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This post is in: I Can No Longer Rationally Discuss The Clinton Campaign
Anyone who thinks this is over has not seen the snarling and sneering Harold Ickes on Meet The Press.
This ain’t over, and they are going to push and do everything they can to lose this election for Obama. Russert, to his credit, is laughing at Ickes.
*** Update ***
The other thing that drives me insane is the notion that the RBC determined the Michigan split. Unless I am wholly mistaken, didn’t the Michigan Democratic party decide on the split? The RBC just voted on their petition.
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[…] BUT SOME SEE THE INSTIGATORS OF PARTY DISUNITY on another side… And some say that side has a duty to try and unify the party. MEANWHILE, SOME DEMOCRATS LOOK AT BOTH SIDES and feel see bad attitudes in both camps… […]
[…] it will become clear that it is impossible to get the needed delegate numbers, and they will quit. Sphere: Related ContentWith the caveat that a meteor could hit Obama or somesuch. [↩] Previous Related Posts ClintonVows to Take FL/MI Fight to the Convention […]
wvng
Steve Benen (Carpetbagger) this morning: “There’s a light at the end of the tunnel. It does not appear to be a train.”
I, frankly, have no clue what the Clinton campaign will do. I’ve been expecting them to take the high ground, at least occasionally, for a long time. So far, they have disappointed me.
El Cid
Keep in mind this is contextual behavior which is likely to change over time. Right now, there are a lot of people like Ickes who believe that they still have a chance to win or get their way and an awesome power to wield. As the scales begin to fall from their eyes, no matter how hard they work to keep them on, it’s highly likely the attitude will change.
We’ve all been driven out of our regular sanity sometimes at losing something we really wanted more than anything and nearly had. But most of us wind down over a few days, and those that don’t will be constantly undermining their own case in public and among party power structures.
dreggas
I just read that Clinton denounced the decision of the RBC. If she can’t have the nomination she’ll take the whole party straight to hell.
zoe from pittsburgh
Tim asked him TWICE if Obama hits the new magic number this week will Hillary say congratulations?
Ickes said, twice, “We expect to get the nomination.” Then explained that he doesn’t accept the premise of the question.
WHAAAA?
He point blank said that he refuses to ACCEPT THE IDEA OF HILLARY LOSING.
Hillary has made her share of mistakes, but I think at it’s core her campaign’s major problem is that her biggest advisors are AWFUL– Ickes and McAullife are as STUPID as they are NUTS. They should be like Bob Shrum now, no one who wants to win a campaign should let any of these jokers anywhere near their campaign.
SnarkyShark
Maybe, but Russert is an example of what will be happening to Hillary in general. Laughter.
They can try to take it to the convention, but after Montana the supers will shove it up Hillarys ass sideways.
The Party has decided, and any of the pols that wish to have a future will do what they are told by Pelosi, Dean et al.
I don’t think this will hurt us in the general, and Obama will declare the win and focus on McCain.
Everything Hillary does from now on will help/hurt her political future. It’s up to her.
I think a lot of people got a real good look at the nut-jobs, and want no part.
El Cid
The DLC movement is about to lose its hold over the party, a battle they waged since the mid-1980s. They don’t want to let it go.
leo
It’s over. By the end of next week we’ll be looking back at these days of trial and tribulation and we’ll wonder what all the commotion was all about.
Mutaman
“Russert, to his credit, is laughing at Ickes”
And we now know that General Electric has never, and will never, interfere in russert’s laughter.
dr. bloor
Today is the day between the Saturday RBC meeting and another small wave of SDs announcing for Obama on Monday. By next Sunday, the bobblehead shows will be populated with folks talking about prospective Veeps for McCain and Obama, Obama’s latest smackdown of McCain or some such. Even if they want to keep it going–and they probably do–by the time they get to Denver, the HRC machine will consist solely of delusional sycophants and Operation Chaos plants.
VidaLoca
Right. Both country and party mean little in the end.
What matters is holding on to power.
And the two images of Hillary Clinton that will remain standing above the rubble of her campaign will be her vote for the AUMF (and Kyl-Lieberman) and her invocation of her strength among her base of low-education, low-income working-class white people as reason for her to prevail.
You don’t find honesty like that often, unless it’s driven by desperation.
So as it falls apart the foundations of the DLC project stand revealed: neoliberalism and white privilege.
stevie314159
I actually thought Ickes dialed it down a little bit from yesterday’s rant.
The Hillary people are just hard-wired to not answer any hypothetical (even one based in 99.99% reality) until it actually truly happens.
It’s always raining lollipops in Hillaryland!
Incertus
Ickes said what he had to say. He can’t concede that Obama has it won right now, because he’s still playing to the Clinton hardcore. Clinton’s going to need them to help pay off her campaign debts, and if they perceive that she’s stabbing them in the back by giving up, they won’t come through. But the key moment yesterday was that 1) they lost Florida completely and 2) Clinton couldn’t hold onto all her loyalists on the Michigan vote. They’ve told her it’s over, and if she keeps it up, she’ll lose even more support.
dmsilev
So Ickes is vacillating between the Denial and the Anger stages of grief? I suppose that’s a good sign; the Clinton inner circle has been stuck purely at Denial for a long time now.
-dms
D-Chance.
Watched to Reliable Sources as they aired clips of Couric and Yellin. Amazing how McClellan’s criticism of the liberal media was defensed by both reporterettes by saying, “well, we WANTED to do our jobs; but the Corporate Man kept us down.”
Dusty
It seemed pretty clear there was no real support for restoring full voting rights to FL and MI and that’s not likely to change. Florida’s a done deal; Obama was on the ballot and isn’t contesting the split. All that’s left to fight over are uncommitted superdelegates and that contingent of MI delegates Obama maybe shouldn’t have gotten, depending on how closely you want to adhere to the rules. Assuming the superdelegates can be forced to take a side in the next week or so and they continue to break big for Obama, by August the MI delegates and any remaining stragglers won’t be enough to make a difference. Clinton can appeal for those 29.5 votes, but it won’t be enough.
Nate
This isn’t going anywhere. That performance by Ickes was one of the final, hilariously delusional death-throws of a pathetic politician and her equally disgusting supporters. It’s time to kiss the O-man’s ring. Losers.
sunny
None of the Clinton surrogates on the Sunday bobblehead shows was giving any indication whatsoever that they are suddenly going to become reasonable human beings and admit defeat.
I think in this case we can take them at their word.
zzyzx
I see it like a team losing a close game in the playoffs where there was a controversial – but inconclusive – call or two. The diehard fans will never accept the loss. “There was an obvious block in the back at the 20! How could that be ruled a touchdown?” Everyone else will get ready for the Super Bowl.
There will be some Clinton supporters we won’t get in November. With 5 months though between now and the general, people are going to start gravitating towards the interesting contest.
…oh and just to prove my point with some self mockery, to my dying day I will not accept that the Seahawks lost XL damnit!
ThymeZone
Ickes. Rove.
Ickes. Rove.
Ickes. Rove.
I have to get back to you, I can’t decide which of these two is worse.
Dennis - SGMM
They have far more in common with each other than they do with you and I.
nightjar
Not long ago I would have agreed, but now I’m not so sure. I don’t remember a campaign that’s pushed so hard for what can only be described as utterly corrupt notions of fairness. I think people like REndell and Alice Huffman will come around. But Ickes, Wolfson HRC and others seem to have Crossed the Rubicon into permanent victimhood and white hot destructo mode. And a significant minority of Hill’s supporters have crossed with them. I doubt it’s enough lost votes outright for Obama to cost him the election. But they will be loud and will inflict as much damage as possible to the Party and Obama’s campaign. It seems to me that Obama and his supporters (we’ins} will be fighting a two front campaign war up until election day.
sunny
Bill and Hill *have* to win so the Clinton Family can stage yet another coverup of Bush Family crimes and treason. That is why they are so desperate and destructive, and why they WILL NOT give up.
Dug Jay
On a more pleasant note, take about one minute to look at this hilarious ABC clip from last week’s Spelling Bee.
wvng
Also on a more pleasant note, Russert and Scottie this morning. This is really important, largely because of Russert’s framing for his question. While one wants to shout at Russert for his complicity in spreading the propaganda, I will settle for this being the new way Iraq is discussed. Hell for McCain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYZY3A2Jllc
zzyzx
I think the best spin possible for the Clinton camp is that they had a long shot lifeline to get the nomination. When your only chance for something you really want is a long shot, wishing for it can start to become believing it WILL happen.
It takes a little time to remember that it was a vague hope to begin with.
His Grace
Hillary is running out of room to manoeuvre. The reason she fought so hard over Michigan was if those 43 delegates were seated as uncommitted, Obama would be harder pressed to gain a delegate majority quickly after Tuesday. As things stand, he will likely have the magic number by late next week (if not sooner).
At that point things get interesting. It is possible that she is so power-hungry and/or convinced of her own self-righteousness that she’ll vow to fight on. But then, so what? Her die hard supporters may stick around, but she’s out of cash, out of arguments and really has no more room to manoeuvre. If she goes for the scorched earth campaign, which will be clear if she refuses to concede when Obama reaches the new magic number, she would need to keep most of her supporters onside, particuarly SDs. At present, I don’t see that happening.
Pug
If you thought Ickes was a hoot, you should have seen McAuliffe on This Week. He almost collapsed in a puddle of tears at the unfairness of it all.
They are trying to poison the well for Obama by making Clinton supporters thinks she was ripped off. Then, she can try again in 2012.
What they don’t realize is opposition to Hillary as the nominee would be even more hardened by then. I think the Clintons have lost the African American and “elitist” vote for good and the poor whites just might vote for a white man over Hillary next time, if there is one.
Wilfred
I hope she makes a complete fool of herself and has a public meltdown on national television. Then at Obama’a inauguration she can act out the opening scene from The Omen and take a full gainer with a tucked in Ickes from the top of the Capitol Building, shouting “All for you, Obammmmmmmmmmmmmmaaaaaaaaaaaa” on the way to splashdown.
This, I aver, would be cool, and a fitting end for such a formidable genius.
ThymeZone
Vince Foster called and said he expects to return to work soon.
The Moar You Know
John – no need to panic. This is over.
The Clinton campaign, at this point, is the newly-expelled class fuckup screaming “you haven’t heard the last of me!” as the truant officer, vice-principal and counselor (and maybe a cop for good measure) escort him off school property.
We may hear a couple of more “fuck you” screamed through the front door, or find some graffiti painted on the walls, but this is over. Ickes is now just doing what he’s paid to do – maximize what little remaining air time the MSM is going to give him.
Rick Taylor
I saw McAullife; it wasn’t that bad. He was doing what all politicians do; not ever admitting or talking from the premise his candidate might loose. It looks sillier because by now it’s apparent what’s going to happen, but it’s not any different than what politicians always do.
What was notable about it was he did not deny that if Obama got the official number of super-delegates required, Hillary would concede (he just said he thought Hillary would get that number first). He could have pushed it after all; he could have said they were unhappy with the rbc decision and didn’t accept the target number as a result (just as they were saying they wouldn’t accept 2025 beforehand), but he didn’t, and that’s good. I don’t know what Clinton’s going to do, but this didn’t give me cause to worry.
liberal
What I like best is this quote from Wikipedia:
Lupin
My bet is that a month or two from now, Hillary will be all lovey dovey towards Obama whom, as we know, she always supported.
Her fanatical supporters at TalkLeft etc. will be left with piss on their faces.
johnbpt
While I’m concerned about the impact of Hillary’s scumbaggery on Obama’s chances in November, I cling to this silver lining: The sham Clinton/DLC legacy lies in smoking ruins, never to be rehabilitated. About time.
ThymeZone
Wolfman “Reindeer” Blitzen has countered a GOP “Obama has bad pulpit” speech with a reference to Hagee and McCain.
It sounds like the MSM has decided it’s okay to suggest that Mister Magoo is not wearing a halo.
rollSound
What does that remind me of? Oh, yeah …
DonnaInMichigan
Come Tuesday, Obama plans on kicking off his election, in the same place as the republicans will hold their national convention, in the state of Minnesota..
Come Tuesday, Hillary plans on kicking off her “Weez wuz Robbed” tour, in the state of Denial.
ThymeZone
Ron Brown called and said that aside from losing his luggage, that last plane ride wasn’t really all that bad.
zzyzx
Oh BTW, don’t worry Clintonites, No Quarter has video of Michelle saying “Whitey” and they’ll reveal all at 9 AM tomorrow.
God, you guys all claimed that site was racist but I didn’t believe you until I read the comments.
johnbpt
Yeah, just hope he doesn’t come back with a gun.
Shalimar
She may think it’s going to the convention. Ditto for Ickes and McAuliffe. It doesn’t matter, it’s over. She lost 5 of her 13 supporters on the Rules Committee and those should be the die-hards. If she can’t keep them for the crucial vote of the campaign, other super-delegates are going to start peeling away after Tuesday to support the nominee. Fighting over 4 or even 40 Michigan delegates isn’t going to make much difference when she’s down by 400 or more a week from now.
demimondian
Sometimes, it’s quite clear the number of people here who’ve never been in a hard business or legal negotiation. There are a set of rules, and, yes, they make you think of the rules of fight club.
The first rule is: if you are advocating for a person or entity other than yourself, then you cannot ever concede the possibility of them losing. Period.
Ickes is *doing his job*. Period. Sorry, folks, I’m sure that you don’t like it, but the only person who can ever admit that HRC will ever publicly concede is Clinton herself. None of her negotiators can *ever* be the first to admit that she might lose — only she can do that. When pressed, he did exactly what he had to do, which is say “I expect her to win. I do not expect your hypothetical situation to obtain, so I do not expect it to matter.”
Davebo
No, they won’t reveal it, they’ll have “more news” regarding it.
Flowbee has totally lost it.
asl
Juan, your script is running its course. Clinton will keep going because, although she has a minute chance of winning the nomination this year, she rightfully knows that right now is her best chance. This year is a great year for Democrats. Who knows what the case will be in 2012?
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
To quote:
They’ve lost the media, John. And that was the only entity keeping them going. If Russert is laughing at you, you’re fucked, and they know it.
Do like Obama , and ignore them, and they’ll whittle down to nothing. We need your sound advice and words in the fight against McCain, man. Let Go of Clinton, and focus, before you turn in to Sully Redux.
ThymeZone
Yes, it’s called being a lawyer.
And lawyers wonder why everybody hates them.
Brachiator
Ickes can’t concede because Clinton can’t concede. He is her surrogate, not her puppetmaster.
She will take this to the convention and beyond unless someone can convince her that she has to concede in order to salvage her own career and to prevent animus from hurting the party’s chances in November.
Her behavior is best explained by the examples given in the book , Sway: The Irresistible Pull of Irrational Behavior.
Senator Clinton’s decisions are much like the example the Brafmans provide of an investor who bought a stock for his retirement fund at $44 a share, refused advice to sell it when it dipped to $42, and stubbornly held on until it dropped to 12 cents. The Brafmans also provide a chilling example of the smartest guy in the room, an airline pilot and safety expert, stubbornly ignoring advice and reality, making a decision that led to disastrous results, which can be read about here (Preview).
Senator Clinton has had numerous opportunities to bow out gracefully, but instead has only dug in deeper. She will have another opportunity to concede when the last primary is done. But it is a better bet that if the Puerto Rico primary turns out strongly in her favor, Clinton will keep banging on the idea that she is the stronger candidate, complete with her cynical manipulations of racial and gender divisiveness.
There is no grand strategy at work her. She never had a realistic chance of defeating Obama, and cannot rationally claim that she is laying the groundwork for a 2012 campaign should McCain win.
She is, after all, the Sun Queen, and can never acknowledge that she has been eclipsed.
cleek
one silver lining… if all the racists squeal and bolt to McCain, it will raise the overall morality of the Democratic party while lowering that of the GOP. it’s a hard price to pay, but it might just be worth it, in the long run.
demimondian
No. It’s not called being a lawyer. It’s called being a negotiator. Many, but not all, difficult public negotiations are carried out by attorneys, and, outside the public sphere, very few are. If you want to see a very different negotiation which has the same dynamic as the HRC dynamic, look at the Yahoo!-Microsoft merger, in which none of the major players are attorneys.
asl
One mistake people are making (as I had been) is suggesting with the Super Delegates will do. We don’t have any idea what they’ll do. How quaint are those days when a candidate could stand up at the end of an election or primary season and proclaim victory. Now, it seems just as likely that the final decision is forestalled by court proceedings or party procedures (ie committee or unelected delegates). It’s highly plausible that Obama is put over the top after Tuesday with the breaking news that Congresswoman Jane Doe’s vote wins the nomination for him.
dr. bloor
Until they need one, of course.
johnbpt
So he’s “just following orders,” right? Got it.
demimondian
Has it ever occurred to you that it’s an obscenity to compare the murder of millions of Jews to Harold Ickes’ doing a job which you personally don’t like, but which is, in a very real sense, the epitome of resistance to the Nazis?
If the Clintons were, in any way, shape, or form, Nazi-esque, they’d have used their undeniable popularity to steal the election of 2000 from GWB in the first place. Instead, they stood aside, and *followed the rule of law*, and they and theirs have continued to do so.
SnarkyShark
Pelosi has already laid out how its going to go down. They are not going to go against the power elite, and they are Obama’s now.
Why did anybody think the DLC was going give up without the dirtiest lowdown fight imaginable. The corporatist greased all the right palms, it was supposed to be in the bag.
But going down they are.
Headache
This.
I can do without the closet racists, yahoos and spineless DLC losers, even if it means Obama only beats McCain by 5% instead of 8% in the general. Take your fraudulent claims of misogyny and voter suppression and cram ’em with walnuts.
ThymeZone
Actually, yes it is. But, whatever. You have to take your opportunities for blather where you can get them, I suppose.
No, having a lawyer doesn’t stop most people from hating lawyers.
And why should it? The lawyer paradigm is repellent. Represent your client’s interests, almost no matter what. If you need your interests represented, that feels like a good thing, for a while. But any other time, it’s just a hideous idea. It leads to Ickes-ness.
“My client has instructed me to say that she can take this to the credentials committee.” Well, good for her, that’s her prerogative. But it’s too bad she had to hire a rattlesnake that eats kittens to say it, eh?
lou
Yeah, he can keep that up and piss off Carl Levin and Jennifer Granholm and all the Michigan delegation, who were mostly Clinton supporters but crafted this compromise. Levin sounded pretty ticked at Ickes during yesterday’s proceedings.
Davis X. Machina
If the Clintons were, in any way, shape, or form, Nazi-esque, they’d have used their undeniable popularity to steal the election of 2000 from GWB in the first place.
They weren’t running, either of them.
Al Gore wasn’t worth going to war to save.
mcd
I am a bit worried that she’s going to run as an independent. I’m just not sure Clinton can accept losing, having been so close.
crw
Correct. This needs to be repeated loudly and frequently. All the RBC did was ratify the plans the state parties came up with, then applied the across-the-board 50% penalty to keep some modicum of control over the primary schedule.
Hillary lost Fowler. It’s over. Both the new and old power structures of the DNC are against her. She can try to take it to the convention, but she’ll be arguing against the DNC, the Michigan Democratic Party and the Obama campaign. She’ll be laughed out of the credentials committee, and if she tries to take it to a floor fight I bet the results will look like yesterday. Obama, his supporters, and the DNC come out looking like adults, and HRC and her goons come out looking like petulant children.
Just Some Fuckhead
I was browsing through my old book of Barron’s Business Cartoons last night in the reading room and ran across one from Mike Shapiro that seemed to
captureprophesy the Clinton campaign:I posted a picture of it here.
Brachiator
Running as an independent would be an express train to political oblivion.
I don’t think that even Hillary’s delusional ambition would be boundless enough to induce her to run as an independent.
Not even if she could persuade Ralph Nader to run as her VP.
Observer
Works for me. Same as it ever was, and good riddance.
Roots Of The Southern Strategy
KRK
It’s like a further iteration of 1948. Then it was little-known Minneapolis mayor Hubert Humphrey giving a rousing convention speech for the pro-civil rights minority position, tipping the mood of the conventioneers, which led to a narrow vote in favor of a civil rights party platform and precipitated the Dixiecrat walkout. The Dixiecrats were convinced that the Democratic party couldn’t win a national election without them and that by forcing the issue they could ensure that the party would never again take up a national civil rights platform. Truman won anyway.
theturtlemoves
You got that from “just following orders”? Damn. So, anyone that just follows orders is automatically a Nazi? Didn’t read it that way myself, but whatever steps your goose, I guess.
dr. bloor
In your infinite wisdom, would you care to clarify the line between “good thing” and “Ickes-ness,” so all the lawyers out there–not just the ones represeting HRC, but the ones trying to get guys railroaded into convictions off death row, the ones making noise for people being evicted to facilitate condo conversions, the ones defending guys DWB–can start behaving properly? Because we sure wouldn’t want them offending your sensibilities any longer. Just out of curiosity, would Ickes have been Icky had he been acting this way on behalf of Al Gore in 2000?
Look, I hate the HRC lot as much as anyone, but he’s just doing what guys in his position are supposed to do. It’s theater at this point, nothing else, because the money and press coverage is thisclose to evaporating for them
crw
It’s too late for her to get ballot access in most states. If she was going to run as an independent, she needed to start petition drives to get on the ballots months ago. For instance, it’s too late for her to get on the Texas ballot – signatures were due May 8th.
The Other Steve
I suspect after tuesday, you’ll see not just the undeclared superdelegates come out, but also at least half of the Hillary super delegates. She’ll be down by about 700 delegates at that point, and it’ll be clear it’s over for her.
demimondian
For those of you who aren’t used to arguing with TZ, this is his way of saying “Oops. I got nothing, and I just got shown for a fool, but I gotta have the last word.”
Dennis - SGMM
She’d find it difficult, at this point, to get on the ballot in more than a handful of states. Her campaign is thirty million in debt already and she’ll need help to pay that off – let alone raise sufficient funds for an unsupported run in the general election. The primaries were as much about maintaining the DLC’s grip on power as they were about Clinton’s ego and sense of entitlement. Now that the RBC has affirmed that it’s Obama’s party, the Clintons will have to decide whether they want to make nice and hold on to a shred of influence within the party or act as spoilers and become pariahs.
Incertus
Oh give it a rest. The phrase “just following orders” has been linked to Nazis since they used it as an excuse at Nuremberg, and anyone with the slightest grasp of history knows it.
ThymeZone
Well, that is the gamble we are taking, and in my case, taking willingly. Barack is the guy who can overcome that demographic shift, by countering with another shift: The move to the polls of people who would otherwise stay home.
Our gamble this year is that the number of people who will be moved to vote because of Obama will out number the people who would be moved to vote against him for pathological reasons. Let’s not kid ourselves, that latter demo is real, and it’s going to count. But I believe that the counter-demo is also real and will outnumber the hillbillies and latent hillbillies.
And the great thing is, when we do it and beat the evil Mister Magoo, we’ll have a lot more than just a “black president,” we’ll have a real difference from the self-serving crap we’ve had for the last 30 years.
Therein, for me, lies much of the appeal of Barack’s candidacy. This ain’t magical pony stuff, this is real vote counting and coalition building and demographics. I think it’s a realignment.
ThymeZone
I’m sorry, did you think you were arguing with me?
What on earth for, demi?
Oh go ahead, you silly goose, write another thousand words on how what Ickes is doing is not “being a lawyer.” It will make you feel so much better.
Seriously, the floor is yours. Knock yourself out. You know you want to.
dreggas
I’m betting he made this shit up just to give people a sick twisted form of hope.
demimondian
I’ve already given an example, and I only needed two words: Yahoo-Microsoft.
You’re a whiny fool, and, like I said, you got nothing. Now, go away, mini-Ickes. You *haven’t* got his reason for being a stubborn jackass.
PeterJ
My guess is that he stopped taking his medication and now he gets visited at night by people telling him of secret things and conspiracies.
Dennis - SGMM
Maybe not, they just found out that you can’t use a trial version of Photoshop to dub voices onto video.
Just Some Fuckhead
You were modifying the wrong noun.
ThymeZone
God, don’t you ever stop reading computer magazines?
Get a life man, there is a real world out here.
KCinDC
I suppose it’s true that Ickes is just doing his job, but does it really help Clinton for him to appear on national TV spouting lines that make him look as delusional as Muhammad Saeed “Baghdad Bob” al-Sahhaf? Having a spokeperson who’s a laughingstock is generally not a good thing.
west coast
For Clinton this really is about the future of the Democratic party. The DLC-ers believe that the future of the Democratic party lies in being “Republican lite,” which is why some Clinton supporters see McCain as being not very much different from Hillary…not nearly as different as Obama.
But there’s something else in the works here, not just McCain liteness, but a generational thing at work. The same folks who famously declared that we should never trust anyone over 30 are now declaring that we should never trust anyone under 60. The self-absorbed “me” generation that brought us Chicago ’68 wants to bring us the geriatric version in Denver, ’08.
They’re demonstrating that growing older isn’t at all the same as growing up.
ThymeZone
Hey, it seems to work for Republicans ……….
smiley
This from someone who posts here 24/7?
Incertus
He’s gotten used to the ad revenue and he sees it coming to an end?
nightjar
Ickes in fact has two jobs right now. One is to represent Hillary Clinton, the other as a prominent member of the DNC. He can defend HC with gusto only up to the point whereas he violates a greatly loyalty — that to the good of the party as a whole. In fact you could say that about any dem who supports a particular candidate has that greater loyalty, in a more informal sense. The situation is not comparable to a legal fight between two separate entities and their lawyers. The dem party is a family of sorts, whereupon in a struggle of wills neither side completely losses or wins. It is how the fight is conducted that is most important, and ensures the Party will always be the ultimate winner when the smoke settles.
Dug Jay
El Cid
“There is no presence of Obama delegates in the Democratic Party.”
“We blocked them inside the [RBC]. Their rear is blocked…. They pushed a few of their [voting members of the RBC] and some [superdelegates] with their [overall lead]. We besieged them and I think we will finish them soon.”
“This [Obama nomination struggle] will end in failure.”
JL
Fafblog answers all!! http://www.fafblog.blogspot.com
demimondian
You’re a whiny fool, and, like I said, you got nothing. Now, go away, mini-Ickes. You haven’t got his reason for being a stubborn jackass.
MBunge
“Look, I hate the HRC lot as much as anyone, but he’s just doing what guys in his position are supposed to do.”
The problem is that what Ickes is doing is irresponsible. When the committee voted the way it did, whatever his previous beliefs, Ickes had to know that there was no longer ANY WAY for Hillary to win. Yet, even though her defeat is now unavoidable…he deliberately tried to delegimitize the process and fan anger and resentment among Hillary supporters. To Ickes and his ilk, it’s always someone else’s job to be responsible and do the right thing…but that attitude only encourages everyone else to be just as irresponsible.
Mike
cleek
right
cleek
wait, the Clintons are acting lawyerly and treating the law as something to be bent and twisted so that they can get their way ? that can’t be true.
KC
It’s all up to the supers now and it seems obvious which candidate has the momentum now. That said, what’s up with this Michelle Obama “whitey” thing? I keep seeing it pop up in various places around the web.
demimondian
That’s always a tough call.
When you’re in the last phase of losing a tough negotiation — and HRC is — the public advocate has to make a tough choice between taking on the ghastly and humiliating job of being Baghdad Bob or tucking your tail between your legs and running. The loyal ones play Baghdad Bob to the bitter end; the smart ones bail before the bitter end gets too bitter.
I can’t read Ickes mind, but there are two possibilities. Either he truly believes that HRC will pull it out in the end — which is possible; despite everyone’s claims of Clintonian cynicism, some number of her inner circle are motivated by blind faith, and we don’t know who they are — or he has made a bet with himself that she will concede before his career is sucked down in the vortex of her final sinking.
demimondian
I can’t tell if that is so or not. It would really depend on what the meaning of “is” is, you know…
KC
Again, does anybody know where this Michelle Obama “whitey” video thing came from? Is it even real, a well preserved nuke to throw by the Clinton camp or Republicans? Or, is it just some mind game thing that a few Republicans or Clinton supporters came up with? Obviously, if there’s some truth to it, it could be devastating for Obama.
zzyzx
No one believes it is real except for some racist anti-Obama supporters. I’ll believe it when it surfaces, especially because it’s already morphing in the telling of it; now Michelle has screamed, “Kill whitey.”
Uh-huh, and the Clinton forces didn’t find this in time to save her candidacy.
Brachiator
Very well said!
theturtlemoves
I’ve also heard it frequently cited in cases like My Lai, the defense of the few bad apples at Abu Ghraib, etc. But thank you for informing me I don’t have the slightest grasp of history. I just thought demi’s reaction was a bit over the top in taking what may very well have been an implicit suggestion and making it quite explicit. From his other posts on the thread, it looks like he takes the whole idea of vigorous defense of a client personally, so I guess I shouldn’t have jumped on the hyperbole as I did.
So, does having my intelligence questioned make me part of the BJ club now?
demimondian
And would comparing Harold Ickes’ behavior with any of those things be any less obscene? It would be kind of like pointing out, say, that Buchenwald was “only” a work camp, not a terrible death camp like Auschwitz.
Now, where have I heard that recently?
Dennis - SGMM
She’d have delivered a pants suit stuffed with thousand dollar bills for that tape. It doesn’t exist except in the fevered imaginations of Clinton die-hards.
demimondian
Yes, that’s true, and that’s why I doubt that it exists.
If Clinton has such a bombshell, it will not be her or her supporters who make it public, but some official of the Democratic Party. It will be carefully vetted, and then someone — probably someone African-American — will be the appointed Judas. It won’t be Clinton, because the party will want to save as much of November as can be salvaged.
Thus, I doubt that the video exists, or, if it does, that it’s more than a poorly dubbed piece of crap.
Dennis - SGMM
I’ve said it before:
M.O.: “This is our neighbor, Jim White, he…
KC
It’s a pretty f’n ugly rumor/smear as it stands now. It feels sort of like a last ditch mind game thing to get supers, or at least people in supers’ districts and states, worried and riled up.
theturtlemoves
Agreed, those would also be over the top. I was just being kind of a dick for theatrical purposes, but it fell a little flat, so I’ll avoid the theatricality in the future.
Dennis - SGMM
Ugly it is to be sure. The rumors are a symptom of last gasp, magical thinking on the part of some Clinton supporters. That the video will never actually be seen won’t deter a segment of them from believing that it exists. The fun part will be seeing the excuses for not producing the thing and the conspiracy theories that spring up around it.
demimondian
Yeah, it is, and it’s pissing me off. I’ve also seen RedState reporting Snuffalupagus’ claim that there are going to be “more releases” about Trinity UCC, which has the same smell about it.
Then again, American politics has never been about anything except smear campaigns, so we might as well buckle up and hold on for the ride.
demimondian
Oh, no, don’t do that — just expect to get pounded on for it.
(And always leave yourself an escape hatch when you do it, so that you have some rhetorical jiujitsu to use on the pounder.)
TheFountainHead
On an off-topic note, has anyone seen Andromeda Strain on A&E? I was a huge fan of the book, but I’m not sure how I feel about watching the movie, anyone seen it and had thoughts one way or the other?
smiley
Larry Johnson at NO QURTER.
KCinDC
KC, what the hell makes you pay any attention to the rumors about the Michelle Obama tape, any more than any other baseless story? Presumably those tapes are in the same place as the photos of Kitty Dukakis burning the American flag — that is, the imagination of a Republican (or on this case possibly Clintonite) consultant. Don’t be so easily spooked.
Dug Jay
It stinks even more than ThymeZone on a Saturday night….at least according to Mrs. ThymeZone
Dennis - SGMM
Hell, I come here to occasionally express my theatrical dickitude as well as my insightful and well-crafted comments (Every one out of hundred of them). Don’t give up, just kind of keep Demi’s advice in mind.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
dr. bloor is right on the money here.
TZ,
It pains me to say this both as a noob on this blog and because I sympathize with your point of view and greatly enjoy your posts for their obvious passion and frequent insight based on long experience with politics, but IMHO you would be doing yourself and everyone else a favor if you would just lay off with this running feud you have with demi.
If demi says something truly stupid (which IMHO is a very rare event) there are more than enough other people around here who will step up to the plate when the occasion warrants. You just make yourself look silly with these over the top rants that anything demi writes seems to trigger from you in an almost Pavlovian manner. The contrast in sharpness between them and your other posts delivering a smackdown to other commentators is just painful to behold.
For example, you wrote:
this makes a great deal of sense, and contains a blend of realism and idealism that I strongly agree with. Just because you can hit towering home runs when you want to, doesn’t mean you need to swing at every pitch.
Keith
“Chief of Staff Harold Ickes”
“Press Secretary Lanny Davis”
“Secretary of Homeland Security That-Screeching-Lady-From-The-RBC-Lobby”
Chills run up my spine.
Dennis - SGMM
HHS Secretary Geraldine Ferraro.
SECDEF Joe Lieberman.
Attorney General Harold Ickes.
UN Ambassador Bill Clinton.
demimondian
It’s easy to say that, hard to not do that.
This is one of those things you need to take day by day. Make no mistake about it, this is an sophisticated disinformation campaign, based on creating the illusion of “distant thunder”, something big and inchoate, undefinable and awful, but not well enough established that it can ever be refuted. The point is to create an illusion that “something” must be there, so that the statement “Well, you know what he really believes” is believed to be shared knowledge (although, in fact, it will not be).
Combating that will be a challenge. The key thing will be making it clear that, in fact, “what he really believes” is not, in fact, common shared knowledge. That is: Obama is going to have to define himself, instead of letting McCain and his surrogates do so.
Just Some Fuckhead
It happened alright. It happened in June of ’89 when the Cardinals played the Cubs at Wrigley Field. The “Whitey” in question was Whitey Herzog, manager of the Cardinals. Many Cubs fans were upset that the Cardinals had beaten them three in a row. The “Kill Whitey” chant is what is thought to have inspired the Cubs to victory in the fourth game.
Chuck Butcher
Tue is the end of the Primaries and Clinton and her supporters deserve to finish it. Not from some moral high ground by because they’ve invested in the process. Hillary is a proxy high stakes poker player with chips that can’t be returned, she’ll play the hands out. The people she is proxying for won’t accept less.
I didn’t hear Ickes, I will later today. I find him grating and hypocritical, but the campaign runs through Tue, not today. Maybe Hillary could have quit months ago without essentially betraying her supporters, but that was when she had some real shot at this, since then it’s been ever so close but not quite enough. Her voters want a hearing and I’m all for that. The tone is the question.
You can’t say, ‘well we lost’ and go to Tue. It isn’t that political operatives cannot do addition and subtraction in private, they simply cannot announce the results, they announce “hope.” There is a large block of women and their close supporters who will not accept surrender in the face of odds, they may in the face of fact. There are a lot of folks on this site that have fought losing battles for a long time, hope and determination kept them going. Hillary can say, ‘ok not this time girls,’ but not during the fight.
It’s the 15th round, you’re too far behind in points to make it all you’ve got is a knock out and your punching isn’t looking like it can do it. The doctors won’t stop it, so there you are in the ring – what do you do? Make your best fight, no head butting or low blows, just do it.
I started analyzing this thing when Hillary started making moves and Hillary lost this thing because she’s Hillary. A ‘not-Hillary’ candidate with her advantages going in would have wiped the floor but there you are…she’s Hillary. I don’t like her, I’ve opposed her every step of the way except calling for her withdrawal. She is a credible candidate and she’s earned finishing and more importantly the voters deserve their say. I’ll be glad to say bye-bye to her, that’s something different.
The fact that McAuliff and Ickes and Penn are important in her team is one of the features that lost this thing, expecting them to be other is silly. They’re gone in a few days, there’s no place for them in Obama’s organization, the DNC is done with their version, other candidates will look at this mess of a campaign and want them?? G’nite guys, you’re done. Now let’s elect Obama, and some of that involve not kicking the responsible Hillary supporters, the Hilloons will be fun for awhile – though.
demimondian
Fingernails on a chalkboard.
(Although, to be fair, one could actually do far worse than UN Ambassador William Jefferson Clinton.)
You had me at Press Secretary Lanny Davis, though.
demimondian
Nah. The Obama’s are from the South Side — Hyde Park, remember? She’s pure working class Chicago.
No Wrigley Field for her, JSF. We’re talking White Sox, all the way. American League. Designated Hitter Rule. Kill Whitey? Never!
Cain
Are you serious? jeezus.. so the video is her chanting at a sports arena “kill whitey” with rest? Shit on a stick..
cain
Callisto
Am I the only one who thinks it’s also an obscenity to compare the job of “lying douchelord PR flack for a second-rate american politician” to “the epitome of resistance to the Nazis”?
I’m sure if my grandfather (who was a member of the Polish resistance in WWII) were alive today he’d take umbrage with that comparison. Don’t try responding to a crappy comparison by making another crappy one.
Walker
Is this a joke? If that is really what they are talking about, then these people are crazier than I thought.
Just Some Fuckhead
I just want to note for the record that you’ve all disappointed me today. That was top-notch POTD snark. Just imagining the horrifically racially-loaded “Kill Whitey” used in a playful sports context against an old baseball legend is pure comedy gold.
Pearls before swine, I tells ya. Pearls before swine.
Rick Taylor
I saw the Ickes and McAuliffe interviews, and I’m going to predict the opposite. Shortly after the last primary is over and Obama passes the magic number. Neither of them took the opportunity to contradict the new magic number when it was mentioned, they just said they expected Clinton to pass it first, so I’m predicting it’s not going on past this week.
I won’t be shocked if I’m wrong, the truth of the matter is I don’t know what Clinton will do, but if I were to bet, that’s the way I’d bet. Of course by now no one should be depending upon her to do anything.
handy
JSF, Your knowledge of the Cubs is astounding. The aforementioned sweep you refer to did in fact happen the weekend of June 6, 1989.
And yes, as the Lloyd McClendon settled in, the last Cubs player at-bat and last hope to avoid the sweep, the centerfield TV camera got a tight shot at home plate, behind which a young and enthusiastic Michelle Robinson could be seen in the obscurity of the backstop screen mouthing the vitriolic “Kill Whitey” in chorus with the rest of the Cub faithful at Wrigley.
This footage is going to be explosive!
handy
And might I add that no explanation is needed for why Young Miss Robinson had such choice seats behind home plate. She is obviously an elitist and wouldn’t be caught dead soaking up the sun with the hoi polloi in the bleachers.
Just Some Fuckhead
Handy, you’ve restored my faith in humanity.
Rick Taylor
Oh, and here’s a video of Obama responding to Bill Clinton’s comments. I sure don’t see him playing the race card; he seems to be struggling to get it away from race. Again, i suspect you’ll have to go to a more pro-Clinton web-site to find out what they’re specifically responding to. Maybe it’s the flack the Ferraro got for saying Obama wouldn’t be in the position he is if he wasn’t black?
Rick Taylor
Whoops, please ignore that last post. Wrong thread.
nightjar
Same here. Because Base-a-ball has veen bery bery good to me.
And my REds just swept Atlanta. Go Big REd Machine!
mcd
Yes, and everything from the past two months leads me to believe she’d let the notion of Rules stand in her way. Heh.
(I admit I bet in Dec. that both parties would split this cycle — Clinton (D)/Obama (I) and Romney ( R)/Giuliani (I) — but that’s a dicussion for another time).
Marc
Ah, the secret is out. The Obama tape that they’re desperately trying to suppress:
Don’t Shoot Until You See the Whites
We’re doomed, doomed I say!
Conservatively Liberal
Explicit? Yes, but that’s just the way we are here. ;)
Kevin
Fear of a Black Hat was an awesome movie.
Marc
Right up there with Spinal Tap in my book. Rappers Against Violence alone was worth the price of admission.
4jkb4ia
I laughed at my Mom when I said that this was shaping up to be like 1964 and the Freedom Democrats and she said the proper analogy was 1948. Perhaps I should not have been laughing.
Delia
Hmmm. Now the No Quarters loons are claiming that Fox is talking about having the Michelle video. Though apparently Geraldo says he doesn’t believe them.
rachel
Wait… Kitty Dukakis burned the flag?
4jkb4ia
Seriously, the HRC campaign is asking the Democratic Party to sacrifice the legitimate and fair aspirations of blacks because a certain group of voters counts more.
demimondian
Delia — that’s how the story will evolve, then. It will always be somebody else who claimed to have the tape, and nobody will ever acknowledge having it. The point is thunder in the distance — “the tape” exists, but is never shown, but..everybody *knows* it’s there.
theturtlemoves
After all the talk that’s flown around on other threads about the disconcertingly large percentage of S&M adherents around this place, I’m not entirely sure I want to get “pounded”. Sounds a little too much like what they decided to call “pegged” in a Savage Love reader poll.
theturtlemoves
The hyperbole aside, though, Harold Ickes is a complete asshat. I think there are politicians that actually have integrity, which is why I’m supporting Obama. That and I’m originally a SoDak and therefore big Daschle fan. Ickes and Penn and that whole Klintstone Kops Krew don’t have a single ounce of integrity between them.
Rick Taylor
I couldn’t agree more. That’s when I knew I’d passed the point of no return with Hillary Clinton (though I’d been pretty disillusioned even before). When her campaign started explicitly arguing she should get the nomination in spite of the votes, because of her electability, because of her appeal to white working class voters. That was jaw dropping to me.
ThymeZone
Um, what motivates you to try to tell me what to post, and when?
I post what I like when I like. I express myself as I see fit. If you don’t like, you can ignore it, you can put up a counter argument, or you can go screw yourself.
It doesn’t matter much to me. Don’t bite my ankles with this kind of shit please.
As for demi, write to him and instruct him to stop hassling me with his crazy shit. Maybe he is looking for a spritual advisor, I am not.
ThymeZone
So, all the asshole lawyer types will leech off the good work of a some lawyers in order gain the respect they can’t get for themselves?
Ickes is honorable because some lawyers do good work?
Okay, we disagree. I am content to stand on the difference between as stated so far. People hate lawyers for a simple reason: They act like assholes. They piss on your leg, and tell you it’s raining, and then say it’s okay because it was for a good reason. It’s called Ends Justify Means, and it’s about half of what’s wrong with our politics and our government. We are ruled by assholes, and almost all of them are lawyers. This ain’t rocket science.
You also seem to think that strong opinions are dismissable as “your infinite wisdom.” I don’t have infinite wisdom, you fuck, I have my opinions, to which I am entitled, and which I present assertively here. That’s it.
Also, I grew up in a household headed by a judge and around a dining room table always crowded with lawyers. I don’t need any lectures from you about who or what they are, I am quite well informed.
Delia
Hell, the HRC campaign is asking the Democratic Party to sacrifice the legitimate and fair aspirations of a lot of white, brown, black, young, middle-aged, old, etc., people who all decided it was about time to get some new ideas into the game.
dr. bloor
And the line between “good thing” and “Ickes-ness?”
*crickets chirping*
limbaugh's pilonidal cyst
Ickes can go piss up a rope. What have he and his like done for the past 14 years but “lead” the Democrats to loss after loss after loss? But hey, what did they care as long as those consultant fees rolled in. And here comes Howard Dean, and what does that “loser” do but lead the Democrats to win after win after win? And they hate him so much, because he and his like are derailing their nice gravy train.
It’s over, Harold and Terry and Mark, et al, you’re headed for a long and well-deserved stay in the political wilderness (and the occasional appearance on Faux News to bash President Obama). Say hi to the republicans while you’re wandering around out there, okay?
demimondian
Yup. No disagreement there.
And, worse, he’s making a fool of himself, and ruining a well-deserved good reputation that he’d built over many years in the party.
Oh, and HRC should have folded her campaign tent four months ago.
Glocksman
In The New Dealers War, Thomas Fleming wrote that Harold L. Ickes was a prima donna who’d submit his resignation if he didn’t get his way, knowing that FDR wouldn’t accept it for political reasons.
Though he was pretty surprised when he pulled that same stunt on Harry Truman and Truman said ‘accepted’. :)
Hillary’s Harold Ickes is H.L.’s son, and it looks like the apple didn’t fall far from the tree when it comes to acting like a petulant child.
zoe from pittsburgh