Raining here, so not much to do in the way of 4th activities.
On the upside, google’s site is all gussied up in patriotic colors, so we have avoided a minor hissy-fit from the right-wing blogs.
*** Update ***
PS- I hate Democrats. You all have your little pet issue, and if the candidate does not say exactly what you want, you pitch a fit for five months, all the while remaining incapable of figuring out that if there was sufficient political will in the country for said pet issue, there WOULD PROBABLY BE MORE PEOPLE IN CONGRESS WHO SHARED YOUR OPINION ON FISA (or whatever the issue is). No wonder Democrats can’t get elected. They have to fight the Republicans, the media, and the Democrats.
You all suck. I think I am done blogging for the day. I have nothing but contempt for you all.
El Cid
That may be so, but nowhere in that decorated “Google” name does Google acknowledge John McCain’s service record, so this sort of attack on his service must be denounced and rejected.
The Thinking Man's Mel Torme
I did an actual spit-take when the local teevee had this this morning: Gov. Crist Engaged To Socialite.
Given that Crispy is as queer as a $3 bill, the laughability of this maneuver had me check to see if the cable system substituted a new “Onion” channel overnight. Sadly, no, it’s real.
This worries me greatly. Despite the fact that he’s the emptiest of empty suits, whose signal gubernatorial achievements have been signing property insurance “reform” that was a big, wet kiss to the insurers, and property tax “reform” that saved the average homeowner $150 while bankrupting the state, he’s widely popular here, and with Democrats as well. If McC picks him, he will deliver Florida. Not that I doubted that, but with the way B.O. has been carpet-bombing the state with ads, I figured he might have a chance.
I’m sure some would accuse me of character assassination with respect to Crispy, but, great Christ, if you dated Katherine Harris and weren’t gay beforehand, you sure as hell would be after.
Ranger3
If Obama doesn’t promise an NCAA D-1A Football Playoff, I’m sitting out the election.
Some guy
I think those Dems organizing to put pressure on Congress and Obama not to support telecom immunity are doing impressive citizenship. Those Dems who just whine and say, not unlike disappointed Hillaryites, I won’t vote for Obama now, are being idiotic. If the organizing can push the Congress to not grant immunity, it will not hurt Obama’s election chances and democracy will have functioned. There is no downside to that. But yes, the people who will not vote or will aid and abet Bush’s heir because Obama is not perfect for them are just being twits. I voted for Clinton twice and he was never even close to as liberal as I would like a president to be. Obama is a mile wide and a fathom deep better than McCain. And yes, I was deeply dissapointed by his tack on this issue. I hope he really does try to stop telecom immunity, but I won’t sit home on Nov. 2 if he doesn’t.
Dug Jay
LOL re “Update.”
Lavocat
I fart in your general direction!
Jim Henley
A perverse part of me wishes Google had just run a pic of Iron Eyes Cody crying in a landfill.
Mithi
Hey, FUCK you!
montysano
You’re right: I DO suck, and I have nothing but contempt for me. I think I’ll spend today trying to distance myself from me.
Happy 4th, John, and to all Juicers!
Xenos
One of the best ways to distinguish Ds from Rs is personality. Rs tend to be comfortable with authority, and are more willing to be disciplined in order to keep a movement going. As the name suggests, Ds like democracy for democracy’s sake, which is to prefer pointless bickering over coherence and efficiency.
So don’t be contemptuous… it is like having children with the opposite personality type. It is annoying and appalling at times, but such is humanity.
EL
There is the line – “Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line.” So those Democrats who are characteristic (I don’t think I’m one) are now at the “getting over the infatuation” stage, the stage where the loved one is idealized and can do no wrong. It’s time to for some to grow up and recognize that the candidate will always have imperfections, will never agree with every Democrat’s exact list of positions.
OTOH, I rejoice that unlike some Republicans, we don’t go for the “it really is the best postion – Oceania has always been at war with ….” type mentality.
So yes John, there are some to feed your hissy fit, but not all of us. But still, enjoy your 4th if you can, rain or no, hissy fit or no.
WMass
If you want to be a mindless drone, automatically groveling at the feet of an authority figure, the Republican Party is always an option.
dave
Fixed your post.
A Different Matt
I was thinking of something along the lines of what Xenos said, although after Hilary’s primary I’m not so naive as to believe democrats in general don’t succumb to authority, cult of personality, and identity politics like republicans do. But I have observed that liberals seem harder to incite into apologizing for grave misdeeds of those in power; it’s impossible to get lefty’s into lockstep over anything, much less inhumane or illegal activities.
I mean, what’s a lefty but someone who isn’t comfortable with power? Isn’t this why the DFH are so derided?
So welcome to the party John! Now continue to fret at the base and forget about focusing your energy on electoral politics.
Wilfred
Fuck off, John. You only gave a shit about the Democrats after you got fucked on your pet republican issues, after you found that that the people you thought believed in the same things you did turned out to be opportunistic political whores. Now you get pissed if some Democratic voters recoil at the idea of the same thing happening to them.
I think you’re trolling your own site.
John Cole
A.) I prefer the chance that Obama will turn into an opportunistic whore after he is elected over the possibility that we will elect a REAL BONA FIDE whore in the form of McCain.
B.) I came to the party pre-disillusioned. There are already a number of opportunistic whores in Democratic party. I will do everything to elect better Democrats and keep the existing whores in line AFTER WE ELECT OBAMA.
Shygetz
I guess I’m even more disillusioned than you are.
A.) I have every confidence that both McCain and Obama are opportunistic whores. I will support and vote for Obama because I like his clients better.
B.) No reason we can’t do both at the same time. Obama is sounding out the electorate; unless we let him know that, yes, it is possible to piss his base off enough to mean something, he will keep drifting rightward towards Republican-Lite land. And you know how the saying goes–when given the option between a real Republican and a fake Republican, voters will pick the real thing every time.
There are people in the Dem party who take it too far and refuse to vote for anything but the perfect candidate. These people exist in both parties–look at parts of the Repub evangelical base that is now refusing to go along with Bush redux. They are morons. I’m not happy with Obama about FISA, but I am happy with him about many other things. He still has my support, it’s just not quite as full-throated as it was previously.
Dennis - SGMM
Wilfred, go learn the difference between a withdrawal and a rout.
Learn that the only feasible way out is four hundred miles long and punctuated with bridges and other choke points. Realize that the road system North to Turkey is insufficient to move substantial amounts of men and materiel. Note that Syria won’t, for understandable reasons, allow the transit of our troops to its ports. And no, we don’t have enough aircraft to simply whisk away all of the trrops and equipment.
Hopefully, everything will go as planned and the withdrawal will take sixteen months. Hopefully it will be as incident free as Russia’s withdrawal from Afghanistan. I suspect that it will. But, in addition to the troops there are approximately 180,000 US contractors, most of whom will also have to be brought out. If it takes a little more time to accomplish a withdrawal rather than a rout I’m okay with it. A rout would automatically make Obama a one-term president as well as getting a lot of people killed for the sake of a date on a calendar.
John Cole
LEt me give you an example. In some quarters, Obama is getting a lot of heat about comments in a religious magazine about late term abortion and mental health (some have even called him a misogynist). The venom will only grow, and all I can think is that Democrats can’t even do basic math.
Let me break it down for you. This election is not going to move the high court to the left. Period. The next justices to retire are the “liberal” wing of the court, and even if Obama is able to clone and then nominate zombie William Kunstler twice, the basic make-up of the court will not change. It will still be 4-4 with Kennedy in the middle. And that is the very best Democrats can hope for in the first Obama term. The absolute best.
Additionally, there is nothing that I have seen that Obama, as President, is going to pursue a path to banning late-term abortion, not to mention I highly doubt congress will follow that path.
So there you have it. You can accept that Obama is trying to soften his anti-abortion stance with a group whose support for MCCain needs to be depressed, and is doing so by throwing out a line about abortion that is not going to have any impact on the actual reality of an Obama administration.
So, you have a choice. You can freak out, call Obama a misogynist and be livid because he is not following your position 100% the way you want and withold the financial support he needs to win and deal with a 6-2 (+kennedy) court that most assuredly will limit abortion rights, or you can grow the fuck up and learn how to count.
El Cid
I dunno. A lot of times when Democratic politicians are left on their own without pressure from the base, they seem to do pretty well at shooting themselves in the feet — giving away issues to Republicans, fading away, giving in on controversial issues.
Seems to me the problem is not the base’s propensity to give feedback, but the politicians’ likelihood to run free to idiocy.
The Democrats won in 2006, but that was a period of some of the highest Democratic activist feedback on issues.
Leaving the Democratic candidates to confidently, boldly, and unanswerably damage their own campaigns seems the greater danger than trying to avert their own tendencies toward stupidity.
RSA
Congratulations. You’ve met an important criterion for being a Democrat. Oddly enough, this seems to be a trait shared with Republicans. . .
neil
I feel exactly the same way about Republicans. A Party of hate filled, xenophobic, homophobic, racist, Rapture freaks – half of whose leaders should be behind bars making license plates.
But naturally there aren’t any one-issue voters in the Republican ranks, right? Or are they just better at swallowing hard and goose-stepping their way to the polls and voting for whom they’re told to?
Actually, I think if you probe your disgust a little further, you’ll find that you actually hate Americans. I accepted long ago that Americans are the most self-referential, self-serving, belly-button-gazing, sociopathic narcissists on the planet. Once you get there – it’s a liberating experience.
garyb50
I also have nothing but contempt for you all.
Sunny
Thank you, I needed that. As it is, I have such low self esteem that if you didn’t kick me, I’d have to do it myself.
Wilfred
The Lieberman Phenomenon: He’s with us on everything but the war.
I’m not looking for perfection, merely the doable – something that requires commitment and integrity. I accept a 16 month phased withdrawal even though I’d like to see it in 16 days, and expect Obama to hold fast to the that same position. Again, he floated a balloon and it got shot down – that’s good for everybody.
chiggins
Let me break it down for you. This election is not going to move the high court to the left. Period. The next justices to retire are the “liberal” wing of the court, and even if Obama is able to clone and then nominate zombie William Kunstler twice, the basic make-up of the court will not change. It will still be 4-4 with Kennedy in the middle. And that is the very best Democrats can hope for in the first Obama term. The absolute best.
I’m actually entertaining the possibility that Antonin’s gonna git himself a shooter, which opens up the possibility that he’s gonna try to clean it with one in the chamber.
Or, that one of the justices on the right side will end up hunting with Cheney.
It’s a roll of the dice, I realize that, but what the hell. Stranger things have been happening for the last 7 years.
Sorry you’re havin’ a rough day with it, I understand. I’m still will Carlin on this one, it ain’t the politicians, it’s the public that sucks. This is just the best we can do.
cgp
Haha, I guess democrats truly do hate themselves.
pinola
You know, if it weren’t for agitators, *nothing* would change. I’m not one of the moaners and pissers, not anymore, but get off the backs of those who resist and call things as they are. Conflict can produce results.
It’s true, we’re not lemmings but where would we be if we hadn’t had the netroots (mainly Democratic) to counter the myriad republican memes (often casually enabled by Democrats) used to destroy this country. All the while, these people were villified as unpatriotic vermin. These are the same people who are yelling now, so what? They have a right to say what they want to say.
Don’t worry. We’re all going to roll over in the end (see above dichotomy that is the Democratic party). Obama has shown he can handle the scorn of the left and address it in a cogent fashion, as well. I think that’s healthy.
Try to get a broader view on things. Um, never mind, that might turn you into a Democrat.
(Anyway, I think you are talking about certain groups of Democrats. It’s a bit too simple to paint all of us with the same broad, ‘ever-dissatisfied, liberal’ brush, I think.)
Bey
That’s it exactly. Republicans want an authoritarian, father figure because it removes the requirement for them to do any hard thinking or weighing of alternatives. They are willing to goose-step because goose-stepping is simple.
Up or down vote. Zero tolerance. With us or against us.
All classic binary Republican positions.
John Harrold
You’re right all the Democrats suck. If they want to compete with the republicans they should just cave for the sake of party unity :). In all sincerity I agree with you John, but taken too far and you end up where the republicans are: fuck small government (jack up spending), fuck personal responsibility (cut taxes), fuck non intrusiveness (fear teh gay, schievo), we just need to stay in power.
Roza
Twilight Zone Marathon is your friend
Wilfred
Oh , bullshit. I crossed the Iraq-Turkey frontier at the Khalil point almost 20 years ago, and that’s only one point of crossing – and it’s in Kurdistan. What, the Turks aren’t going to allow American troops and material to pass there? How the fuck do you think Saddam smuggled out all the oil during the sanctions? The crossings would be 50km deep in oil transports. The southern exit is through Shia areas
Again, are you suggesting that thousands of Iraqis will suddenly line the roads to attack a withdrawing force, thus exposing themselves to every tactical air support the US has?
And what would prevent them from doing that at any point, say 20 years, in the future? Your reasoning would preclude the US from ever leaving.
The arguments against withdrawal, even one more rapid than 16 months, are specious.
Just Some Fuckhead
It’s the mindset that makes someone a Democrat these days: too free-spirited for the topdown authoritarianism of the Republican party and not committed enough to core Democratic issues to fight for the whole of the Democratic platform at the expense of their pet issue. It certainly doesn’t help that the national party doesn’t seem inclined to fight for the whole of the Democratic platform either.
In short, a party of convenience cobbled together to offer a saner politics than the currently batshit insane Republican party is capable of. Isn’t that why you’re here politically, John?
cleek
your update’s spot-on, JC
lilly Von Schtupp
John, go have a beer and pet your cat. You might feel a little better after that.
Everyone else, Happy 4th!
gbear
I agree with your rant totally. When I first discovered blogs I used to like Firedoglake, but it’s become pet issue and ‘I am so outraged I can hardly type’ territory and, as such, has become thoroughly unreadable.
I hope that by ‘You all’, you mean ‘you people who post comments on blogs’. There’s a huge difference. I don’t think that the general democratic voting population is nearly as hyperventilated and pissy as the people who feel driven to broadcast their thoughts on the internets (although I’d assume that 90% of Nader voters are).
I believe that the pissy democrats have less of an effect over election results than the constant brainless assault by the MSM. Almost everything we’re seeing on TV ‘news’ shows these days is just brutally inaccurate and slanted. There seem to be some signs that the public-at-large has figured this out and is tuning out, but the media has been a propaganda machine for so long that it doesn’t even know any other way to operate. Bill Moyers and his Media Reform group really have their work cut out for them.
The least that ‘you all’ of us can do is to not pile on right away when we see or hear one of these crappy MSM news stories that gets it completely wrong. One thing that we’ll always have to deal with is that the people who get the most ‘outraged’ and pissy about anything will be the ones who head straight to blogs to broadcast their outrage.
So here we are, John. Love your blog. Thanks for providing smart smart insight and a great discussion forum for us all.
John Cole
Let me give you another example. Imagine the United States is morbidly obese patient with a large number of physical ailments:
he has diabetes (Iraq war)
his blood pressure is high (the economy)
his cholesterol is through the roof (Justice department and torture)
his pulse is way too high (budget and tax cuts)
his triglycerides are through the roof (FISA)
He is 700 pounds overweight (Republican President)
Now, we all know that if he would just lose some weight, all of those other things would get better. Most sane, rational, human beings, while concerned about the other issues, would try to focus on the obesity.
Not, however, Democrats. Instead of treating the obesity, a Democratic doctor’s prescription for this patient is to address the triglyceride issue and ignore the other ailments. Take care of those triglycerides, and the patient will get better, the good doctor says.
So, the poor fat bastard takes the advice of the doctor. Rather than doing all the things he can do to lower his weight, he sacrifices everything to get his triglycerides down.
And promptly dies in November.
Nellcote
cheer up!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDA9NbPAK8o&eurl
Sirkowski
Tell it like it is, John!
1jpb
Brilliant post script.
For some reason I thought the D affinity with tunnel vision, naval gazing, and whimpering that propelled the primary way past the point of usefulness would just go away for the general.
This seems to be a psychological deficit for which there is no remedy. At least the afflicted are small in numbers, although they do make quite a fuss.
donnah
Sounds like you’ve been over at Shakesville. I enjoy some of the topics there and usually the level of humor is good. But they go berserk on issues, (like FISA and now this late term abortion thing) and as you said so well, they want to focus on a stupid fine point without seeing the big picture. They keep chipping away at Obama and pretty soon there won’t be anything left.
I’m voting for him. I will never walk away from my right to vote and my decision is based on what I think is best for the country.
Ella in NM
How funny! That pretty much sums up my comments at WallStreetJournalOnline to a post about how unfair it is to raise taxes on the top 1% of earnings. (Actually I think I said that the rich totally screwed the pooch during their 7 year party, so Fuck Them now they have to pay.)
gbear
I am so outraged by your ‘weightist’ attitiudes that I can hardly type thru the tears flowing down my face.
True: I got a letter this week from my doctor telling me that I’ve finally gotten my triglycerides on target. He didn’t mention the 60lbs I need to lose. Must be a democrat. ;)
Bob In Pacifica
None dare call it treason. Damned few are capable of imagining it. That’s why, John.
On October 3, 1963, there were three Lee Harvey Oswalds. One was looking for work at the unemployment office in Dallas while another was in Alice, Texas applying for a job while a third was in Mexico City trying to get in touch with the Cubans and Soviets.
Do the math. 3 Oswalds = a conspiracy six weeks before the JFK assassination. The intelligence community runs this country. They want more spying, they want the war. They get it.
Wilfred
The problem with your analogy John is that the diabetes is not just killing the fucking patient but a host of other people who want nothing to do with him.
The illegal occupation of Iraq has already resulted in the destruction of tens of thousands of people who had nothing to do with the intricacies of American tax codes or the civil rights of gay people or any other goddamned thing that matters to some, none or all Americans. Nor do such things matter to the millions of Iraqis who have been subjected to ethnic cleansing or the estimated 30,000 locked up in prison without trial or charges merely because they pissed of some American military interrogator.
The war and occupation of Iraq harms other people, no matter what Americans think about its relative worth or importance. That’s why it is the most significant disease on the patient’s chart. If said patient wants to stuff his fat face with cholesterol bombs and then subject himself to a Draino enema, fine, go ahead. Just stop shitting on other people.
JR
Ah fuck you too. Happy 4th asshole. You made a better Republican anyway.
Lupin
I don’t frame the “Obama issue” the way you do.
First, I believe the US of A (like the old USSR) is now on a collision course towards tectonic changes driven by outside factors (peak oil, financial collapse, etc, etc) and that “President Gorbachev” (Obama) or “President Andropov” (McCain) isn’t going to make a massive difference in the medium-term (no more than it did in the USSR).
We may differ on this, of course.
Two, if Obama is going to compromise on what makes America America, then as a consequence, I don’t feel strongly about supporting him as a president. To carry on with your medical analogy, I’d rather let the chips fall where they may, since what the patient is going to die anyway.
Even though I’m in California, I’ll still vote for Obama if only to punish the Repugs, but I do feel uninvolved as far as supporting him.
nightjar
That pretty much sums it up. I’ve come to believe the wingnuts were onto something with the Bush Derangement Syndrome” I mostly got over mine with the dem landslide in 2006. And not because democrats recaptured congress, as I knew the slim margins and lingering insecurities of keeping the majority would prevent them from changing much the status quo.
But more because my fears that the American public had permanently bought into the wingnut narrative, were essentially unfounded. But for many (or some) their seems to be a dissociative element that prevents them from looking ahead to where democrats control most of the power levers. And how that will totally upend the current political realty in America. That doesn’t mean democrats will always toe the line on all issues for progressive governance, because they won’t, and neither will Obama. It does mean we’ll begin to look back and see how GWB made us all quite nuts, to one degree or another, and that now it is something for history to sort out. Unless of course, dems sabotage their candidate and let Mccain win.
Gus
So did TZ hack into the site and start posting as John?
scarshapedstar
Are there *any* Democrats who were in favor of telecom immunity? Even a single one? Really, it seems that you think Democrats ought to lie there and take it when Democratic politicians sell out to Republicans instead of their own fucking party’s voters.
In your perfect world, Democrats vote for Democratic politicians, Democratic politicians cater to Republican voters. I sure hope that Republican politicians give us some love to finish this reach-around because otherwise we’re pretty much getting shafted.
Dan
OK, then.
nightjar
Well, yes. Quite a few, especially in the US Senate. And BTW Obama wasn’t one of them. If you want to do something about it, then try and get them voted out of office in their next primary. Somehow, I think you would rather rant and rave than actually do something about it.
Joshua Norton
Of course, they couldn’t even think up their own terms. Just took their own “Clinton Derangement Syndrome” and changed the name.
How original.
El Cid
Again, how did all the pressure on Democrats in 2006 cause them to lose, you know, Congress, since before all that pressure they had been able to hold it for the last dozen years, 1994 – 2006, right?
pinola
This is a long haul. We just have to hang in. Too much at stake. When your options are 4 more years of Bush and something better, however flawed it may be in the beginning, you have to take what you can get and get some damned discovery going.
Wilfred
The hell with Iraq:
Attack China.
Keith
Well, at least you share the whiny-ass part with those for whom you have contempt. You’re still carrying the Repub habit of stereotyping an entire party over a few vocal asshats, though, so fuck you and congrats on a miserable, rainy 4th. You deserve it.
b. hussein canuckistani
It’s not my goddamned country, monkey-boy. I didn’t wreck it, and it’s not my job to fix it. But I’m sure I deserve your contempt for other reasons, like my haircut or my shoes.
John Cole
How about some help shouting down the asshats? Or is working together to elect the better of two candidates, Obama, too “authoritarian” and too much of a “repub habit” for all you deep thinkers who are busy slicing off your nose with your moral authority?
pinola
Obama can handle it. He’s dealing with itfine, as far as I can tell. Am I missing something?
nightjar
Never commented on my own comment before.
There is nothing wrong IMO, with dems criticizing, complaining or pressuring their candidates to not wander to far away from core dem values. The problem occurs when it’s taken to the level of dems labeling Obama a flip-flopper, or a GOP sellout, or whatever, especially over parsing his words to make charges of flip-flopping when has not changed his fundamental position.
John Cole
I simply do not understand why you all even vote, to be honest. Sure, I made the mistake and voted for Bush twice, but I learned from my mistake. Many of you are content to sit by and run with Republican memes while the media has bbq qith McCain. Read the op-ed pages every day. The WSJ, every day, pushes editorials by 4-5 people ttacking Obama.
The WaPo has a different idea of fair and balance. Half their editorials savage Obama, while the other half, in the interest of balance, praise McCain. Christ on a crutch, today the “liberal” NY Times is savaging Obama, cementing the flip-flopper meme for his position on FISA and campaign finance, without so much as noting that McCain may have actually broken the law on Campaign Finance and would expand FISA.
Meanwhile, neither of those issues even enters the top 10 of voter concerns in 2008, and the nutroots sits around and joins in on the Obama bashing on their various pet issues.
Mind you, I have no problem attacking a candidate for when they are wrong, and will do so, but some in the Democratic party are pathetic. Some days I think you all deserve McCain.
John Cole
And yes, I said nutroots. It is not my inner Rethuglican showing, it is that many of you are acting like nuts. It makes me sick.
nightjar
Yes, but it won’t your car go. Can’t invade China, it would put Walmart out of Bidness, and besides, they’d just sick the Bill Collectors on our sorry in-debt asses, and that would be that.
liberal
John Cole wrote,
I respect your tactical points, but I think they’re empirically invalid.
Why? Because I think the mushy drifting to the center and attempting to placate the right will gain him few votes, and at the same time cost him votes. Not so much votes of people to his left, but people in the middle who get the feeling that Democrats don’t stand for anything, and furthermore are personally weak for refusing to maintain their stance. (Yeah, I know, McCain has flipped-flopped more than any presidential candidate in recent memory. IOKIYAR, though.) There’s been some decent writings in the blogosphere about that stuff recently by Greenwald and others.
Vis-a-vis abortion, the people who really feel strongly about it won’t feel placated until women (well, women who can’t afford a plane ticket to Canada or Europe) are forced to bear the child of their rapist. (Why the Dems and pro-choice crowd don’t focus on that tidbit, I don’t know.)
Grommit
Democrats won in 2006 with a bunch of conservative, pro-gun Democrats. A lot of them were against the Iraq war but let’s not kid ourselves that we got a bunch of pure liberals elected. The Netroots seemed far more pragmatic and savvy in that election then they seem to be during this one.
I’m so fucking sick of the ongoing FISA hissyfit. It’s made most of the Democratic blogs completely unreadable. You’re pissed? Well go try and get Steny Hoyer kicked out of his seat! He’s the one that caused this mess-not Barack Obama. Fucking Naderites are going to cost us this damn presidential election again.
nightjar
That’s an improvement over the overly broad
I would describe it more like “some”.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Hang in there John. Becoming a true blue Democrat is a long and painful process. There are stages to it:
Denial
Anger
Bargaining
etc…
it sounds like right now you are somewhere between Anger and Bargaining. Keep drinking, it gets better. At least you aren’t a loyal subject of a British monarch!
liberal
Wilfred wrote,
I don’t understand the worry that a withdrawal could turn into a rout.
We have so much more firepower, and our people are so much better trained, that there’s no way we’d be routed. Just like right now, any large set-piece battle, we crush them.
Problem with staying, of course, is that superiority in firepower can’t do anything but lengthen the occupation, and IMHO history shows it won’t do anything to stabilize Iraqi politics and society in the long run.
So might as well pull out now.
liberal
cbear wrote,
That misses the point, which is that we’ve seen a series of unnecessary Democratic caves. It’s pretty understandable to conclude that the Party leaders are a bunch of pathetic pussies, and to be extremely pissed about it.
The recent FISA cave, the unwillingness to truly investigate the Bush administration’s criminal conduct leading us to war, etc, etc.
People that go as far as “I’m not going to vote for Obama now” really are ridiculous, because they don’t understand that (a) the choice is McCain vs Obama, not some fantasy (as JC has noted repeatedly), (b) voting with your feet isn’t going to help move the Party to the left.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Chill out dude. It’s mid-summer. Nobody except politics junkies is paying any attention to these clowns, and the last time I checked most of the ordinary voters I know have finally figured out that the MSM are a pathetic collection of tools and fools who couldn’t pour piss out of a boot if you wrote the instructions on the heel and told them where to find it.
If you spend less time reading WaPo and NYT and WSJ and more time at 538.com (check out Obama’s poll numbers on Nate’s SuperTracker trendline – showing steady upward climb ever since mid-March, now up to a 4-7 point lead which would translate into a solid 300+ electoral vote win), it will do wonders for your blood pressure.
gil mann
I gotta say, people who hold me in contempt are usually a lot prettier.
Joshua Norton
The reason we fight:
“And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.”
SadieSue
I’ve been reading you a long time (since before you changed parties) & usually really enjoy your comments. I’ve also never commented here before. I’m not quite sure what set you off but it’s not *all* Democrats doing this.
I will admit to being one of the ones who was devastated when I heard Obama’s FISA shuffle – I don’t ask a lot from politicians anymore but I *do* ask that they either keep their word or explain the reasons behind the change in their vote/opinion. But as much as I am still not happy with this change or with the lack of an explanation, I am still going to vote for him, work for him, & give money to him. I just needed a few days to *be* devastated & I think a lot of people who have been working so hard for him also needed time to deal with this.
So, with that in mind, I do agree with your rant a little bit in that there are, in all aspects of society, people who set standards that no one can ever live up to. I don’t expect perfection, I don’t expect unwavering opinions (we’ve had that as others have mentioned & it sucked), but some people do expect that & they are very vocal when that perfection is marred or that opinion is changed. I would rather that we elect the best person we can (& it ain’t McCain) & continue to hold him, & Congress, accountable. So, as devastating as I found the FISA announcement, it is indeed short-sighted to immediately dump support for Obama.
In the interest of full-disclosure: I am a member of the mybarakobam.com group Senator Obama – Please Vote NO on Telecom Immunity – Get FISA Right (telling him how I feel is important; threatening him is not) & am also a life-long yellow dog Democrat.
PS It’s raining & chilly here in WMass as well.
pinola
Your use of the word ‘you’ when addressing all Democrats as a bunch of pet issue-obsessed watbs, determined to derail Obama’s campaign, is unfair.
pinola
LeftTurn: nailed it
Maggie
Not so. There are a lot of people who care strongly about abortion, but who (a) wouldn’t take the extreme position you outline here and (b) may even recognize that the country isn’t ready to move to whatever position they do take but who (c ) need to see some walking back from the extremism on the other side. Most Americans are NOT in favor of abortion on demand throughout the entire pregnancy for any reason whatsoever.
Obama’s very slight moderation of what is otherwise an extreme pro-choice stance might well offer just enough of a thread of compromise to make it possible for pro-life voters who are tired of being enthrall to the Republicans to vote the other way this time.
John Cole
FLIP-FLOPPER. Obama can’t be trusted. He is no different from every other politician. If Obama won’t support abortion all the time any time day and night, you know damned well he is going to put pro-life justices on the court. I have sat by too long and watched other Democrats sabotage the Democratic party, and I am going to hold Obama responsible for 30 years of suck.
/leftwingbloggers
pinola
Oh, John, have you not noticed how little attention is paid to left-wing bloggers by the msm? When the mainstream Dems take their money and then denounce them, how much power do you think these folks have?
gbear
liberal, cbear’s a different bear. please don’t hold him responsible for my halfbaked ramblings…
I agree with you that the Dems have a really bad habit of caving on stuff and should be held to account for it.
My beef with FDL is that so much of their writing and commenting comes from some mountaintop order of pristine political enlightenment. Commenters really do post that they’re ‘so outraged that I can hardly write thru the tears streaming down my face’ when their issue takes a hit.
That, plus they’re willing to spam anyone who’s ever sent them an email.
liberal
El Cid wrote,
Exactly. The Party rank-and-file was pissed off about the war, and the Democrats didn’t completely hide on the issue. Result: spine grown, election successful. Just like Greenwald says.
Joshua Norton
You’ve found intelligent comments at FDL? I’ve given up. It’s not worth scrolling through the mental farts to find anything worth reading. Someone will post a well thought out and researched article and when you go to the comments “you find:
“Frist!”
“Giggle -”
“Hi Jane.”
“Anyone want coffee?”
“Whoop!!!!”
“I’ll have a cup”
…and about 30 more of the same after that before anyone with half a brain comments on the content of the article.
No thanks.
rawshark
Damn. You sure react badly to weather. (wait, should that be ‘react bad to weather’, am I implying his mechanism for reacting is not working correctly?)
Redleg
I appreciate John’s point about how many Dems seem to have specific pet interests that must be met by any Democratic hopeful. At times it makes the Democratic party seem like an unorganized grabasstic clusterfuck. I would like to see the party build a platform that encompasses our broadly shared interests (e.g., the economy, war, civil rights) rather than getting bogged down in the no-win issues.
I also dislike the way we throw our losing candidates under the bus when they lose a close election (e.g., Gore, Kerry). Those are my main complaints but I am still a strong Dem and believe that most Dems will come together in November to either support Barack Obama or to prevent McCain from winning.
Pillsy
Quite a few folks in the left-blogosphere—including ones who should absolutely know better, like Greenwald—have decided to use their rage over FISA as an excuse to validate the tried-but-true “flip-flopping pandering Democrat” narrative that everybody was complaining about when it was deployed against Kerry. A lot of this is over completely consistent positions (the faith-based stuff) or spectacularly innocuous politicking.
“OMG, Obama endorsed a Democrat who came out for him early in the primary process!”
“WTF?! Obama is distancing himself form an attack launched by a surrogate?”
Obama’s blows it on FISA, and all of a sudden the Republicans and the Village Bobbleheads are 100% right about him. I’m beginning to think that the way the GOP frames every Democratic candidate as a big old wimpy waffle isn’t effective because Republicans believe it, or even because independents believe it. It’s effective because Democrats believe it.
liberal
Maggie wrote,
Then why do they vote Republican?
IIRC the Republican Party platform wants to extend 14th Amendment due process rights to fetuses.
That means, not only would abortion be illegal in case of rape and incest, it’s possible it would be illegal even if the mother’s life is at stake.
And, by the way, what’s “extremism” on the other side? Roe is currently the law of the land, and AFAICT 98% of pro-choice people favor the basic structure of Roe: no restrictions up through the second trimester, and only life and health of the mother after that.
Restrictions in the second trimester might be reasonable if cheap, good health care were available to women, but it’s not.
Dulcie
This cannot be repeated often enough. Why Steny Hoyer decided that this was a good time to bring up the FISA battle again is beyond me, but he’s the person responsible, and he’s the person that needs to be punished.
liberal
Joshua Norton wrote,
I have to admit, I don’t read FDL unless there’s a link to there.
It does sound like Eshaton’s comments, though, where the signal-to-noise ratio is about zero.
gbear
No. It was sarcasm about the in-group attitude.
kate r
You tell us, John! We also like abuse. It just reinforces what we already suspected.
We suck!
Ted
Well, well. What a nice sentiment. You know, a great deal of us Democrats actually ARE pragmatists, realize that this election is NOT in the bag, and we CAN’T get everything we want. So we shut up and support the Democratic candidate.
And regarding commenter Keith’s remarks above, this is simply not an acceptable response, John:
Plenty of us, myself included, have spent WAY too much time on even this fucking blog alone trying to get those asshats to STFU and stop bashing Obama over FISA. That 90% Non-Suck is utterly better than 0% Non-Suck (McCain), and that bitching about FISA only helps the Decrepit One.
But in the spirit of the celebration of the day, you are of course free to trash us all together.
John Cole
Umm, Happy 4th?
Michael D.
Ran the Peachtree Road Race 10k today. First timer. 1:07. Would have been a shorter time but, well, there were 50,000 other fucking people blocking my way! :-)
mrmobi
One thing this political season has impressed upon me is that we “nutroots” types really do have our share of informationally-impaired, tinfoil-hat-wearing, god-damned idiots. For a few examples, just visits the comments section at Talk Left, where they are cheefully calling themselves “democrats” while trashing the democratic nominee in virtually every thread. Jeralyn and Armando have created a monster, and have no desire to return to rationality, page views and such being more important.
P.Luk and LowIQ are frequent visitors there, of course.
Dave Ruddell
I bet they were all Democrats. Those contemptable fuckers.
Ed
sweet jeebers John – thanks for the tongue lashing
Cujo359
Well, yes, I’m sure they’d be much better people if we all just agreed with and supported everything they said and did. That’s gotten the Republicans where they are today, certainly. Why don’t we just get with the program?
If you’re not kidding, then it’s probably a good day to take a break. Go celebrate all those values of Independence Day, like being part of the debate about our country’s future, and fighting for your freedom.
In fact, take a month off. Travel around the country. Note that most of us don’t agree on everything. It’s one of the things I like about this country.
What saddens me, John, is that on the day of our country’s independence, when we’re celebrating the fact that a long time ago some of our ancestors got fed up with stupid, autocratic government and tried to make something better, you piss and moan about the people who try to live by that example.
Chuck Butcher
I’m all for a better class of whores.
I’d like to know what makes it inevitible that one of you dweebs will link “pro-gun” with “conservative Democrat?” Every gun advocate Democrat I know is a flaming liberal or farther left.
nightjar
I would salute you, if I had a clue about WTF you were talking about. So Cole is a grouch, that’s not exactly breaking news.
HIllary supporters turned concern trolls really don’t make things better, just more tedious in responding to their, (cough), “we was done wrong” victim tinged concerns that Obama isn’t living up to the standards set by our founders.
You want to throw rocks at every perceived Obama slight of the leftwing mantra, then GTF out of the way to do it, or you can get behind the candidate that has the best chance of fixing Bush’s mess, imperfections and all.
Two choices, Obama or MCcain. That’s it.
Jinxi
Yeah, but how many of “our” issues were flushed right down the toilet? I remember quite clearly many Dems shouting for impeachment, but the Dems won and suddenly impeachment was “off the table”. Then, of course, there’s the handing over of dollars to Bush for whatever the hell he wanted them for. Oh, good days.
At any rate, John, the inner-party bickering takes some getting used to. Make sure to wear a hat when reading blogs, because you may end up sans hair from pulling it all out by the roots. Or wear sunglasses if you’ve a penchant for poking your own damned eyes out because you cannot believe these idiots are nitpicking again (my own personal method of dealing with the complete insanity). Try it with some tequila too- takes the nasty after taste away (somewhat).
We’re a herd of cats. If you keep trying to herd us up you’ll just make yourself crazy.
grendelkhan
Wow. When did you start channeling Arthur Silber? How did that go, again? Ah, yes.
Cujo359
nightjar, you could have stopped at “if I had a clue”. This country wasn’t founded by people who got in line and did whatever the leader said. Obama isn’t going to give people like you the time of day, because he doesn’t have to. He’s already demonstrating that on the FISA issue. He’s flipped us, not to mention the Constitution, the bird with some of the flimsiest excuses imaginable. Not that there are any good ones.
The only way we’re going to get his attention is if we can make it possible for him to lose, or to not govern. That’s the only thing he cares about.
So, yes, Cole’s an ass for saying what he did, because no one listens when you don’t speak up. No one, in short, is going to accept our view on FISA if we just keep quiet. I’m sorry you don’t get that, but then if you read this guy regularly it’s pretty clear you’re not going to.
nightjar
He will join Dodd and Feingold to try and strip out the Telecom immunity. Then you say he flipped because why? He could have stopped it how? He hasn’t actually voted for the bill yet. We don’t know what’s going to happen with the vote. And you would have him vote no on a bill that will pass no matter what he does, so to make you feel warm and fuzzy but give wingnuts ammunition for the GE.
Your anger is misplaced Cujo, it should be directed at the house leadership who could have kept it on ice till after the election. And making a point by making it possible for him to lose is the height of stupid, IMHO. I’m sure MCCAin will do what’s right.
You can’t govern if you don’t win the election. If you really believe Obama has sold you out then fight for your candidate of choice and write in HC or vote for Mccain, or not vote at all. Your choice, but spare us the concern troll drama, we’re already up to our eyeballs in it.
Cujo359
It won’t pass. Count on it. Like everything about Obama, this one’s just for show. If he wanted that bill stopped, all he’d have to do is tell Harry Reid to make the bill go away. He’s the Presidential nominee, Reid wouldn’t argue. Trouble is, Reid and his buddies might take it out on Obama later when Obama needs something. So Obama won’t do it.
So much for leadership.
If Obama made it a priority, it would be on ice now. And what makes you think I’m not angry at the House leadership, besides your unwillingness to check things out before you write them?
A cliche followed by false dichotomy, followed by an insult. Nice job, Voltaire. Concern troll? You don’t even know what the term means. It means someone who comes by and offers stupid suggestions out of “concern”. I’m just telling John he’s a moron. No concern there at all. Just anger and depression at the prospect of having to work through you fuckwits to keep our freedoms alive.
The only power we citizens have in politics is the power to help or hurt a politician’s chances of getting what he wants. If you don’t have that power, or you’re not willing to use it, people like Obama will ignore you every time. If you haven’t learned that by now, you’re a damn fool.
nightjar
Your concerned that Obama isn’t doing what you want him to do and that we “Fuckwits” and “morons” and Obama supporting “pissants” ought to be concerned. Then you suggest we heed your wisdom and withdraw our support, which btw, is the same as supporting the wingnut MCcain. That about cover it?
I said you’re anger is misdirected toward Obama. The fact that you are angry at the HOuse leadership also doesn’t negate the misdirection.
Politics in a democracy is about choices. Sometimes you have the luxury of having an array of choices, and other times, like now, you have two, and two only. I choose to help get this dem nominee elected, and apparently, you choose to be a sanctimonious rock throwing jackass.
And if you knew anything about the rules of the senate, you would know that if you have 60 votes, it is very hard for the majority leader to block a vote on a bill, at least for very long.
“It won’t pass. Count on it. Like everything about Obama, this one’s just for show. If he wanted that bill stopped, all he’d have to do is tell Harry Reid to make the bill go away. He’s the Presidential nominee, Reid wouldn’t argue. Trouble is, Reid and his buddies might take it out on Obama later when Obama needs something. So Obama won’t do it.”
And this is just pure unadulterated bullshit.
Just Some Fuckhead
Cujo, this could very well be the dumbest shit I’ve ever read on Balloon-Juice, and I’ve checked out some of Cole’s stuff in the archives.
You’re not actually costing Obama anything more than the last two Democratic nominees paid, and plenty more of ’em before 42. OTOH, you are condemning plenty of folks to four more years of Republican ruin, people who can’t afford it.
If you must reduce the Presidency to a bullshit equation, try this one: elect our Democratic nominee to the Presidency and if he doesn’t dance to the tune you personally devise on your tin whistle, work to deny him reelection.
Jesus God. We’re doomed with people this stupid walking the earth, being allowed to vote.
Nathanael Nerode
Read the polls. Opposing warrantless wiretapping, supporting Fourth Amendment == popular. Supporting warrantless wiretapping == unpopular. Oh, voting for a bill you promised to filibuster == unpopular.
Perhaps consider that some of us are totally ticked off by Obama due to his political stupidity. Not only is supporting the abolition of warrants the wrong thing to do — he wins nothing by it politically.
Heck, if a Republican did something that unpopular with his base, and that unpopular with independents, and that unpopular with the subgroup of the opposition party which was considering crossing over — he’d get harsh, withering attacks from his side too. (Just look at the pro-choice, pro-gun-control Republicans. A species of Politically Endangered Creature.)
There really is no option except to hammer him for making himself look like a fool; Obama’s only good option now is to reverse course, declare that he hadn’t read the bill carefully enough, and that upon closer reading it is not acceptable. That would cover all political problems as well as possible.
Nathanael Nerode
Oh, and to the very very large group of people who have been totally bamboozled:
*Telecom immunity is not the main issue*. This bill *removes the requirement for an individualized warrant* (which is unconstitutional, thanks to Amendment IV). It *eliminates all effective court oversight of wiretapping*.
Those are the unacceptable provisions, far worse than current law, which Obama has pledged to vote for. Repeat: he has pledged explicitly to vote for those, and has expressed no complaints about them, unlike retroactive immunity.
Nathanael Nerode
El Cid wrote:
“Leaving the Democratic candidates to confidently, boldly, and unanswerably damage their own campaigns seems the greater danger than trying to avert their own tendencies toward stupidity.”
I love this line. Mind if I steal it?
bernarda
OK, we all suck. But why doesn’t the genius Obama even know what FISA is about?