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Museums are not America’s attic for its racist shit.

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Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

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Second rate reporter says what?

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

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Too often we hand the biggest microphones to the cynics and the critics who delight in declaring failure.

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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / War / And When I Put On This Hat I Got From the Army/Navy Surplus, Sometimes I Stand in Front of the Mirror and Call Myself “Patton”

And When I Put On This Hat I Got From the Army/Navy Surplus, Sometimes I Stand in Front of the Mirror and Call Myself “Patton”

by John Cole|  August 15, 200811:19 am| 102 Comments

This post is in: War, General Stupidity

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Via Sullivan, first-class wankery from the Weekly Standard:

Having pulled back from Ossetia and Abkhazia, the Georgians can now regroup and re-equip. They are in desperate need of two things: weapons to kill tanks, and weapons to kill or deter aircraft and helicopters. We can supply both. The Stinger missile, the bane of Russian Frontal Aviation in Afghanistan, is still the most potent shoulder-fired weapon around. It will cause Russian close support aircraft to keep their distance, or to attack from higher altitude. Providing Georgia with medium-range surface-to-air missiles which can be deployed from Georgian territory proper will further push back their high-altitude aircraft (e.g., Tu-22M Backfires).

Freed from aerial observation and the threat of air attack, Georgian forces could move dismounted over the mountains more readily than Russian mechanized forces can move along the roads. Which means that the Georgians would be free to set up ambushes to block further Russian advances and to interdict their lines of communication. We can provide the wherewithal for them to do this. First, we need to give the Georgians anti-tank mines, and not just any kind, but our latest “smart” off-route mines like the XM93 Wide Area Mine (WAM). These don’t have to be placed directly on the roads, but can be put off to the side, where built-in sensors can detect armored vehicles and launch explosive formed penetrator (RFP) warheads at them.

Second, we need to give them our best anti-tank guided missile, the FGM-148 Javelin.

***

Pretty soon, Russian forces will be taking serious casualties. They will have to inject more troops to protect their lines of communication. They will have to get out of their troop carriers and climb up into the mountains, where they will take more casualties from an agile and elusive enemy. They can’t even resort to the time honored tactic of butchering the local population of Ossetia and Abkhazia, since these are now “Russian citizens,” having been granted passports by the Russian government (thereby doing Hitler one better: there actually were Germans in the Sudetenland, but Putin had to invent his downtrodden “Russian” minority in Georgia).

As Russian forces start to bleed, it will be impossible, even in the controlled media of Putin’s Russia, to hide the casualties from the Russian people. They will probably respond to this as they did to the bloodletting in both Afghanistan and Chechnya.

For Christ sakes, can the folks at the Weekly Standard at least have the decency to lie about WMD before spewing this nonsense, or do we no longer deserve any foreplay?

These people are simply insane. These lunatics are openly agitating for a war with Russia for… some shitty little inconsequential piece of land on Russia’s border. Imagine how the United States would react if someone decided to supply a hostile army in Mexico with advanced weaponry in the struggle over the breakaway Republic of Tijuana, and you get the idea. Not to mention, let’s revisit some basic facts:

Russia’s military budget is equivalent to about $40 billion this year, compared to Georgia’s $997 million. Russia has 1.1 million soldiers, Georgia has 37,000. The Russian armed forces have about 6,000 tanks and some 1,700 combat aircraft. Georgia has 230 tanks and 12 combat aircraft.

And those stats are before Putin took his T-90’s galloping through Gori.

I feel bad for the people of Georgia and the Ossetians, who seem like they are locked in one of these fatalistic never-ending ethnic struggles that sometimes seem close to resolution and then inevitably flare up from time to time. But this is really none of our damned business. This is simply insanity speaking. We have no national interest in funding and being dragged into a guerilla warfare with the Russians.

God only knows what the blow-back from this current debacle will be, let alone if we double down with this kind of lunacy.

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102Comments

  1. 1.

    calipygian

    August 15, 2008 at 11:23 am

    It frustrates me to no end that Iran and Iraq are mortal threats because they MAY someday in this generation develop a crude nuclear weapons so we have to take them out yesterday, while the armchair strategists at the blogs and the Wall Street Journal editorial page bay for Russian blood over some dusty shithole town in a place no one has ever heard of before while blithely ignoring the fact that Russia remains the only country on Earth that can physically destroy the United States. Its bad enough we’ve inflated Iran and al-Qaeda into the status of an existential threat when they really aren’t. Russia really is a potential existential threat if we handle this badly and no one seems to care. And does anyone really doubt that the Cheney Administration is capable of handling this episode in any way but “badly”?

  2. 2.

    Adolphus

    August 15, 2008 at 11:24 am

    I can practically feel their erection bulging out of my computer screen.

  3. 3.

    Dave S.

    August 15, 2008 at 11:25 am

    I have played enough board games to recognize this behavior. We used to call it “board-staring,” wherein we would look at the map, balance of forces etc. and plan our next moves.

    What these people appear to have lost sight of (or, worse, have willingly thrown away) is the fact that this is not actually a game no matter what Kipling might have to say on the subject.

  4. 4.

    Conservatively Liberal

    August 15, 2008 at 11:26 am

    It reads like they are foaming at the mouth to relive Afghanistan in the 80’s and our training and equipping Osama and his crew. Maybe they think they can start a whole new group of terrorists when we abandon Georgia after they win their war.

    Afghanistan Redux, coming soon to a theater near you.

  5. 5.

    Marshall

    August 15, 2008 at 11:28 am

    Anything we provide the Georgians will never arrive (check the map of the region), and if it does arrive it will be lost.

    What I want to know is, what happens if (when ?) the Russian airforce starts intercepting our supply planes, and tells them not to enter Georgian airspace ? Don’t think Putin won’t do this if we start sending weapons.

    I wish we could get rid of all of the little boys in charge of our foreign policy.

  6. 6.

    D. Mason

    August 15, 2008 at 11:28 am

    I believe what Sullivan is suggesting is an Iraq style insurgency, complete with roadside bombs. This whole situation just oozes with irony.

  7. 7.

    Jason

    August 15, 2008 at 11:28 am

    If we buy these guys copies of Command & Conquer or the like, will they go away?

  8. 8.

    libarbarian

    August 15, 2008 at 11:29 am

    If we fuck with them in Georgia, they will fuck right back with us in Iraq and Afghanistan and they have the ability to make our tasks much fucking harder.

    Do these people fucking think????????

  9. 9.

    linda

    August 15, 2008 at 11:30 am

    how many times during the composition of that little diatribe do you think the ‘author’ had to break to beat off…

  10. 10.

    junkiebrewster

    August 15, 2008 at 11:32 am

    Afghanistan Redux, coming soon to a theater near you.

    Afghanistan II: Electric Boogaloo

  11. 11.

    Radon Chong

    August 15, 2008 at 11:32 am

    And Bush can’t even manage to deliver the humanitarian aid he promised.

  12. 12.

    Dave S.

    August 15, 2008 at 11:33 am

    Linda, I believe there is a Conservapedia entry providing tips on typing one-handed…

  13. 13.

    Conservatively Liberal

    August 15, 2008 at 11:33 am

    Do these people fucking think????????

    No, they are incapable of thought or emotions unless it relates to hating Democrats or figuring out new ways to screw the public out of their hard earned cash.

  14. 14.

    Richard Bottoms

    August 15, 2008 at 11:34 am

    I know in the old days you used to be mystified about my sputtering rage over the evilness of Republicans. This is the party of torture, war, and profiteering for the already wealthy. The political demise of the GOP cannot come too soon for the good of this country.

  15. 15.

    calipygian

    August 15, 2008 at 11:34 am

    how many times during the composition of that little diatribe do you think the ‘author’ had to break to beat off…

    Have you seen any of the Kagans? Add a few zits and they literally look like the pasty, doughy kid rolling 20 sided dice in mom’s basement. Their thinking is so adolescent that they probably don’t have to write tumenscent inducing crap like this for an excuse to jerk off every 45 minutes.

  16. 16.

    Librarian

    August 15, 2008 at 11:35 am

    In a way, it’s strange that the neocons are so anti-Russian. You would think that with his repressive domestic policies and his agressive foreign policy, Putin would be the kind of leader the neocons would love.

  17. 17.

    Dennis - SGMM

    August 15, 2008 at 11:36 am

    It must have taken them at least ten bags of plastic Army Men to work that one up. Of course Russia would never respond by providing similar advanced weaponry to our many friends in the ME.

  18. 18.

    dbrown

    August 15, 2008 at 11:36 am

    calipygian makes some incredibly critically important points that somehow, escape the media … either we have the stupidest media on Earth or Balloon Juice has some of the brightest posters … wait, I post here … that means we have the stupidest media.

  19. 19.

    Marshall

    August 15, 2008 at 11:38 am

    I believe what Sullivan is suggesting is an Iraq style insurgency, complete with roadside bombs. This whole situation just oozes with irony.

    Note that Sullivan is reporting on this, not advocating it himself.

  20. 20.

    Paul L.

    August 15, 2008 at 11:39 am

    Russia’s military budget is equivalent to about $40 billion this year, compared to Georgia’s $997 million. Russia has 1.1 million soldiers, Georgia has 37,000. The Russian armed forces have about 6,000 tanks and some 1,700 combat aircraft. Georgia has 230 tanks and 12 combat aircraft.

    The US has the same or greater advantage in Iraq.
    How does this square with the progressive talking point that we can not win the war and Iraq is stretching our Military to the breaking point.

    Funny how the anti-war crowd are now making excuses for the Russians.

  21. 21.

    rawshark

    August 15, 2008 at 11:44 am

    How does this square with the progressive talking point that we can not win the war

    Who said we can’t win? We won 5 years ago. If we weren’t concerned with who gets to work the oil fields we’d have left by now.

  22. 22.

    Josh

    August 15, 2008 at 11:44 am

    Funny how the pro-war crowd was once making excuses for the Iraqis.

  23. 23.

    Dennis - SGMM

    August 15, 2008 at 11:45 am

    We’re talking Red, White and Blue roadside bombs – not the bad kind.

  24. 24.

    Keith

    August 15, 2008 at 11:45 am

    My friends, the solution to the situation in Georgia is a Surge.

  25. 25.

    TenguPhule

    August 15, 2008 at 11:47 am

    How does this square with the progressive talking point that we can not win the war and Iraq is stretching our Military to the breaking point.

    For starters, Russia isn’t fucking around with a foreign hostile territory well out of range of its own border.

    How the hell idiots like Paul L can accept talk about arming Georgians with weapons that Iraqi guerillas would kill their own mothers for is baffling.

    Do we really want to get into a proxy war of arming the people who hate us or them?

    Just think how much fun modern Russian equipment designed to fight American hardware would be if it was giftwrapped to the Iraqis as Slutivan wants to do so to the Georgians.

  26. 26.

    TenguPhule

    August 15, 2008 at 11:50 am

    as *Sullivan*

    Goddamn uneditable wordpress.

  27. 27.

    SpotWeld

    August 15, 2008 at 11:51 am

    It’s amazing how much these guys sound exactly like tabletop wargamers. The guys who have carefully painted minitures and have memorized the stats and effective attack radiuses of whole inventories of military hardware. The thing is, almost always a war gamer’s abilities are exclusive to the non-reality game itself. It becomes and abstract concept with little cardboard markers and bits of string to get the distances right.

    And it’s about as applicable to real life as being good at “Rock Band” is to being able to actually play an instrument in front of an audience.

  28. 28.

    Krista

    August 15, 2008 at 11:51 am

    Of course Russia would never respond by providing similar advanced weaponry to our many friends in the ME.

    Right. Which wouldn’t make any more friends amongst your NATO allies, who would be getting their asses shot off in new and interesting ways, due to Russia supplying arms to Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Paul L., nobody here is saying that Russia is the good guy here, but there really is nothing to be gained, and much to be lost, by the U.S. getting involved in this particular issue.

  29. 29.

    TenguPhule

    August 15, 2008 at 11:52 am

    I can practically feel their erection bulging out of my computer screen.

    You’re looking at the wrong end.

  30. 30.

    pablo

    August 15, 2008 at 11:53 am

    The blowback is this.
    If we supply the Georgians with SOTA Weapons, The the Russkies supply the Taliban with anti-tank, and shoulder fired AA missles.
    Round and round we go.

  31. 31.

    wasabi gasp

    August 15, 2008 at 11:54 am

    What can possibly be more dangerous than a Democrat in the White House?

    Please don’t say some silly shit like escalating tensions between nuclear powers.

  32. 32.

    Dennis - SGMM

    August 15, 2008 at 11:56 am

    If the Iranians suddenly turn up with some squadrons of Sukhoi 37’s and a few regiments of S-400 mobile anti-missile/anti-air units then we’ll know that the Bush/McCain strategy in Georgia has paid off.

  33. 33.

    georgia pig

    August 15, 2008 at 11:58 am

    Yeah, that’s pretty psychotic. Fat chance the US military would give any of that shit to the Georgians, because it would be on sale in Peshawar in three months, tops. They’ll get date-expired MRE’s and Chinese-made pup tents instead. To the idiots that think we can do anything about Georgia, I’ll say it slowly. Georgia.is.fucked. Their best hope is that Putin is a little more subtle than Stalin and doesn’t want the hassle of actually occupying the country. Finland is better than Chechnya.

  34. 34.

    Neal

    August 15, 2008 at 11:58 am

    Once again, Sullivan is not advocating this, he reported it. Jesus. Andy’s being sane this time.
    Reading comprehension, damn it.

  35. 35.

    TenguPhule

    August 15, 2008 at 12:02 pm

    Ceasefire declared, Georgian POS claims, “The way the West Behaves, it invited Invasion”

    Shortest European War ever.

  36. 36.

    cleek

    August 15, 2008 at 12:08 pm

    Shortest European War ever.

    but the Kagans haven’t cum yet! just a little longer? please?

  37. 37.

    Face

    August 15, 2008 at 12:12 pm

    What? Kristol hasn’t advocated military assistance to Kamchatka and Irtutsk as well?

  38. 38.

    Xanthippas

    August 15, 2008 at 12:12 pm

    Unlike some of the idiots on the right, Stuart Koehl actually seems to know what he’s talking about (he’s been a defense analyst for awhile, according to his bio.) But if he’s not writing this as an intellectual exercise (and I don’t think he is, or it wouldn’t be in the Weekly Standard) then he’s certainly of the hawkish persuasion, and yes this is the sort of writing (military acronyms, battle plans and tactics) that will have a right-winger’s shorts tenting out as he reaches for his dusty Axis & Allies box. Directly arming the Georgians for the express purpose of having them kill Russian troops, is about the stupidest thing we could do short of having our own troops fight the Russians. As it stands now, there’s a very slim chance to walk things back from the brink, to resolve the conflict peacefully while retaining some manner of Georgian independence and salvaging what relationship we have with Russia. But arming the Georgians to fight the Russians? We could kiss that all goodbye, and count on Russia being our enemy once again for decades. Modern Russia would hardly be an enemy on the order of the old Soviet Union, but why would we want them as enemies at all when it just makes life that much harder for us?

  39. 39.

    Dennis - SGMM

    August 15, 2008 at 12:13 pm

    Shortest European War ever.

    Rice said the time has come “to begin a discussion of the consequences of what Russia has done. This calls into question what role Russia really plans to play in international politics.”

    Russia will play pretty much whatever part it wants to, Condi – or hadn’t you noticed?

  40. 40.

    Jay C

    August 15, 2008 at 12:16 pm

    @ Paul L:

    Funny how the anti-war crowd are now making excuses for the Russians.

    And this fat hefty slab of inanity is “backed up” by a link to a short blogpost about missiles in the Czech Republic? Huh?

    Maybe instead of straw-man “lefty”-bashing, you might put that considerable intellect of yours into consideration of the point that Russia’s commitment of forces to the Georgian operation is vastly less, proportionately, to their total military strength than ours is to Iraq (as well as being “next door”, or within driving distance – rather halfway around the globe). The difference in force commitment alone should render comparisons to the Georgia situation foolish (as well as pushing the equivalence of US and Russians as “occupiers”? Really want to go there?)

    Oh, and maybe a comment or two addressing John’s main point?

    We have no national interest in funding and being dragged into a guerilla warfare with the Russians.

    Or do you agree with the poposed scenario from the Weekly Standard’s MOC HQ (Military Onanist Command)?

  41. 41.

    montysano

    August 15, 2008 at 12:18 pm

    What a bunch of naysayers and Defeatocrats. It’s easy:

    1. “Do” Iran;
    2. ***** stuff happens *****;
    3. Success! Flowers and pie!
    4. “Do” Russia.

    etc.

  42. 42.

    jake

    August 15, 2008 at 12:19 pm

    “We need to” is it?

    Fine, YOU foot the bill for the weapons and bear the brunt of Russia’s reaction. The rest of us will be right here.

    Planning your funeral.

    Hell, people screech about the nasty influences of video games but look at what playing too much Risk causes.

  43. 43.

    les

    August 15, 2008 at 12:20 pm

    Are we sure this wasn’t written by the McLame campaign?

  44. 44.

    Martin

    August 15, 2008 at 12:20 pm

    Altemeyer wrote about these guys. These are the people that play Civ and don’t realize that there is any other victory condition other than total military dominance.

  45. 45.

    maxbaer (not the original)

    August 15, 2008 at 12:21 pm

    Imagine how the United States would react if someone decided to supply a hostile army in Mexico with advanced weaponry

    The Russians wouldn’t have to go that far. The Taliban are right next door and would probably appreciate any materiel support Putin could give them.

    If we send more weaponry to Georgia it’s just going to get more of them killed.

  46. 46.

    Jim

    August 15, 2008 at 12:23 pm

    I’m waiting for the call to change the name of this blog to “Neville Chamberlain’s Balloon Juice.”

  47. 47.

    Jay C

    August 15, 2008 at 12:30 pm

    @ Xanthippas:

    More good sense:

    Modern Russia would hardly be an enemy on the order of the old Soviet Union,

    Yes, but how much less? OK, maybe Russia 2008 doesn’t have the Southern Tier of the Caucasus and the ‘Stans as a buffer: nor the Warsaw Pact on their West, but they are still a formidable (and nuke-armed) Power: maybe not as SOTA as US/NATO, but why put it to the test?

    but why would we want them as enemies at all when it just makes life that much harder for us?

    Dunno: because the hardon warmonger crowd at right-wing mags and think-tanks need an good, nasty “enemy” to get frothed into a frenzy over? Let’s get real: the Russians aren’t necessarily going be the US/Europe’s “friends” – not in this century, anyway: but you’re right: why turn them into “enemies” without some really good reason? A better reason than Georgia’s squabble over South Fucking Ossetia, anyway….

  48. 48.

    liberal

    August 15, 2008 at 12:30 pm

    calipygian wrote,

    It frustrates me to no end that Iran and Iraq are mortal threats because they MAY someday in this generation develop a crude nuclear weapons so we have to take them out yesterday,…

    The silliest thing about this is that the neocons want everyone to be our enemy.

    I don’t see any geopolitical reason why Iran is fated to be our enemy.

    Not that I think we actually have any substantial national interest at stake in the Caucases, but to the extent it’s claimed we do because of oil, IIRC there are alternative pipeline routes through…Iran.

  49. 49.

    Dennis - SGMM

    August 15, 2008 at 12:31 pm

    If we send more weaponry to Georgia it’s just going to get more of them killed.

    You can say that again. Some quick work with Google:

    Total Georgian military forces = 32,650
    Total Russian military forces = 1,162,000

    The Russians have half-again more armored vehicles (Over 48,000) than the Georgians have troops.

  50. 50.

    Shygetz

    August 15, 2008 at 12:32 pm

    Everyone knows brown people using improvised weapons makes for very weak war porn. Now Soviets…those guys have got stuff that will keep a neocon hard for weeks! Plus, proxy wars mean that we get our war porn without the damn media showing pictures of US troops blown into bits (since no one cares about foreign “people” anyway)…that “casualty” stuff always kills the mood.

  51. 51.

    Dork

    August 15, 2008 at 12:33 pm

    Imagine how the United States would react if someone decided to supply a hostile army in Mexico with advanced weaponry

    If you’re talking about some Mexicans owning WMDs, they already do. It’s called Corona and Tequila. Destroyed me last weekend.

  52. 52.

    Calouste

    August 15, 2008 at 12:35 pm

    The Russians are working hard at the moment to strip the Georgian army of all it’s hardware. They are not fighting, but they have been around to bases that have been left unguarded by the Georgians as they fled and are “securing” them. Three guesses where all that nice new and shiny American provided hardware is going?

  53. 53.

    Josh

    August 15, 2008 at 12:38 pm

    the West had behaved in ways that invited the invasion.

    Just like a Bushie, can’t ever fucking take responsibility for his own blunders.

  54. 54.

    Dennis - SGMM

    August 15, 2008 at 12:38 pm

    Three guesses where all that nice new and shiny American provided hardware is going?

    Well there was no sense in providing it to under-equipped National Guard and Reserve units now was there?

  55. 55.

    Punchy

    August 15, 2008 at 12:43 pm

    I plan to make millions opening up my Cheetos, Mountain Dew, and Keyboard Jizz Protector Emporium right next to this Surplus store.

  56. 56.

    Conservatively Liberal

    August 15, 2008 at 12:56 pm

    A comment at Kos made me laugh out loud.

    If five years as a POW made McCain a war hero, what does that make the Guantanamo detainees?

  57. 57.

    mark

    August 15, 2008 at 1:00 pm

    Wolverines!!

  58. 58.

    jake

    August 15, 2008 at 1:00 pm

    The silliest thing about this is that the neocons want everyone to be our enemy.

    They like having plenty of reasons to keep their diapers full.

    Or they know they won’t have a prayer of scoring until every able-bodied male is off fighting some war or other.

  59. 59.

    flyerhawk

    August 15, 2008 at 1:02 pm

    It simply baffles my mind that someone could seriously suggest that we arm a neighbor of Russia with our best weaponry, weaponry we don’t give ANYONE.

    What are the most realistic consequences of arming the Georgians? Let’s see.

    1. Russia gets really pissed off at us and the rekindles the Cold War. They may not be as strong as they once were but they could still cause us all sorts of problems.

    2. Russia gets really serious with Georgia really takes the fight to them. They begin indiscriminate high altitude bombing killing thousands of civilians.

    What’s the upside? Various right wing dunderheads can feel macho. Sounds awesome.

  60. 60.

    Sloegin

    August 15, 2008 at 1:04 pm

    Don’t you guys get it? They already get 7 armies a turn, now with Georgia, they’ll have enough cards to turn in a set!

    Geeze, some people.

  61. 61.

    Tim (The Other One)

    August 15, 2008 at 1:06 pm

    Screw Command & Conquer. Give me Army Men or Army Men II any day !

    Sarge sez: “A mortar !”

  62. 62.

    dbrown

    August 15, 2008 at 1:07 pm

    Cafferty at CNN handed McSame his head with McSame’s “No one can invade a sovereign nation in the 21st century” nonsense. It was great. The ‘Crooks and Liars’ blog site has it.

  63. 63.

    chopper

    August 15, 2008 at 1:09 pm

    Russia will play pretty much whatever part it wants to, Condi – or hadn’t you noticed?

    there’s an analogy here about chickens and roosting, or some such.

  64. 64.

    ThymeZone

    August 15, 2008 at 1:13 pm

    John McCain understands that the US is a bellicose nation at heart, not because of people like Bush and Cheney and McCain, but because the voters want it that way. The voters have elected and reelected bellicose governments over and over since WWII.

    When the voters decide that being a bellicose nation is not what they really want, then you can have a less bellicose government. Until you change the minds of enough voters, you might as well get used to this.

    “There will be other wars, my friends.” What, did you think he was kidding?

  65. 65.

    Sarcastro

    August 15, 2008 at 1:13 pm

    For all the faults of this guy’s romanticism that have been pointed out there is one glaring omission; This dude is proposing that the Georgians fight a low intensity conflict in Azkkhabia and South Ossetia… where they do NOT have the support of anything like the majority of the residents. There’s a word we use for guerillas who do not have the support of the local populace: corpses.

  66. 66.

    wasabi gasp

    August 15, 2008 at 1:13 pm

    If Georgia surrenders, are we still all Georgians?

  67. 67.

    John Cole

    August 15, 2008 at 1:14 pm

    Unlike some of the idiots on the right, Stuart Koehl actually seems to know what he’s talking about (he’s been a defense analyst for awhile, according to his bio.)

    He may know the weapon systems at hand and what they can be used to do, but his analysis is missing something pretty important- a Russian response. In the la-la-land these morons exist in, the Russians will just keep sending men and armor into kill zones, oblivious to the fact that previous units were hit.

    This is not a serious analysis at all. it is- “hey, if the Russians act like a video game and do pre-programmed responses we predict, if we send weapons into the region which are then used flawlessly in guerilla operations by troops unfamiliar with their usage, this could be bad for the Russians!” Like I said, it is first class wankery.

  68. 68.

    Jay C

    August 15, 2008 at 1:16 pm

    Oh, and Balloon Juice is still having logon problems: I’ve been getting the WordPress “Site Down” notice off and on all day (several days actually)?

    Can the BJ tech-gnomes get on it? Or have they, too been a victim of a dastardly Russian cyber-attack?

  69. 69.

    Richardson

    August 15, 2008 at 1:16 pm

    They will have to inject more troops to protect their lines of communication.

    I’m not a General, but I play one on TV. That said, if an army with 1944 era technology could stretch its supply lines from the Volga to Berlin, would it really have much trouble stretching its supply lines across a country that isn’t much wider than Delaware in 2008? Just asking…

  70. 70.

    Walker

    August 15, 2008 at 1:17 pm

    Hell, people screech about the nasty influences of video games but look at what playing too much Risk causes.

    Trust me. These people suck at Risk. Anyone who plays these games understands things like alliances, supply lines, and attrition. The problem is that these foreign policy experts are somehow treated seriously, when they know less about long-term war planning than 15 year-old playing Starcraft.

  71. 71.

    Tsulagi

    August 15, 2008 at 1:21 pm

    Not to mention, let’s revisit some basic facts

    Facts are for pussies. Now here’s the leadership, critical thinking, and experience we’ve all come to expect from the serious adults like Bush/McCain on national security and defense…

    WASHINGTON — President Bush Wednesday promised that U.S. naval forces would deliver humanitarian aid to war-torn Georgia before his administration had received approval from Turkey, which controls naval access to the Black Sea, or the Pentagon had planned a seaborne operation, U.S. officials said Thursday.

    As of late Thursday, Ankara, a NATO ally, hadn’t cleared any U.S. naval vessels to steam to Georgia through the Bosporus and the Dardanelles, the narrow straits that connect the Mediterranean and the Black Seas, the officials said. Under the 1936 Montreaux Convention, countries must notify Turkey before sending warships through the straits.

    Pentagon officials told McClatchy that they were increasingly dubious that any U.S. Navy vessels would join the aid operation, in large part because the U.S.-based hospital ships likely to go, the USNS Comfort and the USNS Mercy, would take weeks to arrive.

    “The president was writing checks to the Georgians without knowing what he had in the bank,” said a senior administration official.

  72. 72.

    Tim (The Other One)

    August 15, 2008 at 1:23 pm

    “Anyone who plays these games understands things like alliances, supply lines, and attrition.”

    Look, I just wanna drive the frickin’ tank. YOU worry about that crap !

  73. 73.

    Martin

    August 15, 2008 at 1:28 pm

    He may know the weapon systems at hand and what they can be used to do, but his analysis is missing something pretty important- a Russian response.

    Last year my daughter (first grade) was doing her homework answering a question along the lines of: ‘how many eggs do I need to take out of Russ’s basket and put into George’s basket to make them equal’. My son (4th grade) being the smart ass that I’ve trained him to be challenged her on how she planned on getting Russ to give up his eggs without her getting punched in the mouth.

    That’s what we’re looking at here. The neocons never consider whether it is prudent to do these things, whether there are other options. Someone creates the challenge of Russian tanks and they give the answer to how to address the challenge in a purely tactical turn-based manner. Since nobody asked about countermeasures or SS-25s being launched in response to intervention as part of the original question, these guys simply didn’t address that in their answer and don’t see anything wrong with that.

    ‘Nobody could have anticipated…’ should be their motto. They seem to live by it.

  74. 74.

    SpotWeld

    August 15, 2008 at 1:31 pm

    Republicans.. the Zergling rush of politics?

  75. 75.

    Punchy

    August 15, 2008 at 1:34 pm

    If Georgia surrenders, are we still all Georgians?

    I think Michael D. just nodded.

  76. 76.

    Phoenix Woman

    August 15, 2008 at 1:38 pm

    Did you catch how Gates is trying to simultaneously talk tough while walking back some of the sillier crapola emanating from Bush/McCain’s mouths?

    If nothing else, this makes an attack on Iran a lot less likely than it was a week ago, which means the world economy isn’t in immediate danger of collapse.

  77. 77.

    Heshe

    August 15, 2008 at 1:43 pm

    Wow! Not only do we have an endless War on Terra going on, we’ve got the beginning of a Cold War II. It’s Springtime for Neocons.

    Why don’t we just cut to the chase and nuke those filthy commies.

  78. 78.

    Tony J

    August 15, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    What most causes my gorge to rise about this wanabee-Sumpreme Generalissimo’s ‘carefully thought out’ war-plan for an extended Georgian Insurgency, quite apart from the blinkered inability to consider repercussions outside of his chosen battlefied, is that the intended result of Plan 9 – Momma’s Basement Mix, isn’t a free and independent Georgia, nah, fuck the Georgians. It’s to keep those fuzzy-wuzzys fighting long enough to really piss off the Russians so they go all Chechen Redux and turn the country into a hellhole populated by a race of mountain dwelling barbarians who exist only to bleed Russia dry and give neo-cons wet-wrestling dreams.

    “Those Georgians, man. They gotta be willing to die for my freedom, just like I’d die for their freedom if the Russkis invaded Murrika. It’s the same thing! I ain’t got no respect for someone who won’t face down the bear, y’know, like I would, if they ever came here. We’ve all got our roles to play.”

    Yeah. Get the Georgian population down the 300 stalwart warriors with a death-wish and bronzed pecs and you never know what might happen.

  79. 79.

    rawshark

    August 15, 2008 at 1:49 pm

    John Cole Says:

    Unlike some of the idiots on the right, Stuart Koehl actually seems to know what he’s talking about (he’s been a defense analyst for awhile, according to his bio.)

    He may know the weapon systems at hand and what they can be used to do, but his analysis is missing something pretty important- a Russian response. In the la-la-land these morons exist in, the Russians will just keep sending men and armor into kill zones, oblivious to the fact that previous units were hit.

    This is not a serious analysis at all. it is- “hey, if the Russians act like a video game and do pre-programmed responses we predict, if we send weapons into the region which are then used flawlessly in guerilla operations by troops unfamiliar with their usage, this could be bad for the Russians!” Like I said, it is first class wankery.

    That sounds like something I read on Yglesias’ new site yesterday:

    This seems to me to be an excellent example of what (via Dan Nexon) Jack Snyder calls “The Myth of the Paper Tiger” whose adherents hold that:

    [Enemies are] capable of becoming fiercely threatening if appeased, but easily crumpled by a resolute attack. These images are often not only wrong, but self-contradictory. For example, Japanese militarists saw the United States as so strong and insatiably aggressive that Japan would have to conquer a huge, self-sufficient empire to get the resources to defend itself; yet at the same time, the Japanese regime saw the United States as so vulnerable and irresolute that a sharp rap against Pearl Harbor would discourage it from fighting back.

    Not exactly the same but pretty similar IMO. I tend to agree with both.

  80. 80.

    Cromagnon

    August 15, 2008 at 1:49 pm

    I think the guy who wrote that article read one too many Tom Clancy novels

  81. 81.

    liberal

    August 15, 2008 at 1:50 pm

    Jay C wrote,

    I’ve been getting the WordPress “Site Down” notice off and on all day (several days actually)?

    I’ve seen that a lot, too.

    Another thing—it really looks like an error message directed at site admins. AFAICT good web practice dictates that those messages aren’t revealed to the web audience when in production mode. (Looks bad, and could reveal info leading to a security breach.) Maybe it’s a WordPress thing?

  82. 82.

    liberal

    August 15, 2008 at 1:50 pm

    Jay C wrote,

    I’ve been getting the WordPress “Site Down” notice off and on all day (several days actually)?

    I’ve seen that a lot, too.

    Another thing—it really looks like an error message directed at site admins. AFAICT good web practice dictates that those messages aren’t revealed to the web audience when in production mode. (Looks bad, and could reveal info leading to a security breach.) Maybe it’s a WordPress thing?

  83. 83.

    Xanthippas

    August 15, 2008 at 1:53 pm

    He may know the weapon systems at hand and what they can be used to do, but his analysis is missing something pretty important- a Russian response.

    I only mentioned that because I thought it was fair to distinguish him from the clowns on the right who-literally-learned everything they know about military tactics from wargames, Tom Clancy and History Channel specials. On his larger point about supporting some sort of war against Russia with our best technology…moron.

  84. 84.

    rawshark

    August 15, 2008 at 1:55 pm

    Link I left out of my previous post
    “The Myth of the Paper Tiger”

  85. 85.

    liberal

    August 15, 2008 at 1:56 pm

    ThymeZone wrote,

    John McCain understands that the US is a bellicose nation at heart, not because of people like Bush and Cheney and McCain, but because the voters want it that way. The voters have elected and reelected bellicose governments over and over since WWII.

    In fairness to the voters, though, most politicians in both parties are committed to the US projecting military power over much of the globe, when in fact there’s no convincing national interest at stake.

    The only folks I can see who understand this point are (a) real liberal/progressives/whatevers, who don’t run the Democratic party, (b) sincere paleoconservatives, and (c) antiwar libertarians.

    Not too many ballot box options at the Federal level fall into (a), (b), or (c), and not many organs in the MSM give them a big platform very often.

  86. 86.

    Punchy

    August 15, 2008 at 1:58 pm

    What most causes my gorge to rise about this wanabee-Sumpreme Generalissimo’s ‘carefully thought out’ war-plan for an extended Georgian Insurgency, quite apart from the blinkered inability to consider repercussions outside of his chosen battlefied, is that the intended result of Plan 9 – Momma’s Basement Mix, isn’t a free and independent Georgia, nah, fuck the Georgians. It’s to keep those fuzzy-wuzzys fighting long enough to really piss off the Russians so they go all Chechen Redux and turn the country into a hellhole populated by a race of mountain dwelling barbarians who exist only to bleed Russia dry and give neo-cons wet-wrestling dreams

    There’s just a TON of funny in here. The bolded part damn near caused me to spray my keyboard with water.

  87. 87.

    joe in oklahoma

    August 15, 2008 at 2:03 pm

    Tom Hartmann just reported that Izvestia has an article which shows that Karl Rove met with the Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili in Yalta a month ago.

  88. 88.

    Xanthippas

    August 15, 2008 at 2:04 pm

    I only mentioned that because I thought it was fair to distinguish him from the clowns on the right who-literally-learned everything they know about military tactics from wargames, Tom Clancy and History Channel specials.

    I should qualify that. There’s nothing wrong with learning everything you know about military tactics from wargames, the History Channel and Tom Clancy. I mean, that and a few books is kinda how I know what I know. The thing is, I don’t as a result of such self-instruction now fancy myself to be some kind of tactical genius qualified to write 2,000 word long blog posts wherein I disguise my utter lack of any political common sense with lots of acronyms and references to the Wehrmacht.

  89. 89.

    Z

    August 15, 2008 at 2:08 pm

    Ok, let me get this straight… the neocons want war with Iraq (oil supplier), Iran (oil supplier), and Russia (oil supplier) in Georgia (site of important pipeline) while doing their level best to piss off Hugo Chavez in Venezuela (oil supplier). So basically, they are working really hard to destabilize world oil supplies, which would send prices through the roof (and consequently reduce demand from all but the US military, making alternatives to oil more economically viable). It is so very weird to me that these ex-liberals (which most of them are) are using bellicose, manly-man, hate-the-liberals rhetoric to indirectly achieve liberal environmental goals. Weird.

  90. 90.

    Brother Flaming Taser of Warm Reason

    August 15, 2008 at 2:12 pm

    Phoenix Woman Says:

    Did you catch how Gates is trying to simultaneously talk tough while walking back some of the sillier crapola emanating from Bush/McCain’s mouths?

    If nothing else, this makes an attack on Iran a lot less likely than it was a week ago, which means the world economy isn’t in immediate danger of collapse.

    Are you kidding me? Georgia shares a border with Iran. All they’d need to do is invade Iran, be greeted as liberators and then move forces over the border to Georgia. Think it sounds crazy? Then you haven’t been paying attention to these fucknuts.

  91. 91.

    ThymeZone

    August 15, 2008 at 2:17 pm

    In fairness to the voters, though, most politicians in both parties are committed

    Sorry, but you have it backwards. The politicians will follow the voters on this. As long as the voters line up to vote for the fearmongers and the warmongers, they will keep pandering to those voters. The voters have nobody but themselves to blame for the Iraq war, the Gulf war, the Vietnam war. If you think John McCain sang “bomb, bomb Iran” because he is stupid, you are quite wrong. He knows that the there is a bellicose foundation to the American electorate, and on the day that it turns on him, he will stop acting like that. Until then, he has no reason to.

  92. 92.

    b. hussein canuckistani

    August 15, 2008 at 2:45 pm

    You guys should be happy Tom Clancy never wrote about the Elludium Q38 Explosive Space Modulator, or these miltech fetishists would be filling up blog space with their bold new solution to global warming.

  93. 93.

    binzinerator

    August 15, 2008 at 2:46 pm

    What are the most realistic consequences of arming the Georgians? Let’s see.

    1. Russia gets really pissed off at us and the rekindles the Cold War. They may not be as strong as they once were but they could still cause us all sorts of problems.

    2. Russia gets really serious with Georgia really takes the fight to them. They begin indiscriminate high altitude bombing killing thousands of civilians.

    What’s the upside? Various right wing dunderheads can feel macho. Sounds awesome.

    One upside is the bushies get a chance to wrest another 4 years from enough of the evil/stupid/kneejerk patriot/frightened pantswetter segments of America, which in the past 2 elections has been shown to comprise 50%, give or take a few hundred thousand votes.

    In fact, the righties see no downsides at all to this. They want the cold war back, they always wanted the Cold War to go nuclear hot, and they don’t really give a fuck how many people get killed, they’re absolutely certain it will always be someone else.

    The people who point out the harm this would do to America just don’t realize they made the wrong assumption — that these guys would also be concerned. They aren’t. They don’t give a fuck about America, and never really did, because it’s not about America, it’s always been about them running America.

    When you want to build a throne to rule from you are not going to be concerned about how badly you might chip the hammer.

    This is really more like the viewpoint of the ruling class in the medieval age. A country is just a tool or a reservoir of resources to be ruthlessly leveraged to further their personal goals, which are often about gaining and maintaining power or enriching themselves, their families and their friends.

    In the Bushie era this is so common for goopers an acronym was coined for it: DWTFTW. But it’s really an old old thing, called feudalism.

  94. 94.

    Faux News

    August 15, 2008 at 2:58 pm

    Jay C: please don’t even bother feeding the Paul L. troll. Nowadays Paul L. will show up to a thread, fling his monkey feces on the thread, then disappear. Never to return to the thread. He is such a LOSER that he won’t even stay around for a fight. I believe the word is “coward”. Which matches perfectly with his Keyboard Kourage.

  95. 95.

    The Populist

    August 15, 2008 at 4:20 pm

    It’s like they think this is a game of paintball or a game with toy soldiers.

    I hope Americans see that these fucks do not give two shits about our soldiers. They just like watching war they way somebody is addicted to watching their favorite TV series.

  96. 96.

    cleek

    August 15, 2008 at 4:29 pm

    keyboard commandos armed and ready

    (NSFW)

  97. 97.

    binzinerator

    August 15, 2008 at 4:44 pm

    Plan 9 – Momma’s Basement Mix

    That’s a beaut. That should become as ubiquitous a shorthand for wingnut wankery as cheetos’n’mountain dew, or the 101st Chairborne or the Keyboard Kommandos.

    Usage: “Jeebus H. that wingnut site is fuckin’ waist deep in Plan 9 Momma’s Basement Mix.”

  98. 98.

    jake

    August 15, 2008 at 8:10 pm

    Are you kidding me? Georgia shares a border with Iran. All they’d need to do is invade Iran, be greeted as liberators and then move forces over the border to Georgia. Think it sounds crazy? Then you haven’t been paying attention to these fucknuts.

    Georgia doesn’t share a border with Iran, but I’m sure the countries in between have done something wrong (they share a border with Iran, don’t they?) so yipee ki yay & bombs away.

  99. 99.

    KevinD

    August 15, 2008 at 8:30 pm

    The War Nerds are out in force over this latest “war”, working themselves, ore parts of themselves, into a froth.
    It’s always “Red Dawn” with these geeks. What’s sad is Wonder Weapons aren’t going to help these Georgians, they’re already running away from 40 year old BMP-1s that can be blown up by a bottle of Pepsi and some Mentos.
    Maybe they need to ditch the US trainers and rent out some Hezbullah?

  100. 100.

    mannemalon

    August 15, 2008 at 11:52 pm

    Keith Says:

    My friends, the solution to the situation in Georgia is a Surge.

    LOL

  101. 101.

    jimmiraybob

    August 16, 2008 at 7:51 pm

    In a way, it’s strange that the neocons are so anti-Russian. You would think that with his repressive domestic policies and his agressive foreign policy, Putin would be the kind of leader the neocons would love.

    it’s the Walmart Doctrine: Eliminate the competition, seize the matket.

Comments are closed.

Trackbacks

  1. From Pine View Farm » Georgia on My Mind says:
    August 16, 2008 at 8:50 am

    […] I’ve been distracted by Real Life the last few days, but I do want to recommend John Cole’s take down of those who are mongering war with Russia: These people are simply insane. These lunatics are openly agitating for a war with Russia for… some shitty little inconsequential piece of land on Russia’s border. Imagine how the United States would react if someone decided to supply a hostile army in Mexico with advanced weaponry in the struggle over the breakaway Republic of Tijuana, and you get the idea. Not to mention, let’s revisit some basic facts . . . […]

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