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You are here: Home / Politics / War on Terror / War on Terror aka GSAVE® / Liars

Liars

by John Cole|  June 5, 200810:17 am| 136 Comments

This post is in: War on Terror aka GSAVE®, Republican Crime Syndicate - aka the Bush Admin.

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TPM has the Phase II report on Pre-War intelligence that was withheld by Pat Roberts for, oh, years:

–Statements and implications by the President and Secretary of State suggesting that Iraq and al-Qa’ida had a partnership, or that Iraq had provided al-Qa’ida with weapons training, were not substantiated by the intelligence.

–Statements by the President and the Vice President indicating that Saddam Hussein was prepared to give weapons of mass destruction to terrorist groups for attacks against the United States were contradicted by available intelligence information.

–Statements by President Bush and Vice President Cheney regarding the postwar situation in Iraq, in terms of the political, security, and economic, did not reflect the concerns and uncertainties expressed in the intelligence products.

–Statements by the President and Vice President prior to the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate regarding Iraq’s chemical weapons production capability and activities did not reflect the intelligence community’s uncertainties as to whether such production was ongoing.

As Tim told me- “Shorter Phase II Intelligence Report- the dirty fucking hippies were right about everything.”

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Reader Interactions

136Comments

  1. 1.

    Tom Hilton

    June 5, 2008 at 10:21 am

    As Tim told me- “Shorter Phase II Intelligence Report- the dirty fucking hippies were right about everything.”

    Yeah, but they were right prematurely. That makes them completely wrong.

  2. 2.

    Beth in VA

    June 5, 2008 at 10:29 am

    But let’s not worry about that now, what’s done is done. Now we just need to make sure we don’t SURRENDER to the terrorists! /snark

  3. 3.

    r€nato

    June 5, 2008 at 10:29 am

    and yet Jonah Goldberg still has a regular column in the LA Times and Bloody Bill Kristol still has a regular column in the NY Times.

    I don’t care how right we are, or how often we are right; we still stink of patchouli to the Oh So Serious crowd.

  4. 4.

    PaulB

    June 5, 2008 at 10:30 am

    But, see, they were right for the wrong reasons (BDS, anti-war peaceniks, etc.), so it doesn’t count.

  5. 5.

    PaulB

    June 5, 2008 at 10:31 am

    Question from Atrios:

    Is there a single pundit on the teevee who expresses the opinion of the majority of the country about Iraq? There might be some politicians or political surrogates, but your basic pundit? Serious question. I can’t think of one.

  6. 6.

    Punchy

    June 5, 2008 at 10:31 am

    Cleary, the author of the report is a miserable creature, just parroting left-wing hate groups. He’s delusional, and obviously not the same author the Administration knew back when.

    I’d just love for some Dem to take the entire report, walk over to Roberts’ desk, and as hard as humanly possible just slam the entire thing down, and yell, “See? That wasn’t so muthafucking hard to finish, now was it?” and walk away.

  7. 7.

    r€nato

    June 5, 2008 at 10:33 am

    Is there a single pundit on the teevee who expresses the opinion of the majority of the country about Iraq? There might be some politicians or political surrogates, but your basic pundit? Serious question. I can’t think of one.

    To be against war is to be un-American and no media executive is going to allow that on their airwaves.

    Not being snarky at all; if you’re pro-war, you’re a Serious Person even if you were and continue to be completely fucking wrong about Iraq. If you’re anti-war and you were completely fucking right about Iraq, the only airtime you get is on Democracy Now!

  8. 8.

    Wilfred

    June 5, 2008 at 10:37 am

    What about the majority of the Democratic Party, at least, when it comes to throwing the NIE on Iran out the window?

    I’ve supported Obama as a voice of reason but his comments before AIPAC are beyond fucking belief:

    A mere 12 hours after claiming the Democratic presidential nomination, Barack Obama appeared before the American Israel Public Affairs Committee yesterday — and changed himself into an Israel hard-liner.

    He promised $30 billion in military assistance for Israel. He declared that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps’ Quds Force has “rightly been labeled a terrorist organization.” He used terms such as “false prophets of extremism” and “corrupt” while discussing Palestinians. And he promised that “Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided.”

    Pat Lang observed:

    As a pandering performance, it was the full Monty by a candidate who, during the primary, had positioned himself to Hillary Clinton’s left on matters such as Iran. Yesterday, Obama, who has generally declined to wear an American-flag lapel pin, wore a joint U.S.-Israeli pin, and even tried a Hebrew phrase on the crowd.”

    Today, the operative word for Obama is c**t. He went on to say that he would do:

    “anything in his power to prevent Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon, anything.”

    Anything? Anything? How about sucking Joe Lieberman’s cock on the steps of the capitol?

    I’m really disappointed in this piece of shit today.

  9. 9.

    JL

    June 5, 2008 at 10:39 am

    Josh and crew at Talking Point Memo are digging through all the details now.

  10. 10.

    Andrew

    June 5, 2008 at 10:42 am

    Tell us how you really feel, Wilfred.

  11. 11.

    El Cid

    June 5, 2008 at 10:43 am

    But… but… but… bzzzzt… McGovern 1972… but but but appeasers… bzzzzt… but but but John Bolton says Obama’s naive and dangerous… bzzzt… but but but… take the fight to them… bzzzzt…

  12. 12.

    4tehlulz

    June 5, 2008 at 10:43 am

    Awwww. Poor Wilfred’s hurt that Obama likes teh Jews.

  13. 13.

    jp

    June 5, 2008 at 10:45 am

    To answer Atrios’ question: Olberman. Keith may have his flaws (his abysmal election reporting) but he consistently points out that this war is a) a failure b)based on lies, c) continuing for the express purpose of enriching Halliburton & Cronies d)serving against our national security interests in creating more terrorists, not fewer and e) despised by the majority of Americans.

  14. 14.

    r€nato

    June 5, 2008 at 10:46 am

    well, Wilfred, you could always vote for Nader or Barr if you want to find the perfect, pure candidate.

  15. 15.

    Krista

    June 5, 2008 at 10:46 am

    Wilfred,

    Re: the c-bomb. Watch your mouth.

  16. 16.

    Wilfred

    June 5, 2008 at 10:49 am

    As usual the Israel Firsters see nothing wrong with obama effectively endorsing whatever Bush decides to do against Iran before he leaves office – anything meaning anything; as a skilled rhetorician like Obama would know.

    He went and made obeisance to the Jewish lobby instead of standing up for principle. he wouldn’t wear a flag pin because it was a hollow symbol, but for Aipac – anything. This is the first time he acted like Stepin Fetchit.

  17. 17.

    4tehlulz

    June 5, 2008 at 10:51 am

    >>This is the first time he acted like Stepin Fetchit.

    Predictable as always.

  18. 18.

    John Cole

    June 5, 2008 at 10:52 am

    He went and made obeisance to the Jewish lobby instead of standing up for principle. he wouldn’t wear a flag pin because it was a hollow symbol, but for Aipac – anything. This is the first time he acted like Stepin Fetchit.

    He has been wearing a lapel pin for multiple occasions. Christ, we aren’t turning into the National Review. here, are we?

    And saying you will do anything in your power to stop people from gaining nuclear weapons seems ok to me. Especially when applied to everyone in the world. I hope people are doing everything in their power to stop proliferation. Hell, one of the best things Obama has done is trying to secure loose nukes.

  19. 19.

    Wilfred

    June 5, 2008 at 10:55 am

    And saying you will do anything in your power to stop people from gaining nuclear weapons seems ok to me.

    So when Bush authorizes a massive strike on Iranian facilities and says it was to prevent them from getting a nuclear weapon you’ll be the first to shut up, right?

  20. 20.

    Crust

    June 5, 2008 at 10:55 am

    It’s a little late now, but shouldn’t lying the country into war be grounds for impeachment? Really, I think we should be having a public debate about this.

    I’m worried about the precedent we’re setting here that lying us into war, secretly violating clear statutes with the flimsiest arguments (e.g. FISA), etc. are tolerable. They might ultimately cost the guilty party popularity and power (though Bush was a two term president) but if the president and his administration do it, it won’t be treated as a crime. The media, Congress and the American people have implicitly sent a message to future presidencies. And I for one don’t like that message.

  21. 21.

    John Cole

    June 5, 2008 at 10:57 am

    So when Bush authorizes a massive strike on Iranian facilities and says it was to prevent them from getting a nuclear weapon you’ll be the first to shut up, right?

    Fair point.

  22. 22.

    4tehlulz

    June 5, 2008 at 10:58 am

    So when Bush authorizes a massive strike on Iranian facilities and says it was to prevent them from getting a nuclear weapon you’ll be the first to shut up, right?

    You’ll be happiest, because you’ll get to indulge in your RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE.

    Did it ever occur to you that “anything” would include actual negotiations without preconditions, or are you looking forward to RAAAAAGING over dead Iranians too much to care?

  23. 23.

    gypsy howell

    June 5, 2008 at 11:00 am

    Ummm.. hate to tell you, but us DFH’s have been right about pretty much every fucking thing since DFH’s first came onto the scene in the 1960s.

    I’d like to repeat that.

    EVERY SINGLE FUCKING THING

    So, this is not exactly a surprise to me.

    Re: AIPAC. Yeah, I had to talk mr howell off the ledge last night after seeing that. The very first thing Obama does after gaining the nomination is swear fealty to another nation because of those traitorous bastards at AIPAC? I have to keep reminding myself that while Obama is clearly head and shoulders above the rest of the pack, he’s not the progressive liberal candidate I wish we could have. But he’ll do because he’ll have to do. I’m hoping (wishfully) that he’s mouthing platitudes to AIPAC to take the anti-semitic thing off the table right off the bat. But I’m not holding my breath that our foreign policy will stop being dictated by Israeli hardliners anytime soon.

  24. 24.

    TheFountainHead

    June 5, 2008 at 11:01 am

    As usual the Israel Firsters see nothing wrong with obama effectively endorsing whatever Bush decides to do against Iran before he leaves office – anything meaning anything; as a skilled rhetorician like Obama would know.

    Yes, he would know. He would know that he said “anything” to prevent Iran from having the bomb. Something they wouldn’t be likely to achieve in his presidency (Allah willing and all that) even if they started in earnest a year ago. Not “anything” as in the Bush Administrations saber rattling for no good reason. Every piece of intelligence on Iran’s nuclear ambitions has told us they are years away from even the most basic nuclear weapons, and even further away on high-yield, accurate devices. So what the hell is the harm in going before a rabidly partisan group and telling them what they want to here to gain their support when it doesn’t cost you a goddamn dime?

  25. 25.

    wingnuts to iraq

    June 5, 2008 at 11:02 am

    We have to stay in Iraq for HONOR! Honor? What a canard.

  26. 26.

    BH-Buck

    June 5, 2008 at 11:04 am

    Crust, haven’t we learned our lesson lately that we mustn’t talk bad about any public figure lest we upset their supporters?

    We mustn’t overturn the apple cart, and all that.

    Wilfred, that applies to you too!

  27. 27.

    The Moar You Know

    June 5, 2008 at 11:06 am

    This is the first time he acted like Stepin Fetchit.

    Go ahead, call him a nigger. You’ve come 95% of the way, might as well cross the finish line in a blaze of glory.

  28. 28.

    Krista

    June 5, 2008 at 11:06 am

    I hope people are doing everything in their power to stop proliferation

    Exactly. It’s an issue that really hasn’t gotten anywhere near as much attention as it should be getting. Environmentalism has become the new big thing, with all kinds of celeb spokespeople, official and otherwise. And that’s a great thing. But you know those 20,000 or so currently active nuclear warheads in the world right now? Yeah…we might want to start thinking about those, too. And I hope that Obama’s thinking about them.

  29. 29.

    El Cid

    June 5, 2008 at 11:07 am

    By the way, can we stop suggesting that AIPAC types are actually in favor of “Israel” or “Israelis,” as opposed to a very partisan agenda of Israeli government extreme hawkishness regarding the Palestinians and other neighbors?

    These types are partisans of policies: when any Israelis believe in any other approach than perpetual lunatic hawkishness, they hate them too.

    They don’t believe in “Israel First,” any more than the Minutemen are trying to protect “America”.

  30. 30.

    AkaDad

    June 5, 2008 at 11:09 am

    It’s a little late now, but shouldn’t lying the country into war be grounds for impeachment?

    Yes, and I would add rendition, torture, spying, and outing a CIA agent to the impeachment list.

  31. 31.

    Punchy

    June 5, 2008 at 11:09 am

    As usual the Israel Firsters see nothing wrong with obama effectively endorsing whatever Bush decides to do against Iran before he leaves office – anything meaning anything;

    Christ in a strip club, Wilfred. ITS ALL TALK! This is the kind of necessary shit you MUST SAY to get Jewish voters to like you (although most are Dems anyway). It means nothing, it signifies zero, and will result in bupkis.

    Especially after Bush nukes Iran first, in September. Write that down.

  32. 32.

    Crust

    June 5, 2008 at 11:09 am

    BH-Buck:

    Crust, haven’t we learned our lesson lately that we mustn’t talk bad about any public figure lest we upset their supporters?

    I wouldn’t worry too much about upsetting the remaining Bush supporters. Laura Bush is unlikely to vote Democratic and Barney can’t vote anyway.

  33. 33.

    The Moar You Know

    June 5, 2008 at 11:11 am

    I’m hoping (wishfully) that he’s mouthing platitudes to AIPAC to take the anti-semitic thing off the table right off the bat.

    This is so obviously what’s happening that I can’t believe that anyone could think otherwise.

    Deliberately misunderstand to troll, yes. Honestly believe it, no.

  34. 34.

    Evilbeard

    June 5, 2008 at 11:20 am

    Doesn’t AIPAC only represent a very small fraction of Jewish votes and only the far right ones? Don’t the majority of American Jews oppose action against Iran? Don’t the majority of American Jews support official talks with the Palestinians?

  35. 35.

    Keith

    June 5, 2008 at 11:27 am

    So when Bush authorizes a massive strike on Iranian facilities and says it was to prevent them from getting a nuclear weapon you’ll be the first to shut up, right?

    The big difference is that Obama would exhaust the other options in “anything” that don’t involve getting people killed before the military option. Bush’s strategy tends to be to aggrevate the situation so that there is no choice but to go to war, ’cause he’s a war president.

  36. 36.

    SamFromUtah

    June 5, 2008 at 11:30 am

    But, see, they were right for the wrong reasons (BDS, anti-war peaceniks, etc.), so it doesn’t count.

    It may be even simpler than that – they were right, but they weren’t the right people. What made you one of the right people was being wrong about the war, i.e., for it.

    The only way to be right about the war back then was to be wrong about it from today’s point of view.

  37. 37.

    The Moar You Know

    June 5, 2008 at 11:32 am

    By the way, can we stop suggesting that AIPAC types are actually in favor of “Israel” or “Israelis,” as opposed to a very partisan agenda of Israeli government extreme hawkishness regarding the Palestinians and other neighbors?

    No, for the same reason we must insist that La Raza and the Aztlan folks speak for each and every Hispanic living in the United States; we’d lose our best argument for bigotry if we had to indulge in the sin of nuanced arguments.

  38. 38.

    ThymeZone

    June 5, 2008 at 11:32 am

    I guess this is part of the matrix I don’t understand. The “truth” about all this was pretty well exposed in the first six months after the war started, which means, five years ago. Nothing that has happened since has refuted the assertions we made then that the whole thing was a giant pack of lies. We didn’t have the details, but we didn’t need the details to know it was all lies.

    So here are FIVE YEARS LATER going, gee, it was all lies.

    WTF? If a supposedly free and informed society cannot process and understand information better and faster than this, then we are completely fucked. Our intelligence resource fucked us, our administration fucked us, congress fucked us, the media fucked us.

    It is time to throw away the entire paradigm here and start over. Reform the intelligence community and its relationship to the larger government. Reform the relationship between congress and the executive. Reform the information media and hold them accountable for their failures. Hold them all accountable.

    Change cannot come fast enough. Or big enough.

  39. 39.

    w vincentz

    June 5, 2008 at 11:34 am

    Keith,
    Not a “war president”. A WAR CRIMINAL.
    Bush and many in his administration should stand trial in the Hague for their crimes.
    Fuck impeachment.
    The USA set the precedent at Nuhremburg. By putting the REAL terrorists on trial, the USA will regain credibility with the other nations that share this planet.

  40. 40.

    greynoldsct00

    June 5, 2008 at 11:35 am

    The big difference is that Obama would exhaust the other options in “anything” that don’t involve getting people killed before the military option. Bush’s strategy tends to be to aggrevate the situation so that there is no choice but to go to war, ‘cause he’s a war president.

    What you said.

    Obama will not be like “Bomb First and See if There is Intelligence to Back it Up Later Bush”

  41. 41.

    SamFromUtah

    June 5, 2008 at 11:39 am

    The big difference is that Obama would exhaust the other options in “anything” that don’t involve getting people killed before the military option.

    I sure hope so. But I don’t blame people for hearing “doing anything in my power” as a dogwhistle for “bomb first and ask questions later”. That’s what it has meant, in practice, for the entire Dumbya reign. We’ll see if Obama uses it in its literal sense that includes non-blowing-shit-up activities.

  42. 42.

    TenguPhule

    June 5, 2008 at 11:42 am

    I’d just love for some Dem to take the entire report, walk over to Roberts’ desk, and as hard as humanly possible just slam the entire thing down into his crotch

    That wall idea doesn’t look so crazy anymore, now does it?

  43. 43.

    ThymeZone

    June 5, 2008 at 11:42 am

    Poor Wilfred’s hurt that Obama likes teh Jews.

    Nobody has argued for reform of US-Israel policy around here more or more strongly that I have … have they?

    But Wilfred, old buddy, you have this wrong. There are a few Third Rails in American politics, and this is one of them. Without a visible and strong commitment to protecting Israel, Obama will not get elected. He knows it, we know it, and you ought to know it.

    Go ahead and act out your agita, but the fact is, unless he satisfies that lobby’s bottomless hunger for pandering, he isn’t going anywhere, and you get McCain.

    Obama’s AIPAC appeal was well crafted and intelligent.

    So, smarten up and get a clue.

  44. 44.

    Wilfred

    June 5, 2008 at 11:43 am

    This is so obviously what’s happening that I can’t believe that anyone could think otherwise.

    Hmmm. So in order to placate a lobby that has no real power, Obama is ‘forced’ to say things he does not really believe in. One of these things amounts to tacit support for a first strike against Iran – Anything being Anything. Of course, if Bush does that we know Obama really didn’t mean anything but just had to say it.

    So he’s a liar or a panderer willing to snuff a few Iranians in order to get elected and not act like McCain. Is that it?

  45. 45.

    Andrew

    June 5, 2008 at 11:53 am

    Hmmm. So in order to placate a lobby that has no real power, Obama is ‘forced’ to say things he does not really believe in. One of these things amounts to tacit support for a first strike against Iran – Anything being Anything. Of course, if Bush does that we know Obama really didn’t mean anything but just had to say it.

    So he’s a liar or a panderer willing to snuff a few Iranians in order to get elected and not act like McCain. Is that it?

    I think almost everything in your post is wrong.

  46. 46.

    Kevin

    June 5, 2008 at 12:02 pm

    Doesn’t AIPAC only represent a very small fraction of Jewish votes and only the far right ones? Don’t the majority of American Jews oppose action against Iran? Don’t the majority of American Jews support official talks with the Palestinians?

    Yes, yes and yes.

  47. 47.

    b-psycho

    June 5, 2008 at 12:03 pm

    The day that someone running for office can tell AIPAC to fuck off without being called anti-semitic will be a glorious day. I’m guessing that Obama just felt that it’d be too much to have two Firsts in one week.

    I understand why he has to do that. Rather than make apologies for it however, that just reinforces my rejection of the whole thing. If bowing down to the Israeli right-wing is a prerequisite to gaining political power, then fuck it all.

  48. 48.

    The Moar You Know

    June 5, 2008 at 12:15 pm

    So in order to placate a lobby that has no real power

    This premise is wrong. Please formulate another argument.

    The day that someone running for office can tell AIPAC to fuck off without being called anti-semitic will be a glorious day.

    We’re not there yet.

  49. 49.

    Wilfred

    June 5, 2008 at 12:24 pm

    This premise is wrong. Please formulate another argument

    Oh, so Aipac really is as powerful as Walt and Mearsheimer et al. maintained? It must be if a Presidential candidate finds it necessary to lie to its members.

    If bowing down to the Israeli right-wing is a prerequisite to gaining political power, then fuck it all.

    Second the motion.

  50. 50.

    John S.

    June 5, 2008 at 12:25 pm

    Wilfred-

    Yes, Obama was pandering to AIPAC. He absolutely has to to get elected. That’s a sad reality.

    The difference is that if you look at Obama’s policy positions you shouldn’t have to fear him nuking Iran on behalf of Israel. Obama is not Bush in any sense, but particularly in the sense that he prefers war to diplomacy.

    Stop and think about where the rhetoric meets the road before you start venting.

    And for the record, I’m an American Jew that despises AIPAC and thinks our Israel policies are all sorts of fucked up.

  51. 51.

    ThymeZone

    June 5, 2008 at 12:28 pm

    Wilfred, if you can’t parse the difference between “I will do everything in my power to protect you” and “I will unleash all the power of the United States on Iran any time you hear a prowler” then you are not suited to be listening to this stuff in the first place.

    The former assertion is a commitment of good intent, not a commitment of the use of power. The latter is “obliterate Iran” or “Bomb bomb bomb, bomb Iran” chest beating.

    The fact that Obama knows this, and said precisely what he did, should prove to you that he knows what the hell he is doing.

  52. 52.

    chopper

    June 5, 2008 at 12:33 pm

    i do so enjoy wilfred’s wacky rants.

  53. 53.

    ThymeZone

    June 5, 2008 at 12:34 pm

    If bowing down to the Israeli right-wing is a prerequisite to gaining political power, then fuck it all.

    No, if thinking that “Change” means “change everything on day one, kick over all the furniture or else the kids in the back seat will scream and kick” then somebody just isn’t getting the reality here.

    First you change the people. Then you change the processes. That takes time, and courage, and finesse. You don’t go after a third rail on the day you get nominated, or even on the day you get elected.

    You build coalitions, you do the hard work, and you have patience. Failure to do that results in things like the Clintons’ collossal failure to get us healthcare reform.

    Get it?

  54. 54.

    chopper

    June 5, 2008 at 12:36 pm

    If bowing down to the Israeli right-wing is a prerequisite to gaining political power, then fuck it all.

    Second the motion.

    the boat to europe is that-a-way. don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

    what can i say, american christians love them some israel. any candidate who gets up in front of AIPAC and says what you would want them to say wouldn’t get more than 10% of the vote.

  55. 55.

    ThymeZone

    June 5, 2008 at 12:40 pm

    The day that someone running for office can tell AIPAC to fuck off without being called anti-semitic

    Forget anti-semitic, the day that someone running for office can tell AIPAC to just back off, and still get elected, will be a rather dramatic day.

    But that day is not on the horizon, so don’t waste any more time pining for it in the middle of a critical election year.

  56. 56.

    Tsulagi

    June 5, 2008 at 12:47 pm

    I’m really disappointed in this piece of shit today.

    Dang, Wilfred, didn’t you say just a few weeks back that if the unladylike (I’m avoiding the “b” and “c” words) Hillary “stole” the nomination from Obama you’d line up all your Muslim friends in the States to vote for McCain? Now the MUP is a “piece of shit”? Wow.

  57. 57.

    Wilfred

    June 5, 2008 at 12:48 pm

    what can i say, american christians love them some israel.

    How many Christians are in Aipac? The way to israel is paved with the lives of over 4,000 Americans and untold Iraqis – you, the rest of the Israel Firsters can find your way there over their dried out bones, asshole.

    The former assertion is a commitment of good intent, not a commitment of the use of power.

    Suit yourself. This is what Col. Pat Lang had to say about Obama’s ‘anything’ remark:

    Anything is a lot for an American president. Under the authorities still in force an American president has complete operational control of the strategic nuclear force. A launch order from him will be obeyed. Why? Easy. It would be a lawful order. An American president would not do that? How sure are you?

    I read it as a blank check to Bush.

  58. 58.

    4tehlulz

    June 5, 2008 at 12:52 pm

    Now the MUP is a “piece of shit”? Wow.

    Obama talked to Jews; that’s a high crime in Wilfred’s world.

  59. 59.

    Wilfred

    June 5, 2008 at 12:52 pm

    Now the MUP is a “piece of shit”? Wow.

    I also wrote that June 5th would tell a lot. It did. he was more belligerent and dismissive of Palestinian concerns than McCain. It killed any chances he had in Virginia and probably in Michigan, too. I thought he was different – he isn’t.

    All the people who rightly criticized Clinton for her vote on Kyl-Lieberman would do well to consider their criticism in light of Obama’s comments to Aipac.

  60. 60.

    ThymeZone

    June 5, 2008 at 1:00 pm

    This is what Col. Pat Lang had to say about Obama’s ‘anything’ remark:

    Meh. This is why we have civilian control of the military.

    Military people can’t help thinking like that.

  61. 61.

    gypsy howell

    June 5, 2008 at 1:00 pm

    What TZ said. Pick any comment in this thread.

  62. 62.

    ThymeZone

    June 5, 2008 at 1:10 pm

    What TZ said. Pick any comment in this thread.

    I have always admired the gypsies.

  63. 63.

    Chris Johnson

    June 5, 2008 at 1:20 pm

    Hang, on, hasn’t Obama also said the first thing he’d do is go over all Bush’s executive orders and rescind everything that is wrong?

    I’m going to assume that ‘anything in my power’ means firstly ‘being king and smiting countries is NOT in my power kthxbye’, and secondly I’m going to assume he’s going to do things his way, which appears to mean diplomacy first and perhaps last.

    Got link to the text of his speech, anyone?

    Is undivided Jerusalem part of Israel’s originally agreed borders or is it part of the area they’ve been conquering?

    I’m way less worried about Obama saying stuff like ‘Jerusalem must remain the capital’ and would be more worried if he laid claim to the West Bank or whatever. I suspect there’s a lot he’s not saying- and that he’s not saying it right now for very political reasons.

    Might be a ploy to grab armfuls of McCain voters right away… he can fill in the details of ‘no, we won’t smash Iran pre-emptively for you, fuck off’ later.

  64. 64.

    John S.

    June 5, 2008 at 1:20 pm

    he was more belligerent and dismissive of Palestinian concerns than McCain.

    You are insane. Really.

    It killed any chances he had in Virginia and probably in Michigan, too.

    Ok, you are absolutely batshit insane. Yeah, the huge percentage of Palestinians in VA in MI are going to throw their weight behind McCain, thereby handing him victory in those states.

    I thought he was different – he isn’t.

    Um, Obama isn’t the messiah. He’s a politician. He says what he has to say in order to get elected, but we can judge him by his record. There is nothing there to make me believe he will behave like Bush on foreign policy or simply nuke Iran for shits and giggles.

  65. 65.

    Wilfred

    June 5, 2008 at 1:30 pm

    Ok, you are absolutely batshit insane.

    So insane that the effort we made to bang out the Muslim vote in Northern Virginia for Jim Webb led the Washington Times to complain that the Muslim vote cost George Allen his seat.

    The Muslim vote in Dearborn alone will mean a lot in Michigan – a lot of it is Shia.

    But a stupid fuck like yourself would know more than me.

  66. 66.

    passerby

    June 5, 2008 at 1:32 pm

    Tim said:

    It’s sad to think that America has fallen so far as a nation that we no longer care when the President lies to our face

    The silver lining to the 8 years of a lying administration is that the voting populace now knows how casually these lies can be proffered.

    We know what the lies sound like, we know what they feel like and we know what they look like.

    I think that’s a huge reason why Obama’s candidacy has resonated so widely. We believe he is telling the truth because we know the truth when we hear it.

    Terry McCauliff appears batshit insane because he is still operating from a position of spin (=lies). It’s not so effective anymore.

    T

    [This is a cut/paste of a comment I made on Tim’s thread. I hang around Balloon Juice because, by and large, people who comment here have good bullshit meters.

    I don’t suffer fools gladly and hate to be bullshitted. We’re waking up. ]

  67. 67.

    Tony J

    June 5, 2008 at 1:41 pm

    Wilfred is right to be angry that pandering to a loud minority of GOP-supporting Jewish activists is considered acceptable and necessary in the US, especially from a candidate promising a change in the political paradigm which makes that acceptable and necessary in the first place. And this is Balloon Juice, ferfucksake, the place where people come to vent their spleen and argue themselves into sanity.

    TZ is right to point out that his anger doesn’t change the shitty political paradigm constraining the US from electing anyone who talks sense about Israel/Palestine prior to Election Day Plus, say, 90 or so. It exists, it’s shitty, and it’s going to take a long, concerted effort to change it. So suck it up and acknowledge it, because you’re not going to change it without actually getting someone who might just mean what they say about changing the way the country is run elected in the first place.

    And I’m right in thinking that what Obama said made me agree with both of them.

    But then, I don’t get to vote in your election. And I almost, almost, called for a group hug, but restrained myself.

  68. 68.

    John S.

    June 5, 2008 at 1:43 pm

    Wilfred-

    You know how I know you’re insane (aside from your posts)? You just cited the fucking Washington Times. Sheesh.

    And dumb fuck, the ‘Muslim’ vote is no more a monolithic block than the ‘Jewish’ vote.

    Dearborn has a whopping population of 100,000. How many of them are Arab? I’ll tell you – 30,000. What percentage of registered voters is that in Michigan? Not a whole lot. But keep wailing about how “significant” it is.

    And even though Obama and I both believe every vote counts, you really think that all Arab-Americans will vote for McCain – Mr. ‘Bomb Iran’ – over Obama because of his remarks to AIPAC?

    Fuck off. You’re a total joke.

  69. 69.

    b-psycho

    June 5, 2008 at 1:44 pm

    Forget anti-semitic, the day that someone running for office can tell AIPAC to just back off, and still get elected, will be a rather dramatic day.

    But that day is not on the horizon, so don’t waste any more time pining for it in the middle of a critical election year.

    Perhaps I was misunderstood. I’m not saying I’d be “yay Obama!” if he did this, I’m saying the reason he doesn’t is among the reasons I approach politics as little more than sideshow amusement until we figure out how to live without it.

    Pragmatically speaking, Obama is “less bad”. An end to the Iraq war, skepticism of the Patriot Act, & at least a semblance of hesitancy to nuke Iran are good compared to the alternative. But in the long run, I don’t think we’ll ever be safe from this kind of crap as long as the US government as we know it even exists.

  70. 70.

    4tehlulz

    June 5, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    Hey Wilfred, you should go here. I think it would be a receptive audience for your OBAMA = BUSH and OBAMA = SUCKUP NIGRA memes.

  71. 71.

    Tony J

    June 5, 2008 at 1:47 pm

    And I’m right in thinking that what Obama said made me agree with both of them.

    Though, as this goes on, I find myself agreeing less and less with Wilfy’s potty mouth. I’m pretty sure that BJ is not overwhelmed with Israel-Firsters, though memory recalls it does have a few.

  72. 72.

    Wilfred

    June 5, 2008 at 1:51 pm

    But keep wailing about how “significant” it is.

    540 votes got us Bush. Vote McCain? Maybe – how about stay home?

    Obama dropped a lot in my estimation. If he had any real balls he would have stood up on principle. He acted like a pussy – and deserves the vote of someone like you.

  73. 73.

    b-psycho

    June 5, 2008 at 1:53 pm

    So yes, ThymeZone, you directed that comment referencing Hillary and health-care reform at an anarchist.

  74. 74.

    4tehlulz

    June 5, 2008 at 1:55 pm

    Maybe – how about stay home?

    Then enjoy your dead Persians, Wilfred. You earned them.

  75. 75.

    John Cole

    June 5, 2008 at 1:59 pm

    Can we all get back to the real point of this blog, which are the following:

    1.) off color jokes
    2.) Alternating between calling me an asshole when you disagree with me and validating my ego when you do agree
    3.) off color jokes
    4.) Pointing out GOP perfidy
    5.) BSG
    6.) Getting Obama and as many Democrats elected as possible in 2008
    7.) off color jokes about BSG
    8.) Hating on George Bush
    9.) Pop Culture references

    Pretty please?

    Wilfred has some valid points, and you should listen to him. We will need those votes in the fall, and his speech may have been too aggressive. I did not interpret it as a call to Obliterate Iran, but after the past few years, I can wholly understand why he would have been upset by Obama’s speech. But please just simmer down now.

  76. 76.

    Grover Cleveland

    June 5, 2008 at 1:59 pm

    guys – trying to reason with Wilfred on this is about as useful as walking out into the street and banging your head against the curb and almost as painful.

    He thinks that the 99.9999% of the reason that the West has been so heavy-handedly engaged in the Middle East for the past century has to do with support of Israel and only 0.0001% due to the abundance of energy reserves there.

  77. 77.

    Wilfred

    June 5, 2008 at 2:15 pm

    John, You were missing something in your re-education as a Democrat but here’s a good time to start practicing it.

    Liberals love to roast Hillary for her AUMF and Kyl-Lieberman votes. It shows that THEY HATE WAR. But now that Obama has lip=locked the same asses as Hillary and McCain it’s all necessary and perfectly UNDERSTANDABLE.

    So now you have to support Obama even more because the only way to show that he is better than Hills and McCain is by being just like them. Get it? It’s all so unfortunate, but what’s a good liberal to do?

    Obama punked himself for Aipac – end of story. Ask him if he took a shower after.

  78. 78.

    croatoan

    June 5, 2008 at 2:23 pm

    Compare President Bush’s tenure with the Articles of Impeachment against Nixon that were adopted by the Senate Judiciary Committee.

    FISA was put into place specifically to prevent acts that were impeachable under the articles against Nixon. I’d say breaking laws that were designed to prevent impeachable acts is impeachable. At a minimum they should bring hearings.

  79. 79.

    passerby

    June 5, 2008 at 2:31 pm

    ’ve supported Obama as a voice of reason but his comments before AIPAC are beyond fucking belief:

    A mere 12 hours after claiming the Democratic presidential nomination, Barack Obama appeared before the American Israel Public Affairs Committee yesterday—and changed himself into an Israel hard-liner.

    Wilfred, I wouldn’t be too concerned about Obama’s AIPAC appearance. During pres. campaigns the candidates are posturing and politicking in order to obtain votes.

    He needs the Jewish vote and the stance he’s putting forth is aimed at getting that support. As president he must concern himself with the governance of all people (obviously).

    For example his stance on Cuba, I sense that he is for ending the bullshit sanctions because it’s enough already, but to garner Cuba support in FLA he postures differently.

    Additionally, true leadership is not dictatorial and Obama has stated quite rightly, the president “shapes public opinion”.

    Look how we have the tendency to think that whatever these candidates believe is automatically going to happen once they get into office.

    [Bush tried to amass power in the executive but, I think we’ll see that rolled back under an Obama presidency.]

    T

  80. 80.

    John S.

    June 5, 2008 at 2:39 pm

    I wouldn’t be too concerned about Obama’s AIPAC appearance. During pres. campaigns the candidates are posturing and politicking in order to obtain votes.

    Winner!

    Wilfred seems to have trouble grasping the fact that Candidate ______ is never the same as President ______. NEVER.

    The important thing to do is read between the lines and figure out if the rhetoric meets the road. In this case, I don’t think it does. Obama’s deeds in the Senate (Kyl-Lieberman) are far more important than his words before AIPAC.

    We would be wise to remember that.

  81. 81.

    John S.

    June 5, 2008 at 2:45 pm

    540 votes got us Bush.

    The SCOTUS gave us Bush. It had very little to do with actual votes.

  82. 82.

    JoyceH

    June 5, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    I heard Obama’s remarks completely differently. When he said he would do ‘anything’ to keep Iran from getting nukes and then repeated the word ‘anything’, the first thing that popped into my head was, ‘including what George Bush and his administration have refused to do for almost eight years, which is TALK to Iran’.

  83. 83.

    4tehlulz

    June 5, 2008 at 3:01 pm

    1.) off color jokes

    Fine…..in that spirit then:

    Obama punked himself for Aipac

    I recommend this for Obama’s campaign song.

  84. 84.

    ThymeZone

    June 5, 2008 at 3:03 pm

    Alternating between calling me an asshole when you disagree with me and validating my ego when you do agree

    Three and a half years here, and only now do I find out that these are two different things?

    Kidding. I swear.

    Wilfred has no point. Obama’s speech was quite intelligent and well fashioned, about a hundred times better than Wilfred’s estimation of that speech.

    The correct spin is what JoyceH just said a couple minutes ago.

  85. 85.

    ThymeZone

    June 5, 2008 at 3:05 pm

    off color jokes

    Sexist!

  86. 86.

    Sloegin

    June 5, 2008 at 3:07 pm

    There’s basic rules to this game.

    1. In the primaries, play to your base. You run to the center too early, you lose.

    2. In the general, run to the center, blow off your base as much as possible without pissing them off.

    3. If there’s a group that is a nexus of power in Washington and the Media, when you go and talk to them, you tell them things they like to hear.

    4. If and when you get elected, if you’re not too worried about getting re-elected, you get to do whatever the hell you want.

  87. 87.

    ThymeZone

    June 5, 2008 at 3:18 pm

    If and when you get elected, if you’re not too worried about getting re-elected, you get to do whatever the hell you want.

    Correct. You can get a hummer in the Oval, or you can gin up a war with a country that you were just recently selling weapons to, or you can build support for a dialogue with Iran from a position of strength and try to clean up the trainwreck your predecessor left you.

    There are a lot of ways to be president.

  88. 88.

    Third Eye Open

    June 5, 2008 at 3:25 pm

    Wilfred,

    Bud, I agree whole-heartedly, The political need to run to the middle on most hot-button issues during presidential races is a fairly American ideal (it has a lot to do with the nature of our Democracy, and the weight given to all things “mainstream”)

    The idea that a pol would feel the need to genuflect to the hard-line of Israel is almost antithetical to our ‘rugged individuality’ (makes you wanna ride a horse while smoking a Marlboro, dunn’t it?)

    The thing that really gets my turkey in a tangle is that we would be all over anyone on the right for this same brand of ham-fisted rhetoric, but because we “know” (wink-wink) that MUP is ‘one of us’ it’s “no worries, mate, im sure he has our best interest in mind”.

    With that said, I’ll take pander as usual from Obama any day over Mr. Straight-Talk Express.

    BTW…FUCK THE WINGS!

  89. 89.

    patroclus

    June 5, 2008 at 3:29 pm

    These are some of the biggest lies in the history of the world – I’m pleased that our government has now formally revealed them for what they were.

    Because it was the Democrats that did it, this independent will not be voting for any lying, smearing, warmongering, torture-authorizing, worldwide gulag-creating, Geneva Convention shredding, warrantless domestic eavesdropping, Katrina ignoring, Social Security destroying, gay bashing, women’s liberty destroying, cronyistic, stunningly corrupt, Justice Department-politicizing, climate change ignoring, Creationist-teaching, America’s reputation-destroying slimy Republican. Period.

  90. 90.

    ThymeZone

    June 5, 2008 at 3:30 pm

    The idea that a pol would feel the need to genuflect to the hard-line of Israel is almost antithetical to our ‘rugged individuality’ (makes you wanna ride a horse while smoking a Marlboro, dunn’t it?)

    Oh, I dunno. It beats the living fuck out of kissing the rings of the Saudi Royal Family AFAIC.

    One getsture is arguably misguided (or not, your choice), but the other is obviously nothing but bonesmoking for oil.

    Give me the pander to AIPAC over kissing the Saudis, please.

    And then we have Mister Magoo, the candidate who kisses the hand of the craphead who kisses the Saudi hand.

    Vote Obama. That’s the bottom line here.

  91. 91.

    Tsulagi

    June 5, 2008 at 3:39 pm

    The important thing to do is read between the lines and figure out if the rhetoric meets the road. In this case, I don’t think it does. Obama’s deeds in the Senate (Kyl-Lieberman) are far more important than his words before AIPAC.

    We would be wise to remember that.

    You got that right. Obama’s words were clear that he didn’t much care for Kyl-Lieberman. And obviously he was so disgusted with it, he couldn’t even bring himself to vote on the measure. Now that’s a deed.

  92. 92.

    loquacious mute

    June 5, 2008 at 3:40 pm

    Obama likes to take things off the table. AIPAC was one of them. He made his point and now onto other stuff. Bill Clinton was another. Obama made it clear, President Clinton was an asset and that he needed him on the trail. Now the pundits and media will not spend weeks distracting people with talk of what to do with Bill. Also got close to taking Hillary off the table in his interview w/ Brian Williams last night. Seems to me like he may switch it up a bit though and have her take herself off the table. How cool would that be.:::)))

    Smart guy. And he likes to read. Oh boy!

  93. 93.

    Jon H

    June 5, 2008 at 3:41 pm

    Roberts is running for re-election this year. Let’s throw some cash at his opponent.

  94. 94.

    srv

    June 5, 2008 at 3:41 pm

    Wilfred, all “progressives” are anti-semitic, that’s all the apologists want you to know. Just like anyone who hates Liebermann is.

  95. 95.

    Third Eye Open

    June 5, 2008 at 3:52 pm

    TZ,

    Look man, I’m just barely bright enough to understand the Kabuki that is being peddled here–And I am firmly in Obama’s camp. But when we don’t have the personal courage (or logical consistency) to call a pander exactly what it is, IMHO, then we have no rhetorical leg to stand on when the next, sadly inevitable, pander from the other side comes through.

    Saying that ‘he’s not as bad as the other guy’ carries about the weight of a photon with me…but that’s why im not rich, famous, or well connected. Or maybe it’s my proclivity for eating Kimchi, who knows.

  96. 96.

    Wilfred

    June 5, 2008 at 3:59 pm

    This is a non-stop laugh riot. let me summarize:

    1) Obama really didn’t mean what he said to Aipac but had to day it because anything less would be lethal in the general
    Note to self: research why it is necessary to lie to an organization that has very little real power, no matter what ant-Semites like Walt, Mearshimer et al. have said, and has almost none with American Jews, even though 53 US Senators appeared at the meeting and all three Presidential candidates spoke. This to an organization is so exaggerated that Obama has to lie to them)

    2) So Obama lied, or at least exaggerated, whereas Clinton and McCain didn’t. Of course, the people of Aipac and all the people who are influenced by them WOULD NEVER see through a cunning ruse like that. Nor would any of the people who might be influence by the as yet only theorized political power of Aipac.

    Accurate, or not?

  97. 97.

    chopper

    June 5, 2008 at 4:02 pm

    How many Christians are in Aipac?

    that’s just foolish.

    look, aipac is pretty damn powerful, but not because of ‘teh jooz’. the jewish vote is quite small in the US and jewish influence isn’t as big as all the anti-semites make it out. AIPAC is powerful because christians in america love them some israel. they do.

    there are an ass-ton of hardcore christians and also moderate ones who dig the shit out of israel and support AIPAC and most everything it stands for and if you get in front of AIPAC and give a speech written by Wilfred, pissing off the hardline jewish vote is gonna be nothing compared to the huge number of christians in america you’ll end up turning off.

    seriously, use your brain. i know you like to point at the jews as responsible for all this shit but look at the fucking demographics in this country.

    The way to israel is paved with the lives of over 4,000 Americans and untold Iraqis – you, the rest of the Israel Firsters can find your way there over their dried out bones, asshole.

    wow, what a speech. you really defined me all right, with your righteous indignation and everything. you should be on Lifetime.

  98. 98.

    Third Eye Open

    June 5, 2008 at 4:11 pm

    Chopper,

    I have more than one friend who are ‘straight down the ticket’ Dems who for some reason get a bug up their ass the moment you bring up Palestinians, one of whom is a pretty well respected professor.

    Smile, nod your head, take solace that we have a diverse set of views and that we are still alive enough to get angry about our own personal policy pet-peeves, and leave it at that.

    I’m sure Wilfred knows what is at stake this election, and while perfect may in fact be the enemy of good, its not out of the question to ask for better than good on occasion.

    P.S. FUCK THE WINGS

  99. 99.

    loquacious mute

    June 5, 2008 at 4:13 pm

    One more thing. Hamas “endorsement” off the table.

  100. 100.

    srv

    June 5, 2008 at 4:19 pm

    Obama likes to take things off the table

    Does anyone really think his performance is going to win over the Goldberg and Kristol crowd? I can already hear the response: “Barack Hussein Obama is a Manchurian candidate” who will sell out Israel.

    There’s no point to this speech unless you’re trying to send a message that “your third rail is safe with me”. If the crowd doesn’t buy it, it’ll just be John and Barack Hussein waving bigger and bigger dick-fests to fealty to AIPAC until Nov.

    Months ago, when Hillary was agreeing with McSame on Iran, people were taking that as a “green light” for Bush to bomb away. How the MUP crowd can flip-flop and say this is different isn’t telling about progessives bigotry, it’s telling that they just don’t give a f**k about the “Third Rail” and Iran.

    AIPAC is powerful because christians in america love them some israel. they do.

    Revisionism. AIPAC was a powerhouse back when every christian hated them jooz. The embrace-Israel-to-bring-apocolypse-sooner crowd is a more recent manifestation.

  101. 101.

    Wilfred

    June 5, 2008 at 4:20 pm

    pissing off the hardline jewish vote is gonna be nothing compared to the huge number of christians in america you’ll end up turning off.

    Like they were lining up to vote Democratic. Here’s what Haaretz had to say:

    “Let me be clear,” Obama said, “Israel’s security is sacrosanct. It is non-negotiable. The Palestinians need a state that is contiguous and cohesive and that allows them to prosper. But any agreement with the Palestinian people must preserve Israel’s identity as a Jewish state, with secure, recognized and defensible borders. Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided,” he added, in efforts to secure the Jewish vote.

    You’d better write to the editor and tell them it was more to attract Xians.

    The comment about Jerusalem even brought a comment from the White House – not even Bush went that far.

    Could it be that Obama is a secret, born-born again Xian?

  102. 102.

    ThymeZone

    June 5, 2008 at 4:21 pm

    But when we don’t have the personal courage (or logical consistency) to call a pander exactly what it is,

    Uh huh. I called it a pander on this thread several hours ago (see my 11:42 comment), so what is your beef?

  103. 103.

    chopper

    June 5, 2008 at 4:28 pm

    Revisionism. AIPAC was a powerhouse back when every christian hated them jooz. The embrace-Israel-to-bring-apocolypse-sooner crowd is a more recent manifestation.

    obama isn’t running for president of the past. he’s running for president of now. and now is what i’m talking about. america is a pro-israel country. you’ll never win a majority of votes in today’s america by not cuddling up to israel. aint gonna happen.

    Like they were lining up to vote Democratic.

    given how huge the christian vote is overall in this country, methinks you’re quite wrong. do you honestly think that teh jooz have more votes in this country than pro-israel christians? need i remind you that there are a fuck of a lot of pro-israel christians who vote democrat?

  104. 104.

    ThymeZone

    June 5, 2008 at 4:28 pm

    Saying that ‘he’s not as bad as the other guy’ carries about the weight of a photon with me

    Really. Well, so much for the American Experiment, because when you have to choose between A and B, sometimes in some contexts, “not as bad as the other guy” is what you are offered.

    I guess Benevolent King is your preferred government model?

  105. 105.

    chopper

    June 5, 2008 at 4:32 pm

    Really. Well, so much for the American Experiment, because when you have to choose between A and B, sometimes in some contexts, “not as bad as the other guy” is what you are offered.

    ‘sometimes’?

  106. 106.

    srv

    June 5, 2008 at 4:32 pm

    Bush cleaned house in the Navy, now he’s doing it to the AF

    Nobody in the way to Tehran now.

  107. 107.

    Wilfred

    June 5, 2008 at 4:35 pm

    so what is your beef?

    Apart from my personal disappointment with him and dislike for insincerity of any sort I think he made his first misstep – he showed weakness and insecurity.

    Who the fuck says things like: I’d do anything, anything… It sounds like a high school kid desperate to get laid. It was weak and don’t think McCain will get a week or two or more out of calling him on it. He fucked up.

  108. 108.

    Jon H

    June 5, 2008 at 4:39 pm

    “Bush cleaned house in the Navy, now he’s doing it to the AF”

    Robert Farley at LGM, who follows these sorts of things, doesn’t seem to think that’s what’s going on. Gates has had some problems with the AF brass lately, where the AF brass were doing stupid things like demanding umpty-billion dollars’ worth of F22s even after Gates made clear they weren’t going to get them.

    It might well be a clearing out of inconvenient people, but it could just be a cleaning out of asshats.

  109. 109.

    Tsulagi

    June 5, 2008 at 4:39 pm

    because christians in america love them some israel. they do.

    Yeah, but isn’t that because our evangelicals just full of Jesus’ love believe Israel must exist so Armaggedon can take place there? Then before Jesus can show up, two-thirds of the Jews must die and the other third scared shitless enough to convert to Christianity? And those that didn’t convert will roast in the fires of Hell for all eternity?

    Now that’s some tough love.

  110. 110.

    chopper

    June 5, 2008 at 4:40 pm

    from pew: (this analysis is about 2 years old)

    A substantial plurality of the American public has been steadfast in its support for Israel as the intensity of armed conflict in the Middle East has waxed and waned through the years. While Americans have on occasion voiced criticisms of specific tactics and operations undertaken by the Israeli government, their sympathy for the Jewish state has, with only minor variation, remained strong.

    the number of americans polled who side with israel vs the palestinians is around 4X. about 50% of americans overall.

    seriously, do you honestly believe that telling AIPAC to piss up a rope would only affect the miniscule ‘jewish vote’? come on, people.

  111. 111.

    ThymeZone

    June 5, 2008 at 4:42 pm

    Who the fuck says things like: I’d do anything, anything…

    Actually, if you want to carry on a rant, you at least need to get the facts right.

    What he said was “I will do everything in my power to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon.”

    “Everything in my power” is a figure of speech, of course. And keeping Iran from having a nuclear weapon is a pretty respectable goal AFAIC.

    I heard the speech, and like the audience he made the speech to, I found it pretty likeable. I think it was regrettable that he had to make it, but he did, and that’s fine.

  112. 112.

    chopper

    June 5, 2008 at 4:43 pm

    from that same link:

    As Andrew Kohut and Bruce Stokes describe in their book, America Against the World, Americans’ attitudes toward Israel appear to be influenced to no small extent by religion. In a July 2003 Pew survey, fully 44% of Americans expressed their belief that God gave the land that is now Israel to the Jewish people. In a Pew survey a year ago in August 2005, 22% of Americans said that their religious beliefs were the biggest influence in determining their support for the Jewish state. And among Americans who sympathize with Israel, one-in-three Americans said their sympathy arises from their religious beliefs.

    That religious-based support is by no means confined to — or even centered on — Americans of the Jewish faith. In the same 2003 survey, 36% of U.S. adults expressed the belief that creation of the state of Israel is a step toward the Second Coming of Jesus.

    americans are a pretty wacky bunch. but nobody, most of all someone as smart as obama, is going to go out of his way to piss off half of america’s voters. no fuckin way.

  113. 113.

    ThymeZone

    June 5, 2008 at 4:44 pm

    It sounds like a high school kid desperate to get laid.

    Yeah, I’ve heard several dozen of his speeches in their entirety, several of his debates, and numerous interviews. Barack does not sound like a kid, or desperate, ever.

    But you sound like a jackass here, man. Seriously.

  114. 114.

    chopper

    June 5, 2008 at 4:45 pm

    Yeah, but isn’t that because our evangelicals just full of Jesus’ love believe Israel must exist so Armaggedon can take place there? Then before Jesus can show up, two-thirds of the Jews must die and the other third scared shitless enough to convert to Christianity? And those that didn’t convert will roast in the fires of Hell for all eternity?

    that’s some of it. evangelicals tend to be the hardest-core of the pro-israel non-jewish voters in america. thing is, even if you subtract them there are still a lot of americans who are pro-israel. including a fuck of a lot of dems.

  115. 115.

    Third Eye Open

    June 5, 2008 at 4:45 pm

    TZ,

    My ‘Beef’ is that political reality unfortunately trumps idealism…There are no sacred cows for me, this is why I cannot ever be a federal politician. But you and I can be carelessly cloddish curmudgeons on the inter-webs all day long and still be cordial enough to have a beer and talk the finer points of America’s past-time (thats hockey, just so you know)

    Media narrative not withstanding, this was supposed to be a “transcendent” moment in American politics, this latest sprint towards the ever-moving center look slike old-hat to me. But what do I know, right?

  116. 116.

    chopper

    June 5, 2008 at 4:47 pm

    welcome to reality.

  117. 117.

    srv

    June 5, 2008 at 4:51 pm

    Gates has had some problems with the AF brass lately

    The administration that couldn’t find a SINGLE person to sack after 9/11, Katrina and Iraq is going to sack a guy for sucking up to Lockheed too much? Send me some of whatever y’all are smoking.

  118. 118.

    ThymeZone

    June 5, 2008 at 4:51 pm

    Before the speech I wandered around, speaking to a couple of dozen AIPAC attendees. What I heard was uncertainty, nervousness, anxiety–and almost none of it was based on Obama’s actual views. It was just, you know, a feeling. “I don’t trust him,” said Menachem, from Illinois. “I don’t go according to what people say. I am using my intuition.” Said Alan, “We went to lobby him last year, and he seemed, well, I don’t know. It’s his body language.” Many AIPAC’ers said Obama would talk to terrorists. Diba, from California, said: “I don’t think Obama has taken a strong stand for Israel. He is saying all the right things, but I don’t think that he means it.”

    After the speech, it was a different story. “Did he make the sale? Oh, absolutely!” said Abe. “He addressed the rumors. He spoke from the heart. For me, he settled it,” Lisa, from Michigan,said. Said Jay, from Washington, “Obama had to describe himself for this crowd. And I think he came across well. People were listening very carefully, and I think they believed him.” A young man from Los Angeles, still undecided between Obama and McCain, said: “He really made me think. He surprised me. He made the point that Israel is weaker and less safe after eight years of the Bush Administration’s policies.”

    That latter point was central to Obama’s address at AIPAC, which was interrupted numerous times by standing ovations, cheers and thunderous applause.

    Obama made a big move toward election in that speech.

    You might thank that speech when you realize that you didn’t get President Magoo in November?

    Don’t worry, I’ll remind you.

  119. 119.

    b-psycho

    June 5, 2008 at 4:52 pm

    among Americans who sympathize with Israel, one-in-three Americans said their sympathy arises from their religious beliefs.

    That kind of sympathy would be rejected by the Israelis if they knew what that really meant…

    It’s amazing that people who seriously think if Israel obtains its biblical borders Jeebus will come back and wipe out all non-christians aren’t seen as nuts and immediately dismissed. Really.

  120. 120.

    ThymeZone

    June 5, 2008 at 4:53 pm

    Media narrative not withstanding, this was supposed to be a “transcendent” moment in American politics, this latest sprint towards the ever-moving center look slike old-hat to me. But what do I know, right?

    You strike me as a reasonable person. So let’s not let perfect be the enemy of good.

    Obama is going to be the best candidate our party has put up in my lifetime, I am pretty sure. The fact that he had to kiss some AIPAC butt to get his bona fides?

    Like I said, nobody here will accuse me of being a shill for the IsraelFirst lobby. But I will take what I can get in that policy area, and right now, that’s Barack.

    Beer’s on me.

  121. 121.

    Wilfred

    June 5, 2008 at 5:05 pm

    TZ, you’re right about the ‘anything’. I went back and read the transcript and made a mistake. Even so, his tone is more aggressive than the March 2 2007 speech he made to Aipac.

    Deal with the Jerusalem question because it undermines his own stated support for Abbas. The Palestinians will never accept anything less than autonomy in East Jerusalem – if Abbas accepts that pre-condition, he’s finished.

  122. 122.

    ThymeZone

    June 5, 2008 at 5:10 pm

    The Palestinians will never accept anything less than autonomy in East Jerusalem – if Abbas accepts that pre-condition, he’s finished.

    Wilfred old buddy, those declarations from the Palestinians just give me a headache. Those people over there, Jews and Arabs both, have to decide if they really want to find peace, or have another 60 years of this crazy bullshit. If they want the bullshit, then they should go around telling people what they won’t accept. If they want peace, they should go about finding it.

    Our role should be to promote peace. How? I don’t know, I am not running for president. When I do I will publish my policy paper on that.

  123. 123.

    srv

    June 5, 2008 at 5:12 pm

    That kind of sympathy would be rejected by the Israelis if they knew what that really meant…

    Not. I’d never encountered a single Israeli before 2003 who didn’t know about it and find it humorous. They’d talk about all the evangelicals visiting the Holy Lands and what a riot they were.

    They’d laugh when I told them they didn’t really get what they were dealing with, that GW and Tom Delay were really, really, batshit crazy believers.

    But in the last couple of years, a large number of them talk about immigrating to the US. Wonder why.

  124. 124.

    loquacious mute

    June 5, 2008 at 5:20 pm

    A little something for the Palestinans, but no love from the audience.

    “advance the cause of peace” by taking steps to “ease the freedom of Palestinians, improve economic conditions” and “refrain from building settlements.”

    Perhaps Obama wanted to give both parties a little nudge. We know he knows Jerusalem is on the table and that division will be part of the plan, but perhaps he wants that to be decided by the people who are most affected by it.

    I really don’t know I’m just guessin here, but I think being the smart guy he is, he has a plan beyond what some might refer to as pandering.

  125. 125.

    Rome Again

    June 5, 2008 at 5:23 pm

    Wilfred,

    The problem is that this country has based it’s acceptance of political leaders on a 2,000+ year old book that is split in two parts; the first part speaking about how the Jew’s god is God and how everyone should bow down to him while the second part talks about how others can use the Jew’s God to make him their own and supplant the Jews from their chosen place in history.

    Any argument that uses these books to push an ideal is WRONG, BUT, it is not going to change anytime soon and the only way to get into the Presidency is to cowtow to this sort of thinking.

    The problem is the masses are deluded and that isn’t going to change anytime soon, so the only thing Obama can do to change anything is to work WITHIN that frame of logic (?) and make subtle changes after he’s clinched the presidency. If you think he can go into Aipac, call them fools and still gain the leadership of this country, you are deluding yourself.

    Why don’t you focus on how he has reshaped the financial structure of the DNC today instead? He IS reshaping this country, but it takes time. Let’s get him into the Presidency first before we expect to see major change, shall we?

  126. 126.

    4tehlulz

    June 5, 2008 at 5:30 pm

    The Palestinians need a state that is contiguous and cohesive and that allows them to prosper.

    Am I the only one who found his use of the word “cohesive” interesting in light of the slight chunk of Israeli territory between Gaza and the West Bank?

  127. 127.

    Tsulagi

    June 5, 2008 at 5:48 pm

    The administration that couldn’t find a SINGLE person to sack after 9/11, Katrina and Iraq is going to sack a guy for sucking up to Lockheed too much? Send me some of whatever y’all are smoking.

    I’m not real sure there’s a conspiracy afoot here. This CSAF wasn’t entirely popular even within AF. He pushed for toys like the F-22 and UAVs at all costs; even pushed for reduction in AF forces to pay for them. Gates wanted and directed the AF focus to be on Iraq and Afghanistan. Moseley seeing his big picture wanted to prepare for China and Russia by having the coolest toys. Also, he changed the AF dress uniform; probably about two-thirds hate the new design.

    There’s that, plus those little embarrassing incidents like loose nukes flying over the country. Taiwan ordering helicopter batteries then opening up the delivery to find nuclear fuses instead. Oops. AF has been really sloppy with the nuke stuff lately.

  128. 128.

    Rome Again

    June 5, 2008 at 5:54 pm

    Taiwan ordering helicopter batteries then opening up the delivery to find nuclear fuses instead. Oops. AF has been really sloppy with the nuke stuff lately.

    This was obviously intentional but the wrong person received the delivery.

  129. 129.

    Chris Johnson

    June 5, 2008 at 6:08 pm

    4tehlulz- I don’t think he uses a single word by mistake. I’m betting that Obama is determined to pressure Israel to make concessions that will work better for them in the long run than the hard line. Israel’s fucking crazy. That needs to come down several notches.

    Hell, ‘contiguous’ is even more of a dead giveaway that he’s not talking pure Israeli knobslobbering.

  130. 130.

    Jeff

    June 5, 2008 at 8:04 pm

    The Muslim vote in Dearborn alone will mean a lot in Michigan – a lot of it is Shia.

    This is a sign that Wilfred doesn’t know what he is talking about. I worked for a while for the State of Michigan Department of Social Services. There may be Muslims in Dearborn, but the largest Arabic population is in Detroit — it has the largest Arabic population in the US (I think it’s the largest outside the Middle East). The state forms had to be in English, Spanish and Arabic (I think there may have beenn other languages, but Arabic posed the biggest technical problem).

    Ifv you can’t tell Dearborn from Detroit, you save no credibility talking about how Michigan will vote in the General.

  131. 131.

    Wilfred

    June 5, 2008 at 8:24 pm

    Ifv you can’t tell Dearborn from Detroit, you save no credibility talking about how Michigan will vote in the General.

    Tell you what, office boy. I can translate what Obama said into serviceable Arabic, embellish it with a few rehtorical flourishes and have it posted in every masjid in Michigan inside of a week. In fact, I’m going to do just that.

  132. 132.

    4tehlulz

    June 5, 2008 at 8:32 pm

    >>embellish it with a few rehtorical flourishes

    So that’s what the kids call “lying” nowadays…

  133. 133.

    Liberal Masochist

    June 5, 2008 at 8:50 pm

    I leave work, go to the gym and hours later Wilfred is pounding still his pud about Israel and Obama’s speech to AIPAC…. The more things change….

    And wowee, he is going to tell the Muslim residents of Michigan about Obama’s speech because you know, they don’t have TV or radios or computers or minds of their own to read and digest this stuff on their own… What a tool.

  134. 134.

    TenguPhule

    June 5, 2008 at 11:17 pm

    I can translate what Obama said into serviceable Arabic, embellish it with a few rehtorical flourishes and have it posted in every masjid in Michigan inside of a week. In fact, I’m going to do just that.

    Thank you Wilfred. Be sure to be as public and loud about your posts as possible. Keep bringing those votes to Obama.

    There is a choice.

    Vote Obama.

    Or vote for the Insane WASP who will cheerfully kill the Persians for teh base.

    With Enemies like Wilfred, Israel doesn’t need to worry a lot.

  135. 135.

    TenguPhule

    June 5, 2008 at 11:21 pm

    The Muslim vote in Dearborn alone will mean a lot in Michigan – a lot of it is Shia.

    And if it votes for McCain, they deserve what they’ll get.

  136. 136.

    Pelikan

    June 5, 2008 at 11:51 pm

    Hey, this is way at the end of the thread, but that’s really where the out-of-the-box thinking should come in anyhoo…

    I don’t really get religion as a whole, but why don’t we just spend a few billion to dig up Isreal, Wailing wall, dome, dirt and all, and cart it off to Idaho, where I understand there is a surplus of empty space.
    We dump all of that dirt there, buy all of the Israelis plane tickets, and bam! Problem solved!
    The Israelis have their holy land, the Palestinians get to inherit the remaining lot (an improvement, frankly) our Aid to Israel shirinks dramatically, and some racist militias in Idaho get a big suprise… What would be the downside to this plan?

    Aside: I tried this out with my brother’s Very Orthodox Girlfriend, now she hates me, apparently the location of the dirt is somehow important.

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