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You are here: Home / Past Elections / Election 2008 / Bad Press

Bad Press

by John Cole|  June 23, 200810:34 am| 107 Comments

This post is in: Election 2008

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If I were a former Clinton supporter, I would be pretty pissed about this piece in Salon by Rebecca Trasiter titled Why Clinton voters say they won’t support Obama:

But why do you keep hearing all these stories about grumpy old ladies still hung up on Hillary Clinton, the ones who’re threatening to make a scene at the Democratic convention in Denver, or vote for John McCain in November?

To be fair, it’s not just women. There are plenty of Clinton supporters of every demographic description who are still ticked. But yes, it’s true that the Clinton base skewed female, and that women over 30 are the most vocal of the malcontents. Some of them are calling themselves “PUMAs” (as in “Party Unity My Ass”), an acronym that makes them sound, appropriately enough, like cougars in a very bad mood. Who are these women, and why are they such buzzkills?

She then goes on to list twelve reasons starting with “They are angry because their candidate lost a close contest” and “They are angry because their historic opportunity is over.” But the anger does not stop there. We are also informed they are mad at the media. They are mad at Howard Dean. They are angry Bill Clinton, and Mark Penn. Somewhere down the list, we are informed they are mad at Obama, but we really are not told why, other than the “You are likable enough remark” from the debate.

The article portrays them in a pretty negative light- petty, childish, immature, vengeful, and simply poised to throw away their vote out of spite. Nowhere on the list is any anger over a real issue- just perceived slights and seething rage at someone, anyone. I really can not imagine that Clinton supporters are going to enjoy this piece.

*** Update ***

More support for the belief that the Democratic party is filled with spineless wimps here. Personally, I came to the party pre-disillusioned, so maybe it just doesn’t hit me as hard.

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Reader Interactions

107Comments

  1. 1.

    nightjar

    June 23, 2008 at 10:43 am

    Gosh, how could any rational person write such an obvious distortion of the truth. Quite frankly, I don’t know what the world is coming to.

  2. 2.

    Zifnab

    June 23, 2008 at 10:45 am

    The article portrays them in a pretty negative light, as petty, childish, immature, and vengeful, and simply poised to throw away their vote out of spite. Nowhere on the list is any anger over a real issue- just perceived slights and seething rage at someone, anyone.

    Proving beyond a reasonable doubt that DEMOCRATS ARE WORSE!

  3. 3.

    Notorious P.A.T.

    June 23, 2008 at 10:49 am

    The truth is an absolute defense.

    No, it is not flattering to Hillary’s hard-core supporters. They could easily have prevented that by not being such whiny, vengeful narcissists. What else is a post-primary wrap-up supposed to write? That they’re mad because Pluto isn’t in the house of Mars? No one put a gun to their heads and forced them to call Obama “an inadequate black man”.

    They are angry at Bill Clinton, and Mark Penn.

    Who, I suppose, fell down from the skies into Hillary’s campaign and there was nothing she could do about it.

  4. 4.

    dnA

    June 23, 2008 at 10:51 am

    Salon is really intent on eliminating any appeal that feminism might have to anyone who is not over the age of 30 or “racially resentful” of black people in general and Barack Obama in particular. How many articles have they published trying to rationalize a resistance to Barack Obama that has nothing to do with policy, or even reason, but are merely a stuttering echo of Elizabeth Cady Stanton’s opposition to the 14th and 15th Amendments because she was offended “Sambo” might get the vote before cultured middle class white women.

    Of course Stanton had a reason to be pissed, as women were being denied basic civil rights. In this case, the Joan Walsh crew is just mad that “Sambo” won fair and square.

    Meanwhile, Michelle Obama gets a racially tinged version of the same media mysogyny fest that greeted Hillary Clinton, and the sisterhood stays silent in response.

    In the end, Michelle Obama counts as a woman to these so called “feminists” as much as Virginia or Minnesota counted to Mark Penn.

    Fuck Salon.

  5. 5.

    Balconesfault

    June 23, 2008 at 10:52 am

    Well, anyone who watched the video after the rules meeting

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KACQuZVAE3s

    didn’t exactly come away with the impression that “petty, childish, immature, and vengeful, and simply poised to throw away their vote out of spite” was pretty spot on.

    Amusing about the PUMA/Couger thing. I was wondering about that myself. But shouldn’t a couger be attracted to the still youngish-looking Obama?

  6. 6.

    Incertus

    June 23, 2008 at 10:55 am

    Here’s the real problem with the piece, and I didn’t even have to get to the 12 reasons:

    But why do you keep hearing all these stories about grumpy old ladies still hung up on Hillary Clinton, the ones who’re threatening to make a scene at the Democratic convention in Denver, or vote for John McCain in November?

    The answer to that question is simple–the press is vested in making this a close race, and they can’t do that without pushing a storyline about Democratic party disunity. Otherwise Obama wins 45 states. But the polling shows that Clinton supporters have already pretty much come home, so Traister’s article is based on a false premise–that there’s a significant number of Clinton supporters who wont vote for Obama.

  7. 7.

    D. Mason

    June 23, 2008 at 10:59 am

    Clearly this was written by an Obamanation shill.

    /Clintonista

  8. 8.

    LanceThruster

    June 23, 2008 at 11:01 am

    Kind of shows the folly of gearing one’s campaign exclusively to try to woo disgruntled or swing voters. Give them a chance to see reason or save face; after that…f*ck ’em.

    Heard Constitutional lawyer Stephen Rhode on Pacifica radio this morning, and I laughed when he described his 2008 election button.

    It says, “It’s the Supreme Court, Stupid!”

  9. 9.

    ThymeZone

    June 23, 2008 at 11:05 am

    Hear them roar.

  10. 10.

    Punchy

    June 23, 2008 at 11:06 am

    women over 30 are the most vocal of the malcontents. Some of them are calling themselves “PUMAs” (as in “Party Unity My Ass”), an acronym that makes them sound, appropriately enough, like cougars

    At least the bolded part seems about right.

  11. 11.

    Narcissus

    June 23, 2008 at 11:07 am

    There are Hillary supporters who fall right into that categorization, and we all know where to find them, but I think the majority probably do not. They’re simply a lot quieter.

  12. 12.

    DFD

    June 23, 2008 at 11:08 am

    Reason #324 Why Joan Walsh is a tool and I’ve stopped reading Salon.

  13. 13.

    jake

    June 23, 2008 at 11:08 am

    PUMAs are not at all like Black Panthers.

    Oops, I’m wearing my tin-foil hat.

    You know who else has a vested interest in various minority groups duking it out?

    Whitey.

    Sorry. This hat won’t come off.

  14. 14.

    north_aufzoo

    June 23, 2008 at 11:12 am

    With the strategic placement of one or two commas, PUMAs could be an organization that I could, um, get behind…

  15. 15.

    tofubo

    June 23, 2008 at 11:18 am

    ot

    update on a topic you had back a while ago

    http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breaking_news/story/577409.html

  16. 16.

    Dork

    June 23, 2008 at 11:18 am

    This is horrible news for Bob Barr supporters.

  17. 17.

    John S.

    June 23, 2008 at 11:19 am

    At least the bolded part seems about right.

    Maybe to Canadians.

    I haven’t heard of attractive young women described as ‘cougars’ by anyone south of Canuckistan.

  18. 18.

    Dreggas

    June 23, 2008 at 11:20 am

    Heh…indeed.

  19. 19.

    ThymeZone

    June 23, 2008 at 11:21 am

    the press is vested in making this a close race, and they can’t do that without pushing a storyline about Democratic party disunity

    Probably the most important comment made here in recent times.

    Bingo, snap, and Fukyeah.

    The fact that the press is a high-dollar industry, and has a vested interest in churn, is probably the single most important driver in the dysfunctional trianwreck that is the MSM. And for that matter, the blog world …. it’s all about eyeballs there, too. Without eyeballs, they die.

    Without churn, the eyes look away. Your tv has a couple hundred channels competing for your attention.

    If you want to see what a stream like that looks like without the constant carnie-barking for your attention, leave it on C-SPAN for a month or so.

    Or, to compare and contrast, flip back and forth between C-SPAN and Wolf Blitzer. Wolf’s entire act is “Hey, listen to me!” His copy, his language, his tone of voice, all bark it at you every minute.

    “New poll shows Obama leading by 40 points, but can this lead be sustained in the face of new questions about Reverend Wright? The answer after these messages ….”

  20. 20.

    Grumpy Code Monkey

    June 23, 2008 at 11:30 am

    Aside from the comics, the only things worth reading in Salon anymore are Leonard’s “How the World Works”, Smith’s “Ask the Pilot”, Kaufman’s sports column, and Glenzilla. Walsh has pretty much destroyed everything else.

  21. 21.

    Dennis - SGMM

    June 23, 2008 at 11:30 am

    “New poll shows Obama leading by 40 points, but can this lead be sustained in the face of new questions about Reverend Wright? The answer after these messages ….”

    Heh! Here’s mine:
    “After being elected president by only five percentage points can Obama really be said to be president of all the people? I’ll turn to my guest, Richard Viguerie, for the answer after the break.”

  22. 22.

    Todd Pearson

    June 23, 2008 at 11:31 am

    Until this past weekend, I did not think that I knew personally anyone who fits the definition of an angry Clinton supporter. My brother and sister-in-law, political junkies and hard-core Democrats, came to town for a family reunion. I said to them something to the effect of “you folks must be enthused this election cycle.” My sister-in-law, who historically has always jumped at the chance to discuss anything political, got up and walked away. My brother told me that she continues to seethe about the media coverage of Hillary, with the cackle and pants-suit references at the top of the list of objectionable coverage. There is clearly the feeling that the media went out of its way to coronate Obama as soon as possible and to denigrate Hillary in the process. I also sense that deep disappointment over the missed historical opportunity plays a big part in the anger. Anyway, as of last Friday, I thought that this whole angry-Clinton-supporter storyline was exaggerated. I don’t think that anymore.

  23. 23.

    rob!

    June 23, 2008 at 11:32 am

    Of course, those surprised by Olbermann’s clear distaste for Hillary Clinton…Olbermann’s simultaneous tenacity on the side of good, coupled with his utter disinterest in gender equity, makes him emblematic of the unpleasant position in which Hillary-supporting feminists find themselves — members of a progressive party that doesn’t seem particularly interested in their progress.

    is there a different Keith Olbermann on TV then the one i watch? because for months, he was gushingly, fawningly pro-Hillary, so much so i stopped watching the show for a few weeks, i couldn’t stand it.

    he himself even mentioned that, on one of the primary nights. i don’t remember which one, but Obama had won big and everyone on the panel was saying how he’s going to go all the way, etc. it was Olbermann who was twisting himself into knots trying to find a way to do the old THIS IS GREAT NEWS!! FOR HILLARY!! bit, and he copped to it near the end of the night.

    but over time, he got more critical of Hillary, and then at some point obviously “switched sides.”

    one of the things that so pisses me off about rabid Hillary people is they ignore all reality before a point of their choosing. the media for ALL OF 2007 went on and on that Hillary had this wrapped up, a slam dunk, everyone else don’t even bother to show up. she’s invincible.

    once it was shown in Iowa she wasn’t, the media, predictably, turned on her, because her #1 argument–“I’m invincible” was shown to be a fraud.

    but Hillary supporters don’t want to hear, think, or read about 2007, they just want to focus on the random comments b idiots like Tucker Carlson as the proof of some Vast Conspiracy to Keep Women Down.

    give me a fucking break.

  24. 24.

    Svensker

    June 23, 2008 at 11:34 am

    women over 30 are the most vocal of the malcontents

    And I always though P.Luk was a guy. Oh well.

  25. 25.

    rob!

    June 23, 2008 at 11:34 am

    oh, and would someone

    utter disinterest in gender equity

    …go so far out of his way to promote Rachel Maddow. he has her on the show all the time, she subbed for him, and he even touted the high ratings her guest-spot got after he came back.

    i guess, if you don’t like one woman, you don’t like ’em all. jesus, what will my girlfriend, my mom, my sister, and scarlet johansen think of me now??

  26. 26.

    Dennis - SGMM

    June 23, 2008 at 11:38 am

    …Hillary-supporting feminists…

    I for one have been impressed by the way that feminists have rallied to the side of Michelle Obama.

  27. 27.

    ThymeZone

    June 23, 2008 at 11:39 am

    go so far out of his way to promote Rachel Maddow.

    Rachel Maddow is terrific, but can this terrifiness be sustained in the face of new questions about her lesbianish gayitude?

    Nothing is for real until it has been vetted against new unanswered questions.

  28. 28.

    jake

    June 23, 2008 at 11:39 am

    I really can not imagine that Clinton supporters are going to enjoy this piece.

    Only if you assume that all Clinton supporters will identify with the cranks in the article. Sexist!

  29. 29.

    Dreggas

    June 23, 2008 at 11:40 am

    Dennis – SGMM Says:

    Heh! Here’s mine:
    “After being elected president by only five percentage points winning 49 of 50 states can Obama really be said to be president of all the people? I’ll turn to my guest, Richard Viguerie, for the answer after the break.”

    Fixed.

  30. 30.

    Doug H. (Fausto no more)

    June 23, 2008 at 11:40 am

    I really can not imagine that Clinton supporters are going to enjoy this piece.

    Haven’t been to Shakes’ comment section recently?

  31. 31.

    Rosali

    June 23, 2008 at 11:43 am

    Seems like the writer had trouble meeting a deadline because the piece is dated by about 2 weeks. I’d say that since then, the prevailing sentiment has been pro-party unity.

  32. 32.

    Dennis - SGMM

    June 23, 2008 at 11:43 am

    I can’t say why but this article has to be a slap in the face® to Hillary Clinton.

  33. 33.

    Dreggas

    June 23, 2008 at 11:46 am

    Dennis – SGMM Says:

    …Hillary-supporting feminists…

    I for one have been impressed by the way that feminists have rallied to the side of Michelle Obama.

    Same here. I mean they really rallied to her side against the pure crap like “baby daddy” on fox and such. I was really touched. Oh wait…that didn’t happen but of course mentioning Hillary’s pant suit was just beyond the pale….oh wait that’s it it has to do with being pale….

  34. 34.

    over_educated

    June 23, 2008 at 11:49 am

    This thread needs some myiq and p.luk love explaining to us why this is the end for Obama unless we don’t offer to perform sexual favors for all disgruntled Clinton supporters.

  35. 35.

    Breschau

    June 23, 2008 at 11:51 am

    I’m still trying to understand the total lack of self-awareness that allows someone to write the following two concepts in the same article:

    In a New York Times story last week, members of the media heartily denied that there was any sexism in the way that Clinton was discussed. This in the face of zillions of examples of gender-fueled language both explicit […] and only slightly more subtle […].

    …and…

    But for some, there is lingering sting — about the paucity of women in Obama’s top advisory team during the campaign, about the way they feel the Obama campaign stained Clinton’s supporters — and Clinton and her husband too — as racists

    So, point A is: they’re angry because of the “zillions of examples” of sexism and mysogeny. But point B is: they’re angry because they got sick of perceived accusations of preferring Hillary only because they were racist.

    “All criticisms of Hillary are sexist.”

    “How dare you accuse me of racism?”

    The sad part is, I do feel that the more rabid Hillbots really can hold both of those thoughts in their head at the same time.

  36. 36.

    NewUnansweredQuestions

    June 23, 2008 at 11:51 am

    New unanswers, and more from the Lafferty File, after these messages.

  37. 37.

    John Cole

    June 23, 2008 at 11:51 am

    Rachel Maddow is terrific, but can this terrifiness be sustained in the face of new questions about her lesbianish gayitude?

    Is Rachel a lesbian? I never really thought about it, to be honest. I know she is very supportive of gay rights, but then again, so am I and I am not gay. Weird.

    Sometimes I really am one of the most unobservant bastards ever.

  38. 38.

    NewUnansweredQuestions

    June 23, 2008 at 11:53 am

    this is the end for Obama unless we don’t offer to perform sexual favors for all disgruntled Clinton supporters.

    Well, for some. But surely not all?

  39. 39.

    Dreggas

    June 23, 2008 at 11:54 am

    John Cole Says:

    Rachel Maddow is terrific, but can this terrifiness be sustained in the face of new questions about her lesbianish gayitude?

    Is Rachel a lesbian? I never really thought about it, to be honest. I know she is very supportive of gay rights, but then again, so am I and I am not gay. Weird.

    Sometimes I really am one of the most unobservant bastards ever.

    Yes she is, you obviously do not have the requisite gaydar to pick up on it, not your fault, you’re str8.

  40. 40.

    Dennis - SGMM

    June 23, 2008 at 11:55 am

    But for some, there is lingering sting—about the paucity of women in Obama’s top advisory team during the campaign…

    Mark Penn, Terry McAuliffe and Howard Wolfson are women? I gotta’ buy a new TV set.

  41. 41.

    myiq2xu

    June 23, 2008 at 11:56 am

    This thread needs some myiq and p.luk love explaining to us why this is the end for Obama unless we don’t offer to perform sexual favors for all disgruntled Clinton supporters.

    I’m here, lurking. I was surprised at John’s post, but correctly predicted the comment thread.

  42. 42.

    John Cole

    June 23, 2008 at 11:56 am

    Same here. I mean they really rallied to her side against the pure crap like “baby daddy” on fox and such. I was really touched. Oh wait…that didn’t happen but of course mentioning Hillary’s pant suit was just beyond the pale….oh wait that’s it it has to do with being pale….

    Hunh? There was a huge outcry over the Baby Mama stuff. If I remember correctly, even the diehards Clinton supporters at Corrente talked about it.

  43. 43.

    NewUnansweredQuestions

    June 23, 2008 at 11:58 am

    Is Rachel a lesbian?

    Yes, she is pretty visible in that community.

    She lives in Manhattan and Cummington, Massachusetts, with her partner of many years, Susan Mikula. [6]

    –wikipedia

    I think she’s the smartest pundit on tv. I like Keith, and enjoy his theatrics, but for pure smarts, Rachel is my fave.

  44. 44.

    Dreggas

    June 23, 2008 at 12:00 pm

    John Cole Says:

    Same here. I mean they really rallied to her side against the pure crap like “baby daddy” on fox and such. I was really touched. Oh wait…that didn’t happen but of course mentioning Hillary’s pant suit was just beyond the pale….oh wait that’s it it has to do with being pale….

    Hunh? There was a huge outcry over the Baby Mama stuff. If I remember correctly, even the diehards Clinton supporters at Corrente talked about it.

    I must have missed that, I was more interested in the some of the more prominent talking heads that were so incensed over the “pimping” comments or those going on about how poor Hillary had to deal with “cleavage” comments. Granted on GOS there was a pretty big outcry but the attacks on MO have been going on for quite some time and not much was said, hell a lot of those attacks were promoted by the die-hards.

  45. 45.

    tim

    June 23, 2008 at 12:01 pm

    Regarding your recent birthday, John, I had no idea you were so young.

    As a latecomer to this blog, post-your political awakening as it were, somewhere along the line I picked up the idea you were in your mid to late forties.

    Unfortunately, your actual age means you are a bonafide CHICKEN HAWK, given your youth and vitality at the time of your support for GWB’s first stolen assumption of the throne and then his glorious war and then your support of his SECOND stolen election.

    Lovely.

    So all these years you could have been fighting the good fight for your deeply held convictions in Afghanistan and especially in Iraq, you’ve been sitting on your youngish ass, safe in the states, blogging, getting drunk a lot, and even after your alleged political revelations, calling lots of people much smarter than you are “morons.”

    Nice.

    It’s just astounding to me that folks like you and Andrew Sullivan continue to have any credibility and standing at all, and that anyone takes you seriously, after all the profound matters about which you’ve been gravely mistaken and the vitriolic, acidic style in which you attacked your poltical/sociological opponents.

    Yet…there it is. The fact that you and Andy enjoy any standing at all in American political discourse, especially among left-ish blogistan, is a good indicator of what it is that is truly wrong with U.S. society: MOST American voters really ARE uninformed, willfully stupid morons with absolutely no awareness of perspective or even recent history.

    You seem like a nice enough guy…just deeply fucked up in the personal responsibility/self-awareness department.

    There’s still time to sign up for miltary service, and to take part in your wars. The services are taking 40 year olds now.

    All best on your coming military adventures.

    Tim

  46. 46.

    jnfr

    June 23, 2008 at 12:01 pm

    Any feminist who votes for John McCain must be certifiable.

  47. 47.

    Luke

    June 23, 2008 at 12:01 pm

    First of all, Free Dahlia Lithwick!

    Other than that, this, in combination with the Gabfest, has put me off Slate pretty much permanently. I’m amazed that they thought it’d be a good idea to publish this.

    As to the people who think there’s a lot of these Clinton folks, I say, it may not be the Hunting of the Snark, but for these people to matter, they have to occur in about 11 or so swing states in really really big numbers. So, they can go puma in the corner, but, no dice. Most of Clinton’s vaunted 17 million will come home, in the end.

    Because:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G29pjwHv8ro&eurl=http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

    And John McCain hates your reproductive freedoms.

  48. 48.

    Ron Chusid

    June 23, 2008 at 12:02 pm

    I wonder to what degree this list really represents the views of many people. There are certainly are some Clinton supporters making noise on line about opposing Obama, often with weak reasons, but they might not represent the views of very many people.

    Going by the people I know personally (as opposed to online rants) might provide too small a sample size to be meaningful, but I’m finding that all the women I know who supported Clinton are now firmly backing Obama. They might preface it by saying he wasn’t their first choice, but they are definitely for Obama as opposed to McCain. While again this is a small sample, I suspect it is far more characteristic of people who voted for Clinton as opposed to the views expressed in the Salon article.

  49. 49.

    jibeaux

    June 23, 2008 at 12:06 pm

    As a latecomer to this blog

    Perhaps you should stay a little longer and learn about things such as John’s military service…

  50. 50.

    The Other Steve

    June 23, 2008 at 12:08 pm

    Hillary who?

  51. 51.

    NewUnansweredQuestions

    June 23, 2008 at 12:08 pm

    Any feminist person who knows that the earth is not 6000 years old, and who votes for John McCain, must be certifiable. As opposed to just plain fuckall stupid.

    More unanswers, after these unmessages.

  52. 52.

    srv

    June 23, 2008 at 12:10 pm

    tim Says:

    I’m an idiot and I am unaware of all Balloon-Juice traditions over the last 6 years.

    timmeh, JC was in Gulf War I and he joined the hippy crowd in 2005 or so. Been pretty boring since.

  53. 53.

    jibeaux

    June 23, 2008 at 12:14 pm

    Back on topic, it is absolutely an overblown media narrative and the polls bear this out. Women, among our many other charming qualities, are loyal Democrats.

    One of the most interesting trends, I think from Gallup polling, although I can’t find it right now, was that age-wise, McCain’s support peaks in the 60 to 69 year olds. Folks in their 70s, then even more in the 80+, still support MCcain, but by a narrower margin and for the 80+ folks, it was nearly tied. I just thought that was fascinating, and encouraging. If people who grew up with segregated schools can vote for Obama, by George the Hillary deadenders can too.

  54. 54.

    handy

    June 23, 2008 at 12:15 pm

    Dear tim

    perfect is the enemy of the good. That is all.

  55. 55.

    Mr Furious

    June 23, 2008 at 12:17 pm

    I really can not imagine that Clinton supporters are going to enjoy this piece.

    Why, ’cause the truth hurts?

  56. 56.

    NewUnansweredQuestions

    June 23, 2008 at 12:17 pm

    If people who grew up with segregated schools can vote for Obama, by George the Hillary deadenders can too.

    Made me think. I went to 3 schools between K and 12.

    Two elementary, and one high school. For scale, my high school had a student body of about 2500.

    To my knowledge, there was not a single black kid in any of those schools while I attended.

    Nor a black teacher.

  57. 57.

    Crusty Dem

    June 23, 2008 at 12:20 pm

    Is there some kind of remedial troll-training we can give tim? His post clearly resembles the english language in the words that are there, but I can’t detect anything resembling rational thought in the content. Is his post some sort of Turing test gone wrong? I’m honestly baffled.

    Shorter tim:

    110100100011101010001.

  58. 58.

    NewUnansweredQuestions

    June 23, 2008 at 12:22 pm

    All best on your coming military adventures.

    Without doubt, the most embarrassing post ever on this blog.

    Even drunk, I could never anything that stupid.

  59. 59.

    orogeny

    June 23, 2008 at 12:25 pm

    I just was to say that on Friday I posted something in anger that I didn’t really mean. I said something to the effect “Fuck it, I’m voting for Barr.” That was nothing but hyperbole…I’ll be voting for Obama. But, I’m still thoroughly disgusted with the way he and the majority of the House Dems have handled and spoken about the FISA issue. It’s been a long time since I’ve really voted for someone rather than against, and this is beginning to look like one of those “against” elections.

    On another topic…calling John a “chicken-hawk” is pretty ignorant. Seems like you ought to find out a little bit about the person you’re talking about before you start tossing out insults like that.

  60. 60.

    jibeaux

    June 23, 2008 at 12:25 pm

    I could never anything

    You’re drunk right now, aren’t you? :)

  61. 61.

    Dreggas

    June 23, 2008 at 12:27 pm

    shorter tim:

    I’m a lazy bastard unwilling or unable to search the blog history or teh google therefore I will construct a post loaded with name calling and making assertions (aka writing checks my ass can’t catch) while sticking my nose up into the air so I am able to more properly inhale my own smug.

  62. 62.

    mantis

    June 23, 2008 at 12:30 pm

    John, according to Armando, you have a well established tin ear on the issues of sexism and misogyny. Just thought you might like to know. Oh, by the way, he’s speaking for him only, in case you thought he was speaking on behalf of Mormon Tabernacle Choir or The Invisibles or something (since we all assume that every blog post on the intertrons is official advocacy of some group, naturally).

  63. 63.

    Dreggas

    June 23, 2008 at 12:31 pm

    orogeny Says:

    I just was to say that on Friday I posted something in anger that I didn’t really mean. I said something to the effect “Fuck it, I’m voting for Barr.” That was nothing but hyperbole…I’ll be voting for Obama. But, I’m still thoroughly disgusted with the way he and the majority of the House Dems have handled and spoken about the FISA issue. It’s been a long time since I’ve really voted for someone rather than against, and this is beginning to look like one of those “against” elections.

    Still a “for” vote here, FISA is a big deal but this bill getting signed is even more reason to vote for Obama despite his cagey support of it (in that he does not support it with regard to immunity and has said he will support Dodd and Feingold’s threats to filibuster. This FISA bill has been tossed back and forth like a hot potato time and again and I am beginning to think that’s the dem strategy. Toss it back and forth changing it so it’s no longer appealing to one chamber or the other while running out the clock.

  64. 64.

    Balconesfault

    June 23, 2008 at 12:31 pm

    Yes she (Rachael Maddow) is, you obviously do not have the requisite gaydar to pick up on it, not your fault, you’re str8.

    Gaydar … such as listening to her show, and hearing her repeatedly refer to her lesbian life partner? Or tell certain guy reporters that if she weren’t gay she’d have a major crush on them?

    Real subtle stuff!

  65. 65.

    4tehlulz

    June 23, 2008 at 12:33 pm

    I nominate tim for FAIL TROLL of the year.

    Congratulations, tim.

  66. 66.

    Dreggas

    June 23, 2008 at 12:34 pm

    Balconesfault Says:

    Yes she (Rachael Maddow) is, you obviously do not have the requisite gaydar to pick up on it, not your fault, you’re str8.

    Gaydar … such as listening to her show, and hearing her repeatedly refer to her lesbian life partner? Or tell certain guy reporters that if she weren’t gay she’d have a major crush on them?

    Real subtle stuff!

    I am talking about those who haven’t listened to her show and only seen her briefly on Countdown. -.-

  67. 67.

    srv

    June 23, 2008 at 12:36 pm

    orogeny, you’re still a Clinton-troll regardless of who you actually vote for. Perhaps Soj will provide an exhaustive list of Hilbot troll-conditions some point, it will have to be several pages long.

    Me, I think it was FISA that killed George, so I’m pissed and will be writing him in.

  68. 68.

    J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford

    June 23, 2008 at 12:36 pm

    John Cole Says:

    Is Rachel a lesbian? I never really thought about it, to be honest. I know she is very supportive of gay rights, but then again, so am I and I am not gay. Weird.

    Sometimes I really am one of the most unobservant bastards ever.

    June 23rd, 2008 at 11:51 am

    Center-Right Lefty Blogger John Cole says that he is “not gay” but a conservative commenter at his site claims to have used drugs and had a sexual relationship with him. We’ll hear the details from the accuser after these messages…

  69. 69.

    orogeny

    June 23, 2008 at 12:38 pm

    I guess what really drives me crazy is that Obama seems to have taken the line that the Dems have been working under for years…the American people are just too sensitive or stupid or reactionary or whatever for a politician to tell them the truth. Repubs may be batshit crazy, but they’re not afraid to stand on principle. Would it really have cost Obama substantial support if instead of praising the bill (with a sop thrown to those who oppose immunity), he had said that the FISA bill is flawed, that it tramples on our 4th amendment rights and that there are ways to defend the country from terrorism without surrendering our constitutional rights?

  70. 70.

    srv

    June 23, 2008 at 12:39 pm

    you have a well established tin ear on the issues of sexism and misogyny.

    The John Coles of the Obama blogosphere are all misogynists.

  71. 71.

    Neal

    June 23, 2008 at 12:41 pm

    Damn, Tim, you’re a piece of shit.

  72. 72.

    John Cole

    June 23, 2008 at 12:41 pm

    John, according to Armando, you have a well established tin ear on the issues of sexism and misogyny. Just thought you might like to know. Oh, by the way, he’s speaking for him only, in case you thought he was speaking on behalf of Mormon Tabernacle Choir or The Invisibles or something (since we all assume that every blog post on the intertrons is official advocacy of some group, naturally).

    Yeah, he launches bullshit my way just to see if I will respond. Who really cares what Armando thinks? Today, according to him, I a sexist and a misognyist- tomorrow maybe a pederast and a racist (this is where he chimes in and says ‘I never said you were sexist or misogynist, just that YOU HAVE A TIN EAR to it!’). Wanker.

    Screw him. I am just sad that Talk Left is a nuclear spill nowadays.

  73. 73.

    orogeny

    June 23, 2008 at 12:44 pm

    srv,

    Fuck you and your “Clinton troll” shit. I’ve been visiting this site for at least as long and probably longer than you have. Yes, I was a Clinton supporter. During the primary, I wrote a fair number of posts defending Clinton against assholes like you, but I defy you to find a post where I attacked Obama. Your definition of a troll is anyone who dares to disagree with you.

  74. 74.

    jibeaux

    June 23, 2008 at 12:48 pm

    Obama seems to have taken the line that the Dems have been working under for years…the American people are just too sensitive or stupid or reactionary or whatever for a politician to tell them the truth.

    This is disappointing to me, too, but it seems to infected large swaths of the House when just four months ago it seemed a spinal transplant had taken place and had not yet been rejected. So it’s just weird all around. It almost makes me wonder if the Senate plans on something interesting with it, and for right now I’m holding my fire…

    Still and all, when it comes to pandering to the public rather than telling them the truth, “so-called economists” more or less takes the cake. A chocolate cake with a triple whipped cream cheese frosting.

  75. 75.

    John Cole

    June 23, 2008 at 12:56 pm

    LOL at all of you who are getting worked up by Tim (not to be confused with Tim F.). Tim has a long history of coming by once every month or so and launching a broadside at me, then disappearing into the wilderness for a month, only to come out and mangle more livestock in the dead of night, leaving the farmers and ranch hands mystified and terrified.

    He is the blog commenter equivalent of an alien of the yeti, and he won’t read what you have written to him. He will, however, be back in another month to call me an asshole, though.

  76. 76.

    Punchy

    June 23, 2008 at 12:57 pm

    (aka writing checks my ass can’t catch)

    Dont feel bad, Dregs, my ass doesn’t catch a lot of checks, either.

  77. 77.

    NewUnansweredQuestions

    June 23, 2008 at 1:03 pm

    He will, however, be back in another month to call me an asshole, though.

    Hmmm. That sounds exactly like what my ex wife does to me.

  78. 78.

    Neal

    June 23, 2008 at 1:11 pm

    LOL at all of you who are getting worked up by Tim

    Well, on the day of Carlin’s passing I am at least glad that I got to call someone a piece of shit.

  79. 79.

    empty

    June 23, 2008 at 1:12 pm

    Dreggas Says:

    Dennis – SGMM Says:

    …Hillary-supporting feminists…

    I for one have been impressed by the way that feminists have rallied to the side of Michelle Obama.

    Same here. I mean they really rallied to her side against the pure crap like “baby daddy” on fox and such. I was really touched. Oh wait…that didn’t happen but of course mentioning Hillary’s pant suit was just beyond the pale….oh wait that’s it it has to do with being pale….

    You guys really need to get out a bit. Most feminists I read are pretty pissed about sexism directed against Michelle Obama, just as they were about sexism directed against Clinton. Shakesville (“Shakesville is a feminist blog, and a feminist’s blog.”)ran the Hillary Sexism Watch. They run the Michelle Obama Sexism/Racism watch. A recent entry:

    Please enjoy conservative talk show host Lars Larson, on MSNBC’s Verdict with Dan Abrams, reinforcing the meme that Michelle Obama is unpatriotic; talking about how this country “gave her” an ivy league education and a lucrative “do-nothing job”; then scoffing unapologetically at the zany idea that she actually earned those things.

    As Gina says over at Michelle Obama Watch, where I found this, “This time it is NOT Fox News!” And you know, that’s what really gets me. I am so fucking tired of supposedly mainstream — supposedly liberal, even, depending on whom you ask — media outlets giving fucking yahoos like this airtime in the interest of “balance.” Not that I expect much at all from MSNBC these days, mind you, but when you’re doing a segment called “Can Michelle Obama overcome the right wing smear machine?” what the hell are you doing giving a proud member of the right wing smear machine equal time to further propagate those smears?

    And just in case you are wondering they also run an Obama Racism/Muslim/Unpatriotic/Scary Black Dude Watch.

  80. 80.

    kilo

    June 23, 2008 at 1:21 pm

    All best on your coming military adventures.

    Tim

    Shorter Tim: My superficial stupidity serves to mask my underlying fundamental idiocy.

  81. 81.

    Doctor Jay

    June 23, 2008 at 1:34 pm

    I think it’s quite possible for a Democratic voter to think of Obama as someone who isn’t necessarily all that committed to reproductive rights other than politically. Let me offer an analogy to the argument that Obama’s Supreme Court nominees would be better than John McCain’s.

    Y’all seem to have the war as a top issue, right? Well, what if the (hypothetically female, just for fun) Dem nominee didn’t want to talk much about it, and the best you could say about her was that he wouldn’t put Don Rumsfeld in charge of the Pentagon, nor give Doug Feith or Condaleeza Rice jobs.

    Nothing to say about how or when we get out, or what’s gone wrong, or what needs to be different. Whenever the war comes up, she changes the subject, and sometimes makes remarks like, “let’s keep our focus on the important stuff”.

    I don’t think you’d be very happy about that candidate, especially since something like, oh, 16 million of you voted for someone based on his outspoken criticism of the war. You might expect a little more energy and attention from such a candidate to your top issue, which doesn’t seem like it’s all that much of a loser.

  82. 82.

    srv

    June 23, 2008 at 1:34 pm

    During the primary, I wrote a fair number of posts defending Clinton against assholes like you, but I defy you to find a post where I attacked Obama. Your definition of a troll is anyone who dares to disagree with you.

    Nicely played, unless you missed the Sojourner against the MUPmob the other day and are just ignorant.

    The MUPosphere here long classified me as a Clinton-troll because I dared question MUPomania and said nice things about her. I may call her Hitlery on occassion, but that’s a leftover from apeing MacBuckets back in the day. You should know that if you’ve been here since forever.

    I suppose snarkivore (srv) would be more obvious, but then I wouldn’t be Hilbot-RPbot-Kucinichbot-McSamebot and now, alas MUPbot. What the trolls don’t fill at BJ, the projectors do.

    I do troll under one ID, but it’s pretty hard part to play loyal Republican since McSame won.

  83. 83.

    orogeny

    June 23, 2008 at 1:50 pm

    My bad, srv…it’s getting to be a reflex. Ever since the primary started and I made some posts defending Clinton I have been classed a a troll over and over again. The names in the comment section have changed so much over that last year or so, it’s getting hard to keep up with everyone. I miss the days when this site was a good place to get in a fight with a right-winger…Darryl, tallDave, MacBuckets, et.al.

  84. 84.

    jibeaux

    June 23, 2008 at 1:56 pm

    I think it’s quite possible for a Democratic voter to think of Obama as someone who isn’t necessarily all that committed to reproductive rights other than politically.

    I don’t think it’s necessary for Obama to actually have an abortion, personally.

    This is some weak-ass trolling.

  85. 85.

    Queixada

    June 23, 2008 at 1:59 pm

    I can just laugh at all of this because the significant number of Clinton supporters have come home. All that are left are dead enders and they won’t even be efficient in their spoiling. They aren’t organized, and collectively that don’t know how they want to flip off the Dems. Write Hill’s name in? Stay home? Vote McCain.

    November’s gonna be sweet.

  86. 86.

    Queixada

    June 23, 2008 at 2:04 pm

    Doctor Jay Says:

    I think it’s quite possible for a Democratic voter to think of Obama as someone who isn’t necessarily all that committed to reproductive rights other than politically.

    Abortions and Gay marriage both go against my religion. I would rather my children grow up in a world that shares my ideals, but the world does not belong solely to me or those who think similarly. That’s the whole point Civilian rights? You don’t have to agree with something to agree that it’s fair for another person to disagree with you.

    Also, concern troll is concerned.

  87. 87.

    Chris Johnson

    June 23, 2008 at 2:33 pm

    I just hope they can learn to like Obama ‘cos I’m not going to stop voting for him- and I’d hate to piss off the whole cougar population when it’s the coolest thing I’ve heard of in ages ;)

    Thanks to this blogpost I went out googling cougars, and damn, that’s hot :) one site even had an embedded sound clip. rrrROWL!

    Who knew the attitude I find hottest would become mega-trendy among older single women?

  88. 88.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    June 23, 2008 at 2:38 pm

    The article portrays them in a pretty negative light- petty, childish, immature, vengeful, and simply poised to throw away their vote out of spite.

    Weird, because they seem so calm, levelheaded and rational online.

  89. 89.

    tim

    June 23, 2008 at 2:39 pm

    He is the blog commenter equivalent of an alien of the yeti, and he won’t read what you have written to him. He will, however, be back in another month to call me an asshole, though.

    Hey John, this is Concern Tim:

    I read your blog almost every day.

    Yet ANOTHER thing your make incorrect assumptions about…as usual, assuming your own infallibility. BTW, please reference my response to SRV re your prior military “service.”

    Thanks.

    I find your blog provocative and entertaining, if often…fucked up.

    Thanks,

    Tim the Troll (concerned)

  90. 90.

    John Cole

    June 23, 2008 at 2:42 pm

    I read your blog almost every day.

    You only comment about every month, so I assumed you only did drivebys every now and then. I figured if you read me every day, you would find a helluva lot more opportunities to call me an asshole, because I do provide you all with a lot of them.

  91. 91.

    srv

    June 23, 2008 at 2:45 pm

    John’s prior service to the military industrial complex is irrelevant regarding the Great and Glorious GWOT.

    I said John served, I’m not sure which side he was on though.

  92. 92.

    dnA

    June 23, 2008 at 2:56 pm

    You guys really need to get out a bit. Most feminists I read are pretty pissed about sexism directed against Michelle Obama, just as they were about sexism directed against Clinton. Shakesville (“Shakesville is a feminist blog, and a feminist’s blog.”)ran the Hillary Sexism Watch. They run the Michelle Obama Sexism/Racism watch.

    So by “get out” you mean sit inside and read blogs?

  93. 93.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    June 23, 2008 at 2:56 pm

    I know she is very supportive of gay rights, but then again, so am I and I am not gay.

    I tried to be gay once. I quit when it was my turn. I was like, hey that’s nice but I don’t think it’s for me, god, so sleepy.

  94. 94.

    Gerald Curl

    June 23, 2008 at 3:09 pm

    I don’t know how many of these Clinton supporters fall into a category that I’ve become acutely aware of recently. In the last couple of weeks I’ve had a few family members, people I love dearly, basically say that the reason they won’t vote for Obama is simply because they don’t want a black person in charge. They aren’t raging, dumb racists and they don’t harbor any particular animosity towards Obama. However, the idea of a black person (any black person) affecting some small part of their lives terrifies them. Some of them were life-long Republicans ready to vote for Hillary Clinton, some are Democrats who don’t like McCain, but none of them can see themselves voting for Obama. It’s really doing my head in that people I care for can be so fucking stupid.

  95. 95.

    Queixada

    June 23, 2008 at 3:15 pm

    you DO realize that racism isn’t all burning crosses and white hoods right?

  96. 96.

    Phoebe

    June 23, 2008 at 3:26 pm

    FORMER Clinton supporters will not be angry at all, they’ll nod, shudder, and move on. This voting-for-McCain issue exactly isolates the crazies in one neat pile. I don’t worry about alienating them, because I think they are hopelessly alienated already. I think they love being alienated; they cling to it. How else to explain them voting against a very strong NARAL endorsement, to pick the most obvious indicator. Of crazy.

  97. 97.

    tim

    June 23, 2008 at 3:30 pm

    You only comment about every month, so I assumed you only did drivebys every now and then. I figured if you read me every day, you would find a helluva lot more opportunities to call me an asshole, because I do provide you all with a lot of them.

    John:

    I hate it when you do the charming, self-depracating blog host thing…it makes it so much harder to maintain my self righteous aura of perfectitude. :)

    Seriously, I do find much of what you write–and the style in which you write it–to be thought provoking, even when I disagree, which is often. That’s what keeps me coming back, I guess. That, and masochism. I check Sullivan every day too, just to keep myself properly apalled.

    Often enjoy your sense of humor also.

    All best (and I mean that for the most part),

    Tim the Troll

  98. 98.

    lawsipanther

    June 23, 2008 at 3:45 pm

    empty, absolutely agreed that Shakesville has been up on the sexism/racism watch re: MO & BO, but they also aren’t the ones claiming they’re gonna take their ball and go home/vote for McCain because Clinton didn’t win. I’d like to see some concern for the racism/sexism shown towards both Obamas from the TalkLefts & Corrente Wires of the world.

  99. 99.

    Gerald Curl

    June 23, 2008 at 4:05 pm

    you DO realize that racism isn’t all burning crosses and white hoods right?

    I do. It’s just weird that people who I do not believe to be racist (i.e., I’ve never heard them say anything racist before) can express such an unequivocally racist thought. It’s such a WTF moment.

  100. 100.

    Krista

    June 23, 2008 at 4:05 pm

    I figured if you read me every day, you would find a helluva lot more opportunities to call me an asshole, because I do provide you all with a lot of them.

    Heh.

    WRT that Salon piece, there was a lovely, idiotic companion piece by Shapiro, basically saying, not to worry about the little women…they’ll fall in line. Rightly or wrongly, there are a lot of Clinton supporters who are still pretty upset, ranging from disappointment to rage. Patting them on the head and saying, “You want to leave? Guess what, hon? You’ve got nowhere to go” does absolutely nothing to help, and in the comments I told Shapiro that he’s a divisive jackass.

    There are some Clinton supporters out there who won’t vote for Obama no matter what. They have simply decided that they don’t like him, they don’t trust him, and that’s that. But there are others who would probably consider him, if they weren’t constantly being shoved away by idiots like Shapiro or other Obama supporters saying, “Ah, who needs you guys anyway?”. I know Obama can’t control his supporters, but we can control what each of us says, and I think that the best thing to do would be to treat them the way that we would want to be treated, had Obama lost.

    Don’t take their vote for granted, but don’t tell them their vote isn’t needed, either. It is needed, and it behooves us to point out WHY we think this guy would make a good president, instead of just saying, “Well, you can’t vote for McCain! Roe vs. Wade! The Supreme Court!”.

  101. 101.

    D.N. Nation

    June 23, 2008 at 4:42 pm

    Don’t take their vote for granted, but don’t tell them their vote isn’t needed, either. It is needed, and it behooves us to point out WHY we think this guy would make a good president, instead of just saying, “Well, you can’t vote for McCain! Roe vs. Wade! The Supreme Court!”.

    Give a little, get a little. It would behoove certain Hillary supporters to stop hearing every pro-Obama line of argument as just “OMG ROE VS. WADE DUMB BROADS,” and to stop treating every argument with disingenuous snark. That’s where the temptation to throw out “fuck off, vote for whoever, scoreboard” comes in.

  102. 102.

    Kyle

    June 23, 2008 at 4:49 pm

    With the strategic placement of one or two commas, PUMAs could be an organization that I could, um, get behind…

    “Party, Unity, My Ass”. Changes around the whole meaning…

  103. 103.

    Phoebe

    June 23, 2008 at 7:48 pm

    Krista, you’re right, telling them they are crazy to vote for McCain is pointless. Pointless because if they don’t know that already then you might as well be talking to a tree stump. I’m not saying we don’t need them, only that we’ll never get them if they are that crazy.

    Then again, the article says it’s not hopeless, that we just need to sit down and hold their hands, and you know, honor their crazy emotion-driven grudge because they’re women and they need to be heard. Well, if that works, fine. Whoever does it has a stomach of iron. I would probably nod along for awhile, then end up squeaking, “excuse me but I just realized I left the oven on” and run. I believe in disagreeing without being disagreeable, but sometimes I can’t live up to it.

  104. 104.

    Phoebe

    June 23, 2008 at 7:54 pm

    Kyle, I think you mean exclamation points, not commas. See: “Peace! Unity! Love! And Having Fun!” by James Brown and Afrika Bambaataa.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6hE5OmpKyc

    “World leaders, give it up! Turn it loose! Punk rock! New wave!”

  105. 105.

    Notorious P.A.T.

    June 23, 2008 at 8:32 pm

    what will scarlet johansen think of me now??

    She’s engaged ( ( (

  106. 106.

    Rome Again

    June 24, 2008 at 3:04 am

    Very late to the thread, I wonder how many of these same crazy women go to sit in a church pew on Sunday mornings and nod their head in agreement when the pastor says Eve was made to be a helpmate to Adam?

  107. 107.

    Janefinch

    June 24, 2008 at 9:34 am

    Sounds pretty accurate re the self-described PUMAs to me.

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