She’s giving her post primary speech in New York tomorrow night.
Hillary Rodham Clinton will give her post-primary speech in New York Tuesday night, a rare departure from the campaign trail.
Staffers who have worked for her on he ground in Puerto Rico, South Dakota and Montana have been invited to attend the event or go home for further instructions, campaign aides said.
She’s also asked campaign staffers to turn in their expenses ASAP.
Clinton Campaign staffers and former campaign staffers are being urged by the Clinton campaign’s finance department to turn in their outstanding expense receipts by the end of the week. That’s a sign, to them, that the campaign wants to get its affairs in order soon.
And then there’s Bill:
“This may be the last day I’m ever involved in a campaign of this kind,” he said.
Discuss.
El Cid
Good luck to them both. When the rancor dies down, I’ll still admire them, just, not for any more party leadership.
cleek
frankly, she doesn’t need all those people – there aren’t any more state primaries to organize. it won’t take a huge staff spread out all across the country just to badger the supers.
TCG
As a
NomineeCampaign in Exhile, she does not need the same staffing levels. She can afford to cut back, now that she and Bill are paying the bills.Alan Black
I’ll believe it when I see it. Actually scrap that – I won’t believe it until Obama’s served at least one term, and even then I’ll have my doubts.
The Moar You Know
Let us pray that this is true. For that matter, I hope it’s the last day that I’m ever involved in a campaign of this kind.
EdTheRed
No. She’ll concede on the third of Never.
DonnaInMichigan
“This may be the last day that I’m ever involved in a campaign of this kind.”
1) He is stating he will refuse to even campaign for Obama.
2) Obama has given him notice NOT to campaign at all on his behalf. He is not wanted or welcomed.
Take your pick.
Oh well………sour grapes makes a fine WHINE.
Neal
Agreed. I won’t believe it’s over because I don’t want to get my hopes up.
The primaries are over as of tomorrow, so no more staff – she bitches and lies well enough on her own. She doesn’t need help at this point.
Evinfuilt
Its nearly over, I’m picking up some Champagne (okay, sparkling wine) tonight, popping it tomorrow with her announcement.
I think we need to discuss what fine Bubbly to go with.
Leo
Getting ready to suspend. I think there’s no way she formally concedes.
The real question is how she positions herself vis a vis McCain over the next few months. If she kept her poisonous demographic analysis off-stage (she can still use it to convince delegates, if she is able), and really took advantage of her profile to take slashing attacks against McCain, I would give her some credit. There was a week there, between West Virginia and Oregon/Kentuncky, where I thought she was going to do just that, and I really warmed up to her. (Then she squandered any good will she had with me with the Zimbabwe stuff.)
KXB
Does it really matter what Bill says? Isn’t he the guy who didn’t know what “is” is? If HRC wants to drag it out, she will. I’m afraid it will be a long summer. She does not want video footage of her conceding.
Tlaloc
“1) He is stating he will refuse to even campaign for Obama.
2) Obama has given him notice NOT to campaign at all on his behalf. He is not wanted or welcomed.”
2 is pretty unlikely. Obama is dumb enough to refuse having a charismatic two term ex president stump for him after a divisive primary. That’d be all kinds of stupid.
1 is a possibility.
Tlaloc
Doh. Should be “Obama is *not* dumb enough…”
BFR
There’s always this possibility too (from The American Conservative – I’m a big fan of that site after Tim pointed them out.)
I’d be completely dismissive of it but thinking creatively, it would be the most plausible path for each to get to the WH – McCain by getting some of Clinton’s vote and Clinton positioning for a GOP run after 1 term of McCain.
jibeaux
I have a standard pitch for sparkling wine (I like cava) mixed with Belgian fruit lambic. Don’t bother mocking me again, I’ll just assume it.
It is good, though.
4tehlulz
HRC probably wishes that you weren’t involved in this one, Bill.
Tlaloc
“Clinton positioning for a GOP run after 1 term of McCain.”
Bu-wha?
Are you kidding me? Are you aware of the reaction of the GOP base to the name “clinton”?
It’s much more likely that Obama could get the GOP nomination than Clinton (and no Obama has no chance of that happening, but there’s impossible and then there’s _impossible_)
Krista
Would it, though? Bill’s had a serious case of foot-in-mouth disease throughout this entire campaign, and is widely attributed as one of the many reasons why Hillary’s campaign has been so awful. Plus there is the idea of Hillary making a run in ’12 if McCain gets in this year. Would Bill Clinton deliberately sabotage Obama’s campaign so as to give Hillary another try in 4 years?
Were I Obama, I’d accept the idea of Bill stumping for me, but I’d be keeping my own people very close by to make sure that Bill stays on message and doesn’t fuck the campaign, either inadvertently or deliberately.
Bubblegum Tate
As long as the end result is Hillary shutting her piehole and going away, I’m fine with whatever she wants to call it.
jake
She’s going to tell them to shave their heads, don their track suits and await further instructions.
Evinfuilt
Sounds interesting enough to try at least once.
Punchy
Thought the same thing. This isn’t a sign she’s quitting; no, she’s moving into the Extortion Phase of the campaign. Only need a few strong-armers and a shitload of cash, not a network of costly assistants.
jibeaux
Then get the peach if you can find it. It tastes like a Bellini, which is to say like heaven.
BFR
Yeah, I said it was unlikely – and that’s a gross understatement as I don’t honestly think Clinton would be interested.
Still though, doesn’t it kind of seem partly plausible? McCain’s not loved enough by the base that hates Clinton anyways, so maybe he could dump them in order to pickup some of Clinton’s support.
If you’re McCain, and you’ve concluded that the math isn’t there (not sure he has of course) then wouldn’t this look weirdly plausbile?
Tlaloc
“Would it, though?”
Yes, it would. From the instant Hillary conceeds or suspends Obama’s entire life will revolve around convincing her backers to go for him. It has to. Having Hillary’s husband stump for him would be an excellent way to get the point across.
cbear
Win.
D.N. Nation
I know the clowns over at TMarsh and Hillis44 have fallen in love with Hannity, Rush, etc., but Hillary falling under the GOP mantle is a storyline that would make Vince McMahon proud. Hmm…would she crowbar Obama, then spraypaint MCCAIN on his unconscious back?
Anyway, with the Clinton crew’s actions in recent months, I’ll believe it when I see it. Though I can see her suspending her campaign, I can also seeing her leaving it completely at that- no endorsement, no unity. Just saying how great of a fight she put up, how she thinks her supporters are great, and how she’ll see ya in 2012. Throw in some various elitist dog-whistles, and voila. She’ll go out “on top,” and her ridiculous net supporters can continue the onslaught. Everyone’s a winnar.
If she actually ups and endorses Obama (and maybe even somewhat subtly telling her supporters to knock off the wingnuttery), I’ll eat my hat.
TheFountainHead
Like an often beaten wife, I’m going to be expecting the worst despite the signs of light at the end of the tunnel.
Oh shit. Did you see what I did there?
Goddamn myself.
jibeaux
Either that or a few open-minded Republicans and independents. I wouldn’t have said this at the beginning of the race, but I’d definitely focus on the Obamacans myself.
If Hillary throws herself into working for him, then any remaining reasonable Hillary supporters will vote for him. If she doesn’t, nothing he says will change their minds. She’s definitely the bigger factor there than he is.
And a substantial portion of them are probably going to stay home and wash their cats or vote for McCain just like they said they would rather than vote for an “unqualified black man” etc, and nothing anybody can say is going to convince them. And, really, why would you want to?
Zifnab
MISOGYNIST!
Dumb Shit Answers to Simple Questions, Vol Eleventy-One.
Grover Cleveland
Vilsack came out today and said it was over for her, that Obama will be the nominee etc.
Tlaloc
“I can also seeing her leaving it completely at that- no endorsement, no unity.”
So here’s a question, then:
Let’s presume for a moment that you’re a democrat running for the presidential nomination. It becomes clear that you aren’t going to win. At the same time you honestly believe the person who is going to win is unqualified for the position. Are you obligated to endorse them anyway?
I’m not saying that’s Hillary’s position on Obama. I wouldn’t know. But as a hypothetical, because it seems like you are suggesting that anyone who typically votes “D” simply has to back anyone the Democrat party puts up, regardless of any concerns or issues.
That seems pretty crazy to me personally.
Doug H. (Fausto no more)
McAulliffe appeared this morning on Morning Joe totally smashed and holding up a bottle of rum. Rumor has Obama helping to seek money to help fill in the Clintons’ campaign debts. Rumor also has it that Obama and Clinton are set to appear in New York on Wednesday morning.
I think the past few days have revealed to the Clinton campaign just how many checks they’ve made that their ass can’t cash. Again, it goes against what Maddow has said, but I think Hillary’s finally folding the tent and taking what she can from the Obama campaign while she can get a good deal.
David Hunt
Win. That just expresses my feelings on this whole campaign so well. I’m getting ready to go over to Kung Fu Monkey and see if I can get John Rogers to release the robot bees, early.
Athenawise
I’m assuming it won’t be a “you love me, you really love me” moment for Hillary.
This whole two-year campaign season has been a long, cringeworthy embarrassment. There’s enough blame to go around, from the party leadership to two seriously flawed Democratic candidates (and spouses) conducting two seriously flawed campaigns. Clinton’s hubris is her sense of entitlement at the expense of the election; Obama’s hubris is his succumbing to the blandishments of those who urged him to run before his time.
My predictions:
1. President McCain
OR
2. President Obama who serves one inept term and who is ousted by a revitalized, scorched-earth Rethug party. A decade of Reaganesque hegemony ensues.
libarbarian
Exactly.
She is merely wrapping up a phase. No more primaries or caucuses so why maintain a large expensive organization that lacks any purpose after Tuesday?
Hillary is going to the convention. Do not be surprised if, on the first day, her Michigan delegates put forward a motion objecting to the seating of the Obama delegates.
Mary
Sorry, Michael.
Tlaloc
“Either that or a few open-minded Republicans and independents. I wouldn’t have said this at the beginning of the race, but I’d definitely focus on the Obamacans myself.”
Doesn’t matter the answer to both is the same- Obama’s going to shift a bit towards the middle. Most of Hillary’s support is centrist dems.
libarbarian
Those saying that Hillary has pissed off too many people are speaking prematurely.
If Obama loses to McCain, most of the party will see her as a Cassandra who was ignored and punished for speaking unpleasant truths.
Its about more than 2012 though it is about that. The DNC leadership are seen as backing Obama. If he gets whipped they will lose credibility and there will be turnovers with most replacements being Clinton backers.
asl
Not actually a departure. She’ll not win either state tomorrow, so no need to speak at either. Not only will she not quit, she’ll declare victory via popular vote.
Wayne
“This may be the last day that I’m ever involved in a campaign of this kind.”
Depends on the meaning of “kind”.
uh_clem
Maybe this is naieve, but I’m taking things at face value here:
The Dem party leadership is asking the super delegates to declare their intentions ASAP after the last two primaries are over tomorrow. I think they will, and expect that Obama will have the required number by Wednesday or Thursday. At that point, Hillary calls it quits and throws her support to Obama, because there’s really no other viable option for her.
I’m just not buying the theories that have her intentionally throwing the election to McCain, or having Obama offed, or staging a massive stink at the convention.
Agree that she’s a power-hungry politician, but to me that just implies she’ll do what’s necessary to maximize her influence – which at this point is to fall into line and work for the nominee.
We’ll know in a few days whether I’m off base here.
David Hunt
That depends how far removed from reality she’s living. I’d think that a realistic assessment would have to include a comparison between Obama and McCain. From a Democrat’s prespective (and mine, and oh…sane people’s) Obama has just got to look better than McCain. So yes, I’d feel obligated to endorse Obama even if I thought he was lacking something because he’s still got more smarts, character, charisma and self-control than John McCain.
jibeaux
Nope. This is, I think, a fundamental mistake the Clintons make — triangulate, tack to the center, always, always to the center, this is where they think the votes are. Gas tax holiday! Yep, people are idiots, they’ll go for that!
Instead of the eternal, failed, old thinking, let’s try a new thing now. Someone who, instead of compromising on progressive principles, sells those principles on their merits. Explains why they’re good. It won’t take a lot of explaining, the polls are almost entirely in the Democrats’ favor. Combine with a self-possessed, confident, even personality, charisma, and a dramatically inferior opponent, and serve well chilled with champagne in November.
jibeaux
Remember when Reagan tacked to the center in order to get all those Reagan Democrats? Nope, me neither.
4tehlulz
Depends. Do you want to be perceived as kneecapping them?
If yes, then don’t endorse.
If no, then endorse.
rob!
dear god, i’m not a prayin’ man, but…
Soylent Green
These are Hillary’s actual instructions to her campaign staff.
Tlaloc
“From a Democrat’s prespective (and mine, and oh…sane people’s) Obama has just got to look better than McCain.”
That’s just not true. You are thinking about the matter from your own perspective and generalizing that to everyone. For a great many people in the middle McCain is a “maverick” republican. He isn’t like the big bad republicans. He’s a decent guy who has stood up to the GOP on issues.
Now you and I may know that that perception is 95% crap, but it is still a very strong impression. For ccentrist dems McCain can be a very attractive option, especially if he manages to thread the needle as far as appealing to the middle while reassuring the hard right.
Don;t fool yourself into thinking everyon has the same opinion of McCain (or Obama for that matter) that you do. You’ll end up severely disappointed.
crw
If Obama loses to McCain, most of the party will see her as a Cassandra who was ignored and punished for speaking unpleasant truths.
Bullshit. If she does anything but enthusiastically support Obama, a large block of the Democratic party is going to give her the Lieberman treatment. You can damn well bet she’ll lose the AA vote forever. Granted, her HillHags will lap up the Cassandra talk.
JGabriel
Leo:
Of course she’ll suspend. Clinton still has campaign debts, and if she definitively concludes her campaign, she can’t continue collecting donations to pay them.
So don’t read too much into a ‘suspension’. That’s probably as close as she can come to conceding, under her current financial conditions.
In other words, I wouldn’t go ballistic unless she actually announces an intention to take her campaign to the credentialing committee or the convention.
Short of that, ‘suspension’ probably means ‘concession’.
.
4tehlulz
Fixed
jibeaux
Concerned god of rain is concerned.
Stevenovitch
Am I missing something? She needs those people if she’s planning on competing in any kind of general election doesn’t she?
southpaw
Clinton is not looking to concede; she’s looking to defang this week’s (expected) heavy pressure from party leadership to drop out. She’ll opportunistically jump back in on a more favorable news cycle as the convention approaches.
Doug H. (Fausto no more)
Only if she’s backing Obama all the way. If not, the long knives won’t be coming out just for the Obama campaign.
BombIranForChrist
Hillary is lulling us all into a false sense of security and then BAM!!!
She launches her Zeppelins. They take out New York with steam-powered nuclear warheads and declare Hillary the Emperor of the Earth and the Moon.
joe
You know what I want?
A big, thunderous speech from Barack Obama, denouncing the sexist rhetoric of that’s been hurled at Hillary during this campaign.
Not only would it be brilliant political maneuvering, but it has the virtue of being true.
Napoleon
Dear Lord, this appears to actually be true.
joe
These comments remind me of Kasigi Yabu’s death scene in Shogun.
Nobody wants to turn their back on the old man until his head if off his shoulders, eh?
David Hunt
Okay: informed sane people. :)
More reasonably, I’ll admit that I went off on a rant and didn’t really let my brain get in the way of my feelings. The sad fact is that I don’t really have any moral authority to be criticizing others on making election choices based on something other than a well grounded knowledge of all the issues. Ever since ’92 I’ve been using my best guess as to the type of Supreme Court nominations a canidate would put forth as my big criterion in voting for President. So even though I’m disgusted by some things that have come out of the Clinton camp, I’d vote for her if she got the Dem nod, because I’m not sure that Liberty can survive another Roberts/Alito.
dnA
Suddenly, John is once again able to rationally discuss the Clinton campaign.
jake
Feexed.
jibeaux
You know what’s weird? A lot of it is true. But holy cow, am I so astonishingly tired of hearing about it. And her supporters will see it as transparent. And, it would sound something of a false note in the generally positive tone of his campaign.
I think a better approach is going to be just to try to relate to women.
Rick Taylor
Bullshit Answer:
Yup. Hillary will concede as gracefully as she can sometime this week (by Friday at the latest). She’ll give a strong endorsement of Obama, and everyone who said she’s taking this to the convention will have egg on their face. There will be mush gnashing of teeth and rending of garments over at Taylor Marsh.
Honest Answer:
How the hell do I know? If there’s one thing the last couple months have taught me, it’s I’ll never be able to predict what Clinton does next. Nonetheless, If my prediction above turns out to be correct, I’ll be sure to preen and tell everyone “I told you so.” Otherwise, I’ll pretend these and similar predictions were made by someone else using my name.
phoebes in santa fe
Video of Hillary talking to her campaign about “the end”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6Lstkiexhc
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Since Bill Clinton campaigned for John Kerry in 2004, I’m taking his words to mean that he considers campaigning for himself or Hillary as one category and all other campaigning is in a different category.
I think we’ll see Big Dog back on the trail for Obama this fall.
BFR
I think there’s also a 3rd option – that she effectively conceded weeks if not months ago and that she’s been conspiring with Obama to keep it under wraps in order to test-drive the GOP messaging on Obama while avoiding the appearances of embarrasing losses for Obama in states where he’d lose to Donald Duck by double-digit margins.
I really like this option and want it to be true, but I don’t think there’s any way they could have pulled off something this clever.
Tlaloc
“Okay: informed sane people.”
If only informed people voted this world would be remarkably different.
“Ever since ‘92 I’ve been using my best guess as to the type of Supreme Court nominations a canidate would put forth as my big criterion in voting for President. So even though I’m disgusted by some things that have come out of the Clinton camp, I’d vote for her if she got the Dem nod, because I’m not sure that Liberty can survive another Roberts/Alito.”
Keep in mind that the dems will have a majority in both houses. Barring something catastrophic those majorities will be at least as large as they are now and likely larger. That take a lot of the bite out of the proposition that McCain could do much harm with SCOTUS nominees.
jibeaux
That’s Michael.
John is able to rationally discuss (Bo) Diddley.
libarbarian
Well, did you also, like Many Dems back in Feb & March, think she would have conceded by now?
I could be wrong but I think she is feeling out the options for going to the convention and causing a stink. I think that is the plan.
Technically, she wont be the one causing a stink. Rather it will be “enthusiastic supporters” that she will have “no choice” but to support. Expect her Michigan delegates to almost immediately file a motion objecting to the seating of Obamas Michigan delegates.
An Obama defeat in the GE is the Holy Grail for the Clintons now. If she is “proved right” by such an event, her stock in the party will rocket upwards. All her talkingpoints will appear validated and 90% of the party will forget that she helped make it happen.
A stink at the convention is the best way to do that. Its not just about 2012 – its about reclaiming their roles as the major powerbrokers in the party. Think of the news coverage such a fight will bring it. Think of the emotions that will be on display and the resentments that will be formed so close to the GE.
Hillary cannot abide an Obama win in the GE. It will absolutely discredit her. She has committed herself to the “Obama cannot win” line. If he wins she looks worse than just a loser – she looks dumb.
jibeaux
1. If McCain wins, that doesn’t signal good things for down ticket races. The scenario where he wins is not, I don’t think, the scenario where we pick up 30+ seats.
2. The balance changes every 2 years. Even if we win decently, 2010 could be another story, as could 2012 and 2014 should he manage to stay alive and be re-elected.
It’s a mighty big gamble to make your point that “Hillary was better, dammit.”
libarbarian
Important Point:
“Conceding” soon is NOT incompatible with going to the convention.
Its simple. Pretend to concede while instructing loyalists to raise a stink up to and at the convention and then pretend that you have no choice but to give in the the demands of “the people” and “re-enter” the contest.
LarryB
Your’re kidding me, right? First woman candidate as-close-to-nothing ties for the nomination and that’s an embarrassment? Yes, she lost. Yes, she lost when she should have run away with it. Yes, some of her positions and statements plain pissed me off. Embarrassed? On the contrary, I’m damn proud of her. The next woman who wants to be Prez will have a lot to thank Hillary Clinton for.
Punchy
Concede?
Nope.
Damn this roller coaster.
crw
It occurs to me if Big Dawg needs assuaging, Obama could put him in charge of Middle East peace negotiations. By all accounts, the man is obsessed with his legacy, and he has to be pissed that GWB took a big steaming dump over all the delicate work he did during his second term.
Tlaloc
“1. If McCain wins, that doesn’t signal good things for down ticket races. The scenario where he wins is not, I don’t think, the scenario where we pick up 30+ seats.”
Granted if McCain wins the dems are unlikely to pick up 30 seats. But they also aren’t likely to lose more than 1 or 2 at the worst. There just aren’t that many areas where the GOP has a shot. The senate is predominantly GOP seats coming up. In the house anything that’s R+3 or less is looking to be competitive for Dems. Hence why I said the dems are essentially assured of maintaining, if not expanding, congressional majorities.
“2. The balance changes every 2 years. Even if we win decently, 2010 could be another story, as could 2012 and 2014 should he manage to stay alive and be re-elected.”
That’s a good point.
ThymeZone
Probably already mentioned, but CCN sez that the Clintoon Campaign has no schedule published for after-Tuesday.
Is she getting ready to concede?
If there is a Jesus, if there is truth and justice, if there is a reason to go on living …. yes. In the name of everything decent, yes, yes, yes.
ThymeZone
Sorry, CCN is many things including Critical Care Nurse, but not a news network.
I meant CNN.
LarryB
Everyone is talking like the only thing happening at the convention is the nomination. Look for HRC to take her huge bloc of delegates to Denver and start horse-trading for platform planks and other concessions. In that light, conceding now would be stupid.
Just Some Fuckhead
LMAO.
Dude, yer killing me.
qwerty42
At one of the other sites (maybe Sullivan quoting Fallows?) was a mention that she genuinely does not believe Obama can win; that the Republican attack on him will be relentless, brutal, and (ultimately) successful. I do not agree, but if that is what she thinks, then that might be a better explanation for all of this.
ThymeZone
There’s only one light that counts at this juncture: Money.
Her campaign is broke. She can’t continue to put up a front. By two days from now, Obama will have the delegates lined up to make him the prsumptive nominee, as McCain is in the GOP. At that point, her choices are pretty limited.
She can do what she wants, but all of it will be viewed in one and only one light after Wednesday: Unity. Either she is building it, or she is tearing it down.
As much as I don’t like her, I think it’s pretty likely that she will be building unity by the end of this week. That’s her new role, and she will probably do really well at it.
Rome Again
Wouldn’t it be loverly?
/Eliza Doolittle
Patrick
kos has a diary that says MSNBC claimed Obama had 36 SDs announcing tomorrow.
Right now he needs 41.5. If he gets 17 from SD/MT, he will need 24.5. 36 SDs put him over by more than 10.
If he gets 38 more SDs than she does tomorrow, and wins 17-14 in PDs, he goes ahead of her by 200 delegates, a convincing number.
Wash Post has an article that most of uncommitted Senators will endorse Obama later this week. They are giving Clinton time to exit gracefully.
Expect some real fireworks in Minneapolis tomorrow evening. Maybe a Gore endorsement???
Clinton will bow out. Wednesday, maybe Thursday, Friday at the latest. What’s she going to fight for at the convention? 4 PDs “stolen” from her in MI?.
For all of those of you who think she can carry on, she can only do so if her supers support her. And Cardoza told us on Friday, there are 40 Clinton supers ready to jump ship.
JGabriel
CRW:
Oh, yeah. I can just see that tableau:
Obama: Hillary, if you drop out, I’ll put Bill in charge of Middle East peace negotiations.
Bill: Really?
Hillary: (looks appraisingly at Bill) You’ll send him to the Middle East?
Obama: Yep.
Hillary: Good enough for me. I’m outta here. (Exits, slamming door on way out.)
(Pause)
Obama: (looks at Bill)
Bill: Can you send to Jordan first? I really wanna hook up with Queen Noor, dude. She’s hot.
.
Rome Again
The best news I’ve heard in the last 4 months.
Thank God it’s almost over!
John Cole
The moment we all stop pretending that Hillary lost because of sexism, the better off all women will be.
Hillary lost because she ran an arrogant, out-of-touch, top-down campaign, and failed to adequately plan for the duration of the race. Then, when faced with unexpected losses (only because they failed to plan and underestimated the opposition), she ran a scorched earth campaign and ran as a Republican lite for the rest of the primaries. Mind you, if she had run like that in the first part of the campaign, she would have been blown out in all the states she did win. You think Californians and New Yorkers would have swallowed that “white people won’t vote for him” bullshit she pulled the past few months?
If Hillary Clinton were elected and governed the way she ran this campaign, her governance of the Iraq War would look no different from George Bush.
While there was sexism (even from some of you jackasses here in the comments), and it was deplorable, it is not why she lost. It would be nice if we stop pretending that it was. If anything, the claims of sexism are the only thing that kept her afloat the past few moths, as older women, her key constituency, never left her, but many other groups did.
Thelonius
Tlaloc:
22 Dems crossed to give Roberts a 78-22 confirmation. And that was after being nominated by George W. Bush! Do you really want to depend on John “Maverick” McCain not being able to armtwist or charm 8-10 Democratic Senators with a similar candidate?
The Other Steve
It would certainly be for the best if she conceded defeat now.
I hope she works hard to pull her supporters back from the edge of the cliff.
John Cole
One other thing- over the next few weeks you will hear Clinton dead-enders talk about a “unity ticket” with increased fervor. Not going to happen, and there is one person you can thank for that- Hillary.
Hillary came into this race with Alfonsian negatives (named after Alfons D’Amato), and her scorched earth campaign the past few months to drive up Obama’s negatives was so successful that now no matter who you talk to, they are almost guaranteed to dislike either Hillary or Obama.
The only people who want a “unity” ticket work for the RNC or the McCain campaign.
sunny
They are not making any noises whatsoever about “conceding” and enthusiastically endorsing. They will suspend. Look again at Marys post above, from the Politico:
Anything less than concession means she’s “reserving the right” to go to the convention, biding her time, raising funs, strong-arming supers, waiting, waiting…for “something” to happen.
It will not.be.over.Tuesday.
Rome Again
Thank you for that John. As a woman, I completely concur. I have been absolutely embarrassed at how women have been portrayed in this campaign, both by the whimpering “victim” and the abhorrent behavior of her supporters.
Just Some Fuckhead
Yer on notice motherfuckers!
John Cole
If McCain wins, you can kiss Roe v. Wade goodbye.
While this will undoubtedly be bad for abortion rights at first, it might have two positive outcomes:
1.) It will take the wind out of the religious right movement. Part of their anger has been that no matter how hard they work to elect people, they can not enact abortion bans through the electoral process. This is maddening for them, and really is what fills their coffers and increases their membership.
2.) If pushed to the states, it make spark long-term grass-roots efforts to elect more progressive candidate who will legislate pro-choice, as they can no longer rely on the SCOTUS to protect reproductive rights.
Still not something I thing most people would like to chance.
PaulB
The Obama camp has denied this, just as they have denied every rumor about super-delegates in their back pocket. And just like those other rumors have been unfounded, I suspect this one ultimately will be, as well.
Just Some Fuckhead
Sexist pig, why didn’t you call for Jesse Jackson to drop out in ’88?? And don’t give me any crap about only being 12 in 1988. You still coulda said something or scribbled it under your desk top or something.
The Other Steve
All the other candidates “suspended” their campaigns as well. Edwards, Biden, whatever.
It’s pretty typical. They don’t official “concede” until the convention.
ThymeZone
What a sexist thing to say.
Kidding. I swear. Just kidding. Actually, you are quite right.
PaulB
Yup. She can’t afford them, though.
ThymeZone
To celebrate the great Obama victory that is almost upon us, CNN is (right now as I type) featuring a full rehash of the the Wright controversy and the church controversy.
Because, you know, that’s what’s really important.
PLEASE FUCK ME WITH A SHARP STICK IN MY FORHEAD.
arrgghh
Punchy
Taylor Marsh just gave you two middle fingers, called you the f-word, and is quickly building voodoo representations of you, your cat, and Ben Worthlessberger.
DougJ
I can’t take it anymore. I spent all of last evening spoofing Hillary supporters here and halfway through someone came in (RC?) who was saying even crazier things in all seriousness. There was no way for the spoof to break through.
It was very frustrating, people!
Grand Moff Texan
While there was sexism (even from some of you jackasses here in the comments)
Fuck you (in a strictly non-gendered, you know, kinda way).
.
Grand Moff Texan
Uh, if they’re all mounted on the same shaft, that’s a very complicated form of vibrator.
Just sayin’
.
Just Some Fuckhead
Oh please John. You know McCain was outed as a secret pro-choicer BY CONSERVATIVES in the 2000 Republican primary. Don’t you remember when he was asked what he’d do if his teenaged daughter got pregnant and he said they’d talk about it around the family table and decide what to do instead of the correct answer of chaining her in the basement and forcing her to carry and give birth???
Hell, you were prolly one of the conservatives that outed him.. hehe.
The Other Steve
What’s interesting is the religious right are using South Dakota as a test case. They’re trying to get an anti-abortion bill passed so they can go to the Supreme Court with it to overturn Roe v Wade. But the citizens in 2006 upset their apple cart by defeating the ballot measure.
They’re trying again this year. The language is slightly different. The bill in 2006 banned abortion in all cases, this time around it allows it for rape and incest. I think it has a poor chance of passing, because being used is not something that goes over well in the heartland.
The Other Steve
BTW, the campaign McCain is running this year claiming Obama is dangerous and naive and shit.
Well, it sounds an awful lot like the campaign Carter ran against Reagan in 1980.
DougJ
If McCain wins, you can kiss Roe v. Wade goodbye.
I doubt that. Check this out:
Bear in mind, this was all written before the 2006 elections when it became clear that the country hated Republicans anyway, even without Roe being overturned.
I just don’t think the Republicans are dumb enough to commit this complete a form of political suicide.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
While this might make some sense purely in terms on the nomination contest, it makes no sense in terms of preparation for the general election in November. If Hillary and her staff truly believe she will eventually garner the nomination, they need to be working their asses off every week between now and then laying the ground work for a victory over McCain by continuing to build field organizations and GOTV infrastructure. This would be no time to slack off (and Bill Clinton’s run in 1992 was not at all like that).
IMHO if the campaign is going into suspension, it is because they no longer feel they can get the nomination, short of something so catastrophic (God forbid) that Obama’s entire organization would pass over into Hillary’s hands intact.
sunny
Yes, but none of those candidates were vowing to try and turn supers.
dr. luba
Errr, speaking as a woman and an OB/GYN, that’s on the level with those Naderites who thought that getting Bush elected would cause everyone to embrace the Green Party and bring magical ponies for all.
I’m not old enough to have practiced during the pre-Roe era, but know many docs who did. I’ve heard enough stories about young women dying of sepsis and hemorrhage from botched abortions to NOT think this could ever, ever be a good thing. That generation was strongly pro-choice, and few of them had qualms about performing legal abortions after Roe.
The current generation hasn’t seen enough of these grisly outcomes and has become complacent. Becasue you can outlaw abortion but you can’t actually ban it–iabortion will only become unseen, unsafe and frequently deadly.
(BTW, it should be noted that misogynistic anti-abortion OBs like Ron Paul are, thankfully, the exception in our profession.)
The Other Steve
They may not have a choice. The South Dakota deal is all about forcing the issue on the national Republicans. That’s why they’re trying it again this year.
crw
Are you fucking serious? This is the party that is still campaigning on “strict constructionist judges (wink nudge)” and still thinks they can win by campaigning against San Fransisco values. They have learned nothing. Unlike the Dems, who realized most people lean pro choice, but find the reality of abortions distasteful, and thus pivoted to “safe, legal, rare.”
Rick Taylor
From BTD and a few others, sure (and no more loudly than he’s always been). But most of the ones I’ve seen have gone between, a unity ticket’s acceptable with Hillary at the top to, no way, she should get to pick her own vice president. I think some of them would turn on Clinton if she accepted a vp slot
ThymeZone
Of course they are not, and they dont need to be. They have leveraged the anti-Roe votes all these years without delivering any actual anti-Roe changes in the law.
The elegant use of the dog whistle makes it unnecessary to actually keep promises. Appeal to sentiment. And the GOP knows that their vote leverage depends on Roe being in place and the GOP pretending to be against it.
KRK
Actually, no. Biden, Dodd, Kucinich, and Richardson all “withdrew” from the race. Gravel changed parties. Only Edwards “suspended.”
Tlaloc
“To celebrate the great Obama victory that is almost upon us, CNN is (right now as I type) featuring a full rehash of the the Wright controversy and the church controversy.
Because, you know, that’s what’s really important.
PLEASE FUCK ME WITH A SHARP STICK IN MY FORHEAD.”
Duh, welcome to the next five months. You didn’t seriously think the republicans were going to be nice to Obama, right?
I feel kind of sorry for the people who thought Hillary was mean. They’re in for a serious education.
kind of an off white
I’ve been thinking this for weeks. You wouldn’t want him doing the full-on “holy shit that guy can give a speech” treatment like with race, since it’d be like trying to take her issue away, but he’s had the math sewn up for a long time–he could’ve taken some shots at the Matthewses of the news world.
His campaign’s got a well-oiled Kill ‘Em With Kindness division; this seems like an oversight.
ThymeZone
Update, as I type, Jack Cafferty billboards Obama in all his Reverent Wrightness. Well prepared graphics, copy shaped to the graphics. Great presentation, great pull.
This is blather at its most polished.
This is the Big Question today on the Cafferty File.
Me? I’m going to spam their fucking bullshit circus sideshow right now.
ThymeZone
My beef with her is that she is mean to anyone who opposes her. Even if it hurts her own party.
I expect politics to be mean, I started with cavassing and voter registration drives and putting in yard signs when I was about 7 years old. I know the drill. The model of mean when I was growing up in politics was Richard Nixon. Nothing shocks me.
Catfish N. Cod
“I’m assuming it won’t be a “you love me, you really love me” moment for Hillary.”
Why would you assume that? After all, she did win the popular vote (if you use the same calculator Karl Rove used in coming up with “The Math” for the 2006 midterms).
So let’s talk real math. Most sources agree that the MUP needs ~42 votes to win at this point (he got six supers today). He’ll get 18-20 pledged tomorrow from SD and MT, so he needs 22-24 supers to win.
I don’t know about the MSNBC 36 supers, but CNN is reliably reporting that after a meeting on Capitol Hill today, a majority of the uncommitted senators agreed to endorse Obama later this week — after giving Clinton “a grace period” (that’s a hint, Hillary). That’s between 9 and 14 votes (I say votes because Michigan and Florida senators count half). The MUP is now 8-15 supers away.
Speaker Pelosi, President Carter, and three others have committed to endorsing the winner of the pledged delegates. That’s five more. 3-12 supers needed.
That means the MUP will trot across the finish line this week even if he DOESN’T have any more magically banked supers just waiting to jump tomorrow night.
But wait — what about Clinton Rules? Well, Ickes & Co. were whining about four “stolen” delegates; but those “stolen” delegates only count half, so two extra supers cancel the “thievery” out. Indeed, another 23 extra supers from whatever source also wipe out the argument that Obama’s 55 de-uncommitted delegates from Michigan don’t count.
Since Clinton’s supporters unanimously agreed to the Florida compromise before the eyes of the whole world on Saturday, they can’t back out of that compromise now without utterly destroying themselves. Once Obama has 25 extra supers, Clinton can rant and rave and challenge credentials all she wants and it will make no difference to the convention’s outcome. Obama will have 2118 delegates under all conceivable scenarios. Any attempts to change the outcome of the election after that will be seen as a pitiful joke and will only result in more supers defecting from Clinton’s camp.
Even Hillary isn’t crazy enough to keep campaigning if it causes her to lose support. And that will be that.
crw
I don’t know. I have a feeling any meanness out of the Republicans this year is more out of reflexive hatred of anyone with a D after their name than anything. Mr Magoo is an epically horrible candidate and I just don’t see people getting that fired up for him. Even Rupert fucking Murdoch admits it. So far, they’re just recycling tropes from past elections.
Rome Again
Somehow I don’t think thats going to turn out the way they had planned.
sunny
Catfish N. Cod~
Clinton and some of her surrogates keep pointing out that comitted supers haven’t voted yet-they do that at the convention. She’s got five months to convince them to vote for her at the convention.
Just Some Fuckhead
It’s actually possible to hold the opinions that Hillary Clinton is “mean” AND the Republicans are amoral sons of bitches at the very same time. Imagine that.
Just Some Fuckhead
Do you think they could have meant “take them to court” instead of “courting”?
KRK
I’m sorry, but this just seems crazy to me.
Because of the Rev. Wright kerfuffle in March, Obama stepped up and gave a powerful, thoughtful speech about race. At the time I saw a lot of self-identified feminist websites complaining that he gave an “oppression” speech and never mentioned sexism/misogyny. There’s no way those people would be satisfied with a gender speech at this point. It would be all too-little-too-late, etc.
As for the bigger picture, Obama spoke out about race because it was a “new” issue presented by his campaign and he wanted to try to elevate the conversation. Clinton never addressed racial bias on her own, not even in response to Obama’s speech, instead she benefited from/encouraged (YMMV) racial divisions as part of her campaign. As recently as last week she flat out said that she didn’t think racism was at all an issue in the race.
Conversely, gender has been a “new” issue presented by Clinton’s campaign, but rather than tackling it head-on with a powerful, thoughtful speech, she and her surrogates have complained about “the girl” being picked on. That fuels her supporters, but doesn’t elevate the conversation.
Clinton chose not to take the risk that Obama did and speak directly and thoughtfully about the biases that are an inevitable part of a “first ever” candidacy. So now that becomes Obama’s responsibility? He might well do it, and I’m sure it would be excellent if he did. But it’s hardly an oversight.
Just Some Fuckhead
Thanks for the heads up, TZ. I was nodding off watching David Gregory. He just isn’t cutting it for me. And forty minutes of Tool Blitzer for ten minutes of Cafferty is a cruelly high price to pay. Price gouging, practically.
The six o’clock hour cries out for Rachel Maddow.
ThymeZone
Please ponder and savor that expulsion of diarrhea from the mouth of Wolf Blitzer, who apparently studied at the Dr. Pangloss School of Journalism.
Tlaloc
CRW:
“I don’t know. I have a feeling any meanness out of the Republicans this year is more out of reflexive hatred of anyone with a D after their name than anything.”
I don’t disagree. The problem is Obama is what they call “a target rich environment” for that reflexive hatred.
Justsomefuckhead:
“It’s actually possible to hold the opinions that Hillary Clinton is “mean” AND the Republicans are amoral sons of bitches at the very same time. Imagine that.”
I’m sure it is. But the people who got severely panty twisted by what was a not at all vicious primary (Divisive? Yes. Vicious? Hardly.) are going to need some serious blood pressure meds when they see the hatchet job the GOP (through 527s) do to Obama.
That’s all I’m saying.
mrmobi
I know how much you hate her voice, TZ.
I actually like Hillary, but during this campaign, she and her husband have done some serious damage to their standing in the party, I think.
I’ve been a fan of the Clintons, voted for Bill twice, and admired Hillary for being accomplished. She may have failed in her efforts to get national health insurance, but she tried, no one has since. All told we were lucky to have both of them.
I’d have no qualms voting for a united ticket with her as VP. Far from being unthinkable, I believe this would virtually guarantee a Democratic win, and probably bring with it a lot of down-ticket success, too.
I have no illusions about Obama. He’s a politician, a masterful one, but very much a politician. He will disappoint, as all politicians do. I personally thought that the Wright fiasco was going to sink his bid. But this guy’s got game, and he’s tough. So I “hope” he’s going to be better than the average politician.
However, can we please put all this “transformational” bullshit to bed? Let’s have this discussion at the end of his first term, when we discover we have not extricated ourselves from Iraq.
OK?
DougJ
I’m not sure the misogyny really hurt Hillary’s campaign that much over all, though. Her greatest victory, in a way, was New Hampshire which was spurred in part by women turning out in anger over the feeling that the media was treating her unfairly. (I really do believe this is true.)
The Clintons are absolute masters of jujitsu. Whatever bad thing comes at them — misogyny, a crazed Republican Congress, the fact they have fewer delegates than their opponent — they have a way of somehow turning it to their advantage. If it had been Bill Clinton’s brother or son or longtime male partner who was running and losing, there would be some other explanation of it wasn’t really his fault really lost — homophobia, or Clinton fatigue, or some other grossly unfair prejudice.
ThymeZone
Okay, I just had the voice of John Mister Magoo McCain blasted into my ear thanks to CNN’s program editing.
Now I finally now where I have heard this annoying voice before:
George E. Jessel.
It’s going to be a long year for you Republicans. A long year.
Just Some Fuckhead
Here’s where sense is failing you: HRC and BHO are ON THE SAME SIDE, so the HRC stuff is actually WORSE than anything the Republicans can do.
So, illustrating with a bad example, if me and my German shepherd (does that violate Godwin’s law??) were going for a hike where rattlesnakes were known to hang out, I’d dress appropriately with rugged hiking boots and durable denim pants, PREPARED for the likelihood of a nasty rattlesnake encounter.
If I encountered a rattlesnake and wound up snakebit despite my preparations, that would be unfortunate but in hindsight, understandable. If, OTOH, my dog attacked and killed me that would be much much worse. Get it now?
Rick Taylor
I’m looking forward to the next few months. All those people he thought he was mean to Hillary will be in for a surprise; it will be nothing compared to the campaign against McCain.
And Hillary Clinton isn’t? Pardon me while I fall over laughing.
Every politician is going to make gaffes, and is going to have skeletons in their closet. What matters is most is how they respond when they slip up or are attacked. I originally bought the argument that Clinton was better prepared to respond to right wing smears; the last couple months have been eye opening for me. Obama isn’t perfect, but he’s responded quickly and in an adult fashion to the various scandals and such. I haven’t been nearly as impressed with Clinton in that regard, and that honestly surprised me.
But even if you’re right, the point is moot. The primary is nearly settled. The remaining undecided super-delegates are not about to nearly unanimously endorse Clinton. You go to the Presidential election with the nominee you have, although I’m personally quite happy with this one.
ThymeZone
Not my job, I haven’t advanced any such bullshit.
Clearly the man is a new voice and has a new style of message. What you want to make of that is up to you.
I have advanced the notion that this is a realignment year, but that is a political assessment, not a personality assessment or a phenomenon assessment. In any case, I think the political map is going to be redrawn this year, and I think that the swing power is going to shift west. Let me put it this way, if Arizona were not McCain’s home state, I would put it in play for November. This same effect will bear on other Western states.
I also think that Mister Magoo cannot get more than 40% of the popular vote, and might hit 35% or less which gives me a win on a bet with DougJ. I think Magoo is that bad and our guy is that good.
aka The Hammer
HRC will take this to the convention floor. She won’t say die. The Monty Python piece is right on the money. She is a fool. She, and many of her supporters, just can’t accept that it isn’t about misogyny, it is about the fact that there are a majority of people who voted that don’t want her being president – for a whole lot of very good reasons having nothing to do with any of the above.
Personally, the “victim” card she continually plays is really repulsive to me – I find it patently offensive and don’t want our president to be a victim.
I don’t want another liar.
I don’t want another Clinton.
I don’t want someone with no center or values.
But she is like W, she can’t learn from her mistakes and will continue until the last gasp and then try to have BHO loose so she can “have her due” in 4 years.
John Cole is right about all of this.
ThymeZone
Note to self, decline JSF’s invitation to dinner at his place ….
PeterJ
That Austrian Horror Dad is a pro-lifer?
sunny
If Hillary had the nomination and started all that whining and complaining about how mean and sexist the mean old sexist Republicans are, said Republicans would have ripped her to pieces. She should count herself lucky BHO remembered to which party he belonged.
Tlaloc
“Here’s where sense is failing you: HRC and BHO are ON THE SAME SIDE”
Yes, the world is very simple if you arbitrarily reduce everything to dialectics. Welcome to the world of Bush- it’s all “us” vs. “them.”
Or you can deal with a view of reality that’s slightly more nuanced.
“If, OTOH, my dog attacked and killed me that would be much much worse. Get it now?”
If your dog nipped you and you cried like a baby just before you were about to go out for a game of “place my naked hand in the rattlesnake hole and swirl it around” I’d feel kind of bad for you. Get it now?
Rick:
“And Hillary Clinton isn’t? Pardon me while I fall over laughing.”
Hillary _was._ She also isn’t. The key being the passage of time. Specifically the Decade over which the GOP has thrown ever charge possible against her. It’s done. They got nothing left that isn’t a boring retread.
But she’s not the candidate so it doesn’t matter. Obama is. And he’s faced nothing in terms of opponent research or plain slander. It’s all out there waiting to come out or be made up (either way works, frankly).
Rome Again
Should we run this country based on who can survive the opposition or who would govern better. I don’t care if she took on the entire GOP full force for the last 50 years, I don’t think she would govern well. I never thought she’d make a good president, personally, but her “victim” politics in recent months tell me she would be a completel disaster. I don’t want her representing our country simply because “the GOP has already taken their potshots”.
thefncrow
I am so freaking sick of Bill Clinton.
He’s consistently been lowering the bar for the behavior we expect out of former Presidents, but then, today, he takes the cake with this, where he goes on a tirade about this one reporter(which isn’t the bad part, but that will be obvious):
I can’t wait for the Clintons to go away, hopefully without ever coming back.
Rome Again
Personally I’m hoping they decide to purchase some tiny island in the pacific and insert themselves as King and Queen. They could live out their dream of ruling supremely without hurting anyone.
Tlaloc
“Should we run this country based on who can survive the opposition or who would govern better.”
Hey, in an ideal world I’m right there with you. Let me just check if this is an ideal world.
uh…
Pixar still works for fucking disney. Hayden “Anakin” Christiansen is still working in hollywood. Rush still isn’t in the Rock and Roll hall of fame.
Yeah, I’m gonna go ahead and call this “_not_ ideal.”
“I don’t think she would govern well.”
I don’t think she’d govern well either. I just saw her as the best of bad options, which has now winnowed down to worse, pretty much unacceptable, options. Shit happens.
But anyway I wasn’t making an argument for why Hillary should be the candidate, that ship’s sailed. I’m just suggesting the more sensitive Obama supporters to buy a cup and some tylenol because the general will be way worse.
Mary
LISTEN TO RACHEL. LISTEN TO JOHN. SHE IS NOT GOING AWAY. SHE IS NOT CONCEDING.
Clinton clarifies her case.
“August and no earlier.”
Rome Again
Hey, I agree it’s not idea, but if everyone took the stance that we can do it a certain way because it’s not an ideal world, we’d never be able to walk that back. I live according to what would be ideal because I do less damage that way.
I agree that you weren’t making an argument for why Hillary should be the candidate, but I think Obama has MUCH less baggage to worry about. I think what you’re going to see out of the GOP is going to be more about race (under whispers of course).
Just Some Fuckhead
Barely, and only because you are too fucking stoopid to blockquote. But your point is the same as a lot of Clinton supporters, “Oh, HRC throwing the sink and playing the race card isn’t that big a deal.” It’s not a big deal for YOU because you want her to do ANYTHING to win, no matter how disgusting. OTOH, you’d probably have some issues with any corrollary “kitchen sink” tactic Obama could have launched. You’d be falling on the fainting couch moaning, “sexism!” and “misogyny!” if he went after her the way she went after him. Hell, the lot of you are doing this already and Obama has arguably run the most deferential primary campaign in recent history.
But regardless of what each of us thinks of the tactics of our respective candidates, history says it’s a big deal. The Willie Horton ad that sank Dukakis originated from Al Gore in the ’88 primary. The sleaze/graft shit thrown at Clinton in ’92 originated with Jerry Brown. You can argue Clinton still won but only because a strong right-wing third party candidate made it possible to win with a mere 40% of the vote. And the charges that Jerry Brown started bounced around for six years until Bill Clinton was impeached and then a couple more years to cost Al Gore the presidency. And then we all lost.
So, I don’t think HRC’s conduct in the campaign will pale in comparison to what the Republicans are going to unleash. I think it’ll prove to be a pretty good preview of what we’re going to see from Republicans.
Rome Again
What Fuckhead said. ;)
Laertes
Tomorrow she’s going to declare victory, publicly offer Barack Obama the ambassadorship to Gabon, and announce the formation of her VP search committee.
Tlaloc
“I live according to what would be ideal because I do less damage that way.”
Noted (and respected). Politics is not an area where I am personally inclined to idealism.
“I think Obama has MUCH less baggage to worry about.”
He’s a product of one of the most corrupt political scenes in America. The odds he not only survived but thrived there (as in catapulted onto the national stage with a shocking rapidity) without getting dirty are pretty much nil. Again- I don’t do idealism wrt politics.
Obama’s surely got dirt out there. And like I said the SBVT stuff makes it clear that just making shit up works plenty fine.
“I think what you’re going to see out of the GOP is going to be more about race (under whispers of course).”
Well yeah. I’m sure race will play a big role.
Just Some Fuckhead
It ain’t the dog ya gotta worry about. Rrrowwww.
ThymeZone
Most people long for another island,
One where they know they will like to be.
Bali Ha’i may call you,
Any night, any day,
In your heart, you’ll hear it call you:
“Come away…Come away.”
Bali Ha’i will whisper
In the wind of the sea:
“Here am I, your special island!
Come to me, come to me!”
Your own special hopes,
Your own special dreams,
Bloom on the hillside
And shine in the streams.
If you try, you’ll find me
Where the sky meets the sea.
“Here am I your special island
Come to me, Come to me.”
Bali Ha’i,
Bali Ha’i,
Bali Ha’i!
Someday you’ll see me floatin’ in the sunshine,
My head stickin’ out from a loaf nighin’ cloud,
You’ll hear me call you,
Singin’ through the sunshine,
Sweet and clear as can be:
“Come to me, here am I, come to me.”
If you try, you’ll find me
Where the sky meets the sea.
“Here am I your special island
Come to me, Come to me.”
Bali Ha’i,
Bali Ha’i,
Bali Ha’i!
(Rodgers and Hammerstein).
ThymeZone
I know. Where is the snake again?
DougJ
The more I think about it, the more I think the sexism angle is bs. The Clintons just latched onto it because they realized they could get votes with it. If it hadn’t been that, it would have been something else.
Maybe I’m being too harsh — as a charter member of MoveOn, I’m *really* pissed off by all this bs about the far left. They were happy to have a pissed off left when they needed us in 1998, but now that we don’t march in lock step with them, we’re thrown aside. The same is true for the women voters they’re getting with the sexism charge. If Hillary runs again and the other candidate is a woman who gets more of the woman vote, Hillary won’t hesitate to throw her old female supporters under the bus.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Now you know how Chris Gaines must’ve felt.
ThymeZone
Uh, yeah, I think we settled that about 3 months ago.
It was horse manure from the get go. Still is.
It was. Not a Muslim, as far as I know. Bitter, I’m your blue collar white working class candidate. Shame on you, Barack Obama. How dare you claim racism. Your Iraq policy, what a fairy tale. Even John McCain is better prepared to be president than you are.
I mean, WTF didn’t they try?
Rome Again
:) That was PERFECT!
Thanks!
Tlaloc
“But your point is the same as a lot of Clinton supporters, “Oh, HRC throwing the sink and playing the race card isn’t that big a deal.” It’s not a big deal for YOU because you want her to do ANYTHING to win, no matter how disgusting. OTOH, you’d probably have some issues with any corrollary “kitchen sink” tactic Obama could have launched. You’d be falling on the fainting couch moaning, “sexism!” and “misogyny!” if he went after her the way she went after him. Hell, the lot of you are doing this already and Obama has arguably run the most deferential primary campaign in recent history.”
That’s an… interesting… take on what I wrote. I’m sort of at a loss since it bears no relationship whatsoever to anything I said, or even might have said.
“So, I don’t think HRC’s conduct in the campaign will pale in comparison to what the Republicans are going to unleash.”
Ah… innocence. Cherish it. I mistakenly thought you were old enough to remember 2004.
Rick Taylor
Josh Marshall explained better than I could why a McCain Presidency would be a bad idea.
Just Some Fuckhead
I can only guess what you mean when you don’t make yourself clear.
I thought you’d just slink away when it was clear your candidate lost but you’re just going to sit in here for six fucking months gloomanddooming us to death, aren’t you?
Rick Taylor
I bought that one too, once. Obama supporters aren’t the only ones capable of living in a fantasy.
Once it was clear Obama had the lead, the Republicans held their fire against Clinton (I don’t think that was because one or the other was more electable; I think they would have held their fire on Obama if he had been the candidate in second place sniping at the likely nominee). They didn’t touch Tuzla, for example. What’s worse was, in her short sighted planning, she was laying the ground work for them for November. She was emphasizing experience, freely giving away of course McCain has past the commander in chief threshold. . .but I don’t know about Obama. You think they wouldn’t have used that against her had she won the nomination? Her resume isn’t that much thicker than his. You think they wouldn’t attack her spurious claims about bringing peace to Northern Ireland, and facing sniper in Tuzla? You think they wouldn’t have made fun of the shot glass drinking gun toting personna she made up to try to outplay Obama? It would have been bloody.
Tlaloc
“I can only guess what you mean when you don’t make yourself clear.”
True enough. Obviously my point is having terrible difficulty being made clear enough.
“I thought you’d just slink away when it was clear your candidate lost but you’re just going to sit in here for six fucking months gloomanddooming us to death, aren’t you?”
And again you slip into a fantasy world. Shall we dissect the errors in your statement? First Hillary was never “my” candidate. I have a long list of people who I’d rather see be the dem nominee. But those people either never ran, or ran and got nowhere. The problem is Obama was never on the list in the first place. Hence Hillary became a grudging “best of bad options” choice.
Consequently her losing has no emotional impact on me (“slinking” would be another error) other than to see a fairly depressing scenario get a little gloomier. As before- shit happens.
Third, I strongly suspect Obama will win in November. There are plenty of institutional advantages for the dems. Obama’s main challenge, winning over Hillary voters, is one where his charisma will serve him well. Barring some dem idiocy of staggering proportions (which, granted, can never be ruled out with this party) he should win. So hardly gloomy, at least in terms of what you want.
In the future rather than blindly, and badly, pretending to know what I think or want or believe, just take a minute to ask. It’ll save us both time and you embarassment.
MDee
Heh. Won’t everyone be surprised when she announces she’s the nominee and Obama is going to have to pry the surgically installed tiara off her head.
IOW, given the mixed signals and the fact whenever the media says she’s going to concede or whatever she swings drastically in the other direction, I’m not holding my breath for a dignified ending. I wouldn’t rule out a career-ending independent run either (although the logistics of one are suspect).
Whatever. Don’t expect a lot of graciousness. Her surrogates sure haven’t been ratcheting down the rhetoric today.
As for Bill’s comment today; that just means the prick is indicating he will not campaign for Obama. Not, given his tin-ear lately, that’s such a bad thing. Frankly, I just as soon they exit stage right and leave the theater for the rest of the season. But typical for a Clinton, it a dick move in a long line of dick moves. Like I said, don’t expect a lot of graciousness.
sunny
*PLEASE LISTEN TO MARY, RACHEL, AND JOHN. SHE IS NOT GOING AWAY.*
John S.
Apparently you slept through that year.
Obama =/= Kerry
Kerry would have lost to Hillary on Super Tuesday.
Tlaloc
“Her resume isn’t that much thicker than his.”
It is from where I sit. Longer in the Senate plus another eight years sitting in the White House.
“You think they wouldn’t attack her spurious claims about bringing peace to Northern Ireland, and facing sniper in Tuzla? You think they wouldn’t have made fun of the shot glass drinking gun toting personna she made up to try to outplay Obama? It would have been bloody.”
I’m sure they would have _tried._ But no it wouldn’t have been bloody. It would have been _boring._ They spent a decade accusing the woman of murder and genocide. Somehow “fibbing” and “taking a shot” really don’t rank.
This is the thing about crying “wolf.” It loses it’s potency after a time. People start assuming you;re full of shit. And to then scream “badger” really doesn;t work to get anyone riled up.
Tlaloc
“Obama =/= Kerry”
Would you say Obama handled the Rezko or Wright flaps any better than Kerry did the SBVT?
I wouldn’t.
Besides which the point is that what the GOP said in 2004 was infinitely worse than anything Hillary pulled. That you can’t/won’t see that leads me back to my original statement- I feel bad for a lot of Obama supporters who are going to get one hell of a rude awakening about genuinely dirty politics in the general.
sunny
So what are you proposing Tlaloc? That because, in your estimation, Hillary would suffer less from Republican slings and arrows, we should concede your point and submit to a Hillary nomination?
Just Some Fuckhead
It’s going to be a long six months listening to Tialoc sigh heavily over and over.
Tlaloc
“So what are you proposing Tlaloc? That because, in your estimation, Hillary would suffer less from Republican slings and arrows, we should concede your point and submit to a Hillary nomination?”
Uh, no. My initial point had nothing to do with Hillary, it was about Obama. Other people keep dragging Hillary into the equation.
My initial point was that the general election is going to be much harder on Obama than this rather sedate primary, and that that’s going to probably come as a bit of a shock to those obama supporters who have been appalled, appalled I say, at how mean hilalry was.
That was it. Then other people kept making it a comparison between Obama and Hillary (which I obliged since it was their quarter).
Tlaloc
“It’s going to be a long six months listening to Tialoc sigh heavily over and over.”
#shrug#
You aren’t doing anything that would make me want to make it easier on you. Something to think about (or not as the case may be).
sunny
1-We know the general election is going to be hard on Obama. Do you think we are idiots?
2-Sedate? Are you fucking kidding me? *OBAMA* has been sedate, Hillary has acted like a back biting pitt bull. I’ve never seen anything like it.
Just Some Fuckhead
Now:
Earlier:
Scrutinizer
Tlaloc—
I agree with you: this hasn’t been a particularly vicious primary, and the Repubs will be launching much stronger attacks against Obama than anything he faced from Hillary. I also think that the Obama campaign has had to walk softly around Clinton—his campaign has had to swallow a lot of negativity from hers (Clinton comparing him unfavorable with McCain was the most egregious), and he hasn’t been able to pull off the the gloves because he couldn’t risk alienating Clinton supporters in the Party leadership. He won’t face that constraint against McCain. Hillary would have faced equally strong challenges from the Repubs, and it isn’t clear how well she would have overcome them.
Well that’s just it, innit? Sitting in the White House is not the same thing as having experience as President. Her major accomplishment during Clinton’s presidency was to bury universal health care as a viable political possibility for twenty years.
Tim F.
Even in Clinton planned to step down on Tuesday, she would deny it like hell until the voting was actually over. Nobody would show up to the polls if Hillary signaled that their vote wouldn’t make a difference.
Callisto
Platform planks? Her policies aren’t that much different overall than Obama’s. There’s not much to change there.
I doubt she’s really interested in changing policy anyway. She’s a Clinton fer cryin’ out loud.
Other concessions I’ll grant you – she’s interested in either 1) covering her massive campaign debt and/or 2) Getting a sweet position out of the deal, like Majority Leader or some such.
I doubt that she’d have to go to the convention to get that sort of stuff. Likely she’d be getting those sort of concessions offered from Obama/the party before then just to shut the hell up and back out of the race before the convention. She knows the DNC doesn’t want a convention fight and she’s going to use that to her advantage.
Tlaloc
“We know the general election is going to be hard on Obama. Do you think we are idiots?”
Naive. Not idiots.
“Sedate? Are you fucking kidding me? OBAMA has been sedate, Hillary has acted like a back biting pitt bull. I’ve never seen anything like it.”
See what I mean? It takes a deep naivete to think this sedate primary is anything special. Nothing Hillary has done is in the same league as the SBVT attacks on Kerry, the GOP savaging of Max Cleland, the “McCain’s black bastard baby” SC shit from 2000. That stuff was harsh.
Tlaloc
Wow, Justsomefuckhead, you really got me. In a statement about Obama I mentioned Hillary’s name as an aside. that TOTALLY makes the point about Hillary.
Just Some Fuckhead
Holy shit, and Obama has TWO black babies! What we’re we thinking when we rejected the Great White HopeCrusher?
Just Some Fuckhead
Actually, it totally makes a point about you.
Tlaloc
“Well that’s just it, innit? Sitting in the White House is not the same thing as having experience as President.”
Very true, but it looks a lot better than “Was small time local pol in most corrupt part of american political scene.” Know what I mean?
“Her major accomplishment during Clinton’s presidency was to bury universal health care as a viable political possibility for twenty years.”
And Obama’s accomplishment during that same time? _crickets_
That’s kind of the point. She was in the game. Yes she certainly made mistakes, although I think it is beyond unfair to suggest she personally buried universal health care. Mistakes, and learning from them, is part of experience.
And once again before anyone else mistakes what I’m saying- Hillary’s shot at the nomination is essentially over. She might milk it for a while longer but there’s really no chance for her to be the nominee. I’ve actually been saying this for weeks, so, not I’m not trying to persuade anyone to back her now.
Tlaloc
“Actually, it totally makes a point about you.”
That I shouldn’t waste time on people who are ridiculously literal and prone to semantic games? Yes, that point is loud and clear. Your temper tantrum is dutifully acknowledged. Run along now.
Otto Man
No, because unlike you, I’m not writing from the 1960s. Got any evidence that Obama was corrupt? Just repeating “Chicago politician” over and over again like a Republican saying “San Francisco values” isn’t going to do it.
The anti-Obama folks keep insisting he’s naive and a dreamer and can’t survive in the rough and tumble world of Washington, all the while arguing that he’s a sleazy, slick politician who’s a mastermind of the smoky backrooms of Chicago Politics™.
Can’t be both, pal. Either Bambi or Gotti. Pick one of your moronic simplicities if you must, but you can’t have both.
Tlaloc
“Got any evidence that Obama was corrupt?”
Certainly not, I just don’t find it prudent to bet on “pure” in politics, especially when the odds are longer than normal.
“Can’t be both, pal. Either Bambi or Gotti.”
True, but _either_ is bad, right? So does it really matter which possibility turns out to be true?
Otto Man
Just because you’re ignorant of the facts, that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Obama pushed through the first campaign finance reform in Illinois in 25 years — even though he’s an Evil Chicago Politician™! He got a measure passed for videotaping homicide confessions and pushed through the first racial profiling law. He was also a chief sponsor of a law enhancing tax credits for the working poor, played a major role in negotiations over welfare reform and successfully pushed for increasing child care subsidies. He sponsored legislation to protect gay rights in housing and employment.
That’s just for starters. Read more here and here.
Would you like to compare and contrast their accomplishments in the ’90s now, Jiminy Cricket?
Otto Man
No, either is just logically consistent. It doesn’t mean either one would be true.
No amount of wishing will make it so, no matter how hard you want it to be.
olvr
Tlaloc,
You still haven’t grasped the point of JSF’s German shepherd-rattlesnake allegory.
The point is that attacks from someone in your own party – who people assume will be fair to you and give you the benefit of the doubt – are more damaging than those that come from the other party – who people assume will throw mud at you and make shit up.
So yes, the substance of the GOP attacks may be worse (bring on the gay sex/cocaine party rumors), but the fact that they are coming from the other side will mean they have much less credibility to those who just pay passing attention to the campaign.
Scrutinizer
LOL, although I wouldn’t call anyone who could get elected in Illinois “small time”. I imagine someone who could get elected to the Illinois state house would know how to throw the odd sharp elbow when necessary. That’s why I don’t worry too much about Obama being able to handle what the Repubs are willing to throw at him.
Well, he got his JD from Harvard in 91, worked as a community activist, worked at a law firm representing community organizers and voting rights cases, and taught ConLaw at UChicago. More of an accomplishments than blowing universal healthcare, at any rate.
I don’t think it’s unfair to lay the responsibility for the health care debacle at her feet. She was the boss of the project, and it was largely her refusal to work with fellow democrats in the Congress and her refusal to make the process an open one that led to its defeat.
Catfish N. Cod
Clinton and some of her surrogates keep pointing out that comitted supers haven’t voted yet-they do that at the convention. She’s got five months to convince them to vote for her at the convention.
No, the convention is in late August, so she has three months. But that’s not the point. She can lobby all she wants, but short of an endorsement from the Archangel Gabriel or a nuke in Manhattan, any lobbying of superdelegates after 2118 is achieved will be met with something between amusement and contempt. Fighting hard for an mathematically slim chance is one thing, but what idiot tries to undo a nomination?
To the world, Obama will have been nominated, and she will look like an ass, no matter what the technical details are. The portion of her brain that’s a savvy politician knows this; she’s a good pol. The problem is with the part of her brain telling her that the Presidency is her destiny.
Obama revealed a few hours ago that he called Hillary Sunday and offered to meet for one-on-one negotiations, at a time and place of her choosing. She hasn’t named a time or place; for that matter, it wasn’t clear she’d even accepted. Now why reveal the convo? To pressure her to meet, of course; he knows she’s reticent to do so, because it means admitting she’s got a fork stuck in her.
I think she’s going to force Obama to pull out enough supers to actually get 2118 — by whatever private count she is using — and only then will she negotiate.
Bellicausi
No, I don’t think she’s ready to concede. Why ask her donors to come to New York? Why make a speech the day before the last two primaries? I figure she’s going to “declare victory”; that she’s “won the popular vote”, at least by her calculation.
She’s taking this to Denver. And if she can’t sway enough delegates by that time, I think she’ll get her true believers whipped up to such a froth that they’ll believe that joining the McCain campaign was her only option.
Lack of money might be the only thing that stops this campaign.
I’ve made this same comment to a family member who now thinks I’m delusional. So, we’ll see tomorrow if I’m overly pessimistic about Hillary Clinton’s motives.
Scrutinizer
The definition of an honest politician? One who stays bought.
Scrutinizer
The Code Duello calls for negotiations to be carried out by the seconds, not the principals. The seconds choose the ground, the weapons, the ti—
Oh, wait.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Look, I can understand how people look at the psychology of the situation and conclude this, but the big news story of today (in terms of its significance) is the winding down of the HRC campaign’s field staff.
You just don’t do that, if you are planning a run in November. A general election campaign is not like a bag of microwave popcorn, that you can just pop it in, press button #2 and ding ! – 3 minutes later you have a bowl of hot buttery goodness (place the joke of ‘ur choice here).
It takes months of work to prepare the infrastructure to win a tough general election campaign, and if you think the primaries have already done all the work necessary then let’s place a little wager on whether Obama’s staff takes a 2 month vacation between now and the convention. I don’t think so.
If Hillary really thinks she can get the nomination now, there is no way they would be rolling up the field staff, because she would leave no stone unturned to ensure that she is able to clean McCain’s clock in November. Do you honestly think after what happened on Super Tuesday that the Clintons will let themselves get caught napping again? Nat ganna happ-en.
Hillary is moving on to 2012 from here, that’s what is really going on. Tomorrow night is the first campaign rally of the 2012 contest.
If Obama is as weak a candidate as Hillary has been claiming to believe, her best shot at the Presidency from here on out is to give a gracious concession speech tomorrow night, work moderately hard to help him try to win so she does get tagged with the blame when (she assumes) McCain surges to victory, and then the week after the election the knives will come out at the DNC, which will be remade under Terry’s leadership, and then you can kiss every last caucus goodbye as the rules for the 2012 primaries get rewritten to favor experienced establishment candidates only (sorry Iowa).
John S.
I see.
So it’s that you’re just full of shit, then?
Just Some Fuckhead
Maybe a spoof, perhaps best evah?
sunny
Oops, three months, of course you are right. I was tired. :)
What I said about turning the supers she and Ickes and others have said *explicitly*-that the supers can change their minds and vote for her at the convention.
See here.
Tlaloc
“Obama pushed through the first campaign finance reform in Illinois in 25 years—even though he’s an Evil Chicago Politician™! He got a measure passed for videotaping homicide confessions and pushed through the first racial profiling law. He was also a chief sponsor of a law enhancing tax credits for the working poor, played a major role in negotiations over welfare reform and successfully pushed for increasing child care subsidies. He sponsored legislation to protect gay rights in housing and employment.”
That’s supposed to impress me, right?
“Would you like to compare and contrast their accomplishments in the ‘90s now, Jiminy Cricket?”
if you like.
Obama- nothing worth mentioning
Hillary- part of the best Demcratic white house in modern history.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
fixt.
I blame the butter from the popcorn.
sunny
She’s letting go of advance teams because the primaries are over. Plus, she’s out of money-for now. John Aravosis:
Tlaloc
Otto:
“No amount of wishing will make it so, no matter how hard you want it to be.”
No disagreement. I’m looking at available evidence and probabilities. Given that Obama is the nominee and most likely the next president I certainly wouldn’t _wish_ for him to be either naive or a crook.
olvr:
“The point is that attacks from someone in your own party – who people assume will be fair to you and give you the benefit of the doubt – are more damaging than those that come from the other party – who people assume will throw mud at you and make shit up.”
I got the point and I did in fact address it- see what I wrote about dialectics above. It’s still true.
Scrutinizer:
“LOL, although I wouldn’t call anyone who could get elected in Illinois “small time”.”
For state politics no, it’s not small time, but compared to national, I’d certainly say yes.
“Well, he got his JD from Harvard in 91, worked as a community activist, worked at a law firm representing community organizers and voting rights cases, and taught ConLaw at UChicago. More of an accomplishments than blowing universal healthcare, at any rate.”
No, not really. None of those accomplishments tell me he has one iota of executive ability. Legal talent, maybe. Whereas Hillary was part of a powerful democratic white house _including bringing universal healthcare the closest it’s ever been to being enacted._ Hard to say she “blew” something when no one else has done anywhere close to as much to get the job done.
I find it interesting that the Obama supporters keep pushing the conversation back to being a comparison between the two. Given that I’ve explicitly stated repeatedly that Obama’s going to be the nominee, it seems odd.
“The definition of an honest politician? One who stays bought.”
No disagreement there. So knowing that why would you support a candidate whose entire platform is “look at me I’m an honest politician! No really!”
Seriously, you seem intelligent, so what gives?
Catfish N. Cod
What I said about turning the supers she and Ickes and others have said explicitly-that the supers can change their minds and vote for her at the convention.
Oh, I know they’ve said it. Some of them, including Hillary, might actually mean it. But Tom Vilsack also stated — publicly — that there would be consequences to continuing past this week. When your national co-chair starts saying things like this you are in DEEP trouble with your supers.
My main point is that Hillary will not step on the gas once she realizes the clutch is stuck in reverse.
sunny
I think there is a real division among her advisers and campaign staff. Rachel Maddow mentioned the mixed messages coming out of the Clinton camp all day today. We can go around all night over which set of tea leaves to read, but I still think Clinton believes something could happen to push her to the forefront.
dnA
D’oh!
Conservatively Liberal
When fed through the Tlaloc Translator, results in:
Someone call the Wahhhhhmbulance, this one is critical!
Otto Man
It’s nothing compared to the Special Ops missions Hillary was running in Bosnia, no. Just an actual stream of legislative accomplishments that contradicts your moronic assumption that he did nothing.
And what exactly did she do in that White House? She wasn’t in national security meetings. Her foreign policy experience consisted of receiving gifts from little girls. Her only involvement in domestic policy was a huge flaming trainwreck.
By your logic, Betty Currie should be the Democratic nominee, because she was part of the White House team too — and she sat right outside the Oval Office.
mannemalon
I agree that the Republicans are going to make it even uglier, but I believe it will partially be because they were allowed to by Hillary’s tactics. I believe she gave them a permission slip. I don’t think they could’ve gotten away with the racial polarizing if she hadn’t done it first. She lowered the bar for discourse extreeeeeeeemely low, and it will allow the Republicans to do as they do and lower it further.
John S.
OMG, she’s the most qualified EVAH!!
Troll or ignoramus – you decide.
Peter Johnson
I’m less and less convinced of this. The Clintons’ have pieces of guys like John McCain in their lower intestines.
I am more and more convinced that if it had been Hillary instead of Gore on the Democratic side in the Florida 2000 recount, not only would she now be president, but the FBI would still be looking for the bodies of the Brooks Brothers rioters.
The whole notion that the big bad Republicans are oh, so scary is something we need to disabuse ourselves of.
Otto Man
Absolutely. If you don’t think Hillary’s attacks on Obama aren’t going to be replayed in a 527 or McCain ad, you’re an idiot.
Otto Man
And I’m an idiot for the double negative. I really should just be focusing on the hockey.
HRA
“The moment we all stop pretending that Hillary lost because of sexism, the better off all women will be.”
This hard working white woman in the supposed Hillary bracket will never believe Hillary’s loss was due to sexism. In fact, I have been working for months to get the message across to non-believing friends in an email group. The message I send is one of expectations that were not met on Super Tuesday, no organization for the day after Super Tuesday and lack of good campaign financial management.
I believe the same as John, Mary and Rachel. If anyone watched Bill’s supposed fading away from the campaign, you had to look at the so obvious tongue in cheek when he turned sideways and focus on the word “may”.
John Edwards suspended his campaign and released his delegates when he endorsed Barack. She will not release her delegates if she suspends her campaign. She will keep them for Denver.
olvr
Hmmm, yes… yes, as I recall you wrote something like
As if grouping a Democrat with a fellow Democrat is somehow arbitrary.
The fact is, when people see Democratic Party elder states(wo)men like Ferraro and Clinton shit on the party’s new superstar, (call him unfit to be C-in-C, not sure if he’s muslim, etc.) it resonates among voters in a way that right-wing bile cannot.
That Obama has (for the most part) been able to slough off those internecine attacks tells me that he will be more resistant to the predictable GOP attack machine, not less.
Oh, and POTD goes to Peter Johnson
Church Lady
Otto Man, you might want to do a little more reading up on Obama’s accomplishments in the Illinois Senate. He’s not quite the legislative wunderkid you seem to think. Every single thing you hilighted was accomplished in a single year, and only because the leader of the Senate, a long time friend of our favorite crazy pastor, gave them to him. By doing this, many of Obama’s fellow Democrats in the Illinois Senate were very angry, as the legislation in question were not only originally their bills, but they had done the majority of the work on them. It was only after all the preliminary work was done that Obama was given the bills to push. One of the other Democratic Senators, whose bill was hijacked, compared it to carrying the ball for 99 years, only to have the half-back carry it in and get the stats, the glory and the press. From much of what I’ve read, Obama was not very popular with his fellow Dems in that chamber after that.
This same Senate leader was the person that said he was going to “make him a U.S. Senator” – guess who, and guess how he made it happen.
Also, the only way Obama won his first primary was to run unopposed. He did this by employing lawyers to contest all of his oppositions’ filing petitions, getting signitures disqualified for nitpicking reasons (name printed rather than cursive, incomplete adress, etc.), thereby reducing the number of valid signitures on their qualifying petitions to a number under the legal number required.
Legal? Yes. Strong-armed politics? You bet. The “Chicago way”? Absolutely. Opportunistic? Uh huh. Different type of polititian? Hell no.
Should you care to verify, all of this information is available in the archives of the Chicago Tribune and the Chicago Sun Times.
Just Some Fuckhead
Uh, it’s the Clinton troll/spoof pushing that meme.
Just Some Fuckhead
Goddammit. That’s twice now in as many days I’ve been robbed.
ThymeZone
Note to self, mystery of why dog attacked and ate him?
Solved.
Rome Again
So we’re back to picking out china makes someone qualified to be President?
Tialoc, why haven’t you been around when we had these discussions previously?
And as far as this being a sedate primary, that’s why John has a heading called “I Can No Longer Rationally Discuss The Clinton Campaign” and I’ve been tearing out my hair, RIGHT?
Church Lady
99 yards, not 99 years. And I don’t have any buttered popcorn to blame!
olvr
Church Lady,
Thank you for providing those examples of how Obama used his remarkable persuasive abilities to pass legislation where other, more “experienced” lawmakers had failed.
How, contrary to the beliefs of some of his more naive supporters, he is often willing to stick to his principles even if it means pissing off fellow party members.
How, despite his outward charm, he can strong-arm and fight with the best of them.
[Although I must say, I’m not sure if those facts are accurate… I’m checking each page of the Sun-Times archives and I’ll let you know….]
ThymeZone
He simply hypnotized them with his amazing blackness and his ability to run and jump.
Um, why are we having this conversation again?
Oh yeah, because Mister Magoo flew his airplane into the Hanoi lake and spent five years in their POW dungeons, which totally qualifies him to be president. And Barack only spent twenty years screaming Death to Whitey with Rev. Wright and then one year getting sweet legislative deals that enabled him to slide into the White House while nobody was looking.
Got it.
Conservatively Liberal
Church Lady has convinced me that Obama has this sewn up this fall. No doubt about it.
Thanks, and keep up the great work!
Catfish N. Cod
I still think Clinton believes something could happen to push her to the forefront.
I do too. I just am not sure that Factor X actually exists anywhere but in Hillary’s head.
Otto Man
Beat me to it. The goalposts shifted from “he didn’t do anything” to “he did stuff, but only with help!” rather quickly.
And when the argument made about Hillary is that she was in the White House during the 1990s influencing world events by her mere presence — well, how do you think she got there? Was she elected as First Lady, or did she get there with a little help?
TenguPhule
Best Argument for a Hillary run in 2000 ever made.
Church Lady
olvr- It wasn’t his persuasive powers, it was the fact that the Dems took the majority in the Illinois Senate that year. Read up.
TenguPhule
You left out the parts where he screamed like a little girl and sold out his fellow soldiers to the enemy in order to avoid pain.
Otto Man
So he gets things done when there are Democratic majorities in the legislature? Wow, yet another strike against his chances to be effective in 2009.
Just Some Fuckhead
Contrast that with HRC’s “effort” at health care reform in ’93. Democrats held a 57-43 majority in the Senate and a 259-176 majority in the House.
theturtlemoves
I kind of find the entire creation myth of the Sun Goddess awfully suspect. Even folks here who think she’s run a horrible campaign still compliment her on her smarts and political savvy, but I’ve never really bought it. She strikes me as the kind of smart that is only really impressive if you don’t look too closely. What has she ever really done in her life that is evidence of this towering intellect and Machiavellian political acumen? If we are being completely honest, Hillary Rodham would never have been senator from New York, let alone a presidential candidate. Without that Clinton tacked on the end, she might have ended up a relatively wealthy, but obscure, corporate lawyer, but that’s about it.
Maybe I’m being too harsh because I kind of liked her last year and was ready to support her and then she and her crew just shit all over the campaign trail and blamed everyone else for the smell…
ThymeZone
The metaphor police stopped by and left this can of air freshener ……
Beej
If Obama wins and runs a mediocre administration or McCain wins and doesn’t run for a second term, you actually think Hillary Clinton can run for and win the Democratic nomination and the Presidency in 2012? Really? Please explain how she does that when 90% of eligible African American voters just plain don’t vote.
After the way the Clinton campaign has approached racial issues in this campaign, how in hell can anyone suppose that large numbers of AAs would ever vote for her again?
Conservatively Liberal
What I find interesting is that the Hillary supporters point to her political career as an indicator that she has earned her way to where she is now.
No, she married her way there. Anyone who thinks that Hillary Rodham (sans the ‘Clinton’) could have just moved to New York and taken the senate seat like she did is only fooling themselves. She got that seat because of who she is married to, and that is that. The same goes for her Presidential aspirations. Hillary Rodham wouldn’t even be a blip on the radar without that last name of Clinton.
Obama had to work his way to where he is, nothing was just given to him because of who he was. Hillary leapfrogged to the Senate over Bill, and that is her only political claim to fame.
Enough with the phony feminism on the part of Hillary and her supporters. Hillary’s claim to fame is in the name that she married in to, and nothing more.
Church Lady
Also, olvr, check out some of the Times’ stories on Obama’s time in the Illinois Senate. It lays out some of the same info. Pertinent article dates are 07/30/07, 12/20/07 and 05/11/08.
Rome Again
More than that, I’m sure there are other women out there besides me who found her victimizing sexist crap to be totally disgusting and will not forget. I’m not AA, but I would never vote for her.
Rome Again
Unfortunate way of putting it, but, I think you are correct. Her name recognition only comes from once being first lady. She rode that recognition into the senate and now is trying to ride it into the presidency and it’s just NOT working!
ThymeZone
I am disappointed that my President By Injection theme never caught on.
ThymeZone
Was I too sexogynist? Or too misesexist?
Rome Again
Sorry TZ, the way I see it, for a theme to work, it has to be self explanatory, and that one was just a little bit light in that department. It needs to be dumbed down to idiot level so they know what you’re talking about. Your theme didn’t dumb it down enough.
Thanks for playing, try again! ;)
ThymeZone
My years of work at BJ, wasted? Will I never reach the Blog Hallafame?
Rome Again
Are you taking a retirement? I was under the impression you still had plenty of time to create magic here and would eventually receive hallafame status.
Besides, you DID already recieve hallafame status once (can’t find the link anymore, but I showed it to you previously), where you made up a word and it ended up on an internet wordsmithing dictionary, don’t you remember that?
Perhaps I’m wrong and your 15 mins are already up! ;)
theturtlemoves
I can’t take credit for the shit metaphor. That was just an extrapolation from a Lewis Black bit where he talks about the Bush administration taking a massive shit in front of the American people, then proudly displaying it for everyone. Then when someone points out they just took a giant shit in front of everyone, they accuse them of being Un-American, because it is obviously fertilizer. I find the parallels between the Bush crew and the Clinton crew disturbing on many, non-scatalogical levels, but that’s what sprung forth from my keyboard at this late hour…
On a more serious note, the parallels that do disturb me are the valuing of loyalty before competence, the kick-ass reality distortion field they seem to live in, and the desire for power seemingly for no other reason than to have it.
theturtlemoves
And the pandering. Dear lord, the pandering. Bush with his stupid Texas accent after having attended private schools in the Northeast and then the Ivy League and Hillary with her whiskey drinkin’ and down home folk sayin’s about punching a frog to see if it’ll hop or some such shit. We native South Dakotans may be simple folk, but we don’t run around punching amphibians for fun. Snipe hunting and cow-tipping, sure, but punching frogs? What kind of a hick punches frogs?
Rome Again
Of course the turtle is concerned. He knows he might be next.
theturtlemoves
The turtle holds on his back the four elephants that hold up the world. Even the Gods don’t dare punch the turtle…
Conservatively Liberal
Yeah, but the elephants crap all over the turtle. That has to suck.
Talk about the bottom of the totem pole…lol! ;)
Brachiator
There is a notion held by some (obviously all) people that a strong, powerful woman, is capable of doing anything. This strong, powerful thing gets multiplied when the woman is married to the president. So, the fantasy was that Bill and Hillary were in some ways co-presidents.
Hillary and her campaign staff were so in tune with this notion that they positioned her candidacy to emphasize her supposed “experience” as First Lady. Her supporters eagerly lapped this stuff up, as did most reporters, who never challenged her on this in the debates. They made a half-assed examination of her belatedly released appointment logs which showed conclusively that she was never involved in any high level policy meetings, and noted that she never held a high security clearance, etc., but never directly challenged her when she insisted that she was the bestest possible nominee ever.
But some of this is just human nature. No matter how sophisticated we pretend to be, we almost automatically assume that the spouse of a great person must also be great.
But Hillary went the extra mile and tried to puff up her resume to suggest more than being “presidential by association” when she lied about dodging sniper fire or being integral in Northern Ireland peace talks.
She is still buying into this with her latest insistence that she is the better, stronger candidate even though she is behind in the delegate count.
And even though she has dismissed much of her staff, I won’t believe that she has conceded until she actually says it, and maybe not even then. She does not seem to be capable of losing gracefully, and in the end has tried to transform a political campaign into a social cause, as she attempts to fight off all the sexists who have tried to deny her natural and inevitable right to become the Democratic Party nominee.
Just Some Fuckhead
Axelrod said the one big tactical error they made early on what underestimating the degree to which she’d get (unchallenged) experience credit for the Clinton presidency.
Even so, I don’t hold the same low opinion of her as many of you do. She and WJC worked together on their victories and failures.
I think she’s an above-average political operative and a mediocre candidate, much like George Walker Bush.
Tax Analyst
No, no, no, TZ – haven’t you learned anything here?
If they didn’t do what he wanted that mean, angry black man, Osama Hussein Heisblack Barack might form a posse with his America-hating wife, and all those radical, hateful preacher’s…the one’s whose Master Plan OHHB is secretly gearing up to decree at his inauguration might at his direction convince all the smoldering, teeming masses of racist black people to take up arms and go out and hurt all us hard-working but basically helpless and ineffectual white folks. They might even lynch us…did you know black people were often involved in incidents of lynching years ago in the South? It’s true, hardly any lynching ever took place where there wasn’t a Negro somewhere right in the middle of the whole sordid affair.
It would be naive to believe that such an angry black man (did I mention that he is black?)could have used reasonable arguments and combined them with a knack for working with other people to accomplish progressive goals. They were just afraid he’d get pissed off if they didn’t vote for his legislation.
He was probably lucky to get that JD at Harvard…if he was a white woman it probably wouldn’t have happened. You should know that by now, too…Gerry Ferraro explained it all several weeks ago, remember?
And Illinois? ILLINOIS? That hick, back-water place? Jesus, who could imagine that a guy who held elective office in a place like that could be President of the United States? I mean, Illinois has got to be the most corrupt state in the union, what with some crazy, black pastor dictating to the State Senate leader just what laws will get passed and holding sway with Mugabe-like intimidation. Illinois? It can’t hold a candle to way responsible states, like, for example, Arkansas, conduct their political agenda. Please, has anyone from Illinois ever done anything politically important without fixing or strong-arming every inch of the way? Name one guy – and even if you can I’ll bet Chicago Tribune and Sun Times have got all the real skinny on how he got things done in those 100%-as-God-is-their-witness reliable Archive files.
Did you know the Senator hung out with 60’s radicals? Can anyone verify where he was when JFK got shot? I didn’t think so.
In re-reading this I don’t think it’s all that much more over-the-top than a several anti-Obama posts from a bit earlier. It’s got about as much connection to relevance and reality as they do.
People, stop projecting your 1984 fears and your 2008 cynicism onto this man. Is he going to be “perfect”? No. Is he going to try and accomplish some of the things that people who consider themselves Democrats want done – or is he just out to stroke his own ego and someone implied a while ago? I don’t really see any evidence to that effect.
One does not have to have Jiminy Cricket on their shoulder…or even excavating dried crud from their butt…to want to give someone who seems like he might have a real and better vision of the future the nod over stale, old, re-heated leftovers like John McCain or the chronically and habitually incompetent (examples: handling of the Health Care issue during Clinton term#1, the “wrong at every turn” campaign for the Presidency in 2008, which somehow took a name-recognize, financial-well-oiled candidate from the position of “Primary Lock” to something more akin to a “Broken Clock”) would-be-Chief Executive, Hillary Clinton. Question: Just what is her “vision” for America and it’s people? From recent campaigning it apparently is limited to having us hang around doing shots while we wait prayerfully for her political resurrection to save us.
I’ve given it some thought and I think I’m gonna go with the Possibly Very Scary Black Guy Who Can’t Win In November And Even If He Does He Will Probably Be Really Mediocre Because Some People Are Afraid He Might Be.
Why worry that he MIGHT BE Mediocre, anyway, since it’s already patently clear that Mediocre is likely well-beyond John McCain’s best potential and that Hillary appears to be the leading candidate for the Encyclopedia Brittanica example picture for the word “Mediocre” in it’s next edition? For all her education and intelligence she hasn’t demonstrated anything resembling Executive Competence nor the recognition that progressive ideas have to be SOLD to the American people in a way that they understand and will decide to support rather than dictated from above by a wiser one.
Rant over…good-night.
Brachiator
While it would be easy for the Republicans to challenge Clinton on this, it would have been difficult for Obama to have done so without inciting even more spurious charges of being sexist. Besides, it is very tough to fight the romance novel psychology behind this. Some women insist on viewing Bill and Hillary as soulmates who shared the presidency before and would have done so again under a new Clinton Restoration. Others were simply in love with Bill and wanted to see the lovable rogue back in the White House. They positively swooned over the idea that Hillary would formally be president, but Bill would be just around the corner to help her and offer her advice.
And even people not swayed by romance novel fantasies often simply assumed that electing Hillary would guarantee a return to the successes of Bill Clinton’s administration, and Hillary picked up on this idea when she talked about how you needed another Clinton to clean up after another Bush. The idea here is that Bill and Hillary were more or less interchangeable, and it is tough to fight because people want to believe it. It is easy — and natural — to transfer the good feelings that people held toward Bill to Hillary. It was, however, much more difficult for Hillary to hold onto these good feelings except on the part of her most devoted acolytes.
This is not borne out by the available evidence. The Constitution and the procedures surrounding the granting of security clearances, Executive Office access, etc., make it hard for a president to make a spouse or close relative a cabinet level officer. In addition, none of the books on the Clinton years supported Senator Clinton’s intimations that she was co-president or even apprentice president, including Bill Clinton’s own books about his White House years. Whenever Senator Clinton claimed a high degree of input in policy making, the facts contradicted her.
More importantly, while Senator Clinton was always quick to assert that she had passed some presidential threshold or knew what it was like in the White House more than Obama, she never really demonstrated that she was the more qualified candidate. She and her campaign advisors rightly figured that if she kept repeating that she had learned to be president just because of her proximity to Bill Clinton, then everybody would assume that it must be so.
But this was really no different than the claims of Bush supporters that he learned to be president while sitting on his daddy’s knee.
And look where that got us.
Rome Again
Did Hillary help Bill hold the cigar?
Rome Again
That’s an interesting way of looking at it. I hope nobody is that daft.
Conservatively Liberal
She offered, but Bill said that he was going to put it in his humidor and save it for later.
TenguPhule
Yes, whatever will he do with overwhelming majorities in the House and Senate?
Republicans, soon to be the new Endangered Species taken off the protection list.
Conservatively Liberal
Knowing some Democratic officeholders, I can safely bet that some of them would offer to put the Republicans on the Endangered Species list for their own protection. This party has a long way to go before they start to grow a new spine.
It is my hope that with Obama leading the way, Democrats will pull their heads out of their asses and lead for once. But I am not looking to run roughshod over anyone, I want reasoned progress. I think Obama is capable of making it happen. He will not sell everyone on a specific idea, but if it is sound he will convince the majority to go along with it.
I don’t expect him to poll his way through his presidency, nor would I want him to. In fact, I don’t think we really need to worry about it that much because Barack is ‘closer’ to ‘we the people’ than Hillary (or Bill) or McCain have ever been. He has been where we are, up close, and he knows the problems we are facing in this country. I think he better understands what is on the mind of the average person, what matters most to them. That gives me hope that he will push for legislation that starts to favor the workers who make this country what it is.
I don’t expect any miracles in Obama, there is no putting him on a pedestal. Not me. I really believe that he will do the best he can for our country, and that he has a lot more of us to thank for his position than Hillary or McCain. He knows who ‘buttered his bread’, and he is not going to turn his back on us.
He’s going to need us to help him get the job done.