’s comin’!
Hill bots, it ain’t Obama that caused the storm, (despite your best efforts to hang it on males). She did her best, sorry for her lack. She didn’t cause the storm either (though she contributed a panty load).
Really, this is the “Katrina moment”, the insight that comes over when looking at the satellite photos of the storm coming across the Gulf of Mexico,
HOLT SHIT! This is Big! And it’s gathering more momentum.
Look at how well the Chimp did to prevent it, and what he did in its aftermath. The GOP is equally fucked. “Heckovajob, Brownie” and all that.
THERE’S A STORM A’COMIN’!
And it’s about fuckin’ time!
We the people are about to reclaim our country, despite the best inept efforts of those that seek to deny, ignore, excuse, or blame.
TRY TO STOP THE STORM!
NR
What? Nothing about the Byrd endorsement? I think that’s pretty significant.
ThymeZone
Well, he might be the terminal flatulence. Not the cancer.
kwAwk
I agree that quoting the whole thread wasn’t the brightest thing to but it ain’t like I can edit it, and the quote from John was the only thing that appeared in my little window. I suppose I’ll scroll down and check the preview pane next time.
Aside from that, I’ve never heard the the trollop comment about McCain. Though for some reason I did hear about the c*nt aspect of it. I don’t know. Perhaps its because I don’t waste my time reading Drudge.
Back to the Michelle Obama thing, seriously, most of the commentary I see around here insulting the Obamas has to do with their positions, experience or things that have happened on the campaign, not the type of slimey personal attacks that have been leveled at Clinton. Someone point out to me a pro-Hillary blog that contains the types of gross personal attacks against Obama that we see about Hillary here?
kwAwk
The Moar You Know Says:
Killing the internet? Wow. Now that is quite an accomplishment. lmao.
Notorious P.A.T.
I didn’t condemn any misogyny today. Guess that makes me a sexist pig.
Ned Raggett
Folks, I just have to say this — whatever else may be happening with American politics right now, Russian politics trumps it — specifically the bit in the second to last paragraph.
ThymeZone
You mean like this?
NYTimes.
John Cole
Could we see the “gross personal attacks” against Hillary that you see around here.
PS- Mocking her nonsense on the gas tax, decrying her say anything campaign, and calling Mark Penn an asshole are not “gross personal attacks” on Clinton.
John Cole
And I fixed your comment.
kwAwk
Was that you or somebody else who was making Vince Foster jokes the other day?
kwAwk
That was directed at TZ by the way, not JC.
And thanks for correcting the post.
The Moar You Know
As Kasparov spoke a toy penis with wings buzzed across the hall and around him. It was not clear who was behind the stunt.
We need this so badly in our country.
w vincentz
kwAwk,
I don’t know you but I can already tell you that I don’t like you.
Have you ever seen a hurricane?
If so, get ready.
If not, get ready.
Either way, you’re still an a-hole, and you’re equally fucked.
Next come back?
ThymeZone
Don’t look now but I seem to be smoking you.
Dennis - SGMM
Pie scripted for brevity.
ThymeZone
Somebody else, AFAIK.
Jon H
Gotta ‘love’ how it’s a “slap in the face” for Barack to declare victory now, when *two months* ago Clinton essentially declared victory when she had the gall to offer Obama – who was in the lead – the VP spot.
Bill W.
“5.) Bill Kristol, still dumb as a sack of hammers. I am noticing a trend here. Kristol claims government is inefficient, ineffective, and bad, gets a bunch of his buddies elected, and proves it. He also rails against the MSM, claims they can’t get their facts straight, gets a job at the NY Times, and proves it.”
that’s hardly a new schtick. It’s the GOP credo. Ever since Ronnie Raygun said at his inaugural address that “Government is not the solution to our problem. Government is the problem” the entire GOP could hardly have done more to ensure that it is the case.
BethanyAnne
kwAwk, meet No Quarter
and Taylor Marsh
and, of course, Hillary is 44
That enough?
kwAwk
JC said:
AkaDad
John McCain: Older Than ThymeZone
ThymeZone
Correct, and only a sexist race-baiter like Obama would have rejected her generous offer.
Rampant Sexism(c) strikes again!
Oh, the inanity!
cbear
Nice try John, but the time for “fixing” anything that boy has to say passed a long time ago. Probably right around the time he got all twisted up in that mobile and fell out of the crib.
ThymeZone
Hey! Just a damn ….
So what?
SHUT UP.
Dennis - SGMM
Proof of American technological superiority: the Republican party is running a walking, talking penis for president.
AkaDad
Kiss my ass! ;-)
ThymeZone
Again.
And BTW, cut the sexist humor.
ThymeZone
Ageist bastard!
Just Some Fuckhead
JC, with 200 comments per thread and all these high-profile links from stalwarts like Kos and Drum, you should be getting better Clinton trolls. You need to file an official complaint with Taylor Marsh.
Blue Raven
Hey, TZ, going to ask me to kiss your ass because I agree with Genine? The Hillary Nutcracker was pathetic. “Iron my Shirts” was right down there with it. Other than that and the Matthews stuff, I’ve seen some of the run-of-the-mill stuff all prominent women get, such as wardrobe analyses out of alignment with the context (the blue pantsuit on the red pickup truck was blatant pandering and thus a fair target). If you’re going to foam at the mouth over someone noting the very real sexism Hillary received as opposed to the fantasy-level variety her Kool-Aid drinkers have insisted exists, I have to wonder, what have YOU been drinking?
Genine
What are you talking about?
Nevermind. You’re not making any sense today.
Andrew
Hillary doesn’t wipe when she pees! That’s sort of gross and personal.
Jon H
Legitimist fuckwit!
Ben
The Wings are going to get it together tonight, and then we’ll see about your Stanley Cup prediction.
w vincentz
This thread is about to get good.
Come on back, my friend.
Jon H
It’s getting harder to unload a gross of personal attacks on Clinton. There just isn’t as much of a market for them these days, since she started fading. I have a feeling I’ll be trying to sell them on EBay for the next twenty years. Maybe I’ll put them in for free with every order of navel lint.
cbear
BTW, anybody seen Lynne (aka Church Lady) around since last night?
Can someone send me a warning email if they do see her–
I haven’t had a chance to round up a sharp stick and fresh bandages for my eye yet today, but I want to be prepared.
null pointer exception
Patti Solis Doyle may join Obama team.
Z
Genine,
Just about every current and former commenter here has asked TZ to kiss their ass at some point. I would tell him to kiss my ass, too, except… well… his lips have clearly been around.
Oh, and Bill Kristol is an idiot. No one can mock him enough.
nightjar
BO rides like the wind on THE Mighty MUP.
w vincentz
Jon, Can I get me some Hillary navel lint?
PeterJ
Obviously she is a mole placed into the Clinton campaign by Axelrod. She then destroyed Clinton’s chances of winning and now she’s reaping her reward.
/SNARK
Dennis - SGMM
Patty Solis Doyle is obviously a misogynist.
Dennis - SGMM
And a traitor.
Helena Montana
Add to your list 7. Robert Byrd endorses Obama. Considering the Senator Byrd’s history (going back more than 20 years), one can only say, who’d a thunk?
cbear
or a serial killer—-they seem to be the only people who always use their middle names.
Dreggas
Not that I have an urge to kiss TZ’s ass myself but there was a bit of sexism none of which was Obama’s doing (see mathews and the “iron my shirt” shit). However none of that compared to what was done by the (s)hillbots. None of it had any real effect on the outcome of the race either. In fact, if any “ism” had any effect it was more likely racism as reflected in the exit polls from WV and elsewhere showing that race played a big role in how people voted and the majorities who said it did went for Clinton.
Of course people will see what they want and if they look hard enough everything can be made into sexism as has been the case with the hillbots. Same goes for some of the cries of racism on the Obama side when most of the comments made were stependously stupid and if not racist then biggoted to say the least.
The hillary nut-cracker has been around for years and honestly I find it hilarious (saw one at a virgin mega-store the other day). People need to turn off their outrage meters and come back down to earth and realize that sexism was not a big factor in Hillary losing. Nope, in the mold of a true feminist she lost on her own merit.
Jon H
” The Hillary Nutcracker was pathetic. ”
That always struck me as the kind of thing that could be bought by Hillary haters or by Hillary fans embracing Clinton’s supposed ‘toughness’ and willingness to ‘fight’.
And, really, calling a woman a ‘nutcracker’ is a hell of a lot more positive than calling a man a ‘twat puncher’. There’s just no way to spin that as a good thing, which is probably why it doesn’t get used much.
Also, “nutcracker” isn’t inherently sexist, as guys can be ballbreakers too. (“You’re breaking my balls, Hans! You’re breaking my balls!” – Kim Jong Il, Team America, referring to Hans Blix)
Just Some Fuckhead
Prolly gonna be in charge of turd shining since she has experience with that from the HRC campaign.
Just Some Fuckhead
OOPS, didn’t notice until I hit Submit that it was a sexist attack. Sorry all.
Jon H
Hillary does not have a navel, she sprang fully-formed and perfect from the mind of God and emerged from a giant clamshell onto the shores of Lake Michigan.
cbear
Is it OK to use the word c–t if I write it with a British accent?
Dreggas
POTD
John Cole
Anyone who votes for McCain over Obama is that stupid.
PS- That is not a direct personal attack on Hillary. Nor is it sexist.
Dennis - SGMM
First, Patty Solis Doyle, now if Obama can only snag Mark Penn.
What? Did Dean decide that the Obama campaign needed a handicap?
Conservatively Liberal
Why are you people picking on Geraldine? What has she ever done to you? Just because she looks like some black guy wearing a wig and a padded bra, speaking in a falsetto voice, that is no reason to pick on her!
ThymeZone
None of it has had any measurable, demonstrable or provable effect on any outcome anywhere. Am I wrong? Show the facts to the contrary.
You are talking about nothing but a bunch of everyday schoolyard taunts and lame snark. You can shovel in all the faux outrage, concern troll frowns, handwringing and hysterical feminist horseshit you want, it doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.
Total, complete, absolute bullshit. Clinton lost because she ran a shitty campaign, she voted for AUMF and wouldn’t disavow it, and created one PR clusterfuck after another for herself. Ran herself out of money, misunderestimated the opposition, acted arrogant and entitled, tried to overplay the stupid gender card, fuck up many different ways, and got herself in second place and without time to catch up.
Tough shit. Fuck her. I despise the broad, but I sat right here 8 months ago and declared her the apparent nominee to be and urged everyone to get behind her. So there you go.
Now go and have some Victim Tea with Genineadine Ferraro.
Dennis - SGMM
It will be, John, it will be.
ThymeZone
“Nutcracker” is about the politics of sex and gender.
That other thing you said, I don’t know what the hell that is, but I’d as soon not hear again any time soon.
Jon H
“Clinton lost because she ”
has behaved like the kind of skeevy lawyer _everyone_ hates.
It’s simple – if you act like Nathan Thurm, and you’re up against a likable candidate, you won’t get elected.
Just Some Fuckhead
I respect you trying to manipulate reactions to your own comments, JC, but you can’t actually decide whether or not something is sexist. All you can do is put it out there and let Teh Clinton Trolls determine if the sexist trope will allow them to meet their ends.
Adam
TZ has accused half the people on this blog of being sockpuppets at some time or another. I wouldn’t take it too seriously if I were you.
ThymeZone
Funny, succinct, and about ten times better than what I said.
Nikki
I think I see where TZ is coming from. He’s saying that sexism had no debilitating affect on Hillary’s campaign. I disagree with him that the sexism didn’t exist. It obviously did. People have pointed out the more obvious occurrences. And some people didn’t vote for her because she is a woman. The exit polls show this. It wasn’t, however, a major factor in why she lost. She did that on her own.
Pooh
You’re kidding about it being a “fine” article.
Let me try this one on as far as reasons go: THE WAR THE WAR THE WAR THE WAR THE WAR THE WAR
Funny how none of the pre-postmortems even mention that as a reason…
Adam
I… What? Byrd was one of Obama’s first allies when he to Capitol Hill. This is ignorant.
ThymeZone
Produce the posts where I called half the people on this blog, or for that matter, two people, sockpuppets.
nightjar
Anyone wanting to tweak their blood pressure, go over and read this from today’s Times.
Clinton: ‘This Is Nowhere Near Over
Bey
Only if you look like Sean Bean’s Oliver Mellors.
Yum.
TheFountainHead
What a fantastic thread!
I’m with TZ here. Sexism can’t be given a toehold on the beach here. The issue isn’t sexism, it’s that she has incredibly high negatives driven up by a lot of legitimate issues, not the least of which seems to be the way in which she viciously attacked the women that Bill was bumping around with. How’s that for karmatic sexism??
Jon H
No it isn’t, ballbreaking is gender specific only in the subject of the ballbreaking. If ‘gonadbreaker’ rolled off the tongue better then it would be a totally gender-neutral substitute. The actor doing the nut-breaking can be of any gender. I bet a pet dog demanding a walk at 6am in the rain has been called a ballbreaker at some point.
Nor does it inherently signify a lack of respect. It’s easy to imagine a favorite teacher, manager, coach, or professor being described as a ball breaker, and *loved and respected* for that.
Patrick Fitzgerald is a ballbreaker, and god bless him for it. I expect that Margaret Thatcher has been fondly described as a ballbreaker by some Tory at some point.
Jon H
“Clinton: ‘This Is Nowhere Near Over”
Quick, someone find a town or county in Kentucky or Oregon or Montana or Puerto Rico named ‘Over’.
Krista
Good point. I’ll agree with Genine and Blue Raven that there was definitely some sexism out there. To claim that there was absolutely not even a breath of sexism is…well..silly. However, that being said, I will assert that there is no way that sexism is what hurt Clinton’s campaign. One could even argue that perceived sexism gave her a not-inconsiderable boost in New Hampshire.
In the long run, Clinton’s gender, whether played as a liability or an asset, proved to have very little effect on the whole thing. Her campaign was poorly run, and people want a fresh, new name and face. She was simply outplayed.
Dreggas
On the ballbreaker bit, I agree that it is gender specific in the anatomy it “breaks” but otherwise can be male or female. My Drill Sgt, a male, was a real ball-breaker. It’s not gender.
ThymeZone
What is the ratio of voters who voted for her because she was a woman, to those who voted against her because she is a woman? You don’t know, do you?
Unless both choices are sexist, then neither is. But of course, although idiots like you don’t see it, the distinction simply degrades the notion of sexism in the first place.
There is nothing sexist about choosing a candidate on the basis of gender. Sexism is about denial of fairness and rights, denial of opportunity, or equal protection, on the basis of gender. Not about deciding whether a man or a woman would be a better race car driver, or president.
Sexism is a phony and dishonest claim here. Clinton lost because she did poorly and was a loser. Not because she is a woman.
Taunts are not sexism. They’re taunts. Every man knows about taunts, men taunt each other constantly from the time they learn to talk to each other. It’s about mind games, not sexism.
But the bottom line is, there’s no measurable or even arguable effect visible in this campaign traceable to sexism, never has been. Let the sexism-shriekers produce evidence to the contrary.
So far all they can muster is trying to use me as a strawman to fluff up their imagined victimhood. Good luck with that.
cbear
I’d like to nightjar, but I only have one sharp stick and one eye left and I’m saving both in case Lynne shows up later tonight and starts concern trolling for Hillary again.
Dreggas
sounds like I missed one heckuva night.
John D.
Well, here, for example. Not that I’m disagreeing with your assessment of them, but to claim that you never claimed that? C’mon.
ThymeZone
Why would I argue that the thing doesn’t exist? Of course it exists, just as racism exists.
So what? Where’s the effect of sexism in this campaign?
The vast majority of it appears to be manifested in the form of women who voted for Hillary because she is a woman.
If that is not sexism, then don’t waste my time, we aren’t talking about sexism in the first place.
And if anyone on the Shriekery side of this argument can actually make an intelligent distinction, which I doubt, then have them explain why a woman deserves to be chosen over a man, but a man can’t be chosen over a woman, and why the two choices are not the two sides of the same coin.
They don’t want to answer that question. They’d rather cry their victim tears and act like they are being unfairly treated here.
Crock.Of.Shit.
Pure Ferraroism. That asshole woman is the epitome of the Hillary Victim Society.
TheFountainHead
TZ is all fired up tonight. Guess age isn’t everything?
Nikki
TZ,
I must be called an idiot because I agreed with the vast majority of your argument? Does it have to be all or nothing with you?
nightjar
Yep Dreggas, it was, and by all indications promises to continue tonight, and maybe for a few weeks and months. Balloon Juice is becoming Battlefield of the Sexes. Sweet Jeebus.
Dreggas
Link? lol
Davis X. Machina
Did the Germans bomb Pearl Harbor again?
ThymeZone
Listen, fuckhead, you said that I accused “half the people on this blog” of being sockpuppets, and you had to go back to 2006 to find an example of me NOT CALLING SOMEONE A SOCKPUPPET to support your fucking lie?
A spoof is not a sockpuppet you moron. And as far as who is a spoof and who is not, just note that about “half the people on this blog” are on a mailing list together. Let me put it this way, I am in a pretty good position to know who the spoofs are, damnsight better than you are.
Fucking idiot.
ThymeZone
Well let’s find out.
1. Do you argue that sexism is in any way responsible for the fate of Clinton’s campaign?
2. Do you think that “for the man” is more sexist than “for the woman” as a voting choice?
3. Do you think that gender is a legitimate distinction in making a voting choice?
4. Do you think HRC is a victim of something?
Let’s start with those and see where we go.
Wilfred
Every time I see the name Patty Solis Doyle I have the urge to make up dirty (not quite) limericks. Clinton? Forget about it
John D.
Um, hello?
A) I’m not a fuckhead.
B) I’m not the guy who accused you.
C) I’ve *seen* you accuse people of being sockpuppets, so I found an example. JUST AS YOU ASKED. You didn’t set a time frame, and I didn’t feel like digging deeply.
And finally:
According to you, it is. For total humor — it’s the exact same thread I just linked to, 8 entries further down.
cbear
scroll down the threads to “Also, He Never Apologized For Lots Of Other Stuff He Didn’t Do Either, So He Must Be An Asshole”.
KRK
Except not, because the sides in this “battle” don’t break down by gender. Not going to let it be assumed that the “it is too sexism” crowd speaks for everyone with XX chromosomes.
Tlaloc
“I read somewhere that Geraldine Ferraro is now threatening to vote against Obama in the fall. Can we start ignoring her now?”
Of course you _can._
Whether you _should_ is probably a function of her reasons for voting against Obama. If it’s purely based on Obama having a penis then that’s pretty dumb, since decades ago McCain did as well.
Adam
You accused me of being a sockpuppet for that Cassidy dude while you were accusing him of being a sockpuppet for Darrell. It was nonsense and I stopped commenting for a long time because you were being such a prick, much like you’re being now.
I’m sure you recognize that “half the people on this blog” is just a turn of the phrase. That said, you’ve done it before, and the distinction between “spoof” and “sockpuppet” is not convincing to me. But it seems you’re not paying a lot of attention since you just accused someone else of making the comment I made. It’s just something that I find pretty distasteful, so now it’s out there for your consideration. Take it as you will.
Nikki
No. I said so in my comment. You obviously skipped over that part.
No. They are equally sexist.
No, and if anyone does, they should have their heads examined.
Of her own hubris and ineptitude, yes.
JL
I saw Barack Obama speak at Georgia Tech months before he won Iowa and have supported him since then. As a female I don’t think that I’m sexist for not supporting Hillary. Hillary’s votes in the Senate have been very cautious and her vote giving Bush the permission to invade Iraq wrong. Early on if she had come out and said I was wrong in casting that vote, then maybe I would have listened.
John D.
To be fair, she’s also the victim of the ineptitude of her advisors, which I expect will reach near-legendary status by the time this ends.
ThymeZone
Yeah, JOhn D, except for one little thing: Nobody who knows what these things are calls a spoof a sockpuppet or vice versa. They’re squishy terms but the usage is quite clearly distinct.
A spoof is a voice that represents a point of view which is not that of the writer. A mimic of another point of view.
A sockpuppet is a voice that deliberately supports the puppeteer’s point of view, using a different handle.
My mangling of the terms doesnt change the reality, and that is the reality.
I don’t pay attention to sockpuppetry, but I am very interested in spoof. I have called half the posters here spoofs, because … wait for it … they are. We have a rather robust spoof community here and a good percentage of the participants keep in contact off the blog.
Like I said, you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. Whereas, I do.
As for misidentifying you, fuck you. You jumped into a subargument that wasn’t yours and as a lot of people know, I dont pay close attention to names a lot of times around here. If you want to be somebody else’s lawyer, then you have to put up with that. Fuck you if you dont like it.
JL
IMO Hillary was watching the polls and didn’t come out against the administration until it was to late.
NR
The #1 issue for Democratic primary reform has to be to get rid of superdelegates.
Victory for either Clinton or Obama is impossible without the aid of superdelegates. And that has put the supporters of both candidates in the position where they’d be unhappy about a victory by the other. Even if Obama ends up with a delegate majority, and even if there is a satisfactory resolution to the Florida and Michigan situation, Clinton supporters will still feel screwed over by the superdelegates if he wins (voters always feel that the candidate they support is better than the alternative, and the job of the supers is supposed to be to choose the best candidate, so Clinton supporters will feel that the supers failed in their duty).
The question for the general is whether or not we Democrats have totally screwed ourselves. Will Hillary’s supporters come on board, or will they latch onto the idea that the supers fucked them over?
Without the superdelegates as the final deciders of the nomination, Hillary supporters would still feel disappointed, even angry, but they wouldn’t be able to blame the DNC for their candidate’s loss. If it wasn’t for the supers having the final say, Hillary would probably have dropped out after the Wisconsin primary when the delegate math became insurmountable, and we’d be heading into the GE with a unified party, instead of the sorry state we’re in now. (Don’t forget that McCain won the Republican nomination on Super Tuesday with about 1/3 of the votes. Many Republicans were unhappy, but they didn’t go nuclear over it the way Hillary supporters have done. Why? Because there was no one out there for them to try to convince to change the results).
Nikki
And none of that mitigates that sexism was displayed against HRC in this campaign.
ThymeZone
Well then, whatever blast I made, if it was aimed at you, was mis-aimed. It was probably aimed at one of the Shriekery mob, the Rampant Sexism(c) gang.
Whipping up on a gang of tormentors and doing three other things at the same time, I get the names wrong a good deal of the time. I have a long list of standard apologies and excuses. Please accept numbers 53 and 107a.
nightjar
de la Chapelle syndrome). Yup, that does complicate matters.
cbear
Yep, and because it’s difficult to determine gender based on nicknames, and because you can apparently only be sexist if you are:
1. male
2. an Obama supporter
I propose that before posting each and every commenter fill out a registration form for John Cole that lists their sexual and political orientation. I’m sure he can tweak the BJ software so it applies a tag to those of us most likely to offend the tender sensibilities of our fellow commentators and they can then dismiss our views accordingly.
I think the acronym CWAP (Commenting With A Penis) would probably do the trick.
Hence, I would become:
cbear (cwap) says:
I’m still working on the Obama tag thing.
Discuss.
ThymeZone
Really? So is “two or three people.” The difference is that one is accurate, and one is very much not accurate.
As for me being a prick, duh. I write a prick persona and have done so for three years. If you don’t like, don’t read the posts. Or, hide in the closet and wet your pants for a long time, or sulk, or whatever, I don’t give a shit.
The fact is what you said wasn’t true and I said so, and I was right.
I call out spoofs on a regular basis, and will continue to do so. For reasons explained at length numerous time already. If you dont like that, write to John Cole, maybe you can talk him into banning me again?
Nikki
No, I’m pretty damned sure it was aimed at me. But your apology is accepted…if I can ever find the damn list.
Wisdom
TZ is to to McCain what senile is to hero.
Pretty soon Jen will be along and he can get the satisfaction he can’t get from Hillary.
ThymeZone
Then YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Spoofing is just about an inch short of being an industry, it is pretty organized. The fact that you don’t know about it doesn’t make it not so. It is so. Entire blogs are built around spoof.
These aren’t my terms, I didn’t create them. If you think I am wrong about it, ask somebody else who you think is more knowledgable.
Sockpuppetry is about authorship. Spoof is about mimicry of voice and viewpoint. They are two very different things. If this is all too hard for you, maybe a different hobby, like stamp collecting, would be more to your liking?
John Cole
Na Ga Ha Pen.
ThymeZone
If you will send me your credit card numbers and expiration dates, I will see that you get a current copy.
John D.
I’m nobody’s lawyer, dude.
Here’s the thing — when Darrell spouted factually incorrect bullshit, I spoke up. When Brian spouted factually incorrect bullshit, I spoke up. When EEEL spouted factually incorrect bullshit, I spoke up.
You are spouting factually incorrect bullshit. I’m speaking up. Don’t like it? Then stop making false claims.
I chose the thread to link I did because I saw that *you* defined the terms “spoof” and “sockpuppet” within it. I do not use the terms that way — I use spoof to mean someone who is presenting a set of beliefs they do not personally hold to cause a reaction, and a sockpuppet to mean someone who presents themself as another, usually to hide their link to the first persona.
I was responding to you, however, and did so using the terminology you chose, in the way you chose. I’m sorry that you don’t like having your words used against you, but as you say — you’re a persona, not a real person, so all I have to go by is what you chose to post.
Why do you constantly say “fuck you” to me, BTW? I’ve not posted anything that warrants that level of vitriol in response. I’m sorry that you’re upset about being shown to be wrong, but the solution is to stop being wrong, not to curse me.
Adam
Speaking as someone who’s neither a spoof nor a sockpuppet, and not a member of the mailing list, I think TZ’s welcome to make that accusation, but no one is particularly obligated to taking it seriously, either. (Pointing out that TZ accuses people of saying things that don’t represent their views pretty regularly is clearly not a lie, either, any distinction between spoofing and sockpuppetry notwithstanding.)
I thought it was worth mentioning, because I have a clear recollection of people here being chased off from time to time based on that sort of accusation, apparently because they have no knowledge of TZ’s supernatural divination abilities and advanced theories of internet satire.
I doubt that’s TZ’s intent — given the apparent approval of spoofing — but in some cases the distinction obviously isn’t clear to people on the other end of that accusation, as appeared to be the case earlier in this thread. If those people are being disingenous, my disclaimer doesn’t matter. If not, I think they do deserve the aside as a matter of course.
I think TZ actually did a pretty good job right here of demonstrating what I was talking about — maybe TZ is spoofing, who knows — so I don’t think there’s much need to discuss it further. It just is what it is. People can either get offended about it or they can chill out, but they should at least do it for the right reasons.
Queixada
Get your trollops here!
Get your cunts here!
One vote for Hillary each
Nikki
LOL. In the sage words of our kind and gentile host:
nightjar
Existing with a penis (EWAP) might be bit more complete, when not commenting of course. i’d be NEWAP.
ThymeZone
Mitigates? Politics is a mean food fight punctuated by frequent kicks in the junk or fingers in eyes. Nasty.
Why should sexism be mitigated? Why should any form of politcial meanness be mitigated, or banned, or excused, or …
You see what I mean? Why should “Your pastor hates America” be okay but “You cry like a girl” be off limits?
I’m a little confused. Hillary says “I’m tough, I’m a fighter” but her losership is all of a sudden all about whining and crying over sexism and other imagined forms unfair treatment. She wants to play Rocky when it suits her, and then play Victim of Rampant Sexism(c) when it suits her?
I don’t get it. Politics as slumber party? Put me down as Unalterably Opposed.
JL
I’ll go first, white female, not yet over sixty, surburban Atlanta, (not forsyth county) Obama supporter. Am I sexist, nah.
Krista
I actually think they both are. Let’s just say for argument’s sake that there ARE some people out there who voted for Obama because he’s a male. If that is such a horrible thing, then why is it okay to vote for Clinton because she’s a woman?
Needless to say, I am REALLY looking forward to the day when you guys have had a couple of non-Caucasian and/or non-male Presidents, so that it stops being such a huge deal, and so that maybe….someday….a President can be elected on his or her merits, not their gender, race, state of origin, or whether or not you’d like to have a beer with them.
Dreggas
how about this, all men who voted for obama over hillary are guilty of VWM, Voting While Male.
ThymeZone
Calling somebody a spoof is “chasing them off?” From a food fight blog?
What a wanker.
JL
An additional point on my profile, I used to be independent because I’m pretty conservative fiscally but liberal on social values. The trickle down economy has never worked and I the middle class needs a tax break. It will be a long, long, long time before I vote for a republican again.
Adam
Shrug. Like I said, I don’t really care. I disagree with that Genine person, but I think they misunderstood your meaning. It appeared to me that you were accusing them of insincerity and they took that personally, and so I said they shouldn’t take you seriously, and it appears that you didn’t want them to either, since you were accusing them of spoofing, which is apparently totally different.
I’m glad we understand the distinction between the two now. I’ll continue to read the posts now and you can comment or not comment as you please.
Well, to the extent that you may not have literally accused half the people posting on this blog of sockpuppetry, yes, that was obviously not true and I’m sorry that you misunderstood me.
Nevertheless, you do make that accusation, contrary to what you claim. So we’re both liars. Or spoofers, or disingenuous personas. Whatever.
So now we’re all clear that TZ’s “persona” of prickishness is simply that, and should be taken with a grain of salt, or, alternatively, “not seriously,” which was how I originally put it. I guess if we’re being “prickish,” we could complain about the phrasing, but, again — don’t much care.
nightjar
Whew, for a second there I thought you were gonna quote Oprah in her “experience the stirrups” and the world would be a different place declaration.
And I’m just kidding with you Krista.
Jon H
“You see what I mean? Why should “Your pastor hates America” be okay but “You cry like a girl” be off limits?”
Especially when the supposedly “sexist” claims are not based on stereotypes, but on actual behavior of the candidate.
It’s not sexist to say a female candidate is over-emotional if she has, in fact, exhibited that trait. It would only be sexist if the candidate were being dismissed as over-emotional simply because she’s female.
Similarly, it’s racist to assume all Asian people are good at math. It would not be racist if an Asian mathematician’s work earned him or her the Fields medal.
JL
We should be proud that as a party we have a choice between two candidates who both have strengths and weaknesses but happen to be one black and one female. They are both far more capable than the repubs have to offer.
ThymeZone
I made a stab. I make that stab pretty regularly. But I don’t own the terms, the terms are out there. I am just trying to capture what I think their accepted meaning is at any given time. I think I am pretty close, but like I said, anyone who thinks I am wrong is free to seek consultation elsewhere.
I call out spoof. I announce ahead of time that I will. I do. I defend the practice. But since you don’t know the background, or hang around with spoofers, you don’t really understand what it’s all about. The fact is, I PROMOTE spoof. I would spoof myself, except that I am no good at it. But I definitely admire it, and enjoy it and hang around with spoofers for that reason.
The tactic of calling out spoofers serves a number of good purposes, which I have described before. For one thing, blurring the line … raising the possibility … actually helps the spoofers. It sharpens their game, it muddies the water around them so that their cover is better. Also, by making me the issue (“how dare you call me a spoof, you butthead!”) we distract from the seams between spoof and nonspoof. It’s all theater. That’s the point. It’s all theater.
And yes, when I suggest that a very large percentage of the traffic here is spoof, a good deal of the time, I am right. It is. The difference between you and me is that I generall y which is the spoof and which is not, but getting it exactly right isn’t necessary, or desirable. It serves no purpose.
Now, you may be wondering, what is a sincere non-spoofer to do? How to get through this blizzard of confusion?
Simple. Another question I have answered many times: The way to advance an argument here is to have, and make, a good argument. Construct it well and advance it well.
Ultimately, it is the arguments, the material, that carries the day. Not the posters. A really good, well made, well managed argument is what carries the day.
An old saying, Thunder is loud, but lightning does the work.
Wright lightning. The thunder is background noise, it’s cover. If you write lightning, it will get taken seriously.
Or, you can whine about how mean I am. Up to you.
Adam
TZ:
In reality I want all Clinton supporters — even spoofs — to leave because I’m an environmental terrorist reverse Obama supporter, who’s actually undercover as a sexist concern troll, who’s in fact simulating someone pretending to care about misunderstandings.
That was, like, totally a triple-secret persona, but I just wanted you to know you’d been suckered.
Jess
First, let me make clear that I’m not a Hillary supporter, and that she lost a lot of what respect I had for her when she started playing the gender card. But there is a powerfully negative effect when her gender is conflated with her negatives–not on her or her campaign, perhaps, but on young women who are trying to muster the courage and determination to compete in male-dominated fields themselves, and who witness the contempt that many people have for her gender as well as for her actions. This is where the harm lies–Hillary has no idea what you’re saying about her, TZ, so obviously you’re not hurting her, but when you argue that you can saying anything you like about her, even if it’s sexist, because she’s a jerk and deserves it, you insult many of us reading your comments who are not jerks, but who are pretty damn sick of the gender wars and their fallout into our own lives.
And yes, the Hillary nutcracker is sexist–it’s the sort of thing that teams men up in opposition to a tough woman because she’s tough and a woman. It suggests that there’s something unnatural, laughable, and maybe a bit creepy about that combination.
ThymeZone
ARghh. WRite lightning, not “wright” lightning.
I have to go to an appointment. You guys will have to insult each other without my help for a while. Give it all you got, don’t let up.
Kick that bastard in the junk, and tie that lady’s shoelaces together and watch her fall down.
Write lightning. Craft killer arguments. Slay each other with facts and logic.
And then gloat.
JL
I get a local weekly newspaper for free called the Roswell Beacon and they have a story about Obama this week..http://www.beaconcast.com/ and how they are watching the white supremacy groups because of his candidacy. One section mentions fear of blacks ”
“Are blacks becoming more hostile to whites?” inquires a recent entry posted on a link to The Council of Conservative Citizens homepage. “The success of the Obama campaign may be emboldening blacks to be aggressive to us on a national scale.”
Hillary and her supporters concerned about sexism can’t even compete with this.
Ted
I do a pretty good Gary Ruppert sometimes at Sadly,No!.
ThymeZone
In that case, I tip my hat.
Good job.
Adam
And the best argument is “taking a stab” at someone’s identity on the Internet. Non-falsifiable is the new substantive.
I just wanted to highlight the cool double entendre here. Thunderspoof!
The preceding comments are insincere. Maybe. Speaking only for myself. And the Sockpuppet Legion.
Stemler
Seriously, the amount of useless drivel and ad hominem going on here makes me really doubtful that blogs are the new media. Can’t you folks argue with out creating massive amounts of stupid, trivial bickering? I guess I expect too much from humanity.. in which case I can take great comfort in knowing that in 100 years you will all be dead.
Adam
Or apparently it was a triple entendre. We’ll never know the truth…
Signed,
ThymeZone
Krista
If the stirrups she’s talking about are the same ones I’m thinking of…oh honey, I wouldn’t wish that on anybody.
Adam
Damnit!
Dennis - SGMM
KO is saying that the Clintons are touting Karl Rove’s math in hyping Hillary’s electability.
Karl fucking Rove? I thought that I had mis-heard so I turned to teh Google and found this:
Wonder when she’s gonna’ get the Cheney endorsement.
Ted
Only retarded conservatives think blogs will replace the traditional media. The rest of us understand that they’re just the new bulletin boards.
Adam
shut up civility appeaser
nightjar
They is.
Punchy
Yes.
SATSQ.
Stemler
It’s interesting how insults get you record response times where as non-sequitors get you completely ignored. Are we just looking for a way to vent our aggression? I think so….
nightjar
I like to think of them as the unconscious mind of mankind, with a voice.
Adam
…Clearly someone outside this thread didn’t get the memo about spoofing, either. As an encore, in October the GOP is going to release their TOP SECRET CLASSIFIED Throw Dems In Briarpatch Plan.
Gee Hobbes, I hope Suzie doesn’t pick up this message and discover all of our secret plans. That would horrible.
Krista
Fixed for present company. :)
Stemler
Didn’t they say the same thing about CNN when it was first starting?
Pooh
Is TZ really claiming that he DOESN’T at least occasionally accuse/wonder about the degree of sockpuppetry from those whom he happens to disagree?
Conservatively Liberal
By whom?
If it is postings by individuals online that are the problem, what do you want Obama supporters to do? What are we supposed to do about something that is beyond our control?
If it is sexism in the press, what do you want Obama supporters to do? What are we supposed to do about something that is beyond our control?
Hillary supporters decry the sexism that they perceive is being used against Hillary, but the big question is, “What the heck are Obama supporters supposed to do about it?!”
Why do Hillary and her supporters believe that Obama and his supporters are responsible for any sexism displayed against their candidate? No solution is possible, but they continue to complain about it endlessly. It is as if every tiny bit of sexism is all Obama and his supporters fault.
The only thing I can come up with that would stop the complaints about sexism would be for the super delegates to give Hillary the win in the primary over Obama, who is in the lead. And if the win is not given to her, then some Clinton supporters vow to vote for John McCain.
The race is all but over, and everyone can see the writing on the wall. Everyone, even Hillary and her supporters. The closer we get to the end, the louder the protests are from the Hillary supporters. They are demanding that the sexism they perceive has to be addressed by Obama and his supporters, yet they know that there is no way for anyone to directly address sexism by an individual or in the media. There is no way possible that we could address it in a way that would pacify the Hillary supporters. Mission Impossible.
There is only one solution to this, as I noted above, and it is not going to happen. While I believe that the majority of Hillary’s supporters will vote for Obama, there are the hard core members who are threatening to actively work against Obama in the general.
While discussing the Hillary supporters who refuse to vote for Obama, and how her supporters will not admit that the end is here, a guest (Michelle Bernard?) on Hardball today said:
‘Hillary Clinton is becoming the Ron Paul of the Democratic party.’
Not an exact quote, but pretty damn close. But she is an AA, so she I am sure the Hillary supporters will tag her with whatever label fits best for them.
I disagree with her assessment though. I think some of Hillary’s more rabid supporters are acting like Ron Paul supporters, and it is rubbing off on their candidate.
If the foo shits, wear it.
nightjar
And now for something completely different, I give you Ollie and George do DC.
Dennis - SGMM
I’m still trying to understand why she would cite someone who is not only one of the nation’s leading Republican assholes but also someone whose math was so disastrously inaccurate in 2006. I guess the “Dewey Defeats Truman” guy was already dead so she went with Rove.
Just Some Fuckhead
Don’t drag me into this. I was actually secretly pulling for you.
Genine
I never said sexism had an impact on Hillary’s campaign other than it got more women to vote for her out of the “sisterhood” factor. (Which I’ve said is stupid). I never said sexism negatively affected Hillary’s campaign because people who won’t vote for her because of her sex, will take the same actions- sexist comments or not.
She lost completely on her own, I’ve said that many times. However, she HAS been the target of sexism.
That is all I said.
SamFromUtah
I’m still trying to understand why she would cite someone who is not only one of the nation’s leading Republican assholes but also someone whose math was so disastrously inaccurate in 2006.
Well, it’s not desperation. It’s absolutely anything other than grasping at straws. Her winning has never been more certain!!!!!!!11!
SamFromUtah
…um, that last comment of mine had a big bunch of exclamation points on the end that got et.
pencils
By Obama himself.
How soon we forget. That and more at your neighborhood Google.
Adam
Genine:
Show us your driver’s license, Spartacus!
Notorious P.A.T.
Proof
Delia
Well, here’s the way I see it. Way back before the primaries actually started, and the wingers thought Hillary was going to be the strongest candidate, she was subjected to a fair amount of the usual sexism that female Dem politicians get from the media. Remember that big kerfluffle about some V-neck top she wore. It was really pretty obnoxious and she wasn’t my candidate even then, although I hadn’t come to dislike her the way I do now. But it’s the sort of thing that any woman in politics is vulnerable to, so, like Genine, I don’t like to see it applied to anybody.
But that was a long time ago. A few weeks ago I was on one of the Hillary sites, I think it was TalkLeft, and someone had the temerity to suggest that attacks on Michelle Obama were analogous to the attacks Hillary had experienced as First Lady. Wow, did she get shot down in a hurry. They really want the freedom to go after Michelle in any fashion possible.
Ted
It’s interesting how you basically have nothing to say, but keep posting comments anyway. Are you just looking for a way to completely waste your time and not have a sense of humor whatsoever? I think so…
null pointer exception
Did you all see the pictures from the Obama rally in Oregon?
Just Some Fuckhead
Isn’t the point of superdelegates to have them decide the nominee? I’m not making a case for or against them but, historically, it seems like they were invented just for this purpose – to swing the nomination if they so choose.
As far as rendering the outcome unpalatable by one side or the other side:
Please. Just fucking please.
Like the HRC campaign isn’t already declaring every other damn thing in the Democratic primary illegitimate? Caucus states, states with open contests, states with two many African-Americans, the process of proportional delegate allocation, etc. etc. while on the other hand embracing the things most everyone has decided ARE illegitimate, specifically the Michigan and Florida contests and the wholly fabricated “popular vote”.
Many of the HRC supporters are lost to us, esp. if McCain can find an uncrazy Republican woman to put on the ticket. These folks would be lost to us with or without superdelegates. We don’t like to talk about it but many of them are of a certain age where the idea of voting for an African American candidate is a non-starter, more especially an uppity one who had the temerity to usurp HRC’s long-planned coronation.
It might have been a fucked-up Democratic primary for a lot of reasons, but certainly nothing to do with superdelegates.
El Doh
Yup. Elsewhere, that started a while back.
El Doh
I love that metric, because you *really* have to twist that to come out in Clinton’s favor.
The only way it works out for Clinton is to accept Florida, accept Michigan BUT give Obama zero (“he wasn’t on the ballot”) while Hillary gets her ~328K, AND then ignore the four caucus states that don’t release numbers even though there’s estimates available — because, no doubt, if we don’t know for sure, we shouldn’t count it.
Then, if you go through all those twists, you get Hillary ahead by about 26K votes, or 0.08%. All other counting methods put Obama ahead by more.
Of course, Kentucky could be an absolute goldmine for her, and there’s more registered Dems in Kentucky than there are in Oregon, so I expect her to extend her “lead” in that one dubious metric. The others, I don’t know.
John Cole
Ahh, the old periodically nonsense. That never gets old.
Mary
Someone obviously should have spent some time developing an immunity to iocaine powder.
El Doh
At least it’s slightly – but only slightly – more sane than the “flipped her the bird” claim that I still see cited regularly.
cleek
some of the sleuths over at h44 were insinuating that the pix were doctored. heh.
reid
TZ wrote:
Now I’m curious. What horrible thing could you have said to get banned? Did you call John a “t**t-punching c**t of a *****”?
ksmiami
okay, don’t flame me, but I hate them. I hate Geraldine Ferraro and her limosine liberal victimhood. I hate Hillary’s willingness to do anything and change the rules mid-stream. I hate the faux feminists who would threaten to vote McVain and throw away decades of true progress cause their “girl” didn’t get the nomination and mostly I hate that their behavior makes it less and less likely that a strong woman candidate (and that is not Hillary) will ever get elected president. I am a woman who has worked in male industries most of my adult life and I am embarrassed by these bitter harridans. I have had black friends with Harvard MBAs pulled over coming out of McKinsey consulting cause LA asshole cops couldn’t believe that they owned the BMWs they were driving. I am sure f**n Ferraro has never had that happen to her, so these so called feminists should shut the fuck up and admit that their candidate lost because she is a lousy politician. Period. okay… end of rant./
cbear
Would it be too much to ask that you claw your way back over TalkShit or NoQuarter and only return here periodically?
Just Some Fuckhead
What others have been trying to say is that none of these things are sexism. Even if a case could be made that they all deliberately happened and could be tied together in a larger narrative, it wouldn’t be sexism.
At best, it could be asserted that the protagonist displayed a sexist attitude; an attitude that is usually consonant with sexist behavior. But absent the consequences of such behavior, there is no case for sexism.
Or something..
Nikki
Ummm….pencils? I was referring to actual sexism like the “Iron My Shirt” sign and the references to HRC’s ankles and butt. Not that bullshit “periodically” nonsense. That’s as bad as the brouhaha over the word “niggardly.”
Breschau
The internet is just full of Little Miss Perpetual Outrages, all hoping to view for the title. I’ve been here since 1989 (back in the days of USENET), and I’m still amazed at the number of people who (nowadays) seem to be Googling non-stop until they find something, ANYTHING about which they can be outraged.
KRK
ksmiami, I’m with you 1000%. But unfortunately you had to go there:
Sexist!! !!
(Seriously, pencils, your “Obama’s a sexist” examples are beyond weak. People haven’t forgotten them, we just aren’t buying the OMG-did-you-hear-what-he-said spin.)
Ted
It’s not Obama’s fault that Hillary can still give rallies in high school gyms, while Obama can’t use anything less than a stadium or park.
Notorious P.A.T.
This place seems to have a good crop of posters. Why are some of them fighting with each other hammer and tongs? What did I miss?
Ted
lol
Breschau
And the fact that this it’s so close to
FWAP is just a bonus.
Cuz I’m pretty sure they think that’s all we do on the Intertubez all day anyway.
pencils
Well coming from someone who voted for Bush twice and was a member of that sexist party called the Republicans, I wouldn’t expect you to get it. Nixon in a pantsuit indeed.
Nikki
pencils is kwAck?
Breschau
I, for one, call shenanigans.
Please name this mailing list and the posters involved. Or hey, just give us a number of posters, and the number of spoof/sockpuppet/whatever-you-call-them-this-week accounts they are using.
Otherwise – stop hiding behind your anonymity, fuckhead. Man up or shut up.
I’ve been told by reliable sources that, unless these spoofers/sockpuppets are using different ISPs, this doesn’t seem to be the case here.
So – are they?
pencils
Those are great examples as well. I might add all the Obama supporters who people call her “the pantsuit”. Why isn’t Obama “the suit”? Simple, because a suit represents power and men don’t like to see their power symbols feminized.
As always, when a strong woman is in a position of power, the men (not all men, but usually ones directly competing with them) of the world can do nothing but freak out and tear her down.
Krista
Primary Fatigue Syndrome.
And pencils, that periodically bit was ridiculous. Anybody who claims that it was a sexist statement really needs to get outside more.
Just Some Fuckhead
In defense of John, he never voted for Nixon. And he won’t be voting for Nixon in a pantsuit either (although I bet he’d look cute as hell in a canary yellow number with a retro scarf tied smartly around his neck.)
*cue archival footage of JC fellating the corpse of Nixon*
Genine
Yes, only if slightly more sane means batshit crazy, as opposed to stone-cold fuck nuts.
I’m with ksmiami, too! I am so disgusted with so-called feminists, I no longer count myself among them. There have been several times I’ve disagreed with them over what they thought was sexist. But this campaign really revealed to me that a lot of them are the very thing they claim to be against.
They and wingnuts are two sides of a coin, imo.
nightjar
I’ve been pondering cbear and have come up with an idea so brilliant hit might light a thousand lightbulbs, or maybe a hundred. How about.
Commenting LIKE A Penis. hence the very cool CLAP acronym.
Genine
LOL! I always said they needed activities. They need something to do rather than think up this shit. It’s rather stupid.
cbear
WTF?
There’s a list? What list? Who has it? Am I on it? Is it because I said that shit about Lynne (aka Church Lady) last night? Is John Cole actually Joe McCarthy and he’s back from the dead? Is it going to be turned over to the TSA? Should I hide the porn and the 16 yr-old hookers? Will they be drug-testing? Oh God, I hope they don’t bring those dogs again–they shit all over the house.
I’m skeered, really skeered, somebody please hold me.
handy
Quick, somebody call 911, I think pencils is in need of a waahmbulance.
Just Some Fuckhead
I’m going to pretend that wasn’t hurtful and wasn’t aimed at me.
Ted
I bet Larry Johnson has some more breathless updates on some stories he’s been “developing”. You should head over there and get them while they’re hot off the padded walls.
Darkrose
Only if you look like Sean Bean’s Oliver Mellors.
Then, you can say anything you want, especially if it ends in “take off your clothes”.
Krista
There, there. It’s okay.
/pats Just Some Fuckhead’s shoulder.
Xenos
Carly Fiorina was on the talking heads circuit last week, and if McCain is clever enough to go for a non-politician, she could be an excellent choice. As smart as Hillary, with none of the shameless, disingenuous bullshit, and able to raise serious money from Wall Street. Plus, all the fund managers would be delighted to get her permanently out of the HP boardroom.
cbear
I like it nightjar, but lil’ cbear makes 90% of my decisions for me already and I’m not sure I want him typing my comments too. Plus, although I’m sure he could quickly learn to be proficient on the laptop, I’m not sure he could reach the keyboard of the desktop—-except in those “special circumstances”.
Just Some Fuckhead
There’s a colon semi-joke in here somewhere.
El Doh
I once read about diagnosing degrees of insanity, and “batshit crazy” and “stone-cold fuck nuts” were actually listed as some of the greater degrees of derangement.
It must be true, because I read it on the internet. ;)
Beware the ODS types. You wouldn’t want them to hold their breath at you, now would you?
Third Eye Open
Fuckhead…I just don’t get this image; is it like a skull fuck? Does it entail a round of peek-a-boo past the event horizon of the Vag-Vortex?
Someone please shine some light on this for me, please.
Xenos
Genine-
Re fed up with establishment feminists – Are you boomer or post-boomer? I have heard your lament from many latter-boomers (a/k/a ‘Jones) and gen-xers. Not that I want to stir up the incredibly boring gen-* wars, but there is a difference in political styles and baggage that can account for a lot of what you observe.
I am developing a theory of ‘ex post facto feminism’ for those of us (male and female) trying to deal with things on a practical rather than ideological level.
Not to diss the last generation – I was re-reading a Steinem collection last month, and damn if she was not right about nearly everything.
AkaDad
I appreciate these threads where we all come together and bond.
Conservatively Liberal
Shorter Hillary supporter, holding loaded pistol to head: ‘I’m gonna do it! I’m gonna blow my head off if I don’t get what I want!‘
Good! It’s nice when the herd thins itself automatically.
empty
LOL.
Cain
No.. was it a good rally?
cain
Cain
You must be new here. In a 100 years, I’m going to hand my handle to a sockpuppet and he or she will carry on my good name.
cain
Just Some Fuckhead
Don’t laugh, you’re next.
Jon H
She’s not *in* the HP boardroom, and hasn’t been since 2005.
Also, she has a major drawback: She’s done a lot of lobbying of Congress for increases in the H-1B visa cap. That might not go over too well. (And the lobbying itself might be an issue.)
Cain
Genine,
I wouldn’t worry about all the stuff today. You did make one fatal mistake, you showed you were offended and that is always a license to get jumped on around here. :-)
That said, I guess I’d probably be upset too if I got grouped into a bunch of losers who I have no relationship with at all.
cain
nightjar
Crazy-Glue blogging?
Ted
The real question is, when after we tell these Hillary dead-enders that we flat out don’t give a shit if they vote for McCain, will they finally STFU about it? These lunatics would vote for Bush if he were on the ballot in November instead of McCain. I just don’t care anymore what they have to say.
The Other Steve
Does anybody know when Hillary will be giving her speech announcing she’s abandoning her bid?
Just Some Fuckhead
Seventy fucking thousand people. I was going to go to one of his thingies here in Virginia but a few thousand people showed up and I’m crowd-averse.
I guess that’s one good thing about being an HRC supporter. You can show up late to her rallies and get front row seats.
The Other Steve
How about we just tell them now?
Jon H
Nah, we’re just too nice to call her ‘pants’ (UK usage).
Actually, I think it’s because ‘pantsuit’ is just kind of a funny word, like ‘spats’, or ‘lederhosen’. Why not just call it a suit? Since men’s suits also have pants, the prepending of ‘pant’ just seems superfluous.
AkaDad
Everyone here knows that my spoof persona is a DILF.
Dreggas
Looks like some women are fighting back, or at least planning to, against the stupidity of the “Hillary Supporters Count Too” and the Ferraro horseshit.
Conservatively Liberal
Nice. Really nice. Why just respond to their statement when you can comment about their race too!
* – My highlighting.
Just Some Fuckhead
I’m wearing a suit to work tomorrow because I’m leaving early to go to a funeral. So you can say my power symbol is being “funeralized”. Ha!
Conservatively Liberal
JSF, cain worked at that rally for Obama in Portland…lol!
Breschau
Okay, seriously dude – change your nick. I mean, if I posted as “Just Another Wingnut”, I too might spend my entire day wondering if the BJ commenters were talking about me.
But, then again, probably not.
(At the very least, assume they are only talking about people *like* you, not just people that *are* you.)
(But, going by TZ’s previous posts – there’s probably at least a 50% chance that you actually are TZ in a spoof/sockpuppet/phrase-of-the-day account. And if so – uhh… fuckhead.)
Bey
As a menopausal-boomer-white-haired-grandma-feminist, I gotta say one thing:
The Clinton maenads scare the crap out of me. They are unhinged and so clearly ready to ruin their daughters’ futures in a fit of pique that it’s shocking.
In fact, they’re the very definition of the bitter, old, thrown-out-for-the-newer-model, used up and vengeful harridan stereotype we’ve fought against for a generation or two now.
Breschau
I’m going to hit every possible sexism meme possible in one post:
You GO, girl!
BethanyAnne
I hate that “Iron My Shirt” BS. Some shock-jock sends a pair of flunkies out to make sexist asses of themselves, and I get to hear about it over and over with the connotation that “this is what the Obama supporters are like”. Gah! Not that anyone on this list went there, but I’ve seen that repeated on TalkHillary, and I bet it’s a common meme at NoQuarter and Taylor Marsh.
Cain
Yeah, you’d probably pretty crowd aversed for this one too. :)
I was being facetious about it being a good rally. I was there, and one of the 300 volunteers in putting that together. Those guys know exactly what to do.. very impressive.
cain
dr. bloor
Oh no, let’s not go there again…
Cain
So when did you start having this attraction to Dads? That’s some kinky shit.. I’m assuming DILF is Dads I like to Fuck, right?
cain
demimondian
Because at the time it was introduced, a woman’s suit consisted of a silk blouse, a tailored jacket, and a skirt. The “pantsuit” was novel because it included (shock, shock!) a pair of slacks…PANTS!
ksmiami
Glad to see I am not alone in my interpretation. IF these b**s want to vote McCain, he can have them. I don’t give a shit and Obama is probably talented enough to win without them. Back of the bus indeed, as a former rugby player, how about we just kick their whining semantics-obsessed asses off the bus.
Just Some Fuckhead
Ok, seriously dude rightbackatcha. Yer taking this anonymous commenting shit way too seriously.
Cain
I’ll be trollin for votes tomorrow at Obama HQ!
cain
demimondian
Not quite. I would think it would be “Dad I’d Like to Fuck”. Although, in the case of AkaDad, I’m more partial to “Dude I’d Like to Forget”, or, perhaps “Dud I’d Like to Forego”.
Just Some Fuckhead
Kewl. CL made it sound like you were pickpocketing.
Genine
Xenos,
I think generation definitely has something to do with it. Older women did face a lot of discrimination and whatnot and its understandable they still carry a lot of… stuff from that. It’s like in the AA community. I’m in my early 30’s, and my mother and her siblings and whatnot are in their 60’s and 70’s. They also grew up in the South. They still carry some anger about how they were treated.
But what gets to me are some of the crap that “feminists” my age and younger say. For instance, I know two women who were speaking with a man about current events. The man was very snide and condescending. They were offended, as was their right. But they attributed his attitude to sexism. I knew the man and I explained, it wasn’t sexism. He’s just an asshole. He talks that way to everyone, male or female. But they wouldn’t listen to me, they just wanted to think it was sexism. Another example was when Obama, when asked if Hillary should drop out, said. “I think she can run as long as she wants to.” I actually had a “debate” (Can you really debate something like that?) on whether that was sexist or not. I didn’t think it was sexist. Things like this says a lot more about the “feminists” than it does about the target of the criticism.
I think it’s a power issue. I have no data or hard facts, just observation. I think there are some women that feel disempowered and this is their way of feeling empowered- for good or ill. The women I know who engage in this behavior feel very disempowered, personally, and so they use this as some sort of compensation.
Please note I am not saying all feminists do this.
But it’s all identity politics and I DO think that identity politics is less of a factor in younger generations than it is in older generations. I think this trend will continue. Thank goodness!
demimondian
And why do you think he put the event together?
Bey
It’s so juvenile that I just roll my eyes. The guys with the sign look like jackasses even to those it initially elicits a snort from. Rather like a 10 year old’s fart joke – it’s intended to impress by it’s shockingness.
Those who really believe it are so far beyond the reach of reasoned discourse, that they aren’t worth a millisecond of your time.
Just Some Fuckhead
Don’t be too sure. There’s a reason young people are voting for the young candidate in overwhelming numbers. Wait for it..
Identity politics!
AkaDad
LOL
Genine
LOL You’re right! You know, its funny- it’s very hard to offend me and its funny the things that do offend me.
Call me the c-word? I shrug it off, I don’t care. You’re an idiot. Call me the N word? Same thing. Imply that I may be a Clintonista? What!? How DARE you! That’s HORRIBLE! I’m gonna kick your ASS!
LOL!
Genine
Actually, I disagree with that. I think a lot of younger people (geez! I say that like I’m old:P) are voting for Obama because of his style of politics and he represents change. I think younger voters are attracted to change rather than youth. If Obama was acting like Clinton or McCain, I don’t think we’d see the same enthusiasm.
Of course, I could be wrong.
pencils
…and about the claw remark.
Bey
Exactly.
Iron my shirt = asshole
Conservatively Liberal
Naah, it means ‘Dudes I’d like to Fellate’.
You’ll probably get them!
He was. The Ron Paul supporters. He ended up with five empty wallets.
Adam
SPARTACUS IZ SERIOUS BUSINESS K?
Breschau
Well, no – not really. I just take advantage of any situation that opens itself up to an decent one-liner or two. (Even if I have to be convuluted to get there.)
Conservatively Liberal
Now that is just flat out funny! :D
nightjar
Saint Hilldy of the Arc hangin’ with teh Boy’s.
Bey
Pencils, if you have to reach that far to be offended there’s no hope for you.
At no time has Obama ever indicated that he believes Clinton is unfit for the presidency because she’s a woman.
There’s no there there dude.
KRK
Genine,
FWIW (not much), I saw that early post by TZ and thought — what’s Genine’s name doing there?
pencils
Since the Obama-wing of the Democratic party have shut out Hillary, even though she leads in the popular vote count, she needs to either run an independent campaign or as an official write in. I favor the former. I disagree with punishing the down ticket. If Hillary does not have enough time to do either, thus handing the general to McCain, we’ll need some sort of safety net.
Adam
Hmm… I did defend you, but OTOH you got pretty mad pretty quick in the first post on this thread. To be fair, TZ wasn’t even grouping you in with myiq and pluk as being “full of shit” like you seemed to take it.
Personally, I’d think it better to be called wrong than insincere. TZ’s phrasing was kinda weird (“at least two”) but I thought it was pretty clear you were in the former group.
pencils
Of course not, directly. Did they have to use the n-word in the Harold Ford ad?
Adam
Also I just remembered that I did make one sockpuppet comment once, so that was inaccurate. I posted as “Jonah Goldberg,” I think because John was acting like the FUCKING FASCIST LIBERAL he is and I felt like an accusation of fascism is pretty serious so I needed a name that would add some, like, actual intellectual integrity and weight to my argument. Wow, I feel much better now that I have a clean conscience.
Bey
You can’t be seriously equating the two.
And, with that, you’ve used all the milliseconds I’ve budgeted for you.
mightygodking
…if you count Michigan as zero votes for Obama and ignore all the caucus states, of course, which is patently intellectually dishonest as regards any claim of “winning the popular vote.”
cbear
Pencils is only here to whack the ugly, purplish, engorged head of sexism, as it rises, throbbing with malevolent intent, from the comments sections of pro-MUP blogs like BJ.
She has learned, probably through hard experience, that it is better to beat it off at it’s root, before it has a chance to spew its demon seed all over the body politic.
That about sum it up, pencils?
ksmiami
Pencils – Hillary is only ahead in the vote on Planet Mars. Frankly, I am really starting to resent all this faux concern for FL. It’s just crap. I live in Miami and the FL vote should not count; there was no campaigning and people knew going into the vote that it would not count. Ergo, many people blew it off and drank mojitos in South Beach cabron.
Hillary made a lot of strategic errors in her campaign and that is why she lost. She also had a horrible misread on the electorate and offered a mealy-mouthed centrism when the country wanted more.
Genine
Thanks!
Oh, I know TZ didn’t lump me in with pluk and myiq, but he did say I was full of shit and he did seem to think I was saying sexism negatively impacted Clinton’s campaign. I was not saying that at all. He also lumped me with Geraldine for goodness’ sake! That’s just wrong. Of course, I could be wrong and I apologize if I was too harsh to TZ. But even the thought of being lumped in with a bunch of hypocrites triggers me fast! lol
Ted
Newsflash!: NO. ONE. HERE. GIVES. A. SHIT. Do you understand? We JUST DON’T CARE if you’re going to hand the White House to McCain. We really don’t. So shut the fuck up, and go back to your loony bin. When this is all over, and if you achieve your goal of a McCain presidency, we actual Democrats (as opposed to Hillarycrats) will know PRECISELY who to blame. You’ll be part of the Nader voters of ’08.
Go back to your suicide cult blogs, because your comments about not voting for the nominee (Obama) will not persuade anyone here to somehow magically give the nomination to Hillary instead.
Delia
Has anybody else checked out pencil’s linked site, dedicated to the, um, victimology of Hillary’s many neglected fans and still trying to raise money for the poor, demonized lady. Not up to the looneytoons of Hillaryis44 or the sublime NoQuarter, but what is? Yet still, pencil has set herself an impressive agenda, coming here to convert the heathen. Too bad most of them have already voted and aren’t impressed with whining.
pencils
Well given that this site takes forever to post a comment…
Ted
…if you count Michigan as zero votes for Obama and ignore all the caucus states, of course, which is patently intellectually dishonest as regards any claim of “winning the popular vote.”
pencils
Your mocking only makes my point.
pencils
Where did I state I would never vote for Obama? I’ll give you a hint, I didn’t. I think he’s a misogynist of the worse order, but on the other hand there is McCain calling his wife a whore. He’s just as bad.
I stated Obama will loose and that I think Hillary should run an independent campaign. Sticking words in my mouth just makes you look like a wingnut
Ted
Forgive me, my last comment had the quoting reversed.
El Doh
If Hillary did that, she too would lose, then she would lose her senate seat.
cbear
From pencil’s blog-
Aren’t you worried that the stray cats might come back and cover them up again?
Conservatively Liberal
Upgrade your Commodore-64 and 300 baud modem and you will get better performance.
Delia
No it doesn’t, pencils (if that is your name). Because you’ve spent incredible energy belaboring metaphors that are probably not sexist at all (“claws” and “periodically.”) Or you pick up on the actions of some old jerks (the “Iron My Shirts” guys) who were probably leftovers from the old Clinton-haters of the 90s and for whom there’s absolutely no proof they had anything to do with the Obama campaign. You whine and whine about this stuff and that’s why people mock you. Not just men, but younger women (and Genine is right — younger women have a different view of feminism than boomers do), but also boomer women like me who are sick of crappy thinking and actions. I mock you, too.
Ted
That makes you insane. Again, we don’t care.
Hillary runs an independent campaign, and Obama loses. It’s that simple. That makes you a McCain supporter. Congratulations!
Now, since your commenting here and lying about Hillary’s popular vote count won’t do a damn thing to save her candidacy (since that’s impossible now), why do you waste your time? Run along!
Bob In Pacifica
One of the ironies circulated in 1984 was Geraldine Ferraro’s friendship with Roy Cohn. Maybe not so ironic the more we get to know her.
Conservatively Liberal
Makes your point do what? Inquiring minds want to know!
Bob In Pacifica
At least the Clinton camp calling it “a slap in the face” isn’t like calling it “a slap on the ass.”
ThymeZone
Genine, et al ….
1. I’m a take no prisoners debater.
2. My style is pretty predictable. I go long early, and short late. After bashing the crap out of you, I will open a door to agreement. See my 6:22 pm list of questions. If we can agree on those, even approximately, then we won’t have an argument. If not, well, we gave it a shot.
cheers,
TZ
pencils
Yes my parents named me “pencils”. My lord, it’s called a handle.
cbear does a better job, might want to leave it to him.
pencils
That you Obama supporters have a misogynistic streak a mile wind. Of course I don’t expect you to get it.
Ted
Shit, at this point, Obama could mention in a speech the necessity of good stewardship of the national “purse strings”, and cry-babies like pencils here would be screaming “sexism!”. I just wish they’d STFU.
Delia
[Sigh]
Note to self: next time pick on someone with some vestige of a sense of humor.
Punchy
I hate the fucking sexism in this Dem nommy.
That said, Hillary’s got an ass to bounce a quarter off of. I’d tap that if I had to, or after 5 beers, whichever cums first.
But I hate sexism.
SamFromUtah
Genine said: I think younger voters are attracted to change rather than youth.
I agree. I mean, when I was 19 and getting ready to vote in my first presidential election, a 46-year-old candidate, a 60-year-old candidate, and a 72-year-old candidate were all “old”.
Church Lady
If Zuzu can change her name, so can I. The artist fomerly known as Lynne will know be known as Church Lady, due to the popular demand of cbear (and it will cut down on his typing and perhaps save his eyesight).
I’d love to re-enter the gender wars, but I’m just too damn tired. My husband and I have to move our daughter into her new apartment this weekend, so I have to go to Oxford tomorrow to help pack up the current abode.
I’d tell everyone to play nice while I’m gone, but after reading tonight’s thread, hell will freeze over first.
SamFromUtah
..erm, not “were all old”, “would all have been old” asfarasIwasconcerned, you know.
nightjar
Well bully for you. Of course America ranks misogyny right up there with the war in Iraq and the tanking economy in important issues to consider this fall. Did someone open the idiot gate and let these people run around unsupervised? Christ on a fucking crutch, I’m gonna pull my hair out before November.
nightjar
Oh, just fuck off pencils.
Conservatively Liberal
Ok. How fast is that wind, and what does wind have to do with misogyny?
SHARPEN MY PENCILS!
cbear
I find myself unexpectedly swayed to your position by your discerning eye for talent and your gracious acknowledgement of that fact.
May I subscribe to your newsletter? Or perhaps you can direct me to the nearest altar of your Sun Queen —–so that I might prostrate myself before it in a display of my utter obeiseance and newfound fealty?
AkaDad
To be fair, pencils does have a sense of humor, periodically, as far as I know.
John S.
Ya! And I heard that their brains are 2/3 the size of a Hillary supporter and that they sink if you throw them in water…
Seriously, what manner of bullshit is this?
Ted
Ok, pencils succeeded in persuading me. I just used my powers to give Hillary the nomination. Pencils’s lying comments here were extremely effective.
cbear
Good for you, Lynne. It’s always heartening to see that some people can take a joke and respond well.
Good luck with the move.
Conservatively Liberal
Typical male, bragging about having a prostrate. Wait! I have one too? Kewl! Now I feel like somebody!
Punchy
I think it’s sexist to bring us Hillary’s womanhood, her post-menapausal inconsistencies, and her bad eyeshadow.
Although it’s clear why she’s so lost in this primary. Lost is what they do. Chicks….
God damn I hate sexist stereotypes.
Conservatively Liberal
I love the rabid Hillary supporters. They are so cute and cuddly!
What a sweetie!
Xenos
Ypur whole argument, as far as I can tell, derives from this point – that Hillary has the lead in the popular vote. As noted above, this does not include the caucus states. How can your argument from principle fail to apportion some sort of value to the supporters from the caucus states? This argument lacks internal consistency, and is rightfully considered to be without merit.
If there is some other metric by which Hillary deserves the support of the superdelegates, please let me know. Otherwise, I’m calling shenanigans on the whole pro-Hillary venture. You are being dishonest, or enormously stupid, or you are some sort of spoof.
Conservatively Liberal
Interesting post at Hillaryis44:
Now this is interesting. Is this group another operation out of Hillaryis44 and NQ? This person is saying that they would like to ‘triple check’ the facts. Do they already have info that shows that this is another rat op from the rabid rangers?
Something to keep an eye on. Hill Hags’ ‘Wonk’ said that they were investigating something and to stay tuned. I wonder if this is it?
Church Lady
Xenos,
Can you define that spoof vs. sockpuppet thing again? TZ’s explaination confused me, dumbass woman that I am. Oops – does saying that about myself make me a sexist too? The pain, the pain.
Church Lady
That’s Church Lady to you cbear. :)
dave
Caucuses are machine politics pure and simple. It’s not about a popular vote. I’ve caucused, I know. There’s so much wrangling in those rooms, it has nothing what so ever to do with the will of the people.
dave
/snark
(for the obviously dull points in the room)
Genine
TZ,
To answer your questions-
1. Do you argue that sexism is in any way responsible for the fate of Clinton’s campaign? No. I never did. Clinton is the reason she is in second place- not sexism.
2. Do you think that “for the man” is more sexist than “for the woman” as a voting choice? No. If gender if the basis of the vote- its sexism.
3. Do you think that gender is a legitimate distinction in making a voting choice? No. To vote “for the woman” is just as bad as voting “for the man”.
4. Do you think HRC is a victim of something? HRC HAS been the target of some sexism. Just as Obama has been the target of some racism. But, like I said before, I do not think her gender is the reason behind her problems, why she is disliked and why she has not gotten enough votes.
So HRC has been a target of sexism. But, more importantly, she is the victim of her own hubris, mismanagement and lack of ethics.
Anyway, I must get some sleep.
Good night.
Chuck Butcher
Since I wouldn’t like Hillary any better as a man, does that make me sexist? Cripes, the woman has spent her life calculating the odds of tipping over versus the immediate gain and there isn’t a person like that I wouldn’t want to slap.
As for TZ’s persona, it really has to be a persona, you wouldn’t survive long if it were real.
Delia
I think it’s sexist to bring us the Boy King jerking off in a flight suit, although that’s apparently what he did. Damn, but the fools who vote still seem to buy into that nonsense.
John Cole
If Hillary had won more caucuses, would we be debating this?
And what does it say that the Clinton machine, with their almost 20 year advantage, got smoked? Either gross incompetence, or they have made A LOT of enemies. I think both.
Andrew
HOW IN THE FUCK DO THE CORNER IDIOTS NOT CHOKE TO DEATH ON THEIR SHOELACES?
HOW ABOUT 8000, YOU FUCKING IDIOT. HOW DO THESE FUCKING MORONS HAVE JOBS WHEN THEY CANNOT USE GOOGLE?
What in the living fuck is wrong with these people?
Delia
Genine has to get some sleep. I have to go watch scifi dvd’s until I’m sleepy. Goodnight.
El Doh
Nothing. They’re liars, and they know there’s enough idiots out there that will accept everything they write at face value.
Conservatively Liberal
Good point, but I hope you saw the /snark tag too. ;)
On another note:
I guess Hillary addressed the sexism she has had to endure from the ‘media, pundits and others’ during her campaign, in a talk after church yesterday. When asked if she thought there has been any racism in the election so far, she said ‘no’.
Well, that answers that!
Ninerdave
SATSQ
The Other Steve
You know nothing of caucuses.
I’ve caucused in both Iowa and Minnesota over the years. Iowa is the only state which spends it’s time wrangling. The others just come and cast a ballot, just like a primary except it occurs at night only.
Conservatively Liberal
Try that again:
Good point John, but I hope you saw the /snark tag too. ;)
Someone gave them a job that they aren’t qualified for?
TheFountainHead
I love Balloon Juice. Penculs and Sqwuak have had me in stitches all night.
And I have an idea, after November, do you think we could have a fundraiser to purchase Hillaryis44.com’s domain name and bandwidth for John’s use, since they won’t be needing it any longer?
Ninerdave
I didn’t think I needed it, then I started scanning the thread…another one for the pie filter.
Conservatively Liberal
And Hillary’s attack against the media continues; immediately after denying there has been racism in this campaign, Hillary sez:
Well, she rejected racism (as a problem in the campaign), so now all she needs to do is reject sexism and all will be ponies, rainbows and flowers!
Jeez, this is too easy.
In other news:
The Mighty Morphin Power Rangers attempts to save Hillary Clinton’s campaign are for naught. The Power Rangers have been defeated, and now we are doomed.
Word has just come in that a misogynistic Obama supporter is starting a blog for fellow misogynists. When asked for a response, one Obama supporter said “Great!”. We have not asked the Obama campaign for their response, nor do we think we need to.
In a recent visit to Montana, Barack Obama was adopted by the Crow Indian Nation. Since he is now an honorary tribal member, Obama will never have to eat crow again, but instead he will be able to sit down and eat dinner with his fellow Crow tribe members.
We will return after this commercial break.
Do you suffer from the steady ‘drip, drip, drip’ of Gonorrhea? Have we got the answer for your problem!
Peter Rooter,
That’s the name!
You just flush your troubles,
Down the drain!
TheFountainHead
Yeah, but Captain Planet and his band of merry pre-teens with decoder rings haven’t weighed in it…DO NOT DESPAIR!
THIS IS NOWHERE NEAR OVER!
THIS IS SPARTA!!!
Studly Pantload
This thread reminds me of a scene from “Family Guy”; specifically, the episode where The Family Griffin is left for an extended period of time without Lois’ “services,” whereupon li’l Stewie Griffin arrives in the litter-strewn living room dragging behind him a diaper filled with, like, 20 pounds of baby excrement, gagging, “I can’t take this any more…”
Time for a new thread?
PS: A joke for the HillaNaziFems:
Dude walks into a cannibals’ butcher shop, wants to buy some brains. Sees female brains for $3.99/lb, male brains for $32.99/lb. Asks the cannibal butcher why the price discrepancy. Because male brains are so superior? Butcher replies, “Heck no. Do you know how many men it takes to make a pound of brains?”
Good night! I’m here all week! Don’t forget to tip your
hookerstate-accredited sex worker!Ninerdave
That’s a very misogynist name, you should be ashamed.
Studly Pantload
So my wife, Trollopy Pantload, reminds me almost daily. =(
Delia
Whoa. In the O’Loofah segment inteview with the Clinton supporters who are going to leave the Democratic party if their idol doesn’t win, isn’t one of the interviewees our friend pencils?
I . . . I feel so irritated. To be annoyed online by someone who’s even annoying to Bill O’Reilly. What are the odds?
I’m done with my sci fi show and I’m going to sleep now. good night.
Conservatively Liberal
I think ‘Trollopy Topheavy’ sounds better. ;)
Perry Como
Anti-diaper fetishist!!!
Conservatively Liberal
Or you could go with ‘Trollopy Cameltoe’ if you want to keep the tight pants analogy.
;)
protected static
Okay, TZ – I’ve got my asbestos Underoos on and some good bourbon in my system, so (without reading into the thread any further) I’m calling bullshit. I despise Clinton with every fiber of my being, but you can’t tell me that her negatives, which have been fed by Rush and his ilk for 15+ years now, have nothing to do with sexist attacks upon her. That’s just, well… pure, unalloyed stupidity.
In addition to field-grade stupidity, it could be willful ignorance. Or deliberate shit-stirring. Not that any of those three categories are mutually exclusive.
Ever since she’s announced her candidacy, Hillary has had a national ceiling of support at 42% or so, a little more, a little less depending upon the polls. Having been part of the street-fighting Left in DC during the Clinton years, having listened to Ollie North and G. Gordon Liddy on the radio, having dealt with the right wing smear machine and their foot soldiers first hand, I feel quite comfortable stating that the sexist attacks upon Hillary really only went into remission as long as she was content to remain the junior Senator from NY. Once she announced, that filth came burbling back to the surface and has been as much of a drag against her as her vote in favor of AUMF.
I am not a fan of the Clintons. I hate them and the DLC machine that they represent. Got it? But acknowledging the sexist bile that has been directed her way for over a decade does not discount her weakness as a Presidential candidate, nor does it constitute an endorsement of her candidacy. Neither does it imply that the Obama campaign has been deliberately feeding these attacks. It simply acknowledges that sexism, some with deep-seated roots, some more recent, has played a role in derailing Clinton’s campaign.
pencils
Luckly I checked in just before bed.
Thank you. This is exactly what I’ve tried, albeit badly, to convey.
pencils
While I’m up I need to mention the abject sexism of the mainstream press has been appalling.
With that I bid the community good night.
Calouste
Doesn’t look like these people have been following the news much over the last few years…
Adam
I wish there was a wingnut CAPTCHA: if they want to make a comment they have to respond to any given news story with all the “Clintons” switched for “Obama” and vice versa.
Byrd endorses Obama: “OMG HE WUZ IN THE KLAN LULZ”
If Byrd endorsed Clinton: “OMG Proves Obama Can’t Win
RacistsWhite Voters”Obama ahead in popular vote: “Superdelegates should decide for themselves, that’s how the system was designed”
Clinton ahead in popular vote (assuming including the two unincluded states, and no MI votes for Obama at all — because that’s only fair — and no caucuses, because the votes can’t be counted, um, accurately?): “Superdelegates should respond to the will of the people, anything else would be undemocratic”
Obama smacks down Wright after he goes crazy: “Obama is a lying flipflopper”
Hillary claims she was ducking sniper fire: “MEDIA BIAS! OBVIOUSLY WUZ JUST SLEEP DEPRIVED”
75K people turn out to see Obama: “THOSE PICTURES WERE OBVIOSLY DOCTORED”
If Hillary managed to fill an arena: “OMG MASSIVE COMEBACK I bet the media won’t give this any play”
Obama defends his wife: “I can’t stand Michelle Obama she’s
uppitymean and she shouldn’t get special treatment”MSNBC anchor makes comment about “pimping” Chelsea: “WTF FIRE THAT FUCKER, You can’t drag her daughter into the campaign muck”
ThymeZone
So, Rush Limbaugh is a puppeteer directing the sentiments of Democrats in general, and in particular, primary voters?
I.Did.Not.Know.That. Can you show me the data that supports your assertion that Limbaugh’s idiotic, adolescent rants have had a deleterious effect on Clinton’s performance in the Dem primaries?
Because I don’t see it, and I don’t buy it.
You are totally full of shit.
Took you two months of the Rampant Sexism(c) scam to come up with that?
Sorry, back to the drawing board. That’s funny, really.
Good one.
protected static
Hey… There are none so blind and all that, eh?
Fuck you, TZ. Did I say that? No. What has happened is that 15+ years of sexist attacks has had an impact on Clinton’s campaign. Let me repeat what I said: I. Hate. Her. I. Am. Not. A. Clinton. Supporter.
Were those words short enough? I backed Dean last time around, Edwards this time around, and now I’m backing Obama. And I still think that sexism played a role in ending Clinton’s campaign. It doesn’t make me wish she’d won; it makes me wish the last 15 years had gone differently.
So fuck you. Let me know when you’ve addressed those reading comprehension issues, ‘kay?
OriGuy
I think Obama would look hella better in a Plains Indian headress than Calvin Coolidge did, but it looks like he’s smart enough not to let himself be photographed in one.
As far as Carly Fiorina for McCain’s VP, all I (HP employee) have to say is that GWB only fucked up relatively small companies.
ThymeZone
Good job Genine. The only point where we’d differ is on the matter of voting for a gender. I think that any correct assessment of a candidate’s characteristics is a legitimate basis for making a choice. If I think I don’t like the idea of a woman president, that is a valid choice and I will make it. If I were a woman and chose not to vote for a man if I have a woman on the ticket, then that’s valid too. I don’t necessarily agree with it, but it’s valid. I might think it’s stupid to put that consideration first, but that’s just an opinion. There’s nothing shameful about doing it.
I personally would like to see a woman president. However, Hillary is not that woman. I might go with Janet Napolitano. She is smart, tough and very very politically savvy. But … I don’t know if she is likeable enough on the national scale, and she is gay, so that would almost certainly work against her electability. But I like her a lot. She is honest and forthright to a fault. A former US Attorney.
Munsil tried to start a whisper campaign about Napolitano’s lifestyle. My little red state said a hearty Fuck You to him and his GOP cronies.
Anyway, whatever bashes or lumping-ins you took from me, withdrawn.
I tend to lose track of names and handles around here so if you get caught in the crossfire, sorry in advance.
Tattoosydney
Pencils,
Let’s for a moment accept that there has been an ongoing element of sexism against Clinton which has meant that she has been disadvantaged in the campaign….
Can you point me to one, concrete example of sexism where Obama has been responsible – one thing that he has said or done that is sexist, such that all of the people on your Hillary 1000 website are justified in saying that they will not vote for him?
To put it another way, if Hillary has been defeated by sexism, how is that Obama’s fault?
ThymeZone
Yes, and your entire stupid post is complete bullshit.
Show me the correlation between “sexist attacks’ and Clinton’s primary performance. Or else STFU, you have no idea what you are talking about.
By correlation I mean data, facts, not your useless assertions. Do you have anything?
I didn’t think so.
protected static
Jeezus. You are fucking ignorant. Show me where I said that 15 years of Republican propaganda turns into Rush being a puppet-master.
It’s about slow, incremental, cumulative damage, like the brain damage done by mercury to 18th Century hatters. You seem like you should know something about incremental brain damage – that is, unless you suffered a tragic auto-erotic asphyxiation accident and incurred your deficit all at once…
Do you favor one wetsuit with your dildo, or two?
ThymeZone
Uh, no, unless you have some empirical evidence of that, let’s not. Because it is pure bullshit.
And for extra credit, can you explain how a candidate that claims to have “won the popular vote” can also claim that she lost due to “sexist attacks?”
Did the “sexist attacks” lead to a plurality of votes which, diabolically, worked against her?
Is the dirty little secret that Clinton just got “too many votes” and that’s how she was victimized?
Hmm. Inter–esting.
{ touches finger to nose }
ThymeZone
Here, the real tragedy of Ramant Sexism(c) is revealed.
Pummeled by sexist insults, Clinton claims an excess of votes has cost her the nomination.
Jesus wept.
ThymeZone
Yeah, that’s really a brilliant argument you are making there. Really.
Give it up, dude. You are in way over your head.
Tattoosydney
Except for some black guy who some people have told me is also running for election this year, and who a lot of people voted for ….
The stupid burns in that one…
protected static
No, it’s not pure bullshit. Ever since starting the campaign, she’s consistently had high unfavorable ratings, and a nationwide approval ceiling in the low- to mid-forties. She started this campaign with multiple handicaps: the health care fiasco, her association with the DLC, her vote in favor of the Iraq War, and… the negative impressions of her fed in part by sexist attacks over the years.
It’s not the whole reason, it doesn’t strike me as being the biggest reason, but to say it hasn’t been a reason at all is just as stupid as saying that racism hasn’t played a role in the primaries at all (and, since I know you’ve apparently got some comprehension issues, I’ll spell it out for you and state that I’m not saying that you’ve ever said that).
protected static
And yet, all you can do is continue to assert that sexism has played no role in this campaign whatsoever. Clearly, I’m dealing with a master of debate.
cbear
You got some extras?
ThymeZone
Really? Then the data, the facts, will settle the matter, eh?
What exactly was the effect of the “sexist attacks” on her campaign? Where are the demographic breakdowns, the analyses, the charts, the graphs, the numbers? What was the ratio of voters who voted for her, versus the ones who voted against her, because she is a woman?
You do know, right? You have those figures? Surely you aren’t just making this all up and shooting from the hip, are you?
Do you need some more time to gather your evidence? Please, take all the time you want. I’m here all week.
No hurry. Really. I won’t rush you. Relax, get a coffee, do a little research, get back to us.
ThymeZone
Right, and that’s how she got, as she claims now, the most popular votes. By having this low favorability, low approval, and enduring all these attacks.
So if we follow the data, the lead she has in votes is directly linked to the unfair treatment she has received.
My good man, you have turned politics as know it on its ear. The way to win is apparently to be humiliated and despised. If that’s true, then my calculation is that she will be declaring victory any day now.
Oh wait …. she already has. Well, there you go! She won! Rejoice! All props to you! Winner!
Chuck Butcher
Oh keeerist on a krutch, to a very great extent Hillary earned those negatives on her own. what the fuck is sexist about skirting ethics in Whitewater, mismanaging the Travel Office reorganization, blowing health care with autocratic secretive management, voting AUMF, voting flag burning, running a 50%+1 vote campaign, running a Feb 5 campaign, lying about being shot at, using wifely presence as experience, etc etc etc?
I loath Hillary’s politics and ethics and nothing about the presence of tits brings that on and they don’t excuse her BS behavior either.
I’ll tell you something you can measure slightly, the “sexism” has hardened and expanded her supporters somewhat. How ignorant are you to not understand that’s why she plays the victim in it? You can find it on my blog when she started playing at running that I stated she wasn’t a lock and in fact not probable because she does not wear well with exposure. That’s not about gender, it is about her and oddly was accurate – versus your bullshit postulations. This fucking victim shit is soooooo tired and you whiners are more tired.
Hillary Clinton flat out sucks as a politician and as a political thinker – do you get it? She stinks. She can’t even manage the old shit with the entire old band to help out. Twit.
goddam I hate liars and whiners and especially ones who scapegoat. Sexism my ass, you’d spit on a man who acted that way. Hillary was given a complete and total pass on her past and you whine for her? Mewling puking babies.
Ninerdave
All due respect mi amigo: TZ, gender, race, religion, et. al. is not a valid choice with regard to president. That is the way the lazy, xenophobic, ill-informed, stupid, racist and misgonists choose a president. It is likely these folk who have given us two terms of Bush.
cbear
Danger, Will Robinson, DANGER!
Conservatively Liberal
Anyone without blinders can see that Hillary’s campaign brain trust blew it for her. She was given the worst advice, and her track record in the Senate did not help her one bit. Hillary’s problem is that she is too political, she does not vote her convictions. She tests the wind and tries to find the way that makes her look best.
IMO, when it came to the AUMF, she probably felt that if she voted against it and if Bush actually conducted the war competently, then the right would have field day hammering her about it if/when she ran for President one day (as I am sure her and Bill had been been hoping). But if the war was successful, then although parts of the party would be angry with her, a successful conclusion to the war would have negated that.
She gambled on the path of least resistance, and she lost the gamble. The flag burning amendment was another calculated move, but both sides viewed her move cynically, so no gain for her there. Hillary has not been a decision maker so much as a ‘go with whatever makes me look best’ politician, as most politicians are. So this trait is not specific to her alone. It is just the survival instinct of the career politician.
She came in to this campaign with half of the country disliking her for one reason or another. Some because she is a Clinton, others because she is a woman, or her political track record (or lack of) or a myriad of other reasons. Misogyny and racism do exist, but they are not easily quantifiable in situations like this. You can say that you see it, but it is like something an artist creates: everyone sees it differently though their own eyes, internal filters (bias) and personal experiences.
While there are various examples of sexism in the media, and in online commentary, there is nothing anyone can really do about it but go to the source and complain about it. The problem, as I see it, is that Clinton supporters seem to be demanding that Hillary be given the win because of everything that her supporters believe worked against her is unfair.
They want a do-over, and they refuse to address the real reason their candidate has lost.
Because of her incompetent campaign brain trust, her track record, Bill’s big mouth and her right wing style attacks against Obama as unelectable and not worthy of the office of President. While you Clinton supporters whine about all of the injustice, you ignore the fact that your candidate was attacking ours as if he was the enemy and not a fellow party member. If you think you are pissed at what you perceive as unfair attacks against Hillary, imagine how we felt. Or do you even want to? No, because most of you refuse to admit that Hillary was damaging Obama by giving the Republicans material for the fall to use against him.
Since your candidate can do no wrong, do you find it unreasonable that Obama supporters feel the same way?
Hillary came in to this contest with a bunch of cash, the lead in super delegates, and the polls saying that she was going to steamroll the competition without problem. She had the Clinton name, donors with deep wallets, and a husband who was a popular former President who could also advise her and give her the inside scoop on campaigning.
She had it all, and she squandered it all away. Her and her campaign thought she had it sewed up, and they spent their campaign cash like there was no tomorrow. Huge salaries, huge parking bills, nice hotels for everyone and all the trimmings. After all, after sweeping up on Super Tuesday, the cash would be rolling in hand over fist. So why worry when her win was inevitable? She came in to the primary season as a powerhouse, she was going to clear the table and sweep up the winnings.
One problem. One candidate was deadly serious about winning, and he put together a team of people who he could count on to do the best they can for him. People who believe in what they are doing, and who know that if they want to win then they have to have a plan to get out there and earn it. So while Hillary was making the press rounds and drinking up all of the attention, Obama and his team rolled up their sleeves, planned and got to work.
This race is like the story about the tortoise and the hare. The hare knew the race was as sure as won, but the tortoise ignored the hare and quietly plodded along, keeping the goal line in sight the whole time. The hare got lost along the way, and now the tortoise is almost across the finish line.
While sexism exists, you have to fight it by going after the source. Also, you have to be able to admit when something is not sexism. I have seen so many examples of false sexism claims in this campaign that I am afraid that the word has lost its meaning. Women who are decrying false sexism are only hurting themselves. People will eventually say ‘Oh, they say that about everything’ and just dismiss it out of hand. Sad, but true.
What I find especially galling is how Hillary and her supporters like to claim that the ‘boys’ are keeping her down. The virtual ‘gang rape’ claims that I have heard from her supporters are just repulsive to read. Do you hear Obama saying that white people are keeping him down? That he is suffering a virtual lynching at the hands of white voters?
No. He would kill his campaign if he uttered anything of the sort. So ask yourself, why does Hillary think she can get away with the same thing with sexism? Have her claims of sexism helped her campaign? No. For the same reason it wouldn’t if Obama claimed racism was being used against him.
It may sound unfair, but people don’t really like a whiner. Even if that whiner feels justified because they were wronged. You have to be tough in politics because most people vote for a winner, not a whiner. Hillary is whining now and some of her supporters are joining her for a sing along. And it is not impressing anyone.
She has lost, and that is the end of it. If she was to win the primary because the super delegates or party leaders decide that she deserves the win over Obama, what would we hear this fall if she gets her ass kicked by the Republicans? Who is going to come and save the day for her then?
Nobody.
That is why we need a candidate of the caliber of Barack Obama. He has stood up to the endless crap that has been thrown at him, and he is still standing and winning. He did not whine about it, he got out there and worked his ass off to win.
It is over, so get used to it. Hillary lost, and Obama won. That is what contests like this are about. There is a winner, and everyone else loses. Such is the nature of any contest. When I was growing up, I had many adults teach me about good sportsmanship and how to win and lose gracefully. I learned that you have nothing to be ashamed about if you did your best and still lost the contest. In losing, I learned to congratulate the winner and to take what lessons I could glean from the loss so that I might do better next time.
Hillary and her hard core supporters seem to feel that they are the exception to the rule. That even if they are losing,they should be allowed to win. Claims of sexism and bias are their reasons for justification, but I call it what it is.
Poor sportsmanship.
Jeez! I had no idea it was this long! I just hammered it out and looked at it now. Oh well, more hot air for Balloon Juice. ;)
Sorry, but I had to get that out.
rachel
True, that. OTOH, W needed his daddy’s help to get into the positions where he could fuck up those little companies, but Fiorina worked her ass off to get to where she could fuck up HP. This speaks to their relative levels of ability… Or something.
flavortext
Hmm. I don’t know what to make of this thread…a circular tasing squad, perhaps?
Hillary’s been the target of many sexist attacks in her political career, chiefly from the right. That being said, I doubt her ability to win any Democratic primary has been affected at all by sexist sentiment. In January she was outpolling both Obama and Edwards combined across the entire country, and when Chris Matthews opened his orifice of stupidity against her she stumped the pollsters and won New Hampshire.
There were plenty of people who were very, very reluctant to support her (including me) but I think that had Obama not been in the race, Clinton would have captured the nomination easily. That she now faces certain defeat can be blamed mostly on playing the incumbent strategy in a wide open primary, underestimating the Obama campaign, and failing to accurately gauge the mood of voters.
Now fast-forwarding to today – I think it’s safe to ignore much of the weirdness coming out of Clinton supporters, and sweep most of the divisions away after the convention and extend a hand of friendship (or a seat on the unity pony). A lot of what I can see can be divided into three camps:
1) The supporters who won’t give up until their candidate says so. I’ve been there, I know what it’s like, and I have much sympathy for them. I was planning on voting for Edwards in CA on Super Tuesday even though he was polling in the 11-15% range, and when he dropped out of the race I was at a loss – I literally made up my mind whilst staring at the ballot, pen in hand. If you vote for a candidate you like, and not simply against the greater of two evils – if you believe in the candidate you support, you’re going to ride with them all the way to the end, and end that comes only when the candidate drops out. So it goes.
2) Those who filter everything through gendered politics. I happen to live with a Clinton supporter who thought it was funny to call me a rapist because I’m male and believed I’m a sexist because I support Obama. I got her to stop, but I can’t help thinking some of the wackier stuff we’ve seen at talkleft is the result of this. However given the shit this country gave (and continues to give) women, it’s pretty understandable. I see sexist attitudes in my fellow males all the time, though only from the nonpolitical ones. I’m only hoping this group realizes that Obama ain’t a sexist, and neither are our motives. Also, John McCain – with a consistent 0% rating by NARAL – is hardly a friend of women’s rights.
3) The batshit insane – No Quarter, for example. When your comments could be featured at little green footballs, you know you’ve crossed a line. A line known as sanity. These people are a lost cause.
Come November, I’m predicting a unified Democratic party sweeping the House, the Senate, and the Presidency. Then we can look back on all this craziness and laugh.
Conservatively Liberal
rAmen!
Conservatively Liberal
¡uoos puǝ ʇ,usǝop ʎɹɐɯıɹd sıɥʇ ɟı op oʇ ƃuıoƃ ɯɐ ı ʇɐɥʍ ʍouʞ ʇ,uop ı
Rome Again
I want you all to think about something:
1. TZ is correct when he says that if sexism is on the table for the benefit of the candidate then it has to be on the table for the demise as well.
2. TZ is correct that the difference between spoof and sockpuppetry exists, and TZ asked for an example of him calling two or more people sockpuppets. That example was not produced. The example that was produced only called ONE person a sockpuppet. TZ is also correct about the spoofing activity and the list, and I know because I used to be a member of that list (and I may decide to be again one day).
3. While you all are arguing semantics over TZ’s used of the the word sexism, you are forgetting three very important factors:
a. We are all individuals and are here expressing our own individual points of view. There is no concerted effort here to organize attacks on the opposition (be it Hillary, Obama or the GOP). All these attacks we’re arguing here come from individuals, whether they be garbed in their usual posting name (something TZ does almost always, btw), or as spoof, or a sockpuppet, or as troll. There is no “THEM” to blame anything on, you cannot make an individual blogger, voter, supporter accountable for a party gaffe.
b. We all post here for different reasons, some are simply to have fun. Others are sharing knowledge and exchanging linkage to learn more. Others are here for reasons that no one here may entirely understand, to disrupt, to confuse, to create chaos, to set up argument among. This environment requires that everyone who posts here take thing sseriously but not too seriously; we all need to have a thick skin, we all want to be right, we all believe different things and at the end of the day, little of what is posted here really matters in the whole scheme of things.
c. Currently there is a desperate oppposition which is adept at using tricks and schemes to get what they want, you know them as the GOP, THEY are an organization. THEY vote in lockstep, and THEY work together to create this kind of havoc because they know THEY will lose if they don’t. They come here from time to time and try to create chaos, they do it all over the web. They are on Hillaryis44, They are on TalkLeft, They are on Kos, They are on MYDD, They are everywhere and THEY HAVE AN AGENDA. Much of what Democrats are throwing at each other was created and prepared in the GOP kitchen. This current campaign is particularly confusing because the GOP is running a failure of a candidate who many in that party are choosing not to support, we have two minorities battling for the Democratic nomination, and we have lots of little nameless, faceless beings all over the net who are changing the landscape of this campaign some as individuals, AND SOME AS GOP OPERATIVES by trolling, by spoofing, by sockpuppetry, and by sheer lying that they are supporting one candidate when in fact they are supporting another. They are creating havoc for fun, for the sole purpose that they have this twisted sense of need to create confusion, and SOME ARE DOING IT TO WIN AN ELECTION. This is THE WEB, YOU CANNOT TAKE IT SO FUCKING SERIOUSLY!
In conclusion, I’d like to say that if you want to place blame for the situation we have here, everyone is to blame, for many different individual things, but only the MEDIA AND THE GOP can be held accountable for actually creating and feeding this bullshit scenario. Blame the Rush Limbaugh’s and the Tweety’s and the Rupert Murdoch’s and such. Blame those who use these avenues to create more descent (Scaife), blame the candidates when they walk down such roads themselves (and yes, Hillary inviting Scaife in to speak is something that I do blame her for) – but you cannot blame the individual, the individual poster, supporter, blogger is an entity that cannot be held responsible for the direction of an entire campaign or election.
::stepping off my soapbox now::
Bot LaBeer
Ya know who would have been an awesome VP for Obama?
Paul Wellstone
Conservatively Liberal
On point C of your post RA, that is the saddest part of the whole problem. Rather than bow out gracefully once the writing on the wall was visible, Hillary chose to hang in to the bitter end. Bitter being the operative word here.
Some of her ‘more vocal’ supporters are bitter about the way things are going, and they vulnerable to right wing rats who sneak in and offer a rousing war cheer or shoulder to cry on. These Hillary supporters are desperate for anything that validates their opinions, and the rats are tenderly feeding them what they want by the spoonful. People who are otherwise careful are joining up with complete strangers to rebel against their party, and some of these complete strangers are only there to lead them off a cliff.
In throwing caution to the wind, these supporters are inviting the enemy in to their midst. They are pulling these Trojan Horses into their party and turning their backs to them.
That is why every single time I hear any so-called Democrat proclaim that they are voting for McCain, I am calling them what they really are: Republicans.
Those that refuse to see the enemy in their camp and run off to vote for Mr. Magoo because they were convinced to are lost to us. They might come to their senses before they vote, but in the meantime we must let them know that their kicking and screaming is not going to change anything. Their candidate lost, and they have to learn to deal with it, hopefully like adults. Nobody is going to hold their hand and make it all better for them.
Nobody is going to make it all better for them except for the Republican rats that they call their ‘fellow Clinton supporter’. Hillary has set this mess up by not facing reality, and in doing so she has encouraged her supporters to ignore reality. She is not doing them or the party any favors, but you will never convince her supporters of that.
A lot of what I hear from the hard core Clinton supporters is projection. They talk about the ‘cult of Obama’, but the real cult is these supporters who refuse to face reality and instead listen to a candidate who refuses to face reality.
The blind leading the blind, so to say.
tattoosydney
What Conservatively LIberal and flavortext said…!!
flavortext
What CL said.
Dan
There may be sexism, but if HRC were not a woman, she would not have been first lady for 8 years. So her benefit from her gender FAR FAR FAR outweighs the negative.
cleek
i can has new thread?
4tehlulz
cleek you asshole. This thread was on 404 and you killed it.
Punchy
Surprise!
From the article:
If this guy sneaks in somehow….yikes.
cleek
a 413 (Request Entity Too Large) would be better
Dennis - SGMM
a 621(Contents Are Redundant) would be apropos
dr. bloor
I don’t know much about computers. What’s the code for “Mercy Killing?”
protected static
Extra wetsuits, or extra dildos?
Zifnab
Yeah, I’m more concerned with his voting record than how he signs his autographs. Seriously, graphology? Why not just go all out and ask an astrology or read some tea leaves?
“Ms. Fortunia Seesalya, do we have another 100 years of Iraq in our future?”
Billy K
What do we want?
THREAD!
When do we want it?
NOW!
What do we want?
THREAD!
When do we want it?
NOW!
What do we want?
THREAD!
When do we want it?
NOW!
What do we want?
THREAD!
When do we want it?
NOW!
Jen
Billy K is way behind in his embroidery. C’mon, John.
The Other Steve
My several complaints with regards to Hillary
#1. She didn’t apologize for the Iraq war vote.
#2. She’s the first to the podium to bash Grand Theft Auto.
#3. She constantly panders with stupid gimmicks like gas tax holidays.
#4. She says states like Alaska don’t matter, because Democrats will never vote for us there anyhow.
Can you please explain to me which of these complaints, all on policy or process grounds, are sexist?
rachel
format C:
(No, don’t do that.)
Punchy
Maybe if I copy the entire thread into a comment, John will get the hint.
Zifnab
2, 4, 6, 8
A new thread we’d appreciate!
Zifnab
You’re just talking down to her because you can’t accept her for the independent woman she is.
Grand Theft Auto is a sexist and misogynist game. Only people who hate women would play it or oppose people who opposed people playing it.
Yeah, you complain about the pandering now, but you’ll just be back tomorrow with those big signs that say “IRON MY SHIRT”. Suddenly tax cuts are pandering, but if she irons your shirt, that’s just good politics? Yeah, I don’t buy it.
When are you going to stop beating your wife?
Conservatively Liberal
Here is a nice way to put it IMO:
Since Hillary believes that there has not been any racism during this campaign but insists that there has been sexism, then I believe that there has been neither. When she can admit that there may have been racism in this campaign, then I will admit there may have been sexism in this campaign. Until that happens, the sexism whiners can keep howling at the moon for all I care.
This can work both ways. If Hillary wants to deny racism has happened, then everyone else is free to deny sexism has happened.
Throwin Stones
Exactly Right
Zifnab
And then the Republicans win.
Because when everyone gathers together and declares “sexism/racism” doesn’t exist, we can safely print Curious George in ’08 t-shirts and rally our voters to the tune of “beat the bitch”.
Hurray, bigotry.
ThymeZone
Can’t agree. It’s my vote, I use it as I see fit.
Nobody controls my decision making process. If I want a woman president, I vote for the woman if I want to. Or, against her if I want to.
The Constitution proscribes a religious test. As a citizen, I feel duty bound to observe that as best I can, but it’s ambiguous and amorphous, and there is no way to sharpen the rule or enforce it.
In any case, the use of the word “sexism” is just a theatrical and manipulative device in this context. Deciding I want, or don’t want, a woman president has nothing to do with sexism. To assert that would require attaching an “ist” to every possible basis for consideration and trying paint them all as patholgical.
I’m a ….. warrist. I’m a foreignpolicyist. I’m a ethicist. Blah blah blah.
Somewhere around half to two thirds of voting is visceral. I vote for the people I like. Which brings us to Clinton. I don’t like her. And Obama. I like him.
I didn’t like Clinton last year when I stated that she was going to be the nominee and we should all get behind her. I think it would be hard to argue that I was being sexist then, or now. But I still don’t like her. Because she is a dishonest, manipulative asshole, not because she is a woman.
The Other Steve
I played GTA II on the Xbox for a bit. I’m not a huge fan of the game… but it’s mostly about puzzles to solve.
The part I liked doing was stealing a police car and seeing how many cops I could get chasing me, and it was real fun to try to escape them.
Obviously it means I hate cops.
It should be noted, that I also enjoy driving backwards in racing games seeing how many cars I can knock off the track.
And my favorite pasttime in BF2 is loading a jeep up with C4 and running into tanks and crowds of people.
Clearly this makes me an anarchist, suicide bombing terrorist.
Or it could just be I’m having fun playing a game.
libarbarian
Talk about an omen of what is to come if this guy, by some freak oddity, became President. I’m just wondering which “other countries” he wants the approval of. I mean, we are talking about the Presidency of the United States here. I wasn’t aware that our food, cars or warmth was subject to another country’s ‘approval’. But that’s just me.
….
You can start by telling your useless anti-Obama elderly parent or neighbor that it’s just too damned bad if she is cold all the time and needs more heat in her apartment. Tell her old people are useless to Barack Obama anyhow, so turn down that thermostat and Live With It! Those goddamned Old People are a such a burden on society anyhow.
…
So bascially, if Barry decides to appoint himself President, he will just have to make all those old people crank down that thermostat to 62, let them freeze, the old farts — so “other countries” will say “Ok”. All 27 million of them! Think of the money the country will save if Obama just gets rid of all those pesky old people he doesn’t have time for. The problem is, he’s going to have to round them all up and make them feel too cold to vote in November or else it’s back to being a Chicago Thug for him. Maybe he can spring Tony Rezko and get him to cut off the heat completely. That’s the Obama-Chicago way.
….
And another thing, America: When Barky Obama is President, you aren’t going to be allowed to eat as much as you want anymore either. So get with the program and stop eating now! That way Barack Obama won’t be sending the Food Police to your house later. They are going to take your food and give it to somebody else who needs it more. You want a big meal? Get an invitation to the White House. Otherwise, no arugula for you!
You also might as well get rid of that damned SUV right now! Of course he can keep his. After all, he is the President! Oh wait, Ok, so he’s not president yet. But he will be just as soon as he figures out a way to cheat again and disenfranchise some more of the 57 states that aren’t going to vote for him. That should fix it. In the meantime, get yourself a subcompact and shove the five kids and the dog in it. If you don’t all fit, leave some kids home or something. And while you’re at it, start biking to work. So what if you commute 30 miles every day.
–
Michelle MalkinNo Quarterlibarbarian
Zifnab
Your name is now on a terrorist watch list.
They’ve Gitmo’d people for less.
Yeah, that’s what we said about a bunch of Islamofascists playing flight simulators in a cave in Afghanistan. Then, three years later, BLAM! 9/11.
I blame the Clintons for not banning those violent video games while they had the chance. Also, Tom Clancy for releasing the book Debt of Honor. Also, Michael Moore, for being fat.
MNPundit
I know this is rather behind, but…. I’ve always thought of the former CEO of HP as “that bitch Fiorina.” That’s how much I hate what she did to HP.
bassman
I am tired of hearing the PNAC radical reich-wing-nuts like Bill(the war monger) Kristol propagandize us with his vitriolic hatred and his pro-Israel retoric. These dual citizen Neo-cons, they should be called Neo-convicts, are all war profiteers and should be hung for treason but because of the loopholes they create in the law will probably get diplomatic immunity for their crimes. Go move to Israel and take Lie-berman with you!!!
brantl
Get a REAL life, TZ, this rude online one is apparently not giving you sufficient satisfaction.