Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
This post is in: Popular Culture
Tony Snow has died at the age of 53.
You know the drill, if you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all.
Fifty-three is just way too damned young, especially for a man with a family. Terrible. And, I should note, despite what you thought of Snow, he was the only competent Press Secretary of this administration. Perino is a dim partisan bulb, McClellan was in way over his head, and Fleischer was equally horrid.
Comments are closed.
[…] John Cole, Balloon Juice: “Fifty-three is just way too damned young, especially for a man with a family. Terrible. And, I should note, despite what you thought of Snow, he was the only competent Press Secretary of this administration.” […]
[…] John Cole, Balloon Juice: “Fifty-three is just way too damned young, especially for a man with a family. Terrible. And, I should note, despite what you thought of Snow, he was the only competent Press Secretary of this administration.” […]
[…] John Cole, over at Balloon Juice, posted something about it. He asked people not to diss Tony in the comments. I wrote something in the comments that got people wound up: If you can’t say anything nice? Hmmm. […]
Michael D.
I hated his views, but I always thought he had a terrific personality. He honestly WAS someone I’d probably like to have had a beer with.
Blue Neponset
That is sad news. RIP Tony.
Jeff
Sad. Snow was too young, and seemed like a good guy despite my being at political odds with him.
Ted
I agree he was this White House’s most competent press secretary by far. He always struck me as a very nice guy as well. His kids are way too young to have to deal with this.
Gizzi
Yeah, RIP, Tony. Actually made me respect his views. Lord knows how or why he got hooked up with these criminals…..
Dan
I’m sure there was overlap in the industry between friends of Russert and Snow. Gotta be a tough time.
Ted
I thought it was funny, if also a bit arrogant, when Snow said he left the WH job in part because it didn’t pay enough. Guess it should have occurred to me that he was packing away the cash in preparation.
Mary
I was shocked to hear this on the radio this morning. I knew he had relapsed, but I thought he had a little more time. My sympathies to his friends and family.
Nikki
What little respect I had for him grew when I saw him play his flute. He was a jazz flautist and he was quite good. John is right, he was the best of this administration’s press secretaries. His death is quite a shock.
John Cole
He actually played multiple instruments, if I remember correctly.
dan robinson
If you can’t say anything nice? Hmmm.
Stanley Crouch said of Tupac Shakur: “They say that you should speak good of the dead. Tupac is dead. Good.”
Tony Snow, even if he could play flute, was a flack for the group of bastards who have bankrupted this country, embroiled us in a war that will be a bitch te end and made it more difficult for the next generation to face a multitude of problems.
If a thief is happy and smiling as he steals your money, is he any less a thief?
Faux News
I agree with John and Michael.I Didn’t agree with him politically at all. But I knew he was just doing his job, and could tell he was more than likely a great guy.
Fleisher on the other hand is just another evil neocon prick cut from the same filthy bolt of cloth that Cheney is. No loss when this douchebag finally dies someday.
Jim Treacher
Way te go, Dan.
Wasn’t Snow getting beat up by the crowd on Bill Maher’s show not too long ago? I was under the impression he was doing a lot better. Sad news to wake up to. R.I.P.
tofubo
” “
dbrown
Tony’s mistake was going back to fake news channel; otherwise, he’d still be alive. Some people never learn their lession.
Dave
Amen to the Dan Robinsons of the world.
I am sorry that, like Socrates, Tony Snow was mortal.
I am not sorry that, of all the liars to publicly speak for this administration, Snow seemed to be able to lie with the most facility, and the straightest of faces.
John Cole
Dan Robinson-
You are an asshole, and for several reasons.
First, you can’t even respect a basic request from me. I ask nothing of you all, ever, except to show a very basic amount of decency.
Second, you simply can not control yourself, and just have to shit on a dead guy. Even when asked not to, the urge is irresistible. You see, you care more than everyone else about this country, so you alone are allowed to pass judgment on Tony Snow.
Third, you shitheads never learn. Ever. Within a few hours, some jackass at Hot Air or somewhere else will be nutpicking, linking your comment with some remark about the “tolerant left.”
Thanks a lot, you loser.
Dave
John, I love you and your blog to death, but how is the fact that a few stray — if honest — comments might be willfully misconstrued by the media a sufficient argument for self-censorship?
Did we learn nothing from the death of Tim Russert, a/k/a The Most Important Event of the 21st Century(TM)? Just because there are people in the world who can’t hold two dissonant thoughts in their head at the same time, why should they get to punish those who can?
Crusty Dem
I thought Snow was the only press secretary on this administration with any sense of trying to respond to the press, rather than just accusing them being liberal all the time. Maybe he was just more carrot and less stick (see Fleischer, Ari), but he we, at least, friendly and basically competent. Which is more than you can say about any other press secretaries, or nearly anyone else, in this administration.
Plus, no one deserves cancer. Fuck you Dan.
gil mann
Is pure evil rich in antioxidants or something? Helms dies peacefully in his 80s and this poor son of a bitch gets cut down in his prime after three straight years of going through oncological hell. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Addington et friggin’ al. are gonna break triple-digits, I’d wager.
I know it’s rude to flaut the proprietor’s rules, but I’ll say it anyway: God is a prick.
Doug
I thought Snow was the second most capable spokesperson of the Bush administration. In my mind, Fleischer was a master. He gave the press nothing, and they took it.
McClellan and Perrino are a distant third and fourth.
Tim Fuller
Wages of sin is death. Good riddance. Dan Robinson is spot on.
Enjoy.
John Cole
How does saying something nasty about a guy who died at 53 and left three kids and a wife who love him bring back one person killed in Iraq or change one thing about the state of this country?
Crusty Dem
Dave, do you seriously think Snow was in Ari’s class as far as lying? I’m sorry Snow is dead, I’ll save joy at the death of enemies to those who earned my enmity, not their spokespeople and water carriers..
John Cole
No one deserves to die a slow agonizing death of cancer. No one.
Well, maybe bin Laden. But no one else.
Crusty Dem
Fuck you Tim. Fuck you again, Dan. I’ll be attending my father’s memorial service today. I learned in the last year firsthand that cancer is a fucking bitch, no one deserves it. No one deserves having a part of them slowly eat them alive while their loved ones sit helpless. I had no love for Snow, but he wasn’t a monster and deserved better. I think we all do.. Fuck you again, Tim.
Dave
@John Cole: You’re absolutely right, that vilifying Snow in death will not bring back any lost soldiers or civilians, restore FISA or undo Abu Ghraib. But I thought the passing of Jesse Helms taught that you can mourn a man without whitewashing his record.
@Crusty Dem: All I’ll say is this:
Tony Snow to Helen Thomas, July 18, 2006: “Thank you for the Hezbollah view.”
Could you imagine even Ari Fleischer saying the same thing?
PeterJ
While I, like many others here, don’t share his views, he was only 53, died of cancer, and he got three young children.
So, RIP Tony Snow.
Jim Treacher
You can mourn a man without whitewashing his record and without being a ghoulish dickhead.
PK
So what! Fuck them! They will always hate the left. The truth is the truth. He was a flack. He criticized the Bush administration and its policies and then went and worked for them. He criticized Clinton over executive privilege and when questioned about supporting Bush over it, said it was different for Bush. He was a part of the problem. Another fact which no one mentions is that it was known last year that he had a short time left and his cancer was terminal, yet he had no problems getting a job. Can you imagine any ordinary person finding employment and getting health benefits with terminal cancer. And now he is dead we are all suppose to be nice and not mention the bad stuff and be scared of right wingers.
He was a public figure and he worked for an administration which has betrayed this country and its values. He worked for a news organization which is nothing but the propaganda arm of the republicans.
Of course it is sad for his family and friends that he died. It is sad that he had cancer and died so young. But his public persona which is what I am criticizing here was deplorable.
We are supposed to be more honest here. If I wanted to listen to pointless sycophantic garbage, whitewashing of the truth, and distortion of reality I would get cable.
Crusty Dem
Dave, I remember him being an ass at times, that quote is shameful, but he was still a young guy with a family, unlike Helms, glee or happy justification at his death is vile. There are enemies and there are adversaries. Learn the difference.
Doug
I think the normal convention is to offer condolences and generally not bring up a person’s failings for some suitable period following his or her death. I don’t have a problem with that.
Rosali
Crusty, my sympathies.
Ned Raggett
Quite.
There’s a bit of snark in my head given who it was and what he was known for, for sure. I strongly recommend NOT reading the Corner right now for that reason.
At the same time, I think of someone like my good friend Catherine, who just lost her beloved brother and only sibling to lung and brain cancer in his mid-thirties — and left behind not only Catherine and their parents, who have been quietly and thoroughly devastated by it all, but both a wife and a two year old son. And that ain’t pretty.
Crusty Dem
PK, look up the job description for press secretary, moron.
Delia
KO said once that he and Tony Snow enjoyed an email correspondence about baseball. There’s more to life than politics. The last time I saw him on TV (it may have been Colbert?)I thought he wasn’t looking that good, and I suspect now he must have been doing the stiff upper lip thing. Crusty Dem is right and I feel for his loved ones.
Crusty Dem
thx rosall, it sux. He was a very healthy 65, looked 50, great guy, etc…
Dulcie
My deepest condolences, Crusty.
I’m a project manager at a company that makes EMR software for cancer practices and hospitals, so I see the devastation firsthand. No one deserves to die from cancer, including Tony Snow. It’s a horrible way to live and die.
nightjar
RIP Tony Snow.
Sympathies for his young children. It is sad they will grow up without their father.
Faux News
Absolutely! Worst of all I can believe that neocon prick actually believing it too.
cain
Crusty, my condolences on your father’s passing.
cain
Wilm
Yeah, I feel sorry for the man’s children. As Snow was a very wealthy man with powerful friends, I know they will be taken care of for the rest of their lives.
I feel more sorry for the children of the privates and corporals lost in Iraq. As they were not wealthy men with powerful friends, I know their children will not be taken care of.
I also know that Snow’s life facilitated the war that brought them to their deaths and the party he supported works every day to make sure the lives of those orphaned children are much harder than they need be. So, I’ll not be joining the celebrations of his life and musical accomplishments.
And for the record, my father died of cancer.
nightjar
You want truth. Here is some. Everybody dies and someday you could find yourself painfully dying in some shitty hospital. Then you’ll know some truth.
Robert Johnston
Tony Snow was an expert liar who enjoyed his work. That may have made him a better press secretary than Perino, McClellan, and Fleicher, but it also made him a worse person. I never understood the fondness for Snow above those others. Better to be an idiot lackey or a man who feels shame sufficient to interfere with his work than to be a willing and eager participant in evil.
PK
Yes I could. And if I was an asshole I would fully expect people to piss on my grave. BTW I will probably die in some shitty hospital, but I can bet you Tony Snow did not die in a crappy hospital.
Robert Johnston
Of everyone here, you, above all, should know that that will happen regardless of what people here have to say about Tony Snow. Snow may have been a good father and a congenial friend, but to him lying in re: politics was a game and there was nothing like the thrill of winning. That made him a worse person, less worthy of respect, than any true believer.
raff
“…will be nutpicking, linking your comment with some remark about the “tolerant left.”
I think that’s probably the point, John.
On a side note, I lost most of my mother’s side of my family to cancer (both grandparents, two uncles, an aunt & four cousins). I doubt there’s anyone here who hasn’t lost a friend, relative or loved one to cancer. We all know the loss & horror of this wasting disease.
To make tasteless & derogatory comments on the occasion of a man’s death says more about the commenters than it does about the target of their bile. If you absolutely have to say that Tony Snow’s death is a good thing, how about saying it’s because, at least, it’s an end to his suffering from a terrible disease (one that’s almost as hard on the family & friends as it is on the victim).
There’ll be plenty of time to go over Snow’s legacy — we’ll probably see some respectful criticism from the left, some total white-washing from the right — but would it kill the trolls to STFU for two days, out of simple respect & decency, before lauding Snow’s death as ‘a good thing’?
numbskull
Seems to me, JC, that you’re the one who never learns. Or was someone holding a gun to your head when you posted this thread?
Red cape + bull = ???
Instead of “if you don’t have anything good to say about someone, don’t say anything”, you learn the lesson “when a guy whose entire career was devoted to bamboozling the public dies, maybe I shouldn’t begin a eulogy thread for him…”
Just sayin’, this is the umpteenth time and you still haven’t caught on. What? Do you think you’re going to change fundamental human psychology and behavior?
Cassidy
Yeah, somehow I get the feeling this is more of a gotcha moment than your actual feelings.
FYI, the children of servicemen and women killed in action are well taken care of: a multitude of social security benefits, college education paid for, health benefits until adulthood, etc. Add to that the various organizations that also kick in the money. We take care of own.
John Cole
I hardly think that stating someone was more competent than Dana Perino and that dying of cancer at 53 is horrible counts as an overly saccharine eulogy or a whitewash.
And I didn’t post an RIP thread for Helms because I wouldn’t piss on the guy if he was on fire. Tony Snow was no Jesse Helms, and it would not kill you all to not be a dick for the ten seconds it takes you to decide not to post anything at all, as I requested. I didn’t ask you to heap praise on him. I asked you not to shit on him. Apparently the capacity to not be a dick eludes many of you, and some of you even feel the need to be an ass multiple times in the same thread.
Piss off and grow up, and I hope you don’t get colon cancer. You know- Kharma. That shit you guys are always talking about.
Frank Jacobs
Shorter numbskull: “This is why we can’t have nice things.”
Agreed, sadly. Some folks have no sense of decorum and will pretty much take any chance to give the world the arsehole. Kinda makes you think about the whole stereotype of the angry, knee-jerk leftist, don’t it?
Katherine
Yeah, to me Snow was what you’d expect for a competent professional press secretary from an administration he hated, whereas Perino, Fleischer & McLellan managed to add insult to injury in their own special ways. I didn’t actually want to have a beer with him, but it’s sad when someone dies so young.
Katherine
from an administration I hated, that is.
Wilm
“Agreed, sadly. Some folks have no sense of decorum and will pretty much take any chance to give the world the arsehole. Kinda makes you think about the whole stereotype of the angry, knee-jerk leftist, don’t it?”
Here’s what I believe. You cannot separate a person’s job from the person. I know that this goes against the current accepted idea in this country, but so be it.
If you must do evil things in your job or if your job enables others to do evil things, then you are personally responsible for that evil. You may be trapped financially or personally powerless to change your employer, but that does not absolve you of moral responsibility. We are a nation that once believed that, a nation that once hanged men who claimed to be “just following orders.”
That’s still a fine principle. And under that principle, I am not going to mourn Tony Snow.
Frank Jacobs
Oh, and for what it’s worth, my own view of the man is that he was well-liked by his friends, loved by his family, and had, to my knowledge, no personal enemies. While he had a totally unenviable job, and his politics might have been wrong-minded from where I stand, he did not (unlike some folks) make a career of hate but rather tried to use his talents to make people see the world as he saw it. Misguided at times, perhaps, but nevertheless it seems to me today that the world lost something when Snow died.
Bey
Crusty, I’m so sorry for your loss.
RIP, Tony Snow. No one should have to endure what you and your family endured.
And for those of you out there cheering his death, what can I say? It’s very easy for people who are untested to judge others harshly for their choices. In fact, that’s the whole foundation of the fundamentalist good/bad, right/wrong, zero tolerance mess our society is in these days.
How fortunate you are in your purity. And how miserably sad it is that you couldn’t scrape up an ounce of pity for this man and his family.
nightjar
Self fulfilling prophecy?
I suspect all hospitals are crappy when you’re dying in them.
Ella in NM
It doesn’t appear that Tony Snow was an asshole, or evil or anything other than a completely typical human being, a hired gun who’s politics were in line with the current administration’s, and who possibly thought he could imprint his particular talents onto their image with the media. Being successful doing something half of us despise is no particular crime, theoretically.
However, separate from poor Tony Snow, the man who struggled against a terrible disease, there is a more important issue that I think goes to the heart of some of the negative comments posted here today. Politics are not principles, and as such we are all on the wrong side of ethics at some point in our lives. We need more, a better way to determine if we are on the side of “goodness”–and if it is even possible to determine what goodness is.
In Buddhism, they talk about the need to do “Right Work” as a means to becoming a better, more compassionate, more genuine human being . What this story (and so many others) points out to me is how easy it is for good people to delude themselves into thinking what they do for a living is just fine, thank you. That a paycheck’s a paycheck’s a paycheck. When we rationalize that doing something that promotes suffering, or untruth, or disharmony among our fellow man is all “relative”, we contribute to the decline of the quality of life for us all, and the continued, outright unfair misery of a few. Contrary to what most of us are taught, some work is actually better for our world than others, and even good work needs to be conducted in honorable ways to qualify as something we can be proud of.
We all remember the saying that “the Nazi’s loved their children too”? It spoke to the self-delusion of bad actors allowing them to live in a duality that harms others, while enjoying the fruits of “good living”. The concept seems pretty obvious to most of us, who would never even consider such a duplicitous life, and yet, we forget that we can also do superficially “good things” and be a bad person–eg, do charity work six days a week, but cause a lot of interpersonal and psychological dramas between those with whom you work. We can conduct ourselves in ways that essentially negate all the “good” we do in our external work, simply by rationalizing it into the bigger picture we hold of ourselves as “good”. We all need to think about the impact of the kinds of things we do for a living on the overall moral order of the world, and not fool ourselves.
The death of a human being is never something we should rejoice in, no matter how evil the person, because of the very complex, Shakespearian tragedy that most of us never knew was the story of their life. But the assertion that because a person has family, is nice to his co-workers, makes people laugh, etc. erases any “bad karma” they put into the world in the days before their death is merely a way to assuage our own consciences, and keep us from dealing with our own failure to live “rightly.”
dan robinson
Wow. I never knew I was an arsehole and a prick. I just thought I was a sun-of-a-bitch. I’ll have to update my resume.
Crusty Dem says that no one deserves cancer. William Munny says that deservin’s got nothin’ to do with it.
I lost my best friend to cancer 10 years ago at 43. He left an eight month old daughter. He wasn’t famous, he wasn’t rich, but he was a man who made the people around him better. When I contrast my friend and Tony Snow, I think my friend is 3-0.
For most of the people who read and comment here, Tony Snow was some geezer on TV. He wasn’t Mother Teresa. Leave off the St. Anthony march already.
Wilm
“Yeah, somehow I get the feeling this is more of a gotcha moment than your actual feelings.
FYI, the children of servicemen and women killed in action are well taken care of: a multitude of social security benefits, college education paid for, health benefits until adulthood, etc. Add to that the various organizations that also kick in the money. We take care of own.”
I live in Southeastern North Carolina – half an hour from Jacksonville and an hour and a half from Fayetteville – USMC Camp Lejuene and Army Fort Bragg, in other words. The fucking newspapers and TV certainly don’t seem to run out of stories of families struggling because they’ve lost someone in Iraq.
A lot of people aren’t doing well financially or emotionally. Maybe you take care of your own on paper, but you sure as fuck are doing it here and now in reality.
What about all the emotionally fucked up homeless vets that are appearings? You taking care of them, are you? How about Walter Reade? You taken care of your own there?
Whatever makes it easier for you to sleep at night, man.
John Cole
Thank you, Ella.
John Cole
With you hanging around him, given your display here today, making the people around him look better was probably a pretty easy feat. What did he do? Not kick puppies? Not piss on graves?
Seriously, is it that hard to not crap all over a guy who just died after an agonizing bout with colon cancer?
Wilm
“Seriously, is it that hard to not crap all over a guy who just died after an agonizing bout with colon cancer?”
If you were his brother or best friend, I’d give you my condolences and hold my piece. If this was a memorial service for the man, I’d shut my mouth and walk out the door. That’s simple respect.
This, however, is a political blog full of people who’ve never met the man. The same courtesies do not – and should not – apply. This is a public forum for discussing the public impact of the man and, in this venue, I am not going to pretend to respect a man who enabled so much suffering in the world.
Ken
And no amount of playing nice will ever change that. Don’t go to the Carpetbagger Report, John. You’ll have a stroke.
It’s interesting to see people here rank press secretaries according to the egregiousness of their capacity to lie. I make no such distinctions. Liars in the service of power are equal in my book.
phoebes in santa fe
What is confounding to me is that Snow, the son of a woman who died of colon cancer at the age of 38, wasn’t given screenings every year from age 20 on. My beloved sister-in-law was diagnosed last year with Stage 4 colon cancer at the age of 40. The doctors told her it could have been growing for TEN years.
She didn’t have regular screenings because no one else in the family has had colon cancer.
But, for someone whose mother died of it, not to have regular colonoscopies is stunning. I am ASSUMING he didn’t have regular yearly screenings because I assume they would have caught the cancer much earlier.
Please correct me if I’m wrong.
nightjar
And that street runs both ways. I would say on the day of the mans death, it is not about respecting, or not, his impact, but rather respecting his (and everyone’s) mortality and the loss to his loved ones. It’s Common decency, no more , no less.
Sirkowski
I see what you did there.
John S.
Don’t forget that the taxpayers of this country via the government take care of you, too, Cassidy.
Colon cancer is one of the worst fucking ways for a person to die. My great uncle Charlie succumbed to it quite some time ago, and it was a horrible way to go. I’ll never forget seeing him in the hospital when his doctor came in and said the chemo wasn’t working so they wanted to perform surgery. After hearing the prognosis, my uncle said, “If I can’t eat a steak, I’d rather fucking die.” And so he did shortly thereafter.
RIP Tony. My uncle Charlie will take good care of ya’. Just don’t play Poker with him. He’s a notorious cheater.
Ken
The Rude Pundit:
Stooleo
Tony Snow’s death reminds me of Lee Atwaters death bed apology. I often wonder when the time comes for the other members of this administration will there be any self realization and repentance? I wonder if Tony had any second thoughts or did he truly believe that he was doing the right thing?
Anyway 53 is too young to die. My thoughts will be with the wife and kids.
dan robinson
John Cole:
With you hanging around him, given your display here today, making the people around him look better was probably a pretty easy feat. What did he do? Not kick puppies? Not piss on graves?
Seriously, is it that hard to not crap all over a guy who just died after an agonizing bout with colon cancer?
——–
Around 150,000 people are going to die today. Most of them will be poor by our standards. Many of them will die from cancer, maybe even colon cancer. Many of them will be children. Many of them will be women, dying during childbirth for from complications of childbirth. Almost all of them are going to die with a lot less medical care than Tony Snow got.
Who crapped? I said he was a flack. A flack is a press agent. Tony Snow was a press agent for the worst government we have ever had.
Tony Snow was a political operator. He was wealthy, even by American standards, and well connected. He wasn’t Mother Teresa.
John Cole
You did more than call him a flack:
When all you had to do was… type nothing.
Just so tired of people passing judgment on others.
dan robinson
John sez:
When all you had to do was… type nothing.
Just so tired of people passing judgment on others.
———–
Puh-leeze. We all pass judgment on others. All the time. Even you. Maybe Tony resonated with you in some way and you want others to respect that resonance. He resonated with other people in other ways. Given the venue, I think I know where the balance point is.
raff
“This, however, is a political blog full of people who’ve never met the man. The same courtesies do not – and should not – apply.”
Wilm, I agree, for the most part. While I agree it’s fair game to look at Snow’s past as a public figure & offer up whatever criticism you may have of his public works, I don’t think just saying ‘good riddance’, or ‘he deserved what he got’, adds anything to the discussion & should be treated with the derision it deserves. (I’m not suggesting you said anything of the sort, but others have…)
We can all agree to disagree as to what kind of person Snow was, but none of us has the moral right to suggest that he deserved to die (& in a particularly nasty way… again, cancer affects more than just the victim).
&, Dan Robinson, the Crouch quote was marginally funny, but if you must speak ill of the the dead, at least quote Mark Twain: “I didn’t attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.” Unless you (or anyone else) can rise to Twain’s level of wit, I suggest you take a moment to think before you post.
dan robinson
Uh, raff, you can take your Mark Twain quote and shove it up your ass sideways.
D. Mason
What about the courtesy of respecting the posters request to not have his thread shit all over? Does that one apply?
Brachiator
Actually, I far prefer the sentiment of Alice Roosevelt Longsworth:
“If you don’t have anything nice to say, come sit by me.”
In looking over Snow’s obituary, I see that his mother died of cancer when Snow was 17 and that Snow, having suffered for years from ulcerative colitis, was at an increased risk for colon cancer.
I commend his courage at having to deal with the specter of cancer throughout his life, and sincerely have deep sympathies for his family.
I disagree with you here, and think that a sober consideration of Snow’s tenure in the White House must look at the degree to which he was a willing hand maiden to Bush’s most noxious actions:
Tsulagi
RIP, Tony.
By far the most competent and effective of the Bush press secretaries. Sure seemed sometimes to enjoy pulling the Democrats chain. Don’t begrudge a man a little fun in life. Here’s to you, Tony, and got nothing but best wishes and hopes for your family going forward.
My mother survived a very serious case of cancer, and is now past the important five-year cancer-free benchmark. Saw and experienced first hand the stress and pain on the family, especially on my dad. And on my mother. If it had gone the other way, don’t even want to think about it. Wouldn’t wish that on anyone, not even Bush or Cheney. Then again…
Don’t forget Zawahiri!
raff
“Uh, raff, you can take your Mark Twain quote and shove it up your ass sideways.”
Yes. Excellent. Both unoriginal & crass. Way to spotlight your anal-fixations. Well challenged, sir. Well challenged indeed.
harlana pepper
What teh heck is happening to my comments. I actually said something nice! Is it because I changed names?
John D.
Dan, you’re being a dick after being SPECIFICALLY ASKED by your host to not be one. Even before you posted your first comment, he had laid out the ground rules. I don’t give a rat’s ass what you wanted to say — common courtesy says you should have not posted at all if you couldn’t follow the guidelines John set down.
Note that I have not posted abnout Tony Snow at all in this thread. If you think treally, really, really hard, you may deduce why.
cyntax
53 years old is way too early for anyone to die, condolences to his family.
As to celebrating someone’s death because they don’t share your politics, that’s choosing to make a zero sum game out of something that’s necessarily much deeper and more profound. In the rush to celebrate another’s death, and thus dehumanize them, you lose a little of yourself.
Derek
He seemed like a decent guy with whom I disagreed. I work with folks like that, and don’t bear Tony any more ill will than I would any of them. I don’t know if he was an activist for colonoscopies or colon cancer the way Katie Couric became after he husband’s death. Regardless, I’m sorry to hear that he has passed on.
To all Balloon Juice readers, I say: GET THEE TO A DIGESTIVE SPECIALIST!
My dad had some polyps and divriticulitis, early signs of colon cancer that they’ve (thus far) prevented in him. Grandpa died of it. So that means I had to go get a colonoscopy this at the ripe old age of 32.
It’s not as bad as you think. They put you under if you want, so the , er, anal probing isn’t so traumatic. The worst part, honestly, was drinking the colon-blow crap they make you ingest before the procedure. You gotta drink about a gallon of salt water. Mmmm. Gives you super squirts and cleans you OUT, man. They found a polyp in me and removed it, and I don’t need to go back for three to five years. Trust me, seeing what my grandpa went through and what got Mr. Snow– it is absolutely worth the time and expense.
P.S.: Your insurance covers it. If you have insurance, of course.
dan robinson
Hey John D., I thought really hard and I think you’re a pussy.Hey John D., I thought really hard and I think common courtesy is a good idea.
LanceThruster
The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones. ~ William Shakespeare
F*ck you, Shakespeare! You insensitive pr*ck!
dan robinson
Meanwhile, over at Steve Benen’s place: http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/16174.html
I’m guessing that they didn’t get the memo over there.
Apsaras
At the risk of sounding self-centered, this reminded me of the history of Colon Cancer in my own family. Ugh, I’m going to need to start getting the old stern examined if and when that starts happening to me.
Anyway, Tony Snow seemed to be well liked by people who disagreed with him. Keith Olbermann said they had obvious policy differences, and Tony would apparently yell at the TV until he was hoarse watching Countdown. But, they seemed to respect each other.
Cassidy
Yeah….I live on an Army base. I’m gonna break this down elementary style for you:
You know the media’s penchant for broadcasting the exceptions as the rule (little blond girls marked for death, welfare queens, etc.)? I think you may have just been suckered in by your local news.
You bring up Walter Reed. Are you aware of how many MTF’s their are in this country? But in your shortsighted, simple mindset, one MTF is the example of all MTF’s? Your logic is baffling, and grounded in a bullshit, partisan need to say “gotcha”. Kind of pathetic in a keyboard kommandoes, cheeto stained kind of way.
Now, just a little more reality. When a family loses a Soldier in combat, they are provided with various amounts of money and benefits, one of them being an extended stay on post until they can move off and begin to move on with their lives. During this time frame and well after, they have the resources of the Army at their disposal, for anything they need. The system is not perfect. but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t work.
Cassidy
Yeah well, good riddance. Don’t know the guy, but who cares right? It’s all good to cheerlead someone else’s death. May he burn in hell for driving over the speed limit (a sin is a sin is a sin, remember).
The Grand Panjandrum
Damn fine chap. I’m only a few years older than Tony and we have children about the same age. It does give one pause to think and be grateful for family and friends. The though of leaving ones children at that tender age is almost unbearable.
RIP.
Derek
I don’t know why my first comment suggesting that folks consider getting a colonscopy was apparently moderated away from the board, maybe my yahoo address looked like spam. But it’s worth trying to say again:
GET A COLONOSCOPY!
It’s less troublesome than you think, and they put you under so you don’t have to experience it live. The worst part is drinking the medicine that cleans you out. It’s covered by your insurance… if you’re lucky enough to be covered, of course.
As for Mr. Snow, having this stuff in my family history makes his passing a good reminder to everyone in my clan how important those checkups are. They’ve saved my Dad from almost certainly contracting the cancer that killed Grandpa and Mr. Snow, and I myself have had a polyp removed.
Colon cancer is a huge killer, and more preventable than just about every form of the wretched disease. If Mr. Snow had earlier checkups, maybe he’d still be with us today.
My condolences are with his family and friends.
gil mann
Yep. And people who use everything that comes across the wire–including the too-young death of a husband and father–to puff themselves up, are the enemy. Even if they’ve got the right sort of opinions.
Fucking vultures. It’s really easy to end up with shitty politics, kids–many (most?) of us are here because we got lucky and caught ourselves before it was too late. That’s sort of our host’s claim to fame, y’know.
Yeah, that’s pretty much everybody except the guy who draws caricatures down at the boardwalk (assuming “evil” doesn’t overlap with “can’t draw that well”). Have fun living up to your principles. They say a funny sign gets more change in your cup.
Crusty Dem
Wow Dan, did Steve Benen ask commenters to not be dicks? No? But John did, didn’t he? So why do you feel the need to be such an asshole..
Cassidy
Ethical absolutes are the domain of the naive and liars.
Mark Gisleson
Tony Snow wasn’t a Chabad Lubbavitcher like Ari was.
That’s the only nice thing I can think of to say.
John S.
That’s right.
Hence why my uncle Howie had to wait almost 30 years for the Army to make good on his disability. See, the Crohns disease, nerve damage, lymphoma, diabetes, lung disease and all his other afflictions that he has endured as a result of Agent Orange exposure didn’t qualify him for 100% disability because the VA didn’t recognize that as an official cause of medical problems. That all changed of course once they changed their mind about that a few years back.
But I do love to hear you wax poetic about how the military ‘takes care of its own’. I’m sure the hundreds of thousands of veterans that are homeless would get a chuckle out of you, too, if only they had computers to read this blog on.
dan robinson
Living up to other people’s expectations is hard.
Which am I? Dick? Asshole? Maybe a combination? Dickhole? Assdick?
Cassidy
Yeah, refer to my earlier comments re: pathetic, exceptions and rules, etc.
But hey, it is so much easier for you to assume the system is the same as it was 30 years ago just to get your “gotcha” moment. Uncle Howie must be so proud…bring on another plate of cheetos!
Crusty Dem
I think you can be many things. Mostly I think you’re just a soulless little fuck who seems to get off on being both an asshole. Big man on the internet syndrome strikes again.
I’m just not sure where all your anger comes from, and I don’t really care, I’m just disappointed that such a tool is smearing his own feces throughout the comments of one of my favorite blogs..
Jim Treacher
At least Dan could attempt some wit as he’s pissing on the man’s grave. Something like, “That’ll be the first Snow they’ve seen where he’s going!” Otherwise it just comes off as peevish and whiny. I mean, class envy, Dan? Really?
dan robinson
This is so fucking funny. I’m really laughing here. Now I’m a tool. I need to add that to my resume. You guys really crack me up.
I’ll let one of you doyens of democracy have the last word.
Adam
It’s just trolling, John. The whole point is to push your buttons. It’s inevitable, particularly when you say not to do it; you’ll never know how many people decided to listen to you, but that also means more space for the people who can’t pass up the chance to make trouble.
Crusty Dem
ok dan, thanks for fucking off. Don’t come back soon, ok?
Gay Veteran
Saw Snow on Bill Maher’s show. Knowing he had cancer he still lied until the bitter end.
But leave it to hand-wringing liberals to mourn someone who had blood on his hands (because ANYONE who served Bush has blood on their hands).
Cassidy Says: FYI, the children of servicemen and women killed in action are well taken care of: a multitude of social security benefits, college education paid for, health benefits until adulthood, etc. Add to that the various organizations that also kick in the money. We take care of own.
gee, you make it sound like they’re a bunch of lucky duckies.
John Cole
Hi. I am not a liberal.
Maybe I over-reacted, but I just don’t understand why the first thing people do when someone dies is crap all over them. With some folks, like Helms, I get it. But Tony Snow? there are a shitload of Democrats in the House and Senate who you all are supporting this year who did far more to start the war than Tony Snow. They voted for it. Are we going to expect similar responses whenever Hillary dies? She not only voted for the war, but she didn’t learn and voted for AUMF.
As to Cassidy, the only thing he has said that really pissed me off is the notion that the “military takes care of its own.” My ass. We take care of you. The taxpayers. We pay for all of it, including your socialized medicine and generous retirement benefits. Every last stinking penny of it. That being said, I still don’t think we do enough for disabled and injured vets. Not even by a longshot.
srv
I’ll crap on Republicans and Democrats. Line ’em up.
Gay Veteran
Agree with srv, crap on ANYONE who has enabled our Crawford Caligua.
“… I should note, despite what you thought of Snow, he was the only competent Press Secretary of this administration….”
so he was a competent war criminal?
kate r
Snow aside, the method of noting the death of public figures is worth examining.
John S.
Precisely.
But then, this is Cassidy’s usual schtick. He knows all military traditions.
John S.
You don’t read so good, do you window licker?
He’s been dealing with bullshit from the VA for 30 years – not 30 years ago.
I pray to G-d that a smug prick like yourself never gets injured in combat like my uncle did and then gets shit on by the wonderful system you hold so dear. Although it would be poetic justice, I wouldn’t wish his fate on you.
xyzzy
Ditto. The worst you can really say about Tony Snow is that he did his job; he didn’t seem like an inherently bad person, and he probably really believed in the rightness of what he was doing. The world is a lesser place when someone who takes an honest stand leaves it.
When that evil bastard Cheney finally kicks it, though, I’m going to be dancing in the goddamn streets!
Will
I actually think Fleischer was a more effective press secretary. Remember that he was spokesman through the Bush Tax Cuts, 9/11, and the launching of the Iraq War. A much better liar than Snow ever was.
Gay Veteran
“…The worst you can really say about Tony Snow is that he did his job; he didn’t seem like an inherently bad person, and he probably really believed in the rightness of what he was doing. The world is a lesser place when someone who takes an honest stand leaves it.”
really? REALLY? so the world is a lesser place when Jesse Helms left it?
when did service in the cause of evil become honorable?
AnneLaurie
When one serves as a willing and highly-paid tool of the Haters, is “I’m just trying to use my talents to make people see the world as I see it” much of a defense? Do we call it the Leni Reifenthal standard?
xyzzy
Simmer down there, GV, I didn’t say anything about Jesse Helms. My point was that Tony Snow most likely believed in what he did and thought that he was making a positive difference. So he was cynical and arrogant about it, and probably also believed that the ends justify the means. So what? Plenty on our side of the fence are the same. Whatever his sins in the service of his cause, they don’t merit the kind of vitriol that has been heaped on him.
SamFromUtah
I just don’t understand why the first thing people do when someone dies is crap all over them.
Me neither. And yet, it happens every time. As numbskull said above, Red cape + bull = ???
It’ll happen next time, too.
Gay Veteran
xyzzy: “Whatever his sins in the service of his cause, they don’t merit the kind of vitriol that has been heaped on him.”
That’s where we differ. You serve evil then you don’t get kind words when you die a miserable death.
maxbaer (not the original)
John, thanks for moderating your blog and saying what needs to be said in the face of senseless hatred. Even though I disagreed with him, I hope that his life and death served a larger purpose. I may find it hard to say that about the pricks he worked for, though, when their time comes.
maxbaer (not the original)
I just saw that Bobby Murcer passed away as well. Don’t know (or care) what his politics were, but he seemed like one of the nicest guys to ever play baseball.
gil mann
Wow, you never followed a morally ambiguous order? That’s an enviable service record, m’man.
Robert in BA
John,
I want to abide by your rules.
When can I come back to write what I really think of Tony Snow?
Will you post something to illicit responses?
I’ll be back in 48 hours to check back in with you.
Gay Veteran
gil man, what in the Bush Regime is morally ambiguous?
reverend_lowdown
Rest in Peace, Tony Snow. A strange statement considering his job as a panegyrist for this terrible administration has left us, the living, in anything but peaceful circumstances. I choose to be respectful in his death, however, and not take the easy, emotionally purging road to pissing on someone’s grave. Fight the good fight but if you don’t remain a decent person through it all…what the hell are you really creating?
xyzzy
Amen, reverend_lowdown.
The Other Steve
Is CNN doing a 24 hour tribute to Tony Snow?
numbskull
Christ, Cole, I go away for a day and you screw up like this.
I don’t understand it, but you are really blind to what people are telling you about this:
Snow = Goebbels in some people’s minds.* Some of those people hang around here. You know this. Buuuut, you just can’t help yourself. You just have to wave the red cape at the bull. Why? It’s like you’re daring people to be their worst.
You are in for a lot of disappointment in life, kid, if you think they ain’t goin’ to oblige.
*Not mine, and I’m not sure why you unloaded on me when I pointed out that you’re not learning, somehow taking that as me saying I was rejoicing over Snow’s death. I never said that, I don’t think that, and if you’re going to post these stupid-assed “ah, a reviled man died today, let’s all pretend we care” bullshit posts, please read the responses a little closer. Or not. I’m pretty sure at this point it’s pointless.
lucslawyer
I was once told that the worst way that one human being can feel towards another is to just not care at all about what happens to them…love or hate, one still cares…anyone care to guess how I feel about Snow dying?
Jim Treacher
Ooh, me! Let me see… I’m gonna say… You care so little that you took a little time out of your day to brag about it.
Charity
Very sad. I thought he was beating his cancer. He may have been on the “wrong side,” but he seemed like a nice guy.
Cassidy
Well sure, maybe…I guess it’s the taxpayers helping box up the stuff, or cleaning their house, or mowing their lawn, or…Any of you all lift a finger to help a widow? I’m guessin’ not.
lucslawyer
Oh, Jim, that hurt so bad…try again…
Actually, I guess I was trying to be as polite as I could…I despised Tony Snow and I am truly glad he is dead…Now I can respect anyone who has diametrically opposed views to mine as long as that person defends their point of view honestly and with respect to those who disagree, and does not condescendingly refer to the latter as “traitor” or “unpatriotic” simply because that person holds a differing opinion…Tony Snow made a habit of doing exactly that, as well as lying through his teeth to defend the indefensible…I am not fond of Republicans or conservatives, but if someone like Olympia Snow, Charles Grassley, Richard Lugar or Chuck Hegel
were to pass, I would definitely respect them as people who represented their positions with class and dignity, and who treated the opposition with respect…IMO Tony Snow was an enemy of everything decent and proper in political discourse in this country and his death is no loss…
xyzzy
It’s a good thing then that nobody on the left resorts to condescending ad hominem attacks then, right? (snark off)
I didn’t like Snow’s tactics, either. But he was a smart man, and he enjoyed the verbal sparring. And his job description basically required him to improvise (at best) or lie (at worst) to protect his employer, just like EVERY whitehouse spokesperson. He did his job well. And you know what? He wasn’t a monster beast in service of pure, unmitigated evil, he was a guy doing what he thought was right.
I HATED the guy’s moves. But you assholes saying that his painful+early death is a good thing– you people are really missing something in the humanity department, and I think you need to step back and take SERIOUS look at how you live and think.
gopher2b
Because they are not rich or famous and they only way they can feel better about their sad little lives is to say something mean about a dead guy who was rich and famous.
binzinerator
Good riddance to an effective apologist and defender of an administration that has caused the deaths hundreds of thousands of men, women and children.
Colon cancer was the perfect way for the public face of the Bush regime to go.
The only sadness I feel is that Bush and Cheney will most certainly not succumb to a similar, horrible, disease.
I give no respect to those who have for years given no respect to truth, to honesty, and to human decency. We are now asked to respect the man and his family, while his evasions and obfuscations and even obstructions insulted most of a nation yearning for the truth and mocked the dead of those on the receiving end of the war in Iraq.
The man has much to answer for. So much ability given over to so base an enterprise.
In spite of what Jc and others of like mind think, hell yes there are people of this admisitration who have earned every reason to have their grave pissed upon.
Why should we respect people whose necks should by all that is just in the world be stretched by a rope for war crimes? The enablers and dissemblers and propagandists are as guilty as those who ordered the criminal deed. We have thought so before, and have acted accordingly. Why is this any different now?
gopher2b
Binzinerator….please know that the only difference between you and Bush and Co is that they have power, and you don’t.
binzinerator
Got news for you, xyzzz, the entire Bush apparatus is missing something in the humanity department. And Snow because he was intelligent, able and effective, was a vital part of that monstrously inhuman apparatus.
What are you missing about someone who relished his role as defender and apologist for war criminals? A million Iraqi civilians are dead, as well as 4,000 poor slob Americans who were trying to do something noble for their country, plus 40,000 more who are maimed. And Snow went to bat for the criminals who ginned it all up. And unfortunately he was good at it.
Why do you have any respect for someone who was good at making it difficult for a reporter to get a straight answer? Or for the public to learn the truth?
xyzzy
Ditto gopher2b. Maybe he does have a lot to answer for, bizinerator. But I suspect that you do, too.
xyzzy
Got news for you, xyzzz, the entire Bush apparatus is missing something in the humanity department. And Snow because he was intelligent, able and effective, was a vital part of that monstrously inhuman apparatus.
It’s “xyzzY”my friend, not xyzzz.
What am I missing? Nothing. I understand his part in the machine that led us into this fiasco. What are YOU not understanding about the fact that there are people who have a different opinion from us, but they can still be good people?
I already said that I didn’t like his approach. I think that he was misguided. I think that he was on the wrong side. But I think he believed in his convictions, however wrong WTF is with you people beating him up for that? We all believe in our convictions!
Here’s a thought, you motherfuckers: how about not just fucking arbitrarily hating your fellow man. How about believing (1) we’re all americans and (2) you respect someone’s beliefs
I disgreeed with Tony Snow and the Bush admin on pretty much everything. But what the FUCK is with you people shitting all over him? He was just a dude doing what he thought was right!
Fuck!! I’m an independent. Give me more reasons to vote for McCain. Come on, do it.
TheDeadlyShoe
@ John Cole: If you don’t want people expressing their opinions on someone’s death, just lock RIP threads. I mean, what is it supposed to be? The internet equivalent of a candlelight vigil? Chances are, noone knew Tony Snow personally. So we talk in terms of what Tony Snow has said and what Tony Snow did.
He’s not notable because he was kind to strangers and had lots of friends. He’s not notable because he had a great family. The only reason we’re even talking about Tony Snow is because he was a Fox News personality and a White House official. It’s unsurprising we talk about his life & death in those terms.
Posting a negative comment on the internet isn’t spitting on his widow or protesting his funeral.
Glocksman
My mother died at the age of 58 as a result of pancreatic cancer, so let me offer my viewpoint on the issue.
If Snow were a *decision maker* along the lines of GWB or Darth Cheney, I’d be sympathetic to the ‘screw him’ viewpoint.
As it is, he wasn’t such a person and as such I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
And for another aside, only my almost non-existent self restraint at the point in time (less than 12 hours after her death) prevented me from shooting dead on the spot the cemetery plot salesman who doubled the plot price upon hearing that we wanted to bury her in this exact spot he pointed out because it was close to my grandparents’ graves.
IOW, if any of you Internet Tough Guys had the balls to say this shit to his family in person, I’d *love* to be on the jury and convince my fellow jurors to acquit the family member who shot you dead in outrage.
lucslawyer
Tony Snow was not misguided…he was a disrespectful, condescending, professional liar who knew what he was doing and saying 100% of the time…and as for the cancer…compared to the thousands who are going to have to spend the next 30, 40, 50 years without arms or legs or sight or hearing or with brain damage thanks to the war for which Tony Snow was a front man, I’d say Tony got off easy…BTW my mother died of breast cancer…
TenguPhule
Entire Bush Clan
Entire Cheney Clan
Condi Rice
Rumsfield
Alberto Gonzales
The cast of FOX Spews
C Powell
The Swiftboaters
Karl Rove
TenguPhule
And if we gave a shit about the jackasses on the Right, we’d be Congressional Democrats.
TenguPhule
People need only be convinced of their own goodness to commit the worst atrocities with a song in their heart and a smile on their lips.
TenguPhule
As he lived, so he died.
No regret, never cried.
Rome Again
I just want to point out that the regulars of this blog are (from what I can surmise) acting respectable and the voices that seem unreasonable are strangers among us.
My personal view: my father died of colon cancer 22 years ago at the age of 61. It is a horrible death. I would not wish it on anyone, not even a Bush Republican.
John S.
We already pay for you to stay on government welfare for life – isn’t that enough? Are you gonna help out your neighbor who is a widow in the – gasp! – private sector with boxing up the stuff, or cleaning their house, or mowing their lawn?
I’m guessing not, because you are a contemptuous little piece of shit for whom civilians are not worthy.
Gay Veteran
xyzzy Says:
“…But I think he believed in his convictions, however wrong WTF is with you people beating him up for that? We all believe in our convictions!
Here’s a thought, you motherfuckers: how about not just fucking arbitrarily hating your fellow man. How about believing (1) we’re all americans and (2) you respect someone’s beliefs
I disgreeed with Tony Snow and the Bush admin on pretty much everything. But what the FUCK is with you people shitting all over him? He was just a dude doing what he thought was right!….”
I don’t give a flying fuck what he believed. He was part of a regime that is responsible for the deaths of over 4000 AMERICANS and over ONE MILLION Iraqis. So excuse me if I don’t get all teary-eyed over his death.
gil mann
No, a lot of the horribleness is coming from the regs too. You’d think fans of a guy whose whole schtick is that he used to be a right-wing bullshit delivery device but now works to redeem himself as a force for good would be a little hipper to the fluidity of human morality, but I dunno, maybe they’re just here for the gee-whiz aesthetics of the site template.
I’m honestly revolted by people’s reaction to this (that’s “revolted,” not “concerned”). Helms, sure. Well past the point at which redemption is no longer an option, and the bastard died about as peacefully as the higher primates ever do, neither of which can be said about Snow.
Question is, why aren’t we talking assassination? It sounds like a reductio ad absurdem, but honestly, if Snow’s effect on our country was so toxic that we’re justified in dancing on his grave, then doesn’t it follow that we should’ve taken him out back when he was still a player? I mean, hey, if he deserved to die a miserable death for his abetting of the Bush administration, it stands to reason that the utilitarian good would’ve been to stop him from doing it by any means necessary.
But of course, I’m hardly worth listening to–I’m totally compromised. I’ve done bad things in my life, and I’ve loved people with disagreeable politics, so I should probably just shut the fuck up and contract a disease that’ll eat me alive as my wife and children look on.
Cassidy
Awwwww…someone is jealous. Don’t blame me that you’re too chickenshit to choose a profession like mine. You see, my benefits, that I’ve earned, is for doing something that 70% of the American population doesn’t have the nuts to do. A nation of whiners and pansies, no doubt.
You know John S., if you nut up a little bit, you too can have a profession that gives a pretty good package deal of benefits and pay. Just sayin’….
Well yes I would. Just because I view most civilians as beneath us, doesn’t mean I’m not going to be decent to people in their time of grief.
MBunge
Two points.
1. It’s possible for someone to be a nice guy, great father and husband and wonderful friend…and still be a shitty citizen. It’s possible to be a good person on a personal level and a bad person on a public level.
2. One of my two defining memories of the public Tony Snow was seeing him on Fox News after the Bush drunk driving story came out. He was interviewing the guy who leaked the information or broke the story or something, and it was obvious that Snow (who was still supposed to be something of a journalist) was deliberately trying to trash the story and undermine the guy’s credibility. But Snow didn’t have even the most basic command of the facts of the case and the guy smacked down every leading and biased question Snow threw at him. What struck me is that Snow obviously hadn’t learned and understood the story to any extent, and therefore wasn’t asking questions from a legitimate skepticism. He was a supposed newsman on a supposed news channel trying to knock down a news story out of knee-jerk partisan instinct. The other defining memory of the public Tony Snow is listening to his radio show both before and after his initial bout with cancer. From what I heard, Tony Snow after cancer was more insulting and more dismissive of people who disagreed with him than he was before cancer. Make of that what you will.
Mike
Gay Veteran
from comments at another blog: “He had a choice and he chose evil over good. His death doesn’t change that.”
Glocksman
Wow.
Well, let this civilian dedicate a song to you.
Garet Trooper.
Lyrics:
John S.
Sorry, but some of us have to actually work for a living to keep you on government welfare.
Michael Brown
Don’t know the man and don’t like what his employers did to the country. But I like even less the morons on this thread who feel fine about beating up on a dead man. I’m as left wing as they come, and you are a pack of cowards not fit to suck a hog’s ass. Eat it.
As for Snow himself, I’ll just go with Jonathan Turley’s notice.
TenguPhule
And these people wonder why the Iraqis and Afghanis are running rings around them.
TenguPhule
Because we all know that unquestioningly following illegal orders that have led to atrocities is the only brave manly thing to do. It takes real balls to shit on other countries without giving a fuck about the consquences.
TenguPhule
And that is why the military needs highers standards for recruits.
TenguPhule
If you help kill thousands of people without regret and to the day you die do nothing to try and make amends, then you too will get the Snow treatment.
gil mann
Your unsourced rumor demands swift retaliation against Tony Snow’s corpse. Jesus Christ, this isn’t about him, it’s about us. But hey, keep not getting that, everybody. You just keep shrinking and that’s good for environmental impact.
Ooh! Almost forgot: Hat, brooche, pterodactyl.
liberal
Gil Mann wrote,
Assassination invites reprisal. Furthermore, assassination means that justice, here in the form of a guilty verdict at a war crimes tribunal, could never be served.
So we can state, emotionally, that T.S. deserved to die, or we can make a claim of utilitarian calculus that the world is better off without him. And at the same time eschew assassination.
liberal
gopher2b wrote,
One difference is that (I conjecture) Binzinerator would not have invaded Iraq.
IMHO that’s quite a difference.
liberal
Glocksman
All that means is that, as a war criminal, he wasn’t at the level of Bush and Cheney. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t a war criminal.
A criminal cabal like the Bush administration isn’t automatically self-sustaining. One crucial function of the organism is the propaganda department.
Gay Veteran
Michael Brown Says: “I’m as left wing as they come, and you are a pack of cowards not fit to suck a hog’s ass”
we bow to your moral superiority
gil mann: “…Question is, why aren’t we talking assassination?….”
Our forefathers knew how to deal with their tyrannt.
MBunge
“Jesus Christ, this isn’t about him, it’s about us.”
I’d say what it’s about is this…what’s the difference between Tony Snow and Jesse Helms? As far as I can tell, Snow either supported or tacitly condoned Helms and the Helms agenda for America. I certainly can’t recall anytime that Snow publicly tried to distance himself or his political ideology from Helms. I don’t remember Snow ever saying “Jesse Helms is not my kind of Conservative.” And since Snow volunteered to become the public face and voice of an administration that’s gotten hundreds of thousands of people killed and maimed in Iraq, you can’t claim he was just a bystander and doesn’t deserve any responsibility for bad things.
So, when John Cole says Snow is no Helms…what exactly is the difference?
Mike
gil mann
No, you can’t, which is probably why nobody has.
I’m not even trying to make a point anymore; I’m just angling for this thread to set the Guinness World Record for people talking past each other.
Evinfuilt
He was by far the best at what he did, and no one deserves to die like that.
MBunge
“I’m not even trying to make a point anymore”
So what is the point? That you should never say bad things about someone when they die? I’d tend to agree with that as it applies to Tony Snow, Jesse Helms and everyone.
But that doesn’t seem to be the point at least some folks are making. Two pretty consistent themes seem to be that you shouldn’t say anything bad about Tony Snow because…
A. He appeared to be an affable, likable guy on TV and a decent fellow in his private life.
B. He died a particularly horrible death.
Firstly, I don’t like the implication (or perhaps I’m inferring wrongly) that it’s okay to say bad things about a jackass who dies a realtively peaceful death.
Secondly, Tony Snow is not Richard Nixon. He’s not a man who was loudly and repeatedly villified over time for his behavior, who gets a break from condemnation on day of his death. He’s a partisan propagandist who became rich and famous as a willing member of the right-wing media establishment and never recieved any sort of serious criticism or rebuke from the larger political or media culture.
Let me put it this way. I don’t see any substantive difference between Scott McClellan and Tony Snow. McClellan seems like just as good and decent a guy with very much the same political beliefs. But if Scottie got hit by a bus tomorrow, would the Beltway media being fawning all over him? Fuck no.
I’d tend to agree with not speaking ill of the dead, but I also believe that you shouldn’t take a man’s public life and public acts and throw them all under a rug when he dies, especially just because he seemed like a nice guy. If you don’t like the state of our political media and our public discourse, Tony Snow deserves some of the blame for it. If you didn’t like the politics of Jesse Helms, Tony Snow deserves some of the blame for those views being tolerated. If that’s what you believe, you shouldn’t let the fact that Tony Snow smiled and smiled cover up the fact he was a villain.
Mike
Jamey
Fifty three? A terrible waste . . . of a perfectly good coffin.
It’s not that I disagree with Tony’s politics; it’s that I disagree — no, am offended by — his towering amorality. No lie was too big for this guy. What mattered was not that tens of thousands of people were killed at the say-so of the bastards who signed his fat paychecks, but that these people now are dead because Snow elevated party loyalty above every single other principle — and worked overtime to discredit any who dared oppose him. Seemingly just for the laffs.
Sure he was a nice guy. So fucking what. John Wayne Gacy made balloon animals for kiddies. And that Michael D would have wanted to have a beer with Tony just proves just proves that other countries in North America also give birth to clueless, self-absorbed twats.
Note to Michael D: Given their way, the people Tony Snow fronted for would have you (as a gay North American) consigned to second-class status. And I will never stand for that — even though you occasionally display a third-rate intellect.
Silver lining to this is, now we finally DO have Snow in hell…
gil mann
Oh, I had a bunch of ’em. you could scroll up and hunt ’em down but they weren’t, like, super-insightful or anything.
Yes, because the opposite of whitewashing somebody’s record is to gloat about their death just hours after the fact on a blog where the guy in charge specifically requested that people not do that.
No, that’s a fair inference. I’ve got no problem with speaking ill of the dead per se, and yeah, I’m okay with public stonings of unrepentantly evil motherfuckers who lived a good long life and then shuffled off this mortal coil at home surrounded by loved ones.
I guess I’m one of those moral relativists the right’s always telling spooky stories about around the campfire, because I can’t see how anyone can put Snow and Helms in the same category. That line of thinking leads somewhere dark and unforgiving and, frankly, untenable.
MBunge
“I can’t see how anyone can put Snow and Helms in the same category.”
Why not? That one was more publicly personable than the other is a distinction without merit. Beyond that, how did Tony Snow ever distinguish himself from Jesse Helms?
I don’t think I’ve cursed Tony Snow’s name or danced with glee on his grave, but I am intriguied at how people disconnect Tony Snow the person from Tony Snow the citizen. I’m interested in why people want to give him a pass, despite the fact that his public life and actions directly promoted and advanced so many of the things those same people decry as disasters and tragedies for America.
Mike
Gay Veteran
“…I can’t see how anyone can put Snow and Helms in the same category….”
gee, who is responsible (at least partly) for the bigger body count?
gil mann
I can’t believe I ended up on the pro-nuance side of an argument with a guy called Gay Veteran.
Gay Veteran
no, you just ended up on the pro-hand wringing side