Not sure if I am going to like this show as much- really not into the alien bit they are starting with, but I am looking forward to the David Crosby retrospective.
Meanwhile, in matters political, the continued intransigence of left-wing bloggers and liberal Democratic interest groups that make up part of the Democratic voting block remains completely and totally mystifying to me. The utter unwillingness to allow Obama any latitude in framing his positions on issues so that they are more palatable to independent voters, demanding that he adhere to strict and rigid positions with no room for movement or nuance, appears to me to be an unwitting sabotage of a candidate who has always been a center-left pragmatist. Any slight deviation from orthodoxy, real or perceived as we saw last week with Iraq or today with abortion, is met with derision, assaults on his integrity, and charges of flip-flopping. It is particularly vexing given that Obama is not going to pursue policies that run counter to the general positions that these folks demand and that the alternative, McCain, is completely on the “wrong” side of the issues.
The sum total of this behavior is to validate GOP frames that Barack is a flip-flopper and can’t be trusted (aided, of course, by a media establishment that loves a “gotcha” and is wholly in the tank for McCain), and watching these various interest groups daily hamstring Obama is going to give me an ulcer or high blood pressure or both. I can’t decide what is driving it, but it is maddening. Whether it is a need to feel relevant, the naivete of single issue voters, an unwillingness to recognize the demands of a general election, spite from former Hillary supporters, complete ignorance regarding Obama’s stated position on an issue (see his “flip-flop” on Iraq in which he said the same thing he has been saying for over a year- he will continue to refine his withdrawal policy as he gets additional information), or a desire for accountability after eight years of Bush, the end result is to force Obama into a box on many issues and refuse to allow him the flexibility he needs to win in November.
As I said, it is maddening, and I don’t want an ulcer or high blood pressure, so I think I am going to do my best to ignore it. The GOP and the right-wing bloggers, however, will not, and they will be eager to join you as you vent your spleen attacking Obama on your pet issue. Thanks for being a dupe, and spare me the nonsense that you are, unlike Republicans, just demanding accountability from your candidate. Just to be clear, you aren’t demanding accountability- you are knee-capping him. I never noticed this trait among Democrats when I was a Republican, now, it is crystal clear why Democrats have so much problem electing a President. Trying to unite a bunch of self-serving whiners, even after eight years of disaster, is near impossible (and now watch ten people accusing me of trying to stifle dissent or being a Rethuglican in disguise who just likes a new “dear leader.”).
Consider this an open thread.
PS- there were 2200 spam comments in the moderation queue, and it took 5 minutes for them all to load. If your comment was in there amidst the penis enlarger or cialis spam, it got deleted. I am cranky and not wasting a half hour sifting through several thousand comments to find your pearls of wisdom. My apologies.
*** Update ***
This is a spectacular idea:
So I think those of us who are less than thrilled with the Democratic presumptive nominee should make a rule that in every piece we write criticizing Obama, we conscientiously point out how much wronger and badder and more dangerous John McCain is in every respect.
I would also suggest that only criticizing him for flip-flopping when he actually flip-flops (FISA) rather than when it is alleged he has flip-flopped (Iraq, abortion) might make sense, as well.
Dug Jay
This editorial excerpt from one of his endorsers is probably a good example of what you’re talking about:
Apsaras
Perhaps Barack Obama just needs more of my PATENTED TEETH-LENGTHENING PENIS WHITENING CREAM ACT NOW
SpotWeld
Is there such a thing as left-wing orthodoxy?
Wilfred
The master gave a cup to his student and told him to go to the market and fill it with sugar. Then he smacked him, saying: “Don’t break the cup”. A visitor asked him the purpose of hitting the student now. The master replied: “What good would it do after he broke the cup”?
You were one of the people who gave Clinton a blank check: “I’ll vote for the Dem candidate no matter what”, and then got pissed when she acted like an asshole. What’s the harm in making sure that Obama doesn’t try the same when the siren calls of the Center start to be pitched by the powers that be through their mouthpieces in the MSM?
A political party is neither a Panzer Division nor a troop of baboons. I don’t see the Demcoratic Party acting like either.
John Cole
At least you admit to hitting him before he has done anything wrong. Enjoy president McCain.
AkaDad
John McCain: “I hate the bloggers”
At least Obama doesn’t hate us, as far as I know.
smiley
I don’t get it either, John. How a bunch of people who are clearly political junkies can be so naive and idealistic about how politics works is beyond me. I only hope there’s not enough of them to actually make a difference.
vwcat
Wilfred, because a candidate must move somewhat to a more mainstream position in the general in order to attract indies and moderate republicans in order to build the party and gain the votes needed to win does not mean the candidate will turn into Bill Clinton.
Clinton was always a centrist. Obama is not. But, he is also trying to win and to think that he must be hard core and pure and that will also let him win is fantasy. No one wins by playing only to the base. Bush did in 04 because he was already president. In 2000 he moved to the center.
any politician who is worth his abilities is going to do what he can to win.
You do not make changes unless you are elected.
What is so damaging is that the 100 percent pure crowd have given an opening to the traditional press to push a fake story on Obama and Iraq and will not listen or let it go.
Because the purity patrol are so demanding and cannot understand practical politics 101 in a general election, they have given the press the room they need.
The press has always been enamored of McSprinkles but, were boxed in by having to pretend fairness. When the purity patrol was unleashed the press got the green light to go after Obama and took what has always been his position on Iraq and turned into this faux story of Obama flipping and being a liar.
The purity patrol is allowing the press the latitude to do what they did to Gore and Kerry and now feel they can to Obama.
Until then, they were restrained by the fear that the democratic base would go hard on them if they betrayed the bias for McSprinkles but, now no longer fear that.
Splitting Image
I still say not a chance.
Kerry got pegged as a flip-flopper mainly because his opponent was an imbecile who would stick to a policy for years regardless of whether it was good or not. At this point, nearly half the United States opposes the war after supporting it, outnumbering both the people who still support it and those who opposed it from the beginning. Kerry gains stature at this point as someone who changed his mind sooner rather than later.
Obama might have trouble with the flip-flopper label if he were running against Ron Paul, but he isn’t. He’s running against John McCain, who reportedly has Mitt Romney high on his list of VP choices. If McCain does pick Romney, his chances of winning by portraying Obama as a flip-flopper are zero.
Andrew
what confuses me is his position on the most recent FISA bill. It’s manifestly *not* the centrist position to be voting *for* warrentless wiretapping and telecom immunity; the *majority* of the people do not want either.
Yes, the late-term abortion change is a change from the hard-line left wing position to a more centrist one, but that’s clearly not the case when it comes to his position – he’s moving, in that case, not the center, but away from it, to the hard-line right-wing authoritarian fringe, aligning himself with the 28%-ers, not the vast middle.
Sloegin
Dems are mostly used to giant amounts of dissappointment and uncertainty in politics. Occasionally they’re amazingly unhappy because their guy doesn’t vote the way they want. Not that their guy indicated he would, or ever has voted the way they want, but those are the breaks. Being (D) means voting for what you hope is the rational guy, bitching loudly about it, but mostly cutting your guy a ton of slack.
The alternative is voting for a guy who will always do the predictable thing, even if that thing is tantamount to facism and organized crime, because you’ll have the news 24/7 telling you that the thing your guy did was the right & honorable thing, the heroic thing, and shut up already.
TheFountainHead
Welcome to the Democratic Party, John, where it’s not whether you win or lose, it’s how you think you’re playing the game better than everyone regardless of the fact that there are no rules.
Rosali
I’m worried. Was it the FISA flap that made you cranky and made you lose the will to blog?
mark
And get off my lawn!
Soylent Green
“Senator Obama, are you King of the Progressives?”
“You say that I am.”
“Crucify him! Crucify him!”
benjamin
Alleluiah ! Thanks for saying EXACTLY what I have been thinking for the past two weeks ! I have taken half of the progressive blogs out of my RSS feeds because I just can’t take the whining and bitching anymore.
YAY for keeping Balloon Juice in !
Incertus
Nope, and there never has been. This is the time of the year when my thoughts turn more toward local and state races, because if you haven’t made your mind up on the national one by now you’re a fucking idiot. Especially this year. The purists can go fuck themselves.
mnsmom
I second benjamin’s response.
Bob In Pacifica
Wouldn’t it be more like the master has two students and he says, “I haven’t decided which student I will send to the market to get a cup of sugar, but I’ll punch young Barack because I don’t want him to break the cup”?
Myself, I’ve had it with cranky masters who don’t understand the terrain. There are some mean-assed cupbreakers between the master and the market. If you don’t know about the cupbreakers why the hell are you beating someone for someone else’s cupbreakers?
You know.
Frankie T.
John, as part of your welcoming gift for joining the Democratic Party, you too can be entertained for years to come by watching the part of our coalition that is never satisfied with nuance and half a loaf torpedo our candidates for their lack of purity. It’s not politics as the art of the possible…it’s politics as the art of the perfect. I think this time around we’ve got a great candidate who’s going to attract a lot of moderates and win. We can relax and enjoy the sideshow from our colleagues who will be holding their breath and turning blue for the next several months.
bs23
@Wilfred: I think there’s a big difference in criticizing a position and what John’s pointing out here. The difference between, say, Glenn Greenwald’s criticisms of Obama on FISA-related matters, and the quote from Ariana Huffington labeling Obama’s politics ‘realstupidpolitk’ (from the editorial Dug Jay refers to). Or John’s own criticism of Obama regarding “the continued snub of Muslim-Americans” . Gotta keep it focused on the issues and keep from drinking the kool-aid of Obama as the savior-who-failed.
The general election isn’t about voting for your dream candidate (lesson learned, thank you, Nader.) Similarly, when you go to Washington as a representative/senator, you aren’t going to remain ideologically pure. It’s democracy, and there’s a lot of compromising involved. No, you don’t want to sell your soul, but this is how the game is played. And precisely one thing lefties don’t like about how Bush/Rove plays.
And all of this ignores the real promise of Obama’s campagin anyway: getting voters more involved in politics. The group on his own website calling him to rethink his position on FISA did get a reaction. Not, in my view, a particularly good one, but getting the conversation going is pretty important by itself.
Fulcanelli
Good post, John. My sentiments, exactly.
Welcome to the ulcer-inducing world of Democratic Party politics, unfortunately. Sigh…
RoonieRoo
Personally, I’ll go with the conspiracy theory. I think some of this is driven by Right-wing plants. Not that a lot of the bloggers/commenters are plants themselves but they are being manipulated by the right-wing plants.
It’s been driving me nuts seeing how many of the left-wing bloggers are actually repeating the GOP talking points and the AP wire stories without any critical thinking attached. It’s the newest “Rovian” plan.
Instead of getting the right-wing bloggers to put out the GOP message, trick the left-wing bloggers into doing it for you.
Andrew
Well, it’s also important to keep in mind that 95% of the electorate isn’t paying attention to anything over the summer besides high gas prices on their weekend trips to the beach.
Best we let the standard Democratic self-destruction play out now as opposed to after the convention.
flyerhawk
It seems to me that there are 3 distinct groups pushing the flip-flopper meme.
1. GOP agitators – While they are very familiar with the flip-flop line of attack they were pleasantly surprised to see it being levied by Democrats. They are doing whatever they can to continue this meme.
2. PUMAs – There is a notable contingent of Hillary supporters who want Obama to fail simply because he defeated Hillary in the primary. Nothing can be done to assuage them. So whenever any sort of criticism is levied against Obama they are the first ones to scream it from the parapets. It doesn’t matter to them if the criticism is logical. It doesn’t matter if it applies to Hillary as well. Defeating Obama is the only thing that matters.
3. Liberal truly believers – Sooner or later these guys were going to feel betrayed. They keep waiting for Obama to show his true uber-liberal colors but it isn’t going to happen. Obama is a center-left politician. To suggest otherwise is foolish.
Obviously group 1 is unimportant. Group 2 will slowly evaporate, especially after the conventions. Group 3 will stay disillusioned but mostly still vote Obama.
What sucks is that we are going to keep seeing this sort of stupid for the next 2 months.
cleek
i just think the netroots overestimates its own power and simply can’t abide politicians who don’t obey its edicts. we then assume the candidate’s motives are evil, or at least venal – why else would they ignore us? after all, who would know politics better than a bunch of people who’ve never done it?
pinola
Totally OT, but John Kerry really needs to lay off the botox.
mapaghimagsik
I think the idea that being annoyed with a shift to the religious right (on faith based initiatives, for example) isn’t tantamount to welcoming president McCain. I think using facebook (I think it was facebook-blackberries are horrible for research) to show disappointment with the switch in FISA positioning was a smart move.
I will never be able to move in lockstep, unfortunately, and unfortunately, the Dems are too smart for the “libruls changed my vote” crap that the republicans pull when thay screw the religious right.
So yeah, craft your dissent carefully, and save the real ammo for “I can’t keep four planes in the air” McCain, and the villagers that love him.
georgia pig
It is pretty exasperating to see comments like this. Like you are absolutely sure what the “majority position” is on wiretapping? Those kind of arguments are useless because they rely on some abstract notion of the American public having a collective mind. Moving to “the hard-line authoritarian fringe”? Give me a fucking break. We’ve heard the arguments re FISA ad nauseum. It sucks, but it’s a loser and “better” FISA bill is not going to save the 4th amendment if McCain is elected. Bottom line, McCain will put more troglodytes like Alito and Roberts on the Court and all the FISA wailing and gnashing will be for naught, as FISA is meaningless if the Court interprets the 4th Amendment out of existence. So, respectfully, suit up for today’s game and quit bitching about the pitcher throwing a slider when you wanted the heater. No doubt you”ll have plenty of opportunities to bust Obama’s balls when he’s in the White House, ’cause lord knows, he ain’t Jesus.
Libby Spencer
I agree there is way too much one issue bitching and I’m as disgusted as anybody about the brouhaha over his Iraq and abortion statements. Jumping on him for every single thing is stupid and counterproductive. Welcome to the Democratic party. We don’t do message discipline and there is no 11th commandment here.
However, I continue to maintain that the FISA fight is not only worth it but absolutely necessary and I don’t understand why everyone is not on board with that. What is it about the Fourth Amendment that anyone thinks is unimportant? It’s not just the telecom immunity, although that’s what gets all the attention. The new bill effectively negates the Fourth. It’s a bad bill and it needs to be killed.
Robert M.
What bs23 said.
It’s a conundrum for a lot of progressive voters: you have to get someone into office in order for them to have any influence, but if your guy has to sell his progressive convictions in order to get to office, you haven’t really won anything.
In a two-party system, the only rational solution is to hold your guy’s feet to the fire as much as you can, and then vote for him anyway.
Of course, there’s a difference between that and buying into Republican memes about Dem candidates, but the difference is one of emphasis rather than action. You can criticize Obama’s position on FISA without calling him a traitor, or a flip-flopper, and that’s what the best blogs (Digby, Greenwald, etc.) are trying to do.
John Cole
For my part it is that all of the anger and bile is directed at merely ONE of the 100 people who is voting in the Senate. Not the hundred Plus Democrats in the House who joined with the GOP, not the several hundred Republicans in the house, not Steny Hoyer who pushed it, not the dozens of other Senators with a (D) after their name who will vote for it- one person is reaping the shitstorm.
And if people can not figure out how this is not only stupid, but unfair and poisonous in terms of the general election, then they are probably so stupid that they need the government snooping on them so the feds can catch them before they stick wet forks in electrical outlets.
Oh, and the fact that the issue is over and we lost, so all of this is wasted energy. The good guys lost. It is going to pass. The people who think this bill can be stopped (removing immunity is still a possibility, although very remote) to me most closely resemble the folks who thought there was a chance Terry Schiavo could be revived.
jhaygood
I am SO with you on this one. I’ve lurked here for ages and I’ll post on this. You’d think Democrats would have decided if they supported the guy DURING THE PRIMARY! Now you’d THINK they’d let him go out and win the election. But no. Despite the fact that there are voters out there that think he’s a muslim/terrorist/Marxist/anti-American baby-killer, and he’s trying to present himself to them and show he’s, like, not SCARY. But these idiots need some kind of daily validation that he loves them and is super super sensitive to their issue.
He is who is is. He is an amazing opportunity. He’s the best choice out there by MILES. Let’s put him in the freaking WHITE HOUSE and not expect him to wipe our noses for us. These complainers should be out there, organizing and developing supporters for their issues so when he gets elected they can show that he has cover to make some more progressive policy choices. Expecting him to walk the plank for them during the general is lazy and idiotic.
For crissakes, can we just let him win this? Then get out there and organize, get your congress people on board with your issue, and get some good bills written to put on his desk for his signature. THAT’s how you get your pet project through! NOT by forcing Obama make a speech about it now!
Damn. I don’t usually resort to CAPS, but this crap is going to give me an aneurysm… But now I’ll get back to being focused, watching him run his (so-far brilliant) campaign, stop worrying about the idiots and MSM noise, and enjoy my Sunday…
sfpolarbear
Thanks John, for saying this again. It’s nothing new. Look at all the Hillary supporters (and Obama’s as well) that said they would vote for McSame if their candidate lost. It’s the same mentality.
“If I don’t get everything I want, I’m going to take my ball and go home.”
Libby Spencer
I’ll concede there’s too much blaming Obama solely for the failure and I’ve blogged to that point myself early on, saying we have to fight it as an indictment of all spineless Dems and not hold him solely responsible. But neither can I condone his justifying his support using a false GOP meme. It’s a fine line, that I hope I haven’t crossed.
And I think those that are actively still trying to win this fight are targeting all the Dems. Greenwald and FDL’s ActBlue thing is specifically geared to pressure all the BushDogs.
As for it being a done deal, maybe so. But it was supposed to a done deal back in December, before the holiday recess and we’ve managed to stall it this far. I don’t see the point in conceding now. If we lose, we lose. We never expected to win, but I believe in going down fighting for something this important. We may still be able to stall it until after the election. It’s worth trying I think.
ThymeZone
Precisely and exactly correct. I never know what to do when you say what I been yelling, and say it more succinctly than I do. I could retire and take up growing tulips, I don’t know.
There is a reason why Dems suck at national elections, and this is it. Dems don’t know how to unite behind a candidate for 120 days and get him elected. Republicans do. This is so simple and obvious, you’d think even the idiot Dems who post here could figure it out. But, I digress.
The thing is, if Dems really don’t like the way things are after 8 years of GOP reign in the White House, then they need to consider the possibility that they should learn from the party that owns the White House and see how they did it. It’s about discipline, message, and keeping your eye on the ball.
My suggestion, John, would be for you to show your flock how to do this. You have the knowledge and the chops. And believe it or not, people here listen to you.
Bill H
My candidate, right or wrong. He’s my candidate, he can do no wrong. I will brook no criticism of him, will hear no evil of him, will admit to no error of him, will see no flaw in him.
Where have we seen this before? Oh, yeah, they’ve kept him in office for eight years.
flyerhawk
See that’s the problem, Bill H. You think that any defense of Obama means that he is above criticism. John has already stated, in no uncertain terms, that he believes that Obama was weak on FISA. Personally I’m disappointed with all Congressional Democrats save about 4. But what’s the point in obsessing about it? What’s the point in framing every discussion with the “He’s a flip-flopper” smear?
I don’t know why Obama gave up on this issue. Maybe his staff felt it was a loser and he needed to save his bullets for the next fight. Maybe he really believes this bill is acceptable. I don’t know.
But I sure as heck don’t want to see 4 more years of Bush government because of one stupid but reversible bill.
ThymeZone
And so, the idiots show up like flies on a bologna sandwich.
Apparently some of you are so stupid that you would look at an operation that uses discipline, focus and political common sense to win elections and advance a toxic agenda, lies cheats and steals, installs their cronies into positions of power and takes all the silverware, corrupts and ruins every corner of government, and rigs the Supreme Court for twenty years of reactionary jurisprudence, and then concludes that the discipline, focus and political common sense must be at fault.
See, idiots, the discipline and focus just get you in the door. It’s the agenda that you bring in with you and the ideas that drive the agenda that will determine the outcome.
Tell me that you aren’t so stupid that you can’t see that?
Nah, don’t bother. I already know better.
This election is the Dems’ to win or lose. If you want to see how the Dems can throw away this opportunity, just read the BJ comments sections. The losers have set up shop here and they won’t be denied their time in the sun.
scarshapedstar
What the hell are you talking about? I demand to see something, anything, indicating that independent voters are chomping at the bit for telecom immunity. This may flag me as a “single-issue voter” but this cave in particular was especially galling to hear the ol’ “tacking to the center” defense used for because the Immunity Caucus exists only in David Broder’s imagination and Cloud Cuckoo Land. I can at least see using the argument for Iraq, healthcare, faith-based welfare, etc etc. But you can’t lump FISA into that category. That’s a sleight-of-hand. Sorry.
slightly_peeved
My response to these people is this: why should non-progressive Americans buy a set of goods they’ve never tried?
Such voters assume that because they love progressivism, everyone will love progressivism provided it’s explained right. The bad news is they don’t. The good news is that once they get to try progressive ideas like universal health care, they’ll probably want to keep them. Everywhere else that universal health care’s been introduced, suggesting it be taken away becomes electoral poison.
Suggesting that Obama campaign on untried ideas is putting the cart before the horse. America won’t vote for progressivism until they get to try it, and the way to give them that chance is help Obama to win big.
MH
The reason the left is so angry over these things is that it’s much easier (historically) to be too flexible than not flexible enough. “Independent voters” mostly agree with the mainstream-Democrat policies, when they’re presented without reference to party. But they “know” that Democrats won’t fight, and can’t abide that. If Obama would stop trying to get his very own Souljah moment and go on the freakin’ attack, you’d see the complaint well dry up.
Pushing for Obama to be “flexible” helps McCain by advancing the old meme of DEMOCRATS=WEAKNESS, REPUBLICANS=STRENGTH. Narratives like that are what “independent voters” vote on, not policy, and when Obama clarifies, nuances, refines, and defines, he’s wasting time that would be better spent portraying him as a fighter.
slightly_peeved
The great majority of people are of the view: “I don’t like his position on FISA, but I can see why he might want to play it safe.” Or “This sucks, and once he’s in office, I will campaign hard for him to change that position.” Or even: “McCain is far, far worse on this and other constitutional issues, so I’m still entirely clear on who I wish to vote for.”
Beat that strawman! Beat it good!
ThymeZone
While I agree with much of your remarks, I strongly disagree with that one, and I think that this is the crux of where disagreement might lie.
Obama faces a political middle that is infuriating and stubborn and hard to convince about almost anything. But like it or not, it’s the middle that decides national elections, and Obama has literally just a few weeks to win over enough of these voters to win an election.
He is liberal, he is black, he is young, he is still new to the political scene, and he is a very large target for a very large and effective noise machine. He has a lot of work to do. He is a powerful candidate, he is brilliant, and he is capable of doing this impossible thing. What he needs from the likes of us is support and teamwork.
I disagree that portraying himself as “a fighter” is what he needs to do. He did that when he won a primary against a powerful opponent who had a big head start. He does not need to prove that he is a fighter, he needs to prove that he is friendly enough to that political middle to earn their votes in the first week of November.
John McCain has been trying to do that for two years. Obama has been trying to do it for three weeks. Let’s let him do it. I think he is going to do very well at it.
Wilfred
I tell a wry Sufi story on non-linear thinking and get accused of picking on Obama – Redstate Redux.
ThymeZone
Actually, you can. FISA is not the basis for a vast engine of government malfeasance and deceit wrapped around national defense and intelligence. It is but a small and largely irrelevant symptom of that large ball of shit. You are trying to reverse 75 or so years of government theft of constitutional restraint and government stifling of public scrutiny in one stroke, against a target (FISA) that is just a small thread in a large tapestry of shit.
FISA right now is mostly a symblic battle, one that was deliberately set up to trap Dems into a no-win fight. Fight that battle in February when you have a Dem in the
White House. Not now.
Joe Max
Bill H Says:
Besides being a ridiculous over-simplification, notice what the operative phrase is here: “…kept him in office for eight years.”
Yeah, we should be so lucky with Obama.
Do you think Bush did everything to make the freepers and Christopaths happy? If so, you haven’t been listening to them. Did he make them a lot happier than Gore or Kerry would have? Absolutely yes, and they know it. So they supported his ass for eight years because it got them some of what they wanted, if not all.
God damn, liberal Democrats are such idiots. It’s like Jon Stewart said about MoveOn.org: “Celebrating ten years of making even people who agree with them cringe.”
MH
Let me clarify: he needs to prove that he can fight Republicans. You’re right that he’s already proven that he can fight other Democrats, but you’re wrong in assuming that that equates to “being a fighter” in the public’s mind.
The more he fights Republicans and Republican policy and Republican talking points, the quieter the left gets.
Just Some Fuckhead
Great post, John. Could only have been better if youda taken out about 50% of the bewilderment and substituted venom.
ThymeZone
Yes, I know what you meant. Let me see if I can explain my objection to your argument this way:
The time to prove that point expired when he became the presumptive nominee. For 16 weeks or so, he has to prove to a stubborn and rather parochial middle that he is on their side and safe enough for them to vote for. They really don’t know him that well, not like Dems do. They also don’t despise him, like righties do. They need to be sold.
In February, President Obama can start undoing the damage left behind by Republicans. In July, August, September and October (that’s all the time we have) he has to sell himself to people who don’t think like we do. Or, think at all, perhaps. They are going to react more than think.
Libby Spencer
Bullshit. That’s what we said in 06 and where did that get us? Its the Dems we put in there then that have delivered this piece of crap. This is not a little thing, it’s the final nail in the Fourth Amendment’s coffin.
I’ll say it again. The FISA fight is worth fighting for. Otherwise, I agree that our job is to get Obama elected and we will. For the record, my posts at The Detroit News are almost solely devoted to McCain bashing, to the point where my critics are accusing me of being a front for a 527.
Maybe the difference is, I’m not really a Democrat so much as I’m not a Republican. I suppose you could call me an Independent even though I’m not registered as one. I think both parties have sold us out consistently. Merely putting the Dems in power won’t change a bloody thing unless they understand they can’t just take our votes and do whatever they want to please their corporate masters once they’re in office.
ThymeZone
It is, but I don’t agree on the timing.
Dems can go after this tangle of fecal matter more effectively when they have 60 Senate seats, another 15 House seats, and a Democrat in the White House.
That’s the job that needs attention right now, winning that election.
Timing is everything in this game. And we are up against an opponent who uses these things effectively against us.
Barack Obama is not responsible for FISA. And he is smart enough to realize that it’s not his mission to try to reverse it in the middle of a national campaign.
I support that judgment. The man is pretty politically savvy, that’s one reason I chose him as my candidate.
Just Some Fuckhead
All I saw was you acting like your normal wanker contrarian self. To find out I missed a wry parable designed to illustrate non-linear thinking comes a great surprise.
J. Michael Neal
They aren’t. That’s why Obama is opposing telecom immunity. What he doesn’t want to do is oppose the bill as a whole. I can think of several reasons for this. One is that, while the voters aren’t asking for telecom immunity, they are asking for a bill that allows for wiretapping of our enemies. That they don’t know that the government already can is a serious problem, but not one that it’s easy to educate them about while on the campaign trail.
C’mon people, if you are going to accuse Obama of being a sell out, at least get it right as to what he’s actually selling out.
ThymeZone
As do I, and I have said so plenty of times.
Which is another reason why asking one guy to “fight” it symbolically after 75 years of this abuse from both parties, in a way that does not advance him to victory in November, per his judgment, is just foolish cut-off-nose-to-spite face behavior.
And if we don’t trust his judgment enough to make that call right now, then why would we vote for him? It’s a judgment call, and I trust his more than I trust yours. No offense to you, but that’s a simple and obvious choice I can make without a lot of handwringing.
Dave_Violence
I, too, *was* surprised for a moment. Until I touched base with my collectivism-as-long-as-I-am-amongst-the-rulers Democrat friends.
Bottom line: Dennis Kucinich or no one this time around.
…and I completely understand it. Obama will bring back Clintonite establishment economists into things – which would be GREAT. You’d think, but, alas, it’s counter-revolutionary to go against the grain.
cleek
This is not a little thing, it’s the final nail in the Fourth Amendment’s coffin.
that coffin was sealed and buried a long time ago.
Google “National Security Letter”, if you want to see what real 4th amendment abuse looks like.
Dennis - SGMM
Reminds me of some aspects of the Art world. The second that an artist is commercially successful he or she is immediately labeled a sell-out by a segment of the community. It isn’t that the art or the artist has changed, success alone is proof that they’ve sold out.
Genine
I’m with you there! I’ve quite progressive, but I realize that not everyone is progressive and that we need to get these people aboard in order to get a progressive agenda across.
That’s going to take time, patience, a compromise here and there and framing an issue so that it is palatable for those who aren’t progressive.
Obama has always focussed on creating a working majority and that means not demonizing, ostracizing or denigrating the other side. I am not talking about the politicians, because they want power and will do anything to get it. But I think there are some conservative voters that are basically decent but do not agree with progressive views. If you reach out to them, treat them and their views with respect (not agree with them but be aware of their feelings) you’ll go a long way. Then one starts to find common ground and then maybe people won’t be enemies. We won’t have people thinking red vs. blue but people coming together to solve some major problems we have. You’re not going to get that by saying “I’m right, you’re wrong. I’m morally superior, you’re evil and/or stupid and I win!”
For years the Religious right (and Dobson and Co, still does it) fought focusing on the Environment. They didn’t want to do that because it was an issue of the left and if they started to agree with the left on that, that it might lead to agreeing to other things. They Religious right knows the danger in each side starting to see the humanity in the other and finding common ground. They don’t want their followers to have a nuanced way of thinking because then they might start seeing gay people as human and focusing on poverty might open their eyes to corporate greed and machinations. They know right or wrong, my way or the highway is the best way to keep people in line.
Black and white thinking- its just not for conservatives anymore.
Anyway, I am pissed about Obama’s cave on FISA. I don’t really understand it, but considering what I know of the candidate, I’m sure he had to do it for whatever reason.
His stance on late term abortion. I saw people lose their minds over the “mental distress” comment and I shook my head. I waited until clarification came because I knew that what he said didn’t make any sense. He’s worked with Planned Parenthood, NARAL and even got their endorsement. So it wouldn’t make sense that Obama meant what a lot of progressives thought he meant. When he clarified his remarks, I figured that’s what he meant, but others still weren’t placated. Its just a sad, sad state of affairs.
No one president is going to save us. It is up to us to organize, write to out congress critters, keep on their backs and make them present President Obama with legislation we want. Obama’s motto “Yes we can” is not just about getting him elected, its also about what we can do post-election. Its why I liked him in the first place. Its not top-down. Its everyone working together.
Libby Spencer
Granted. And they’re not going to get educated if Obama comes out and repeats the GOP lies that not passing this bill is going to endanger that ability or that there are current investigations that will have to end if the bill doesn’t pass, to justify his position.
I don’t think he’s obliged to lead on this battle, for all the reasons that have been given here already. But he could support Feingold and Dodd, who are taking the lead. Both he, and Hillary, should be backing them on this.
I don’t expect him to commit political suicide to keep the progressives happy. But the truth is that they could do nothing about FISA and we would still be protected. He could make that point without screwing up his chances to win. Truth is, most people don’t understand FISA and don’t care. He could take a stand here, maybe kill a bad bill and by November, none of those centrist voters will even remember it happened. But the progressives will and they will coalesce and work harder for him if he stands up now.
I also agree with those who are saying, that being perceived as willing to stand up to the GOP will do more good than it would harm him. FISA is the perfect issue for him to do so.
MH
I agree with this, except that Obama isn’t going to sell anyone on himself by spending his time making excuses for his liberal leanings.
One of the best ways to sell a product is to convince people that they’ll be hurt if they DON’T buy it. Instead of carefully explaining and refining his own positions, Obama ought to be drawing contrasts against McCain’s.
Instead of, “We can ban 3rd trimester abortions as long as there’s an exception for the mother’s physical health,” his message should be, “Republicans want forced pregnancy, and I’ll stop them.”
Instead of, “My position on withdrawal can be mitigated by circumstances on the ground and available information,” his message should be, “John McCain, like George Bush and the rest of the Republicans*, is committed to keeping your brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, and children in Iraq for decades. Let’s work together to stop their plans.”
The place for policy nuances is on websites and at campaign stops. Every minute the cameras are rolling, Obama needs to set up a Obama-vs.-the-Republicans choice. Never explain your own position without also explaining your opponent’s.
*Every single person on the Obama team should always refer to McCain while associating him with either Bush, Cheney, or generic Republican party. Every single time, without fail. Association through repetition works on people who don’t pay much attention to politics.
Genine
You know, Balloon Juice is rapidly becoming one of the last bastions of sanity in the blogsphere. Isn’t that one of the signs of the Apocalypse?
Let’s see… rivers and seas boiling… The Four Horsemen… Balloon Juice, an oasis of sanity and rationality… locusts… the moon turning to blood…
Yup, I’m pretty sure I read that in Revelations somewhere.
Dave_Violence
That’s one way the Clinton/Gore did it durring the 1992 campaign: it was always “Bush/Quayle” and it pretty much worked, primarily when referring to the economy.
Libby Spencer
I think that’s exactly right. Framing the argument correctly is important and I guess I’ve said everything I have to say on this so I’m off to compose a new McCain bash or two for the low-info crowd in Detroit.
Thanks to all for a good discussion though.
Doug H. (Fausto no more)
Fixed it. If the Dems had both the White House and a near-impenetrable lock on Congress, what would be left to whine about? ‘Another day of sane government’ isn’t the type of entry that will bring in hits.
ThymeZone
Well, as a practitioner of in-your-face rhetoric, I am sentimentally attracted to that latter approach.
But as a practical political person, I have to go with the more genteel approach at least for the next 16 weeks.
zoe from pittsburgh
This mentality is exactly why I left DC. I worked in liberal politics for 6 years and just couldn’t stomach it anymore. Lefty politics in America seems to be dominated by people who are such purists that any minor advancement toward liberalism is quickly defeated– because they either get everything or are willing to hold out for nothing just so so they can feel full of self-righteous pride. It’s almost as if liberal disillusionment is addictive or we’re afraid to know what winning might feel like.
I’m a proud liberal but I’m also a proud pragmatist. I am not so naive to expect a liberal to make it to the White House anytime soon. I think Obama has progressive ideals but that does not make him a leftist. Anyone now who is suddenly angry about him didn’t really check him out thoroughly before or during the primary. Not that Hillary’s a leftist either. The fact is that a leftist could not win the White House– at least not after our country has been pushed so far to the right by Bush and his cronies.
We need to all band together and help push the pendulum back the other way– it’s going to take a whole lot of patience and pragmatism. Politics is NOT a zero sum game. So everyone stop with the whining and help us win already. Let’s not do the GOP’s work for them, K? There is plenty of time to hold Obama’s feet to the fire AFTER he’s the commander in chief. But now? We need all the kumbaya solidarity shit.
ThymeZone
A junior first-term Senator decided not to throw himself on a bonfire to symbolically go after 75 years’ worth of lousy law and lousy policy and try to make some folks feel better by doing so. In the middle of his run for the presidency.
I don’t think it’s that hard to understand. I’d be worried about him if he decided otherwise.
srv
These are the gears of civilization controlled by the real elite. The folks who can pick up the phone and call the owners/editors of MSM, or the head of any Congressional committee and have their way. That’s how they got Harmon, Pelosi and Reid on board before any of this started. Find me all the “centrists” who are donating to that crews opposition and I’ll show you a whole lot of nothing.
He’s not even fighting any Republican issues at this point, he’s trying to co-opt them. He’s trying to tell those that rule that he’s safer to them than McCain. There are plenty of elite who hate McCain, his ginormous ego, and hear Obama, but McCain has his own lever on the MSM to beat back with.
Genine
I get that, TZ. I really do. But he could have, at least, voted no. He didn’t have to speak on it, but he could have voted no. Even still, I am sure the situation is way more complex than that and he did what he felt he had to. Especially with the superdelegates in needs in August pushing for this thing so hard.
So I am angry with his stance on it, but I don’t hold it against him.
Lihtox
If you’re talking bloggers, then we’re seeing one of the problems of the Internet: a blurring of public and private spheres. Sometimes, a place like DailyKos (e.g.) is a private place for Democratic political wonks to get together; other times, it’s a public platform whose pronouncements show up in the newspaper. It’s perfectly reasonable for Democrats to bitch about some of Obama’s positions in private, while enthusiastically supporting him in public (it would be a little creepy if they didn’t). The problem is, on an Internet forum, you never know when the private will become public.
Consider the alternative, though: if the Dem blogs contained nothing but paeans to Obama, then it would emphasize this “Obama cult” meme which has turned some people off. Having the left bitch about Obama may actually be good for him (gives him a “maverick” image…hmm).
Just Some Fuckhead
John Edwards woulda taken the fight to those bastards cuz he’s always been a fighter for the little ammendments. HRC has thirty five years experience fighting for the hard working white ammendments. That’s why they’re both out there right now leading the fucking charge on this thing. Their heroics make me swoon a little.
ThymeZone
I’m not used to reasonableness around here. Stick around and maybe it will catch on!
Tsulagi
Yep.
Steve S.
John, you’re getting a little worked up over nothing. Post 1976 the Dems have had the House 20 out of 32 years and the Senate 15 years. The Presidency would be split 16-16, or even 20-12 for the Dems, if the 2000 election hadn’t been stolen. The narrative of the Democrats eating their own is getting tedious, the fact is that they’ve maintained their share of the love from the electorate in recent decades even if it’s true. What do you want, a return to the New Deal?
tim
Ah…John is back to calling those who disagree with him STUPID. Always a convincing argument.
Barrack’s sell-out on FISA is the giveaway. It makes no sense, no matter how much BO’s apologists twist themselves into pretzels trying to explain and justify it. How much more evidence do you need that he is simply in the tank for the Gov/Corp/Military establishment.
Turns out the “new kind of politics” smells just like the old.
Tim the Stupid Troll
Just Some Fuckhead
In your case John appears eerily prescient. Or was the rest of your comment deliberately ironic?
John Cole
I am just going to point out that the old John Cole would have told you to go fuck yourself. The new and improved John Cole is just going to let this silliness pass.
Andrew
Just voting “no” and saying “I voted to defend the 4th amendment, one of the very core principles of this country.” and answering the inevitable follow up question with “We can still wiretap any terrorist we want provided a warrant is issued within 72 hours afterwards by a FISA court dedicated to the sole task of issuing said warrants.” seems, to me, to be both safe, strong, patriotic, informative, direct, unapologetic and unlikely to harm his presidential bid in the slightest.
John Cole
Look at the trackback from above “John Cole – Obama Just Showing Latitude in Framing His Positions? | 186 k per second” if you still can not figure out the damage yyou all are doing. his list of Obama flipflops includes:
“The problem is not that Obama has taken “latitude in framing his positions”, it’s that he has seismically shifted on almost every issue that made him the darling of the left.
* Iraq
* Abortion
* FISA
* Public Financing
* Special Interests”
Of those, approximately ONE is a flip-flop, and that is FISA. And with FISA, the rug got pulled out from under him. he didn’t flipflop on public financing, he didn’t change on abortion, he didn’t change on IRaq, yet if you read liberal blogs, they are spouting the same crap you see on right wing blogs.
Well played.
As to this:
What planet are you on? Unless Obama personally grabs a pitchfork, charges Congress draped in an outfit made only of the fourth amendment sewed repeatedly into a garment, there are significant numbers of people railing against him for this. And again, while I think he is taking the wrong side, I think he was forced into a no-win situation.
Ken
As far as domestic policy is concerned, we haven’t had a liberal president since LBJ. And that sonofabitch denied his liberalism even as he transformed American life in a manner not seen since FDR. A transformation of that magnitude isn’t likely to happen again, and will certainly never occur if we don’t stop demanding ideological purity and concentrate on ensuring Obama’s election. Republicans have managed to dismantle much of the New Deal and the Great Society already. Why give them an opportunity to finish the job?
But the problem is, we’re Democrats, and Democrats don’t do discipline. The other party does, and that’s why it owns the fucking White House.
John Cole
And for the love of everything holy, could people please explain the concept of jus soli to the right wing blogosphere.
Alan
John, Here is my understanding of what is going on. First off, lets define things truthfully. (1) “Centrist” means agreeing with the Republicans. (2) Most American’s agree with “left-wing” positions held by the Dirty Fucking Hippy (DFH) wing of the Democratic party, the one you (as an ex Republican) hate so much.
Now, Obama really screwed up here. There is one position held strongly by the DFHs and that is “no amnesty for the telecoms”. And while he felt he needed us, he was all for fighting against this tooth and nail. Now, he flip-flopped and decided that the fight would expose him to right-wing smears. I actually believe he and Hoyer worked together on getting this bill out there since Hoyer would never cross the (hopefully) next POTUS and head of the Democratic party. Oh, yes, some of the commenters have said this is reversible, but AMNESTY is not. Once it has been given, it CAN NOT be rescinded. The rest of the bill, yes, but not the amnesty.
If Obama had stayed firm on amnesty, all the other moving toward the right stuff would have not meant much, but no, he decided that shafting the DFHs on the one issue that is so important to them is the best thing to do since where else can the DFHs go?
Now, John, since you have come to this recently you have no idea how tired the core of the Democratic party is of getting treated this way. This has been going on for decades and I, and many others, are goddamn sick and tired of being treated as an ATM machine whose job is to give the assholes who have run the Democratic party into the ground money and to then shut-up and vote Democratic.
What you are hearing is decades of frustration coming out and quite honestly I can say I blame them. One thing, John, you don’t mention about the Republicans is that they don’t screw their core constituency (big-business). That is how they have gained and stayed in power.
There are a lot of people out there (and I am one of them) that believe that Democrats have been losing elections because the DON’T STAND FOR ANYTHING. I have talked to a lot of low information voters out in the real world and the one thing they say is that there is NO DIFFERENCE between the Republicans and Democrats. I have to agree, just look at the voting record of the “Democratic” congress. The “Democratic” congress has a higher rating amongst Republicans than it does amongst Democrats. The Republicans + right-wing “Democrats” are the controlling power in Congress.
The reason that the low information voters think that Democrats don’t stand for anything is that Democrats don’t. Obama could have made a principled stand to protect the Constitution which would have gained him respect from the political left to the middle but he folded. This whole Steney Hoyer “don’t stand for anything, the mean Republicans might hurt you” approach has killed the Democratic party.
And after two decades of this bullshit, the core of the Democratic party is pretty sick of it. So, we have a difference in opinion. You feel that we should all goose step in unity and that is the way to win. Some truth to that, but we have been biting our tongues for decades, pulling out our wallets, funding much of the Democratic party, and goose stepping of into the sunset. And we have gotten nothing for it. Not a damn thing other then a congress which has a higher rating with Republicans than it does with Democrats. So people disagree with you John, it may surprise you that many of them are just as smart as you are.
Just Some Fuckhead
Haha. With “darling of the left” it sounds like they are confusing Obama with Edwards. I guess everyone’s always been an Obama supporter now that he’s the presumptive Democratic nominee without their help. Suck it, bitches.
tballou
John – I would cut Obama complete slack on every one of his recent triangulations if he had just stood firm on FISA. It is that important. Getting out of Iraq is important, but if it takes 12 months or 16 months doesnt matter as long as we are moving in the right direction. FISA and telecom immunity is all or nothing and a one-time chance only. Get it wrong now and we will be stuck with it forever as we watch the rest of the Constitution sink slowly beneath the waves.
Jody
I’m with you, John. It blows my mind how the perfect is the enemy of the good over here in the left wing.
These idiots are going to be shrieking about the daily MSM-generated Obama outrage right up until McCain walks into the Whitehouse. Then they’re going to blame everyone but themselves.
Because after all, they’re just innocent victims trying to get their issues addressed.
tim
Ah…John is back to telling people he disagrees with to “go fuck themselves” without actually writing the words. Interesting. And always a convincinb argument.
John, Glenn Greenwald is a hell of a lot smarter and more honest than you and me (though of course he never served in the Glorious Military, so he must be ignored). Why don’t you read thru and ponder his writings on BO in the last couple of weeks, all of which is a giant “go fuck yourself” to YOU?
Barry is a sham. Embrace the reality.
I know: I’m a troll.
Tim Trollenstein
LiberalTarian
Are you fucking nuts??
Obama never claimed to be a liberal progressive darling. He just is not that different from Clinton policy-wise. One of his main selling points has always been “I am not rightwing batshit crazy,” but he was never going to be the great savior of Utopia. He has only ever promised to be a thoughtful and reasonably intelligent president–meaning he will not try to chuck out all the crap and start over. He is going to go for perturbing momentum, not reversing acceleration. (Don’t know basic physics? Not my problem.)
Put down the kook aid. Just because a bunch of people wanted him to be a Kucinich in Electable Democratic Candidate Ensemble did not make him so.
cleek
i’d put it this way: disillusionment is fundamental to the liberal mindset. if you are fine with the way things are, and would even prefer things the way they were, you’re probably a conservative. if you look around and see that things could be better if we just _____ , you’re probably a liberal.
Alan
Another DFH: Joe Galloway. Bolded section by me. This is how Obama is now being seen by independents. Way to distinguish yourself from your opponent, Mr. Obama. Write Mr. Galloway a nastygram, John.
From Eschaton (http://www.eschatonblog.com/2008_06_29_archive.html#1116601499655566050):
How Dare They
Dirty fucking hippie Joe Galloway.
Early next week the U.S. Senate will vote on an extension of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, with a few small amendments intended to immunize telecommunications corporations that assisted our government in the warrantless and illegal wiretapping it has grown to love.
That such a gutting of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution even made it out of committee is yet another stain on the gutless and seemingly powerless Democratic majority in both houses of Congress.
That a majority on both sides of the aisle — not least of them the presumptive nominees for president of both political parties — intend to vote for such a violation of Americans’ right to privacy and of the sanctity of their personal communications is a stunning surrender to those who want us to live in fear forever.
Tsulagi
He’s transcending! j/k
When you’re right you’re right. Remember a conversation/semi argument once had with my grandfather. Near the end he said “Just remember this, politicians are as worthless as tits on a nun. They’ll stab you in the back, then come around to smile and shake your hand.” Grandpa was one smart sucker.
John Cole
I read Greenwald every day and largely agree with him on FISA. I will also point out that Greenwald is not one of the people I am talking about- he manages to criticize Obama on the issues without all the “Obama is no different that any other politician” and other assorted pearl-clutching and adoptionk of GOP narratives. In fact, one of the things that upsets Greenwald is he perceives Obama as latching on to GOP narratives.
Keep in mind, though, that I still think FISA is a done deal. That ship, sadly, has sailed.
Just Some Fuckhead
Alright nutroots, yer either skipping yer meds or not taking enough of ’em. Here’s a brief reminder of who the candidates are:
Obama is the black one that ran on a platform of collegial bipartisanship, looking for common ground with Republicans to solve major problems and putting the hyper-partisanship of the past behind us. Edwards is the pretty white one that was promising to fight anything shiny that caught the attention of the lefty blogs. Clinton is the one that was supposed to win because it was her turn, dammit.
Do you need to be reminded of who won or are we cool now?
Glocksman
I certainly can’t prove it and they won’t admit to it, but I personally think the reason the Democratic congressional leadership is so gung-ho about immunity is to keep their own foreknowledge from becoming public.
If Bush had the Democratic leadership briefed on the wiretapping when it first started, it’d explain why asshats like Rockefeller, Hoyer, etc., want immunity.
If this is true and Obama has been told in private, then he knows that even if he came out and said ‘strip it’, Hoyer and Rockefeller would say ‘screw you, bud’ and leave it in.
And that would destroy his run by making him appear unable to keep his own party on message.
I don’t like FISA immunity and I certainly think that the leadership pushing for it needs to suffer, but if the cost of a public fight is to give McCain the White House, then that cost is too high.
Dr.BDH
If your comment was in there amidst the penis enlarger or cialis spam, it got deleted.
So, you may have missed the news that Christopher Hitchens has taken an overdose of Cialis in order to discover what does happen to you if you have an erection that lasts over four hours…
Anita
Pissed me off enough to log in and leave a reply.
*I*’m a left of center pragmatist. Some even suggest that I’m left of Mao. Obama always was RIGHT of center, so when I hear people talk about him “moving right” I figure they had no idea who he was all along. I haven’t seen him move right; he was always there! KUCHINICH is left of center. Too short to be president, but left of center. I’m not knocking Obama; he’s the best we’ve got going this cycle. Just sayin’.
flyerhawk
Glocksman,
I don’t know if the Dem leadership was doing a CYA but I do think that people need to remember that Obama still is just a junior Senator from Illinois. He doesn’t get to define strategy and tactics AT LEAST until the convention.
hydrino
Scary how often the rigid purist dynamic found in religious fundamentalism manifests itself in politics as well. Who the hell wants another ideologue in the damn White house! I certainly don’t. Most people just don’t live their lives in such “intransigence. It borders on madness. Obama knows this, that’s why he’ll survive these saboteurs. I was and still am upset about his support of FISA, but I also can’t help but admire his political craftiness. He can’t win this thing unless he wins over some of the schmoes. These left-wing bloggers need to grow the hell up!
ThymeZone
Yes, but it’s bigger than that. They know, as well as the Republicans know, that keeping the rubes’ attention on FISA keeps their attention off the fact that their thugs are stealing the silverware and the cash out of the vault in the back of the store while they entertain us with this bullshit in the front of the store. And yes, the Dems are part of the charade and have been since at least WWII. Probably longer.
It’s a huge trainwreck-iceberg-of-shit-scamapalooza, and no, they are not going to open that can of worms over FISA, because FISA itself is not important enough one way or the other. FISA is the “watch” shell in a shell game. It’s the one they want you to keep your eye on and think the pea is under.
liberal
LiberalTarian wrote,
Agreed. I don’t see how anyone (the idiots at the Politico excepted) could come to any other conclusion if they looked at his Senate record.
TheWesson
There’s nothing to be gained from supporting the new FISA bill; the ‘center’ contingent of Americans don’t particularly support it (insofar as they even have any idea what it’s about), and the right wing is not going to give hugs to Obama (or even attack him less fiercely) just because he supports one of Cheney’s favorite causes, unlimited executive power.
(The old “Dems soft on terror” smear didn’t work too well in 2006 now did it …)
It’s been terrible to watch this push towards tinpot dictatorhood in the last eight years, and Obama had a chance to make a nice stand against the shithead authoritarians, without even doing himself damage …
I’m very centrist. I like Obama because he seems to have integrity and decency. I was hoping he would do something about America’s drift towards becoming a third-rate banana republic, with “El Jefe” calling the shots. Guess not.
I’ll vote for Obama in November (of course!) but my interest in donating to his campaign is gone. Oh yes — I’m sure McCain would be worse. He’d be FOR authoritarianism, but Obama just DOESN’T MIND IT.
—
Anyhow … what happened? Why would Obama support something that is (a) wrong and (b) he knows is wrong and ( c) gains nothing from supporting and (d) probably knows he gains nothing from supporting. (and (e) loses him the devotion of 15,000+ harder-core supporters, if the MyBarackObama.com anti-FISA group count means anything.)
There had to be some kind of deal made. Somebody among the Dems needed that FISA bill to pass, and made it in Obama’s interest to not only not try to torpedo it (or simply vote against it w/o a show of passion) but actually to lukewarmly support it.
So what happened ?!?
crack
John,
You are an independent voter. Is retro-immunity a winning issue with you? Why do people keep thinking that this is a winning issue with ‘centrists’? What independent voters exist that think the best move is caving to Bush? WTF?
Truly independent voters are rejecting Bush over just these issues. I can’t understand how you can reject the Republicans as the craven beasts they are and think that somehow people who support them on this are coming to Obama.
If Obama had come out strong against FISA would you think more or less of him? YOU, John Cole, are the demographic Obama can win. He can’t win dead enders. Do you support the current FISA bill on its merits? If not, who is Obama aiming for? The American Conservative is against it. Who are the people this is a winning stance with and in what reality are the going to vote for Obama?
Chuck Butcher
I am a very left Democrat, have been for 40 years. The last President I saw with a shot a getting anywhere in my neighborhood was LBJ and Vietnam screwed that. I know that my orientation isn’t reflected and people will not get elected if they adopt me. Some of them will know how to look good going down in flames, but that isn’t getting elected. I’m not going to get what I want – period – but I might get some of it if I act reasonably.
Bills almost never get to the floor for a vote without the results known. Occassionally somebody throws a monkey wrench, but the work is done outside the floor. The floor speeches and shot down amendments were put there for looks.
I say what I think, I criticisize bills and etc but I’ll be damned if I’ll throw rocks at Obama, he never pretended to be me and he ain’t me. I’ll bet you I’m one hell of a lot closer to his personal beliefs than McCain is, but he’s never claimed me so why should I him? Or blast him? He’s a politician, a Chi-town pol from where they play a rough and twisty version of the game and he’s been successful.
If you’ve played messianic thinking and are now disappointed to find out there is no such thing in politics, that’s your lookout. It’s silliness.
HRA
This brouhaha over FISA reminds of the same attitude over the Patriot Act where I spend my 5 days a week in a U. library setting. A lot was said then about not adhering to the Act when the govt. agents came calling for information on students’ reading habits and when they did come there was only cheerful compliance with the request. It has never changed.
When I first saw an awful boring speech by Obama in the early days that was somewhere out in a field, I thought this man a loser. At some point there was a reversal in my opinion as there was a reversal in how his message was presented. What I did find most persuasive was his message on Iraq. Yes, there are those of us who have not been at all vocal in our non-support of the war in Iraq and we do fully understand his position on it. We don’t abide by the other side’s interpretation of his statements at all. We are not swayed by Rovian tactics at all.
For the record I switched from one party to the other in the 1900s. I would guess I am politically moderate and in the center as is my husband, too. We will vote for Obama and we do support his campaign. Supporting a campaign is a first for us.
Conservatively Liberal
Thank you John. BJ is a small island of sanity in the sea of insanity that the left blogosphere has become. My wife and I have decided to re-register as independents (no party affiliation) because we can’t stand the noise of the left wing pet-peeve purity machine. We do not want to be associated with the mess that the Democratic party is. We registered as Democrats to vote for Obama in the primary, and we can vote for him in the general without being a part of the gloriously oblivious mosh pit on the left. Our daughter is thinking about following suit, but she is young and willing to give it a shot. My wife and I both have been there, done that, and are unwilling to do so again.
I am sick of the hand-wringing and Chicken Littles of the left, along with a good number of Republican ratfuckers who are tossing chum in the water for the shark jumpers on the left, who are running around doing their best to kneecap Obama instead of focusing on the real culprit in the FISA mess or on those of the other 533 members of Congress who are voting to pass this bill. Noooo, it is all Obama’s fault! If he would only step up and lead and do everything they say he should, only then would they clam up!
Fat chance of that. The jumping on his alleged shifts in Iraq or abortion statements only shows me that there are a lot of former Hillary supporters and their ratfucker ‘friends’ who are spoiling for a fight. While I am sure that there are some honest Obama/purity types who are angry about this, I will bet that they are in the minority among the complainers. They are looking to conflate anything they can to prove their meme that Obama is unsuitable for office. If it wasn’t FISA, it would be Iraq, abortion or whatever next week and the week after that brings them.
This fight is one for the Democrats to lose, and if these asshats have their way that is what will happen. I was dumbfounded to find that the Great Kos has not given a dime to Obama yet. Yup, all talk and NO ACTION, that describes Kos. And on top of that, Kos says that he will withhold support for Obama unless he changes his FISA stance. Lets see, not a cent to Obama, and Kos will not continue his (non) support of Obama unless he changes his stance on FISA.
Nothing + Nothing = Nothing
Despite the purity trolls, Hillary supporters and ratfuckers, we are voting for Obama come hell or high water. Obama can’t do a damn thing for the whole country unless he is elected, despite what some would like you to believe. Right now he is a weak possible leader of the party, and only one (junior) vote among 535 votes. To dump this all in his lap is only sheer stupidity or a deliberate action, nothing more than that. Oh, and never mind that the person who is really responsible for this mess subscribed to Hillary’s notion that the super delegates should vote for who they want and to ignore the will of the voters if they deem it right. I call that person an undeclared Hillary supporter, and there is little reason for him to bring this up other than to hurt Obama, IMO.
So I have been avoiding responding to the blathering and ‘teh sky is falling!!!’ asshats who are braying like the asses they are on blog after blog. The finish line is November, there are two contenders and only one will win.
Which one do you want to win? Does it matter to you at all? Do you even care? If not, then you are deadweight and a drag on Obama. Fuck you very much, each and every one of you asshats. You are feeding the MSM, and they are loving the fact that you are giving them an excuse to roll right over Obama, and they will quote you just to show that they are only reporting the news, right?
Idiots. John had it right the other day when he said he was disgusted with your spew. Same here.
crack
CL:
Who are these mythical voters Obama is winning with his FISA stance? Are you pro-retro immunity? Who are the people that were thinking McCain, but then heard Obama decided that retro immunity was OK and switched to Obama volunteers. Find me one person anywhere who has become pro-Obama because he switched his FISA stance. One quote anywhere by someone. anywhere. Who are these fantasy people Obama is winning? During the Republicans run since 94 how many ‘Sista Soulja’ moments have they had, how many times early in the run did ‘Club for Growth’ hold their noses when someone said they might support a tax increase? NEVER. How is alienating your base a good political move? How is doing it to gain the support of literally zeroes of people a good idea?
Conservatively Liberal
I will answer the only question worth answering from your post; No I am not for retroactive immunity.
Now answer me this:
McCain or Obama? The question is that simple, and it is the only one that matters this fall. How about answering that?
Just Some Fuckhead
I’m not sure the Fightin’ Leftards are “the base”, crack. Last I checked, you idiots were pimping the DLC corporatist with the nice haircut.
theturtlemoves
So, just because all the folks in your artists collective or at the fair trade coffee shop down the street happen to agree with you that Obama is sooper-dooper right wing doesn’t make it so.
But yes, the 4th amendment is going to die. And opposing third trimester abortion is exactly the same as wanting to oppress women and force them to pump out babies just like something out of a Margaret Atwood novel. And if we take away cop killer bullets and automatic weapons, we’ll all be hunting with pointy sticks. Wait, was that last one a right-wing BS slippery slope argument or a left-wing one? Hard to tell the differences sometimes…
crack
I don’t think Obama is super duper right wing. I think he’s good. I’m just confused who you think he wins over with this. Who?
CL you’re against it, John Cole is against it. Is Sullivan for it? I don’t read him anymore so I don’t know, its a sincere question. Maybe he is. Is Commisar for it? I’m being serious who is for it, and of those who can Obama win? If its no one then what’s he doing it for? He has a better chance of winning the Radley Balko/John Cole vote if he’s against it. If someone who is fed up with Bush but isn’t in Dem whole hog like JC sees the retro immunity vote does it make it more or less likely that they will vote Obama? I don’t think it pushes those people to McCain, I think it makes them stay home. Who do you think you lose by being against retro-immunity? Seriously not snarky what segment is it a loser with? Maybe my artist commune should get a teevee or something, but I don’t see the constituency of potential Obama voters to which this appeals. I’m also confused about how me saying this kneecaps Obama.
JSF what dlc corporatist is this?
theturtlemoves
I think the problem isn’t that a whole slew of people are for or against telecom immunity, so much as most of the voting populace doesn’t know enough about it to give a rat’s ass. Not necessarily a good thing, but given our ill-informed populace, likely a valid scenario. So, the question becomes, do we want to push the right-wing flip-flopper narrative on our own candidate for the sake of an issue that most people outside the lefty blogosphere don’t know much about? I’d vote for no.
Conservatively Liberal
All Obama can do is stand in opposition to it, and that will not prevent its passage. He is one man standing in front of a small tsunami of votes for it. By ‘going with the flow’, yet still opposing immunity, he takes away a meme for the right this fall. IMO, it is just about all he can do right now.
The time to hold Obama accountable is after he is elected, but some Democrats (along with quite a few ratfuckers and Clinton die-hards) insist on putting the cart before the horse thinking that this time it just may work out (or that it will irreparably wound him for this fall, as they desire). It never has, but why give up now (because the idea of Obama impaling himself on the sword of FISA is what they want)?
Steny Hoyer, the Democrat who pretends he is a Democrat, is responsible for this mess yet I have barely heard his name mentioned. Ask yourself why this is, and why he would drag this out now of all times. Maybe because there are vultures on the left and right who are dying to pick Obama apart on every little thing they can, and the MSM are primed and ready to write about any possible disaster that the left or right can hand them regarding Obama? Maybe because Hoyer was (IMO) an undeclared Clinton super delegate, and he is one of far too many Democratic officeholders who are less than enthusiastic about an Obama presidency (for whatever reasons)?
Right now, I choose to place my trust in Obama, partly because of the alternative but mostly because I believe that he may right this mess that both the Democrats and Republicans have put us in. I am not expecting miracles, no way. But I am expecting a change in how things are going.
It remains to be seen if Obama will even be able to make sense of the mess we are in, but the alternative is far less appealing. I am only being realistic here, Obama is one man and one man is NOT going to solve all of the problems in our country and the world. So stop pretending he can, and get behind him to let him know that you are expecting great things. The more people who stand behind Obama, the more he has to lose by not working for them. Walk away from him and all bets are off.
Like I said, it is McCain or Obama this fall. Nothing you do will change that fact, those are our choices and that is it. If you do anything but vote for Obama, you are either voting for or enabling McCain. There is no difference between the two, IMO.