I will be away for a few hours, so here is your primary open thread.
I am gonna go ahead and call Kentucky for Clinton.
Reader Interactions
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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
I would gladly pay you tuesday for a hamburger today.
The way to stop violence is to stop manufacturing the hatred that fuels it.
The gop is a fucking disgrace.
We know you aren’t a Democrat but since you seem confused let me help you.
Damn right I heard that as a threat.
So many bastards, so little time.
To the privileged, equality seems like oppression.
It is not hopeless, and we are not helpless.
Compromise? There is no middle ground between a firefighter and an arsonist.
If you still can’t see these things even now, maybe politics isn’t your forte and you should stop writing about it.
Usually wrong but never in doubt
“The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.”
Wake up. Grow up. Get in the fight.
Only Democrats have agency, apparently.
With all due respect and assumptions of good faith, please fuck off into the sun.
Let me file that under fuck it.
Prediction: the gop will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.
Impressively dumb. Congratulations.
The only way through is to slog through the muck one step at at time.
Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.
Finding joy where we can, and muddling through where we can’t.
If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!
Come on, media. you have one job. start doing it.
Fear or fury? The choice is ours.
RampantSexism
Kentucky is a critical swing state. Once again, we are seeing who is electable and who is not.
BFR
Why is everyone pretending that Oregon doesn’t exist?
RampantSexism
Oregon is not a critical swing state.
Andrew
BFR: Oregon was recently kicked out of the country and replaced with Puerto Rico. Try and keep up, man.
The Other Steve
Oregon will clearly vote for the Republican in November, so therefore it doesn’t count.
kwAwk
That applies to Obama too right? Isn’t he campaigning in Iowa today?
The real reason may be the Big O has peaked in Oregon and may not get the double digit wing people were talking about last week.
RampantSexism
Oregon has always been a Red State. Most people would agree with this.
D-Chance.
I’ll be brave and predict that John King will bore us to death with his magic fingers on the big-ass screen, and that all the pundits will declare that tonight “didn’t change anything”.
Just Some Fuckhead
Damn you Kos!!!!
El Doh
Obama’s not campaigning in Oregon today because it’s a vote by mail state.
Zifnab
I think that’s a safe bet.
60 electoral votes in Kentucky. 65 in Oregon. Assuming Barack picks up 20 in Bourbon Country and 35 in California’s Canada, he’s cut his distance to the official nomination in half. :)
Adam
Since this is an open thread, I’m gonna repost my Stroll Down Primary Memory Lane from a few threads down:
Anyone remember when Obama was advocating “poisonous” rhetoric when he made that comment that was taken out-of-context as evidence that he supported Reagan OMG and Reagan was so divisive and racist and then a month after they had to drop that argument (because let’s face it, it was really bad), the Clinton campaign adopted almost literally every single tactic they were accusing Obama of supporting in order to win “white, working-class voters” who weren’t at all “bitter” and liked their guns just like Hillary and blah blah? It’s almost like they were targeting “Reagan Democrats.”
Yeah, boy that was fun times.
flyerhawk
Or maybe it’s because Obama and his supporters already know this nomination is locked while the Hillary supporters are trumpeting Kentucky as the key to the general election, just like every other state Hillary wins?
Punchy
If Oregon was leaning towards Hillary, they’d call it Whore-gon. As such, she’s winning Kuntucky.
And I HATE the implicit sexism in this primary.
Adam
Or hey, how about when they filed that lawsuit the weekend before the Nevada caucuses to shut down the at-large precincts on the Strip that were set up in advance for food-service voters who couldn’t get away from their jobs to vote, before that (you know, not being able to get away from your job to caucus) became a reason why caucuses were actually illegitimate and before Florida and Michigan taught us that every vote must be counted!?
It’s almost like they were trying to disenfranchise a bunch of (mostly Hispanic) voters by scrapping the caucus mechanics that were set up to address the problem of those voters getting away from work, the weekend before the caucus when those precincts actually turned out OK for them and they dropped it.
Wow I miss those days! Everyone here was calling Obama the Magical Unity Pony and taking myiq2xu seriously, and to be fair, if Clinton had reversed course and stopped acting like a craven incompetent, I was pretty willing to cut her some slack, too.
And of course she didn’t, but criticizing her changed from being too sensitive about Obama because Hillary’s a strong woman… to being too mean and sexist to Clinton because the misogynists stole the election from her. That part has been weird.
I’m also kind of unclear now on whether the primary is supposed to be decided by superdelegates, pledged delegates, the popular vote, the Rules Committee, caucuses, primaries, Reagan Democrats, non-Reagan Democrats, hard-working white people, Hispanics, big states we’re going to win like NY and California, or small states we’re not going to win like Kentucky and West Virginia. I miss Hillary being the Inevitable Candidate of Competence and Obama being the Inexperienced Newcomer Who Couldn’t Win.
Oh, and he wanted to be President in kindergarten guys. I mean come on
demimondian
Wow! Talk about subtle mysogyny.
Billy K
This site deserves better trolls.
Adam
I haven’t heard anyone saying that but I just wanted to register my surprise that there are assholes in the world and that they talk about politics.
I am also pleased that we’ve solved the sample bias problem and can now identify all a candidate’s supporters as sexist or racist or whatever based on these awesome anecdotes. The Internet Is Useful!
Oh and everyone who votes Democrat is a socialist latte-sipping Al-Qaeda-supporting fifth columnist, so fuck all you guys anyway
Billy K
Hey guys…. I just noticed something. Barack Obama is black! Is anybody else aware of this? Because I don’t think they’d be voting for him if they were!!!
Adam
The real trolls are in a mourning period because the mudslinger candidacy is finally doomed. These are just the temps we hired to fill space until the general election.
Just Some Fuckhead
I figured it out when Squawk indicated Barack would be eating double digit wings. Black folks luv ’em some chicken wings.
flyerhawk
I HATE that anytime someone says something that somehow, in someway, references something feminine in a negative way that means they are being sexist.
I HATE the fact that people are trying to equate the word bitch with the N-word. I HATE the fact that these same people use the word bitch all the time in the exact same negative connotation that they deride others for using it in.
I HATE the fact that people have conflated hatred of Hillary with misogyny. They are not synonymous even if some people hate Hillary because they are misogynists.
Sexism is denying equal rights to women. It is NOT using words that specifically associated with women.
RampantSexism
I don’t know what a troll is, but I am sure that it has something to do with disrespectful treatment of women and female impersonators.
Some of you think it’s funny and cool to make snide remarks about women. Well, it’s not. The echo in here is just a little off-putting.
RampantSexism
Amen, sister.
Adam
How could Sexism do such a thing to women? WTF
EdTheRed
Win.
I’m not condoning (or condemning) any specific remarks in these comment threads (mostly because I’m way too lazy to go looking for examples), but I would like to point out that all snide remarks made about a person are either going to be about a woman or a man. While I can do without nasty personal insults, and over-the-top stereotyping, I don’t want to live in a world where no snide marks are allowed.
Wilfred
Female impersonators? What a drag.
kwAwk
Yeah. When I go to conservative blogs they call me a troll too, which is why I tend to call you guys our versions of Bushies.
When I go to conservative blogs they call me a communist, but when I come here I get called a ‘Republican shill’ or some other silly term.
What it is really about is that some people can’t stand having people around who question their own world view. And you guys seem quite pleased with yourselves for basically nominating the fourth or fifth best candidate standing on the debate stage in Iowa, so congrats to that I guess.
But please do go on with the arrogant diatribes about the vapid unity candidate would couldn’t get abover 51% of the popular vote in his own party, and who is basically slinking into the nomination on a whimper in spite of the tremendous monitary advantage.
‘yes we can’
‘yes we can’
RampantSexism
Sure, when the snide remarks don’t hurt you. You’d feel differently if the pump were on the other foot.
chopper
shorter kwawk: boo hoo! oh, boo hoo!
take the bitchfest somewhere else.
Just Some Fuckhead
Sure sounds like it’s the rest of the world thats all fucked up.
cleek
yeah… quack ceases to amuse, he’s a’goin to the pie factory.
Bey
Thicker skins might be in order here. Just sayin’
SGEW
Well, then. You are that rare breed: a bipartisan troll, with the amazing ability to drive everyone crazy with your mischaracterizations of facts (i.e., lies). Cheers.
kwAwk
chopper Says:
I’m just trying to give you guys the credit you deserve for picking the great candidate that is unifying party of Jefferson. Wait…wait…. I think I have a shiver running down my leg!
Ohh..sorry no…false alarm. My apologies.
Dennis - SGMM
And that means that no one can make funny and snide remarks about men either – right? Right?
Thought not.
Sexist.
sstarr
kwAwk:
First, sounds like you don’t like Obama. Or you like Clinton, Edwards, Richardson and Gravel MORE than you like Obama. Well hooray for your opinion! Why do you think he’s a bad candidate?
And it also looks like you can count delegates. Yes, Obama is going to win with barely over 50% of the pledged delegates. Why is that such a bad thing?
McCain never won a majority of the voters in the early stages of the Republican primaries. The winner take all rules of the Republican party creates the illusion of massive victories. If the Republican party used the same rules that the Democratic party uses I’m pretty sure Huckabee and Mitt could have stayed in for the long haul.
Since you are a centrist (and everyone else is a lunatic extremists with the diatribes and all) I have to ask was McCain clearly the best of the Republican candidates?
RampantSexism
43 male presidents sort of proves that there is a bit of an imbalance at work here.
Dennis - SGMM
That didn’t answer my question – did it? I wasn’t asking about an imbalance, we’ve never had a black president, a Japanese or Chinese president either. So, one more time, are funny and snide remarks about men off the table too or are you demanding special treatment for women?
Brachiator
What? Is your diaper leaking?
Andrew
Why is Noron wearing a cocktail dress on the teevee?
w vincentz
I haven’t seen the early returns. How is Hillary doing in the “Beaver” state?
John S.
Yeah!
Like why can’t everybody just accept how AWESOME Hillary is? I mean, that’s not a point of view — it’s a fact!
I’m telling you! This is the last time we cede the entire nomination process to the commenters of Balloon Juice.
wasabi gasp
I like a campaign with tits.
I don’t like a campaign that shoves it’s tits right into my face, then hits me on the head with a purse for looking at them.
EdTheRed
I’ve had plenty of snide remarks thrown my way, but they don’t generally actually *hurt* me. That said, I *am* a bit tired of all the derogatory language being thrown at city-dwelling, multiple-degree holding, latte-drinking, Volvo-driving (when I’m not walking or biking or taking mass transit) “elitists” these days. But you know what? I’m an adult. I can handle going on the internet and reading things that are offensive.
Conservatively Liberal
“Big O! Showtime!”
SamFromUtah
“Big O! Showtime!”
ROFL!
I was thinking of saying it.
libarbarian
From Sullivan:
He might be right. I can’t imagine that Latinos responded very well to Clinton’s conspicuous decision to campaign as the “White candidate for working class white people”. I think many know that that demographic doesn’t particularly like Latinos either.
Shey
Odd news item of the day- Brussels Court Convicts Cartoonist
I’m not sure if this is a farce or not. A one euro fine?
cleek
it’s a two-way shut-out, right now.
El Doh
I’ve never seen a campaign that lacked them, and I’ve worked in a few.
cleek
and with 18% in, it’s 51%/46% for Clinton, in the Personal Lubricant State.
SamFromUtah
I can’t imagine that Latinos responded very well to Clinton’s conspicuous decision to campaign as the “White candidate for working class white people”.
No doubt. I keep thinking that even though national news coverage has been around for a long time, and especially now with the intertubes being around, some of these old-school campaigns really haven’t grasped that dumb shit you say to pander in one state is going to be heard immediately in all the others. I think that was part of the Republicans’ nose-bloodying in 2006, and I think part of the Obama campaign’s strength is that they do seem to be aware of it.
I also keep thinking that a lot of these campaigners must think that non-white people are really stupid, and they might not even be aware they think that.
Just Some Fuckhead
I wonder if HRC sampled the Kentucky Jelly when she was campaigning there.
Cain
We’re putting the horse shoes on the pony.. cuz he’s running from here on in!
cain
Conservatively Liberal
Well, we also like to make snide remarks about men. So were really are equal opportunity offenders here.
Wrap towels around the base of your chair for times like this.
Of course they didn’t answer your question! Why do that when you can throw something else that is irrelevant against the wall to see if it will stick?
You elitist latte sipping sexist misogynist.
That goes double for you.
What I want to know is if Roger Smith is still piloting the black megadeuce. If he is, I don’t know what white people are complaining about.
Oh yeah, Big O only does what is right and good, never evil. You have to be worthy to pilot the megadeuce! That could prove to be a problem.
That and he likes to ruin city streets when he is called into action. That can get expensive.
We are all tomatoes. Where is my bar code?
Dreggas
Want some cheese with that wine?
Dreggas
As I have said elsewhere, while I do believe some sensitivity is in order, we are each responsible for our own feelings and in what way we let things effect us. I am not responsible for how someone else feels, they are responsible for how they feel and people need to stop letting others have that kind of power over them.
Dreggas
Kentucky a swing state? Yeah right. Nice try, just like WV is a swing state.
SamFromUtah
Oh yeah, Big O only does what is right and good, never evil. You have to be worthy to pilot the megadeuce!
You know, if somebody had a reliable mechanism for detecting “Ye Not Guilty”, I’d consider factoring that into our choosing of leaders. Or at least equip the nuclear football with it.
Cassidy
Sounds like you’re whining like a little girl.
4tehlulz
I lol’d. I keep thinking of that every time some dumbass says that, but I keep suppressing my power levels.
All I know is this, Norman for SecDef.
SamFromUtah
All I know is this, Norman for SecDef.
And R. Dorothy Wainwright for Secretary of Transportation. She sets a fine example pedaling her bike along at 80 MPH.
chopper
can i buy pot from you?
Apsaras
Hahaha, oh Terry Mcauliffe. I’m sure race has nothing to do with Barack Obama’s problems in appalachia.
KRK
Those responding to RampantSexism’s comments seem to be assuming that s/he is something other than a spoof. I think that is an error.
Dreggas
Of course not but Hillary’s problem in every other state is the result of sexism on a national level/scale.
Steve V
Per Marc Ambinder: 80% of Clinton voters in Kentucky say they’d be dissatisfied if Obama is the nominee; 60% of Clinton voters in Oregon say the same. More Clinton voters in Kentucky say they’d support McCain than would support Obama in the general. In Oregon, 68% of Clinton voters say they’d vote for Obama versus 22% who say they’d vote for McCain. Obama voters aren’t happy about HRC either, but the numbers aren’t as stark.
Desmond
Apparently McAuliffe just lied about an imaginary GE poll that showed Hillary ahead of McCain in Kentucky. No such poll exists.
Just Some Fuckhead
I think “sex pimp” comes first in the commentalogical classification system
Calouste
I think a one Euro fine is the court’s way of saying that the law could do with some reviewing or clarification, but that they have to convict based on current interpretation of the law. Symbolic fines are not uncommon in Europe in free speech related cases anyway.
Interesting combination of ads I got on that page btw, “British Nationalist Forum” side-by-side with “singlemuslim.com”.
Just Some Fuckhead
w vincentz
“You elitist latte sipping sexist misogynist.”
Wrong. Never sipped a latte (whatever that is?). Bourbon is good enough for me to sip, thank you very much.
“Sexist misogynist”…I dunno, I’ll have to ask the gal that irons my shirts. I think she does a good job, though I haven’t had sex with her.
So, since KY will go refug in the general, is this going to be the state that Hillary will claim she has electability?
Oh, if Barack gets 30 dels out of Oregon (Beaver state), it’s a done deal (as if it wasn’t so already).
Tlaloc
“Why is everyone pretending that Oregon doesn’t exist?”
Shush. We prefer not to call attention to ourselves. We already have too many Californians.
KRK
Once again, we’re on track for roughly a quarter of votes in the Republican primary (in KY) to be protest votes. It’s a 3-way tie for second place among Ron Paul, Huckabee, and uncommitted. Go, Republican protest voters!!
Soylent Green
Say what? We picked the Democrat in the GE in 1988, 1992, 1996, 2000, and 2004. And this year is a lock.
Okay I get it, not for Hillary = red.
t jasper parnell
Or Jewish.
Tlaloc
“Unofficially, I’m going to say that about 100% of Obama supporters should be disatisfied with a Clinton candidacy because SHE CAME IN SECOND PLACE TO OBAMA IN THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY! Duh.”
Well if the Superdelegates broke her way she would be first in the democratic primary, seeing as the SD are _part_ of the primary process.
Tlaloc
“Say what? We picked the Democrat in the GE in 1988, 1992, 1996, 2000, and 2004. And this year is a lock.”
I’m pretty sure it was a joke, but beyond that the vote in 2000 and 2004 was pretty close. I wouldn’t call this year a lock at all. Smith is pretty popular, McCain is fairly popular, and the shithole that is eastern oregon continues to grow in population.
My wife grew up in an eastern oregon town where the stores wouldn’t serve “colored” folk. She’s 30. Not exactly old. So you can imagine how much love there’s going to be for Obama out in our own version of Alabama.
cleek
of course they would be: they’re members of a personality cult. you can’t just go knock their deity off the alter and expect them to not get all grumbly and stabby. you’ve gotta ease them into it, get the old deity to agree to be step down and to convince the faithful that everything will be all right. it might take psychotropic drugs, or hypnosis, or whippings, or simlpy a few months bed rest. but it can be done.
Tlaloc
I’m not sure it’s wise for _Obama_ supporters to throw the term “personality cult” around. That just might cause some serious blowback…
Just Some Fuckhead
I think everyone has to believe for the magic to happen.
Tlaloc
“I think everyone has to believe for the magic to happen.”
Don’t get me wrong, I consider it a vanishingly unlikely possibility at this point. I’m just pointing out that *if* the SD did go for her then Hillary would win the primary. Hence your statement was mistaken.
Cain
Too bad they got an infestation of california folks with their bucket loads of money making things tough as land prices jumped…
Smith is vulnerable according to polling, he’s already trailing under 50% against the X democratic challenger.
“The poll also shows that over half of Oregonians would not vote to reelect Gordon Smith. For the third straight month Smith remains below the 50% level of support.”
Source is here
Smith only has about a 3% lead on Merkeley, and Merkeley’s fundraising has been all small donors like Obama. People are putting money into these campaigns… Both Novick and Merkeley should give Gordon a run for his money. It’ll be an interesting night tonight :)
cain
cain
“
Soylent Green
The population boom in Bend and Redmond is mostly latté sippers, not old west ranching and logging culture. So statewide we are trending blue.
Agreed our margins in the general are small and the state can swing in any given year. Except this one.
I’ve got to give props to Chuck Butcher for fighting the good fight out there in the heart of Bush country. That takes cajones.
The Moar You Know
Stay the course, America.
RampantSexism
Exactly, most people find it obvious that sexism has been a constant throughout this campaign.
El Doh
Most recent OR polling suggests it’s not that close.
Take with the usual grain of salt.
Just Some Fuckhead
I’m glad you aren’t letting your faint hopes get in the way of your trolling. My statement wasn’t mistaken: she is in second place, in both pledged delegates and superdelegates. She will stay in second place. You can sit around masturbating to fantasy scenarios where HRC is somehow awarded the nomination but it isn’t going to happen.
The Moar You Know
He’s helping.
Tlaloc
“I’m glad you aren’t letting your faint hopes get in the way of your trolling.”
Please.
“My statement wasn’t mistaken: she is in second place, in both pledged delegates and superdelegates.”
Your statement was mistaken. You said: “Unofficially, I’m going to say that about 100% of Obama supporters should be disatisfied with a Clinton candidacy because SHE CAME IN SECOND PLACE TO OBAMA IN THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY! Duh.”
That’s just wrong. If she’s the candidate then obviously she didn’t come in second. If she came in second then obviously she isn’t the candidate. What you were trying to do was imply that the Superdelegates aren;t part of the process when they definitively are. If Hillary’s PD + SD is > then Obama’s PD + SD then Hillary was the winner of the primary both technically and actually.
As before- that’s not likely to happen, but your statement _was_ wrong.
Just Some Fuckhead
It’s over for everyone but the glassy-eyed personality cult members. Lisa Caputo, senior HRC advisor, just said that Kentucky keeps them in the popular vote lead. Kudos to Chris for his follow-up slam but a more desirable exchange would have included the following:
1. There is no mechanism in the Democratic primary for consideratin of popular vote.
2. The bogus popular vote touted by Clintards doesn’t include at least four caucus states, perhaps more, however
3. It includes the unsanctioned DISQUALIFIED contests in Michigan and Florida where party leaders broke the rules everyone agreed upon beforehand.
When you’ve got Obamaphiles creating false rationalizations and artificial scorecards, you can make a snarky “personality cult” slam. Until then, just STFU. All you are doing is delaying a reconciliation with your contrariness in the face of certain defeat.
Dennis - SGMM
Considering that Bill Clinton’s major accomplishments consisted of signing Republican bills into law I can understand his familiarity with them. His need for vindication and his jonesing to get back on to the national stage have turned him into a buffoon.
Conservatively Liberal
Damn right! If there is any kind of problem, Norman can fix it like new in record time. All by himself.
What I want to know is if Norman is going to run rails throughout the country so Big O can pop up anywhere danger calls. If so, I think he can get it done within two episodes. By himself.
I think I figured out white objection to Big O; Roger is The Negotiator and he is Japanese. Bad combination to have piloting Big O as events prior to WWII show.
This white guy is voting for Big O and The Negotiator. He may make a mess of things when fixing a problem, but everything will always turn out ok. You can’t beat that!
Yes, but how much energy does she burn, and is she nuclear powered? But still, good choice for someone to promote high speed biking.
Or a hippy, an alien, a tuna fish sandwich or a rock, all which are more intelligent than the current occupant of the White House.
I wouldn’t. It’s probably soaked in PCP for a month.
Gee, aren’t there 48 other states? Forty eight other states whose party followed the rules? Forty eight other states who would have their voice erased if the unfair results in FL & MI are allowed to be counted as if they were valid elections in those states?
He doesn’t give a shit about anything other than everything Clinton. It is all about them, and he is “bitter” because they are getting beat, and they are getting beat fair and square. It pisses him off to no end that they blew it, and he knows it. They were beat in the game that they thought was fixed in their favor. I hear reports that Bill seriously despises Obama (on MSNBC today), and although I have no idea if it is true it sure sounds like it is.
Just Some Fuckhead
And if that happens, 100% of Obama supporters will rightfully be disatisfied because she CAME IN SECOND PLACE TO OBAMA but was awarded the nomination anyway. As you indicated it’s not likely to happen, do you have a role here other than Hillary Truth Cop? Because your mad skillz could be put to good use in knocking down all the false rationalizations and bogus math currently being employed by the Clintards. Go ahead, jump right on that anytime.
Desmond
Not only that, but it gives Obama 0 votes in Michigan.
Tlaloc
“It’s over for everyone but the glassy-eyed personality cult members.”
Again- that’s a term you really shouldn’t use. It prompts a conversation that goes very badly for you.
“1. There is no mechanism in the Democratic primary for consideratin of popular vote.
2. The bogus popular vote touted by Clintards doesn’t include at least four caucus states, perhaps more, however
3. It includes the unsanctioned DISQUALIFIED contests in Michigan and Florida where party leaders broke the rules everyone agreed upon beforehand.”
1) True, although obviously it’s an argument that can be put to the Superdelegates as a way to try and sway them.
2) Of course the popular vote total doesn’t include caucuses- *there is no popular vote in a caucus.* That’s precisely the difference between a caucus (representative democracy) and a primary (direct democracy).
3) True, but last time I checked the people in Michigan and Florida were… people. People that did vote. Hence “popular vote.” Now granted you can certainly argue for throwing them out, but others can argue for including them, and both arguments have merit.
“When you’ve got Obamaphiles creating false rationalizations and artificial scorecards, you can make a snarky “personality cult” slam. Until then, just STFU. All you are doing is delaying a reconciliation with your contrariness in the face of certain defeat.”
*shrug*
There’s been an abundance of Obama _worship_ such that I have no problem advising you that “personality cult” is a bad one for you to use.
As for reconcilliation- I’ve made it clear I’m quite certain Obama will win the nomination, so what is there to reconcile?
KRK
Except that they wouldn’t be erased because she still doesn’t win.
I’m not disagreeing with your main point, I just don’t want to concede the false claim that MI and FL would put Clinton ahead. They don’t.
Tlaloc
“And if that happens, 100% of Obama supporters will rightfully be disatisfied because she CAME IN SECOND PLACE TO OBAMA but was awarded the nomination anyway.”
You do realize that typing a false statement in all capitals doesn’t make it ture, right?
“As you indicated it’s not likely to happen, do you have a role here other than Hillary Truth Cop?”
When people spout bullshit I tend to call them on it. You might consider what it means that that pisses you off apparently. It says something about your relationship to the primary, something less than complementary, frankly.
The Grand Panjandrum
Most people. Count me unconvinced. I am quite sure people have made a decision that they dont’ want a woman President, and others have decided they don’t want a President with dark skin. So what? Do you believe these traits will prevent either from winning in November?
Clinton had most of the advantages before going into Iowa. Money. Insider support (SDs!). Name recogniton. Clinton political machine. Fer chrissakes she had a former President campaigning for her. Yet, she will not be the nominee. She let Obama fight her to a standstill on Super Tuesday, then let him real off 10-11 straight victories. The Democrats nominate based on who gets to 2025 delegates first. That doesn’t look like it will happen for Clinton. She will lose.
Clinton was supposed to be the tough one. She sounds more and more like a poor sport and Bill sounds a WATB. If New York wants to keep her as their Senator that’s fine with me, I don’t live there so I can ignore her.
No more Clinton. No more Bush. Enough is enough.
t jasper parnell
More Obama supporters than Clinton supporters will vote for their second choice. How is this not evidence of Clinton’s supporters prizing personality over policies?
Dreggas
Yeah I call spoof…I have a good idea who too…
Just Some Fuckhead
Bring it on dumbass. Your threats aren’t nearly as interesting as you actually starting a conversation that goes very badly for me. I think it goes badly for you. Put up or shut up.
Why should a completely manufactured number have more sway than pledged delegate count – the currency by which the nomination is purchased?
So how many states don’t count towards the nomination? Put a number on it for us. And are Democrats chosen and nominated before the modern “direct” process retroactively invalid?
They were people unlike the.. things.. that came out and voted in caucus states?
No, there’s been an abundance of what you perceive as “Obama worship” because of the filters through which you are viewing the nomination.
Dennis - SGMM
Go to Rampant’s website. Yeah, I got suckered in.
cleek
gimme a fucking break.
anyone who leads a following of people who are willing to vote against what their candidate stands for if their candidate doesn’t win the nomination are nothing but a personality cult.
let me repeat that: personality cult.
they are willing to vote against the very principles their candidate represents if their candidate isn’t on the ticket. ostensible Democrats will vote for John Fucking McCain if Clinton doesn’t win?
fuck that.
personality cult.
Tlaloc
“More Obama supporters than Clinton supporters will vote for their second choice. How is this not evidence of Clinton’s supporters prizing personality over policies?”
Obama is further left than Clinton, right? Let’s assume that each candidates supporters tend to be ideologically similar to the candidate (at least within some reasonable distribution). So a clinton supporter looks left and sees Obama, right and sees McCain. They can potentially move either way. An Obama supporter looks right and sees clinton, and further right to McCain. Obviously they are much less likely to find McCain appealing.
There are plenty of other ways to analyze the matter but I think the one example gets the pojnt across.
The real question is how the candidate interacts with the supporters and vice versa. When you see those crqazy ass Ron Paul paintings done by his supporters that show him as a messianic figure you know there’s a personality cult thing going on. When RP supporters insist that he is the utterly perfect human being who can fix anything and everything by pure force of will, you know there is a personality cult going on.
Unfortunately you see the exact same shit with Obama. The man himself seems fine, but his charisma has unfortunately attracted an unbelievable number of wannabe groupies. That’s not to say his entire support is from worshipers, not at all. Plenty of people have reasoned arguments to support Obama, But Jeebus! There are a lot fucking more who think the guy is semi-divine.
It’s fucked up.
Just Some Fuckhead
You aren’t calling bullshit on anything, you’re just being an ass. The scenario behind the polls on which I was originally commenting is that one candidate is awarded the nomination over the other candidate by the superdelegates regardless of what happened in the state contests. If this happens to Obama, who cares, he was ahead in pledged delegates anyway. If it happens to HRC, why in hell would Obama supporters be happy with the person who came in second in the primary contests being awarded the nomination over the first place finisher?
You’re just a fly on my damn hamburger, anonymous commenter. You don’t have any more sway over my emotions than that.
t jasper parnell
My language was perhaps imprecise. More Clinton voters than Obama voters will either not vote for the Democratic Nomineee or vote for McCain. Clinton and Obama espouse more or less the same policies; McCain is batshit crazy. How, I ask, are Cliton’s supporters not voting person over policy?
Tlaloc
“anyone who leads a following of people who are willing to vote against what their candidate stands for if their candidate doesn’t win the nomination are nothing but a personality cult.”
See above. It is perfectly reasonable for moderate dems to be split between a “moderate” republican and a liberal democrat. What moderate dems want politicially may very be better served by McCain than Obama. That’s purely rational.
Dennis - SGMM
William Tecumseh Sherman famously said, “If nominated I will not run; if elected I will not serve.”
Hillary has become the obverse of Sherman.
flyerhawk
TrampantZexist,
Good work.
Tlaloc,
While people can argue for popular vote it only matters to the SDs and so far they seem utterly unimpressed by that argument. The SDs keep flooding to Obama.
Obama raised 31 million in April. 93% of donors gave less than 100 dollars. 200,000 new donors. Wow.
t jasper parnell
McCain is not a moderate. He is bat shit crazy and will do to this country what Reagan, Bush I and Bush II did. If you do not understand this, than you have not been paying attention.
cleek
not really
knock off the bullshit. you don’t have any data to back any of that up.
Conservatively Liberal
From Hillaryis44:
and:
and:
That is just a quick grab out of one thread. I can go to TalkLeft and do the same thing, same with NQ and Taylor Marsh.
Now why should we not call people like this bunch of groupies a “cult”? Because that is exactly how they are acting. They are the deaf and dumb, being led around by their noses by the blind.
Tlaloc
“You aren’t calling bullshit on anything, you’re just being an ass.”
You made a mistake, I called you on it, you got abusive. That’s me being an ass?
“If it happens to HRC, why in hell would Obama supporters be happy with the person who came in second in the primary contests being awarded the nomination over the first place finisher?”
They don’t have to be happy about it but in that case HILLARY won the primary. She didn’t come in second because she won. See how that works? The Superdelegates are part of the primary.
Obama is leading in the primary so far (and is essentially assured of winning). If Hillary pulls off a miraculous win, then obama supporters can be bummed/angry, but they can’t be angry that she won even though she was in second place because she then *wasn’t* in second place.
It’s like arguing that the team that did best in the first part of a relay should be angry that a different team crossed the finish line first. Well, no they shouldn’t be, seeing how it is the finish line and not the first leg that matters. If Hillary crosses the finish line first (again not happening) then she crossed first, doesn’t matter that Obama looked like he would win, he didn’t.
Tlaloc
“Clinton and Obama espouse more or less the same policies;”
“McCain is batshit crazy.”
Those are subjective opinions (ones I mostly share btw) not facts. That being the case you can’t assume others hold the same views.
Tlaloc
“knock off the bullshit. you don’t have any data to back any of that up.”
Data? I’m explaining logically why a clinton supporter *might* prefer McCain to Obama. I wasn’t telling you it was x% of all clinton supporters. The demand for data here seems peculiar.
Tlaloc
“Now why should we not call people like this bunch of groupies a “cult”? ”
Because there are *many* more people who fit that description on *your* side. That’s why it’s a bad idea. The charge has merit, certainly, but when it hurts you more than the other guy you are better off not making it.
Conservatively Liberal
Thanks for the correction, I lost that point in the heat of the post.
It is times like this that I like being wrong. ;)
Wow is right! The MUP is kicking ass and taking cash…lol!
cleek
yes, data.
because your theory that Obama is too far to the left just doesn’t hold water. for example, it doesn’t explain why a Clinton-supporting Texas state delegate would say this:
doesn’t really sound like she’s too afraid of his position on the left/right scale, does it ?
Dennis - SGMM
Where do I sign?
cleek
got any data to back that up ?
Just Some Fuckhead
First, as I indicated earlier, I didn’t make a mistake. If you’d like to make a statement to the world that the superdelegates won’t be awarding the nomination to the second place finisher if they give the nomination to HRC, you might have a better reception over on Talkleft.
Just Some Fuckhead
Tialoc, I don’t mind you ignoring what you can’t rebut. That’s pretty standard Clinton troll behavior. But I’m honestly interested in how caucus state voters aren’t real people but Michigan and Florida are full of real people. Maybe you could clear that up for us………………..
Conservatively Liberal
Shorter confloyd: ‘Give us what we want or we will try to make you and your daughters suffer.’
That is just disturbing to read. Heartless, absolutely heartless, and she is talking about people of her own gender. But just another Hillary supporter. ‘Me! Me! Me!‘
Sick.
t jasper parnell
No they are not subjective opinions: McCain wants to extend the tax cuts for the rich; stay in Iraq until victory; has never voted for reproductive rights; votes with his party on nearly every issue of import, i.e., supreme court nominees including Bork; will not vote to outlaw torture, which is already illeagal; has no clue who is who in the middle east; has no clue about the economy and no idea how to fix it; etc etc etc
t jasper parnell
Many more Clinton suppoters will either not vote or vote for McCain. You need to show that Obama’s policies are out of whack with the Democratic platform and if you cannot then cease making unfounded assertions.
flyerhawk
Tlaloc isn’t a troll.
Just Some Fuckhead
Yeah, and I ain’t a fuckhead.
Liberal Masochist
Flyerhawk Says:
Tlaloc isn’t a troll.
That’s correct. He is a knucklehead. Calling a few rabid supporters of Obama (or any candidate for that matter) on some blog few people read relative to the overall supporter/voter base (no offense JC) is ridiculous. Most voters are pretty regular people and if they like one candidate over another it more than likely is not in a “cultish” way.
JSF is engaging in a bit of hyperbole, but in essence he is 100% right in saying that 100% of obama voters would be disappointed if the SD’s defected en masse to push NRC over the top.
Adam
In a different thread “RampantSexist” said they weren’t any good at spoofing. I think the real answer is that people here aren’t any good at detecting spoofing. Seriously, did no one see the term with the (TM) after in in the various comments earlier?
The Moar You Know
Facts are so fucking inconvenient for Clintards.
flyerhawk
Adam,
It was fairly obvious who RampantSexism was from about his first post.
RampantSexism
It’s tedious that you guys try to blow off anyone who doesn’t fit your standard mold of behavior or opinion as a spoof.
Are you so afraid of an alternative point of view?
Conservatively Liberal
Post away! Just remember that if people do not agree with you or find what you say to be beyond reason, expect to hear about it. If they agree with all or part of what you say, expect to hear about that.
But don’t whine if you don’t like what is said in response to you. Fire back, argue or whatever. But if you whine you can expect an avalanche of ridicule.
We are just peculiar like that. Nobody is holding a gun to our heads to post, and the same goes for you. Having a thick skin helps, plus real facts that are on your side really help.
As Hillary sez: ‘If you can’t stand the heat…’
Adam
Jeez, I thought so, but, apparently not?
Shygetz
Actually, if aliens come down from Uranus and zap the Rules Committee with their mind control ray, the Rules Committee can change the rules to make Zardoz the Democratic nominee within the established bylaws of the party, regardless of the number of delegates either Obama or Clinton has.
As before- that’s not likely to happen, but your statement was wrong.
You made a mistake, I called you on it. That’s me being an ass?
kwAwk
sstarr Says:
kwAwk:
I would first like to state that I liked Biden, Edwards, Clinton and Richardson better than Obama. Gravel you can keep.
I didn’t start off disliking Obama, he just wasn’t my first choice in a nominee. What started to change that was when he sent his supporters out to call Bill Clinton a racist when Clinton called his campaign a ‘fairy tale’. There was nothing racist about Clinton’s remarks and I thought it was absolutely classless. Thats when he lost me as being a post-racial candidate. Thats also when the black vote went from the low 70s to Obama to the high 80s and low 90s.
The second thing that turned me against Obama was during whichever debate it was, he was sitting there insisting that his Healthcare plan was the same as Hillary’s when in fact he allowed for millions of people to ‘voluntarily’ opt out of the program because he said that even though he would make healthcare so cheap that nobody wouldn’t be able to afford it, he thought it would be unfair to penalize people who couldn’t afford it. Thats when I decided he was full of shit and didn’t really care about core Dem issues.
The third issue I have with Obama is his plan for Social Security which seems to be lifting the cap on Social Security wages without raising the maximum payout. His plan basically turns Social Security into the world’s largest welfare program, which is exactly what Democrats have been fighting to stay away from for as long as I can remember. The notion of turning Social Security into a welfare program only benefits those who wish to destroy it and will only lead to an intensified effort on their part. That what makes me believe that he is so busy pretending to be apolitical that he doesn’t understand the political ramifications of his actions.
And is John McCain the best Republican candidate? Yes. If you had to pick somebody in an anti-Republican electoral year to pick up the Repub banner and carry it, you couldn’t do much better than a Senator who is a distinguished war hero who has a reputation for bucking his own party leadership, saying what he means, and being willing to cross the aisle and enacting compromise bills with the likes of Teddy K. and Fiengold. You may not like the fact that McCain has these traits as his reputation, but that doesn’t change the fact that this is how people in the center feel about McCain.
Obama is winning the election with only 50% of the delegate count and why is this bad? Well, Obama is running as the unity candidate and the we need to be nicer to Republicans candidate in a year where the Democrats were pretty well unified before he got in the race, and the public is so fed up with Republicans that the Democrats didn’t really need to be ‘nice’ to Republicans this year. So what was the point of his campaign?
Onihanzo
Despite your rambling incoherency, here’s a bit of advice. It’s a presidential primary. Clinton supporters will either fall in line once the nomination is secured or they won’t. If they don’t, fuck ’em in their good eye. No one’s been able to prove to me that conservative-tilting Democrats have helped this party in the years since the DLC was put into action. So they can take their political anchor and try to swim to another shore if they don’t like the way the party is changing.
For all the histrionics, I seem to remember this ‘take our ball and go home’ tantruming from Deaniacs just prior to Kerry securing it. You’ll fall in. Don’t embarrass yourself by saying you won’t.
You’ll all fall in.
kwAwk
Well Onihanzo, you keep believing that and I’ll keep sitting here waiting for that thrill to run up my leg.
RampantSexism
You left off Harold Stassen?
OniHanzo
And if you don’t… watch me give a flying monkey fuck.
kwAwk
RampantSexism Says:
Yes, unfortunately Stassen appears to be dead. Though I don’t think the Constitution says anything about dead people being prohibited from being President, personlly I don’t think it is a desirable trait.
kwAwk
RampantSexism Says:
Yes, unfortunately Stassen appears to be dead. Though I don’t think the Constitution says anything about dead people being prohibited from being President, personlly I don’t think it is a desirable trait.